Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Breaking the Hold of Parent-Child Codependency

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

Parent-child relationships can be loaded at every age, especially when there is codependency involved. This can lead to complicated and draining dynamics that last well into adulthood.    In this Language of Love Session, I speak with a listener who also happens to be my college roomate, Maryanne!. Maryanne is stuck in the cycle of trying to navigate a co-dependent relationship with her aging mother who is entering dementia and impossible to emotionally satisfy. For years she has struggled with this situation, feeling compelled to drop everything and put her own needs aside to be there for her mother. Now that Marianne’s father (and her mother’s caretaker) has passed away, the burden of emotionally caring for her mom has fallen solely to a Marianne. And her mother’s endless need for soothing and company is taking over Marianne’s life. In this Language of Love Session, we’ll talk candidly about how Marianne’s past relationship with her parents is impacting her current relationship with her mother. I give her direction on how to finally set boundaries, stand up for her inner child who still longs for an advocate, and begin embracing the life (and peace) she deserves. If you’re a child and find yourself struggling to set healthy boundaries with your own aging parent(s), tune in as this show is just for you! You can still be a wonderful child and caretaker to aging parents without losing yourself in the process.  Resources and Links Dr. Laura Berman Language of Love Podcast Laura Berman Instagram – Dr Laura Berman Facebook – Dr Laura Berman Youtube.com – Dr Laura Berman  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Marianne, welcome. Thank you. So full disclosure, let's just start off by saying

who you are to me. You're not some stranger. You're not just a listener, although I'm sure you listen religiously to the language of love. But Marianne, guys, is one of my besties, oldest friends. She is one of my college roommates from the University of Vermont back in the 80s. And she probably, along with our other roommates and friends from back then, knows more about me than a lot of people, right? And you have probably many good stories. If anybody put you on the spot, I'm sure you could tell them some juicy ones. Not that you would, of course, but in the best ways, right? And my guess is you probably also tell them that I've always been a sexpert. I've always been a little over the top and intrusive. I probably haven't changed that

much since college in many ways. I'm still a champion belcher and farter when I need to be. But what we are going to be talking about is something much more serious. And Marianne and I have been talking a lot. I mean, we go through phases and we all know that with old friends. And Marianne, you and I have always said this, that we can go for months, sometimes even longer without speaking. And then that's the kind of friendship we have that as soon as we talk. Right. Yeah. It's like no time has passed. Yeah. Just pick up where we left off. So and then we also go through phases and stages where we're connecting and communicating all the time. And often that is because one or the other of us is going through some shit storm. Right. Right. And

so as you recently, I went through my shit storm, as we know, a couple of years ago, you now are going through your shit storm. And that has brought up some really important conversations where I finally said to you, you know what, what you are struggling with feels so related and relatable to so many of my peeps and even what I've been through in my life that I think we should do an episode about it. And you were sweet enough to say, OK, in fact, I said we need to do an episode on codependency in particular with your parents, codependency. And you said, well, I'm the poster child, right? That's what you said. This is true. Yes. Just as a little bit of background, and then we're going to dive into this. So Marianne's dad, Fred, who was one of

literally, I mean, I met her parents when I was 18. Okay. So I've known that, you know, I remember them really well. And Fred, who was like the sweetest, kindest, most patient dude, like such a sweetheart. Right. And he was kind of, I would say in many ways, the voice of calm in your house. Definitely. Yeah. And he passed away. How long ago was, I know it was recently, but how long ago did we lose? Three months ago. Exactly. Yeah. Just about exactly three months and he was what 98 I mean no 92 92 so yeah that wasn't really good yeah yeah he was in really good shape he got cancer and he went pretty quickly at 92 well he got a brain tumor but yeah yeah a brain was it cancerous or not I don't know we never found out oh so

he just knew that he had a math on his brain and and uh and then he died seven weeks later so so it was really fast, but you and I were talking all through that time and you were handling it, you were in triage mode, like we all do, you know, and you were handling it so well. And you were saying all the things you wanted to say to him and being with him. And, you know, as well as I know when I say you were handling it so well, I mean, as well as anyone could handle it. Right. But your mom is a different story. Right. And always has been. Right. And Connie is her name. Connie is this is me describing her. I'm not asking you to. But and you can tell me if I'm totally off base here. But Connie has a ton of personality. She's like funny and sharp and quick

witted. And I relate to her in lots of ways because she can be intrusive like I am. She can be impulsive in her choice of words like I am. But and also a little bit like me, although I think she's probably on steroids like this. She doesn't have a lot of boundaries. Right. So this is where the codependency comes in. Right. And so this has been as long as I've known you, this has been an issue. But now that Fred is gone and she's dealing with old age, maybe a little bit of dementia that comes with old age. I'm not saying she has. I don't know if she has Alzheimer's per se or not, But she's, you know, just like what happened with my parents, she's, you know, as we get older, a lot of us start to lose our faculties and she's still got the same controlling,

impulsive, needy nature, right? But it feels like it's on steroids right now. Right. Plus grief. Yes. Which complicates everything. And Fred was her. And dependency.

