LadyGang - LG QUICKIE: Sexy Mature Skin Tips For All!
Episode Date: November 7, 2024Our friends Danielle Gronich and Kayleigh Christina from Clearstem join us today to break down everything SKIN. From the hormones to the products, they help decide what you can do to make yo...ur skin glow and what you are doing wrong. Plus, they help us understand the laser that actually works, the precise layers we should apply to our skincare, and how beautiful skin actually starts on the inside. https://clearstem.com/ladygang Check out our amazing sponsors!!! Boll & Branch: Need better sheets? Get 25% off plus free shipping on your first set of sheets at BollAndBranch.com/ladygang LadyGang is sponsored by BetterHelp! Visit BetterHelp.com/ladygang to get 10% off your first month! Huggies: Get your baby’s butt into Huggies’ best fitting diaper! Huggies Little Movers. We got you, baby.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
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It's time for a quickie.
Podcast one presents the Lady Gang, the Hollywood girl posse with Lady Gang Quickie.
Here's Kelty Knight, Becca Tobin and Jack Vanek.
Let's make this quick.
Hello, hello, hello.
Welcome to Lady Gang Quickie.
I am Becca here with Jack and Kelty and two honorary Lady Gang members at this point.
They're part of the family.
Kelty, take it away.
Okay, so you guys know that we have Claire Stem on tour with us.
if you've been lucky enough to see us on tour, um, you have probably met Danielle and Kaylee,
maybe at some of the shows. Um, uh, you've seen clear stem out you we've talked about it. And
every single person that comes is getting a gift card so they can go and experience the products
themselves, which has been an absolute dream come true. But then the Facebook group and the
Instagram blew up because people were like, well, I live in Ohio or I'm in Wichita and I can't get
to a show, but I want to know why I have zits and I'm 36. And so we were like, you know what
the girls need, the girlies need to come from clear stem. They created this product. They have
so much background in this. Um, and we're going to go through literally all of your skin aging
questions. Um, but first I wanted to start Kaylee, what makes, I know these products are so special
because it's this anti-aging anti-poor product. Can you just talk about like what makes clear
different than everybody else? Yes. So we are the first brand to tell you that topicals don't
solve everything. That's really how we started. We only had one product to start with. It's our
Cell Renew Serum. It's amazing. It's our scar reversing serum. But since we only had one
product, we truly believed in our hearts that education should be first, especially for people
who are struggling with acne or seeing signs of accelerated aging. We're like, they're like,
whoa, this is too fast. So we wanted to create a brand that was so centered around education and
helping people feel seen and heard. So every single one of our products, they don't have any
pork clogging ingredients in them because pork cloggers is one of the number one causes of
external acne. There's internal root causes we'll probably chat about in questions, but number one
root cause of external is pork clogging ingredients. So none of Clearson's products have pork
clogging ingredients where we help with acne and aging at the same time. And most importantly,
through all of our education we help you get to the root cause of acne no matter your choice of
what you want to do we'll meet you there and actually help you clear your skin the brand has
like exploded i mean i can literally get an air one now which is mind-blowing you're like the
coolest girls on the planet um like why this now and why is this so important good question so why
now because literally everyone is struggling with acne or will struggle with it at some point it is
not just like a teenage issue people are women are getting it in their teens early 20s um you
know just because of the products they're using when they get off birth control in their mid to
late 20s their face explodes and it like restarts the cycle and then in your 30s your products are
still breaking you out and then in your 40s your hormones change and then you get menopause like
literally women have this whole like acne journey for like the first half of their life
and products are causing a lot of it and there's about 100 different pore clogging ingredients
they're these filler agents that every company uses both in skincare and in makeup and in
sunscreen. They're these filler agents that the average customer has no idea about. The average
dermatologist has no idea about them. It's not something that's trained on. So as acne specialists
and an esthetician, that is like my core focus. So basically ClearStem is completely free of all
pore clogging ingredients. And then we also put the anti-aging actives that you need in order to
age well, things like peptides, stem cells, growth factors, bakuchiol. So you don't have to choose
between clear skin and aging well. So it's like the sweet spot for everyone. But my question is
like, if everyone knows they're pore cloggers, why they put them in? They don't know, to be honest.
