Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - A Space in the Heart with Larry Carlat

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

What happens when the worst thing you can imagine… actually happens? When Larry Carlat’s son, Rob, died by suicide, it shattered his world. Yet from that profound heartbreak emerged something unexpected: deep connection, renewed purpose, and a love more powerful than he ever imagined possible. In this raw and deeply moving Language of Love Conversation, I sit down with Larry Carlat—writer, father, and an unexpected guide through grief. His book, A Space in the Heart: A Survival Guide for Grieving Parents, weaves memoir with grounded wisdom, offering solace not just for bereaved parents, but for anyone navigating the loss of a loved one. But Larry isn't your typical grief expert. He didn't seek out groups. Spirituality wasn't his starting point. He wasn't even sure he believed in an afterlife—until grief cracked him wide open, leading to an extraordinary journey. Together, we explore: Losing his son Rob—and the love that outlived him How Larry went from a “lone wolf” to grief coach, group leader, and friend to fellow grievers The healing magic of community, even for guys who never thought they’d talk about their feelings Psychedelic journeys and psychic mediums—how Larry reconnected with Rob on the other side Why grief is one of the most potent paths to spiritual awakening What men need (but rarely ask for) when they’re in pain—and how Larry is creating safe spaces for them to cry, connect, and heal The truth about guilt, shame, and the choice to live again—even after unimaginable loss Larry’s story is a vital reminder: we don’t have to "move on" to move forward. Joy and sorrow can coexist. If you’re grieving or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers a beacon of hope and understanding. If this episode speaks to your heart, there’s more support waiting for you. A Space in the Heart: A Survival Guide for Grieving Parents is a powerful read for anyone navigating the impossible. For men navigating grief, check out Larry’s work at griefforguys.com or reach him at [e-mail]. Curious about connecting beyond loss? The Grief Healing Collective offers live sessions, resources, and community. Start with my Good Grief Course for practical tools. If you’ve felt your loved one close or want to, this episode is for you. Share your story: [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love.

Larry, Carla, thank you so much for joining us on the Language of Love. Pleasure to be here with you. I'm excited to talk to you. Now, you and I met at Megan Reardon Jarvis' Grief-tastic Book Fair. Now, these guys know Megan. I've interviewed her on the show before. And she's a grief and trauma healer, but she had this book fair on the heels of the Endwell Conference, which is sort of a death and dying conference here in Los Angeles. And Larry, you were speaking because your new book, A Space in the Heart, I guess was just releasing around that time or had just released. A couple of days before, yeah.

Yeah. And it was part of a parents panel, right? For parents who had lost children, which is why I was there, as these guys know. So I just loved your story, the message in your book. I read your book, which is wonderful. But I thought we could like dive into it. First of all, I'm so excited and we're going to get into this. I find, because I've been in the grief universe, well, I've been in it forever, but certainly on a really personal level and taking a really deep dive into helping people heal for four plus years now. And one of the biggest, most of the people doing the healing work tend to be women. And most of the people writing about the healing work tend to be women. Not all of them, obviously, but one of the things I really love so much about

your story and the way you show up in it and the way you tell it is not only the tenderness and guidance you provide and the vulnerability, but that you're kind of leading the charge. Guys grieve too. They just tend to hide it or to avoid it or to not join processes that could help. So I thought we could start with just a little bit of your story and maybe get into that piece as well. All right, let's see. Let's start at the end and then we can go to the beginning. And I guess the end is it begins with my son, Rob, who took his own life six years ago. He shot himself. As I like to say, it was sort of a shot, but it wasn't a surprise. Rob was a difficult baby and a difficult teenager and a difficult adult. And we had 28 years of difficulty. And yet I've never

loved anyone the way I loved Rob. It was a love that was singular to him because I think he needed it more than anyone. So that was the end. That was the end of my life as I knew it and the end of Rob's life. And then over time, I got through it as you've read in the book. And the biggest surprise to me is how I became sort of a grief coach and counselor at Our House Grief Support Center because in a million years, I did not see that on my radar. And it's been probably one of the biggest surprises of my life, number one. And number two, maybe one of the best things I've ever done in my life and totally unanticipated, really just out of the blue. So, you know, let's dig into that for a minute or is it the kids say let's double click on that so our house which is sort

