Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Honey, Baby, Mine, Laura Dern and Diane Ladd

Episode Date: June 21, 2023

For most of us, we avoid the hard conversations. And if we have them, we wait until the end is near to sit down, ask questions and get the answers we need before saying our final goodbyes. But the truth is we don’t have to wait until we are about to loose someone to clear the air. Those hard conversations can actually be the beginnings of beautiful new chapters of life.  In this Language of Love session, I speak to renowned actress Laura Dern. We’ll discuss the new book she recently completed with her mother, the legendary Diane Ladd entitled, Honey, Baby, Mine: A Mother and Daughter Talk Life, Death, Love (and Banana Pudding). Listen in to our heartfelt, insightful, & eye opening conversation about hope, honesty and the important conversations we shouldn’t wait to have. Because healing only comes with being brave enough to get honest with those who’ve hurt us, especially our loved ones. I hope you are as inspired by this conversation as I am.  Resources and Links Dr. Laura Berman Language of Love Podcast Laura Berman Instagram – Dr Laura Berman Facebook – Dr Laura Berman Youtube.com – Dr Laura Berman  Laura Dern Instagram – Laura Dern Twitter – Laura Dern Honey, Baby, Mine: A Mother and Daughter Talk Life, Death, Love (and Banana Pudding) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love.

Laura Dern and her mother, Diane Ladd, are well-known, well-respected, amazingly talented and accomplished actors. But when Diane Ladd was diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis and given just months to live, Laura was unwilling to give up on her. The one thing the doctor said might help was to take her mother on a 15-minute walk every day, hoping that that might force the scar tissue to release on her lungs, allow for a little more breath. But Diane could hardly walk, much less go for longer walks. She could hardly breathe. Laura discovered that the one way she could convince her mother to walk was through distraction. How? Asking questions about their lives. And there began a journey between the two of them that transformed both of their lives.

Not only is Diane Ladd still here three years later, back to acting, thriving, and so much healthier than she was before, but both women believe that a large part of the healing actually happens through those conversations. In their new book, Honey, Baby, Mine, they lean on each other. They talk to each other. They have those conversations that you're very likely to have when you believe you only have a few months left with someone who you shared a life with. One of the greatest lessons that comes out of this conversation and this book, I think, is to not wait to have those important conversations. Listen in as I talk to Laura and Diane,

at least for a little bit, about their journey together, what they discovered about life, about love and about grace through having the most honest conversations of their lives and how you too might be inspired to have similar honest conversations with the ones you love.

Diane Ladd and Laura Dern. I am so thrilled to have you guys join us on the Language of Love. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. It's our pleasure. So happy to be with you. Yeah, we were talking a little bit before we started recording. Just full disclosure, Laura and I not only share a name, which actually we're going to get into because I think you were named, and Diane, you can speak to this in a minute, but I think you might've been named with the same inspiration that I was named because we're both named Laura, but we also both have children. And I think Jaya is your youngest one as well. Jaya and Jackson are in school together and are getting ready to graduate high school together.

I know. So it's a huge week for us. It's this unbelievable experience. It really is. It's a huge milestone and it's also a huge transition because we're also both transitioning to Empty Nests. Yeah. Laura, are you referring to that you think your parents named you after the film Laura? From Dr. Zhivago. Is that what you named her for, that character, or was it?

No, I got to the planet a little bit before you did. And Laura was a beautiful film, originally with Gene Turney. And so there was another film all about the whole movie was Laura. And Gene Turney was a magnificent actress. and that beautiful name stayed in my mind and of course Dr. Zhivago did a recap on it yeah oh I see so you went with the original inspiration my mother was inspired by Dr. Zhivago yeah and that song Laura is yeah that's right yeah yeah indeed indeed I've always really liked my name. Have you liked your name? I have liked my name. I don't know if you experienced,

there was a whole slew of people in my class for a while, probably because of Dr. Zhivago named Laura, but then it went away and I meet very, very few people under 50 names. Laura. Yeah. Guys, I can't stay with you today. I'm so sorry. No, that's okay. I'll deal with your puppy. Laura, I got a great movie coming out called Isle of Hope. It's magnificent. I'm a star in it.

Oh, good. And it's an independent movie. Nobody gets killed or raped or beat to death. It's a movie for people. It'll be out sometime this year. But I have a little problem here with my doggie. And I send you light and love, both of you and all your listeners. But my doggie is about to take a trip, honest to God, to heaven.

and I'm going to help her make her transition. So say a little prayer for my Abby, everybody. We will. I will love you and you have a great time. It's part of life. We were born and I believe life goes on a long time, many acts. So enjoy this moment together and God bless you. Okay.

Love you. Bye-bye. Oh, and bless your pup too. Oh, love you, mama. Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry for her and Abby, and I'm sorry for that interruption. So I think that was such a beautiful moment because Matt is in a nutshell, the tone of the book.

Yeah, exactly right. And by the way, radically, it started the journey really started because my mom lost her other dog and she had been very sick for quite a while. We didn't know why. And her lungs were hurting. And then she had adopted this dog, Ginger, who was in the TV series Enlightened for HBO that mom and I did together. And she was a movie dog that retired and mom loved her very much. And she went out to go to the bathroom one night and there was dew all over the grass. And mom was surprised there was so much dew so early in the night. And the dog came in and subsequently had three seizures and died in mom's arms.