Yes. dependency on you you mean or on well she was completely dependent on him yeah they were codependent yes and so for the last several years he was taking care of her and she was aging and declining a little bit and he was really doing everything for her and uh him passing has left this huge hole, not only that they had been married for 60 years, but also that this was the person that she was literally physically and emotionally dependent on. And therefore, now that's all being transferred over even with abundance to me. At least I feel that way. Well, she has always done that. I mean, I remember she's always been codependent with Fred

and fred has been a trooper and willing and able and wanting and existing and codependence back with her so somehow it worked yeah but she also i mean i remember her calling you like five times a day in college and requiring like it wasn't like you could say mom i'm going to class now i'm busy i'm about to go out like you would get in so much trouble with her if you didn't make yourself completely emotionally available to her on her terms when she wanted it, she would take it as like, yeah, you were stabbing her in the chest and punching her in the face and disrespecting her and, you know, pull out all the stops. Yeah. And we would all be going out and like you'd have to stay home and talk to your mother or whatever. And then she would create literal like financial

or emotional punishments. Yeah. You did set limits. Right. Right. Right. That was when she was compus mentis. And, you know, just like a lot of our parents, poor boundaries. I mean, I had that too. Poor boundaries, rentified child, making you responsible for comforting her. Like that's always been there. But Fred picked up a lot of the slack. Right. And now that bless his heart, may he rest in peace. May his memory be a blessing now that Fred is no longer here. At least that took a little bit. And by the way, you over the years have gotten, you know, let's say 60% better. Thank you. Thanks for the credit. I'll take it. We won't say a hundred percent better, but you've gotten 60% better, certainly a hundred percent better at recognizing

it. Yes. Right. Like I feel like, wouldn't you say? Yes. A hundred percent, a hundred percent at recognizing it. 60% at establishing boundaries, which I think then became kind of habits, you know, understanding, like I'll talk to you every other day. Yeah. Maybe sometimes every day, but you know, generally every other day and that's fine. No big deal. Which by the way is unheard of in most adult relationships. I'll come visit once a month. Yes. Right. And then, you know, now I'm back to zero again. Yeah. And the important piece of this, which is understandable, her, the rug has been pulled out from under her. Now let's just preface this by saying she has 24 hour caretaker. She does. So

she has responsible caretakers living in the home with her, making sure she is safe and cared for and, you know, to whatever extent they can attending to her emotional needs. But without Fred there, she has now gone back. And without full compass mentis, she has gone and in her grief, she has gone back to ground zero with you and I'm watching it. And she has been sucking you dry. Yeah, I've allowed it. Yes.

Well, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. And that's what I think is so important for my peeps here, because you certainly are not alone in this, you know, and I've shared this with you and I'll share it with these guys that when, you know, I was, I'm a recovering codependent as well. And I was super codependent with my parents and my dad especially could not tolerate his displeasure with me, his emotional rejection of me, his threats of abandoning me, like, you know, would throw me into a tailspin. And when he started really declining and asking more and more and crossing my boundaries and asking more and more and more of me after a lifetime of not

respecting my boundaries, not honoring me as a human being, seeing me as an extension of him and in a source of his comfort rather than the reverse, which is a lot of your mom as well, because your mom, your mom is not just a codependent. And I can say this because I know her. And also because I have one and my dad, she's a narcissist and a co-dependent, right? So she would fly into those rages. She would gaslight. She would do all those things just like my dad did. And so a lot of what I've been trying to say to you over these past few months as you've been struggling to set these boundaries has been stuff that I've learned and practiced with my dad, right? As most of you know, for the past several years, I've been on a pretty