of a grief support group i believe they're national right they're national they're not actually they're only in los angeles they're opening up a chapter in new york this fall and that is it oh wow it should be a national organization but it's not so when you say you didn't see yours you know obviously you're leading a group maybe was not something being in the role of grief coach and leading other grievers through support. And we'll talk about what you've helped them with in a minute. I get that you didn't see yourself that way as a writer and, you know, a dad, like you weren't, you never identified as that before. And I can imagine that that's, I know personally that that's unbelievably rewarding work. Were you a group person before

this? Were you someone? I love this part of the story because by the way, I'm not a group person neither. And it's one of the most important parts of grief healing is the community piece. So what made you finally go to, and I guess it was maybe our house where you were at first, but what made you go, stay, and then become a leader yourself? No, you totally got it in that I was a total lone wolf. I've never been a part of any group at all. I was in a lot of pain as you were in a lot of pain. And anyone who has lost a child was in a lot of pain early on. And the first thing I did is I found a good grief therapist who I went to for a solid year. And then the second thing I did was joined a support group. The first time I

was there, I was all ready to bolt. I was ready to leave and never come back. And to my surprise, I just felt immediately accepted, and I felt I was with my people, and I feel that way today. As a matter of fact, I had breakfast with a guy that I'm coaching right now, and he celebrated, celebrated, quote-unquote, the anniversary of his son's death this morning, and I instantly just felt, it almost feels like an electric type of connection. I was so connected to this person, mainly because, you know, another, he lost his son to suicide. And we just bonded and had a great talk. And that's sort of what happened when I was in the grief group. And literally someone, one of the moms in the grief group once said these words. She said, I wish there was a

book or a guide or a manual to help us with this. And I know it sounds like really corny and cheesy, But that was the truth. And the light bulb went off and I said, I'm going to write this book for her and for us. And that's where the book, that's where the idea for the book came from. I was blogging about Rob for a year after he died because that was the way I was able to grieve. I'm a writer. So I wrote every day. And, you know, when it was a way for me to stay connected to him and to ventilate and also to be witnessed by other people reading the blog. So towards the end of the grief group, I noticed sort of the transformation that occurs. And that blew my mind. It blew my mind to sit there at our house, parents who have lost a child group last two years. And by the end of two years, I saw like the light flickered back in most of the people's eyes.

And I saw the transformation. I certainly saw it in myself as well. And that's when I said, I have to do this. This is why it was a calling. And I've never had any sort of a calling other than being a writer. But it was a calling. And I said, I have to do this. I have to be on the other side of the table helping people like us. And that's how I got to sit on the other side. And as I said before, it's people go, that's good. That's such a good thing you're doing this. And they don't understand what we get out of this. They don't understand, not just the reward of it, but it helps us continue to heal because we have some distance. And it's just, I always say, I'm getting more out of this than they are. And it's an honor and a privilege to help them go through the journey and to help them transform. But I'm certainly, I'm getting plenty out of this.

Yeah, and you're on the journey with them. I always say I'm a participant facilitator. 100%. I'm leading, but I'm also. And it's funny because I'm wearing my therapist hat, right? And then I'm also wearing the mama hat, just like you're wearing the grief educator or coach hat and the dad hat. I remember the first time when I decided to be of service and I have this fantasy of creating

this show called Parents on Purpose, because to me, it's one of the most beautiful parts of healing, not just all the parents I've met who have lost children or other loved ones to death who have taken that, whatever that thing was and transformed it. And part of their healing again and again and again seems to be turning pain into purpose, right? Whether it's doing something like you're talking about, or it may be like creating a turkey run in your loved one's name or a memorial garden or a new legislation. But I also see so many people, not just parents doing it when a loved one has a chronic illness or an accident. It just seems time and time again that the pain can be such a beautiful catalyst for a new level of

purpose. And I remember when I decided to do, I decided, okay, I'm going to step into healing mamas first because to me, and you may argue with me being a dad, but to me, like if mama is okay, the rest of the family finds it easier to be okay as well. Not that the dads aren't important or men aren't important, but no arguments. I'm a mama too. And we need the men to be okay too. They're modeling that and they need to be present. But I was like, okay, I don't know how I'm going to start. I'm just going to put a post on social media saying, be at Tower 25 on Santa Monica Beach at 1 p.m. next Sunday if you're a grieving mama and you want to come to a meetup. And I just kind of went to the beach and waited. And when I saw these 10 women walking down the beach,

