Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Harnessing Joy Through Life’s Great Labors with Brandi Sellers Jackson

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

Heart aches and and heart breaks will happen for each of us—trust being broken, losing someone we love, or wounds from the past—can shape our lives in significant ways. But the good news is that we can grow through adversity into even better versions of ourselves.  In this Language of Love Conversation, I have the honor of hosting the incredible Brandi Sellers-Jackson. Brandi, a masterful storyteller, birth and postpartum doula, and the creative force behind "Not So Private Parts," joins me to discuss her profound new book, "On Thriving: Harnessing Joy Through Life's Great Labors." We dive deep into the heart of trauma, infidelity, grief, and the powerful journey of healing. We unpack: The four “labors”: relationship, mental health, grief and loss, and feeling bothered The path to and power of finding gratitude even in the darkest times The impact of childhood trauma on adult relationships and mental health The concept of re-parenting oneself for healing from childhood trauma The courage it takes to harness self-intimacy and truly know oneself The strength it takes to move forward after betrayal Remember to check out Brandi’s book, On Thriving: Harnessing Joy Through Life's Great Labors, and to connect with her on Linkedin.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love. Brandi Sellers Jackson is a storyteller, birth and postpartum doula, and creator of Not So Private Parts, which was initially created as a women's lifestyle blog. Now it's evolved into a resource removing the shame and stigma surrounding all women's issues and cultivating vulnerability. And that's exactly what Brandy is doing in her new beautiful book on thriving, harnessing joy through life's great labors. You're going to love this conversation.

We talk about trauma. We talk about infidelity. We talk about grief. We talk about the hard stuff. But more importantly, we talk about how to heal. And Brandy knows firsthand how complicated that journey can be. But she's done a gorgeous job of really delineating a path to healing for all of us. So I am so excited to share with you Brandy Sellers Jackson.

Brandy Sellers. thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I'm so glad this worked out. It's so great. I know, especially after you had a horrible stomach bug. Oh, my God. Back end. But it was so cute and beautiful because I was talking to Brandy right before we kind of pressed record as we were catching up. And I said to her, you know, God, that must have been so hard with three kids, having your husband's out of town, having that horrible stomach virus run through your house. And she listed like five things that she was grateful for, you know, not that it happened, but things she could access, you know, and it was just in that moment, you talk about

resilience in all sorts of ways in your new book, a lot more than that. But I just thought it was really special to have this random in vivo moment where you were demoing. Yeah. Well, it's like, it's important I think because it's so much that can feel heavy yeah and so it's important I mean we have to feel those heavy moments I mean have to and also it's like that moment of like but I'm here I'm here and everything's okay and it could have been worse like yeah it's gonna had it coming out of both ends and they're like ones in diapers ones you know yeah one's on the boob the other was just weird. Like they were all older. So like, I can think of so many things to be grateful for in that moment. You know, it could have happened at another time. It's the perfect timing.

So yeah, I got some great sleep too. Well, yeah, amen. And so many themes just in that recent illness you had that you talk about in the book around community, around resilience, around gratitude, around being in your body, around boundaries, all of that. But we're going to get into this. So Brandy's a, you know, you're a birth and postpartum doula. You're a creator of not so private parts, which you describe as a source of all things vulnerability. And in the book on thriving, you talk about thriving in and through grief in our relationships, grief with ourselves, with each other, navigating your mental health, being othered. What I thought was so beautiful, because I read a lot of books in general, and certainly I always do read the book

because I hate when people interview and don't actually read the book. It's all the time. But I read a lot of books and a lot of self-help books, as you can imagine. And most of them and almost all of them have all kinds of pearls in them. Even the not so great written ones are well enough written to get some pearls across. But I got to say, I did not know. And I know you claim storyteller as one of your title sort of or one of your identities. I've spoken with you. We've done a live before. I follow you. But I did not realize what a gorgeous storyteller you are. I mean, it was, it really was so, I mean, I know you're smart and I know you can get your point across, but I mean, all of us are smart sometimes. I mean, but lots of people are smart, but they don't necessarily tell a story in a way that is really vulnerable, authentic, lyrical, captures the feeling, like really captures the feeling of what and the energy of what you're trying to get across.

So I just want to start there by shouting that, that it's a really good read. Thank you so much. And that means a lot hearing you say that. One, you know, I love you. You're amazing and just an amazing human. And I've obviously have admired you forever. So the fact that you're saying that, I just feel like my heart just feels so happy hearing you say that. But yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, it was really beautiful. And you have these themes that flow through the book, obviously, as a doula, all these themes that you kind of use as a metaphor, labor and birth, and also the natural world, in particular, the way that plants grow, which I loved. now I gotta say I do have a bit of a black thumb but I repeatedly I repeatedly grow things I'm obsessed with growing things and I use that metaphor all the time with myself and in my work this idea and we're going to be talking about stuff but all the things in the plant world of the mites that can get on them and billions and the germination and the sewing you know there's so many metaphors in that and you use different, it was so cool how you would kind of talk,

weave in these stories, not only about your own personal life and a lot of it vulnerable, but also about some of the plants that you've grown and the metaphor found there. So we're going to get into that, but let's start with this doula theme, right? Because you talk about these four different kinds of labors that we go through. And these are really the themes that you cover in the book, right? And I can list them, but I'm going to let you list them because you know I'm better than I do. I have them in my notes, but I would just sit here the whole time like I'm doing a book report, but I want to hear what you say. Like, tell me more.