So most skincare brands start with, let's talk about the most common skincare brand. A private
equity company knows that the margins are very good in skincare. So they go to some, you know,
celebrity or someone and they're like hey you should start a skincare brand you have an audience
we can sell this they hire a cosmetic formulator they hire some marketing people and voila they
have a skincare brand like i said pore clogging ingredients are not well known to everyone they
literally don't know or they don't really care enough to formulate without them because these
are the cheap filler agents that make the margins really good things like ethyl hexyl palmitate and
isopropyl myristate um there's a lot of these things right and a lot of chemists like they
know about these ingredients, but they don't know that they're pore clogging. So they wind up in a
lot of products unless the people formulating are hardcore acne specialists or really, really no
ingredients to this degree. Okay. Let's get it. I love this. I'm such a nerd for this, you guys.
Look at our faces. We're like, yes, tell us. I've never focused longer in my life.
It's true. Becca's like laser. She's laser. Okay. The first question is, is acne hormonal
or environmental? Oh, it is both. So there's a lot of different triggers. We're taught to think
that acne is all hormones or all bacteria because those are the pharmaceuticals that exist in order
to manage acne, right? You know, so you go to the derm, you get put on birth control to manage your
hormones, quote manage, right? And then you get antibiotics. When those fail, then you get put on
other things like spironolactone, which is also, you know, adjusting your hormones to try to
control the acne. When those don't work, then you go to Accutane, right? And that's just like
basically blow torches your oil glands. So those are the only options that people are told that
they have. So they get put into this binary thing of like, okay, my acne is either bacteria or
hormonal or something like that. Hormones play a role in literally everything. But what we do in
our day-to-day life affects our hormones. If you're having a lot of sugar for breakfast,
call it that. Like say your breakfast is an acai bowl and granola, your hormones are going to be
impacted differently than if your breakfast is like some grass fed protein, you know,
in a matcha or something like that, right? Like if you are like what you have for breakfast controls
your hormones that day, essentially, like how you sleep affects your hormones, the vitamins you're
taking can spike your testosterone and create hormonal acne. So is it hormonal? Yes, it plays
a role. And some people do have hormonal issues like PCOS, but that's basically insulin resistance
and also tied to sugar. So the answer is it's complex, but it's not just hormonal. And yes,
you can do things about it. So how to layer skincare was a question that we got a lot
because people are like, well, I put on the thing that I think I'm supposed to put on and then it
flakes off or like, I don't know in what order to put things on. So if you're using ClearStem,
I actually even have a question because I have the three serums and I know the clarity is like
supposed to go on and then you sit, but then I'm like, can I use the other ones after? Like,
can you explain the layers of how you're supposed to layer?
Definitely. So Clarity is a corrective serum. It's a mandelic acid. So it's an alpha hydroxy.
And with any alpha hydroxy, you want to let it sit alone on your skin. It's an acid. So it's
eating away the stuff in your pores that you don't want there anymore. It's literally melting
the clogs in your pores. Just think of it that way. But it's not, it needs time to do that,
right? It's not a blowtorch. It needs to actually melt the stuff inside your pores. So we let it
sit alone for 10, 15 minutes. It can be longer, just hopefully not less because the moment you
put something else on, it neutralizes it. It raises the pH back up. So once you've done your
corrective AHA, which goes on bare skin, right? Think of it as eating it, whatever it touches.
You want it to eat away the bad stuff. So that's why it touches your bare skin. Then you layer
with whatever else you want. It's dealer's choice because after that, you're pretty much just going
to be moisturizing. So then you would just go thinnest to thickest. So if you have our Cell
Renew serum that would go on right after the clarity. And then you could layer it immediately
with like bounce back. And then you could do any other moisturizer you want. It could be a lotion.
It could be the golden hour, like the acne safe oil, like whatever your moisturizers are,
just layer thinnest to thickest after you do your corrective step.
Okay. But when I was doing my husband, I had the Hydraglow and I'm trying to get him into this,
like the moisturizer. When I was doing my husband, I put it on and then it kind of like flake,
it flaked off is that because the cleanser he's using probably has stuff that like doesn't
work together was it on his beard does he have any facial hair yeah okay it probably just got
worse i know yeah it just gets caught on the hair what you can do anyone with um well we should we
go downward motion when you're applying your lotion that's just a good practice for everyone
but men specifically you got to go in the direction of hair growth and then it'll kind
to make it to the skin. If you're rubbing it around or going in a circular motion or going up,
it just gets caught in all the hair. So I think that's what happened. Oh my God. That actually
makes so much sense because I was like, I use this exact same thing. Okay. What is retinol?
