Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Different Words, Different Worlds: Male and Female Communication

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

On today’s episode of “The Language of Love,” Dr. Laura Berman talks about how communication is a muscle that couples have to learn to exercise throughout their relationship. She explains that many of us operate under the assumption that our partners can read our minds and hear our inner monologue, thereby understanding our motivations and our needs as we move throughout the day. But, she warns, our partners often understand our inner lives much less than we actually imagine, which leads to misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and unnecessary arguments. Then, Dr. Berman talks about the difference between the way men and women communicate, and how this can lead to issues between male partners and female partners. Dr. Berman explains that when men communicate, they often have a competitive stance, looking for subtle or not-so-subtle ways to ‘one-up’ each other or be the alpha dog in the room. On the other hand, when women communicate, they generally seek out opportunities for connection rather than competition. Hence, they are not aware of the fact that when they talk to their male partner about a household issue such as forgetting to empty the dishwasher, he is already primed and prepared to be in that defensive stance due to male communication patterns. Hence, even the criticism can feel like an attack on his very character or even his worth, which is why a simple complaint about dishes can blow up into a massive argument. Next, Dr. Berman talks about how communication in the bedroom is positively crucial, especially when it comes to women speaking up about what turns them on and what they need from their partners when it comes to sex.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm Dr. Laura Berman, a sex and relationship therapist. And for the past three decades, I've been helping people learn how to love and be loved better. That's what we're doing here on The Language of Love, where I get to answer calls and emails from people just like you. My goal with The Language of Love is to help you discover more meaningful emotional and physical intimacy and to help you build more awareness of how precious and sacred your sexuality really is. Be sure to email me or reach out with your very own love-sex relationship questions, and I might just answer them live on the air. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love.

I'm excited to be with you all, and yes, there's absolutely nothing off the table with us. I'm going to start with this question to get us going. what is the most common question you're asked when it comes to having a healthy relationship? Where are people struggling or what are those questions or question that you find is a reoccurring question that you get over and over again? Well, okay, so let's just put a pin in the sexual piece because there are specific questions that I, and I'll tell you what those are, but there's specific questions that I get most of the time sexually or most commonly sexually from individuals and couples. And then, you know, in terms of relationships for the people in

relationship, it's usually the biggest struggles are around some aspects of communication, whether it's how to fight more effectively or avoiding fight or not really being able to show up with your authentic needs or wants in a way that your partner, you know, will really support and cooperate with. And because all of us, you know, I would say the majority of us, it's a very teeny weeny portion of us were raised in an environment and in families where we learned how to fight successfully, you know, for the relationship and not just to win, where we learned what to expect from love and what we deserved and how to set boundaries in a healthy way and how to compromise and all the things that are necessary for a healthy relationship.

There's no school for unless you actually want to become a therapist, I guess. And there's very few models of that for us growing up. In fact, most of us grew up in environments that were the opposite of that. And then we're supposed to know how to create that. And what ends up happening instead is that we accidentally start looking for people and attracting in and being attracted to people that kind of match our wounds rather than who, you know, we can really heal with. That's when we get into trouble. Yeah. And, you know, you touched on the C word, which I'll say is communication.

I recently hosted a party for 4th of July and my wife and I, we love hosting parties, but Without question, every party has at least one moment where one of us is mad at the other. Often her mad at me. What was she mad about? So here's the thing. It comes down to communication because in my mind, I was doing something helpful. The intention was there. The right intention was there, but I didn't tell her what my thinking was.

Basically, I started a side. This is actually post-party. So there was something pre-party. But post-party, I took on a side, we have a work project, we need to fix our shower. And so I basically just started working on this side project while our house is still in need of getting back to normal. Disarray. Yeah, because we had, you know, a couple hundred people at our house and it was a pretty big

cleanup job. And she's like, why are you doing this? Like, this is not a priority. And she's right. It isn't. But I, in my mind, I was like, okay, well, I'm doing all these other things. Why not tackle this side project that's been looming that I've wanted to do for a long time? And instead of me communicating proactively, I just went and did it.

And so what advice do you, I mean, hindsight's 20-20. I could go back and say I should have, but I didn't. And, you know, we're fine now. And it was just one of those. Well, did she get angry? I mean, did she get angry or did she say, just put that aside and come help me? Well, she got upset because it involved her having, it involved her having to do more work. Even though I said I would – basically I took –

Well, why didn't she just come get you and say you working on the shower meant that you weren't helping her or you working on the shower created more work? Well, here's the – so this shower is basically a defunct shower in our house. It's become a storage. So I took the stuff out of her shower. Oh, Billy. Because I had to take pictures because we're getting the – I'm in the middle of the postpartum. Yeah, we're getting the shower fixed.

You unloaded the storage. Now the whole truth comes out. I'll just be super blunt about it. So it's been makeshift. We have like some luggage in there and things like that because it's not usable. The shower pan needs to be replaced and it's like three different people. There needs to be a tile setter and a demo crew and then the plumber. Anyhow, I find that out now because I took the pictures and I sent it to some people on Yelp and I said, hey, what's involved?

That's the whole reason I did this. But now she has to go and put all that stuff back. I said I would be happy to do it. But she's like, no, no, I want to do it because she wants to, like, go through it before she puts any of it back. So that's an example of me intending. It's all because I want to do something that's been honestly on my to-do list for some time, and it's to make our lives better. That wasn't the right time. Yeah, it wasn't the right time.