intense grief journey and it's been a path of healing. I've shared lots of that healing with you and lots of the healing resources that I found. And I am so thrilled to announce that I am doing my first ever retreat for grieving mamas. So if you or someone you love is a mama who has lost a child in any way, at any stage, at any age, I would love for you to come join me at 1440 Multiversity in the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, California for four amazing days of beautiful, uplifting community and healing. We've got David Kessler. We've got Paul Selig. We've got Catherine Woodward Thomas. We've got me. We've got body work. We've got organic food, beautiful rooms. go to 1440.org check it out it's right there on the home page I really hope you can join us

so tell me this you say you've gone back to ground zero are you able to set like what happens when you try to set a boundary with her like let's say she want like what is she asking of you now Well, I would say, I mean, there's a lot of things, but for example, physically being with her, it's very hard for her to be alone. And she's not alone because there's an aid there, but it's not the same as having family. And so when I say, I was just there yesterday and I'm going to come in a few days, I'm trying to set a boundary, but it's not tolerable for her. you know, but I need you now. I need it now. I know you were here, but everything is, yes, I know, but, but I need this, but I need this and I'm not feeling well, or I'm, I'm lonely or I'm a lot of it is I'm sick, you know, but it's gutting because it, it ranges from what I see as almost the equivalent of like a child crying as mommy's leaving the house, but you know,

you're coming back to also then oftentimes getting, you know, pulling out all stops of trying to get a rise out of me. So it can start out like, woe is me, but then it can go to, well, you live two hours away and that's your decision. And that's not a good decision. And taking digs at other aspects of my life that are pushing my buttons or, you know, you know, my kids are abandoning me and everybody's abandoned me. And that makes it very hard for me to maintain the boundaries. So what I'm trying to do is talk about it. I'm trying so that I'm like acutely aware of it. I'm trying to stick to them as best I can. So I was there Saturday and I told or I'm coming Wednesday and I'm coming Wednesday.

And there's been parts of me that are feeling a pull that I should really go there tonight. And I could go there tonight and be there Wednesday to take her to a doctor, but I'm not going to because I said I was going to come Wednesday and I'm going to come Wednesday. You know, it's really hard for me. I feel horrible and I feel sad to see

and hear desperation in her voice. And I feel like I am responsible somehow, but it's not fair. And that's why I feel like I'm at ground zero, because I don't feel like I'm able to walk away and just be like, oh, it'll be okay. Don't listen to what she's saying. You can't quiet those voices of shame and guilt really is what she's triggering in you. Like the other stuff, when she starts beating you up about your life, I think you can probably see through that. But when she starts saying you're a bad daughter or you're abandoning her or nobody loves her, those have always, as long as I've known you, which what is it? 40, almost 40 years, whatever it is a long ass time that's what she does yeah that's her tool she and and you can see it and yet at the same time you internalize it and let's just discuss like okay if it were not a

hardship to be with her which let's just face it it's never been super easy going to be with her But now it's like physically and emotionally and psychologically and spiritually a lot. And it's two hours away and you work full time and you have a life and you're going through your own grief and being with her is not soothing and filling and grief healing. It is, in fact, the opposite. Right. Right. So when you're with her, it's not like you're getting any kind of support or connection in a way that feels good or you are just being drained of your internal resources in service to your mother, which I understand. But the reason I'm mentioning all of this is because I want everyone, including you, to understand that if she lived next door and you and it was no hardship to go and drop by and like check on her or take her some food or take her to her doctor's appointment or whatever, like you would do it.

You know what I mean? So it's not like you're saying I was there on Monday and I'm coming on Wednesday because I said that I'm going to keep it's because a if you don't set those boundaries and you don't reinforce those boundaries, you're setting, which is what you're talking about. You don't give in and you and you actually give in on those boundaries. You're consistently giving her the message, just like a child, that if you throw a temper tantrum, it will work. Right. Right. And so that's one reason. But that's not enough of a reason, I think, in many cases. The other reason is because when you were and I saw you doing this, when you were at her beck and call and there as much as she wanted or needed or even a little bit more than you wanted or needed, it was really doing you in. I couldn't breathe. No, you couldn't breathe. You were having anxiety. You weren't sleeping. You were in emotional pain.