Retinol is a really common ingredient. It comes in a lot of different forms. It's a derivative
of vitamin A. There's a few different options. There's retinaldehyde, retinoic acid, and most
people know it in the form of like retin-a, tretinoin, adapalene, things like that. Basically,
it sends your skin into hyper exfoliation mode, which in theory, you know, it can be extremely
useful for acne. It can also create a really nasty purge for a lot of people. It also creates
unwanted sensitivity and it can give you unwanted UV damage because it sensitizes your skin. So it's
not for everyone. Everyone's going to go through a phase where they try it and you might love it.
You might not. It's really like, I think it's like 50-50. What we really try to educate people on
very gently is that the white cream version of Retin-A actually has a pore clogging filler
agent called isopropyl myristate. So that's not the best option if you're using it for acne.
If you're getting this prescription from your derm, at least get the gel version because it
won't have the pore clogger and you're more likely to see better results. So it really is a personal
choice if you want to use Retinol. A lot of people swear by it. It's just not for everyone and that's
Okay. And your product with the Bacuchiol in it, Bacuchiol is like the nature's version of retinol,
right? So it's like, for me, I can never do retinol. My face is scaly and so angry.
Same. And so this is such a good alternative for me because I know it's doing what Retin-A does,
but it's just gentler. Yes. And what we don't like about retinol is how it doesn't play nice
with any other products that can create so much beautiful change in your skin. So what a lot of
people aren't told is while you're on a retinol, you shouldn't be using any other acids like a
mandelic acid, a glycolic, any of that because it does not play nice. And it just accelerates
the sensitivity that someone may be struggling with with their skin. You can't do peels like
you can't do microneedling like your skin is just so sensitive. And so all these other tactics that
can create such beautiful change in your skin, you're really locked into one. So Becca, back to
and the sensitivity, same. I had tried retinol, my skin freaked out. It never went past that purge.
It never calmed down. And Bucuccio is my saving grace, which we have in our Hydro Glow Moisturizer.
So it's all the cellular benefits that you would want from retinol without any of the negative
side effects of sensitivity, irritation, sun sensitivity as well. And it plays nice with so
many other products. You can keep getting microneedling done. You can keep using mandelic
acid to help dissolve those clogs and you can do the positive work for your skin.
How long, okay. So how long can stuff last on a shelf? Like, you know, because this is the thing,
it's, it's becoming the end of the year. We're all doing our purge. I know that after they listen to
this, people are going to be like, okay, you know what? I got to get like, I saw these ladies. They
look amazing. I got to get my skincare on. I'm going to go, I'm going to get these three things
or four things that you recommend. And then they're going to go in their cabinet and they're
going to see all the other money they've spent over the years. And they're going to be like,
well, I spend so much money on this. I guess I should keep it. At what point is it time to like,
know that the bottle is rotten? I love this question. I don't think we've ever been asked
this before. Okay. Here's what you do. So separate everything into what's been opened
and what hasn't been opened everything that's been opened is already on its way out right so
um if it's opened and it's past the expiration date get rid of it just get rid of it okay it's
probably especially if it was exposed to air it's just it's it's degraded by then right so get rid
of that if it hasn't been opened but it's near its expiration or even maybe slightly past it
whatever i would say just use it on your legs your legs and your knees and your elbows and your arms
that way you don't waste it just do a little spa day for your kneecaps right nothing nothing bad
is going to happen if it's been sealed um if it is basically if you haven't opened it and it's
nearest expiration just go in order of like what's going to expire first but then with that you want
to make sure you're using what's right for your skin you don't want to be doing a ton of random
stuff because you could be canceling stuff out you could be overusing certain ingredients um and
Layering is so important.
So basically, we always tell people, do your exfoliation in the evening.
In the evening is when you would do like a scrub or a polish or something with a physical
exfoliant.
And then if you have acne specifically, you would want to follow immediately with your
acid.
And that could be mandelic.
It could be salicylic.
It could be something with a glycolic.