And when the doctors tried to figure out what had happened to her, they discovered that she was exposed to pesticides, to glyphosates, which had been sprayed, which means that that had been happening to my mom unknowingly for the three years prior in neighboring farms around her home here in Southern California. And they did blood work and discovered the pesticides were in mom's system. And the miracle of that was we knew what was happening. You know, they were able to rush to treatment for the immediate, the long-term trauma around it was that a lung specialist here in LA told me while my mom was five feet from me, be gentle with your mom. She'll be dead in three months. Oh my gosh. And my mom was like, I can hear you. It was like a horrific, horrific

trauma. I mean, it's like, guys, I'm right here. As my mom would be telling you that was four years ago and she did two movies, a TV show and wrote a book with me. So she said, that's why they call it practicing medicine, Laura. Yeah. Cause they're practicing. Yeah. So she said, you know, they gave us really no information about options, medical support of any kind. And I said, is there nothing we can do? And the doctor said, well, if you get your mother walking, maybe it will expand her lung capacity and get more oxygen in her. And so that really began a journey that had no intention of a book attached to it, but merely how do I get her distracted enough when she's in pain, on oxygen, and really suffering physically to start building her ability to walk a little

further every day over the course of several months, which we did. I moved her closer to the ocean where the air quality was good for a few months. And we walked every morning and I decided to record her because we thought this was it. And I said, we have these months, let's tell each other everything. And let me archive your stories for your grandchildren. And as mom says, I thought I was dying, so we spilled the beans. And as my mother has learned through her life, and I think all of us learn, we often wait for the deepest of conversations. We wait in marriages, we wait in family, we wait in parenting or being parented. And even in our deepest of friendships, we sometimes avoid the hardest of discussions. And frankly, as the daughter who is an only child

of a mother who is a single mom and an only child, and we've worked together as actors on several films and are incredibly close, it amazes me how little I'd asked. Not just about the things I thought I should avoid because I didn't want to bring up pain. I didn't want to make anyone feel old trauma, old wounds. Yeah. Thinking that it would be harder for the individual, not realizing ultimately it could be profoundly healing, which we discovered on this journey. But even as an actress, daughter of an actor that I never asked, what was the first movie you saw that inspired you? Why did you want to become an actress when you were in this tiny town in Mississippi. I just, what's your favorite color? You know? So we asked the mundane and the

deepest and it was a profound healing and it set forward a new kind of mantra in my life and with my kids to ask the questions. And it's really, I've watched it change a number of relationships recently. Wow. How profound is that? And it's not just asking the questions, although that's a huge part of it. It's also what I was really also touched by was the completions, right? Because it's not just asking the questions and asking everything that you ever, and that's what I always say to people because I've now fortunately or unfortunately ushered many people in my personal life through this transition, both my parents, one of my grandmothers, the other one at the very end, I didn't have a chance to really talk to her, but I had time with my mother, my father and my

grandmother and my Sasa. I called her my, my kind of spiritual mother, my mother's best friend, kind of like Avril was for your, you know, your mom's friend. So I really learned through that process to, and it was really, I learned with my mom first and foremost, because she was the first one to go, to take that time and say, I remember a coach and a good friend of mine was the one that first said it to me, say everything you want to say. Cause I was like, how do I, my mother's dying. She's terminal. Like, what do I do? And she just said, look, grab onto her leg. If you want to cry, if you want to tell her how sad you are, but also tell her everything you want to tell her, ask her everything you want to ask her so that there are no regrets and what ifs and should

have asked or I should have said and nothing that you're carrying with you. And I remember it really struck me, and this is kind of also what I thought was so beautiful about your story, the two of you, you and your mom, is that she's still here, right? So she gets to benefit from this too. But what also dawned on me as all, because I did this with my mom, I did this with my dad, I did this with Sasa, I recorded, I thought finally to record Sasa, which I'm so grateful to have those recordings, but they said, you know, this time they're going, right? So this time is actually for you. Like this is part of your grief is in the letting go and healing and saying all those things that what I thought was so cool about your story with your mom is that you got to do

that and she's still here, right? And, you know, she was supposed to be here three months and she's been here three years and still going, you know, helping her daughter transition. I mean, because you guys talk about it all, right? You get into friendships and maternal guilt and what actually happened in her divorce from your dad and in her other relationships and in your relationships and sex and friendships. I mean, you get into it all and you have a lot of completions, I think, you know, like things that, that you'd never really talked about ways that she'd hurt you. Not that she ever intentionally hurt you, but we all know that despite all our best efforts, we screw with our kids. Yeah. Yeah. But you were able to talk about those things.

Yeah. It was so incredibly freeing and it's amazing to see oneself through the conversations. Sometimes, as you said, it's what you need to say. It's what you've always wanted to ask. And then there's also the transparency of the truth about oneself that comes up. I'm like, wow, I really want to dig in and show my mother this thing that hurt. or this, you know, and then I get myself reflected to me, like talking to my mom about my father and her bringing up her sex life with my dad. And I become this like 14 year old in discomfort and shame, you know, which is crazy. Like, of course I wanted my, why wouldn't we want our parents to have had a great sex life if we, if we came from that love story, but the kid, you know, shows up And then, you know, there's a whole nother aspect of self that you learn about that's, you know, really interesting. And I've got to say, I think the deepest reflection I've had from all that we shared and all that we talked about is that the end goal is not forgiveness. That the end goal is not even agreeing with someone else's point of view. It's having been heard and it's being willing to hear and acknowledge each other's truth, even if it's not yours.