I mean, I think it is just about checking it out first. But I will say that I'm really guilty of what you're saying, too. I assume a great deal in my communication. In fact, right leading up to this, I was sitting here with my husband in our bedroom of this rental house in Malibu. And he's like, you have two minutes until you go on Clubhouse. And I thought he was just sort of watching the time for me. And he has a conference call and other things he's been doing up here because this is the

quiet room in the house. and it just it didn't even occur to me that he wouldn't know that this is where I'm doing this recording you know but I didn't tell him that and he was sitting there looking at me like okay so now you have one minute until your clubhouse and he was here first so he thought I was just coming to charge my phone and leaving to go find somewhere else I was like I know I'm about to oh no, I think I said, when you leave the room, will you close the door? Like, what are you talking about? So I do that all the time. I just assume people are reading my mind. And in your case, you were doing something nice. But if it's a big project, that's going to conceivably,

you know, I think your wife is, you know, I don't know what her birthday is. But let's just say she's very cancer like, you know, she's very organized, and she has a certain way she likes things. And so if you're with someone like that, it's best when you're going to do something that's going to upset the apple cart, including something helpful to just check it out with them about when, you know, hey, is this a good time for me to do the shower? Well, she's a Taurus. Her birthday is May 1st. And you hit the nail on the head. It's assumption that she could read my mind. And if she or when she listens to this episode, she will be nodding her head up and down that like my inner monologue or whatever is going on my that's going under my head she can't hear that

as much as i think she can so how do we proactively and clearly this is something you yourself are also working on so which what should we do i mean what can we do yeah it's a work in progress i think it's about a commitment it's a muscle you have to exercise i mean my my husband just told me last night that he was, if I ever get, if he ever, if we ever get a vanity plate, he's going to make mine whoopsie. Cause I'm always going whoopsies, you know, because I'm always doing something or, or, you know, creating something that is the opposite of what would be convenient. Cause I'm just in my vibe or have my plan. I think it's this personally, Billy, I think it's two things. It's us learning how to manage very creative and quick-moving but slightly ADD minds.

Boy, you hit that one in the head. Yeah, and it comes with a certain level of impulsivity, and that's a beautiful gift. That's part of the reason our partners love us because we are very creative and interesting, and our brains are very fast. But at the same time, we have very, you know, Ferrari brain with bicycle brakes. So we're, you know, several exits down the highway before we announce that we're driving somewhere. So that's really, I feel, and I can't say that I'm a master at this by any means, but it's really about learning, not only our partners being, which I would say my husband's good at, being empathetic and having a sense of humor about it. There's a great book, I'm blanking on the guy's name, but it's called One for Adults with ADD is Driven to Distraction. And his book for partners of people who have ADD is Married to Distraction. happens. But I think it really has to do with exercising the muscle and trying to get as good as possible at impulse control and thinking through your actions before you impulsively do something, which is always well-intentioned, I think, for both of us. And being aware of their,

you know, my husband's not an organized, you know, neat freak like I think your wife is. And I don't say that as a criticism I wish I was a neat freak but so the things that she gets annoyed with are going to be different than the things my husband gets annoyed with that I do but they both stem from an impulsivity issue that is just a side effect of genius if you ask me yeah you're so right on the impulse thing and I think it's it's practicing and understanding when those impulses arise and I guess taking a beat to reflect and decide whether that impulse should be explored or not. Cause you're right. It's part of a zone of genius to a degree as well. I think the other part of it is practicing the communication. Like, Hey, I'm going to do this. And I guess

if I'm being super candid, there's a part of me that knows if I, if I televise it or if I announce it, then it's going to be quickly squashed. And we'll like, like, and the truth of it, probably. Yeah. And the truth of it is we're better off for having done it. She just didn't want to do it at that at that point so there is an element with us ad dears of you know act first ask for forgiveness later that is true and look you also have to have a thicker skin assuming you know it's not a huge relationship issue for her or seriously affecting her quality of life you can't be put on you know just like she has to be more patient with you you also can't you know you got to get thicker skinned about when she gets annoyed you know i think both are true

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That's youquora.com slash love. I see Jude. Jude always has something interesting to add. Jude, do you want to weigh in here? Well, you know, this is interesting because when I was first married to my husband, he's a physician. And doctors are scientists first and then medical. I mean, they're very analytical, which is good because you just don't go in and sell them a symptom and they make a snap decision. They ask a lot of questions around that science.

And when we were first married, I'm very excited about things and very emotional and very always interested and stimulated. And I had to learn when I was first married to him that he needed to, because he's in such a cerebral world, he needed to unwind a bit before I could go into what he really loves about me a lot is my energy and the fact that I'm creative. But I had to tone that down until he could decompress a bit, and then we could have my conversations. And so it was a challenge. I mean, communication, as you know, is the heart of every single relationship, whether it's business partners, relationships, friendships. And so I just had to learn that because there's definitely a different style there, you know, for the the more analytical, the more deeper. Not that we all don't have deep thought process, but I just had to learn a different communication style. Yeah, to kind of go into his cave first and decompress before he could be present.

And I also think it's interesting gender wise. One of the things that my husband is constantly asking slash teasing me about asking of me and also teasing me about is that when I tell him a story or telling him about something, I talk to him like I would one of my girlfriends where I start at the beginning. and then often the plot of the story or the point of the story or the question asking comes at the end and we work our way up to that. But I found this to be very much of the masculine mind and certainly of him that they need the point of the story

before they can, like he says, I need to have the buckets to put the details in. If I don't have the buckets, You tell me all these details and I'm thinking, what's the point? And then by the time you get to the point, I've forgotten all the other details because I've been waiting for the point. So it's very counterintuitive, I think, for me and for many women to get to the point first. But that's how they really like being communicated. Well, and you know what, Laura, this also carries into business because women tend to talk. I forget what the statistics are, but women is something like twenty six thousand words a day. Yeah. And they're like three thousand or something. Yeah. And also our thought process. Sorry, man.

I know there's been in the audience, but women often can have three or four conversations going at one time. And we are aware we are at all times. And my husband would say to me, I can't believe that that's how you talk. And I said, well, I can't believe that's how you don't talk. So it's definitely a learning style. So we could have many conversations about this. Thank you. Thanks for weighing in. This is such a fascinating topic.

I mean, the difference between the way men and women communicate and to be in a successful relationship, acknowledging that there is that difference and distinction is really crucial. Laura, do you have any advice for somebody that wants to improve their ability to communicate with their spouse and recognizing the fact that there is often some, maybe if we're generalizing, there are some fundamentals truths that could exist, like Jude just mentioned. Is there anything proactively a man could do or a woman could do to better communicate with someone of the opposite sex? Well, I think it's, you know, about recognizing first and foremost, because we're

never going to do it perfect. And I don't think we, I don't, you know, as a woman, I want to communicate as a woman. I want to tailor my communication to the man, my man, when I'm talking to him as much as I can consciously, but I also don't want to lose who I am either, right? So it's about speaking each other's language of love. There was a sociologist named Deborah Tannen who wrote a great book called You Just Don't Understand Men and Women in Conversation. And she gets into the sociological and anthropological reasons for this, all these differences, but she discusses everything from like how, you know, if you put, there were these fascinating studies in the late 70s and early 80s where they took little boys and little girls and they watched them, they put them on a stage together. And when you put two girls on a stage, you know, and just like with all these chairs or tables around and just kind of watch them off stage and they're sitting around waiting and left to their own devices, the girls would take their chairs and face them toward each other and just, you know, start talking and shooting the crap and whatever. And the boys would put their chairs side by side and just stare out. And if you look at the analogies, I found this with my boys, my sons, that the times that they will speak most to me, they won't speak to me. If I sit down, I'm like, let's have a conversation.