Yeah. I mean, I went through these, I kind of centered these labors into the four things that we as humans we all are going to go through it doesn't matter whether you're rich poor black white yellow green purple doesn't matter if you're you know gay straight man woman you're going to go through these and I wanted to find something that it connects us all to our core and so the first labor is relationship because we're all navigating our relationship with ourselves first so we start there and then our relationship with others and those around us the pesky humans all around us. We have to navigate that. And then, and also the pesky relationship with ourselves. And then there is the relationship with our mental health.

We all have to figure that out. I think these past few years have been intense, really intense for all of us. It's been intense. And so navigating, you know, how do we proceed forward in a way that's healthy and not just like a push through, but how can we proceed forward in a way that's healthy and sustainable. And then there is the labor of grief and loss. You know, we say death is the great uniter. None of us will escape that room. We are all going to experience grief. Yeah. We're going to all experience loss in that way. And how do we navigate that? How do we hold it? Because it's really hard. It's so hard. And you don't know until you're in the club. Yeah.

Unfortunately. And then lastly, you know, the labor of feeling othered. You know, many of us have been in rooms where we're the only blank, fill in the blank. And, you know, we see all these faces that don't look like us. And it feels like we are the only in this room. And a lot of us, when we're there, you know, we shrink or we become smaller or we resort to our survival, our survival tools, what I call survival tools. And so how do we thrive in spaces that feel like they weren't designed for us?

How do we thrive there? Because we're here. What are we going to do? How do we thrive in that space? So, you know, I want to think of four spaces where we all find ourselves in, no matter where you come from. Yeah, I mean, if you're a white, middle-class American Christian, you've had the experience of being othered.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to the same degree that other people do, but everybody. I think that's a really beautiful... Everyone's going to, everyone's going to feel it. You were really vulnerable and honest and open about some of the traumas you've lived through as a model. You weren't just sharing it as a memoir, although there is a memoir tone to your sharing, but you know, you're also using those stories are all serving a purpose of demonstrating

a point you're making or a path to healing. And one of the themes that I just so embrace is this idea of that the genesis of our wounds really does tend to lie. And not that we can't have trauma later in life because we can, of course, but lies in our childhood and our relationship with ourselves and with others are rooted in those first relationships with our key caretakers. And like me, you know, I've had a lot of my own trauma that I talk about. you talk about some of the trauma you experienced and the outgrowth that it took you until much

later in your adult life when there was a catalyst, we'll get to in a moment, to finally excavating that and discovering that. And it led to this whole path of doing that inner child work, reparenting yourself, creating self-intimacy. So I want to just unpack this a little bit, especially for my peeps here, because we talk so much here. I mean, this is a show about sex, love, and all relationships. We talk so much here about relationship trauma and sexual trauma, and you have experienced, and you share really heart-wrenchingly and beautifully the experience of being molested by, I believe it was your stepfather's brother. Stepfather's uncle. Uncle. Sorry. So your new uncle, you called him. So your stepfather's uncle. And not only the trauma of that, but also the compounded trauma, which I think is so important to talk about, of the way your family dealt with it or didn't deal with it is a better way to say it.

So I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about that and that and how that, you know, the outgrowth of that so that we can really kind of highlight this, because I know that, you know, they say that 30 percent of us have been sexually molested. Absolutely. That's a crock of poop. It's much more than that. It's just most of us don't talk about it, aren't asked about it or have repressed it or are too filled with shame, unnecessary shame to even admit it to ourselves, much less, or maybe haven't recovered. I didn't recover until I was in my late forties, some of the abuse. So talk about that a little bit. Yeah. So, you know, I was 12 years old, 12. Yeah, I was 12 years old. and my parents, they, you know, were at that time, my mom had just remarried my stepfather who, you know, I refer to as my dad, you know, in the book, I say my stepdad, because, you know,

I want to be very clear on who is who my stepdad and I, you know, good relationship, me and my biological dad, not so good. So I want it to be very like clear on dad, stepdad, you know, because he was abusive and he was abusive. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Biological dad. Yep, exactly. So I had to be very clear in the book with that. But when my stepdad, my mom had just remarried, had just remarried my stepdad, it felt like her life back. You know, she had been with this man, my biological father, since high school. She ran away with him when she was like 17, which is crazy. Like, you know, now that I have a 17-year-old, I'm like, what? Wait, what? Like across state lines, like from Alabama to Connecticut. And she was probably doing that to escape some stuff.

Yes, like what in the world were you, what was happening, you know? And my mom tells it, you know, her and my, you know, grandparents, they had just finished painting her room and like doing all these things. that my grandmother comes home and literally finds her closet empty. Wow. Like I can't even imagine that closet drawers empty. And she had hopped on a bus all the way to Bristol, Connecticut from Sylacauga, Alabama. Yeah. And, you know, she had been with this man forever. And so when she remarried my stepfather, I think she was looking for this new life, you know, and, you know, she felt safe. Finally, she saw that her children, me and my sister, we felt safe. And so they went,

you know, went out and they left us with this new uncle and he seemed nice. He seemed nice enough. And I, you know, looking back now, I was looking for safety. I wanted safety from adults because up until that point adults had shown me that they can be violent they can be it's a lie they're unpredictable yeah unpredictable sure yeah and long story short while they were out he ended up molesting me while I was asleep and you know I had the wherewithal afterward you know to it was weird because I remember sleeping you know I was on a pallet on the floor and I was next to my sister and there was this rotary phone, you know, and for the, for the young people that's called, it's not a cell phone. It's a phone that you have to dial in a circle. I remember those,