I started sobbing because I realized, holy crap, like this isn't just being of service. This is for me too. I have to be in a community of other people who intimately understand your pain, Even if nothing else happens, that is unbelievably healing. And then to heal together and then to be able to help facilitate healing. So I totally get that kind of unwitting, unintentional, pain-to-purpose process. And I think it's a really beautiful part of healing and helping. Yeah, and just what you just said, I literally had that this morning where I met this guy who also lives close by. and he was telling me his story and I saw he started to tear up and then cry and then I'm

sitting opposite and I'm eating eggs and I'm crying with him and I told him I go it's so good that we're doing this together and he was also very much open about it and it's just you know most guys you know they have to sort of show that they're tough and they don't want to share their emotions and it was just a pleasure to sit there crying with this other guy oh that's beautiful yeah i think we need more of that we all need more of that yeah i think so too now you mentioned that you and you talked about this during your presentation too and i'm with you here we talk a lot about the metaphysical on the language of love and you have shared a lot about your ongoing relationship and connection to your son on the other side. And one of the ways I believe that

that began for you, maybe it was starting before that, you'll have to let us know, was when you did a medicine journey and you write a lot about that in the book and you've written other pieces in the media about it. So I was wondering if you could share, because that's something that I know people are really interested in in general, but in particular around grief and loss yeah we can start with psychedelics but let's also speak about psychic mediums as well because i think both things are interconnected yeah they are but after i think it was after a couple of years i uh you know i felt that i needed to and before let me just preface this whole conversation that what i'm gonna say is sort of uh larry woo woo talking and i always feel like

it just sounds crazy to me. It's not going to sound crazy here. Believe me, I talk about this shit all the time. To me, it's not, whoa, whoa, it's the truth. For me, it is too. And I'm being a little facetious, but I've caught myself a number of times among non-believers and they look at me like I have two heads. And also, I guess the other preface I'd like to say is that my experience was my experience. And when I tell the story, other parents hope that they're also going to hit this jackpot that I was able to hit and it doesn't work that way at all. So that's why I'm going to preface it. Anyway, long story short, I always had a high death anxiety. I just really just, it would really freak me the hell out. And I stumbled upon watching Fantastic Fungi

doc on Netflix. And I saw the cancer patients there who no longer had the death anxiety after doing a trip. And I said, I have to try this. So I went to Ojai, of course, the woo-woo capital of California. And I knew of a guide who my wife knew. And I did several trips with her. But the most profound transformative trip was the second time I did it. And I did around three grams of psilocybin mushrooms. I then proceeded to sit outside in her beautiful backyard under a Buddha. And when the psilocybin kicked in, that Buddha started to transform in front of me. And the first thing I saw was someone who I immediately recognized as Rob, as Rob Spirit. And he did not look anything like he looked in life. He looked like an old man with sort of

feline features, and he was wearing a beanie and John Lennon glasses. But I immediately knew it was Rob. And right before my eyes, the Buddha started to grow and shine. And it was the most magnificent thing I've ever seen. And I remember saying out loud, oh, my God, you're beautiful. And the thing just kept growing and growing. And I knew I was in his presence and it just felt so good. And then subsequently, I saw my father and my mother, who have both been gone for 40 years. I saw my own spirit, which was a warrior. And that was an incredible reminder of who I was. And then I also had an ego dissolution where I died. And, you know, that's the crazy part, I think, when you tell that to people, because it really felt like I was watching sort of a puzzle

and I was watching the pieces disentangle from each other, including myself. And then I was in this weird buzzy white space and then i snapped out of it and turned to the guide and i said i just died and it was fucking amazing it was so great and then i need to get back to it so what i like to joke but it's true i hit the magic mushroom jackpot that day i mean like any every box was clicked off and and frankly i've had many other experiences none like that one So, again, that's not if you're a bereaved parent and you're going to do this. Yeah. Don't expect that. You might not have this. Exactly.