You know, they like roll their eyes and want to run as quickly as they can. But if we were playing with Legos, fishing or in the car, both facing forward, then I can get them to talk more because there's something she talks sociologically about. There's something for men in that kind of primal caveman way that something about face-to-face contact feels almost emotionally threatening or at least a little bit dangerous to them, whereas with women, that's something that we really thrive on. And there's all these evolutionary and anthropological reasons for that. Also, getting to the point first, also that men often, and she shows this in all sorts of fascinating ways, how easily and how automatically boys and men, and I see this with my sons and their friends, it makes me so uncomfortable sometimes, but for them it's totally normal, how every conversation is almost a competition. So there's a lot of one-upmanship, subtle and overt, mostly unconscious, that goes on in male communication that women, females, don't realize. And so when we talk to each other, that's not what we're thinking.

And so often when we talk to men, we either unintentionally or accidentally don't notice this one upmanship dynamic or don't notice that they feel criticized by some feedback we gave. Because if we gave that feedback to a woman, I'm not talking about a complaint. I'm talking about like an observation. Right. If you said that to your female friends, she would be like, oh, yeah, you're right. I did look to the left when they took the picture. Let me take it again. You know, I'm just making that one up.

But a lot of men will sort of, there's like a defensive stance. And I'm not saying this is true, certainly, of all men. But it's just really interesting when you look at the masculine and feminine and how we interpret things. I've looked up this book as you were speaking, and it says women and men live in different worlds made of different words. And one of the things that is mentioned in the description of the book is that women and men may walk away from the exact same conversation with very different impressions of what was said. So, Warda, over to you. Hi, everyone. So my question is about sex.

I'm sure it's like a common question Laura or Lance has dealt with. without going into too much detail about my relationship I just want to know how do you handle a selfish guy in bed oh no okay have you tried to tell him what you want and he still is just not interested in meeting any of those needs or have you been direct with him many times I've like explicitly said it and he knows he's selfish too and then the way he'll respond is well I'm good in all other things like you have a good husband I always take care of you I do all the chores and I'm like that has nothing to do with this and so it's come to like now it's so bad that I don't even care so I just do it as a chore and but I feel like that that specific

thing has affected my relationship with him so much like I don't know how he wouldn't but he thinks they wouldn't because he thinks but he's such a good guy in other things like he takes care of us he goes why can't he but what but why shouldn't he do all of that I mean what what is his reason for like why what what skin is it off his back to make the little effort yeah I don't even understand it just boggles my mind myself and I was just talking to my friend about it and I read on your Instagram I think you're a sex therapist too and my son was like okay so you would maybe able to tackle it better um she was saying you need to talk to a sex therapist too because he's screwed me up so much because he says oh you take so long you know you take way

too long and it's I get tired and it it has psychologically affected me so much now that in bed I don't even I'm not even ready and I'm just like here I have oil use it and get it over with that's how bad it is now and it's so bad but otherwise I get shocked because he's such an amazing guy otherwise like nobody would be able to guess how selfish he gets and it's not even like I've been married for like 10-15 years I was like literally counting before I was gonna ask him like how many years has it been it's gonna be four years so and it's been like this from like I would say like a month or two months into our marriage so it wasn't even like it just started happening all right well let me ask you this not that this is a reason or an excuse but just so I

understand what we're dealing with if he is making an effort how long does it take you to get there are we talking 20 minutes or are we talking an hour no we're talking like an hour so at times I would justify it like okay yeah he has a point so I don't even know I would talk to my friends they're like, no, it doesn't matter. But I know I do. Well, I mean, it does. It doesn't matter if he's the really giving and generous lover. But, you know, it is hard when and you're not unusual. I mean, the average woman, if she's being adequately stimulated and doesn't have other issues going on, which even if you didn't before, now you do because the way he's been behaving, you know, usually take 20 minutes or so from beginning, you know, from the start of stimulation

to orgasm and that requires a lot of direct you know stimulation orally manually and so what a sex therapist would be doing with the two of you is sort of really getting to the bottom of how each of you see the dynamics of your sexual relationship and what's standing in the way and i can tell you right now yeah i mean a guy who isn't necessarily by nature the most you know A lot of men, that's their favorite thing to do. All they care about is getting their partner off, and they would spend as long as it took to get there, as long as she got there, right? But a lot of men would be like, okay, if every time I have sex, it's going to take an hour to get her there, I may not have it in me to do that. That doesn't make it okay for him to just not even bother, right? It means that you work on solutions. So maybe you incorporate some added stimulation like a sex toy or you get really, really clear on what stimulates you most, because it really I mean, I don't like saying should or shouldn't because there is no should. but just for the sake of our quick communication here, it shouldn't really, if he knows what he's doing and you are comfortable, and this is just a scenario, if a woman is comfortable with her

body and able to get aroused and doesn't have a lot of inhibitions or trauma or negative stories in her head around herself and her body and her sexuality and she's being adequately stimulated it shouldn't take an hour for her to get there so the fact that it takes an hour tells me that either he's not doing what he could be doing or something else is going on with you and you don't have to answer this but what I would be curious about is if it's quicker or you can get there on your own I don't know it's so confusing now because I feel I've been put off so much because we've talked about it so much now that it's it's it's so bad psychologically I feel like he screwed me up so much because now even if he wants to be nice and he wants to do something extra

in my head constantly I'm like oh he's just doing it because I complained oh he's just so I'm already not enjoying so yeah well so you definitely need sex therapy because that's the kind of stuff that a sex therapist deals with and what and what we do is kind of we take your sex life and we all agree we're just putting it on hold like no more sex even you know for the foreseeable future and then you're slowly rebuilding your sex life together from the ground up with the therapists you know they're not they're giving you homework assignments they're meeting with you weekly they're going through what worked and what didn't work and they're helping you create a new playing field and creating new ways of communicating and figuring

