LadyGang - The Price We Pay to be "Good" women with Elise Loehnen

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Are you stuck in the good girl trap? Our guest today is the author of "On Our Best Behavior- The Seven Deadly Sins and The Price Women Pay to be Good" for a frank discussion on Envy, Sloth, and our crime of putting others' needs ahead of our own. Plus, is Keltie's RBF still ruining her life? Why are all the birds dead? Which one of us is going to see Taylor in LONDON!!!! Check out our amazing sponsors!!! Nutrafol: Got thinning hair? Get $10 off your first month’s subscription and free shipping at Nutrafol.com and use code LGPOD OneSkin: Want younger looking skin? Get started today with 15% off using code "Lady" at OneSkin.co - Tell them LadyGang sent you! Hiya Health: Need a children's vitamin? Get 50% off your first order at HiyaHealth.com/lady  Skims: Shop the SKIMS Soft Lounge Collection at SKIMS.com - Tell them LadyGang sent you! Progressive: Quote your car insurance at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive! Huggies: Get your baby’s butt into Huggies’ best fitting diaper! Huggies Little Movers. We got you, baby.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Lady Gang Tour is officially like 2.5 weeks away and today in our newsletter, if you got it, our official dress code was revealed. We are going to reveal more, but you want to go on to the Lady Gang site and sign up for the newsletter so you can stay up to date on all things Lady Gang. But that is right. We are doing sparkles, tiaras, prom, over the top, good stuff. I want you to wear your bridesmaid's dresses you only got to wear once, your wedding dress that you only got to wear once or twice or three times. I want to see the sparkles and the feathers and the tiaras and the glitter eye makeup and the glitter boots and the glitter shoes and the feather boas. And we are so freaking excited to see you on tour. Tickets are selling right now for our first two dates, Austin and Dallas, which we're so excited about coming to in August. And tickets are available at theladygang.com slash tour.

Unfortunately, VIP is already sold out in both of those cities, but we have a few GA tickets left, and every GA girl is getting some real, real cool freebies for their ticket. So it's going to be so worth it. Come alone, come with a group. Just come and see us and hug us and love us, and we're so excited to see you and get dressed up with you. Tickets are available at theladygang.com slash tour.

Let us know where you're coming. This episode of Lady Gang is brought to you by Huggy's Little Movers. Get your baby's butt into Huggy's best-fitting diaper. Huggy's Little Movers. We got you, baby. Well, what is this? Welcome to the Lady Gang. That's amazing.

Say that again. The Lady Gang. Things are about to change around here. Each week, we catch up with Hollywood's hottest girl posse, Kelty Knight, Becca Tobin, and Jack Vanek. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to the Lady Gang. I am Becca Tobin here with Jack Vanek and Kelty Knight.

Wow, I can't form words, so it's a good thing I'm a podcaster, guys. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's a good thing. I'm so happy to see you guys. Guys, guess what? I got my roots colored.

I feel like you get your hair done like every two weeks. Do you know what? I haven't got my hair done in like six months. I had so many grays and I went in and I tried to be like, it's not that bad. And then she opened up my head and like around like where your space buns would be, she was like, oh. Oh, no. That's where a lot of the gray.

Really? Yeah. Oh, I wonder why. That's such a weird spot for it to start. But life is so different since I got my water softener. Like, it's game changer. Jack, next time you come over, you have to shower at my house. Your hair will be so shiny.

Really? But it's not, like, soft. I hate soft water. It gives me the heebie-jeebies. I know, but it's soft. It feels slimy. It's slimy. I go to bed at night, and I'm like, I didn't even put lotion on.

I love it. No, it feels like you have conditioner all over your body when you get out of the shower. What city do you find when you travel that you're the ugliest, right? No, New York, I'm the prettiest. Oh, I'm the ugliest person in New York for whatever reason. It's the soft water? I guess. My hair looks so bad.

My skin always looks so bad. I'm like, I don't know. It's very strange. And it's like when you want to look the best. Exactly. Yeah. You know where I really thrive is Florida. Florida.

The humidity. Remember when we were in Florida and my makeup wouldn't stick to my face? It kept like peeling off. I guess when I'm in Florida, I'm not wearing makeup. So that's, it's a great no makeup place. Yeah, very glowy, very glowy. It's going to be spray tan and lip balm for us. Yes.

Yeah, that's right. And then eyelash curl. Okay. It is time for... Good week. Yes, it is. Bad week. Oh no.

I think that this is a very appropriate good week, bad week for our guests today. Okay. because we touch on a lot of female envy and the shame that we feel around it and how judgmental we are of other women at times. And anyways, this is going to blow the lid off of the lady gang and hopefully not my social media because I hope people are gentle with me. Okay. I'm going somewhere in August. I am going across the pond in August to see one Taylor Swift in concert. No, you're not. No, you're not. Shut up. I'm so happy for you. Are you, are you by yourself? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, that would be so insane. Um,

not, not for anybody to go by themselves, but for me personally, because you guys know my history of my feelings about Taylor Swift. Um, okay. So my sister, um, she won some sort of lottery for tickets and her city that she won was London. And so she wanted to, my, my niece is obsessed. Yeah. No, you tried to get tickets for her before. Yes. And I tried, I emailed so many shameless, shameless emails and my sister got these tickets and then she got four tickets and she was going to go with another, with a neighbor and her daughter. But then she started pricing everything out and it was like you know to go to london to pay for the tickets because you don't win the tickets i think you win the ability to buy the ticket or whatever so insane

oh my god congrats so the exact same thing's happening with the lady that'll be a thousand dollars you owe us twelve hundred dollars it's like getting a birkin like congratulations you're allowed to buy a ten thousand dollar purse it's literally getting a birkin that's so insane so anyways she priced it out and and she's you know she she sends one kid to private school she's you know whatever it doesn't need to be justified but she's like i am an idiot to spend this much money and we already were criticizing all the people spending you know the rich moms spending thousands of dollars to like send their kids on party buses i'm like what is that precedent you're setting you know like but again me being judgmental it's none of my business but my sister just felt like i can't

in good faith, like spend this money. So she was talking to my mom and she was telling my mom about it. And my mom was like, Hey, this is why grandparents exist. This is why I've worked really hard and I have retirement. And I, you know, she's like, I'm taking you and Quinn to London. And then she said, do you think Becca would want to go? So, cause it's four tickets. So my mom is giving us an all-expense-paid trip. Shut up. Yes. What the –