you know, you know, those things, the old days. So you had to rotary, rotary phone and it made noise. So you were sneaking after he attempted this and you escaped. I mean, that was a nightmare I used to have when I was a little girl that it was an emergency and I needed to call my parents and I had to keep redoing the dial if I kept messing it up and it makes a noise yes yes the dial so that must have been so scary it was so scary dialing trying to reach her parents oh my god speaking while so that he doesn't hear yes and he was in the other room and he promised me he's like promise me you won't tell and I was like no I won't tell and sure enough as soon as he left I immediately like heard him God on the phone called my parents and I was like come pick

me up and I whispered it. And I remember hoping that they would pick up because I didn't know what time, I mean, it was like midnight and I didn't know if it was, you know, they weren't going to answer the phone. But now that I'm a parent, of course they're going to answer the phone because their kids are sleeping somewhere else. Makes sense. Yeah. They immediately came, picked me up. I saw the flashing light outside the door, you know, as it pulled in, it couldn't have been more than like five to 10 minutes, but it seemed like forever. Yeah. And soon as I saw it, I ran out the door. I ran, just ran. And they were cool about that. They supported you. They were, you know, they took you away. They didn't question you. No, they did let this man stay

more or less in the family's life. I'm sure they didn't leave you with him again, but nothing else was said to him. Nothing else. I mean, my dad went in and said something, but I never heard about it again. And nothing was done. He lived his life. I ended up running into him. He came to our house one time. And I don't remember why. I don't know why. But I remember my mother shuffling me quickly to the door so I wouldn't see. And I remember in that moment seeing him in my home. It's my home. Yeah. And what, and so what was the message, right? That little Brandy got from that? I don't matter. Yeah. That's what it said to me. It's this man did something to me and he's in my home on my sofa. With my parents. With my, right. Talking. I don't even know what he's talking. He's

in my home. Yeah. And it told me, it relayed the message that you don't matter. Your safety doesn't matter. And you feeling safety doesn't matter. And I had to carry that for quite a long time, quite a long time after that. I think that's so important because it's not just sometimes the trauma and, you know, Gabor Mate talks about this too. Yes. The trauma itself, often the traumatic event itself is really less wounding than the aftermath of the trauma, how you integrated it, what you made out of it in your own mind, especially as a child, right? Where you don't see things fully, you know, and that is such a typical, you know, understandable reaction for a child. What else would you think, right? You're not going to think my parents are wounded

themselves and no themselves or set boundaries. And this has nothing to do with me. You know, no freaking matter. Yeah. It's very, it's at, it's very elementary level. Yeah. It's like, that's what comes back. You don't matter. And what's so powerful and what you really kind of demonstrate through the telling of the story and the whole evolution of your life. And there are lots of different ways. No, you demonstrate this is that for all of us, This is true that very often, not only do we not really make sense of what happened to us, but we sometimes can't really fully, well, I think almost always for every single one of us back to how we relate to ourselves in the world is based on those early relationships.

At some point, I don't care how great your parents are, pretty much every single one of us. And most of us didn't have, we had parents who were good enough to get the best they could and the wounds they had. the key to healing. And this was a path that you didn't do right away and not until many years later and due to another catalyst that we'll get to in a second when you entered therapy. But that was the beginning of what you describe as really beginning to build self-intimacy. And I love that concept of self-intimacy. And that began by identifying some of these survival tools

that you kicked into gear with your little child's mind that had never been challenged. yeah doing that inner child work and reparenting yourself so i wanted to ask what your definition of self-intimacy is and if you could unpack some of that this idea of i mean i know you get into great detail on how to do this and what it means in the book we don't you know but just in a general sense yeah yeah i would define it in the most simplest way by saying you know it's it's like a knowing and it's a curiosity and it's a continual curiosity. It's digging below the surface, asking why. I just responded that way because, you know, whatever. No, but why did you respond that way? And where did that come from? And what's underneath that? And can you lift up

that over there like it's constant like this inquisitiveness around the why and then it's continual work well i always say intimacy is into me see yes yes so that's what it is the is into yourself seeing being willing to lift those rocks and boulders of yeah and fear and anxiety and quick reactions that don't serve and starting to question them. And, you know, there's this beautiful image you described of one of your self-parenting, you know, because there's this idea that we talk about and you talk about so beautifully, and I fully believe in and support as a clinician is this idea that all of us, I mean, I've had to do this and continue to do this myself, have to reparent ourself, right? Almost all of us got to reparent ourselves.

All of us, whether you've had good or bad childhood or bad or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. There are parts of us that we have to reclaim and reparent where I have these conversations with my 27 year old son. And I think I couldn't have been a more devoted and committed. But I also, as I've told him since he was little, listen, I'm doing the best I can. I'm growing up with you.

I know I'm fucking up. I'll pay for your therapy one day. I got you. It's all coming from love. I'm trying my best. Right. Right. But I, but at least I, so now at age 27, as he's doing his own self-discovery self, the self-parenting, which I'm so proud of him for doing, you know, he comes to me with like,

you know, and I committed to holding that. Like there's a little one in me that, you know, wants to be like, well, it really was, you were really a part of the act, you know, but I don't Because I know that it's important for his healing that I honor. And it doesn't matter what the truth is. I mean, who's to say what the truth is? We're both working from memory, but it doesn't matter what the truth is. What matters is how you experienced it. But you're operating it.