You were in physical pain. You weren't able to grieve. And I could see it. And you know, I see weird shit. Like I could see you getting sick. And I don't just mean with a cold. Like I could see you getting really sick because you were giving so much of your life force away without your will. It's so drained, completely drained. And so that is why the

boundaries are so important, right? Because it's about your own self-preservation. And when we are in extreme guilt and shame, it's tempting, especially as women, but I think as anyone, to sort of bypass our limit. You know what I mean? To like push past our physical limit as easily, but we certainly will push past our emotional and psychological and spiritual limit and even physical limit to the extent that we can in the face of guilt or shame or responsibility. Right. Right. So you see it all. And yet what, what we're wanting to support you with is the pain and the upheaval that setting and holding the boundary creates. Right. Right. And so that's what I wanted to like kind of explore and help you with if you're open to it. And I know I've

written you some of these things, but I just want to say them out loud. And I'm speaking to you with my therapist hat on and with someone who loves you hat on and also with the hat on of a daughter who's been in a similar situation. There are really key things to remember and to constantly remind yourself of. Number one, your mother has been offered opportunities every step of the way to build a community, to build a better relationship, to heal her own wounds, to get into therapy, to get into any kind of healing that would allow her to feel less at the effect of the world, less like an ungrounded electrical cord, unless someone else is grounding her. Because part of the reason she's acted this way her whole life is because she is in a constant

state of agitation and pain, right? And she has not accepted any, and many opportunities have been offered to her and invitations have been given to get support, to get help, to build community, to make friends, to build connections that would be leaving her in a very different position right now than she is now, where you are the only human on the planet that can give her support, right? Like quite frankly, and I'm just saying this to all of us, myself included, as I watch my youngest son indifferently leave me to go to college and be like, see, I'm never coming home again, mom. You know, I too have been thinking about this. Like I have wonderful friends, but I'm like, you know what? Like when I am old and gray and suffering and I don't know that I don't want

to count on any of my kids to have to be there. I hope they will, but I certainly don't want to count on them to be my end-all be-all only support because that is way too much of a burden to put on anyone. And so it behooves me not only for my mental health now, but for my well-being in the future to continue to cultivate a community where we support each other, you know? Well, I'll just add one thing if you don't mind, but I think it's interesting that I've been thinking about is I don't have kids. And as I've been sucked in and tangled in this, I've thought to myself, well, what's going to happen to me when I get old and I'm dying and I don't have kids that are going to take care of me, but I'm actually glad that I have not counted on that, you know,

and maybe it's all connected and maybe that's why I didn't end up having, you know, get in. You didn't want to do to a kid what your mom was doing to you. Exactly. And I've thought of that in many different aspects of my life, but in this one in particular too, as you were just saying that you don't want to depend on your kids yeah it's almost as like as though with my mom and and your dad it's like literally that is the act that it was their expectation for my entire life is that like my role is to be a good girl and make you happy and do the right thing and help and and be an extension of me and devote your life more or less to me being happy with you or happy in general,

which quite frankly is really fucked up, right? To have a child with, and many of us have done that. I mean, I didn't, but I know many do have a child with the intention of bringing a human being into the world to take care of you, which is the complete opposite of what having a child is supposed to be about. And quite frankly, completely fucked up in my opinion, in terms of the pressure and expectation and inability for that child to ever fully self-actualize and live their own fully expressed life, you know? And when you're raised in a home with a narcissistic codependent, you, which there are one in the same, because every narcissist requires a codependent in relationship, you are an extension of that person. So your achievements are literally their

achievements. Your failures are literally their failures. The way you look reflects on them. The way you speak reflects on them in their own minds, right? And you are an instrument for their needs, right? You are an extension of them there to support them, to make them feel good about themselves and they will give to you to the extent that they need to in order to get what they need back. And listen, all that I had a dad like that, you know, that and that behavior is not to say that they are evil devil beings, but they had fucked up childhoods and horrible wounds and have never dealt with them. Right. And so they just visited that on their children. But you're Right. Not only did I not have children with that intention or thought or whatever, not only do I not having been on the child side of this want to put my children through this, but quite frankly, having children is not a guarantee that any of them will.

And I can tell you that right now. I don't know that. I mean, one of them died. So he's he probably would have been the one most likely to take care of me. Quite frankly, Sammy, Sammy would have been one and he's gone. And I wasn't even thinking that at the time. I've thought it more recently, but I was like, yeah, of all my kids. I mean, maybe Ethan would, too. Ethan would, too. But but he's a lot more pragmatic and maybe he would, but he would not inconvenience himself in any major way. And I don't think Jackson, I mean, maybe Jackson will grow into it.