out what works and what doesn't work and troubleshooting as you go and kind of holding your hand through the process. And you're not alone in that because when there's, you know, when sex is working in the relationship, I always say this, it's only one small part of the relationship, but when it's not becomes this huge thing and then it's hard to get past and then there's all these sins and discomfort. And so, you know, I think you're given how far things have gone and how awkward they have become, how uncomfortable it's become. I think it's really important for the two of you to get into some sex therapy. And what I would, my advice I would give you in that process is to try to be gentle with him because I think he's not really that sexually

experienced and he feels out of his element with you or felt out of his element with you and wants to be the husband and the father that you want him to be and feels like he's come up short and put his head in the sand about it and wasn't dealing with it directly with you. And then you got your own hangups naturally in reaction to that. And then that made things more uncomfortable. So don't make it all about him being a lame husband and he needs some help. And again, you know, as you get into therapy, frame it to him that this is because it is always a couple's issue, even if one of you maybe started it. Now it's a couple's issue. And so it's really about the two of you learning a new way to communicate sexually and a new beginning on the same page and rebuild your sex life from the ground up. Yeah, you got that right. You're absolutely dead on about it.

but yeah he's not that experienced and because he always asks me like what is it you want what and I'm like I don't know how to tell you like you should just know you know no don't say that to him he's gonna get so he's gonna feel so inadequate he's not supposed to you know I can tell you that I know so many men and worked with so many men through the years they can be with a hundred women and if they haven't been with a partner who explains to them what to do and how to do it, or they haven't really read any good books or gotten any instruction. And God help them if they got their instruction through porn, which a lot of men do. It's the worst sex education there is about what turns a woman on. So it's not at all uncommon for men to be clueless,

even when they've been with tons of partners. And then I hear that from him, he's just supposed to know. He's not supposed to know. This is also about my guess is you don't, and I won't put you on the spot to answer me. But my guess is you do not self-stimulate or haven't throughout your marriage. And I would encourage you to do that and to figure out for yourself what feels good, what turns you on, what gets you to orgasm, how to do that a little more quickly. And then maybe with the help of a sex therapist, you can start to teach him what turns you on. That's good to know all right i hope that helps check out uh there's an organization called asect the it's two a's s-e-c-t the american association of sex educators counselors and therapists they're a

national organization and you can look up you can find a provider there look up your state and see if you can find someone who is not just a sex you know a sex counselor or sex educator but a sex therapist who has couples therapy experience and you should be able to find someone there. Okay. But you don't offer it. I do, but I don't take on a ton of clients because I do so many other things, but I do see people and I also sometimes do retreats. So if you go to my website to the, you know, to drlauraburman.com to the contact page and, you know, send a message, then someone will get back to you and tell you if there's a weight or what's available or that sort of thing what was the website again it's a-a-s-e-c-t-a-sect with two a's a-sect.org that's

the american association of sex educators counselors and therapists hey ajah what's welcome would love to hear your question so it's a very small question can a person love two people at the same time sure I think it's possible to love more than one person I mean certainly someone people who practice open relationships or polyamory those who do it in a healthy and consensual way okay but are you in a polyamorous relationship no just a normal relationship but I still love one other guy too and then that confuses me you know we're not designed you can't just turn on when you still have feelings for someone else. It's not like you can just turn those off because you have feelings for someone new. I mean, hell, watch The Bachelor and you'll

see that, right? You know, it's very easy if you invest in those relationships to still feel love for them. I will say this, though, Aja, is that if you still feel kind of hung up on a past relationship, it may not be that you love them. I'm not saying it isn't, but it may not be that. It often, when we know, for instance, that someone isn't good for us or isn't really a good match for us or didn't treat us well enough or whatever, and now we're with someone new, or even if we're not with someone new, we still can't get over that past person. I would say more often than not, it's not really about that person. It's about what that person represents to you. And it usually is some much earlier trauma that they represent in your unconscious mind, like an abandonment or an

I'm not good enough or a rejection that feels very close to some of the things that happened in your earlier life and so all of that energy gets kind of projected onto that past partner that's often what's happening when you say you know you hear people say i can't it's been two years or three years i can't get over my ex it's often not about the ex or that you're really supposed to be with them or they really were the one for you it's that the way that they hurt you or the dysfunctions that were in the relationship that led to the end of the relationship is mirroring a much bigger wound that still wants to be healed and wants your attention and you're misreading that by thinking that you still have feelings for that person

so i don't know if that's what's going on with you and this other person but i would try it on where some see heroes and others see egos bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. I want to bring it over to Natalie. Natalie, thanks for your patience. What's your question for Dr. Berman? Hi, two things.

One, Dr. Berman, I know you had mentioned you have a big waiting list, but question about that. When you see patients, do they have to live in California or can you see people all over? No, I can see people all over, thankfully. and I usually work remotely and I do it either. I work in different ways with people. Sometimes I work, you know, just like once a week. Sometimes I do now that COVID is over, that will be happening more again. I do intensive retreats with couples or individuals. So they come from wherever they are and they spend three to five days here. And I work with them several hours a day and then send different kind of therapeutic activities. So it's sort of like a customized mini retreat that

I find is really powerful. It's almost like having three months of therapy and three days in terms of the progress we can make. And then sometimes I do larger retreats as well. So it really just depends. And I'm just kind of coming back to work over the past several months, myself after COVID and after some family tragedies. So I'm still kind of figuring out. In fact, I just posted something today on my Instagram on my stories because I was inspired to, I just had this download that I'm supposed to do a women's soul camp retreat in the summer of 2022. So I just put on Instagram, like if I brought 10 women together in a beautiful villa somewhere for a playful, supportive retreat of kind of really accessing and cultivating and

growing our divine feminine power, would you be interested? So I'm just kind of gearing up now, thinking about the kinds of things that feel really juicy and funny as a clinician, but I still see individuals and couples ongoing. I just don't carry a big caseload because I do so many other things too. My other question is, do you have any advice around recovering from dealing with a narcissist? And this is not even necessarily a romantic relationship, but just having them in your life. And then when they are no longer in your life, that healing journey is challenging. And I'm curious if you have any advice. If you were in a long-term relationship with, And that can be a parent relationship, sibling, close friend, colleague, partner who was significant. I mean, we all have narcissistic traits. Some of us are a little leanish that way. I mean, like not throwing the term around, but like toxic narcissist or severe narcissist, someone who was sort of abusive and controlling in a way that was really toxic.