I know. And so – and London was the first international trip that my sister and I took as kids also. So I have such crazy memories of like going to Westminster Abbey and being like weirdly obsessed with dead bodies in the walls. Like it was just – I remember that trip more than any trip of my life and so does my sister. So we are going. So that is my good week. My bad week is this. what are you gonna wear well that's another whole nother thing are you gonna wear a sequin

no i think that i'm gonna do um because reputation era all black i was thinking all black and a red lip yeah that's cute and or if my niece wants to dictate i'm willing to go in the direction i'm sure she's gonna want to do like lover wasn't your lover that's like pink like cotton candy yeah so anyways we'll have to pick our out our outfits or whatever but um that's my good week but my bad week is that like, now I have to, like, I have to deal with the backlash that's going to come for all the Swifties who are like, you, you didn't like her and blah, blah, blah, you had all these things and opinions about her. And I, I know for a fact it does not even this, this conversation with Elise is actually so perfect for this, but I know for a fact that

women don't know how to see women be that big. Certainly women in entertainment, it is, it is a challenge to our own self-worth it makes us feel bad about ourselves it makes us you know feel insecure because it's some woman who has literally taken over the world by storm and it makes you feel inadequate I think when you're in a similar industry not that I'm even remotely in the same pond or ocean as Taylor Swift but it still is it's a it's a women a woman in entertainment who started in the same place that a lot of us started, which was like, I just like singing. And she took that, I just like singing,

and she blossomed into this full-blown Beatles mania or more. Can I say something here? Because the conversation is upcoming, so sorry to say this, but I actually think, Becca, you are such a strong person and opinionated, opinionated and you, um, you, you sometimes act tougher than you are. Like you have a very, very, very soft in inner working world, um, that you don't show many people like until, until you're very close with them, you know? And I think with Taylor is, and you don't stand up for yourself in business the way that you should. Like, that's one of the things I know, like when we go into

contracts or we go into deals, you're just like, I want them to like me. I want them to like me. like i don't want to push too hard i don't want to like fight for what i deserve because i just like i want to be agreeable and taylor's the opposite of that she's been uh unagreeable she's been like no no no no i don't care if you like me get me the bag and maybe that's the envy you have because i don't actually think it's a talent thing i think no i think you're like she was able to stand up for herself and she didn't care if they hated her and maybe that's the thing you envy Well, it also because of her brand is always been so like vulnerable and she's an artist, like a true artist who's like telling her feelings, whether they're like, you know, sobby, breakup, like emo, whatever. Like that's another thing that because I'm so don't show that to like even my innermost circle that I sit there and it makes me uncomfortable to see other people sharing their insides like that to so many people.

And it's not that I'm judgmental. It's that it's so foreign to me. Yeah. And it's like, wow, maybe I'm envious of her ability to put it all out there and not feel weird about doing so. I love this. Look at us. Look at you. she's climbed cringe mountain and it's hard to watch other people climb it

cringe mountain it's true yeah no she's actually has no shame about her putting her feelings out there and that is like i just i had a real listen i'm not gonna be crying at the who knows maybe i will i think you will i'm not gonna be experience i'm not like i'm not gonna be i'm still not gonna fall into the category of people who are trying to find secret meanings behind things and numerology and all of the things like I, I really, but yes, that is what's happening, but I am, I'm freaking scared. I'm scared to hear from this. I think they're going to be, I think they're going to be excited. I don't know if you're going to be like, welcome to the dark side. Yeah. God, now what do I know? I'm on the other side alone. We could, we could enter the lottery. Maybe we could

see him in Scotland. I mean, listen, I'll take any excuse to travel, especially if your mom is paying for it right thanks mom that's insane I love it um yeah okay so good week obviously I moved into my new house it's so exciting and I've also been on like a little bit of a spiritual journey and during that journey I'm like really I'm big on looking for signs like I'm looking for good omens I'm looking for things to just like tell me I'm in the right like I've made the right choice and I'm in the right decision so as Jared and I were moving we literally got to the house we pulled into the driveway and i looked down on the driveway and there was a little evil eye bead on the driveway which me it's like a protector yeah like thing and it was hand painted

just one single little bead and i'm like if this i've never seen a bigger sign in my entire life wow that like i'm in the right place so i kept it i'm gonna like do a little i don't know what i'm gonna do with it but i'm like made me feel like i made like the right decision with the house that's crazy isn't that crazy i literally was like holy like this is and it's just one it's not like somebody like spilled to necklace or something just one right line i looked down and it was like right there the crack of the sidewalk or no it was on our driveway our driveway is kind of like paved with different little like brick things and it was just like sitting it was crazy becca she got the bead we left i was just gonna say wait i was literally just going to say may

got up at four in the morning and was like Jack needs a special sign honey bring the camera I was literally thinking I'm like did the previous owners leave that it seemed too crazy that like that was just sitting there that that somebody didn't like leave it for me but I guess like maybe that's how signs work I don't know wow um but then there is other signs like uh right outside of our door there was a little bird's nest little baby birds and I guess if you didn't touch it the nest i didn't i didn't touch it um and then they're also the previous owner so we have like a big garden we have a huge garden in our house it's like the reason why we bought the house um and i started looking around it and they left all of these little garden frogs there's

probably 20 frogs and you love frogs and frogs are like my special little animal um so i'm like okay i'm taking all of these signs so that's my good week that i'm like in the the right place the right house for me um my bad week is the other morning jared and i woke up and he goes outside and i see him just shaking his head looking at the ground something killed all of the little birds i don't know what it was but he found all the little baby birds no on the ground so i'm like makes me sad and i'm like i'm not really i'm looking for all the signs i'm not looking for a bad sign but like it's the circle of life that's what i was you know we're really trying to say that because i'm like it's just it's just how the it's how the circle of life works

what predators everywhere i know i'm like it was just somebody had to eat i don't know but it was like i i'm not looking into that sign i'm trying to let that one just like brush off my shoulder Oh, sad. I know. Home ownership, the highs and lows. I know. I know. Well, I'll start with my bad week. You guys know for the past almost decade that it has been wildly discussed that my resting Kelty face and my robotic tendencies can sometimes be cold to people and I turn off and the facials, you know, they, they make people feel away. And you guys have always protected me so that you'd run behind me and been like, by the way, she's like not evil bitch. She just does that with her face, you know? So I it's, it's caught, it's caught up to me again, but there was no Becca