And so that was amazing. And I hope for people who share in reading or listening to the book that if anybody can take something from it, it's that we're all so outraged by the division in this country, but we have it in our own homes. And if we're not figuring out the healing in our own home, how are we going to ask the country to reflect something different? So I hope, be it human discourse in general or family shame or grief or religious or political views, that we really try to hear each other. and we have not changed our opinions about several fights and things that you've read in the book one being since my mom isn't with us right now and it's me on the podcast i can tell you that i still believe she was absolutely in the wrong and if she were here she'd tell you that she was absolutely in the right which was when my mother cut my son's or had my son's hair cut i was cracking Oh, I know. And so many people bring that story up because they have had a similar experience. And so, you know, we, by the way, that's one of the conversations we had. And now we're fighting

more about it today than we did when it first happened. But again, it's not about agreeing, but it's about that. We shared how that had made us feel. And I saw that again and again, And I was going to mention that I'm really glad you brought that up because I thought that was a really beautiful part of the dialogue is that there were several times and you, I don't know how much you edited or didn't edit the conversation, but it reads like a real conversation, even with you kind of interrupting each other at times, you know, if she did what a lot of us did right or do where you would bring up something that hurt, like maybe just the fact you totally accepted that she was this amazing, productive and talented actor.

And yet you were in a lot of pain with as much as she was gone. You had your grandmother who took amazing care of you, but still it was painful to be away from her, you know, and she kept saying, yes, but what about all the amazing experiences and what about the model? And all that is true. Right. And you kept holding her feet to the fire by like, yeah, mom, that's true. But that doesn't negate the fact that it was painful. And in fact, I now see it even more so. You were like kind of holding her perspective and yours now that you're this amazing, productive actor who's often away from her kids as they were growing. Right. And so you were living the same life in many ways that she was. And so, but I thought it was so beautiful how that's literally what you were kind of saying to her with, you said it with a more kind of meta view just now, but you were saying to her, look, I know all the gifts that came out of having you for a mom and, and, you know, the things that make it okay, maybe, but it also still fricking hurt.

And it was hard at times. And I just need you to listen to that. You don't have to make it better. You don't have to justify it. You don't have to make excuses. Just say, I'm sorry. Interestingly, parallels of our lives. There was a morning I had had that walk with my mother.

And the minute I said to her, mom, you know, I want you to know how much it hurt and how much I missed you when you were gone. Yeah. And she said, you didn't miss me. Are you kidding? You were so lucky. You met all these amazing people because of me. And you were thrilled when I was gone.

You got to just play with your grandma and get away with more. And I had to stop her and say, mom, look what you're doing. I don't know if that's your shame or your insecurity about being a working mother. But yes, all of that is true. Yes, all the gifts are true, as you just said. And it still hurt. And I still missed you. So we have this conversation, get in my car and I run into you at our favorite family coffee shop next to our kid's school. And we were sitting at Bluey's and I said to you, I don't know if you remember this. I was like, oh, I was just, you know, talking out with my mom about parenting or something like that. And you were like, oh my God. And we were laughing about it. I pick up my daughter and we're driving home and Jaya says, Oh mom, you know, there's something at school tomorrow, whatever. And I said, Oh Jaya, I can't be there because I'm starting work. I'm going

on location for those four days or whatever. And she looked crushed and she said, mom, who's going to go with me? Like I, that I thought you were going to be here and I don't want to be without you this weekend. And I was like, are you kidding Jaya? You're going to have the time of your life without me there. I said, you don't even want me at that. And then it just, I heard my mother in my voice and it had been an hour and I was repeating the behavior. It was shocking. And so I had to regroup and say, oh my God, I'm defending my case. Like my mother defended hers because of my guilt. And of all people, I know this sucks. This is the worst. I missed my mom so much. How am I leading the witness by making you feel better when it's horrible? I don't know

about you, but given that we're of the same generation, I mean, our mothers and their generation were such pioneers in giving us the deep understanding that we had a right, not only a right, we owed it. Wow. Responsibility. It was a responsibility as an act of service and career and passion to fulfill our passions, our dreams, our abilities, our gifts. And yet still on a cellular level, there is something in our generation, which is sort of between what our kids are feeling and what our mothers felt, which is damn right. We're going to be in the workplace, gender equity. We're going to do everything. But ambition is still a dirty word. And we should feel guilt because should we really be without the kids? And I mean, I don't know. I think it's true for Jackson and Jaya. I mean, they're just like, we're doing everything. We're going to wear all the hats. Yeah. We can do whatever the hell we want.

Yeah. So exactly. And that's just so incredible. And ambition in the girls that I'm around, thanks to Jaya, is just like a gorgeous trait. And it was something to feel such shame about, I think, in our generation. Ambition was getting in the way of good mothering. You know what I mean? So thank God we're breaking down those barriers. We are, but it's still hard to navigate. I mean, my mother put me to bed every night when I was little because she was not a single mom like your mom. She had an amazing education, was brilliant, had an amazing advertising job. But she married my dad right out of college. And as soon as she started going up the ranks at this advertising company where she was a copywriter, he didn't want her being away

from home. Like the joke in our family, which really did happen, was there was one of these consciousness raising meetings in the building, you know, where the women would get they called at Conscious Raising where they would get the women together and talk about women's liberation and whatever. And so my mom had gone to the meeting with all the women and my dad calls the apartment where she is to ask her when she's coming home to make dinner. You know, like that was the guy. Oh my God. Amazing. Can you imagine? So her mantra was always like, don't ever depend on a man. Always make, cause I think she, as much as she and my dad ended up for the last 20 years of their 40 something year marriage. She came into her own, found her powers. They

