LadyGang - The Death Episode: What to Say When There's Nothing to Say with Brad Wolfe

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

We did an episode about death. Stay with us, you're going to leave this one knowing exactly what to text a friend who's going through it, which is more than most of us have ever known. Brad Wolfe runs Reimagine, the largest end-of-life gatherings in the country, a quarter of a million people, and it started with him bringing a guitar into his friend Sara's hospital room. He told us why "let me know if there's anything I can do" never works, why you should take the question mark off your check-in text, and why the goal was never saying the perfect thing, it's showing up again after you've said the wrong one. Becca gets into the people who didn't show up to the funeral. We get into why year two is worse than year one, and why nobody warns you about that. Brad's music: @bradwolfemoon, he's playing live in Seattle on Keltie's book tour. Reimagine is free at letsreimagine.org, and their virtual summit is October 15.We have deals for YOU!K18: Start reversing hair age in 3 months! Shop at Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase at K18hair.com with code [LADYGANG]Hers: Ready to reach your goals? Visit ForHers.com slash ladygang to get personalized, affordable care that gets you.Arya: Want to spice things up in the bedroom? Get $10 off your first month at GetArya.com/ladygangNuna Baby: Visit NunaBaby.com or head to your local Nordstrom!Clean Simple Eats: Shop the best tasting protein powder at CleanSimpleEats.comProgressive: Trying to save on car insurance? Head to Progressive.com today!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Well, what is this? Welcome to the lady gang. That's amazing. Say that again. The lady gang. Things are about to change around here. Each week, we catch up with Hollywood's hottest girl posse. Keltie Knight, Becca Tobin, and Jack Vanek.

Hello, hello, hello, welcome to Lady Gang. I'm Becky Tobin and Jack Vanek tonight. You know, not saying that we always wear the same thing, Becca. But I'm wearing a black t-shirt and my glasses. But I got new glasses because you told me to go to work. You told me to go to Warby Parker because there's actually cute. These are not them. They haven't come yet.

But I got glasses that are very weird that no one will have. And so it's going to be great. I mean, Warby Parker is where it's at. I mean, you guys are wearing your Jeffrey Dahmer glasses today. We are. We are. Very serial color. I have my other ones.

I could switch. But you know what? That's fine. Whatever. It's what it is. Everyone will know me. I'm the one with one little bang. It's just trying to grow so badly.

Grow it out. Okay. We're ready. All right, well, it's time for... Good week. Yes, it is. Bad week. Oh, no.

Who would like to go first? I'll go. My good week is Jared and I are officially on a fitness journey together for maybe the first time in our entire lives. And by fitness journey, this is fitness light. You know, I'm not like a fitness girly. So it's like what that means to me. He's like very serious about it, getting into shape just to get into shape. I'm really trying to like prep my body for pregnancy so I don't have like a horrible pregnancy and a horrible delivery.

So I'm feeling really good about it. There's something about getting an aura ring that like I just want to impress it all the time and like really show up for it, you know, and like look on those steps. So I have been like literally walking all day every day. And then we're lifting weights together and it feels good. Wow. Okay. I'm just going to warn you something that's going to happen. I'm just for seeing this.

I'm going to do nothing when I get pregnant. No, no, no, no. You're going to be wonderful. You're going to be beautiful and stunning. It's going to be healthy. It's going to be great. But you are going to be getting, you're going to be growing a human. So you're going to be gaining some weight and not feeling your best.

And then Jared is going to come for the first time in his life with an eight-pack to the table. Yeah. It's going to really. This is a problem. Really piss you off. No, it's already happening. Well, because you know men, like, they can just like lose weight in the second. So he is already looking.

so good. I'm like, this is going to be great because you're going to be in the best shape of your life. Well, I will be in like a literal, like, I'm just a round blob. So I love that for us. I'm prepping myself mentally for this. Like I know I'm not going to like feel and look great. But I just, I've been reading so much about. You will look great. Well, thank you. You will. I've just been reading so much about pregnancy and just like working out correctly for your body to support the parts that are getting bigger. And I already have back problems. So I'm like, how do I not like become a moment? And I'm like, become immobile while I'm pregnant. So if anybody out there has good recommendations for like physical therapy people, I don't even know. I don't even know what I'm supposed to do.

Well, if you back issues, it's like core stuff. Yeah. So maybe like, but then you get pregnant and you can't really engage your core. So I don't know. That's a great call to action because I don't know what those do. And then I see some of these girls on TikTok that they're doing like full on workouts with like 30 pound weights. Not that I would ever have been that person to begin with, but I'm Like, this is crazy. Well, I think if you were doing it before, like, Isabella Boyton, who's, like, a principal ballerina, she, like, danced on point until she was giving birth, like, giving birth. But, like, she danced her whole life and then danced through her whole pregnancy.

Like, I think it would be super weird to, like, all of a sudden be like, I'm a gym shark. Yeah, I think you can kind of continue what you were doing before. Yeah. Except for, like, the heated thing. I know there were, I remember not being able to do, like, hot yoga, which really good. Yeah. Or, like, sauna. I know.

sauna so much. I'm like, I'll just be walking then. Because that's my workout of choice. I love it. A nice walk. Um, my bad week is, so I have been carless for the past year. My Jeep broke down last August. Oh, I didn't know this. I drive my parents second, because they, they have two cars. My mom and my dad have a car. So I've just been driving one of their cars around because we don't go anywhere now that we've moved down to Orange County. But I'm finally on the hunt for a new car. And why is every car one million dollars? Oh God. It's insane. Zillion dollars. I am blown the fuck away.