But Jackson is like, you're on your own, bitch. You know, like off to his life, which I want him to. Right. But the point is that you can't count on your kids, nor should you count. I mean, maybe as a power of attorney or somebody to like make difficult decisions or to oversee things. So you have someone you trust, but it doesn't have to be a child. It can be a friend. It can be a colleague. It can be a partner. It doesn't have to be a child. And children aren't always equipped to do that. Right. So it's important, I think, to remember and interrupt

me at any time. I know I'm talking a lot, but it's important to remember. And it helped me to remember. Like when my dad was, you know, crying in the hospital, I want my mommy. I'm so alone in the world because I was leaving to go back to my children. A, it was next to impossible for me to just at the time sit with his pain and not be able to fix it and not want to rescue him and not feel guilty and ashamed that I couldn't. But part of that I also knew was because of how he'd conditioned me to take responsibility for his emotional well-being, which no child is supposed to be responsible for. And shame on the parents that teach us that. Right. And your mom did the same thing. And so one of the things I've been trying to repeatedly say to you is that as much

as pain as she's in, this has been her choice every step of the way to end up here. Every step of the way. She was given a choice, many choices, many opportunities, many invitations to create another outcome. And every single time she refused and required and insisted on counting on no one but you and Fred. Right. And that's it. Right. That is a cruel burden to put on you. He was an adult and he signed up for it. Right. And that was his choice. But you did not ask for this or sign up for this. It was a role that was placed upon you and you have continued to carry by choice, but it wasn't something that you signed up for. Right. So I think that's really important to remember that this is her choice. The other thing, because because that to me and you tell me if how

it lands on you. But when I started thinking that way, I was like, you know what? He has never been willing to heal. He has been committed to being a narcissist and selfish and self-absorbed and alienating people his whole life. And now here we are. This is the end result of every decision he's made and all the decisions he's chosen not to make when offered to him. And so it is not my responsibility. It's his responsibility that he got himself here. It's not my I can't fix it. I'm not enough to fix it. And I will kill myself trying to fix it. And it's not my job to fix it because he put himself here. So let me just ask you from that. I have other things to say, but as you hear that, what's your reaction to that? I totally agree. I also think it's still hard to walk out of that room when they're saying everyone's abandoned me and nobody's taking care of me. And I know you have your life,

but I need this right now. I need this. And so therefore you must give it to me and you're giving it to me. And I, and I know you have a life, but my life is more important and it is helpful though, to hear that you, it is helpful to hear you say it because I think when you hear like somebody describing their situation, it's almost more clear than when it's happening to me. And I'm so deeply like entwined in it and trying to pull away. I mean, again, to your point it's not that I'm not taking care like oh you are on it everything yes everything physically and emotionally but like there's no room even for like a breath and and you're right it should not be expected to be my job and my role and I have to somehow manage to accept that you know

really believe it and really practice it well are her needs more important than yours no I mean her needs are being met you know like that but when you said like but her needs she understands I have needs and I have I forget how you put it she feels that her needs are more but do you feel because you are acting or at least experiencing inside yourself like her needs are more important than yours does feel that way yeah but you know intellectually and as the woman you are when I ask you are her needs more important than you no they're not yours no no they are not right so the one in you who is believing her is the little girl who was told time and time again and was actually threatened like it was dangerous to make your needs more important than her needs

her needs were the most important or there were consequences. And when you're a little girl and you're at the effect of your parents and you depend on them for survival, you are scared shitless of their abandonment and disapproval and anger. There are huge consequences there. It's terrifying. So I think that's a lot of what's coming up because the woman you are and you intellectually understand, but there is also one in you who is in that moment, that she's laying it on thick. There's a part, a one in you that believes it. And so part of what this process I think is inviting you to do is what we call, you know, in internal family systems or in our child work or whatever is parts work or, uh, reparenting yourself. Right. So there,

so it's like, let's say she's like four or five years old, this part of you that just feels complete terror and shame and like gobsmacked panic that like, oh, my God, if her needs are more important than me, you know, I have I'm something really bad is going to happen and I'm horrible. And if I'm horrible, I'm not going to keep living or I'm not going to be OK in life. And I'm horrible unless I make her needs more important than mine. Right. And then in those moments and I had to do this all the time. I did it in hospital bathrooms, restaurant bathrooms and home, like wherever I was, I would have to go to the bathroom and talk to her in the mirror. I would just stare into my own eyes until I saw that for me, it was like a three-year-old and a

five-year-old. There were lots of different ages, but I feel like for you, she's like four or five. I mean, there's probably many of them, but I would stare into my own eyes in the mirror until I saw, you can almost feel like you can see into your own eyes and then I'd be like, listen, you got this. Like, this is not something that's your responsibility. I am standing for us. I know you can't, but I am standing for us. I am setting the boundary for us.