had a beautiful relationship for the second half. The first half, which was my entire developmental life, it was not. And so she would literally put me to bed every night, making me promise I would be president. That was how invested she was in me having a full career. And then I get married, have my oldest, Ethan, end up being totally bamboozled, cheated on, horrific, leave that guy, take my little one and a half year old son where I'd been living in Spain with him, move back to the States and rebuild my life. And I'm a single mom. And I start developing this amazing career. I write my first book. I have a television show. I'm doing all this stuff. My career is taking off. I'm balancing. And all she would talk about is how much my little boy

missed me and how sad it was that I wasn't with him. And I would say, mom, what the hell are you doing? You pounded into my head every night that I should be president. And now you're telling me and I've launched this amazing career. Now you're telling me that I'm not enough of a mother. And it really struck me in that moment, the dichotomy that they're really stuck in. But your mom wasn't right. And did it back to what I read in those conversations was that she was helping you take yourself off the hook as well. Like, no, she did. Yeah. She, you should not be. Yeah. But you know, the, the heartbreak is I didn't talk to her about it when I needed it most. I didn't talk to her about it when I was going through a divorce. I didn't talk to her

about it when I was figuring out how to do it all. I waited, you know, till I was deep in the process of their developmental years to ask her and be let off the hook and stop beating myself up. But it's interesting because of the single mom heroes that I was raised around, there was another stigma, which is interesting. And I'm sure it's something you've covered in your work and on this podcast, but it's interesting to me because it's not something I've had deep conversations with women about. And mom and I talk a little bit about it. There's so much more room to discuss, which is relationship and the career. Like my mom gave me room to know that I could truly mother while having an amazing career. But all the women I was raised around as a little girl,

the men couldn't handle their career. Or the men, as your mother went through in the first half of the marriage, the men didn't want them working. Or if they were two artists, the man didn't want her light to be bigger than his light. But the only way you can be fully expressed is alone. Exactly. And that was definitely messaging that I got in early childhood, either alone or in a partnership with a man who celebrates you and adores you, but has zero interest in being a public figure or in a position of power. Or, you know, and I mean, my God, we know so many friends now where either same-sex couples or, you know, in a relationship with a man and woman where the man is at home and providing for the children and the woman is working. But, you know, none of this in our childhoods would we be as a model. And so it, what it set up for me was not, I'm not going to be in relationship and thank

God I was longed for intimacy and deeply invested in relationship and creating home in a way I didn't have all of those things. But there was fear when in the relationships about, I hope I'm not too much. I hope my career isn't overwhelming. So it's sort of like, you always felt like you were supposed to keep your career as this private space that you didn't really talk about with the family or, and I think I felt that with the kids too, because being raised by two actors, there was so much talk about career.

Yeah. It's funny how we all parent like in reaction to how we were always, it's incredible. And I, and I think, yeah, and I think that was amazing to talk to mom about the reactive parenting, you know, the sort of in reaction to even in kind of retaliation against, I think for her, like the way she guided me toward if I wanted to act or not, it was like, how am I going to do this? That's totally not like how my mother handled it, which is its own pitfall. I'm sure even if it's working out for you. As most of you know, for the past several years, I've been on a pretty intense grief journey. And it's been a path of healing. I've shared lots of that healing with

you and lots of the healing resources that I found. And I am so thrilled to announce that I am doing my first ever retreat for grieving mamas. So if you or someone you love is a mama who has lost a child in any way, at any stage, at any age, I would love for you to come join me at 1440 Multiversity in the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, California for four amazing days of beautiful, uplifting community and healing. We've got David Kessler. We've got Paul Selig. We've got Catherine Woodward-Thomas. We've got me. We've got body work. We've got organic food, beautiful rooms. Go to 1440.org. Check it out. It's right there on the homepage. I really hope you can join us. I thought it was really beautiful the way she was guiding you you were talking I guess you were

I don't know if you're still involved with this person but at the time you were having this conversation you had just sort of started to get involved with a guy he was busy you didn't even know you were dating but you heard through the grapevine that he had said you were dating there were many times you would be with him and then he wouldn't text or call for a week she said what I wanted to say to you, which is like, no, like if he's in, you know, I don't remember how she said it, but she was like, that's not normal. That's not okay. How would it be if you actually had a relationship with him? If this is how he's acting now. And I thought that was really beautiful because she clearly loves, loves she's had many. And I love what she was saying. And I, and I think

you were saying you agree with her is that there's not just one soulmate, but every relationship is a soulmate. Every relationship grows our soul. And it seems like she, even though she was a single mom, I know she's married now and she's been married before, not just to your biological dad, but I guess to someone else. I don't know how many marriages she's had, but she's clearly open to love. Many single moms and career women of her time were not. They either would go in one direction where it was man after man after man, and they couldn't stand to be alone. And they would have all these messed up dysfunctional relationships, a revolving door that their kids had to deal with. Or they go the opposite way where they just make their entire life about their kids and or their career and don't let anyone in.