Now, I really wanted to get another Jeep because I love my Jeep, but it's like not the safest car to like start a family with. So I've been looking at other cars and everything is so expensive. And I don't buy a used car first of all. You're not buying new. Just as expensive. Even worse? Yep. It's crazy.

So I don't know. And then I want a boxy car. So it's like I have all of these requirements. and I can't find anything. But it's just I, everything. It's very Jack Vanick of you. I have all these requirements and I can't find anything is a T-shirt. I found the one that I love.

There's like an Alexis boxy car. But it's the one car that they're like, oh, it's going for $15,000 over MSRP because it's just so in demand. And they can just do that. They can just like have a bidding war for cars. I'm like, this shit's insane. Honda Civic, baby, Honda Civic. I guess so.

Here I go. I don't think the Honda Civic is going to be the best family car. No. It's a small sedan. You definitely want... I need a big car. Yeah, I would say an SUV is ideal just because of like the height of being able to put a kid in a car seat. Yeah.

No, I need an SUV. It's just being more convenient. Minivan. We'll see. I know. What if I get a minivan? Just really... People love them.

I know. They'll love them. All I wanted growing up was a wind star minivan. Of course. I wanted my parents so badly to get a wind star. I'm not really sure. I forget. There was like one feature of the car that was like the coolest thing.

The fake wood paneling on the side. Oh, was that one? That was my first car. Beautiful. That's where it's at. The red interior. Insane. I love it.

All right. Okay, I'll go. My good week is that I shenegled Matt Nathanson to host and play my San Francisco book tour date. Now, let me tell you something. The fact that he said yes and then he almost said no because he was like, well, it'll like compete. Like you can't, like he's going on a tour at some point. He's like, I can't play within the, you know, I was like, it's at a bookstore. I change it to a bookstore just so we could do it. But guys, Matt's going to read my book. And then he's going to know all my deep, dark secrets. And he's going to know everything about me.

and then he's going to moderate, which is like, first I was like, maybe just do music, but he's going to ask me all my deep questions. I just like, am I going to be okay? I don't think so. Jack, the last time I saw him was at the meet and greet that I paid for, even though we're kind of friends at his show during Lady Gang TV. I mean, I've seen shows, but I haven't seen him in person. And like, I could barely walk up to this man.

I love him so much. And am I going to look him in the eye and talk to him about, like, my drug use? I don't know. It's going to be wild. Anyway, I'm so excited. It's San Francisco. I'm just telling you guys now. It's December 4th. Please buy your tickets. It's $35. You get a ticket, a book with a ticket. But it's going to be me and Matt Nathanson. And then at the end, he's going to play three songs. And like, I get to choose the songs. Oh, wow. This is your dream. Oh, my God. I am going to die. Okay. Have you found somebody to do your L.A. show? Who's going to be your special guest? I have an offer out. And this offer, they want to know who else is doing it. Oh. Because they're a little bit fancy.

Who is it? I can't tell you right now. I can't wait to... So we'll see. If it works out, then they know the other people. But right now I'm like, it's my friend Christina and Matt Nathanson, and they're probably like, yeah, I'm good. But I'm going to ask Mark Cuban to do Dallas. So we'll see if he says yes.

Oh. Oh, I like that. Because he's got daughters. He's got daughters. I think it's cool. Anyway, he'll probably say no. Okay, my bad week is this. Do you guys remember last year when we got that laser hair removal thing, the device?

Lumia. So I've been using mine pretty like. I think it's an amazing device, but you have to use it all the time. And it's not laser hair removal where, like, you do it and then the hair never grows back. But I've gotten in the vibe of like, I just look down at my vagina or my legs and there's no new hair growing because I use it all the time. But then I got lazy and I stopped using it. And let me just tell you, I was getting ready for my life. And I lifted my arm above. There was four inch, but I had laser hair removal. So I don't get a lot of underarm. There was five, four-inch long underarm hairs living in both of my armpits.

I have been to Pilates with these armpit hairs. I've been to fittings. I've been out to events. I have been grown. No one told me. It's just disgusting. It's your hair growth stuff. It's all the things you're doing for your hair growth.

Of course. But like the fact that I didn't notice or like feel the need to shape my legs or my underarms and there was this like four inch long hairs growing on them. That's just like, that is how it happens though, because that happens in my lady parts region. There's none and then there's some. One. I'm like, how did this grow four inches in three days?

Because I didn't see this yesterday. Have you seen the clip and nobody wants this where Kristen Bell is in the bathtub? And she puts her arms up on the edge of the bathtub. And she has like a full, full, like not four hair. Like a full hairy armpit. Oh. Well, the kids are doing it these days, but she's older than us. Wait, like, was it part of the story or she just, oops.

