Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Don't Text Your Ex with Nick Viall

Episode Date: October 5, 2022

Is The Bachelor’s Nick Viall ready to pop the question to his girlfriend of two years, Natalie Joy? Why does he think he was so unlucky in love TWICE on The Bachelorette? And what is his hopeful versus grateful list? I’m covering all of that and more in my heartwarming, inspiring, and really honest Language of Love Conversation with former reality star, Nick Viall. He is dishing about it all from looking for love in front of the camera – to healing from being cheated on by his ex-fiance. We talk about how, for many years, Nick’s ego and insecurities led to the decisions he made in his relationships and how he learned to recognize when he was fighting for love versus fighting to continue to be in a toxic relationship. We discuss how he learned to put his own ego in check when it comes to dating. We also talk about Nick’s new book “Don’t Text Your Ex Happy Birthday,” where he shares the best advice he’s picked up in his dating life through the years. And Nick answers whether he thinks you can really be friends with your exes. In this conversation, we talk a lot about Nick’s new love, what he's learned through that relationship, how it's different from his past relationships, and what the future might hold. He shares how keeping a hopeful vs. grateful list helps remind him of all the wonderful things about his relationship. We also get the skinny on the Bachelor Nation and whether or not it’s realistic to expect an engagement on the show. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love. On this week's Language of Love, I had so much fun talking to Nick Vial. He, of course, was the star of The Bachelor in 2016, but I think he went on The Bachelor earlier than that. He is the host of his own successful podcast, The Vial Files, and now he's the author of his first book.

don't text your ex happy birthday and other advice on love sex and dating it's really a compilation of his best advice that he has learned the hard way through his journey not only as the bachelor but with lots of heartbreaks along the way I think you're going to find it such a heartwarming and inspiring conversation because he's really honest about how he's evolved over the years and how much his ego led in love, how much his insecurities led in love, how he confused this idea of fighting for love with fighting for a toxic relationship. We talk a lot about how you know when it's time to kind of say goodbye and how to kind of draw that line in the sand and stop trying to be friends with your ex. We also talk about his new love, or at least a couple

years old now and what he's learned through that relationship, how it's different from his past relationships and what the future might hold. We also get into the skinny, just a bachelor nation, right? And this whole concept of the show, does it really lead to love? Is it realistic to expect an engagement? And I even pick his brain on the kooky finale of this latest season of The bachelor or bachelorette, I should say. So I hope you enjoy this installment of the Language of Love Conversation with Nick Bile. Nick, thank you so much for being with us. So good to be with you, Dr. Berman. I'm really excited for you. This is your first book. Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited as well. And I really appreciated you writing a blurb for it. That meant a lot. It's exciting.

A little nerve wracking. I don't know how it was for you. It is nerve wracking. It's like giving birth sort of and then you put this baby out into the world and how is everyone gonna react to it and is it gonna be well received all of that for sure i certainly never imagined i would write a book let's talk about that because you kind of came into the public view was it 2016 when you were on the bachelor or bachelorette or 2014 was on i showed my face on ABC. And then the last time as The Bachelor was 2016. Yeah. And so from there, you come on as like a sweet guy who had a lot of romantic ideals. We'll talk about that in a minute, how those have evolved over time. You go from that to becoming sort of this expert through your podcast

and through this book on love and relationships. And listen, that's not a criticism, but I'm really curious to hear from you about your evolution because I'm all about heal, learn, teach. I mean, I think that's what we all. Yeah. I'm always reluctant to, certainly I don't call myself an expert. I always look to people like you, the people who have studied it, the people who have spent a lifetime educating themselves on these topics. I really just kind of see myself as maybe the friend or the older brother, if you will, that kind of vibe, you know, for someone like myself, as I kind of say to my audience, especially everything in my book is, you know, everything I wrote about are things that I learned the hard way. I'm certain a lot of people can relate to

learning things the hard way without maybe, and I think some of that comes from maybe stubbornness of not being willing to take the advice of your parents or friends or mentors, or maybe it's just simply just a lack of perspective. And just sometimes we need to truly experience things on our own to really have an appreciation for what we learned. But I was someone early in my life. I had a great childhood. I had great loving parents still married to this day. I always admired their relationship. I always wanted to emulate their relationship. And I had these kind of great expectations for myself. In fact, there's this movie called Great Expectations with Ethan Hawk. It came out when I was in high school and it was like one of my favorite movies. And this,