Yeah. I love the example you give. There's this image you talk about around self-parenting, a self-parenting practice where you grab your own hand and envision it as the hand of your younger self. It gave me chills when I read it. Will you describe that? Yeah. I mean, it's something that I do because I believe like whenever I like touch myself, it's like one of those things and I write about this, it reminds us where we are, but also like it puts us back in our body because our memories and what we're feeling can have us floating everywhere like you know you have that trigger and then

you're right back to the time you were seven years old and you're over here and you're out of you know you don't know what to do right and so what I've learned that's really helped me to navigate those times is to hold my own hand and close my right literally hold my own hand and close my eyes and envision it being the hand of my younger self, you know, and when you do that, it, it does two things, you know, it, it makes you, it calms the, the little person inside of you. Stop and drive in the bus. Who's off. Oh, they are pedal to the metal. They are like going to Vegas with no driver's license. And, you know, it, it calms that person down to remind them like, Hey, you're safe. You're safe.

I know it feels like it's happening again, but it's not. Whatever it is. And then it also reminds you that you are in the driver's seat. Yeah. As the adult you are now. As the adult you are now. That the person, you need to move little Brandy. Let's put her in the passenger seat and strap her in.

She can come along for the ride. That's fine. Or put her in the back seat because that's way safer for children. Not in the front seat. She doesn't need to be navigating. Oh, we're in the backseat with some coloring books. She's good. But you're the adult here. You are the adult in the room and that you're safe. And so for me, just doing that. And sometimes I even hug myself and I just, you know, envision one hugging little Brandy. And then I envision

hugging adult Brandy. Okay. You're good. You're safe. Everyone's good. I know it sounds crazy. and like WWF out in your living room because you have children, but no one is in danger. Yeah. No one's in danger. Yeah. The saber-toothed tiger is not at the door. You know, one of the things I'll share with you,

one of the things I do, although I'm now going to hold my own hand, I had never done before, but I sometimes when I am aware that I'm not the one driving the bus and I've just had a reaction or I'm in the middle of a reaction that I know, you know,

is little me's reaction. yeah i go to the mirror i stare deeply into my own eyes which by the way most of us rarely do we just look in the mirror how effed we look or at our cellulite or whether we got lipstick teeth or whatever but we don't really look and so i stare deep into my eyes until i see her and at some point she's there you know i'm sort of like come on i want to talk to you and i just stare into my eyes until I see the little one's eyes looking back at me. And then I tell her, I was like, listen, you don't have to worry about this. This has nothing to do with, you know, blah, blah, blah. And like, I explain it like I would to a child. Yes, that's good. And then I

tell her how much I love her and how everything's going to be okay. And I got this. You can trust me. I know you couldn't trust me before because I didn't know about this and wasn't willing to face it, but you can trust me now that anyone hurt us, you know, and it really helps. It really helps. That's really good. My little tip. I'll hold my hand and you look in the mirror and I'm going to write that one down. How about that? We use that one next time. Yeah, it really it really helps. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship. Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the

next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams, and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage, the Quantum Sex free course. Check it out and let me know what you think. So you talk about how, you know, you really white knuckled it like most of us do for most of your life, having three kids, having a career. We can be extremely high. Most of us are extremely high functioning, but inside ourselves, we are emotionally white knuckling it. We're living

with anxiety or we're living with depression or we're living with reactivity or bursts of anger, whatever it is. And it wasn't until you went through a major crisis in your marriage where There was a big betrayal and you discovered your husband who you'd been with since, was it high school or college? You've been with college, college. Yeah. So you've been with him forever and had been. And what I also loved, what I want you to talk about too, is because this is true for

all of us, is that eventually through your own healing, you both realized like we all do. I mean, this is the truth for all of us. We choose partners usually from our wounded parts. Yes, we do. But once you discovered he was cheating, devastating beyond belief, relationship in crisis, you're in crisis, both of you get into therapy individually and as a couple. And that's where the excavation, the reparenting, the self-intimacy that you built began.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about any of that, but especially the part around because you put it so beautifully how you realized what you were looking for and what attracted to you each of you to the other was really coming from that wounded child's needs oh 100 100 it's funny because i remember our therapist using the term she said imago theory Yeah. And it's basically where what you didn't receive as a child, you will look for, you will continue to look for. And what I thought of too, you know, I think that's also connected to our survival. You know, we are always going to get our needs met some kind of way. Right. And that's exactly what happened with us. you know, I was looking for someone to keep me safe and to protect me and keep me safe and keep

me safe and keep me safe, you know? And he was looking for someone to see him and to manage him and to, you know, and it's like, it was like the perfect. Because you were a perfectionist. Yes. I don't know if you're a Virgo, but you were very Virgo. I'm a Leo. Okay. So you're very Virgo, like very organized, very perfectionistic on top of all the details. Yeah.

And he was attracted to that. Yeah. You were attracted to the, when you say keeping you safe, was it physically safe or emotionally safe or both? I think it was, I don't even think I was thinking emotionally. I was thinking more physically. So like I was thinking someone who wasn't hotheaded, someone who didn't have a temper,

all the things that my biological father was. Yeah. So that's what I was looking for. And he checked all the boxes. because if you ever meet my husband, John, like he's super chill and super like relaxed. That's who he is. He doesn't fly up the handle. So that was safe. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And now, you know, of course, you know, as we've both done work, a lot of that came from, you know, his, it was actually numbness for him, you know, just like peace was numbness. It was total numbness.