or Jack to protect me. I got a call from a very high, high level publicist in the business because one of her clients, she's taken, taken on a new client. And the client allegedly was like, she was like, well, we want to do this. We want to do this. We want to do this. We want to do this. And when my name was brought up, the country star was like, we can't do that. She hates me. And so then the publicist wrote me and she was like, Hey, two things. Hey, I'm thinking about having a hysterectomy. And I was like, I'm the queen of the hysterectomies. I'm like, I have, Talk to me, girl. Talk to me. My whole personality is this. And the second thing is, hey, we wanted to do something with blah, blah, blah. But like, she feels like she had a really

bad experience with you, blah, blah, blah. Like, you know, what happened and how can we make it right? And I was like, so I called and I was like, I've never thought twice about this person in my life. Like I literally have never thought about them again. And they were like, allegedly I was on a carpet and they skipped over me because they didn't have like the right handler. And I made a face and then that person like i don't know was like she hates me forever so i'm just letting you know if you're out there wait it wasn't even like an interaction it was just like a face you made yeah like she damn you're that powerful yeah like on the carpets and then you know like listen it was i was probably exhausted and i probably did this thing of like you know they skipped over me

and then i was like who the does she think she is like and she may have heard that okay so it was actually not just a face no I have no idea I mean I never say that I just give a look to like okay you're gonna skip me all right hot shit like you know like I get that I I take it very offensively when people skip me why don't you want to talk to the Kelty Knight and that's exactly what I said to the publicist I was like well she skipped me so I probably made a face in a cunty comment doesn't mean I hate her oh my god just you're like it's called show business not show friends show business kid I was like Sheila would say yeah I'm like you know what we should have our lady gang so we'll see and maybe we'll talk about i hope we can talk about it with her i know anyway

i don't want to like blow up the publicist who told me this you know in secret i don't it's a new client so i don't want to like i don't want to like you know name names but when she comes on the podcast we'll talk about it yeah okay my good week is i have come so far as a human guess what i did this week i went out to dinner with with friends after work wow and i'm and chris came and i didn't get home till 10 12 p.m on a school night i'm wow what what inspired this reckless decision well heather dubrow was a guest on e-news right so it's you went out to dinner with Heather Dubrow? Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's not like, I know you're friends with her, but that's like also a business connection. Well, she was on e-news and she was like, we should get

dinner. And I was like, great. And then I invited Justin cause he's friends with her too. And so Justin and Heather and me and Terry and Chris all went out to dinner at bird street, which is like the new Soho house here in LA. It's like a members only thing. The food was amazing. And like Heather Dubrow does a dinner where it's like you have the drinks then you have the appetizers then you have the meal then you have the dessert and it was so fun and honestly I think I just need to take Chris better places because he didn't pick up his phone once he did not get distracted with his work people which he always does like he was fully focused on just being there I didn't look at my phone it was just so fun and then the next morning Justin called me and he goes I loved spending time

with Chris. If anything ever happens with you guys, just know that I'm taking his side because he's great. Oh my God. That is the best compliment. That's the best compliment ever. Yeah. It was really fun. I mean, Jack, I don't have real, real friends. So like, you know, so yeah, it was with friends, but it was still exciting. I haven't gone out to dinner on a Tuesday in a hundred years. Did you have a drink of an alcoholic beverage? I had two margaritas. Oh my God. I had the sticky buns. I had the caco de pepe. I had a Caesar salad, whatever it is. Wait, did you have any regrets when you saw 10, 13, when you walked or 10, 12, when you walked into your house? My only regret is that I'm reading this horrible book right now. And I, I, I should have given it

up right at the beginning. And it's like, it's a fantasy novel. The person's like has a demon inside them. They're having sex, the demon sex. Like, I don't know what I'm reading. And then my only regret was that I was a little tipsy and I was trying to read at the same time. But then I was like, I don't know what happened on these 20 pages, but like, it doesn't fucking matter. I hate this book. So that was my only regret. And I woke up the next morning. Chris is like, I feel great. And I was like, I feel great too. You're feeding your soul. Yeah. I lived a little. Imagine that. Imagine that. All right. When we come back, we're going to live some more. Bye. As the resident mom over here at Lady Gang, I'm here to tell you that typically children's

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longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, OneSkin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. So get started today with 15% off using code LADY at oneskin.co. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Thanks so much. now back to the lady gang our guest today is the new york times best-selling author of on our best behavior the seven deadly sins and the price women pay to be good she's a longtime podcast host magazine editor and the former chief content officer of goop please welcome elise lunin to the lady gang. Hi. Hi. Wow. It's like, you know, anytime my head is just swirling and spinning and I feel like I'm failing and thriving all in the same breath, I go to your Instagram and just click

on one of your videos. Like it doesn't even have to be the most recent. It just has to be something where it's you talking to me or I think it's me. And you just say something, you plant a little seed and it's both like mind expanding and comforting. And I just, I got to meet you at a friend's house. Jen Padalecki had this talk where we talked about your book and it was a room full of women. And, you know, there's a lot of people out, a lot of experts and like, you know, interesting personalities, right? Telling us how to live our lives and making observations of being women. And sometimes you meet those people or you hear them talk and you think, oh, I don't know if it's, this is really like my religion that I'm going to start, you know, practicing or whatever

it is. But you sat in that room with a very diverse group of women, some native Texans, some women who came from California, some, you know, and every single woman, I looked around that room and I was like, we just, we just came to church. Like we're all taking a collective of breath together. You're so the real deal that I don't think people even really understand, but I'm so grateful that I got to meet you. And I'm sorry to be doing this right off the bat, because this is not, you know, part of the program, but I just, I want the lady gang to know because I am such a skeptic that when I do feel like somebody speaks to my soul, I just want everybody to know, like throughout this episode, if you feel that is happening to you, don't

question it. It's, it's very real. Oh, Becca. Thank you. And on Instagram, I am speaking to you only you every time. Thank God. I had a feeling. Yeah. That was a really fun night too. A very fun night. You know what? Jack and I are good. We're going to just, you guys just, we'll get our own room. Give us a breakout room. I want to start because a lot of people sort of know you or knew you and knew of your face, um, just from being goop adjacent and being a part of the, you know, the show and the different things. And then you actually went on to like sort of talk about toxic wellness culture. And, you know, I, I want to get your thoughts on that and just start sort of start there as our as our jump in. Because we do live in this weird