then you know chances are extremely high that you wouldn't be in a relationship with that kind of person unless you were a codependent that's a trauma reaction those of us myself included as a recovering codependent were raised by addicts or narcissists usually or both and so it's a survival mechanism it's a way of that we kind of got through our childhoods but it's a it's very traumatic. It's a result of trauma. So what happens when we end that narcissistic relationship is that there's a lot of self-doubt. There's a lot of difficulty with, you know, what I would call discernment, knowing your own truth, being able to hold healthy boundaries with people, being able to say no, doubting yourself, you know, believing some of the things that person

told you about yourself, you know, and that's really about trauma recovery. You know, after a relationship with a toxic narcissist, you've been, you know, you have some PTSD. So I would say that what would be indicated for you, the kind of therapy would be a combination of exploring codependency. So my favorite that I always recommend is Melody Beattie's Codependent No more. It's a great classic book, a great way to get started. And also to explore something called somatic experiencing, which is a form of therapy that is wonderful for people who have had trauma in their lives. That's where I would start for you. Great. Thank you so much. All right. I'm Stacey on the pink couch. And I got married very, very young at the age of 19 and was married

for 25 years. And one of the things that was unaccounted for was that the vows we made when we were 19 were not exactly who we were or didn't fit us 20 years into the relationship. But we didn't have guidance. We were so young. And I did get divorced last year. And I wondered if in the work that you've done with couples and even if they're not married, but just like the idea of your relationship being a third entity, there's the individuals and then there's this relationship entity that needs tending to in order to create maybe a deeper intimacy or a longevity or just an updating, a current so that it stays current with who the people. And so I wondered if you had any processes for that? Or like, you know, every year, does a couple come together and ask

themselves certain questions that might be useful to do that tending? I always joke, but I'm really serious that I think, you know, in an ideal world, we're renegotiating our marriage, quote, unquote, contract. And I don't mean legal, but our vows, our intentions, you know, every three years. And in an ideal world, you know, and I really encourage the couples that I educate and work with to do this, and I do it in my own life, to have at least a weekly kind of business meeting of the relationship where you're instead of, you know, for two purposes. One, you're going over all the logistical business of your lives in that meeting, but also, you know, things that are coming up for you, things that are working or not working, and always really focusing on positive feedback as well as constructive requests, you know, and framing your quote unquote complaints as requests and, you know, in the positive. So a lot of that is around the way that those things are communicated in a way that can really be landed and held and received by one another. But it's also about like, I think in a larger sense, in a meta sense, when I see couples really struggling in the ways you described, it's because in some ways they don't, they're not consciously and consistently aware of being in choice. I think the reason that monogamy or marriage ultimately at its fundamental place goes wrong is because one or both of you don't feel in choice about being in the relationship.

I'm stuck with this person until the kids get bigger. I can't leave financially. I can't leave because of the kids. I can't leave because, you know, I wouldn't find anyone else. I can't leave because I'm too depressed. whatever the reason is, if you feel like you can't leave or you're not in active choice where you can walk away at any time, not that you would ever do so, but that you could, it's really hard to be in choice in the relationship and therefore very hard to get your needs met. I think I've

said this on here before in a different context, but just as an example, every morning my husband And I, you know, we sort of have this habit of, I come, I usually wake up about an hour after he does, because he gets up super early, like 530. And so when I get up, he's already sitting at the dining room table on his technology or watching the news or something, drinking his coffee. And I come in and he stands up and he embraces me in a hug. And we just hug for like 20 seconds. And during that time, I don't think I told him this for a really long time.

It just never came up. But during that time, I actively choose him. I say to myself and to him silently, I am choosing you today. I'm choosing to be with you today. I'm choosing to be married to you today. And it's been a beautiful exercise because it's like a conscious awareness of being in that choice. And there's a power, not a control, because there's a big difference between control, but there's a power in that that I think is really important for being able to voice your needs and have them met in a constructive way. Well, I thank you for your wisdom. And the other thing that you just mentioned is habits. And I've found that in a long-term relationship, especially if you have kids and you sort of said like there's the business and the administrative aspects of a relationship and we can get really caught in that. And I don't know if you have a term for this, but like what are what are the habits, the cohabitation habits that foster greater partnership that aren't just the boring and fun stuff? Because that's, I think, what what ends up creating more obligation rather than choice. I think it's about containing the boring stuff. So, you know, most of us are constantly, most couples don't talk more than 15 minutes a week about things other than the logistics of their lives.

And most of their conversations, if they have them, are about the logistics. And that's just sort of our default position is that we get so wrapped up, especially with kids and young kids, especially. We get so wrapped up in the minutiae site of the that is, I think, a really natural reaction. And so you have to operate against that. And one of the simplest things along the lines of the business meeting, I said, is to contain your logistical conversation. So you are going on a weekly date night, even if it's sitting, you know, even if it's sitting on the back porch while your kids are asleep for a couple of hours without your technology. But you're spending two to four hours ideally doing something fun away from your responsibilities a week. And there is no logistical discussion during that time, including ideally not even about the kids, which a lot of couples struggle with at first because they're so used to that. They're like, what the hell are we going to talk about if we're not talking about the kids or logistics of our lives? And that's where tips for that. Yeah, well, I'm a fan of I have a couples often use those table topics, conversation decks. I think those are really fun. You know, if you had a superpower, what would it be if you you know, just like a lot of fun or even crimes against humanity cards, just playing a silly game.

But you can take those cards out to dinner or even going, I've had couples who really struggle in the communication department, just start by going to listen to music or going to a comedy club, you know, not a movie because you're in the dark and you're really in your own separate worlds, but doing something where it doesn't require a lot of talking and coming up with conversation, but also preparing yourself with conversation topics in the beginning. And then it starts to flow. But at first it can be difficult.