I am stepping up for us. I know you're scared, but there is nothing to be afraid of. We are still wonderful daughter. You are so worthy of love. You have been there for her every step of the way. You are still gonna be, but it is not okay to kill yourself in the process. it is not okay for her to ask that of you it is not fair of her to ask that she is wrong

to be asking that of you and so you know that but there's a part of you that is back in the trigger and forgets it and that's the one i think that's causing you so much pain and grief because you're holding both truths at the same time right that's true that is true i am really you're right. I'm holding both. I'm trying to be both. And I think you have to take over the other and like take like you would a little like your niece, you know, or like a little girl, like talking some real truth to her and standing up for her and reminding her that she's safe because she's doing this. She's taking over because this is how she knows to keep herself safe when things are in big upheaval and when she's scared and you're scared right now. Your dad just passed.

your mom's not doing well, you don't know how to handle it all. Of course, you're scared. Right. And when you're scared, she's going to step up and want to take the wheel because that's what she's used to doing. So you have to gently take her hands off the wheel and reassure her that it's not her job to drive. It's yours and that you're going to take care of her and that you're going to make sure she's OK and that she doesn't have to give every cell of herself away in order to get love and she doesn't have to exhaust herself or make herself sick in order to be worthy of love. That's not the way it's supposed to work. Right. I feel compelled to want to like tell her that, you know, I like try to explain that to her, but it doesn't. No, you are dealing

with someone. You know how much I love you and how much I love Connie. I really do have deep love for her, but she's mentally ill. She always has been mentally unstable. Yeah. And now she is mentally unstable in the throes of tremendous codependent withdrawal, grief and the onset of dementia. OK, so she is not sane right now. God bless her. But trying to reason with someone like that is spinning in the wind on steroids, right? There is zero way she's going to hear you. There is less than zero way it will land and it will not be retained even under the insanely miraculous circumstance in which a little part of it did land because she doesn't really have even the memory. And the reason you want to say this to her is because you have a very unrealistic

fantasy and that desire that she will be able to hear and be like, oh, you know what, Marianne, you're off the hook. Even though it's been over 50 years that I've been doing this to you and I'm mentally ill and in the throes of dementia, I totally hear you. You're a wonderful daughter. You give me and do so much for me. I see you. I honor you and I will respect your boundaries. Correct. I wish that would happen. Well, someday, may she live to be 150. She will from a higher perspective. I do think they get that, but she ain't going to get it in this life. She's just not. Which brings me to my other point, which is actually a helpful piece of this. And I remember finding this helpful with my dad because when his dementia started, because not only will you never be able to fill up her bank of need with coins of connection, like it will always be in the red. it is never, it has never been enough. You could be over there every single day and it still won't

be enough. It is never, ever, ever enough. It never has been as long as I've known you. Okay. You could talk to her 20 times a day and the 21st time you couldn't take her call, it didn't matter that you talked to her 20 times a day. And that was before she started losing her memory. Right. So there is no way that you will ever get the kudos, A. B, and this is really helpful. When you disappoint, A, she's not going to be any more disappointed than she always is. And B, she's going to forget because she doesn't have the memory anymore. Right. So when she flips out on you and says, you're a horrible daughter, nobody cares about me anymore. A day later, that is literally wiped that incident, not the feeling which she always has lived in for your

whole life. But that incident, that exchange is wiped from her memory. So you could spend a million hours with her and that will be wiped from her memory. Or you can take care of yourself and that will be wiped from her memory. Right. So you're giving so much power to the things that someone who has who's going through dementia, who is not mentally well and isn't hasn't been willing to do her healing and isn't going to remember it anyway, you are giving all of your energy away to and feeling full of shame and regret when you don't. So you're literally putting your energy into a colander. Yeah. Now that doesn't mean you don't do it. Like you have to do what feels an integrity to you and you want to be a good daughter and you're a wonderful human being and you are showing

up for her and you're going there several times a week, making the two hour trip there and back and managing our caretakers and we haven't even touched on the fact that your freaking brother is not picking up any of the slack right what he should be doing and if you set some more boundaries and work you know he probably would or he'd have to but that's the other thing is that you not only have taken on this job you've taken on his job too yes i've taken on the whole thing And this is, I think, part of why we're talking about this is like, it is my own doing. Like, yes, there is this person that is sucking everything out of me, but I'm showing up for it. Yeah.