standard where it's like, well, if we have to find the time in our day to do womanhood this way with like our 15 step skincare and we need to meditate and we need to dry brush and we need to do all these things. And, but like, we also have jobs and we have families and we have all these responsibilities. So what does that mean to you when you say toxic wellness culture? You lived in it for so long. Well, I think that as in every single industry or every state, right? Every part of the world, there's the light side and the dark side. And I think that we always start on, maybe not always, but I think you have to be, um, you have to be a dark person to start on the dark side. I think most people start these, these, these fledgling industries or movements

are always born out of a desire to make the world better or to call attention to something that needs to be seen. And I think the wellness industry is, is a perfect example of that. You know, when when it was nascent a couple of decades ago, it was sort of alone, a canary in the coal mine saying, whoa, whoa, you know, it shouldn't be raining glyphosate in the Midwest. It shouldn't. What are we eating? And is this food? And why is everyone getting sick? You know, all all very valid concerns, along with and the reason that I persist in loving the wellness industry is that it was very feminine. And at its roots, it was saying women are dismissed, women are treated as hysterical, we are undertreated, we are certainly understudied, women hadn't been included in medical research until the mid-90s. And so something has to be done here because nobody is paying attention to us. and so in a lot of ways the initial wellness movement was a push for that

and and a very valid push and you can see how the culture has shifted um it's not perfect but we're certainly moving mainstream medicine is moving in the right direction or at least acknowledging that uh more black women die in childbirth all these things are are now apparent to us or more apparent. And, and then, you know, it becomes commercialized, it becomes capitalized, and you see what we have now, which, and again, there's, I'm going to come back to this idea of clean and dirty, because that's a big part of this. But now you have this incredibly capitalized, commercialized world that again, has a lot of bright spots and a lot of wonderful intentions and a desire to disrupt existing structures.

But you get into this complete over-focus on self, tracking everything. I don't want to live like that, you know, but it's hard. It's that whole world, sort of the wellness world is sold to us as optimization and longevity. And it comes in very gently as you don't really want to die with six chronic diseases. do you don't you want to have a long health span which it's hard not to say yeah that would be that sounds great sign me up but then it becomes this obsessive compulsive um you can't sleep without your tracker you can't eat a morsel without tracking your blood glucose level um just not a way again and it's most that part is mostly men who i think are obsessed with not

dying, not being weak, not being dependent, uh, not feeling powerful. And so this is this hyper control mechanism to optimize every moment of their life. And meanwhile, it's like lip, actually, maybe you should live your life. Maybe you'd have a better, more joyful life if you just ate the burrito. Am I allowed to swear? So there's that. And then, then this idea of toxic, which which people have equated with diet culture and i completely understand why because it gets into the same it goes into these patterns of restriction that are so deadly for women at times and just again another a way i don't want to spend my energy anymore but this belief and some of it is true i don't want to say that there's no light to this or no value to this which

is that, um, we were eating a lot of processed foods. It's better to eat whole foods. That's sort of like the literally most wholesome version of this. Um, and it's become this, like my body is a temple. I can't take in anything. Everything's going to kill me. And so I need to use my body as a bulwark to the world and to ensure that I am safe and pure. It gets into this, like, again, not intentionally. I don't think anyone was like, let's create a framework here and then let's execute it. We just fall into these patterns of like purity and asceticism and fasting, which is almost, you know, has its roots in religion. And I think, again, I think it's a very understandable, I mean, it makes a lot of sense in the context of my book

and the way that women are, in order to have a quote unquote good body, you must be disciplined and constrained and your body must be small and abiding all these, these qualities, which we all know. But it goes, it goes haywire, haywire. And I think also women are looking at the world and saying, we don't have any, we don't have power here. We don't have control. The only thing I can control is myself. And so I'm just going to like triple team on myself as, as a way to keep all this chaos and uncertainty away from me and to try to be safe and secure. And it's, I understand the impulse. Um, but it is, it's not, it's not, I don't think it's, it's going to save us. We need, we need some collective action here instead.

Well, it's interesting. It's almost like if you look at the patriarchy, we're, we're doing exactly what they want us to be doing, which is like just being so distracted by being perfect that we don't actually do anything to, I mean, this is very general. I know a lot of us and a lot of women and groups are doing a lot to, to motivate and change for change. But a lot of us are just in our little homes, cooking our healthy whole foods meals and tracking our workouts and going to our exercise studios and our world is so tiny and controlled that it's like we're being distracted from all this other stuff going on in the world. So it's like we're actually just giving in while we think we're being so disciplined and we're being like the good girl. Yeah. And that

we're sort of ensuring this healthy lifespan for us or modeling good behavior. And really it's It's part of this bigger idea of control, which is, too, that we've been convinced and conditioned to believe. And we can talk about patriarchy in the way that we sort of unconsciously promote it in ourselves and then police each other about it, too. But this idea, you know, we do that. Oh, yeah. Big time. But that, you know, to your point, Becca, I have a lot of, if I don't, if I don't, you know, put a bridle on myself, then I will be completely out of control. And suddenly I will be, you know, a giantess. I'm already five foot 10. And like, I will just be, my body will run amok if I do not keep it bridled. And I think that that thought is so this battle that we engage in with our bodies around control and bringing it to heal and making it conform and abide is so insistent and that we should or that it's not more of sort of a, honestly, a mutual relationship.