And I think also, you know, for some couples and depending how busy your life is, like when our kids were younger, my husband and I would have had a standing 730 a.m. Tet, tet, tet, where we talked about that was the only time we talked about logistics unless there was an emergency. And I had his undivided attention and he had mine. And we went over all the business of, you know, the roof repair, the decision about a kid's education, you know, whatever it was in that time. And then every moment that we had to spend together or to hang out together, the rest of the time was spent actually doing that and not ticking through the to-do list of things we needed to discuss or logistics we needed to go over. And I think when you start to contain that piece and create more room for consciously connecting away from the family and also on your own, it becomes really powerful. Hi. Thanks.

It's Jemima. Hi, Dr. Berman. I wanted to ask, can two people with different beliefs, say one believes in God and the other person don't, stay together and have a good relationship? Do you just ignore the aspect that you don't like and just focus on the good, like what you said about how you choose your husband every day? I would say absolutely you can stay together with different beliefs, But what it depends on is how fundamental those beliefs are for you. Like if you are someone who believes deeply, has a very spiritual connection with God,

spirit, universe, whatever you want to call it, but I don't have a religious practice and I don't think people go to hell and I don't think that my religious beliefs keep me in God's grace any more than someone else's. You know what I mean? If I were like that, or if you were like that, then it would be very hard to have a relationship with someone who didn't share those beliefs because you're basically in your mind, you know, having a relationship with someone who's going to hell or someone who's sinning or someone who's going to teach your children to be sinners, you know, and then it's a really big relationship issue that can seriously get in the way.

Do you see what I'm saying? So I've done on what that belief in God entailed in action, because if it's just about believing in God, then it really doesn't matter. You can believe in God and have that deep connection and relationship and your partner cannot, you know, and you both move from different places when it starts to be an issue is how that translates into action into child rearing into rituals into traditions and conflict around those does that make sense yeah so what if the two people doesn't want to have any children doesn't make it easier no yeah that does make it easier because we're where couples get in the

hardest, they have the hardest time with around religion in particular, most often is around how they're going to raise their children. But if you want, get more specific with me. Would you say that you are more of the, there is a God and it's sort of a spiritual connection, but not a religious one with specific rituals, practices, and right or wrong beliefs? Or are you of that category where your partner is, or maybe you're the partner that isn't subscribing to those beliefs and practices where your partner is or isn't, you know what I mean? Is there, which, which category do you fit into? Are you more spiritual or more religious? You don't have to say. No, I mean, because I don't really go to church, but I do believe in God. So. And what are you worried

about being an atheist. What do you imagine you won't be able to be there for you? Could be as simple as not being able to have those intimate conversations about your love and connection to God, right? Like if that's important, I'll tell you, you know, just full disclosure, my husband probably would call himself, I don't think he's an atheist, but he would probably call himself one if asked. And I am very spiritual and he, and I know he, you know, he doesn't think I'm crazy, But I know he doesn't really believe what I believe. And in a way, sort of just figuratively, not literally pats me on the head and is like, go on with your bad self. You know, he doesn't argue with me or, you know, ever imply that I should believe something different than I believe. But he doesn't join me in those beliefs. Although I can see over the years that he sees the way things come together for me. And he sees when I announce that I'm manifesting something and connecting with spirit or predicting something, you know, that then it happens or whatever. I don't know that he'd admit it out loud, but I know he sees it. And I notice a little bit of an opening there, but I also don't have an agenda. It doesn't matter to me whether he believes or not. I don't need him to be on my spiritual journey with me as long as he supports it and doesn't stand in the way of it and doesn't pose it.

But someone else may feel very strongly that their partner in life really needs to be their partner in spiritual seeking as well. That's true for me. So I think it's really about your individual relationship with your spiritual practice, your spiritual beliefs, and whether you can move with that in isolation of your partner or not. Okay. Thank you so much, Dr. Perwin. All right. Good luck. We're going to go with Lavender. You're up next. We'd love to get your question for Dr. Berman. Go ahead. Okay. I am in favor of open relationships.

And I want to talk about, like, I mean, staying with someone who has a different belief system. Like, my brother and I are atheists. We are ex-Muslims. And my brother is having a hard time with his wife because she's very conservative. conservatively just i think here there is a difference as dr laura said between practicing the ritual and believing in god because in islam there are too too many rituals and my brother is like he's an atheist and he he doesn't want to see his wife praying around his children because he is worried that they will become very religious and very conservative

so I think it's difficult when it comes to the ritual it's hard but it's okay the belief system that's not an issue and I have a question for Laura

about monogamy because I'm afraid that I'm worried about engaging in a monogamous relationship I think a long-term relationship is okay but I don't know why the monogamy doesn't really work given the higher divorce rates that we hear from time to time?

So that's just my question, and thank you. So I think what you're saying is that you want a long-term relationship, but you don't really want a monogamous long-term relationship, and you don't really feel like monogamy is natural or would work. It doesn't work, which is why you think there's so many divorces. I would agree with you to an extent that when monogamy for life was created, we didn't live, 50 was the equivalent of five today. And so we didn't live well past our reproductive years. Today, thanks to modern medical technology and evolution, the average

lifespan today is actually 100 years. So monogamy for life is a damn long time. And it doesn't really, it's not natural. It's not in our evolutionary history. That said, it's certainly doable. We're actually, and most anthropologists agree, we're actually more evolved to be serially monogamous, you know, having those shorter term monogamous relationships. But that doesn't mean that open relationships can't work too. The requirement for an open or polyamorous relationship is that all the people in the relationship, for it to work, is that all the people in the relationship really do believe it's possible and fine and healthy to love more than one person at the same time. And that there is very strong communication and very explicit communication

about what's okay and not okay to do. There's usually a primary relationship, although certainly in polyamorous relationships, it can be all primary, but often primary relationship and other relationships as well. And every couple handles it differently. Some of them say, okay, don't ask, don't tell, as long as when I need you, or if there's a crisis, like we both understand that we're each other's main priorities. Others, couples will say, okay, we're in an open relationship and I have to meet and approve of and watch with every person you're ever with. You know, every couple is different, but what's required is very explicit understanding of what each of you expect and unbelievably under unbelievable honesty and integrity and very

little jealous bones in your body you know those tendencies to be super insecure and jealous you know none of you can really have a lot of that because that creates a lot of problems so it's not easy to find three or more people who can all hang that way you know successfully but it certainly happens. And I meet polyamorous couples all the time who are doing it and succeeding, but it's not easy. You have to have a certain kind of person and a certain level of emotional maturity and honesty and self-awareness, I think, in order to successfully do that. And also the monogamous relationship is always difficult because of the legal documents, Because you have to sign the contracts and you cannot walk away.