that kind of romanticize of that pursuit of love and pursuit of what you really want and what's special to you it always kind of resonated with me and I kind of took that you know lessons from my parents you know like when you're young they teach you you know love is not easy you gotta you gotta fight for it you gotta the good and the bad and I always you know it's like okay I took that to heart and and obviously love is special so as a young man all I really knew was that love is special and you needed to fight for it which I think there's a lot of truth to that. But there's also a lot of other aspects of, well, what, you know, maybe really understanding if it's the type of healthy love that might, you know, you might want or need for a lifetime. And

so I went through some difficult relationships in my twenties, mostly just because of, you know, young naiveness. My first girlfriend, we were together off and on for seven years, mostly her breaking up with me until the end. Fighting. Yeah. Fighting for love. The truth is she would meet another guy and wasn't sure if she could, you know, wasn't sure what to do. And I broke up with her once in the middle because I met someone else too. And it was like that kind of young love where you're both simultaneously trying to protect this relationship, but also try to live life. And so then I had a couple other relationships in my twenties and yeah, I took heartbreak pretty hard back then. And I had to kind of re-engineer my

thought process, so to speak, thought process in terms of how I perceive my decisions. I was cheated on by my second girlfriend after we got engaged. I always refer to that moment as the time I met my ego. Why is that? Well, because I think when you get cheated on, most people feel embarrassment. They feel shame and judgment from themselves and their peers. That's their ego. Their ego is telling them, well, no one should ever cheat on you. How could you let this happen? There must be something wrong with you. There must be something wrong with you. Let this happen.

Yeah. Let this happen. Yeah. I read this book called The Power of Intentions by Dr. Wayne Dwyer. And it really talked a lot about ego. And I spent a lot of time thinking about that and the role it played in my decisions. And that was kind of a catalyst for me to kind of try to reframe my thought process when it comes to love and dating and work on things like acceptance and owning my decisions

and trying to make decisions that were more healthier for my heart because I thought they would make me happy in the long run and avoid decisions that were more based off of getting kind of that instant gratification or the immediate validation of feeling special or making decisions based less on what I thought people would think.

I mean, I look at my second girlfriend, it's kind of embarrassing to say, but like we loved how we looked together, you know? It was very outside in, it sounds like. 100%. Yeah. And so I think a lot of people can be guilty of that. And you realize that you make a lot of decisions based off of trying to hold that image together. It's a dangerous thing. And so I just learned some really tough lessons. And obviously my time on The Bachelor was, I kind of describe as like a relapse really, because to go on The Bachelor, I learned all these kinds of

things from these relationships I had. And in my early thirties, I went on the show and I just kind of decided, well, I'm here. So I'm just going to go for it. You know, I'm going to kind of choose to embrace this world, but to do that, you kind of have to go back to how you thought of love in your early twenties, which is like, Hey, this is, it feels good. Let's just go for it. Let's just caution to the wind kind of thing. So let me just ask, cause just to clarify the distinction, cause I think it's a really important one that you're making, right. That in your younger years, or as you would describe it, when you're kind of making those decisions in love that are more from your ego self than your authentic heart self, soul self,

higher self, as I would call it. You are just thinking about the here and now, the instant gratification. You're kind of externally referenced, right? That this is someone who's really hot or this is someone who's really successful or, you know, you pick your thing there, but something that you really sort of on the more superficial level are attracted to, but you're not necessarily thinking about those deeper qualities. And I would also wonder, and I'm curious about what you think about this, is that there's sort of that often the love that really lasts while it's exciting and you're obviously need to be attracted to that person and have chemistry, there's less of a anxiety element to it and more of a feeling of coming home, right? And a lot of people confuse

those two. So you're saying that when you went on The Bachelor, you kind of regressed back to, okay, screw it. We're in the moment. This feels good. You're hot. You like me. I like you. Let's go for it. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I don't know if I consciously realized what was going on, but I think just my decision in the moment to say, I'm going to lean into this and just kind of try to be present, I have a tendency to overthink, which can be great at times and can be a negative, but it's certainly something that is kind of, I have that protects me and I chose to just kind of go for it and kind of throw away that kind of level of protection that I've built up over the years in terms of how I, you know, kind of processed my emotions and process my

decisions, especially it relates to love and dating and what was best for my heart long-term. What happened to you? I mean, I don't even remember. That was a two-time runner up. So it, yeah. You never got the. Well, as a bachelor, I ended up getting engaged. But as a contestant, I was considered unlucky in love. So what happened with that engagement? I should know this.