You're opening the wound for them to suck. Yeah. Yeah. And that is, I think, the most difficult and the most enlightening, I guess, part of this graduate course that I'm in right now, hopefully. But it's like, I'm subscribing to this. If I can just make it okay for today, then I'll get to tomorrow. But to your point, tomorrow, the question is, well, when are you coming again? yeah no it doesn't matter yeah it doesn't you're at ground zero you're it's ground every day is every day is groundhog day yeah every day is i have to remind myself i guess every day that like i'm doing enough and i mean i'm i am doing a lot but like it sounds terrible i'm allowed to have my life like i shouldn't feel apologetic that i have a life and a relationship and a job and like

and also that you need space of my own yes it's not just yes so it's not just I have to work or I have a partner that needs me or someone else that needs me it's also about claiming the right to space and your own self-care your own self-care you would have been an amazing mother but thank God, you didn't have kids. I would have fucked them up so bad. Oh, you would have just let them fuck you up. Oh, you would have just let them suck the life out of you. And I think that is the learning here, right? Like you are able to do this. The reason you can't do it is because that little girl in you is the one that's in the driver's seat. She is the one that feels filled with guilt and shame and fear it's real fear and you know it's not rational and over time if you

can just keep reminding her that this is not your fault you are a wonderful daughter you are going to be taken care of you don't have to give all of your time and space and energy away in order to get loved. You are just as lovable. You do so much. And she made this bed that she is lying in and she's going to forget all of this tomorrow. So it's okay. Like you're literally talking to yourself. It's okay that she's saying pissed off. It's okay that she's pissed off. She's going to forget about tomorrow. And even if she doesn't, it's still okay that she's pissed off. Nothing bad is going to happen to you because your mother is furious with you or hurt by you or thinks you're a horrible daughter today. She thinks that every day. There's never enough to

make her stay in gratitude. She might have her moments of gratitude, but they are quickly forgot. Yeah. Right. So this is some sort of commitment you have made to giving your power, your life force, your energy away in search of something that will never, ever, ever come. Yeah. That's a Sisyphean fucked up task right there. It is. And I agree with you that this is like a graduate level task of learning how to, because, you know, you and I have talked through the years, this comes up in so many different areas of your life around speaking up for yourself, saying no, setting boundaries, asking for what you need, not just in your relationship with your mom, right?

Absolutely. And it all stems from your relationship with your mom. Right. God bless Connie. So are you willing to try? And also, so the three things are that we've talked about, right? are, well, four things, one really connecting to that little one in you and soothing her and comforting her and standing for her. Cause she can't, she needed someone like you, the adult,

you to step in. There was no one, right? So she never had any reality testing. She never had any protection. She never had anyone come in and say, Connie, that is not okay. You know, she never had that, right? You can do that for her. Okay. The next thing is to constantly, when you start to feel guilty and shamed. You don't need to say this to her. Right. But inside yourself, because she's not going to hear it inside yourself to remember, to give yourself and that little girl remind her of the grace that this isn't our fault that we're that she's in this situation. Right. And it's also impossible for us to get it out of or out, get her out of this situation, because no matter how much we give her, even if we say yes to this five hours from now, it won't be enough

and it will have been forgotten. So we're going to tap ourselves out and she's not going to appreciate it for more than five minutes. And we're not taking care of ourselves. Right. And it's her fault that she's in this situation. It's not our fault. Right. So that doesn't that that is part of the reason we're not responsible. And then the third thing is, however pissed off she is today. Yeah. Doesn't matter. You get the grace that she's not going to remember it. So let her be pissed. She's not going to, she's going to remember it for an hour and then she's going to forget. Right. As sad as that is, that's, yeah, that's grace. Yeah, it's true. It's hard, but it's true. It's really hard. It's really hard. And I know how hard this is for you, which is why I

wanted to get you face-to-face and put you in front of my audience and on the spot. I've come to learn through you and your incredible network of people that you've exposed me to and introduced me to. And it's that I'm not alone in this, you know, and that there are lots of people who have these, these grew up in these kinds of relationships and families and repeat them and subscribe to them and it's probably was I guess I was like in denial that I would be like back in this situation as I thought I was spreading my wings and you know getting my setting my boundaries and getting in a groove that felt like it was it was a little more balanced, but yeah. And thank God you did. Cause you'd be really fucked up right now if you hadn't

done all that work. Yeah. Right. So it doesn't mean that all of that was for naught because you got years of really healthy evolution from that, but now there's been a curve ball and that happens right with our growth. Now there's been some backsliding on both your parts and her backsliding isn't going to stop, right? The question is, are you able, she may or may not get to the point where she accepts it because she's not compassmentous enough to have the memory to accept it. You know what I mean? Like to remember, oh yeah, we had this conversation. This is the new deal, right? So what you're going to face now is very different. Not only is she in a heightened state with her grief and her loss and everything else and her inability to glom on in codependence