I think this is why too so many women's bodies break or you get sort of this autoimmune disease epidemic amongst women and there are a lot of factors and they don't really understand it and so on and so forth. But I think a lot of it is just our bodies are on strike literally and won't do it anymore and want us to find another way to be in the world. Yeah. A really interesting piece that you had spoken about that I'd never heard before that made so much sense that really caught me that I wanted to bring up was this idea. This is switching gears a little bit, but this idea of the upper limit problem. and I'm just going to read a tiny bit. She said, once I saw the pattern, it became obvious how it worked. I would enjoy a period of harmony and then stop the flow of the connection by criticizing or starting an argument. The upper limit problem showed up even in my eating habits. I would eat healthy food, get plenty of exercise, feel great for several days. And then I'd go on this huge binge of restaurant food. The late nights would make me feel terrible. As humans, we enjoy this

period of peace. Then we plunge into a war. We create a time of economic expansion, and then we go into a recession. Everywhere you looked, you saw the evidence of this pattern. I really love this because I am the tracker person who's like, I control the chaos of my life by writing everything down and tracking. But for so long, I believed that if I was a good enough woman that I could live at the upper limit forever. Like that I would reach this peak where it was all going right at the same time. I was eating right. I was working so hard. My relationship was awesome. My house was awesome. I was being a good friend. I was being a good family member. Like I could live at the upper echelon of it all this way up here if I was a good enough woman. And what I've learned

in the past, I don't know, five or six years I've really been working on it is that there's just going to be times when it is not going at 100. And there's just going to be times where you suck. And there's going to be times where you can't be doing it all right. And when one thing's good, the other thing's low. But can you talk about the upper limit problem and how we get to this place of happiness and then it instantly bombs? Yeah. So this man, Gay Hendricks, and he wrote this book called The Big Leap, and he talks about the upper limit problem and also the zone of genius, which is also very powerful because most of us are not living in our zone of genius. We are living in our zone of excellence or zone of competence. And there's also a zone of

incompetence. But I love that framework too, because I think a lot of people have gifts, particularly women, that are not necessarily celebrated in our culture. And when you actually do the work of figuring it out and writing it down, you start to see the pattern of how you show up in the world and where your unique gifts are and what it would be like to live into them. And then the idea, too, of the upper limit problem is that it comes the minute it's not that simple, but the minute you're sort of trying to move into your zone of genius, the upper limit problem is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Back to that zone of excellence, back to that zone of competence. Like, don't you dare. It's sort of your shadow, your ego saying, watch out, Kelty, you're too big for your britches. Life's not going to be this peaceful or easy.

Um, and I think too, with upper limit problems, at least in my mind, I have achieved the thing. I'm sure many people can relate to this, you know, the goal weight in my earlier life, the, the job, the, you know, whatever it may be. And then you're like, but I don't feel any different. This isn't solving anything in my life because it's this goal oriented idea and you're not actually in this ongoing process of expansion. So as your life keeps moving, your upper limit problems will move too and keep you in some ways just constrained. And I don't think you're supposed to necessarily sort of get over them or that that's the goal either. But it's a really

helpful idea to watch, like, when am I coming in to sabotage myself? When am I coming in to say, you had enough because you'll start to see it all over your life. And I think too, we've been trained to believe that something like an upper limit problem, I write about this in the introduction of the book where I'm breathless and I have this condition called, you know, where I chronically over-breathe and I literally can't take a deep breath when I get into one of these patterns. And I opened the book in my therapist's office because I am sort of been doing it for months, still functioning at work, but I seem sort of lethargic and narcoleptic and it's really – it takes a huge amount of energy. And I'm crying and asking my therapist what it is and like when will I feel good – like when will this be done with me, this suffocating presence in my life? Like, when will I be free? When will I find that sort of relief or release that you're talking about where I'm like, I'm good on every level and I'm not do not have a cattle prod of anxiety up my butt.

And, you know, and where's the finish line here? Because I'm doing it. I'm winning. You know, at that point, I had a really high profile job. I'm married. I have two very sweet little boys. you could look across my life and say, well, everything there looks good. And yet I was just, I felt terrible, truly terrible. So, and I think that that's an experience for a lot of women, but we stay, and people in general, but you stay on that hamster wheel convinced that you will outrun it and you won't. You have to turn and actually say, what am I even, And because you mentioned sort of in that that gay quote, that gay Hendrix quote, you know, the sabotaging of meals, the like, at what point do you say this is not even something that I care about, actually? Or what what is what am I even doing?

Because for me, I was like, oh, I am on a path. Not that there was anything wrong with it. And I liked everything in my life at the time. But what am I doing here? I'm not self-authoring my life. I am on some sort of path here that is predetermined by someone else. Yes, I would choose my husband a million times over, etc. But like, I'm on, I'm on an autopilot path. This is not me with my tentacles saying like, this, this is what I want. I had no idea what I even wanted. Lady Gang is brought to you by Skims. So usually with, you know, loungewear,

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Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. this episode of lady gang is brought to you by huggy's little movers huggy's knows that babies come in all shapes and sizes and their tushies do too huggy's best fitting diaper is their little movers with its curved and stretchy fit moms know there is nothing worse than an ill-fitting diaper especially for your active babies i have a two-year-old i know this to be true he is all

over the place he's running around huggy's little movers are curved so ford feels really comfy no matter how much he's moving around and like i said it is a lot and also they offer up to 12 hour protection against leaks which is a game changer i don't want to brag but ford does sleep 12 hours a night so this is perfect i do not wake up with a wet baby get your baby's butt into huggy's best fitting diaper huggy's little movers we got you baby we've also got you mamas because there's nothing worse than a leaky diaper. You're listening to the Lady Gang. Kelty, do you have a question? I feel like this ties in a little bit, but figuring out what you want as a woman is so hard. And admitting what you want to yourself, let alone other people,

is petrifying. And a lot of this for myself, when I read in your book, the part about envy, I realized that I was so limiting of myself and a lot of it was this feeling of envy for all these other women doing the thing that I really desperately wanted to be doing myself but instead of being able to say that's the reason I'm envious of this woman is because I just really she's highlighting the thing that I want for myself it turned into this really toxic observation and self-criticizing and all of these like really icky feelings when in reality, you talk about how it's just highlighting the thing that you want for yourself. Can you go into that? Because I think this is really the thing that my mind like exploded while reading.

Yes. This is the gateway to the whole book. And originally I was like, I think I need to write a book about women and envy. And my brother is a book editor and he was like, nobody wants to cultivate more envy in their life um which is true and but this is sort of one of the main this if if if you take one thing this is this is the thing to take and this is it doesn't matter where i am when i'm having conversations about the book it always comes back to envy because it's the source both of our the of a lot of pain for women both the ways in which we have not self-expressed and the ways in which we have been vicious to other people, it mostly comes down to envy. So I, many years ago when I was the host of the Goop podcast, this is probably 2018 or 2017,

I was in conversation with Lori Gottlieb who wrote, Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which is a great book about psychotherapy. And she had this small moment. It wasn't a big, it wasn't a big plot point where she said, I always tell my clients to pay attention to their envy because it shows them what they want. And you guys, I, I just, I couldn't stop thinking about that. And because I had two relatively extreme reactions to it. One, I had this, Ooh, envy. I would never. Gross. Ooh, not me. Like, I have no envy, which of course was a sign to me that I needed to pay attention to that. And the second thing about showing me what I want, I realized I had no idea what I wanted. And I think a majority of women, whether you, again, and my book is about the way that patriarchal culture becomes these, it gets into our subconscious and we enact it, we embrace it, we live it, and then we insist on seeing it in each other. So none of this is like, I choose this, I choose this. None of this is conscious. We're not subscribing to any of this. We are just in it. It's part of our culture.