No. No. People just like screenshoted it and then that was, yeah. Oh. That had to have been a choice. Because if you know that you're doing a scene in a bathtub and you're not shaving, like, from your scalp to your toes, then you're, you don't care. It's cool. But it's also, I don't think I have that kind of confidence.

I just get so itchy. Yeah. Okay, Rebecca. I'm trying to find this picture to really wow you. I'll come up with it. My bad week is that I'm sitting on the floor in Ford's room because I no longer have a space in my entire house that can be a podcast space. There's literally nowhere, nowhere in this entire house. Where'd you used to do it?

Myers' room? Okay, so, I mean, I've been through a real journey because we've switched around like musical rooms with these kids. This room that I'm in currently, Ford's room used to be the guest room, which was half podcast, half guest room. Then I moved into the new guest room. And that's not working out because there's not like a real, real door. So it's really not soundproof. And you can hear Barbara barking at the front door and all the things, and the lighting sucks. So I'm back in the old space that is now my kid's bedroom.

So I'm surrounded by toys and bullshit. So if we keep waiting and going, I might have to get one of those like Home Depot sheds in the backyard. You need a she shed. I know. I've been really like I've been really checking these things out. I think Texas might be a little warm for that. Oh, you can get some NAC unit in there. I've done many, much research on this because I wanted to get one for my art studio.

Really? And are you going to do it? No, I converted our little downstairs room and now it's a must. You need a Texas show. She shed. I know. I need a sponsor to come in and do this because, you know. Okay. Okay. So my good week is that I booked my first trip post-baby that has nothing to do with work. And I'm going to New York with three of my girlfriends, two of my girlfriends, maybe three. And we're all going to New York for two nights. And we're going to go see Kevin in his show. He's doing lucky work. And then maybe see one more show. I'm trying to

decide if anybody has seen anything. great in New York lately. Please tell me. And I'm really looking forward to it. It's really, it's in November. So I'm giving myself enough time to where hopefully Meyer's sleeping a little bit more than she currently is because right now we're at a zero. But I'm excited. That'll be so fun. Yeah. That's so fun. Rocky Horror fun. Yeah. Who's he playing? He plays, what's his face? Tim Curry's guy? Nope. The Frankenst, Frankenferter? It's literally lost my brain. The guy, the normal guy.

He loves the lady. Oh my God. People are screaming right now. I know. Screaming. Because also Corey played it in glee. Like he was Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad, Brad. Brad, Brad, Brad.

Okay. Yeah, so I'm excited. Fine. And it's getting cold and I can bring like my cute coats and like fall. Layers, baby. All right. Well, when we come back, we're going to talk about death. Yay.

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Today's episode of Lady Gang is about death. We almost didn't want to do it. Nobody wants to click on that. Not sure how the SEO on this episode will go. But we all know the fear. Definitely, we've talked about this a little bit on Lady. gang of like saying the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing to someone who's hurting or to your loved one and who's grieving. And by the end of this episode, our goal is to help you live your

best lady life. And by the end, you will know exactly what to text your friend. And that is the reason to keep listening. Our guest today has a master's from Stanford and an MBA from Berkeley. Yeah, he's that smart. He could be doing literally anything with his life. Instead, he runs the largest end-of-life gatherings in America. His nonprofit is called Reimagined. It started in 2016 as week-long festivals in San Francisco, Cleveland, and New York, and has since then grown to more than 4,000 gatherings and a quarter of a million people. Fast Company named it a world-changing idea, and it's not only about death anymore. It's about grief, illness, heartbreak, identity, and every part, hard part of being a person. He's also a folk musician, which you know how I feel

about you know how I feel about a singer-songwriter. So please welcome Brad Wolf from Brad Wolf and the Moon. And he's going to be playing some songs. This is very cool at the Seattle stop of my book tour because he made me my new favorite artist. So welcome Brad. Thanks so much for having me, y'all. Hi. Hello. That's so exciting, Colty. I know. I'm excited. We're going to see. How did you You guys connect with each other. I don't know the backstory. So I got this email and to my team and they were like, hey, have you heard of reimagined? What do you think? And as you know, we get these emails every single day of our lives of people. And I was just blown a way by Brad's story. It reminds me a little bit. I don't know if the emo kids will remember this. But Jack, do you remember to write love

on our arms and how Jamie Tirovsky, like, started his nonprofit, but it came from a place of, like, helping his friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brad has a similar story. So, Brad, talk us to that. Your friend was sick and you sort of started. Anyway, the reason Brad, sorry, one more thing. The reason Brad is doing his songs in Seattle and not San Francisco is because he literally

lives in San Francisco and I was like, well, unfortunately, Matt Nathanson is doing San Francisco. There's only one singer-songwriter above Brad and it's Matt Nathanson. So I was like, will you fly to Seattle? And he was like, yeah. So anyway, okay. So, Brad, how did reimagined start? Yeah, so, I mean, it did start with music, to your point. I mean, when I was in college, I was at Stanford, and I grew up in the Bay Area and had just told my friend Sarah, who I had known since I was a young person, but my feelings had grown more and more intensely for her and finally confided in her that I was in love with her.

and we were just starting to unpack that together when a week later she was received news that she had been diagnosed with a rare form of pediatric cancer in her pelvis. And so she was actually, she was a student on the East Coast, but flew back home and then became a patient at the Children's Hospital at Stanford for the next two years.