Exactly. And I think my grandmother was an amazing example of that in that she in the book, we talk about how my grandmother had moved out. She's from Mobile, Alabama and been in Mississippi. Divorced my mom's father. They went through a divorce right when mom left home, really, when she was 16. And she remarried rather quickly. And they had come out to take care of my mom's children, first my sister, and then he passed away from cancer. and she was alone for a number of years, but she loves love as she loved love and intimacy. My grandma, big flirt and just adorable. And one thing that I think was huge for my mom to heal the parts of her that were longing for partnership was my grandma met a man who offered her umbrella in the rain when they were walking to the supermarket and remarried, I believe at 71 and had an amazing third and final marriage in her life that was sexy and wonderful kind partnership and sharing adult children and grandchildren. So I think that really helped

my mom open the door to that for herself in these last, you know, 15, 20 years of her life. That's really beautiful. And she's married now, right? Yeah. Which has been, you know, so great to see her enjoy partnership in a totally different way. And with someone in a very different business, a businessman from Texas, totally different life than she had had. And I always talked to her about this because she's, you know, surrounded by girlfriends who are single now and in their eighties who are amazing goddess, actress, singers, writers. I'm like, they should date so-and-so. They should go out with, she's like, honey, they don't want to have a boyfriend. I'm like, girl, they want to have a

boyfriend. They should like, you know, that intimacy isn't only about your sexual partner. I mean, maybe it is if that's what you want, but also like going to dinner and sharing books you love and films you love. And my friendships are everything. They're my sisterhood and my greatest company. So I love that mom is also an advocate for that for so many other women. You spoke a lot to that. And I think that was another one of the beautiful messages in the book that I 100% agree with is that it's not just the family that we're born into, right? It's the family that we create, not just through our nuclear families we build, but with our community of friends and sisters and that sisterhood that she modeled for you. You wrote so beautifully about

being on the shag rug, listening in to their kibitzing and conversations, your mom and her girlfriends, and really feeling like you were in many ways raised by a community of women that supported each other. And there was that really beautiful story you wrote about, or maybe it was actually in one of your conversations, because just for those of you who haven't yet read the book, there is this kind of dialogue, which is almost like a transcript of the conversation. And then each Diane and Laura both kind of weigh in posthumously with some commentary about background or reactions even to that conversation. But one of the times you spoke about was this moment where your mom had just had this big creative download is what I call them,

where you suddenly get this idea that's really exciting of something you want to build or create or write or do. And she was really in that. And then there was also the 3D kind of practicality that she was getting ready to take you over to your dad's to visit. And in that moment, her friend who was your godmother came in and said, no, like you don't have to put on your lipstick and try to make yourself presentable and put on a peaceful face and go see your ex-husband and his girlfriend and take you stay here in this amazing creative flow and let me take Laura to her dad's. Yeah. And that really struck you. I wonder if you can speak to that since we're talking about not only that piece of creative inspiration, which I know is a huge message for

you and honoring that, but also the power of being raised by a village. It was everything, you know, it was everything for me emotionally and artistically to have not only artist friends of my mother's who influenced me about their craft and their commitment to storytelling, which was huge, but on a human level, on a parenting level, you know that we have broken moments and when we don't give ourselves space to be vulnerable because we think we're supposed to be super parents that someone else can step in and say give yourself vulnerability also i was fed in the same way by those women that i could come to them knowing as we learn as kids who've been through a you know divorced parents that i could go to

a few of these amazing women in my life who were like, truly like my aunts and say, I'm struggling with something with my dad. And I want to figure out how to deal with it because my mother of course can only see it from her perspective. And it's loaded with either resentment and attack. So she can't hear me or defending him because she feels guilty. And she wants me to love my father. Either way, I don't win because I can't be heard. And now I really understand that as a parent. And so those were women who could really hear me and give me great advice. And a couple of men in mom's life too, who are so amazing, who I talk about in the book,

this village of friends who helped her parent me through hard experiences or big decisions. Do I go to college? Do I take this first big movie job? Do I, you know, just all of it, you know? and now I see that with my kids. I mean, I have a few of my core girlfriends who I also speak about in the book who have guided my kids in massive ways, you know, supported them in listening about the silly fun stuff. And also when they're in a time of, you know, mental health emergencies and, you know, first relationships and job questions. Oh my God,

You know, I just it's been the gift of my lifetime, my children and these incredible sisters. And quite frankly, I think absolutely, if you're a single mom, that is crucial. But I feel like every kid needs at least one really loved and trusted adult who isn't their parents, you know? Oh, my God. Yes. Bounce this stuff off of.

And when it is those people who are your soul friends, who you really trust emotionally and intellectually and literally, that's an amazing gift, not only to give your kids, but to give yourself. Yeah. So, so important. And you and your mom really share that. She really modeled that and encouraged that. My mom didn't. My mom had tremendous social anxiety and very few friends. but for whatever reason, and I had social anxiety when I was really young, I got over it by the time I was probably in my mid to late twenties. But ever since then, you know, my community of sisters has sustained me through everything. And I think that's such an amazing gift that you were raised with that as well. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so blessed. That's amazing too, that you were able to

find that in yourself without it being modeled and also by your nature being, you know, shy or uncomfortable socially. That's amazing. Given what you do now, that's just incredible. Oh my God. Well, basically I'm not shy about anything anymore. Let it all hang out. Yeah. The people that I attract in and the people that I'm attracted to are others that just really honor that authenticity, you know, and, and want to live from that too. And I have a sibling, but in many ways I was for lots of different reasons. I was raised an only child and also still am kind of an orphan only child. So that soul family is so extra important. I think when you don't have actual siblings, it's even harder. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's the same for me. And that's why,