So. With envy, this idea that. That I didn't know what I wanted, it's in part because we live in a culture that doesn't really have any interest in what women want, clearly, and women are conditioned to subjugate what they want to other people's needs. it's this yeah that's great for you to have a job as long as you are taking care of your family first right um it's great for you to go and have a girl's night you know after you've taken care of everything at the house right and ordered the door dash and set everything else up like this is these are just the patterns of our lives you can find this everywhere even if you're saying at this moment not me not me chances are yes you so um so I didn't know what I wanted again I'd been on this like next best step which is a reasonable way to live your life but I you know was left at the end of this with like no ability to even breathe or enjoy my life um and so I started to look around

and I realized and I and I talked to Lori Gottlieb about this and asked her if envy is more common with women and she said I don't know there's I don't know if there's research on that but I think women are more uncomfortable with things that they perceive to be as bad and I recognized a pattern which will surprise absolutely no one that Becca mentioned which is a tendency in myself and then I started to see it in other people which is that I would have an unreasonable reaction to some women and find myself deprecating them and criticizing them and doing it. It's so acceptable in our culture that nobody was checking me because why would they? And I, I would never check my friends as they sort of vented off on another woman,

but this like, why do people like her so much? Or who just, you know, I thought her book sucked. You know, why do people like that podcast so much? I don't get it. I think it's dumb. You know, you will catch yourself doing this. And the reality is, in order to have that reaction of this person, their achievements, what they're doing in the world, what they have in the world is making me deeply uncomfortable. And I need to take this discomfort and instead of interrogating it and saying, oh, what is this person doing that you want? What does this person have that you want? The instinct is to project all of that discomfort onto them, to make them bad for making you feel bad. And the reality is that person with the podcast, that person with the bestselling book is knocking on, it's your soul knocking on your noggin and saying, pay attention to this. There's information here. There is a want here that you have not allowed to come up and experience and express. and women all over our culture are stuck in this and pride and envy and scarcity,

which I write about in Greed, are very Venn diagrammed, which is women who are doing something in the world do not want the attention on them because they know it will inspire envy and they know they will be destroyed. You guys, of all people, would recognize what happens to very visible women. It doesn't just happen to actors and performers and musicians, although we see that very publicly. It happens in business. We saw this with the great canceling of 2020 when all these female founders went away. But we celebrate these women as they gain a certain amount of visibility in the culture and are on the rise. They get to a certain point and we say, that's enough for you, Becca. You're done. You're too big for your

britches. You need to be put back in your place. We're going to attack your reputation and your goodness. We're going to say you're a bad person, toxic coworker, abusive. That's the world of, this is how we go for women. And we're going to destroy you. And then maybe in five years, you can sort of have your comeback tour and we'll be like, oh, we missed you, Becca. Where have you been. Oh my God, Becca. So great to see you again. And, um, and part of the reason also that this happens for women is scarcity and the perception of scarcity, which is real and perceived. But we, instead of saying, oh, there are, you know, 50, 50 or 10 people at that boardroom table. One of them is women. Let's get rid of some of those men. Like they can move aside. We say,

there's a woman, I need to dethrone her, destroy her. She is standing in the way of what I want. And therefore there's not room for both of us. So she goes, so I can stay. And unconscious patterns, we hate this. We hate this in ourselves. It feels terrible, but this is what we are. This is our playbook. And it's, it's what we, we do all over the place. And it starts, it stops with recognizing as it, that discomfort as it comes up and the need to sort of just, and again, you're allowed to dislike people. I also want to make that very clear. Like I don't, I don't have any envy of Marjorie Taylor green. I don't look at her and say, Oh my God, I'm like, she's full of information for me and what my soul wants, but she doesn't mean anything to me either. I can look at her

and say this policy, this policy, that coat, whatever it is, I can point to specific actions and behaviors and criticize those. But I don't even know anything about Marjorie Taylor Greene, the person, because she means nothing to me. So that's sort of the difference of how you know what's active in you and whether there's really good information for you to process. That night that we were at Jen's house, you made an observation that really, as a podcaster, blew my mind right open. Um, and I'd like to say we actually, as the lady gang have unconsciously or consciously like been pretty good at this. So I'm proud of us, but we could be better. But you made this observation about because of women in our scarcity mindset,

like podcasters, female podcasters, it's, we are always afraid of I'm speaking for us of losing our audience or dwindling or them leaving us to go to the next cool female podcast. But then you pointed out the thing about Tim Ferriss and like Rogan and it just, I was like, oh my God, I never even noticed this. Yeah. Yes. This is big. I wrote a series on my sub stack for people who are interested about all of the intricacies of this. It's four parts. It starts with a piece called Ending the Mantle, which is the all-male panel, which still happens all the time. Oh, yeah. And – but it was about what happens in the upper echelons of podcasting and the way that the brocasters, Andrew Huberman, Peter Attia, Tim Ferriss, et cetera, have taken over the charts.