And, you know, nobody teaches you how to show up for grief and for facing mortality. But Sarah loved my music and thank God I had a guitar that I had co-opted from my sister when I was a kid and found that bringing my guitar to the hospital and play music for Sarah, just, you know, people talk about the power of creativity and art, but I was just so,

so amazed by what that really means in this context where her physical symptoms, really seemed to reduce. It could really bring a smile to her face and for us became a language, I feel like, to connect. I started writing a bunch of songs for her. And after two years, she ended up passing away.

And for me, you know, it was a language that was healing for Sarah, but it was also really healing for me. And I started thinking a lot about, you know, what other things in the world have this dual property that are both healing for others and healing for yourself at the same time. And that put me on this quest to eventually launch this nonprofit reimagined, which is about really how do we, how does anyone find their own music through the hard parts of life?

So you walk into a party and people are like, oh, this is my friend Brad. Oh, Brad, what do you do? And you're like, I run a nonprofit about death. How does that go over? Honestly, better than you might think. I feel like this episode could be good. You know, I think a big part about death and these other hard topics is that we're so isolated in thinking about them.

Though as human beings, we do think about it, you know, a lot, it turns out. I mean, when we leave our house and we say goodbye, to our family or our kids and we say, I love you. You know, it's like, why do we say I love you right when we're leaving? It's because somehow in the very back corner of our mind, we want people to know that if this is the last time we see them, that this is how we're ending the relationship. I think I've seen time and again that when the conversation gets opened up,

people are so fascinated and everyone wants to share their own story, and it turns out that our stories are so much more, though they're different, they are so much more similar than we think. And we're all hiding these things in our own mental closets. What do the retreats look like? Like what is the, I'm so curious. This is something I've never even thought existed. So the, so they actually were not retreats.

They were more like festivals that we were been hosting large-scale citywide festivals that took place in, so far in San Francisco, in New York, in L.A. And those festivals, which would bring tens of thousands of people together, would take place everywhere across a city. Everywhere a person might play or work or worship in black churches, in mosques, in temples, in health systems, in graveyards. But also in comedy clubs, in music venues,

in San Francisco, we took over the entire city hall where they bust older adults and millennials to dance together in city hall to aging, just all kinds of different ways people could gather and within that space's construct, open up dialogue around the things that we often push away. What would happen if, you know, our city made it available for us,

to come together around something that we all have in common. And so, yeah, we were doing these large-scale festivals prior to the pandemic and actually after the pandemic, but since the pandemic started, we've been now hosting these virtual festivals and summits. They're all free, by the way. Everything we've ever done is free. And the part about it is really, yes, it's about loss, but what we find is when we bring people together to talk about these things, you can really only talk about, yes,

there's a curiosity and a fascination with and a wonderment around death itself. But really, it moves quickly to love. And people are finding that focusing on the pain of loss actually brings up what matters most. And so it became a really amazing way and still does for people to connect in the most authentic ways, because we're not blocking off a part of ourself that, you know, in a lot of wellness spaces, it's just about wellness. But in these reimagined spaces, it's really about how does our wellness connect to our pain. And in fact, there's a pretty deep relationship between, yeah, our pain and our well-being. And how do we hold both of those together in a really healthy way?

That's really cool. If you go back to like, okay, so, I mean, I know this is not to throw Rebecca under the bus, but like we're at a year. We're almost at our anniversary of this big festival we did Lady World. And literally the week before Lady World, Becca's father-in-law, was put into hospice. And we, Jack and I were like,

there's so much pressure on us. This is the biggest thing we've ever done. And we're like, let us know if there's anything you can do. And when I knew you were coming on, I was like, well, I would hope that like we could teach our friends and listeners something of like, man, oh man, when someone you know is going through something and you know it's absolutely horrible for them. Becca's daughter just got out of the

NICU, and you're like, let us know if there's anything you can do. Like all of these things are horrible and you want to love them and you this, you're let us know if there's anything you do comes from a place of love, but it's like the most useless sentence. Like there's, you know, so like what what are some tips, things that you've learned about that you could put in your playbook for when the people you love are having these really hard things happen in their lives, like a terminal diagnosis. What do you even say? No, I mean, I'm, I'm not only do I do this work, but I'm going through that with people that I love right now. And it's, you know, even though I do this this work professionally, I would say, A, there's no, there's no magic bullet for what we can say.

The main, I mean, I have some ideas, but the main magic bullet is just keep showing up. Because, I mean, what prevents people, you know, we just did a large-scale national study and most, almost everybody wants to show up for people that they love, but the thing that prevents them from showing up isn't this care, but the number one thing is I don't know what to say. And I'm afraid I might say the wrong thing. And you know what? You may say the wrong thing. I mean, that's the first thing. You may say the wrong thing because we're all human, we're all fumbling, and things are received differently depending on the situation. So the first thing is just say, don't say nothing. I mean, don't say nothing. That is, that is, that is what prevents the connection from being there.