I'm sorry. I don't remember. I have watched them all. I just don't remember. It just ended. Yeah. I mean, you know, I wanted to ask you about that. Like, you know, we just finished the this newest season, which was have a lot of questions

about that. That was a mess. But one of the things that struck me was how both bachelorettes were like, oh, no, like I am getting engaged like this happened. And there were some really great guys that were like, dude, I'm so crazy about you, but I don't know when I want to get like engagement is real. I get that that's the show and the point. Yeah, I mean, that that definitely plays a role in how successful or more importantly, how unsuccessful some of these relationships are. You can talk all you want about taking a step back and starting slow, but you still have the pressure of an engagement, right? You have people asking you questions like, oh, have you planned a

date yet? And stuff like that. And every couple is like, well, we just want to get to know each other. But that outside pressure still happens, right? And I think every person who goes on the show who decides to throw caution to the wind and say yes to the engagement, the vast majority of people aren't delusional in the sense that they don't think that they know everything they need to know. They're making a leap of faith, right? The feelings are real. They're like, I definitely know I care about this person. I also recognize that I have a lot more to learn. And I recognize that I'm being influenced by an environment, but I still feel real feelings, but I'm going to take this leap of faith and get engaged. Right. But you can have that kind of self-awareness and still

feel a pressure to try to make it work. And then you have to, you know, you're kind of forced to fast track things because it's like, are we doing it right? Are we trying hard enough? And you have so many outside points of view. I mean, relationships are hard enough, but trying to make a relationship work in that environment is downright near impossible. So for any of the people who have made it work and who are still together, I give them a lot of credit. I'm sure it took a lot of hard work and obviously they were lucky enough to maybe choose someone that they truly were compatible with because I think that's something that's nearly impossible on that show. They don't pick the person you're most compatible with because there's so little you

know, and you have so little time. And so the only thing you really can trust is your physical connection, right? You can see that, that you can, you can trust, but like everything else. Yeah. You haven't seen how they handle stress. Disappointment. Yeah. Conflict. Everyone's presenting obviously their best self. They're on TV, you know, who, who wouldn't want to present their best self. And so it's a challenge, but speaking to what you said about this current season. Yeah. I mean, that's the perfect example of the stresses from the audience or the show. I mean the producers aren't like they're not pressuring them it's just implied it's built in the show's been around for 20 some years now you and it's that much more I think when it's

the bachelorette because I don't believe there's been a bachelorette that has left without being proposed to and so now you have that pressure of being the first bachelorette that someone's like I love you but much you know involved and it's all it's all ego yeah right it's like how and even the stuff that was going on between Rachel and Tino, that was all ego. Like, how am I looking? How are you making me look? How does it look with you? But this period afterwards, not only with all the pressure and going back to real life, but it seems to me that then watching the show and seeing everything that unfolded behind the scenes, at least behind your scenes, as one of the contestants seems to put like, that's when the rubber meets the road and the wheels start to come off as the

rubber meets the road. Yeah. It's seeing what you didn't know before. Truly. And we're also talking about people who go on reality TV. I include myself in that. And so there's obviously vanity and ego that certainly plays a role than it might otherwise would. And so you're talking about couples who want to make a relationship work, but also are caring about their brand and their image and their likeness and and you know and sorry but that doesn't i mean i i buy into it i watch it i love yeah and that's the thing i at the same time ill it's not to criticize anyone it's just like a human thing you know if you go on the show obviously you don't hate attention you know dr drew drew pinsky yeah yeah he did a study this was years ago i remember he gave did

this questionnaire and gave it to people who were in front of the camera whether they were newscasters or hosts of television shows or reality shows. And he found the highest degree of narcissistic qualities in those who go on reality television, which is matching what you're saying. I'm not saying people who go on reality TV are narcissists. We all have narcissistic qualities or what you would call those ego-driven qualities.