And again, I think there were obviously early male movers in this space, but there were a lot of women as well. And originally, this was supposed to be an op-ed for a paper of note. And then they said, we don't want to criticize the media. And then I wrote this. I just sat on it for a year, and then I published it. And then the Huberman stuff came out, which was perfect. um but uh it's this idea that um one these men don't interview any women so the guesting rates for these shows are 10 10 11 12 13 percent even people like sam harris who i would expect a lot

more from they do not interview women they do not see them as experts even though i should note women and girls have been outperforming boys and men in school for a century. We are out earning boys and men in MDs. We are out earning boys and men in PhDs, including in biomedical sciences by a significant margin. It's like 60-40 or something. I need to go and look. But this idea that there are no female experts is so persistent in our culture in part because they're just not ever shown. And yet these guys are citing their research. They're just choosing not to interview them. They're choosing to interview each other or be the expert, which is also the subject of a whole expert who gets to be an expert. It's a

fascinating conversation. But anyway, what is heartbreaking and what I observed of these men who do not interview women is that they interview each other. And there's this vast circle jerk happening where they all run each other through the ranks when they have something to promote. This includes Dax Shepard. This includes Jay Shetty, all the guys, all the big guys. They are supporting each other, helping each other, boosting each other's audiences. They do not see each other as competition. And apparently they're not because these guys are just growing and growing and growing. Peter Atiyah's book has been on the New York Times bestseller list for like 70 weeks, right? They just keep taking more and more and more audience, including a lot of

women. Huberman has said that half of his listeners are women. And I don't think that that has changed after the New York Magazine article. Whole nother conversation. But there is no corollary amongst women and female podcasters. I mean, there's some sort of solidarity, you know, thank you for having me on. Deeply appreciated. Reciprocate anytime. But there's no network. These guys are all on a WhatsApp group comparing stats, insights, ad rates. And women, in my experience, and I think I shared this too with you, Becca, that night, is that the women whose work my work very closely aligns with, um, are the ones who there were, I had a lot of support for my book. Um, a lot of actors, therapists, doctors, um, just people in the culture in general have been incredibly

supportive of my work, but the people generally, the ones who haven't are other writers and podcasters who are in adjacent or in the same lanes, not, not exclusively, but it's, it's definitely you can see it in my, I like to track things guys. I like data, but, um, but it's a sad list of people who were not there for me. No, I don't. I send them all love. I get it. I get it. I understand. Can I say something here? And I, I really want to know this because I, you know, I would put you in the category, Elise, as like, uh, a cool girl. You know what I mean? Like you run in a cool circle like you have the phone numbers of people who in hollywood are cool like i'm and i'm just being 100 honest and then and i think what happened no it's it's it's like you

know and that's amazing you know when we started lady gang you know we were one of the first female podcasts and so we didn't have like we looked around and we're like wait it's literally joe rogan and cars.com ads like we had to like personally we used to take photos of our bathrooms and, and literally write every brand that we had in our, in our medicine cabinet to be like, Hey, deodorant company, like we have women listeners and we would love to tell, like, could you support us? Because it was all male facing brands at the first, probably two and a half years. And I remember being, when we got nominated for the people's choice awards and it was like us scrubbing in chicks in the office, like we were at this table of podcasters. They

didn't even televise the podcast award. Of course we were all there thinking we were going to be on TV, whoever won or whatever. But I remember that day and, and, and really the only thing that helped our podcast grow was being on each other's podcast. And so there was this group of like, we'd go on chicks in the office, we'd have them on, we'd go on Caitlin Bristow, we'd have them on. But what was really interesting about it was that it was all kind of, and I mean this with love, like B-list girlies. Like it was like, it wasn't the cool girls that were supportive of each other. It was like all the girls. We were like the nerds in high school. Yeah. It was like all the girl groups that couldn't get invited to the really cool shows and get invited to the cool parties

and the cool industry events. We all did what those guys are doing, which is why I think there are so many female podcasts hosted by kind of nobodies like that have become successful do you know what i mean like if you look at toast you know um chicks in the office like all of those things we've all been in a little community for years and like when claudia put out her book i was like okay here's how we you know worked really hard to get the new york times like let's you know these are some of the things that we learned during our process like we've shared each other But there's something about the cool girl that doesn't like, is it that you just, and like, I, I mean this with a hundred percent love, but like, are the cool girls, are the cool girls, like when you're in the cool girl circle, do you just not see us? Or is it like, well, why would we, why would we waste our time on these people with not as many followers?

Or why would we waste our time having these people when we could have Kate Hudson? Can I give my two cents of what I think is happening? I don't even think the cool girls think they're the cool girls. I think that everybody is so caught up in their own story that they're telling themselves. I think Kate Hudson is comparing herself to Gwyneth Paltrow. Like, I think that there's just no one at the top who really believes that they're in a in a secure as a woman in a secure foundation to where they can put their hand down and or even have their blinders taken off for two seconds to see it. Like, I, I know the cool girls are like so easy to hate on, but I just think that everybody's so stuck in their own story. I'm not hating on them, but I'm like, when our publicist, when we had our first book coming out would go to the Goop podcast or, you know, these other really high end, you know, New York magazine style section or whatever it is, they would pass. Like that's the bottom line is they passed. You know what I mean? Even though we were doing incredible work because, you know, for whatever reason, but so I get what you're saying. But we also pass.

We also pass in our position. No, we pass too. This is, but this is, let me tell you a secret though. I hear you. I think Becca's right. I think it's not conscious. And I think it's all like, there's, you don't escape this. So I think that the feelings of scarcity are, are intensely intense at every level.

And, and I think it's not conscious. I don't think that the people, if I said to these writers, hey, I supported you. And thanks, thanks for not even like an Instagram story, they would be shocked at their own, they're not conscious of it. Right. So I think there's that I would also say that some of the most amazing support that I've received for the book that has also been very meaningful has been on podcasts like this, be there in five, etc. So this is what, what also happens is that there's this, and this might, maybe this is too heady, but in book publishing, for example, you can write sort of an academic book that gets a lot of reviews and maybe not a lot of people read it and you can get, or you can write something. I mean, look at romance novels, right? Huge appetite. And women are deprecated for this and mocked for this. Meanwhile, men are reading comic books and making action movies, but cool. But, um, there's this huge space, which you guys live in too, which is like, I want to listen to something that's fun, makes me feel good, is revelatory, but isn't like a slap in the face every five minutes. Um, and that's where people are. And that's why when I wrote my book, I was like, I want to be where the people are. And that's actually much harder to do. It's easy to sort of snob out and get the same guests that everyone else sort of perceives as popular or interesting. But, but I hear you. I

think, I think that what I want to do is get organized and put, put women in some sort of whatsapp and just get really um like nora mcinerney do you guys know nora from terrible thanks for asking best person alive familiar yeah she's a widow her husband she had like three horrible events have her husband died of geoblastoma when they were in their 30s and um and her husband or her father died a month earlier or after i can't remember but Which is the most hilarious, wonderful person who wrote this, who's also a longtime podcaster. Point is, there are like all these people with huge audiences, but who don't necessarily, are not being featured in quote unquote the media. But I think like head girls, cool people.