And the government is always interfering. Yeah. Well, that's if you're married, right? You can have a long-term monogamous relationship for the rest of your life and never sign a marriage contract, never get married, per se, legally. You can have a commitment ceremony even. The problem is, and I think this is changing and will continue to change with LGBTQ rights primarily as the insider of these changes. But that, you know, where it gets tricky not having the legal marriage is around insurance, health insurance, life insurance, power of attorney, being able to come to the hospital. There's all of these legalities that are slowly unwinding that favor legally married couples.

That's really the only, you know, if we're talking about logistics, that's really the only issue with not being legally married. But I agree with you. Many couples do state, you know, that's an argument that many have for not getting married is that they don't want to stay with someone because of a contract. They want to choose them every day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your question. We're going to go over to Shida next. Shida, welcome. What's your question for Dr. Burma? My question is my pattern that I'm noticing. I've gotten better, but I tend to attract like the unavailable man, whether he lives in another state or he has another person. and you know it just happened actually on my birthday last week I wasn't even looking I was

out I wasn't expecting anything and you know I meet someone that's like kind of just successful guy who's just like totally doting on me and it felt so nice and you know but then I kind of thought what the heck like how I this is I've said that this is not what I want and I want to be drawn to the available one and have this incredible relationship with someone in my life but I and so I was kind of surprised that I drew that this happened again and I was wondering what your thoughts are on that yeah I love that question it's so important because when we see patterns like this in our lives there's a reason and you're absolutely right that what we would say on a quantum level right from a quantum love perspective is that you are a frequency match

for unavailable men, meaning that you are attracted to and attract in unavailable men, despite all of your conscious efforts, unconsciously and energetically, that's what happens. And so then the question is why? Almost, and let's just take your specific example of the unavailable man. Almost always in this kind of situation, especially, it's a matter of what therapists call repetition compulsion. And what repetition compulsion is fundamentally is that I'm going to keep doing the same thing. Well, it's what Einstein would call insanity, doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. And I know you know intellectually that you don't want to do the same thing again and again, but energetically, that's what's happening.

And when that happens, especially around men who are unavailable or women who are unavailable, it's because you're in a repetition compulsion pattern around abandonment and one of two things are happening either those key relationships earlier in your life most likely your father but it could have been your mother as well or other key caretakers or sometimes even your very first really significant relationship abandoned you emotionally or literally were overly critical were rejecting on some level. You couldn't measure up. You couldn't be enough. You couldn't get enough of their love. And so we unconsciously then, that's where the repetition compulsion comes in, keep choosing people like that. And again, and the other reason we do that

is because we similarly, we are afraid of being too vulnerable because if we get vulnerable and open our hearts too wide, then our experience from our earlier childhoods are that our heart will get stomped. It's not safe to really love. Love isn't going to really be returned. Love doesn't last. I'm not really lovable. Those are sort of the unconscious scripts that are going on in our minds. So what do we do? We get into relationships that aren't really relationships, and then we can play in the relationship and have all the intimacy and fun and romance and cherishing, but it's not going to go anywhere. And we know that so we can relax into it or we'll sabotage the relationship, we'll sabotage our ability to really get vulnerable by choosing

people who aren't going to last, in this case, unavailable men. But it all comes, I mean, those are the most common reasons. And I don't know if any of that resonates with you, but it fundamentally comes down to a misguided defense against being hurt in love and a story, typically unconscious, but it can very quickly become conscious that you are not really as lovable as you want to be, that you can, that you can be discarded, that you're not good enough. Yeah. I, you know, I am aware of that. My, my parents, um, I was the baby and my parents, when I was two and a half, they went to Europe, um, a short trip, but they took my brother and sister and they left so it was gone I think I think it was four or five weeks and so I I'm

assuming this is where that started it's you know really vague I only remember when they came back that I I put asleep I knew they were back but I was mad and I remember that and I yeah that's the only part I don't remember anything else I guess I cried a lot but I mean it's just like I'm I've kind of worked on this and it you know it's just once your parents came back what was your relationship with your father like well i mean i was like two and a half years old so i don't remember i mean i yeah but i mean throughout your life what was your relationship with your dad like it wasn't like daddy's girl i think my older sister felt like that and i think i cried a lot so i think um there was some subtle rejection and distance yeah yeah yeah so you're

you're gonna choose men who are distant okay who are going to end up rejecting you or not fully be present with you or not fully engage with you not fully show up for you and that's the pattern yeah it's it's like when i do have that or i did have it in the past with my one significant relationship i i loved him but i wasn't in love with him i wasn't i didn't have chemistry with him or, you know, I don't, yeah. It's like, I'm trying to have this exciting feelings with someone that is like that. Well, I think it's a matter of confusion and a lot of women, and this is why women like the bad boy. Um, because on some level, if a guy is too good, it shows up for them and is really good to them. They think to themselves, what the hell's wrong with him? You know,

there must be something wrong with him because I don't deserve that. So they're always looking for the one they can't have. Once again, with the repetition compulsion, because the unconscious wish underneath repetition compulsion is that this time it'll be different. You know, that if I can convince if this guy who is already taken and not really available to me decides that I am lovable enough and desirable enough that he's going to make himself available for me, then I can finally believe I'm worthy of love. That's like the unconscious conversation going on in your mind. And the reason you're not attracted to the good guys, I mean, I'm not saying that one

relationship, maybe he was someone who you really didn't have chemistry with. But I think what's more likely is that you've accidentally conditioned through your own losses and rejections and small T traumas that you experienced in your life, you adopted this belief that you need to chase love and earn love. And it's this bar that's always there that you have to meet. And so that's what creates the quote unquote excitement or butterflies. But that's not really butterflies. That's not really attraction. That's like wanting something that I don't really feel I can have. That's not love or true, healthy, romantic attraction. That's a challenge for, you know, and not that there isn't a fun aspect of challenge in love, but the way you're talking