And that's what a lot of people default to is just saying nothing. Okay. But then you talked about this one phrase, you know, what can I, what was the phrase you said? Let me know if there's anything Let me know if there's anything you need. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, nobody responds to that because no one wants to put each other out. You know what I mean? You may need something, but you don't often know what you need. And you don't want to make it a burden on anybody else. No one wants to make it a burden on each other. And I think leading with that, say, you know, when you text somebody or call them, tell them you love them and there's no pressure for them to return your call or to get back to you, but you're going to keep following up with them. And if there's ever a time

where they want space, just let me know. But you don't expect anything in return, but you want them to know that you're there for them. I mean, honestly, that's the number one thing I think we can do. Then if you want to get into practical things, you know, depending on the situation you're in, you can make a meal. You can drop something off whether or not people, people end up utilizing your kindness, that's kind of a different matter, but it's really about showing that you care. That's the number one thing. It's like when people feel that they're cared for, it does make, it does make the situation better for everybody. And yeah, so I don't know. I mean, it's hard because we all do fumble. And that's why also like self-compassion in these moments is so important

because you are going to say something if you're with somebody that's going through something like that that isn't going to land in the way that you hope. But how do you not have that thing when it lands that way prevent you from continuing to show up moving forward? Yeah. It's so interesting that you said, I say this all the time,

where it's such a difference between sending checking in, how are you doing as opposed to I'm just sending you love and I am here and I'll continue to check in and please do not respond like or like you don't need to respond to this. Like it's should go without saying that you don't need to respond to this because you're going through a hellish experience. But having somebody received that that's going through that hellish experience and giving them the permission to not have to then take care of your feelings or fill you in on what's going on if they just don't have the capacity to do so. And it is. It's such an innocent thing that people do and they don't know that that could make a big difference, but just simply turning it, not making it

a question and requiring an answer from somebody right away is so important. You taught me that, Becca, and like a while ago when we had had this conversation before and it's such a good lesson for people. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's, and it sounds like such a, you know, you feel like kind of a dick when you give that advice because you're like, well, everyone's intentions are just good. They're just checking in to see how everything's going. But, and nobody thinks you're a dick for doing it. It's just if you want to relieve some sort of pressure from the person that's going through something, it's just a nice thing to do in my experience. And everyone's different.

You don't want them to have to tend to your feelings as well. I mean, that's why you have to be resilience. And that's where the self-compassion comes in because it can hurt your feelings, depending on a response. But you just have to keep showing up and know that, you know, yeah, the other person doesn't text back. Yeah. that's that's totally okay that doesn't mean they received it poorly they may have received it in a beautiful way but you just have to keep letting that love love shine forward without that expectation yeah what are your thoughts on listen you know when friends or whoever has been

in my life have you know oh i you know i have big diagnosed with breast cancer or whatever then i go into like fight mode where i'm like we're going to get through this you're going to be okay. But what I thought was interesting about your work, Brad, was that you talk a lot about terminal diagnosis. So like when, because anyone that like, you know, when your friend is like has something, you're like, we're going to fight it, you're going to be okay. Think positive. Like all that shit. But like when someone gets like, this is terminal, you have a year to live. What are your thoughts on how to support someone through that? Like, they're obviously terrified. Nobody wants to wake up and die. Like, what do you, what do you do? What do you see? What do you see?

in your work. I mean, just abstractly, you know, we're all going to die. So it's like we're all, we're all terminal, whether there's a, there's a number on our finitude or not. So it's like, we're still alive and people want to live their life as fully as possible all the way through their life and whatever, whatever way is available to them at the time. I mean, a lot of what I think comes down to, to, to that care and celebration. And just a reminder, given that we're all terminal in this way, it's like, can we start celebrating the people that we love now? So people know.

So those people already know. I mean, I think it's a wake-up call, like what you're saying right now. It's a wake-up call to people. It's like, you know, likely someone will have a terminal diagnosis at some point. And it's like, do they know, have you celebrated them? Have you honored their spirit? I think, you know, they're not, since since they're not, they're still with us, I think the same principles apply. But then you talk about this language, right, about fighting. And I think that

there, that's a delicate balance, right? Because people want to have the strength and people want to have the strength and feel like they have the resilience to, to, unless, you know, sometimes it's not a terminal diagnosis, but it could, but it could be terminal. And it's like they themselves see it through that metaphor as fighting. And then you can support their, you know, let them take the lead in terms of, if that's a metaphor that works for them, you don't have to, even though that we know

or that we've learned that fighting for many people may not be the right metaphor for what people are going through, that it might be more about finding ease within the current situation that you're in and accepting the situation that you're in, not everyone's there. And so take the lead of the person that is going through the experience

if you're close enough to them to learn. I think the curiosity is a big thing if you can have them speak to you without putting them on the spot. There's a lot to navigate. But I think, again, just, it's just showing up, but then if you can find ways to integrate celebration

and they know that there's a way in your life that you can honor them in how you live, that they've impacted you in a way that you are going to live forward in your life, I mean, that's at any point in our life, that's really the best gift. If they see that they've imprinted on you something about who they are and you, even now, can start living that forward, that's not a morbid idea. That's something we should be doing all the time. So just last week, I was with my nutritionist, Elizabeth, and she was yelling at me and babe, perimenopause, you got to lift heavy weights and you need more protein every single day.