Anything with an AHA, you would follow like right after you scrub because it goes right
into your pore and creates the most change.
then you follow with your moisturizing stuff right and that can be anything with like your
your serums your lotions your oils whatever it is that's just hydrating slather it on especially
at night you want to look like that glazed dumb nut in the morning is when we just do gentle
cleanse like you can do a gentle cleanse in the morning or you can just splash off with cool water
a lot of women find that just splashing off with cool water is plenty in the morning that way
you're not over cleansing and stripping your barrier before you go out and you know you know
be in the sun. So in the morning, you just do a gentle cleanse to just get off whatever's
the residue from the night before, you know, your sweat and your products from the night before,
then you layer, hopefully nourishing things and or your vitamin C serum. So a lot of people use
vitamin C, you would do that on your bare skin. I do think you should let that sit alone for at
least five minutes. And then you can follow with like a serum, and then your mineral sunscreen,
you want to make sure your sunscreen is zinc or titanium based. That is how you protect all the
work you've been doing and all the money you've already spent. You want to protect that good work.
I have a question about the AHA. Sometimes it doesn't necessarily say it on the product,
but is that a product that they usually are saying, like, what is it, you know, where it's
like, this is the brightening, this is the exfoliating, like what does an AHA usually
advertise that it does? It depends. Good question. So salicylic is going to be, that's your, your
go to like acne that's actually a bha but it's in the same family of acids right so that's why
we're talking about it here so salicylic is what you get for like you know clean and clear your
clear salt like that's like you're like kind of like the teenage acne um treatment is salicylic
and it's still useful into adulthood but that is going to be usually marketed for acne then there
is glycolic acid which can be marketed for anti-aging you'll see this mostly in anti-aging
products where it's basically creating cell turnover so it's dissolving the surface layer
of skin and that sends a message to your down below to produce it with brand new fresh healthy
skin so that's the cell turnover process that's where you have that glowy youthful skin at the
top right um so that's what glycolic is mainly marketed for mandelic is like the hero for acne
it's also really good for anti-aging so it's kind of like the goldilocks of the acids where it's not
is irritating as like a glycolic, but it's much stronger than a salicylic. So you'll generally
see mandelic marketed for like blackheads and brightening and for fungal acne. Got it. Okay.
Okay. Kaylee, I go on Tik TOK. I see these girls and they're like, I can't believe you're not
buying the Trenton from Tik TOK shop. Everybody's got it on my Tik TOK shop. Like that's I'm in,
I'm in that like uh algorithm like what are your thoughts on that what's your thoughts on buying
skincare on tiktok shop firstly tretinoin is the retinol we were talking about before um okay I
didn't know that yeah I know yeah it has so many different names that's why so it's typically the
one of the prescription versions but you know how those there's some of those online companies where
you can get those prescriptions for things so I see tretinoin all the time from like a you get
like a 10 minute meeting with a doctor and they just write a prescription online for your Trenton
Owen. Okay. So I feel like TikTok is such a powerful thing at the same time.
It can be so negative for some people. So there's, we see so many comments on videos of people just
giving advice for what worked for them, linking it in a shop, putting down what other people say
work for them. And it can be this very angry place where people really stand behind what
works for them. They'll fight against people that it doesn't. We first want to remind people that
not everything is a one size fits all. And some people truly just don't struggle with skin issues
or they may be like 18 years old. They haven't hit a lot of different hormonal changes. Their
skin hasn't started to show the signs of aging quite yet. So they're in that stage of just trying
everything and anything. And maybe their skin just doesn't really change for things. So they
swear by it, right? It's like if they're just having a good looking skin day and they're using
this product, they're going to correlate with that product. So there's a lot of misinformation
that we see on TikTok and people that aren't coming from the lens of acne, the root causes
of acne. So it's funny because ClearStem is carried on TikTok shop because we got to meet
the people where they are so hell yeah right like because like any area of like where people shop
we want to be there to capitalize on that but I do think it's a little too easy to just throw a
product on TikTok shop um and anyone and anyone can just whip up something and get it on TikTok
shop and then people just start making videos about it and something I recently learned about
TikTok that I do feel like it's so important to know there is TikTok creators out there that
are not here to do necessarily good by the world. They're not here to educate.