And then, you know, many people say many elements of all of those things. And let me just clarify so that people understand you did not actually die. You had the experience, which I have actually experienced through meditation, deep, deep, deep meditation of you kind of disassociate from your personality. And you are no thing. You are nothing, you know, everything. And you're just bathing in oneness. So it sounds like a version that you experienced. And so after that, and obviously, I'm sure you like you said, you've done journeys since then. But I think there's a couple of things I want to drill down into. One is that what I find for many people is that, and there are other ways we're going to get into about, and maybe you can share some of these too from your experience of how to connect with our loved ones without needing plant medicine or MDMA. And obviously if you do do a journey and you have this, when you talk about your guide, it's really ideal to do it with a guide who is integrating things with you and guiding and supporting you versus just like tripping on your own. Correct. This is not doing shrooms with your friends. Yeah. Yeah. It's really intentional. And that's becoming, you know, there are many people getting certified. Some of them are charlatans, but there are a lot of really great people out there that are intentionally doing this work. And I know the people you're talking about in Ojai, because I asked you about them and I've spoken to them.

And they are they are doing really intentional work, too. But after that, was that because you alluded to the medium, too. Was that the first time you had really connected with Rob or had there been had you already connected with his spirit and other ways? And this was just a new way that you were doing it. the latter. I had connected through going to several psychic mediums and having some unbelievable experiences, particularly with one woman who is now too expensive for me to go to again, but she's fantastic. And she told me things that blew my mind. She told me one thing in particular that will move me to tears because it always does. And she said that my father, who I did not have a good relationship with in life, who's been gone for 40 years, was there to help Rob transition to the other side. And when she said that, I just started to bawl. And I just could not. And not only did I start to cry, but in the moment, I felt like I

forgave my father for everything that he didn't do as a father because he was there for my son. And it was just beautiful. And along with that, she said that I would become a healer. And this was before I became a healer. You're like, what the hell are you talking about? A hundred percent. And she said, and I believe this now, she said that Rob will be helping the children of the people that I am helping on this side. And I tell that to everybody I speak with, and I believe that to be true. So those were my sort of previous experiences before doing mushroom journeys. Yeah. You know, we have a lot of psychic mediums. I'm lucky enough to have many evidentiary mediums. When we say evidentiary mediums, what I mean by that is that they will tell you things that can

be corroborated, that can be confirmed that no one else could possibly know. Like it's impossible. And we've had several of them on the show. Susan Graw is one of them. A lot of them that have even done readings on the show and spot spot on. So obviously there are a lot of fakes out there. I always say that if you can have an experience either through a really good medium or a medicine journey or something where you can connect to your child or your loved one on the other side, that is, and I want to ask you about this, in my experience personally and just even professionally, that is like 20% of the healing right there because now you like have clear confirmation that energy can't be created or destroyed.

It only changes form. We know that from physics, but you have the real experience that love continues, that you're the essence, the energy, the energetic signature, the soul signature of your loved one, which came to you in the form of a John Lennon, feline, magnificent being, right? But the energy, the essence of them remains and that you can continue a relationship with them. most of us have no idea how to move through loss there's no roadmap to follow when you're trying to navigate grief and I realized this when I lost my son three years ago as a therapist who

understood grief a whole new level of pain opened up to me when I lost my 16 year old son and since then I have been building resources that have allowed me to navigate through loss not only in a healthy way, but in a way that has transformed me for the better. We can move through the most terrible loss with grace. And that's why I have created the course, Good Grief, Healing from Loss with Love. You can find it on my website, drlauraberman.com,

right there on the homepage, as well as free resources, letting you know how to support others who are going through loss. None of us has to do this alone. And so I want to ask you, like, how did you and how have you continued a relationship with Rob since those experiences? Well, before I get to that, I just want to add one thing, and that is I have chosen to believe in certain things. I've made choices in my grief, and that's what I tell the people that I've been coaching or counseling.

that at some point in time, maybe it's not the first year, it's different for everyone, but at some point in time, you come to the fork in the road and you have a choice in how you want to go forward in your grief. I made choices. I chose to believe that there's an afterlife. I chose to believe that there's now a higher power. I didn't believe in any of these things before raw past, but I chose to believe because it gives me great comfort to believe. That's important to say, but you've also had confirming experiences. Now, I guess that where attention goes, energy flows. And if you have a story, you're going to find evidence for that. But I do think, and this is one of the coolest things to me about grief. I mean, obviously,

we give it all back to have our loved ones back. But one of the gifts of grief that I see happening time and time again, and it's exactly what you're describing, is that from the depths of pain, out of pain, you're willing to crack open a door that you've never even considered or wanted or been willing to crack before. And as you look through on the other side, whether it's that medium reading or plant medicine or just a metaphysical experience or an undeniable sign or something happens and you peek through that open door and then you discover an entirely new world, that what I've come to believe, and this is just a belief obviously, is from my experience talking to so many people, is that grief is one of the most potent and powerful gateways to