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Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Co., affiliates, and other insurers, not available in all states. You're listening to The Lady Gang. I have a question about, sorry, this is the saddest. It's really hard conversation, but I'm really enjoying it. What about people that are really alone? And I think that's part of what you do with reimagined. You know, like it's so wonderful to think when you're going through this that like your

group of friends like bounds around you and all of these people show up for you and are making dropping off castoroles. But like what I found in life and even within our lady gang community is like not everyone has this friend group. Like you've moved cities. You're quite alone. Maybe you just had your family. And, you know, I think about like even my brother in ways like dealing with.

what he deals with, like, there's no friend showing up with a casserole for him. You know, it's like, it's only us. And so is reimagined something where you could find that community or where can people find, like, you just like search like grieving other sad souls community? Like, yeah, like, what do you, what do you think about that? No, I mean, ream, I mean, I think a lot of things about that, first of all. But reimagined is a place where people can go and not be alone. We have groups that connect people across different types of experiences, but not just the pain

of the experience. And so it's not morose, but often what in what way do I, in what ways is there still possibility depending on and despite what I have, maybe even because of what I'm going through, it might point to new possibilities for myself. And that's a lot of what this is about. it's about what's available to me and what are my dreams now and helping people move toward their dreams

and every time we go through a rupture whether it's a diagnosis, a breakup, you know, there's something that's ruptured inside of us, but there's also a chance to reorient our life towards something that repairs that rupture or moves that rupture forward in a new way. And it's like,

how do we tie that new thing to our pain? And so, you know, for someone like your brother, you don't necessarily need an army of people around you to feel supported. There's a huge difference between zero and one. That's the biggest difference. And we see that in the data. A quarter of people in our country only have one person, they say, truly understands what they've gone through in terms of something significant like a loss. A lot of people have nobody. And that's the saddest.

You know, having nobody, that zero, that creates a massive burden. And, you know, that's also where reimagined can help because you can meet strangers. But in our own life, being able to have this kind of what we call wise witnesses, someone to show up for you with empathy and kind of broad empathy and not disappear for you, just that one person can literally make the biggest day. difference. I mean, even I know, like, when Sarah was sick, I was, my first experience going through something like that, but it was, I was shocked at how many people were close to her that, you know, quote unquote, dropped out of showing up. I know, that's so crazy, right? Becca just went like this.

Oh, my God. She just nodded her head. Like, people just don't have the strength or they just, like you said, Brad, they don't know what to say, so they say nothing. And then that's worse. And also it's like because nobody teaches us how to say goodbye, you know, think about just goodbye at a party and the number of ways that people say goodbye or don't say goodbye. Or bail. Yeah, exactly. And so it's like it's kind of the same thing in so far as nobody knows what to do. You don't know what, I mean, what this works taught me more than anything is beneath the surface in any individual, people are holding so much. and you don't know what they're holding. So it's like it's really easy also to judge the people who don't show up, but you don't know, you know, what kind of losses they've had that have been unrepaired,

that have made it really hard for them to be there, what's emotionally accessible to them. Because, yeah, again, we're not, there's no resourcing around, around how to be there in these moments. So if you're somebody that can show, show up, you know, and do that without judgment for yourself or anybody else and you just keep doing that, that is, that is so much. That is, that is literally everything. And so, yeah, I think not everyone needs a casserole. You know, this whole thing, that reminds me of someone close to

me passed away in 2014. And it was somebody that there were people that didn't show up to the funeral who lived in the city that we lived in, who loved me so much and loved this person so much. And didn't come, which I found out through, you know, later through friends or friends, it's like, they're just don't do funerals. They're too hard for these people. And I'm like, you know who it's hard for the person who died, but whatever. So like, I had a long, a long road of not understanding the simplest, I think, to me, gesture of like showing you wanted to honor this person and you wanted to show support to the people left behind. But and then it took my husband's father passing away and seeing that something similar happened with some people in our

lives. And I'm like, okay, adult Becca now sees that these people aren't just selfish pricks. They have something inside of them that I don't know what that is, what hurdle that is that they have to get over, but I know that their intention is to support and love us. But there is something so much bigger under the surface prohibiting them from doing something that in my eyes is like a non-negotiable. But it did actually make me see that we all process in such different ways and we all have hurdles we can sometimes not get over. And it's just fascinating. It's like you think every everybody's going to take on the same feelings and, like, go through the same thing. Similar ways.

Like it's a universal feeling, but it is so not. I mean, in good news, you know, you do get to choose your friends. And so, you know, it is surprising when you see values and people that you care about that are not aligned with the values that you think that they hold or the values that you hold that you assumed were there the entire time. And it might not, as I mentioned, it might not because of a value. It might be because something is just too big. And, and, you know, for you and for, for, you know, for people that we hope, we hope everyone can show up. Yeah. And you want them to be able to show up for you. I mean, that's kind of part of friendship, too, right? It's like, it's like, it is reciprocal.

And so it's painful when, when you're there showing up and somebody else doesn't show up. Yeah. That, that hurts. And it's understandable why you'd, want to, you know, you consider recalibrating in those, in those moments. It's just an invitation. I think what you'd experience is just an invitation to consider how you want to proceed. Because it hurts also to cut people out of your life after something like that and to say, you know, oh man, they didn't show up. So now, now they're dead to me. Yeah. That also causes a lot of grief. And so it's like, what do you, So there's different opportunities.