But it's highest in those who do reality, which is interesting to me. It makes a lot of sense, right? Because you're playing yourself, right? And then obviously things are edited. And so like for an actor, for example, they're playing a character and then they can kind of have that privacy. But like as a reality TV person, it's easy to get caught up in the machine of it all. And when you get criticized for things that either A, you feel misrepresented or shown out of context. I have a lot of empathy for people who struggle with that. But that being said, as I'm sure you know, obviously, you know, like to make any relationship work, I mean, two individuals really have to prioritize the relationship and you have to selflessly put the relationship before your own needs at times in a relationship. or at least before your own ego. Yeah. And that can be a very difficult challenge in a space where people are questioning your character or your motives or your choices. And no one wants to

be told that they're not a good person and things like that. And then that starts influencing their own personal decisions and subsequently influences the relationship. And so all relationships on The Bachelor are 100% set up for failure. And that's not necessarily, that's just reality TV. It is surprising when they actually make it, even though we're all rooting for them. So I want to ask about this because you mentioned this earlier about sort of your perceptions of love early on and these romantic ideals of fighting for love no matter what. And I think a lot of people subscribe to that. And it's absolutely true that love takes work. But in your experience, I'm just curious how you would articulate this. Where is the line? Right. So you want to stick through the tough times. You want to really keep trying. Right. But where is the line between that and staying in a toxic, abusive, unfulfilling, unmatched, you know, fill in your blank there. Yeah, I once had a therapist tell me that you can only do 100% of your half. I think, you know, everyone's different. But at first, if you focus on your decisions, as it relates to the relationship, and I think first, it's you want to evaluate your feelings. And you know, you talked about this, right, when you came on a podcast a while back in terms of like, you know, you talk about that spark or that in the anxiety, and what does that really mean? And many of us will think that means it's special or that's love and what that might be like your self-conscious kind of letting you know that's a red flag.

But when we say to ourselves, I have feelings, I think many of us don't reflect on what it is we're feeling. Because like you said, is it anxiety? Is it confusion? Is it just excitement? I mean, these are all- Wanting to prove that I'm really lovable. Exactly.

Exactly. Like really assessing how you feel is something I think many of us aren't doing, right? Because if you think about love, like what is, you know, you ask the average person, I'm guessing, tell me characteristics that you would use to describe love. Well, I feel safe. I feel secure. I have clarity. I feel comfort, stability. You know, these are attributes of, you know, love, right? And many times people are fighting in relationships where I'm, And you ask them, well, how does this relationship make you feel? Well, anxious, sad, confused, frustrated, angry. And so when you start thinking about that and reevaluating that, and if that's your

kind of more common state of mind and your feeling, it's time to maybe start considering some tough choices in the relationship, especially if you find yourself doing everything you can and then you don't see your partner trying to match that energy. Because you can even have two people truly want to save a relationship, go to couples therapy, want to make it work. And maybe you just realize, hey, we're just not compatible. We want different things. We respect each other, but we just are butting heads. That can even happen and not work. Let alone one person, let's go to couples therapy, let's talk. And the other person is just not engaged and they're prioritizing other things. And so I always talk about making a hopeful versus grateful list for people in relationships, because I would say like, hope, hope is a great thing, but just not in a relationship because hope in a relationship, it's a signal of what you're not receiving and what you want, right?

So if you, if I'm in a relationship, well, I hope they do this. I hope to have that. I hope they, well, every time you say the word hope, even in your head, that's you letting yourself know something you don't have in the relationship and something that you want, right? And most likely something that you need versus something that you're grateful for is a reflection of something that you currently have that you are truly grateful for. You know, that's different than saying, I like that they went to college at Harvard. Right.

You know, but I'm like, I like that they bring me coffee in bed every morning and make sure they tell me. Yeah, I'm grateful they make me feel safe. I'm grateful that I trust my partner. I'm grateful that when I'm sad, they really set things aside and listen to me and make me feel heard. I'm grateful that I feel seen. And, you know, those are attributes of a relationship that really will be there for you a long time. And so sitting down and kind of making that list of what you're hopeful for and what you're grateful for in a relationship can really, really kind of paint a clear picture. Calculating route to avoid seeing poverty.