They have found a hack to make a lot of money by reviewing products. And the only way you make
money by reviewing products is if it's positive, because how else do you make sales? So I've seen
this new era of salespeople that have just found what works. They're like, I can make anything
thing sell no matter what it is. It's like the new MLM.
Yeah. It's just, it's really sad. I, cause I, I got this, I know, sorry, this is a long story,
but I got this like backend software to TikTok that shows top creator, top sellers. And I went
through the videos and I was horrified at like the top sellers, what they make on TikTok and
what they're selling. It's not things that are doing better for this world. And I think everyone
listening just has to remember, TikTok has turned into a sales platform and there are sales people
on that platform that make their living from giving positive reviews, whether they believe
it or not, but positive reviews sell product and that's how they're making a living right now.
And so having people just have a little discretion, thinking for yourself when you're
watching videos, do your own research, feel free to discover things, but then just go do your own
research on it to make sure you're making a purchase that feels right for you the lady gang
okay last few questions is there anything that will actually tighten saggy skin now that i
am a elder millennial everyone you know it used to be we used to really focus on the acne and
lately everyone's kind of like like lift it so is there yes is there anything that like really
tight and saggy skin or is that just not a possible thing with like a skin care so my
favorite anti-aging hack is actually psychological yes yes think back to when okay everyone can do
this like think back to a time in your life you know hopefully maybe like 10 years ago or eight
years ago whatever like a meaningful amount of time ago where you remember that year so well
like i remember being 19 so clearly i remember what my day was like i remember where i worked
uh I remember who my boyfriend was like I remember that vibe so much and I tell myself every day I'm
19 I set my alarm to like 7 19 instead of 7 30 like I literally like weave it into my day
and like I just like I just tell myself I'm like not aging right so I noticed that people when they
start like looking at content for like older people and they get in the algorithm and they
start telling they they start saying like I'm getting old I'm older now I'm not a spring chicken
anymore, whatever they say, right? I feel like it accelerates aging on the frequency cellular level.
That said, you can also tag team it with stuff that works in the physical world. So for sagging
skin, if you're a candidate for it, microneedling with radiofrequency is really, really cool. Just
be really careful though, because if you use too much heat, you can actually cause more damage than
you were banking on. So I'm a fan of strong treatments that you're a fit for, but not going
as strong as possible. A lot of people think like, yeah, hit blast me, right? And you want to get
your bang for your buck and they just like crank it up. I don't recommend doing that ever because
that's when you can get accelerated aging, especially from high heat treatments. There
is something out there called softwave and oil therapy. It's kind of pricey, but it's like,
it works. I used to perform this when I worked at a med spa and it's basically like a non-invasive
lifting and it's like basically using pulses of heat that bypass the surface of the skin and go
like where your collagen is being made and it actually tightens and it works over time
I really love that treatment and almost everyone's a fit for it so it's called soft wave or old
therapy um Kaylee has done the the morphe the version of the morpheus that's a little more
gentle and she really liked that too yeah I did the virtue the virtue is the newest one and it's
not painful because i tried the secret which is very similar morpheus and it's like the most
painful thing in my entire life and i've gotten leg surgeries like and it was so painful but the
the virtue i because they can turn down the heat all the way so it's like a little bit of
radio frequency with the microneedling and i've noticed it creates such a beautiful
lifting fuller glowy effect without the pain of the other ones and within it's not intense
heat that's going to melt the fat of your skin which we want the fat of our skin
okay so everyone is getting a code code lady gang for 20 off on the website on clearstump.com
what are the three things right now that you believe you know i know it's a different for
every person but like if you're gonna go shop this at this moment what are the three things
that you believe are like the heroes that will change your life if you are currently struggling
with act if you're currently struggling with acne i would say mind body skin supplement
1000%. This is if you're struggling with acne, it tackles the key internal areas of the body
as it relates to acne. And it's life changing for people. A lot of people have made the choice to
get off prescriptions to do this and have seen incredible results. So for internally,
I got off spironolactone. Yes, yes. It saved my life. Same. I was on I did AccuChain three times,
my acne came right back because of all those pore clogging ingredients. And then I was on
spironolactone it made my hair fall out and it was just like it doesn't feel good to be on it