awakening there is. Because for many people like you who were never on this journey, you would have never been on this journey, you would have never had a spirit, you know, I think you've had a spiritual awakening and it came from the pain of that loss. That's why you were willing to open the door. And then what you saw on the other side kind of not only blew your mind, but gave you immense comfort. So you explored more and more and more. And then that leads to, you know, there are many paths to spiritual awakening, but I'm discovering that tremendous loss is one of the most potent ones there is. Oh, 100 percent. I mean, I used to I said when Rob died, he cracked me wide open. And one of the gifts he gave me was I've been open ever since I've been open and I

was not an open person. I used to I was in therapy for a million years and I used to go to my therapist and I said, this is the way I feel on this tight fist. And all I want to do is go like this, open my fingers. And why can't I open my fingers? So it took Rob to open my fingers. And I do feel that being cracked open also, it transforms you. And I feel I am transformed. I'm a better version of myself. I am the best version of myself I've ever been. And I'm certainly still on the road to improvement. But there's a lot of gifts that we have that we're unaware of when we're going through the pain of it. And I think that openness is probably the greatest gift. Yeah. When the worst thing happens to you, your, your ego can no longer

function and defend you. It just kind of, that's what I think causes the breaking open. It's like, I call them AFGEs, another fucking growth experience. These things break you open and break you apart. And you do, and you can, you know, I always say if you're brave enough to go into it, whether it's the healing or the pain or whatever is needed to move through into it and through it, you cannot come through it without being a more tapped in, tuned in, more evolved version of yourself. It's a major metamorphosizer. So I love that you're describing the same thing. One of the things, well, so we didn't talk, I want to first, I was about to dive into something else, but I never, we never got into the way that you've continued your relationship with him.

talk about that for a minute. Yeah, lots of ways. I mean, it started with writing. It started with writing every day. I would write Rob letters. I talked to him every day. I have pictures of him in the house. And I think I just intuitively, fully immersed myself and leaned into my grief and leaned into the pain, not knowing that it was just the total, this is me. This is the way I live in the world and I threw myself in it and, and felt it deeply. But one of the things I've learned going through it is that we don't need to, we don't need to stay connected to our child and still suffer. And I don't look backwards anymore and I don't future trip. I am very much in the moment. And I like to say with Rob, Rob was difficult. I mean, we just went through hell

with him. And I don't need to relitigate any of that hell anymore. I said I did my 10,000 expert hours of Rob and I'm good. But I hang on to all the good in him. I hang on to his essence. And when I talk to him and I talk to him every day, that's who I'm talking to. I'm talking to all the goodness that that was in him that is in his spirit. Yes. And that's what we take with us. Exactly. And why, you know, I just felt, you know, I was telling this guy this morning, like the self-inflicted wounds that we give to ourselves, that's the one thing that I feel we can get a handle on. And if you sort of want to reframe things, but I was just telling him, you don't need to beat yourself up to stay connected to your child. Do you think that's why, I mean, I'm sure that's one of the reasons people do it, but what you're alluding to is pretty universal for any griever, I think, but especially for parent grievers, that this idea of guilt and self-blame after the loss of a child in any way. I mean, I've gone through every millisecond of Sammy's life thinking about the things that I might have, could have, would have, should have done that might have changed the dominoes falling the way they did ultimately. And I know that with a child who dies by suicide, that's definitely there too.

I mean, any child, even if the child died of cancer and you got the best treatment in the entire world, you would still feel guilt and shame. So one of the things that we've talked about sort of mediums and plant medicine journeys and how powerful that piece was in terms of opening the door to staying connected to our loved ones on the other side. What other strategies, techniques, tools, whatever, have you discovered that really assist on the grief journey? I think the first thing I tell people is whatever they're feeling is totally cool and totally right. And they're not crazy. And even though they think they're crazy because they're balancing all the different emotions, I try to normalize their feelings more than anything. And I feel I do that constantly. And I guess that's sort of the coach part is to tell them that, A, they're going to be OK and B, whatever it is, it's fine. It's absolutely fine. There's no there are no stages. There are no steps. There's, you know, whatever you're feeling is good. And I feel people need to hear that, especially when you're if you're not part of a group, if you're not seeing a therapist, you're all by yourself. And most of the time, especially early on, you think you're going crazy and they're not going crazy, as we know. So I think that's sort of the first thing that I tackle. And I spend a lot of time on that. Yeah. I think the next thing is the self-inflicted wounds. And I tell them again that I tell them that how would their child want them to proceed in life? And it's such an obvious question. And we all know the answer, but they need to hear it. They need to hear it. And then they need to say it. They need to say that their child would only want them to be happy. Their child would only want them to find joy in their life again. They would not want them to suffer for the rest of their days.