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So you're saying if you're questioning your relationship, or even if you just want to take the temperature of it, making both lists. Yeah, yeah, write down what are all the things I hope in this relationship. I hope this, I hope that, I want this. That list is all the things you don't have. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Yeah. And I also think that a lot of people don't even know what they want. They just know they want to be wanted and they may have an idea of what qualities or characteristics they're looking for

in a partner, but they don't necessarily know how they want to feel in love and what they want to experience in love. Yeah. Well, and that kind of comes in with like just kind of that self-confidence of being single and recognizing that being single isn't the same as being alone because we have friends and family and things like that. And certainly a romantic relationship can offer things that those people can't, but those people also can offer great connections and you can still have a lot of fun and independence and you can prioritize yourself because a relationship does take work and allows you to prioritize the other person. So it's just having that mindset of appreciation of whatever moment you're in, seeing the benefits of it. And I know that's easier said

than done because society judges us for being single. It judges women even more than men, especially as we get older in age. People are like, why are you still single? You have to explain yourself. But the more we can get comfortable, obviously, with staying in that single season of life and appreciating it, prioritizing yourself and your individual goals so that when you do meet someone, you're at a place where you are really ready to be in a relationship so that you can give to the other person and prioritize them. And so, again, these are all things that really learned the hard way. But, you know, that's such a good point. And you have to be your own. Like I think I've even said to you, you have to be your own delicious

cake. Right. First of all, that makes you so much more attractive. Yeah. But also, if you're already whole, no one obviously ever completes you, despite what Jerry Maguire said, then that other person is like icing and add so much and is so amazing and such an amazing addition to your life and integration into your life, but they are not your life. And I think you're absolutely right that a lot of people make the mistake because they're kind of absorbing what our society tells us or what the media is telling us and feel less than when they're in their singledom rather than like really using that time to self-actualize. And it sounds like through pain and maybe through therapy, because have you been in therapy a lot? You know, you talk like you have and your

self-awareness, not that you couldn't have been self-aware on your own, but doing that work on yourself really helps. I'd spoken with a handful of therapists for like more like one-off situations throughout my life. I started like regular therapy shortly after I started writing this book. It was more like, you know, I advocate for therapy a lot. Maybe I should just do it. And it's been really helpful and I'm glad I do it. But I think kind of my insights kind of came from, I probably could have used therapy. I probably would have learned a lot faster, but just through my pain and trying to like work through it and reading some books and just self-reflection, you know, that's where I kind of gained a lot of my, my insight, just kind of being that kind of critical

thinker and in my head, which is a blessing and a curse, but the blessing was it allowed me to really process my emotions in a more productive way. It was just one of those things where I'm like, I was as tired of feeling a certain way. And I was like, I was tired of feeling helpless. And I was tired of feeling like I didn't have control over my own happiness. It's not true, but so many of us feel that way because we will give so much of our power away to other people and we'll give so much credit to other people for their ability to validate us. And the truth is- our peace and love outside ourselves. The truth is we have a ton of control over our happiness and our decisions. It does require upfront communication. It does require difficult

conversations, upfront expectations, and setting expectations, setting boundaries, enforcing them. It's simple in theory, hard in practice, I always say. And if you can do that, and that's essentially what the book's really all about. I mean, it's all centered around relationships and dating, but it was really just about owning and controlling your own choices so that you can avoid long-term disappointment. You can find happiness in the long-term and then along the way, not get too done in yourselves in the moments where things don't work out because things will always not work out as, you know, like unanswered prayer, so to speak, that kind of thing, you know, but we can really make life so much more painful and harder on yourselves because we want to

sometimes sit in that pain, sometimes feel sorry for ourselves. Our eagles will take over and kind that voice will tell us that we're not good enough and we have to get them back. And I spent a lot of time trying to get them back because I thought that would make me feel whole again. And it would calm my ego down. And obviously that's just not the case. And it's a very helpless feeling. And once I kind of took my power back and owned my choices and started thinking about the role my ego played in my decisions. And I always say, I try to make every decision, especially with my personal life, but all life, is this going to make me happy or is this going to make me feel validated. You start getting more honest with yourself about a choice and that immediate

validation that you would feel from it. And if I feel immediate validation, then it's like a red flag for me to just remake sure, is this the right decision for me? Because it could be both. It could be something that gives you validation and makes you happy, but very often it's not both. We all need to be validated to a certain extent, but we have to make sure that that validation is something that's still healthy for us in the long term and is good for our heart and just won't make us feel special in the moment because special in the moment might just be like getting that call from the fuck boy you know the person the situation ship at three in the morning and even the title of the book right don't text your ex

happy birthday i mean like that is sort of that reaching out yeah calculating route to avoid seeing poverty turn left to bypass the unhoused youth sleeping on the street then keep right to Skip by the lines of people waiting for food. Steer clear of the crowded shelter turning people away. Then take the next exit. Let's stop looking away and get in the way of rising poverty. Your donations help the United Way fight poverty in thousands of ways, like providing food, shelter, and crisis prevention.