I, you know, throughout the book and in my life, and I'm always referring to close friends as my sister because they really truly are. I mean, but Belina being the daughter of Averill, who's in the book a lot, you know, I met at age one. And so we were raised as sisters, but now I've had the privilege of collecting sisters in an industry where there were almost no women on a movie set when I started working. And when we would find each other through work, it was like a miracle and you'd hold on for dear life because there was someone with your experience. And now as it's shifted more and more, I've had the privilege of finding friends through crew and cast through the work that I've been privileged to do. And we have shared life experience and also shared

journeys and raising family while we're also doing these jobs. And that's just been incredible given that when I started the story was who actresses are, you know, the worst to each other backstab. Yeah. All about Eve. Well, I mean, it's, it's part of it is myth. And part of it is that until, and your mother spoke to this in the book when she, I think she was describing a, some show she was doing a talk show or something. And she was, that was the premise, but she was basically saying, you know, it's, we're not going to have equal rights until we support each other women. That's right. And, you know, it's all this scarcity mentality. And I talk to women, as I know you do in other industries that talk to me in the world of tech, in the world of

publishing, you know, where it's one, literally one seat at the table, if you're lucky is going to go to a female, a white female, and you've got to claw your way through a generation or several generations to think, you know, to be that one person. And the world has completely changed in the last 20 years. Thanks to voice. Yeah. Only voice has shifted that. Yeah. And because of the truth, because of people using their voice, it's shifted because of thoughtful people who want to move us toward the future and because of others who've been shamed into having to have comps of other companies who are willing to be leaders. Either way, it's changing. Thank God so that our kids have a very different experience and that boardrooms and stories

we're witnessing are reflective of our true diverse community. I was so moved, I have to say. We had a ceremony for our kids last week that we were all at together and being part of a community that our school has of such true representation, the most deeply representative class I have seen in all the schools my other kids and stepkids have gone to. I've never seen anything like it. And both with how they honor being respectful of creating community, the spectrum program that they've created, and also putting their money where their mouth is literally with over 50% in financial aid. It's incredible to see that reflected and that our kids have, from the beginning of their lives, grown up with what their microcosm of culture should look like. And hopefully they can carry that in every workplace environment they end up in. Yeah. That's my, honestly, one of my favorite, favorite. And the

reason I sent my son to that school is because there is such a, like a very clear and intentional effort that it has been successful. It's not just talk, right? Actually do create a community that has every color, every socioeconomic status, every kind of orientation and identity that you can imagine. What she's talking about, guys, is this thing they call the pinning ceremony, where all the seniors come together with their caregivers, parents, whoever their people or person is. And one by one, they call the kid up on the stage. And while the parent pins them, they finish basically the sentence with this pin. I express deep appreciation for your qualities of and then you basically say the intention is to kind of reflect back to the child really being

seen for the gifts that they have and the gifts that they are and giving the parents a chance to honor them. And it was really, really beautiful. It was so incredible. I'm staring at one of the the, we're on a podcast where I'm staring at one of the creatures. Jackson, I can't hear you, but Jackson. Oh my gosh. Tell Jackson. Can I say hi? You can't, she can't hear you, but she'll see you on Sunday graduation. Holy yet. I know, but that was really incredible. And again, it's, it's back to our conversation, right, reflecting back that we see them and that we've heard them and acknowledging their gifts and all they offer is really was an amazing opportunity. And I wish all schools did it.

I thought it was incredible. Well, so going back to that time, you were in the car with Jaya after we spoke and after your mother and you had had this conversation and you were starting to, you know, it is a four. We're not narcissists, but it is a form of gaslighting when we do that. you know, like, oh yeah, you know, right. So you were, you were gaslighting her, right? Absolutely. And so what did you do? Did you stop yourself and say, oh God, look at what I'm doing and say something to her about it? Yeah. I literally heard my mother's words from an hour before and, you know, stop myself and said, my God, this is what my mother did. This is what She just said, and I guess I feel such guilt about leaving that I'm trying to somehow justify it and make it okay for you, but I'm not giving you an opportunity to feel what you feel and share what you're feeling.

And then we had a profound conversation, which has shifted the narrative since then entirely, which is not only does she share with me everything she's feeling, but I shared with her that I totally understand it because I was someone her age with an actress mom having to be on location. I have a working mom. Yeah. So I also, with a working grandma, don't get to leave her at home with this relative who loves her more than anything. And I've been blessed to have a couple of people in their lives in early childhood who were the most incredible caregivers and family, ultimately, I could have ever found. And I talk about both Imelda and Marbelli in the book who were extraordinary sisters in helping raise these amazing kids. But you've got to find your village if you're lucky. Yeah.

You know, and we both know women who have held down three jobs and can't afford the babysitter. No. And the older sibling is having to make food and get the younger siblings to school. and how, you know, single moms all over the world are surviving and working like dogs. And by the way, it's a luxury to have the time to sit and say to your kid in the moment, how are you feeling? Yeah. Sometimes we, yeah.