I love that you think that I'm cool. That's hilarious. I live in the corner of my bedroom. But like, did you think you were cool? Did you know? like did you did you feel cool I I see myself as being in sort of the service the service tier of these types of cultures um where there's the particularly living in Los Angeles they're sort of the really visible the famous people then they're the people who sort of are the support

layer I'm in the that support layer who is sometimes invited to things sort of because of my support supportiness. There are a lot of us in this layer and it's really interesting actually. Yeah. And then you have sort of like the investor class. Yeah. Yeah. You have the compelling entrepreneur class. Um, but I'm usually there because I'm in support of someone else's vision or brand or, or life. So I like, I mean, I might get invited to some things, but I don't, I don't, I'm not of that. I'm not of that group, if that makes sense. I don't know where my people are. The cool girls don't feel cool either. You're Gretchen Wiener. You're Gretchen Wiener. You're not Regina George. I'll take it. I'm definitely not Regina George. I might be Janice.

oh my god one could only aspire truthfully I know I love that I'm just gonna take this to my grave Kelty great you know what I feel now I feel a little dumb for even saying that all but I think it's really interesting because it's true I think our girls it's like you always want to be we're in this culture of like you're no one until you're seen and it's not just us in LA trying to be famous people. It's the people we see it all the time in our Facebook group, in our community of like, I just want to be seen. Like, I just want to be at my work at my life. I want, I want someone to notice me. I want to be important for one moment in this crazy life. And so we're all chasing after this. I say no notoriety, but it's not like notoriety. Like I want to be on us weekly. It's

like, we're, we're all trying to matter. We all try to want to believe that our circle of life has some sort of impact and whether it's, you know, you want to, you know, be invited to the staff birthday party or whatever. We just, you know, I don't know. I just, I just, I've really gotten good with the fact that like, there's no actual success thing that I can do that like we were talking about. Like, there's no goal that I can meet that all of a sudden I'm going to be like, wow, I made it. My life changed and here I am. Congratulations. And we're done. And I just wanted to know if like being a cool girl fell into that category. And now that you've explained that it does, I will no longer try to be cool. And I'll just recoil back into my caterpillar

of nerdiness. Well, no. And I would, I think it's a really, really, I think it's, I'm so glad you brought it up because I think that one, we glamorize things. And I'm sure you guys have had this experience too, where you meet people. I've mostly witnessed it being around very famous people where there's such a projection game happening. They'll meet someone and someone's talking to them, but it's clear that the person who's talking to them just wants to be seen by them and it creates this really weird loop and having watched that as support staff i don't want any part of it it feels so it's such a weird engagement meanwhile like i'm sure when you guys go on tour and you meet listeners of the lady gang it's amazing and when i meet readers

I'm like, this is the opposite of an identity crisis. This makes me feel so good because the people who are engaging are funny and smart and kind and doing things in their own communities, you know, therapists or whatever it may be. and it's such a warm hug and man I would take that any day over having people just sort of projecting on me as an object and I bet like do you guys just get when you guys go on tour is it the most um warming oh this is why we do this oh my god I love these women experience it's actually, like I've had two of the same experiences with two completely different feelings, like in my soul after leaving them, I had the privilege of being on a hit TV show that we would go around the world and do these conventions. And it was these glee fans who fell so madly in love with the show that we didn't write, who fell so madly in love with these

characters that we actually weren't. And they had this really huge idea of who we were to them in their brains. And it was a lot of, it was a lot of pressure. It was a lot of weird energy exchanges, a lot of imbalances and like really the projection thing where I, and you can't, no matter how, even like when you look at these like massive celebrities, I'm not a massive celebrity, but I look at them and I have empathy because even for those people who are trying to have a human moment and they really don't want the person they're talking to, to just want to please them. It's really hard to crack through and get that person to relax enough to be themselves, to then have a human connection, a real one with that huge celebrity. So it's really isolating.

So it's like, I had those experiences with Glee and then I was expecting to feel exactly the same way when we went on tour for Lady Gang. Cause I was like, well, it's the same kind of thing. you walk on stage, people scream, you do a meet and greet, you take a picture. And I always left those feelings, like feeling pretty icky and weird and disconnected and like not knowing who the fuck I am and why these people liked me. But because the podcast is us being ourselves and us sharing our hearts and our souls and our good and bad opinions, the ugly sides of us, the dark sides, the light sides that now when I have these encounters with these women, it's like we both equally see each other it's such an it's such an equal exchange of just being like you see the

world like I do and you think the same things are funny that I think and it's just such a gorgeous beautiful connection that I as much as I hate touring because energetically it really drains me those are the moments that make it totally worth it so it is a very long-winded way of saying that it is my favorite part of going on tour is having those experiences jack don't you think because you hate you get so anxious about doing the shows but then when people meet you like it's cool well no and what you're saying it's like you're an equal it's not like you're being put on a pedestal right in any type of a situation like you're meeting somebody at like a human level and that makes yourself it's like validating and it makes you so makes us so

happy to be doing what we're doing because like it actually makes an impact and a difference yeah and then when you meet someone and they're like i'm a doctor you're like why are you listening to ladies gang you're like you are far beyond that's what mostly happens all the time i'm like what why are you here you don't think that makes same room as you absolutely no um at least we could keep you forever but we can't um so listen the podcast is called pulling the thread it's available everywhere you get your podcast the book on our best behavior the seven deadly sins and the price women pay to be good is available now the newsletter how do you sign up for the newsletter that's what i want to everyone to know so go to um it's also called pulling the thread

but if you go to elise lunen.substack.com you'll find it um l-o-e-h-n-e-n um but if you google pulling the thread newsletter i hope i would hope it would come up um you're like we'll see this is a great test it's linked on your instagram as well um you're amazing i feel cooler having just spent uh you know we feel cooler having spent you know a little bit of time with you you'll have to come back thank you again and um i we're very excited to support you and let's get this what's up going let's do it i know it's happening thanks for having me so fun here we will see you next tuesday thank you so much for listening the lady gang is produced by steve delameter stacy para jared monaco and social support from amy ryerson it really means the

world to us when you show up in our community outside the podcast so sign up for our secret facebook group just search the lady gang under groups follow us on instagram and tiktok at the lady gang and the most important thing you can do is share this episode with a friend we would Love that so much. Thanks for listening.