and I like to put that on the front burner for everyone that I speak with because I think it's just so important. I think I saw you post something on Instagram and it was something that I've written about as well and that is to allow joy in again and it's such an important message because as you know in the beginning we are just such a we're devastated it's a shit show And yet and yet we can still balance the sorrow with the joy. So I sort of hammer those points almost every time I speak with anyone because I just think they're they're so important. So what about this question of guilt? Because it's to me, like the closest I can get with people, and this certainly helps me, besides the direct communication I've been able to have with Sammy himself, but is that like, look, and I remember David Kessler, the grief expert saying this to me as I was like, well, should I have maybe not moved to LA? I'm thinking maybe I should have done this. I should have, blah, blah, blah, you know, all the things.

And he's like, look, I could give you a thousand parents who have done exactly what you think you should not have done and who have not done exactly what you did that you think you shouldn't have done and their kids died too. And it's all so arguable and there's so many possible explanations and that does help. But to me, one of the greatest roadblocks for people in healing from any loss is the guilt and shame. Are there any other pearls that you have found really helpful? Yeah. I can tell you what worked for me and what I tell people. And that is, for me, I knew that Rob had a mental illness. He had bipolar disorder. He was depressed since he was a little boy. He was an alcoholic. And we knew it. We could never get a handle on it in life. He wouldn't allow that. and I put that in the forefront of my brain and it was almost the skeleton key

that unlocked how I was going to deal with his grief because A, the other thing that I tell people is like no matter what we say, we're not bringing our kid back or there's no going back here. So mental illness to me just answered every one of my questions. It took away my guilt

because I felt I and my ex-wife did everything in our power to keep him here. So that removed everything for me. It became a little bit of a smoother ride once I was able to acknowledge he was mentally ill. The mental illness got what it wanted and took Rob away. And I don't have to feel guilty because I know I've done, I did everything and more. And I hear that from almost every parent I speak with that they did everything. And even if you have a story that you could have taken him to a different doctor, whatever your story was that someone might have, what I always come back to, and I do this for myself too, is if your intentions were the very best, you were doing the very best with what you knew at the time and what you were capable of doing at the time and you had the best intentions, that's all any of us can do. And there are millions of children whose parents did the same thing. And there's not a direct correlation between that those things or lack thereof and someone dying because there's just more people whose kids didn't die than died and vice versa.

So I think that's something I rest in a lot. Even with my living kids, we know they're now getting to the age, especially the eldest one, where he comes back, which I want him to do. And I am doing my very best to be grace-filled and receptive to it all without hating myself or getting annoyed with him, because I am hearing a lot about all the ways I fucked up. And so I've been struggling some with that, like feeding myself up like, God, to a certain extent, he's right. I was so codependent back then that I didn't see X, Y, Z, or I didn't handle ABC the way I could have or should have that would have helped him so much more. And I just do the same thing. Like I know back then, like I had every cell in my being wanted to show up in the most supportive and effective way for him. I just was a much more damaged version of myself back then. So my resources were limited, but my intentions and my love and my resources, it was at the top of what I had, you know? So I feel like that's a really important piece for not just for parents who've lost children or who have children or facing some of the things they messed up in their children's childhood, but just for anyone who's struggling with the woulda, coulda, shouldas. Yeah, I agree. I say woulda, coulda, shoulda can go fuck themselves. Amen. I always say go shit on your shoulda. Put your shoulda away. So let's talk about, because we alluded to this earlier about how there's so few men when we do these grief groups.

I hear from women all the time and I'm planning, actually, I haven't gotten my act together to actually choose a date and place, but I am planning a couple's grief retreat because I hear from so many women, please, will you do, you know, I'm healing so much or I want to heal or I'm on this journey and my husband is not. And so you started something called Grief for Guys. Tell us about that. I did. And I did because I when I run grief groups for parents who have lost a child, there's it's 90 percent women, sometimes 100 percent women. There's one guy in the group. The guy is there because he's there to support his wife and his wife insisted he come. The guy does not share or if he shares, he shares in the fewest amount of words.