It's like one way of explaining it away and helping yourself move forward is to recognize the lack of education and the lack of support and people's own backstories that we may not be privy to. But yet, that's not to say you don't want people in your life that you know you can count on to be there for you when things get really hard. No matter how uncomfortable it is for them. Well, that's the thing is some people I look at it as like, I guess you weren't raised right. You know, it's like, I don't know. I mean, I guess we're all adults now and like you raised yourself at a certain point. But I'm like, are you that scared of facing death yourself?

I think a lot of people, that is a piece of it. They're really afraid of facing mortality, which is a bummer because we all have to at a certain point in time. But I think what your festivals are also doing is making that whole thing. It's like everybody talks about how in our country we really don't talk about death enough. And I think it's so true. And it's bringing it to the surface and showing that there's, so much love and grief. There's so much connection, can be so much connection and grief and the loss of somebody that you love. And I think what you're doing is pretty incredible because

it gives other people the ability to be like, okay, this isn't this like big, scary Voldemort in every room? Like it's something we can face. It's something we can see. It's something we can approach. And maybe it's a little less scary for people to face mortality when there are big conversations and big events happening around the whole thing that we're so afraid of. Yeah. No, I think opening up, I think there's two parts to it. I really appreciate that. A is like turning towards it and being able to to turn towards what's hard and open up this dialogue. That's the first piece of what I think as a culture we need to do. The next piece is being able to channel that pain into new forms that that bring more. care into the world because I think another big myth that I feel that I'm kind of on a crusade to dissuade people around is that people say there's no wrong way to to grieve or there's no wrong emotion and I think that's a that's a beautiful sentiment to help us hold space for our

emotions but at the same time throughout history we see over and over again how grief and pain is channeled into more suffering. And part of that can happen from just keeping it in. I mean, trying to keep it in, it eats us up from the inside. But then people let it out in our family systems, in our relationships, where we're hurtful to one another through our pain. And that's not good either. I mean, wars are started for the cycles of trauma repeat and repeat

because people are channeling their pain in unhealthy ways and don't know how to have the bravery to get to that other side. And what that side looks like is, I think, channeling that pain into another form, into often into service, into kindness, into small actions in our world, into creativity,

into repairing something that we may not even think of as repair. It might be, you know, reimagined there's a war and people are meeting their neighbors on account of it. It's like instead of yelling about it on Twitter, it's like can we actually meet a neighbor and realize the impetus for that was the pain. There's ways we can take that pain,

whether it's making art or music. But that's the next piece I feel like that we're really trying to work on is helping people transmute those experiences without judgment into some new forms that honor that experience, but in ways that deal with that energy that emerges from our pain in ways that lift ourselves up.

It's funny. In grief, I feel like sometimes it felt like AA. So it's like you have your sponsor. And when something terrible, when I experienced immense loss, there's somebody who had just experienced it the year before, a very similar situation. And she kind of swooped in and came on and took me on as like this person, she's going to kind of shepherd me through this first year of,

of grief. And then, you know, a year or two later, I found myself doing the same thing for another person who had experienced similar loss. And I, that purpose, like you're saying, it's like, I don't know for everybody to will look different because I know some people can be very triggered by that and can kind of be brought back into their experience and trauma by experiencing it new with someone else. But like just seeing that sometimes that is your purpose and that is the thing that like you're you're putting something positive out into the world on the heels of something really tragic. And so I love seeing and that's kind of what you're doing on a very large scale. It's, you know, it's Amanda Kluz just started her podcast about grief. And it's like,

that's her also putting her heart, you know, heartbreak and turning it around into something that is productive. And it doesn't always look that beautiful and wrapped up in a beautiful bow, but it's huge. It's so huge. And it's like, I think in your suffering when you are experiencing something so terrible, you have that grace period of turning inward and being very selfish, which you need to be and all the things. But I think it's also very important at a certain point to, okay, I'm going to open up my arms to somebody else and like, and make this a positive experience for somebody. For sure. I mean, honestly, so Amanda was on our, it was participated in with some of our reimagined experiences around mother's,

kind of a Mother's Day experience that we hosted. And I've seen her journey. And the idea that people are able to take their pain, whether it's creating a podcast out of it, whether it's writing a song, you know, the research, and this is what reimagines based on, is a lot of research on what's known as post-traumatic growth.

It's how do we, what separates people that have the same experience? Mm. And yet one person is able, to move through it in ways that are generative, that bring them to a new place, where somebody else stays stuck, depressed. You know, why does that happen? And, you know, my grandparents were Auschwitz survivors, and that's what got me thinking about this on kind of like a human, a bigger human level is how can people integrate so much suffering into their life and still

have a life. And the research is really talks about acts of service in the area of our pain is one of the surest fire ways to to heal.

And so what is an act of service? It doesn't have to be volunteering at, you know, it can be telling your story. And I think that's a big part of it because it demystifies that growth process.