Cause we're just barely breathing and exactly in the night trying to pay the rent and put food on the table. So exactly. And so with that, you know, it's like finding a way to just remember, even if you have five minutes, to really check in with your kid about the fact that this is hard. It's not the way you wished it would be instead of justifying it is, I suppose, all we can do ultimately. Yeah. And that was one thing my mom did teach me. And she learned it actually from my dad's mom. She would always talk about my Nana, who I was also really close to and how one of the things

she adored, she was really close. She wasn't close to her own mother at all. She was really close to my dad's mom. Mostly she said, because she didn't say it this way, I'm paraphrasing, but basically my grandmother was not defensive. Like you could tell her something that she had inadvertently done to hurt her and she would own it. Be like, I really didn't mean that. I'm so sorry what can I do to make it right and is there anything I can do to make it right right and my mother that really hit home for my mom she would always say you can tell me anything and you can tell me the ways I've screwed up and I will basically hold it I won't get defensive and she did stick to that and that's I think why I felt so free toward the end of you know during those

last months to to tell her everything in a loving way not in a way that I like covered her in shame But right. And I know you probably are starting to, too, as your kids get older. But I face that with my now 26 year old who was just here last weekend and something came up and he was sharing with me something that happened that was traumatizing to him when he was little. And I played a role in it. And inadvertently, you know, it was. Oh, I know what it was. He had cancer. He had childhood cancer, leukemia, and he was and it created all of this medical trauma that he's been dealing with for his whole life. But one of the things that was the most traumatic to him was and we were talking about how hospitals still don't have adequate systems in place to make medical treatment less traumatizing for kids. And what was traumatizing is this one incident that he vividly remembers of a medical student or resident being monitored by his learning to do a spinal tap on my son. And he missed twice. Oh, my God. And and then on the third time, got it. And the spinal taps themselves were a big part of his trauma because he had to stay really still and really quiet. And he would pull me in on him and make me into a cave over him like that helped him. But it also became part of this claustrophobia for him of being trapped and having this medical procedure, basically being violated, you know.

And so what he said to me that really was so painful for me to hold, he's like, what I wish you had done or some grown up in the room had done is say to that doctor, you have missed twice. And my kid is traumatized. We are not doing this today. I am taking him home. When he said stop, I said stop. Right. But I was 30 years old, my first time being a mom with this three-year-old kid who was going to die if he didn't get treatment. And all I could think about was getting him the treatment,

no matter what, like keeping his ass alive. So I had to say, you know what? And I wanted to say all of that. And instead I was like, you know what? That didn't even occur to me. I was so caught up in fear myself and just wanting you to get the treatment that I didn't even really see you. And that would have been a good opportunity to give you your voice. We could have come back a week later. And I didn't understand that at the time. Yeah, that was hard to take. I wanted to be defensive about it. Yeah. You know, but those conversations start coming up more and more and more as they age. And so that's one of the things that I think this book models so beautifully is not only how crucial it is not to leave anything unsaid or asked,

but also modeling a beautiful way to hold it. Yeah. That's such a profound story and example. Thank you so much for sharing that because that is the essence of it completely. Now we can hold space and do the listening and not need to justify our behavior necessarily, Particularly with our kids. So that's just incredible. It is the complete intent of why it's a book. It's mom and I just longing to share with others that our experience not only deepened our relationship and changed our relationship with others and how we relate to others, but my mom got better. And my mom got better dramatically when we spoke about the most painful moments of her life. Within 48 hours, my mother's breathing changed. My mother didn't need

an oxygen machine after talking about deepest trauma that I thought I should avoid because I didn't want to hurt her. So it wasn't just the emotional healing. It was literally a physical transformation. They are the same. I just got full body chills as you were saying that. That is so profound and so 100 percent true. And, you know, you guys know, listening in, if you've listened to my interview with Gabor Mate, he talks extensively about how trauma that is in process stays trapped in the body, contributes to inflammation and illnesses, and that when people are finally able to really speak the truth, bring the things that have been in the darkness and then shadow into the light, that tremendous healing happens. and how profound. I mean, I have no doubt that bringing the shame into the light and having it held and processed and released was a huge part of her healing, as was the walking, which physiologically passed the scar tissue that had been built there and kind of allowed her lungs to recover. And thank you, pandemic, right? Silver line, that every single day you were walking with

her because it was life or death, right? And that's the other thing. Don't wait until it's life or death to walk with your loved ones, metaphorically or literally. Exactly. Exactly. And don't wait one day beyond this to ask the questions, to pick up the phone, to share in an email, to take a walk together and to say, hey, I've always wondered, or hey, how are you doing about this? And, you know, we even taught, we talked about death in our very first conversation because mom needed to talk about it. It was me. It was like, ah, you know, don't bring that up. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. And a doctor just said it out loud. What are we going to do? Avoid the conversation. So

that was, that was profound healing too. Yeah. To be able to talk to that. My mom was the same way. No one would talk. She goes, I need to, I was like, okay, tell me everything. And she went through this long laundry list of what needed to happen and how to watch out for my dad and all the things she was after, like all this stuff. And then at the end, I just listened. And at the end, she was like, I felt so good. I may need to do that again. I was like, all right, you know, do it again. But it was hard. It's hard. Right. You don't want to face that. I mean, I'm assuming you are too, but your mom, I love how she said, you know, if Shirley McLean was out on a limb, I remember that book when Shirley McLean, you know, wrote that book about her metaphysical beliefs, you know, your mom said, I'm, I was, I've been out on the branches, you know, I mean, Shirley McLean, she believes, and she even alluded to that as she was talking about her, you know, and she needed to get off when we

first started because the pup was sick and was getting ready to cross the rainbow bridge. You know, she alluded to the many lives and you alluded in the book, you know, where you got in trouble and she stood up for you in Catholic school when you mentioned, you know, believing in reincarnation. Yeah. So, you know, and she just alluded to that, that we live many lives. I believe that too, that our soul, and that was one of, she said that that was one of the issues that she had with your dad was that he didn't have the same perspective as she does on that. We're souls having a human experience. Yeah, exactly. Humans having a spiritual experience. Yeah, exactly. I won't give anything away and I don't want to hear because I haven't finished it like everybody else on the planet who's writing about it today. So I'm not looking at my phone, but I'm finishing watching the final season of Succession and a character in an episode, for those who haven't seen it yet, says, yeah, who needs a soul?