Like, I don't feel anything because of his own traumas. Yeah. You know, so what I thought was peace was actually just trauma. And then what he thought was, you know, perfection and managing was also trauma. And it's funny because he's the Virgo. And yeah, it's hilarious. And we meshed. Our wounds meshed.

Yeah. Yeah. They're very, very well. I always think about that musical Rent. Yes. Yes. And there's a song, one of my favorite lines. It says, I'm looking for someone whose baggage goes with mine. Oh, that's what we're talking about. And that's usually how it happens. Yeah. You know, and it's like, oh, my gosh, it's just love. And it's like,

is it love or is it trauma? We don't know. Like matching. Yeah, exactly. You know, and it's funny because I write in the book, too. You know, I after doing the work, I realized why I felt so safe with him. I realized why I felt at home with him because underneath what felt like peace, there was this thing underneath that felt very common and that I was familiar with. Yes.

Which was like, there was trauma there. There was unpredictability there. Yeah, you just consciously know it. I always say we smell it on them. We smell our, we're attracted to people not only to try to heal our wounds, but because they're going to trigger our worst wounds too. Right. Yes. The, one of my traumas was that my dad was a huge philanderer and always put me smack dab in the middle of it. I was my

parents' sex therapist and couples therapist from the time I was 10. Wow. So I ended up with my first ex-husband, you know, not my final and last husband of 21 years now, but with my first husband, And I chose him thinking, like, not even aware that I had this story in my little wounded heart that if I can get you, who I already smell is a philanderer, and he was, you know, but if you leave your philanderer, that I wasn't aware I was thinking this, but I can convince him to leave his philandering ways. And then I can make it right. I couldn't make my dad stop as much as I tried. Wow. But I can make him stop. Like, of course I didn't make him stop.

Of course not. That's not how that works. No, but we do tend to choose people from our wounds, both the wounds that we're trying to protect ourselves that we're aware of and the wounds we are not even facing yet. Yeah. That's one of the trickiest wickets

and the coolest parts about relationships is because for all of us, and I can't ever say this enough, when you're having a relationship with someone else, you're actually, what you're really doing is having a relationship with yourself through that other person. Like relationships are the best healing playground there is. And what I think is so beautiful about your story, and this is kind of a model, I think, for all of us, and you lay it out in a lot more detail in the book, is that as you both did your own healing work apart and together,

you were able to re-navigate and recalibrate and renegotiate your relationship and the way you related to one another and your dynamics on new healed terms and listen yeah i've been doing this for 30 years and i try you know that's my work to help couples do that right couples can do that like one of them can do it but the other can't or a lot of work yeah you both have to and So I thought that was such a beautiful part of the story. So I'm wondering if you can share a little bit about like what that journey was to change the terms once you guys have been doing a lot of your own individual work. What did that?

Yeah, so it looked like, you know, first, I think when it happened, well, I know when it happened, I didn't want to make any decisions. I didn't want to make any decisions from the place that I was in, which was hurt, angry, all of those things that you would imagine one would be in. I didn't want to make any rash decisions. And so I didn't. I just took it day by day. And I went on my therapy journey. He went on his therapy journey separate. And it wouldn't be until a while later that we did, we started couples therapy just because, and it was mostly just to even see how we could co-parent or how we could even exist together. If we could even like, it was more so that it wasn't to save the

marriage. I think for us, that wasn't even the focus was saving marriage. The, really the focus was saving ourselves because yeah, I was, uh, yeah, there was no way. And so as we went on these two journeys, you know, I started seeing things that where these wounds were coming from, from myself and what I was, the lens from which I was looking at John through, you know, it wasn't from adult Brandy. It was from child Brandy. And then he began to see how he was looking at me. It was this, you know, and it's so funny because he made me his mother. You know, we talk about this, you know, and no one wants to feel like that, by the way, no one wants to be. That ain't too sexy.

sexy no one wants to be anyone's parent in a relationship you know but that's what he was looking for is someone to parent him in that way and I never signed up for that nor was that ever my like you know yeah I was jammed it was not my jam I was like wait what wait what about in this role who signed up for this and he began to see that and how unfair that was and where that was coming from. And as we began to see each other for the first time in how many years we had been together since college, we were able to actually see each other as humans and as people and as two people that had their own journeys. And so, you know, what it looked like moving forward was really a day at a time, a lot of individual work, a lot of together work, and just a lot of patience

I think for him in regards to me, you know, he knew that it wasn't going to be this thing of like, okay, now we're cool. It's continual. There are triggers. Hey, we gonna sit here and let me. You also had parameters. He had to stop touring to move to a place like you started to really get clear through the therapy, I'm sure. And the healing, what you really wanted. Yeah. Yeah. And some of those things, you know, for me, I, I remember cause they were like, well, what is it that you want? You know, in our little, this was before we even got into couples therapy, we had a dear friend who's a mentor and also in, you know, has a practice and she would ask, she's a Brandy, what is it that you want? What do you need to feel safe?