And that's the way a lot of guys are. And I just felt like I know lots of guys and I know lots of guys who have lost their children and guys have very, very deep feelings about it. However, they don't like to show those feelings, particularly to other people, particularly to women. And they need to show that they're strong and they're not vulnerable. And it's bullshit. Of course, they have deep, deep feelings about this. And I find they are comfortable sharing those feelings with someone who has been down the road a bit. me and someone who you vibe with me and someone who you feel comfortable sharing sharing stories but as soon as i vibe with some guy they open up just the way women open up and it's just strange to me that it feels like anachronistic it feels like the whole sort of john wayne of it all which is like, you know, when I was a little boy, John Wayne was, you know, the symbol of masculinity. And it's just, you know, here we are, whatever, 60, 70 years later, and guys are still like that, which is just so crazy. And yet they are. And at the same time, they have deep, deep feelings. And

I cry with them almost every time we're on a Zoom call or walk on the beach. I wind up crying together. And what's wonderful about doing this is what's different than maybe what you do or other therapists do is I become friends with a lot of people that I start coaching because it's such an intimate conversation and we're sharing our deepest, deepest dark secrets sometimes. But to this day, I don't know if guys will sort of share in a group of other guys. I find, at least for me, it's been more of a one-on-one experience than it has been a group experience. So that's what you mean. So grief for guys is guys meeting with grieving men meeting with you. Yeah. And what's happened, of course, since the book came out is, guess what? Women want to talk to me, too. And mainly because I've had a similar experience to them. But I think there's a real misconception like, you know, that guys are not emotional. Guys don't cry. And we're highly emotional and we do cry. And we just and, you know, and I'm an easy cry. So I cry at the drop of a hat. And I find almost every guy I speak with cries. And I tell them, it's so good that we're crying, that we're crying together. It's so good.

It's so good for you. It's so good for your nervous system, for your healing, for your connection. And one of the things that I always try to help, and I'll just mention this for peeps listening, and also maybe you can use this if you don't already, because I'm sure you have found this, that after we have a big emotional release, it actually, like a good cry or have shed some tears or really moved some emotion, it actually increases, raises our body's energetic frequency because we're all pure vibrating atoms. And our loved ones on the other side, when they're no longer in the density of these bodies, we are vibrating at such a high frequency that no human could ever match. That's how psychic mediums connect to them as they kind of either raise their own vibration really high, or they almost leave their body with their consciousness to connect to the other side. So what I very quickly realized as I dove deeply like you all the way into the pain was that when I had a really big release, not only did I feel lighter and better, but that was when Sammy would come in. That was when I could access him more. So I think that a good cry not only helps move some energy, emotion, energy out of your body and helps you feel lighter and clearer, but it actually serves a secondary purpose of clearing the way for more direct communication.

Oh, I love that. I wasn't aware of that. That's great. What I wanted to say about psychic mediums and psychedelics is I've gone to many psychic mediums and I've had a lot, a lot of readings and they bring Rob in. And the last one was really good. And I had this feeling that I don't want to bother him anymore. I feel like, seriously, I feel like I have called him in a number of times. I'm good with him. He sounds good. And I'm okay. I don't need to go to another psychic meeting. I feel like, you know what, he's on his journey. I'm at peace with it. He's at peace with it. It's all good. And it's the same thing with psychedelics. I was going to do sort of, I'd like to do a tune-up once a year. And I went up to Ojai a couple of months ago. And there was a whole miscommunication, not worth getting into. But I wound up, it wasn't mushrooms. They were doing another medicine.

And I said, I don't want to do this other medicine. And I wound up going home. And it hit me on the way home. and it hit me like, I don't need to do psychedelics anymore. I'm good. I am good with Rob's spirit. And it took six years, but I feel that. So I feel like I did a lot of work. I did a lot of otherworldly work, and I'm good. I love that. I'm the same way. I feel like there's very little, and some of my best friends are evidentiary mediums, and they'll give me, if I wanted, every time I talked to them, they'd probably give me a message or two.