Donate today at unitedwaygt.org. When a relationship is over, right, or when they, even if you've broken up with them or they've broken up with you, what is your advice? yeah well it's like accepting that it's over you know when it's over it's over and that can be hard and i talk a lot about on this book but in terms of like reasons why your ex is back that aren't as romantic as you think here's the thing you know like sometimes when we leave relationships and i've been that in that person like especially if you've been in a relationship where you you're

trying and it's just hard and you're just tired and you start fantasizing about like oh what would it like to be single you know i think it'd be fun your friends are on the dating apps you know I have all these dates. And then, and so finally you get the courage to end a relationship and it was hard and you're sad and there's tears. And, and then you go out and start dating and you realize dating world sucks. You know, like you don't meet someone as fast as you expected to. And then, so you start negotiating with yourself about like, well, you know, maybe it wasn't so bad and things like that. And so we have a tendency to then to reach out to the people we ended the relationship with. So like when we're not getting what we want in the moment,

we have a tendency of negotiating our boundaries that we've set for ourselves. And so true. And I think we just have to be wary of that. And so the birthday message, obviously, it's an always an alternative motive. Listen, let five years go by and you're completely broken up and indifferent and you have some weird friendship. Wish them a happy birthday. Like chances are you're not indifferent about them or the relationship.

I feel the same way. Like this whole idea of being friends with an ex until both of you have fully, both of you have fully moved on maybe have other relationships if you must be friends go ahead but i think so often people try to stay friends yeah hoping they have like an avenue in there exactly that's all exactly the person it's an alternative motive right if you're breaking up with someone and you have this oh i hope we can still be friends like no you don't you know there's an alternative motive there and that is and i get it listen like if you've been in any type of relationship, whether it's two or three months or three or four years, chances are so much of

your life is intertwined with theirs and the things that you do together. And not only when you break up with someone, you have that kind of emotional space that you feel like you need to fill. You have that literal time. It's just like, well, we used to do this every Sunday and now we don't. And now I don't know what to do with myself. And I have a lot of empathy and that can be a real challenge. But that kind of opens up the door for us to start negotiating with ourselves about what's really best for ourselves. And as I said, getting back or desiring to get back is almost never healthy. I mean, there's exceptions to every rule, as I say, but you have to be honest with yourself about, am I trying to be the exception to the rule? And if I am, what are

the risks involved? Because so many of us will pretend that we're not trying to be the exception to the rule that this is normal and it's okay and it's romantic and it's for the best. And if we just change this, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, we can make a lot of justifications. I just went through this with my 17 year olds who had a girlfriend for a year and they've been broken up probably three or four months. And I think it's best personally, mama's met of you. I didn't say it. I think it was good for both of them that they broke up. Not that any, either of them had any major flaws, but it just wasn't working. And they were not a good match in the end, at least at this point in time. And then, of course, he's having a great summer and he's

having fun. And then he basically says, I'm going to call her. She has my heart. They were together a year, which in teenage terms is like a lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. And I really love her and bonded with her. And I grieved silently when he, you know, when he broke up with her. So he wants to call And there's a part of me that was like, yeah, you know, I wanted him to call, but I really felt protective of her. And I knew that the reason was because he was horny and like wanted, you know, and I was like, listen, you need to understand that if you call her, I wasn't so worried about him. I was worried about her and that he was going to like pull her back in because of his immediate needs and then shaft her again, which would be a hundred times worse. Now she's like probably much more over him. He didn't end up doing it, but we had this like, like get really, really clear on your motives. And not only is that fair to you, but is that fair to her?

Yeah. I don't think we think about that enough either. Cause we get caught up in like what we need and want. 100%. I think the scariest part is, and if we don't have a mother like you, who's an expert in this stuff, the scariest part about that situation is we're very convincing to ourselves and it's very easy to lie to ourselves. And so, you know, no one wants to believe that they are settling and no one wants to believe what their decision is, is not the best for them. So the scary part of your ex reaching out to you is that they believe it's the right thing. They would rather believe that they made a mistake than to convince themselves that they are just bored or they are just horny or lonely, right? Because no one wants to believe they're settling.