And because she knew like, that's also the lens I was coming from was little girl. Brandy was needing to feel safe and I didn't feel safe in any of this. So what is it that you need to feel safe. And so I just started naming things. I was like, I need him to go off tour. I need him to switch cell phones. I need him to stay away from me. I need him to like, don't look at me like that. Why is he breathing? I need him. I need every conversation to start with. I'm sorry. I need like, it was like a list of things all around on the floor. Although now I'm thinking that I remember doing, yeah, doing a live. I don't know if we were doing a live or we were just zooming with each other but I remember him coming in and bringing this beautiful yes was that him eating

crow back then if it was during the pandemic yes it was because it this started at the very very very top of the pandemic yeah actually actually it was before the pandemic so it was before 20 it was really before like the 2020 pandemic. We joke in our household that the pandemic happened before the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. Because this was maybe like six to nine months after your baby was born. Oh, I think like he was still really little. Let me think then. I mean, this was it might if it were during the pandemic. Yeah. It might have been right before or during right before we're during that time then yes yes that was him bringing me food because he was like this is I love you here like this is safety and I remember thinking because I was like oh my god that's a

gorgeous breakfast and you were like yeah I was like that was safety on a plate that's what that was on a plate that's so cute that toast was safety on a plate that's what that was you know it's we had all these things where I just and I had to get used to saying what I needed to feel safe yeah and knowing that you know at the end of the day I'm the only one that can make me feel safe at the end of the day that was the other thing I wanted to be very clear on is like at the end of the day like I am my safety I am my first home you know but also I had to be very I didn't realize how much I struggled with saying what I needed yeah well when were you ever allowed to growing that part. I had no idea until it actually was asked. Yeah. What is it that you

need? What do you need? I can't tell you how often I ask clients that when they first start with me and, or even just in conversation, because I'm in small talk and inevitably even parties, I'm diving into people's souls with them. Yeah. Revealing my probably more than same, same. But if I say, well, so what do you want? Or even if we're in the middle of a session, and one of them's like having a react. So what do you want right now? We have no idea what we want because we were never allowed to want there, or there was no point in wanting or wanting a burden or wanting led to abuse or what, you know? Yeah. So you learn not to ever have a need in order to fit yourself into the press. Never to ask, never to answer that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Never even asked

yourself. So I think that's so beautiful. So how are things now? Obviously all relationships are works in progress. We're always evolving. Yeah. But how are things between the two of you now? Yeah, we're good. You know, it's, it is, I think it's one of those things that's going to be a process, but we are so good. Like to the point where it's kind of like, we're obviously like this, right. But we've done so much work where we're able to govern our own, like, you know, for me when I feel triggered or when I feel like you know because for right now he's back on the road you know he took some time away and he's back on the road and there was a time I remember the first time he went back feeling very like all right triggered and like and now it's like he's

fine everything's fine everything is okay and knowing too where my own stuff is coming from yeah like is everything safe yeah and I also think what I try to say to couples because I work a lot with couples around, you know, what I call repairing after an affair is that there comes a point when you've done the healing and you've done calibration and it's been a long time. And now you're, you know, in this metaphorically or literally in your case, he's going back on the road. Of course, there's going to be fear because he has shown, even though he's a very different person now, absolutely. Yeah. What he's capable of. Right. We know people will duplicity. Right. We know that. But at some point, you got to take that leap of faith. And I think the key,

and I'm curious what you think about this. I think one of the keys, in addition to really feeling confident in their self-awareness and their intention, is knowing that if it did happen again, you would be okay. Well, that's really what it comes down to, really. I mean, think about it. It's like you've survived your worst days and that was pretty bad. I think about January of 2020 and I would have said, oh my gosh, that was the worst, right? Really dark, really dark moments. However, I'm here and I've had some of the most amazing things happen in my life after

that and I'm still here and I'm thriving. so if if if that was okay then i'd be okay yeah you know me micromanaging what this person is doing what my kids are doing what this friend over here what john like what my dog is doing yeah who has time for that who has time for that you know all i have to know is that i'm going to be okay either way everyone is going to be okay and i'm going to be okay yeah and that's the main thing you know i call these things that happen afges another freaking growth experience because they break you they break you open all of that but when the worst thing happens you know it could be being cheated on could be someone you love dying you know it could be like

yeah been through something so horrific that yeah it makes you feel less scared in a weird way yeah no you can survive it so like you know I don't want it to happen but I'm a lot less guarded and garnering for the worst like I'm okay whatever you know throw it at me I'm gonna be fine yeah yeah I think of you know I think of some of the hardest moments my mom passed I didn't think I would make it I'm okay yeah let's talk about that for a minute because it's a plant metaphor here that I was laughing about and loving. Because I'm like a 12-year-old boy inside. And if you talk about poop, you have me.

My husband says, if you ever want to make me laugh, just talk about poop. It's something- Poop is funny. It is funny. I get it. You talk about this process of a seed growing, right? Yeah.

That it has to go through, I forget what the, endo- Endozookery, I think that's the word, how to pronounce it. endosuchary. Yeah. Basically the hard shell has to kind of be scarified and a little bit so that the germination can begin. And part of nature's way of doing that is by animals eating the seed and it goes through the digestive tract. Yeah. It gets a little beaten up and then it comes out in a pile of fertilizing poop. Yep.

Just poop. Yeah. And then it remains in the shit. And you were discussing this in the context of what you said, the grief process, right? Yeah. The metamorphosis that grief is. Yeah.

It is that scarification, poopifying, being in the shit. So something new can burst forth. So talk about that for a minute, beyond the poop analysis I just gave or the poop summary? Well, first off, you described it perfectly. And I enjoyed writing that part because it also made me laugh

when I, the more I researched about it. And I talked to a dear friend, Dr. Tanisha Williams, who was a botanist, you know, because I wanted to research, you know. And I was telling her how I was learning about this like scarification process of the seed and all that. And she was saying how seeds are like this, like it's like a baby with a backpack.