Yeah. And when you hear the line, it's so traumatizing. Yeah. You know, the selling of soul. Yeah. The lack of acknowledgement of soul or purpose or moral compass or something deeper than all of this is such an essential component to living. I mean, I wouldn't know how to do any of it without that. So I am so grateful that it is of such import on a cellular level to my mom and feel so grateful to that. And she's such a believer in angels and guides.

And are you a believer? I'm a believer. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I was, I learned to meditate when I was eight years old. And so I've always been, you know, deeply interested in some kind of grounding connection, whether it be to deepest self or soul or something greater than all of this or our angels. And also I just find life far more interesting. I don't understand the credo of disbelief. Like, well, we know there are no aliens. Really? Do we? Because a telescope has just discovered there are billions of other universes. And we're the only one. What do we know? Yeah. Like, what do we know about anything? Well, I always say we've taken 40 billion bits of information into our brains every millisecond, but only consciously processed 2000 of those 40

billion bits. So who's to say I know all the things that are happening in this now moment that our brains aren't even consciously processing. Exactly. Yeah. If we were raised with any kind of spiritual understanding, it was a very punitive and restrictive. Exactly. Horrific, mean God. Yes. In a version, right? We weren't raised with this kind of understanding that you've been raised with. Many of us have to come to that like I did later in life. So that's an amazing gift that she gave you as well. Yeah. So many, the gifts keep on, keep on giving when they're here with us and when they're not, I think that's something she's really prepared me for too, which has been really beautiful. Like the work she'll be continuing

to do because it's in the cells and because she believes in something greater. So. Yeah. And because energy can't be destroyed. It only changes form. Yeah. Beautifully put. But I've certainly learned that through, I mean, that's what our consciousness is, right? Is pure energy. In fact, I met this guy recently who wrote this thing called The Afterlife Frequency, this book, and he talks about the soul frequency and that the soul actually has an energetic frequency. It's what enervates us.

It's our whole essential God, self, soul, self, whatever you want to call it. And that is impossible to kill. The body dies, the casing that we're in, but the soul lives on. And I've certainly come to believe that and experience that and having that foundation while she's still here, may she live another hundred years will make it so much easier to hold. That's what I've really discovered, even through losing my son, is that that relationship continues or can continue if you're open to it.

It just changes form. And I think, you know, I was thinking about one of the things, and I know, you know, you probably have to go. I could talk to you for hours, but one of the things that I want to ask you before we end is, you know, she was and is such a huge voice and she's got such a huge personality and you both are such amazing, talented and accomplished actors and artists, but it must've been hard in some ways. I was thinking it's kind of amazing that you have stepped into the voice and the success that you have when, you know, and I think you spoke to this when you were saying like the intersection between like being your mother's daughter,

because it would be very easy to just be Diane Ladd, not just, but like in and of itself being Diane Ladd's daughter, right? And being your own mother, right? The intersection between being your mother's daughter and being yourself? I mean, I'm sure it's the case for so, so many people, be it their mother or their father, when you have an enormous personality or an iconic profile of a parent, the idea of they're extraordinary at their whatever this job or skill is and just storytellers and loud. And with both my parents that you, perhaps you find your voice because you must. I remember being really shy as a kid and I think acting definitely helped me find my understanding of myself and my place in the world. At a young age, I started acting at

So in those years, those teenage years of developing, who am I separate from family and everyone else? I think I definitely owe to that work. And I, you talked about your spiritual mother, my extraordinary spiritual mother, my acting teacher since I was 17, Sandra Seacat, who just passed away recently and has been my teacher since then. She really helped me so much in kind of being in the emotional journey toward understanding human behavior and self to reflect stories authentically in a way that I think helped me separate what's mine and what's theirs. And my mom, I think when she started seeing me show up in the world, and I say that not as an actor, but frankly, as a voice, even in terms of social justice work and things like that, I think she was very generous in being impressed and having that moment of seeing your child separate from you. Yes. Which I think is, is a thing that occurs for all of us, you know,

personality or not. Exactly. Yeah. You know, which you, you hope you have the humility to always know that about your kids, but it's easy to forget that they're their own being and we're just helping them discover themselves until they're ready to enter the world. But it's not us teaching them who to be. No, not at all. It's them teaching us. Yeah. Triggering us to learn and to lean into who we are. That's right. I always say they don't come from us. They come through us. That's right. And we just get to be their shepherds as long as they'll let us. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh, it's so amazing to get to talk to you and have this time together. You too. The book, guys, is called Honey Baby Mine, A Mother Daughter Talk, Life, Death,

and Love, and Banana Pudding. Really good recipes in there, actually. thank you so much thank you and gorgeous to talk to you here's to more and i will see you at graduation yeah graduation i hope to see you soon me too yeah me too that would be so special so much love beauty thank you thank you Thank you. You