So when you get a call from their ex and they're like, well, I had to break up with the, I had to make this mistake to learn how special you are. The scary part is, is they believe it. And because it's, they would rather their ego doesn't want them to think that they're settling or going back to something that they've already tried that didn't work. Their ego wants to think this is going to be some sort of romantic fairy tale that this is like destiny and it will, and we'll convince ourselves to justify avoiding loneliness. You've been in a relationship for a while now, because I remember it was more than a year ago that, that you were telling me, I don't know how long you've been together now with Natalie. And how is this relationship different than other

relationships that you've been in? Basically in every way, you know, just from a communication standpoint, obviously, I certainly try to practice what I preach. And so we're very communicative about things. Checking in is something I don't think a lot of people do enough. I know I didn't before. Checking in sometimes means peeling back a layer of something that might require an awkward or tough conversation. And most of the time, especially in the honeymoon phase of relationships, you'd rather just enjoy the honeymoon phase and be like, well, it's not that big of a deal. I'll list to address it later. And so we're really good at checking in and addressing things early on before they become a big deal. We don't compete, which is great. That's new in this

relationship. You've been with competitors before? Yeah. I mean, I'm a competitive person. So it's not just the people I dated. I certainly played a role in that. But yeah, it's easy for people to compete and trying to win fights rather than resolve conflict. She's the first person I've dated where I truly believe that... Certainly there are moments when we're frustrated, but I truly believe that we have a common goal and that is to protect the relationship and not win the fight. That's something I really appreciate about our relationship, but I mean, I could go on and on, but yeah, it's- Ask her to marry you eventually? Yeah. I mean, I definitely see myself spending the rest of my life with her. So yeah. So she

makes me feel very safe, which is a quality that I have come to really prioritize in relationships that I didn't in the past rather. Yeah. I don't take anything for granted, but she is certainly someone that i hope to spend the rest of my life with for sure how do you know because there is that pivotal point right where you just make the decision not a la the bachelor where you barely know the person you take that leap of faith but this is a different kind of leap of faith right that's the thing yeah i think it's all a leap of faith because you don't know truthfully right i always say the less you know the more things can change i certainly know a lot more a lot about my relationship with Natalie than I did say, you know, my relationships that started on The Bachelor

or even in the past. I think he's ready for an engagement. But yeah, relationships take work. And so. You're not even acknowledging. Yeah. I don't want to give anything away, you know. But I find comfort in knowing that you never really know for sure. And the reason why I find comfort in it is that it keeps me sharp. It keeps me constantly prioritizing the relationship Because I think it's a huge mistake for people believing in fate or destiny is a dangerous thing, especially when it comes to relationships, because subconsciously it tells you that you don't have to constantly work on the relationship.

You don't have to constantly prioritize the relationship and make sure that you're putting each other first. And that at any moment, if you get careless or reckless, that things can slip. Again, loving your partner should generally be an easy thing for you to want to do and resolving conflict should be like a common goal. but even the healthiest relationships and the people who are most compatible, there's so many things in this world that can distract you from prioritizing your partner. The more you realize that you could lose it if you don't protect it,

the more likely that could happen. So, you know, you never really know for certain. So I think you want to know, but I think for me, it's always never taking it for granted because that way it keeps you sharp. It makes sure that you're always willing to protect the thing that matters most to you. Do you still believe in fate and destiny? mean, that doesn't have to be fate and destiny and investing and valuing and not taking your relationship for granted. Don't have to be mutually exclusive. I don't really believe in

fate or destiny at all. That's just me. I believe that earlier. Of course. Of course. Yeah. I grew up very religious. And so obviously that played a role. But I believe that things will always work out if you can accept things. So I think things happen for a reason and things will always work out are two different things. I think they're two different things, right? Because things happen for a reason and no matter what happens, you'll be okay. Yeah. And I think if you are able to accept the disappointment, learn that things will work out, maybe not in the way that you hoped or wanted, but when you reflect back, you will realize that you're better off now than you were before. And that to me has more to do with taking