Yeah, it has everything it needs to, you know, to survive. But it goes through this process of like getting gobbled up, which I'm like, yeah, that's grief. And then it goes through the digestive system, like you said, and then it gets shitted out and it's just right there and it just stays there. And what I what I learned from that, you know, when dealing with the grief of my mother or the grief of what I thought was my marriage or any of those things, grief of miscarriage, is that a lot of us want to get out of the shit because who wants to sit in shit? Nobody wants to. I mean, unless you're into that kind of thing, but that's a minority of people. Both of us do not want to sit in the shit. No one wants to sit in that. It doesn't smell good.

It probably doesn't feel good. Ew, you know, no one wants it. But imagine, you know, if the seed just got up and was like, I'm done with this and just walked off. It would probably get gobbled up and never get shat out again. And then that was the end of it. And it wouldn't be fertilized or nurtured or get the nutrients that it really needs to turn into something new.

Exactly. So grief is a portal, right? It is a portal. It is. But it literally is, you know, and so like sitting in that is as uncomfortable as it is. It is a part of our growth and it is a part of our nutrients. So it sucks, but it's where we find our thriving. It's where we find our beginning, I believe. And we just have to be patient in the shit. We just got to sit there and get a book, maybe, you know, read while you're at support and surrender in my life. You know, I have my whole career has been about sex and love and a lot about sex, which I love talking about. But now there's been this whole new direction that my heart is being pulled around healing from loss and grief, all of, you know, that I've been going through over the past three years. And I said to a girlfriend at one point, God, like if I were to give a Ted talk, how the hell do I bring together, you know, sex and death? Like, obviously they're both part of

the cycle of life, but like, shit, like how do I pull these things? How do I do this? And all of a sudden the other day I woke up in the middle of the night and here's my seed. Okay. We'll germinate it and let it grow. But my secret is there are tons of parallels between grief and orgasm. And this is what you just reminded me of. Like you have to be willing to be in your body and feel it all. You have to be willing to be vulnerable. You have to be willing to give up control and surrender. You have to be willing to ask for what you need and receive it. You know, you have to be willing to receive. And often it takes a tremendous loss to be willing to do that. You know, those are just the first four that occurred to me. But if I keep thinking, that's

good. Right. Like I think orgasm, like what orgasm and death have in common. I don't know, but that's really good. That's good. But it reminds me of what you're talking about. Right. And you talk a lot about this idea of living softly, which is so beautiful and rest and be gentle with yourself and learning to really claim the love that you deserve for yourself and building community. And we don't have a ton of time left, but I want to definitely get to that. There's so many things I still want to get to, but yeah. Yeah. You can talk about each of these for an entire podcast, but you guys all read the book, but there are, when you talk about community, which I am so big on and we need more than ever in this crazy disconnected world that we need

five. I love these five kinds of people around us. Yeah. We're birthing our dreams, like whatever we're birthing. It doesn't have to be a human being. We're always birthing something. Right. So if you want to even your own transformation or your own healing or a new project or a new life or whatever it is, we're always birthing something, whether we realize it or not. So what are the five kinds of people? So I said one, I'm going to make sure I remember all of these. So I made a prompt to you. One is the teacher.

Yes. Okay. So the teacher, the teacher is the person that knows more than you. They're the person that has been there before. They know how this could end up. You know, they are the person that if you have questions, you go to them. You know, you don't have to figure out this all on your own. So you're the person.

source there, right? And there's the accountant, which is not the crunching numbers, but the kind that will hold you accountable. Yep. They are the ones that hold you accountable. They're going to hold you to it. You want someone who you trust to do this because they are the ones that are going to like give you like, okay, I'm not, you said you're going to do the thing on Tuesday. Let's see it. You're going to do the thing on Tuesday. Yeah. And then the hole puncher. Yes. My husband's hole puncher, but I do appreciate it because his whole, yeah, his, his holes often were really important that he punched, even though I wish I didn't have to deal with. Yeah. So tell about the hole puncher. The hole puncher is the person that punches the holes. They are the person that

says, well, okay, I see that, but what if, what about this? And are you sure that's going to work out? Why don't you try this? And that also someone you need to, you know, have someone you trust because that person is the person that offers those critiques. Yeah, and they have to be someone who you trust and who you know has your best interests at heart and is on. Exactly.

They're not just punching holes just for funsies. Yeah, those aren't the hole punchers guys, the jerks that are always naysaying everything you do. No, this is someone who wants you to succeed. Yes, yes. And then there's the nurturer. Yes, they are the person that I like to call them like they're your doula, your personal doula.

So they are the people that, you know, they'll, you know, they'll comfort you. They'll ask you what you need. How's it going? They may not even ask you how's it going, but what do you need? They are the person that's going to really nurture you and hold you during that time. And then the healthy distractor. Those are really important too. Yes, they are.