it has weird side effects mind body skin worked better than all of that yep same and then topically
i would say if you're concerned about wrinkles and overwhelmed just gracefully aging skin
our bounce back serum without a doubt has these beautiful peptides in it that tell your skin to
repair itself um our hydroglo moisturizer because moisturizers are the top product that products
that contain pore clogging ingredients like in the market so typically if you're struggling with
some acne or texture clogged pores most likely your moisturizer so it's a really great swap and
of course the bakuchiol that we love for anti-aging um and then danielle what would you say for the
third one for topical oh man choosing between all the children um okay everyone loves and will
benefit from skin spray all day oh my god the hypochlorous i have it right here and it's
it's perpetually almost empty because i freaking i'm gonna love it yeah you use this on bare skin
you can use it to set your makeup you use it throughout the day to restore your barrier
this when you guys came out okay let me tell you sorry i know we have to go but let me tell you a
quick story so you guys were coming on tour and every one of our VIPs was getting a product in
their VIP gift bag and we were like this is so amazing whatever and I'm obsessed with like the
pre-game mask I'm obsessed with clarity and I already had my favorite clear stem products and
you were like we're gonna do a skin spray a skin spray and I was like oh man a skin spray okay I
mean yeah that's great but it's probably like the thing that's not selling and whatever they want
to get rid of it like this is a real story I was like I was like yeah that's cool like I don't
think people are going to be that. It's not like that game. I've never had a face spray that like
changed my life. It's just seems like one of those things they upsell you on. Right. So then we
started using this, my makeup artist at E literally was like, Hey, can you do the thing you did to
your skin yesterday? Because she was like, there's something you're putting on your skin. There's
something that was on your skin. That's not on it today. And I was like, well, I was like tired
and whatever. And I was spraying the skin spray. She's like, you need to use it. I've used this
obsessively. This is probably my sixth bottle. I don't stop. Like what is, it isn't like a serum
that you can spray. I don't know what it is, but it is magical. I love that expression is serum.
You can spray it. It kind of is if you think about it in terms of ingredients. So there's a
lot of, there's a lot. Yes. Spray it girls. Spray it. Love it. Um, so there's a lot of skin sprays
out there. There's, you know, they're usually just a hydrating mist or there's the hypochlorous.
spray, which is great. Most of the hypochlorous sprays are very basic and they smell like pool
water and they are 99.5% water. This one has magnesium, which is calming, which everyone
benefits from and it's hydrating. And then it has peptides, which are like the proteins that help
your skin fix itself, right? So it stacks your barrier and helps your barrier all day. And then
it has milk thistle. It has a bunch of different herbs and it has blue light blocking antioxidants
in there so it really does a lot of different things and the peptides actually are what help
your skin and it also helps seal in your makeup so that's why it's like so different from everything
else out there it's the bomb okay sorry about that story but i just need to tell you it really is
and i know jack loves it too i love it and it's minty we we formulate for we optimize for joy of
use we want people to love everything that they're using every single time that's why it has that
minty cooling effect there's no fragrance in it but it has natural mintiness from the herbs so
But how's that cooling, refreshing, like pick you up in the middle of your day kind of, you know, experience?
Sure does, babe.
Sure does.
Okay.
If you guys need more info, you can go to clearstump.com.
There's so many questions there.
There's actually a quiz on the website that you can take that like will help you figure out your skin.
But you can also follow Danielle and Kaylee.
They are incredible.
Danielle is at Danielle the acne guru with a dot in between.
Just type in Danielle the.
Danielle the.
And Kaylee Christina.
Kaylee dot Christina.
these are the owners co-founders creators founders of clear stem they have been amazing partners to
us on tour and if you're coming on tour we still have shows in nashville atlanta phoenix and san
diego vip sold out so you can't get your skin spray in your bag but you can meet the girls in
person um you can ask them questions in person and everyone that comes is getting a 75 gift card
to shop so if you're thinking about coming and seeing us on tour make sure you go to the lady
gang.com.com slash tour to grab your ticket so you can get your gift card but if not go on to
clearstem.com use your code lady gang for 20 off right now ladies thanks for coming i know you're
so busy skin spray all day appreciate you love you guys love you guys congrats on your tour you
guys are hilarious i know thank you so much okay we will we weren't here for a long time we were
here for a good time good time lady gang is produced by podcast one with podcasting production
assistance from steve delameter derrick haley editing by jared monaco and social support from
Kali Carrera and Mastermind Evil Genius from Kelty Knight.