accountability for your choices and the role they play and accept that things didn't work out the way you wanted, but trying to learn from that and then do something different. I feel safer with that mindset because fate, fate sounds romantic and sexy and exciting. It's also sounds like a, like a gamble. I mean, it is, fate's a gamble to say, you're depending on that. You're depending on fate, giving you what you want, as opposed to recognizing that you have control over your choices and you might get things right and you might get things wrong, but you at least have control. Yeah, I think it's maybe because I've lived so long now, but I was the opposite. I didn't really believe that much in my earlier life and fate and destiny. But I think what started to

happen for me, at least, is that and I had just as many heartbreaks and parallel but similar journey to yours. And what I have found is that every mistake, every heartbreak with me taking accountability and doing the healing and all of that was what I call an AFGE, another fucking growth experience after another, right? If those things hadn't happened, then X, Y, and Z wouldn't have happened and I wouldn't be up in this and this wouldn't, you know, you can start to see the trajectory and the way the dominoes fell in your favor, even though it didn't feel that way at the time, not to convince you to believe in fate because it doesn't matter to me one way or Yeah. I think we're talking about the same thing. I think it's just kind of how we how we try to choose to look at it. I just want to be, for me, in control of I want to have some control over my choices.

You don't want it all up to fate. Yeah. And so for me, hoping fate would give me what I wanted usually didn't work out. I felt very helpless and I felt very out of control. Well, I think it's very sweet because in a way, this book is the medicine for that. Right. Like you're not out of control. You're not things aren't don't have to be left up to fate. Like you have a lot more power and can direct your romantic life in your favor a lot more than you think. Right. Yeah, you summed it up beautifully. Yeah, that's truly what the book is about. And I think it really can be applied to anyone regardless of where they're in the relationship because no one will lie to ourselves more than we will. We're constantly in our heads. We have conversations with ourselves more than anyone else. And it's really hard sometimes to face the truth. And so sometimes it's easier to tell ourselves something that's not true.

It's a bit of a coping mechanism sometimes, but that can get us in trouble. And so I think we just really have to practice on. And I think part of that is seeing disappointment and rejection differently, reframing. I find rejection to be more clarity than anything else. And so if reframe rejection to be less about our ego and us feeling less than and more about just getting a clearer answer so that we can choose the right path that we're on, then I think life gets a little better and we're able to bring happiness into our lives rather than hope it shows up. Well, I'm really grateful that you're in such a good place. I think it's beautiful that you brought this book out kind of summarizing all that you've learned through your bumpy ride. And I think you're absolutely right. What really allows because life is messed up and messy and you're going to have so many curveballs and so many hard times. if you're alive, you're going to have a shit ton of heartbreak in your life. But in a relationship,

if you want it to like go the distance and for the life, you have to be willing to leave your ego at the door. You have to be able to resolve conflict. You have to be able to be honest with yourself and with each other. It's sort of like that, that ratio that I always talk about that you go through periods where it's not this way, but over the overall arc of your relationship, there should be a two to five ratio between tough times and aligned times. But in the end, you're really each other's. Like, I think the key, key, key is never forgetting and always cultivating a sense of allyship.

Because when I see relationships really going south, it's when you forget that your partner is your greatest ally. And or when you forget that you are that to your partner. 100%. I couldn't agree more. right now. So I love, I love that you wrote the book. I love, as you know, your podcast and I encourage people to pick it up and I wish you the best of luck. I, you know, you've told me about Natalie, but I look forward to meeting her sometime soon. And I promise not to heckle, but heckle you in front of her about asking her to marry. Don't worry. Well, maybe by

the time you get a chance to meet her, that will already be done. So who knows? Well, good luck to with all of it. And thank you so much for spending some time with us. Likewise, Dr. Thank you for having me. Avoid seeing poverty. Turn left to bypass the unhoused youth sleeping on the street. Then keep right to skip by the lines of people waiting for food. Steer clear of the crowded shelter turning people away. Then take the next exit. Let's stop looking away and get in the way of rising poverty. Your donations help the United Way fight poverty in thousands of ways,

like providing food, shelter, and crisis prevention. Donate today at unitedwaygt.org. this family is on the brink of civil war mob land the hit original series is now streaming on paramount plus we are the harrigans don't know the net and google us from the underworld of guy ritchie do you want to step up the ladder i want karma dead starring tom hardy pierce brosnan and helen mirren do i have to do everything myself mob land new season is now streaming on paramount plus Thanks for watching!