But the truth is, I feel like I know everything that he would have to has or would have to tell me about where he is, what he's up to, how he feels, what happened, how he feels about what happened, how he sees it, our relationship, all that kind of stuff. But what it really is, and I think you are kind of speaking to the same thing, is that through my own awakening and my own metaphysical healing as part of my overall healing through this process, I feel like I have more of a direct line to him. So I often say, give me, you know, I'm really missing you today. Give me a sign or I'm listening to a Spotify mix that I can't predict the next song. And I say to him, you choose the next song and give me a message about X, Y, Z. You know, I still play with him that way or ask for him if I am really needing, you know, if my human heart is just really aching for him. And I'm learning, which I love what you really, you know, I really touched me what you were saying earlier about connecting with him, not as the young man who was such a tortured soul with some struggles, but as this wise feline sage that he is now. I am learning. I am learning now. It's requiring a real shift. I was at dinner the other night with a psychic medium and some other people that I didn't know, this woman who's been doing it for 50 years and she's retired. She's 80 years old. She's a spitfire. And she looked at me and she said, tell me about Sammy. And so I, and what happened to him? So I tell her the story and

she's like, why aren't you connecting with him more? And I said, well, you know, I do connect with him in the ways I just described to you. But I don't really have, I'm noticing a desire for more of a two-way communication with him. And I know he's supposed to more direct, I know he's guiding me for sure. And I know he's helping a lot, but I feel like I need, I'm ready to have some more direct guidance, but I'm not sure why. And she said, why did you move away right then? And I was like, what do you mean? I didn't move away. And she said, he's standing right next to And as you were saying that, you moved away from the left. I was like, I didn't even realize I did that.

And then I really thought about it. They all went on and talked and I was in my own little world, just really dropping in. And I was like, oh, oh, like I can't, I'm having a really hard time. It's a whole new level of letting go, letting go of him as my sweet little 16-year-old boo-boo. He's not that anymore. His energetic signature is still that, but he is not that. He is the wise, brilliant sage that's connected to all there is with access to all the wisdom of the universe. And I have to make that transition. So I said that to her and she's like, oh, he's really smiling. He likes that. You know, he really does see himself as one of your guides. And I think you just need to tell him about this struggle and ask for his help. So that's what I've been doing. No, that's great. And another thing about when I was doing psychedelics that I found about Rob, and I believe this, that we have been connected together through so many lifetimes. We are fellow travelers, and we have been together for many, many lives, which feels so beautiful. And a thought that never even entered my mind before. It really didn't. But I know that we've been on this journey for a long, long time and we'll continue on this journey.

This is just a blip on the screen. Yeah, I remember when Sammy, he must have been in third or fourth grade, and my mother had just died. And that was, he was real, they were really close to my mom. So this was the first real loss. And he and his little brother asked me, what happens when you die? And I was like, well, I don't know. Nobody knows, but I can tell you what I believe. And what I told them, because I believed it even then, even more so now, but I said, my explanation is that we all have this soul. I explained to them what I thought a soul was. And I said, and, you know, before we came here, like we all got together and we decided you were going to be the babies. I was going to be the mom. We were going to have this life together. We've had many lives together, but in this life, you were going to be the children and I was going to be the mom. And you were going to, and you were choosing me as a mom because of things that you wanted to learn and that I would do things to mess up or to not be the best mom, even though I want to be so that you could like learn what you need to learn and so Jackson my littlest one looks at me he's like all right mom

well so will you he was probably like in second grade when you die will you wait for me so that we can come back again together and I was like okay I didn't get into the quantum fact that there is no time on the other side yes I will wait and then sweet boy Sammy said to me he looked at me he's like I must have not done anything bad or he goes I must have not needed to learn anything in this life because i got parents like you wow i mean i hold on to that so freaking tightly that even his little child stuff and lord knows i did a lot of shit wrong but i think about that all the time when i'm having those hard times and i really do believe that that's true that it's all we won't know what the plan is or what it was or what we were what

the purpose of all this was until we get on the other side too. But I know part of the purpose was so that you could be doing this work that you're doing, Larry. So thank you for all your help. It's been a pleasure talking to you. It's so cool. You too. The book is called A Space in the Heart, A Survival Guide for Grieving Parents. It's a memoir that is also full of advice and where else we'll put the it in the show notes where else can people find you larry i think they can find me at grief for guys.com or i would give out my email if i can because i i love to correspond with readers and it's l and my last name l-c-a-r-l-a-t at gmail.com okay we'll put that in the show notes you'll probably get a lot of emails

I'd love it. All right. Thank you. This has been fantastic. Thank you.