to someone as to the extent that she wants to in the absence of your dad. So that's hard enough, right? But also whatever boundaries you set, she is not only not going to accept, she's not going to remember. So this is like a graduate course on steroids because you are not only going to have to repeatedly set the boundaries, but you're going to have to repeatedly set the boundaries, face her disillusionment, disappointment, you know, pain, whatever, over and over and over again. Boy, did you sign up, but it's going to get, if you commit to it, it will get better and better and better and also easier and easier and easier, I should say, easier and easier and easier. And I'll send you these meditations. But for those of you listening, go to Dr. Laura Berman dot com backslash quantum love to the and go to the meditations and find the grounding meditation and the fortification meditation.

those are two that like if you're going to need to do constantly certainly before you talk to her but even just like throughout the day when the guilt start you know or when you start to leave yourself and abandon yourself coming back into yourself staying in your body staying with yourself repeatedly comforting that little girl in you who's scared and thinks she's a horrible person and is going to die because of it or something bad is going to happen because of it And it's going to get easier and easier to do. That doesn't mean you become numb to it or indifferent to her, but that you can kind of get a higher bird's eye perspective on it.

And, you know, what eventually happened with my dad as I really did this kind of work is that I could be in the presence of his pain and with like a bird's eye view, like I could I could feel tremendous compassion for him. But it was very different than a kind of courted responsibility. Like I'm not OK if he's not OK. Right. Right. That's the codependent energy. And what you're being invited to do with this big kahuna of another fucking growth experience here is to start learning how to be OK. after 50 something years how to be okay even if she's not okay right yeah and that I wish we'd done 40 years ago but it's never too late no it's not I agree and also you know to just not repeat that with somebody else when she's gone you know like I don't yeah the bird's eye view

that's a good one. Yeah. I think it really is important, like looking at it from above and seeing the whole picture, which gets lost when you're in, you know, what happens now is when she goes into pain and rage, you go into your, you get triggered and then you lose your perspective. Right. So that's why. Yeah. Everything is escalated. Every bill, every minute, every meal, every thing, every trip to the bathroom. Part of the reason why it needs to be contained, because I'm telling you, Mary, you are going to get sick, like some sort of bad inflammatory thing, because your cells in your body cannot take this level of chronic emotional and physical stress.

Nobody can. And the degree of stress that you're under with all of this, it's a constant barrage. You know, it's not like you're talking to her once a day and she's like, OK, honey, I'm sad. I can't see you, but come when you can. Like she's in full on torture hoedown with you and you are letting her. So just constantly reinforcing yourself. And the other thing I'll say that really helps with all codependency and, you know, you can count on me and I think you can count on your partner for this and other people is to have allies that are constantly reminding you of this. so that, you know, like I remember having Sam, my husband would constantly, I'd say, okay, remind me again, you know, after I got off the phone with my dad or was feeling really triggered or guilty or ashamed. And he would just be like, listen, just because you're the only sane one in this insane family does not make you the insane one. Like hold on to your truth. Right. And what I would want for you is to be reminded like bird's eye view, which means a, she's not going

to remember B, this is her bed she made and is lying in and C, it's never going to be enough, no matter what you do. So do you want to, do you want to completely drain yourself and make yourself sick given that you're not going to get any credit and it's not going to be any better and it's not going to make her feel any better and nothing's going to get better? Or do you want to take care of yourself a little bit through this? So now you have your marching orders. I do. I wrote them down. I'm ready to practice. I have about five messages on my phone from her from the last hour that I can. I so appreciate you. And I so appreciate this conversation. I so appreciate being part of something that a lot of people are going through

and it does help. It helps me. And I want to continue this conversation because it is very hard, but it's healable. Not only is it healable, if you really work through this, it's going to evolve your soul so deeply. It's going to free you up in so many ways in your life. And we can talk more about this, but one of the things that I think will be helpful to do down the line as you get clear on this is to create scripts for her caretaker to also give her and signs that can be read to her you know that you know are like just touchstones right so that you're the one constantly doing it right she's reminded that you're nearby that you're coming tomorrow yes yes we'll talk more but in the meantime thank you so much love and grace and i thank you for

coming on and being my codependent poster girl. Thank you. Anytime. My heart, you're just like my sparkler