When it's seen as a tidy bow, when it's like, oh, look, I made a, I just made a podcast and it's like, you know. Now I'm done. I'm healed. Yeah. That may send a different message, but understanding the arc of somebody's journey and to

see that that arc has ups and downs and peaks and valleys and is an ongoing process and that integration of our pain isn't something that, like at hospice, it's like there's a 13-month mandate for grief support. Our funerals are like a couple weeks after. It's like both of those things, it's like these are demarcations where it says, our death losses are kind of like ready to move on, but these losses stay with us for the rest of our life and can shape us in an ongoing way.

I mean, what we're doing now is we've built a social media platform that we're working on that's really about showcasing that narrative over time. So it demystifies the journey. We don't just see that end output, but we see how people actually, the stories of what actually happens on that journey and recognizing that our stories are gifts,

it does create that same virtuous cycle that you experienced with the people that you cared about, Becca. And I think that is so beautiful. I mean, that's what we're all doing. And I would imagine those relationships, you know, they're amazing. Yeah, trauma bonds. I'm just kidding. No, it is.

I want to... Sorry, I'm sorry I heard that. No, I just one more. Sorry, I'm like totally monopolizing your interview, Kelty. But I actually am so glad that you're telling those stories and you're finding ways to show people what it looks like. Because if you don't have somebody super close to you that is going through something like that, you really don't get an inside look. And so you just see the light. I think that even for myself, I assumed that you graduate your year mark of the loss of somebody.

It's like, you made it the year and like, yay, we're moving on next year. is going to be even easier. And then I realized going through it, I was like, actually, year two sucks because everybody has moved on. And you're like, wait, this was not a graduation I was ready for. Like, yeah, I made it a year, but what does that even mean? It's just the, and that to see people going through that and to understand that there's a no shame and being worse off the second year.

And there's also the ability for people who love you to know that sometimes that second year is so much worse. And like holidays. Or the 30 year. Or the third year, yeah. Listen, I have meltdowns five years, six years, whatever. It's like it's not a linear experience. And so, you know, and just certain things like holidays for the rest of your life.

Like, I mean, you may never feel the same way about Christmas for the rest of your life if this person that you love so much is gone. And for other people to know that like this cheery, happy holiday is also a reminder to so many people of people that they are missing. And just showing, I love that you're telling this. stories. I don't think that we've had that opportunity to get a peek in as a society. Yeah. No, thanks. I think what you're saying is like what, you know, it does, grief has a way of revealing what matters. And so if you just, you know, it doesn't have to be love. People, you know,

people say, oh, grief is love. It's not always love. There are people have complicated relationships. But there are some things about those feelings that we realize there's something that matters there. and to be able to remind yourself of somebody you love at the holidays that's painful but it's also something kind of beautiful about about thinking about that person on the holidays and we don't have to you don't have to get over it ever you know I mean I mean these people I mean it's been 20 years now since Sarah died and I've had many losses subsequently but I she's still like super close to my my heart I go every year to her her her grave and release butterflies at her rave and and I'm married now with a daughter and it's like the journey continues

of of honoring and and living out the values of the people that we care about and just on a personal I found I found so much healing and beauty and happiness in that well we could talk about this forever Brad you're amazing and what beautiful work obviously, you know, much needed. And if you guys are touched by Brad, you can obviously come and hear him sing his lovely, wonderful songs in Seattle. But if you want to check out Brad's Instagram and then the music, it is at Brad Wolf Moon and both things are there.

And then if any part of this conversation, you're like, oh, my God, I want to get involved or I want to connect with other people. this is exactly what I've been looking for. The website is let's reimagine.org. Let's reimagine.org and we will link to it. And Brad, thank you so much for your time and for all your amazing work. I had 900 more questions, so maybe you'll have to come back on at some point. But thank you for making something horrible, beautiful.

I mean, thank you so much. It feels like this podcast is a space where you're opening up dialogue on real things. And so, you know, that's why people listen, right? It's when we can model stories and we can see what life is really like and kind of remove that veneer. We feel more connected. And so if we can keep doing that over and over again and, you know, keep tuning into what you're doing, I think that's healing for a lot of people.

Sometimes we're talking about our crush on Garrett Graham on off campus and sometimes we're talking about death. And that is the range of womenhood. That is the world. Thank you so much to Brad Wolf. Check out the music. It's really good. You guys will love it. And we will see you next to you. Seems weird to say that now. Lady Gang is hosted and produced by Kelty Knight, Beckettobin and Jack Vanek with social media support from Callie Carrera, audio and video editing from Jared Monaco, and additional support from Steve Delameter and podcast one. Lady Gang, it's Kelty. I would love to see you on my book tour this fall. It's going to be a really cool, intimate chat. I'm going to do.

Celebrity moderators, music in some cities. I'm going to do a little self-help talk. And then we're going to do a personal emotive writing session. I just think it's going to be really special. If you've come to a lady gang show before, it's probably going to be a little less chaotic, a little more like getting yourself together before the new year. Tickets are 35 bucks and they include a signed copy of my new book,

The FM Theory. I'm hitting Atlanta, Washington, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, New York City, Toronto, Canada, Seattle, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Austin, and Dallas. And I would love to see you. Tickets are available now at FM Booker. It's 35 bucks. Come out and see me for the night. It would really mean a lot to me to see some of my lady gang girls there. FMbook.com and I'll see you there, lady gang.