They are the best. So, well, they're not the best, but they are to me, I feel like the best. They're the people that, you know, they're not going to mention it. They have like this sworn oath. they're not going to mention what you're doing. Hey, you want to go for a walk? Well, look at this cute little meme of a puppy. They are the people that give you the healthy distractions that you need to take a break from what you're doing. And these aren't the people who are trying to distract you from your dreams, but you are, who are pulling you away from 10 hours on the

computer to shift perspectives or to shake yourself off a little bit or offer some levity or some fun. I love it. Yeah. And I think too, these people need to be very, what's the word I want to use, in tune to you because they need to know when you're almost at capacity and they're the people like, hey, so let's go for lunch. They need to be those people that just are very in tune in that way, the healthy distractors. And you talk in the book about building community. And I do really believe, I mean, I've talked about this a lot. I've always, I'm actually, people don't realize this, but I actually have, I come from a history of extreme social anxiety. I was really bullied and othered when I was a kid. It took me probably into my thirties to start having

confidence where I can walk into a party and like, and now I don't even really think about it, but I still am kind of an extroverted introvert. And I've always had friends that in my, before I recovered from, you know, I'm in recovery from codependency for probably 15 years now. But before that, all my friends were primarily a collection of broken little birds or drama, trauma, because without realizing what I was doing accidentally and unconsciously was what I had done my whole life. If you need me, you won't leave me, right? So if I'm saving you, therapizing you, helping you get your shit together, being the one, the shoulder, you cry on the coach, the nurturer basically is what I was. Then you wouldn't hurt me or abandon me or betray me, which of course

was a crock of shit because that, of course, that's not how it works. Yeah. I would say over the past five to 10 years, as I've really done my own extreme healing and transformation, you know, I always say that we attract people, not just love, but people into our lives who are a frequency match for us, who are an energetic and emotional match for us. And so I mentioned this thinking about these kind of five categories that someone listening is like, well, how the hell do I make that happen? I got one neighbor down the street who sucks, you know, I don't have any. They suck. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You tell me what you think, but I feel like part of it is not certainly putting yourself out there and seeking organizations and groups and things that

interest you and take a chance and introducing yourself and, and asking people to connect with you or go to lunch or coffee, but so much of it is inside you, right? That part, it really is. I mean, it's funny because I do believe while I, you know, it's great to have community. I'd say the majority of it is right here. You know, you're your biggest advocate. You're your biggest cheerleader, you know, like I said, safe space, you know, so, and I do believe, you know, it is about to, you know, being open where, you know, the people who are for you will find you, you know, I do believe that, you know, and I, you know, I believe in quality over quantity. So if you, you may not have the accountant, but you got the nurturer, you know, so even think about like,

think about that list. Where are the holes in my life? Like I have plenty of but no accountants or plenty of hole punchers, but not plenty of hole punchers, but no nurtures. Right. And I really kind of I feel like I've noticed just as without even doing anything in particular, two things started happening. And I found myself with this amazing tribe of the most glorious as human beings can learn from and inspired by. I don't need to rescue and don't need to rescue me. That didn't happen until I got to that point. Well, isn't that funny how that is? I think when we're open to it, that's when it finds us. You know, I write that, you know, truth finds us when we're open to her. I think same thing with relationships. When we're open to them and we

have them within ourselves, they kind of pop up. I mean, what I always say about love relationships is that new. And it's the same thing with friendships. Nobody ever completes you. Nobody. You got to be your own delicious, glorious, fully fabulous, scrumptious cake. And the other person are icing. Oh, my God. Yes, that's exactly. They're the icing. You're the cake. Yeah. And the ice, the cake is still delicious with or without the icing. Cake is amazing. Yeah, I prefer it sometimes without icing. Exactly. And you are one of these people I mean, we haven't because not long after we had our last conversation, which was right in the beginning of the pandemic, I think, yes, then Sammy died and I went off line from the world. But I never got a chance to tell you this and it's relevant because we were just talking about making friends that I have this weird thing that has evolved over the past couple of years, three, four years, maybe this was maybe a year before Sammy died.

it was starting and it happened with you. Sometimes people light up is the only way you describe it. And so if I'm, and this has happened, like I could be in a supermarket and someone at the checkout line will light up or in a store and someone looking at a clothing rack or maybe working in the store will light up or someone who I just met, like I met you that day and was having this conversation lights up. And if they don't light up, that's fine. I still love them, enjoy them, wish, you know, we'll collaborate with them, all those kinds of things. But when they light up, I have learned that that is like spirit's way of telling me they're supposed to be in your life and you're supposed to be friends. And normally since I stopped,

since Sammy died, I have started through my own healing and lack of fear and lack of care, how cuckoo I look. I now say it out loud when somebody lights up, I'm like, by the way, we're going to be friends. We're supposed to be friends. You just lit up. So I'm telling you late that you lit up and we're supposed to be friends. Oh, we're already friends. I know, but we are already friends, but you know what I mean? We're not really in each other's lives, but we're supposed to be. So yes, we are. I believe that. I really believe that. So that makes me feel so happy. Yeah, it really does. Thank you for telling me that. Of course. Brave, open, resting, updated relationships and healing. And that's what this book is about, guys. It's called On

Thriving, Harnessing Joy Through Life's Great Labors. A really beautiful read that takes you on a journey of healing. And she shares so much practical that as a therapist and someone who works with people in this population, you're right on the nose, girl. I love it. I love the whole thing. And not everybody is right on the nose. You know, they're just like, take it away. Whatever it is, like, I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. People like me. I'm all better. Yeah, no, you really get into it in a beautiful, attainable way. So I'm going to put the book and all of your details to follow you on social and go to your website in the show notes of this show, but I just want to thank you so much for your heart, being so vulnerable,

willing to share your journey and service to others, helping them heal and being a literal and an emotional and spiritual doula for all of us. Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Know that I feel the same about you. I really, really do. And I'm so honored to like chat with you today. Thank you. crush all i wanna do i wanna do is take you home with me i wanna make a move i wanna make a move but i'm too shy i can't fall asleep without your arms around me i guess i'm falling in love Baby, you're my rockstar, smashing all my guitars One day I will charge you for breaking my heart

You're just like my sport car, driving fast, you go far When I'm sitting by you, we get high This song is about you and my love