about it, and I see this with women who struggle with these things all the time, they want to be attracted to the nice guy, but the nice guy isn't enough of a chase for them. They don't have to earn that person's love so hard. They don't have to feel like it's so tentative. And then they don't know what to do with that because they don't deserve that. So what I would say to you is that working with some of those earlier wounds from your life, not when your parents left you when you were two, but I mean, through your level of self-love, self-worth as you adopted it, you know, in your earlier history in your family, that's the kind of stuff that I would really be looking at and building self-worth, working on building self-worth. And I was, as I was saying

to someone earlier on, you would be someone that would be a really good match for somatic experiencing as well, because I think you need to understand what healthy love feels like in your body versus, and healthy attraction versus the need him. Does he want me? Is he going to want me? Am I going to lose him energy that you think is attraction? Okay. What was the somatic experience you're talking about? Somatic. If you look up, if you even Google experiencing, I think, I think it's called traumahealing.org is the name of the national somatic experiencing organization, but you can usually find a practitioner near you. It's a form of therapy that isn't so much as feeling and noticing where you're, what you're feeling in your body, how to move with your

emotions, how to really understand what you're feeling. Because those of us who have had really emotionally traumatic or physically or sexually traumatic things happen to us tend to have a skewed feeling body. You know, we don't, it doesn't really translate correctly. We, like I was saying you. We think it's love when it's fear, you know, or that kind of thing. And we also have a hard time staying in our bodies to even be able to read that stuff. So that's where I think somatic experiencing would help you. Yeah, thank you so much. Good luck. It'll be okay. You're not alone. It is a good question. It's one a lot of women share. And it always goes back to the daddy, doesn't it? Daddy issues. Welcome, Ruby. We'd love to know your question.

OK, so my question is going to be something that you're going to have to listen carefully to. It's got a little bit of a story to it. Sorry, but I'll make it quick. So I am in a relationship with somebody long term. As I said before, we have two kids, a six and a half and a nine and a half year old. We have a pretty decent sex life, but my partner is 20 years older than me and I'm a fucking bang ass chef and baker. and in these 11 years that we've been together we have both put on weight the difference is i used to be a model and i was underweight when i met him and he was at his ideal weight and now he is overweight he's totally overweight and i have done my best to uh change our eating methods and everything what we're eating so that we're eating lighter i've talked to him about it several times over the years like hey you're gaining weight hey you're gaining weight and it's gotten to the point where we had to switch up sex positions because he's gotten too heavy to do certain things and

now I'm at the fucking point where I'm like look sir hey I got shit that I want to do that you can't do and I am really getting tired of the same sex position and it's really predictable like it's not like it's not enjoyable your girl gets like a sex life but I would like to do some other things and I don't want him to get into this habit because you know how it is with older people generally like they they do they have a habit of doing things a certain way that's the way they do it and stop trying to change me stop trying to change who i am this is who i am type bullshit and i don't have time for that because i am still in my 30s i am you know close to my 40s but i'm still i'm in great shape i take care of myself my 20s to my body the way it's supposed to um

so i'm just like how do i impress this on him that i really do have that to him everything yes yes we have because we have a polyamorous relationship we do have a lot of conversation and he goes he deflated over the years he's deflected and deflected and tried to you know he's one of those people who needs therapy you know turn it around and make it my fault so i probably told him i refuse to take accountability for that because you only eat one meal here in the house or you're out of the house all day working on your truck you eat truck driver food stop laying that shit on me you drink iced tea that has corn syrup as its main sugar ingredient like please don't come at me for that like i don't take account plus we're eating the

same me and the kids are eating the same food why aren't we bad like that just doesn't make sense so i totally you know it's accountability i think it's about accountability and he has to be accountable you can't force him beyond what you've already said about your fears about the future and his health and, and, and that when he doesn't invest in his health, it's like he's not investing in his longevity and that he's not investing in your attraction to him. And, but he also probably needs support other than you. So then as part of that conversation, it's about getting him to agree to meet with a nutritionist or a doctor or somebody who can support him in creating, because that is metabolism and isn't as strong or now that he's older or there are other medical

issues or insulin resistance or other things that make it harder for him than it is for you and the kids. But and that, of course, that's going to dissuade him from trying. But that's why I think having the support of a nutritionist or a doctor or both can be really helpful and also take you out of the role of the accountability person, because you don't want him to be accountable to you about his weight or for you to have to hold him accountable to his diet. You want that job to be a nutritional therapist or a physician that he's working with. And it's about getting him to commit to it. And even if he doesn't have the internal motivation, he's in with the, you know with the way things are and he's very happy to stay this way it is something that is

deeply starting to affect your sense of being valued and your attraction to him and I think that's very fair to say but it sounds to me like because you're the one that's he's being accountable to your turn you're you're fulfilling a role of a of a maternal figure that isn't going to do any good for your relationship I already said that too I'm not your mom I'm not going to sit here and like portion out your food to you and even when I did try to do that like all he would do is just eat like something else after dinner no it's gotta come I mean I'm not I'm certainly not a fitness expert or a nutritional therapist and I know there's probably many people on here I've seen many people who do this kind of training and and food therapy and and nutritional

therapy and motivation and and you know that's certainly not my expertise yeah no no i get it i'm trying to tie this into our sex life yeah because i'm like how do i get him to understand that this is now affecting our sex life to the point where i don't want to have sex yeah you're you're finding yourself bored with the limitations frustrated with the limitations that you interpret his lack of interest in investing in physical health as a lack of a you know, that he's not invested in your attraction to him. And if and this is what I always say to people, we can gain 20 pounds, 50 pounds, whatever, and expect our partners to still love us. But we can't expect them to still be sexually attracted to us. If our body significantly changed, we can't

handle certain positions where, you know, not as engaged, because we can't, you know, and granted, If it's an illness, you can't control it. But when it comes to weight, especially if he hasn't always been heavy like that, and it isn't a serious metabolic or medication issue or medical condition that's causing it, then he really does need to take some responsibility for that. Cool. Thanks for you. I appreciate it.

Thanks for your time. You're welcome. Good luck. Thank you so much for joining me on this episode of Language of Love. I love all these questions from you, and you remember that you can keep them coming. You just go to drlauraberman.com right there on the homepage. You can either leave a voicemail question or an email question. You can also go to speakpipe.com backslash languageoflove directly and leave a voicemail question as well.

But it's sometimes easier just to click on the link. I will meet you back here a brand new podcast is coming out next Wednesday so look for that make sure to subscribe if you like it and I'll see you next time on the language of love Thank you.