Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - I'm Not a Mourning Person with Kris Carr

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

One of the hardest things any of us will ever do is say goodbye to someone we love. This is something wellness leader and best selling author, Kris Carr, knows all too well.   On this Language of Love Conversation, we discuss her newest book, I’m Not a Mourning Person, where she chronicles her long goodbye to her beloved father who passed away from pancreatic cancer after a several year battle. This is a powerful conversation so be sure to tune in. In this episode we discuss: The fact that grieving for a loved one often begins long before they’re gone and comes in a variety of forms. The power of training your eyes to see the presence of the energy of the one you lost and not simply living with their absence.  How losing it or having a meltdown can actually be a good thing.  Understanding that there truly is a difference between dying and leaving.  Why finding the courage to have conversations about dying is necessary. strategies for having the often hard, but always necessary, end of life conversations with loved ones that can help you move through their passing.  The power of (and when to) begin assuring your loved one that it’s ok to let go.  Resources and Links Dr. Laura Berman Language of Love Podcast Laura Berman Instagram – Dr Laura Berman Facebook – Dr Laura Berman Youtube.com – Dr Laura Berman  Kris Carr Kris Carr – Website Kris Carr - Instagram Kris Carr – Pinterest Kris Carr - Facebook About Kris Carr Kris Carr is a New York Times bestselling author and wellness leader who’s been thriving with stage IV cancer for more than 20 years. Over these past two decades, she’s learned some big lessons about how to take care of herself, live life to the fullest and continue making an impact in the process. She is a true champion of people, and she is honored to have shaped and impacted the lives of millions throughout the world.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love.

Chris Carr is a New York Times bestselling author, a wellness leader, and she has been living with stage four cancer for more than 20 years. That's been the subject of a lot of her teachings and her books. She's learned some big lessons along the way about how to take care of herself and live life to the fullest and make a significant impact on other people's health and wellness. Well, now she is expanding her journey to helping us all with a new book that is extremely personal about her own personal journey, saying goodbye to her beloved father when he died of cancer.

And the book is named I'm Not a Mourning Person, M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G. I'm not a morning person. What to expect when you're not expecting your world to fall apart. We are getting into it all, not only about the ins and outs of how to move through grief, but also how to navigate anticipatory grief. When you love someone who is facing terminal illness, chronic disease, degeneration, how do you handle the anticipatory grief? How do you move through grief with grace, feeling it all, but also staying connected soul to soul to the person you love. And how do you manage loss and move through it? Because you know what I'm always telling you, grief is a powerful portal. Chris Carr, I'm so happy to see you. It's been a while,

even though we're seeing each other remotely. I feel like I haven't seen you for some time. We haven't seen each other. And Laura, it is beautiful to see you. I have missed you. I know. I missed you too. We follow each other. We comment. I guess we met in person at an event. We were both speaking at years ago. Oh, it was Sherry Salata's event. Yeah, the This Is 50 event, I think it was. and I was so struck and I was thinking about this when I, we're going to talk about your book in a moment, because obviously this is a really powerful journey that you've been on that I think so many, all of us can relate to if we're on the planet right now. But I remember being really struck by, and I never forgot it because I had been until that point, I'd always come in for my talk, especially when I came to an event and I rarely stayed for the whole weekend,

but because so many people I loved and knew and cared about, you know, we're going to be there. I stayed for the whole weekend. So normally I just sweep in, do my talk and sweep out and being at that weekend event. And in particular, you probably, this didn't even register, but something you said to me or something I watched and you really touched me and changed the way that I attended meetings after that, because I was watching you and people were, it was, I don't know how many hundreds of people were there, but a lot of the speakers were just there. Like I think you were there the whole weekend as well. A lot of people were. And when you and I were sitting at a table, I think we were trying to eat and you could not eat because

one person after another was coming up to you. I think maybe you had just spoken or maybe it was just, but they were all coming up and telling you how they responded and how they impact. And you just kept, you didn't just say, okay, thank you. And like, go back to your food. You stood up and you spent 10 minutes talking to each person. And I was watching your husband, Brian, kind of like looking at you and being like, you need to eat, you need to sit down, you know? And I said to you, like, why don't you, I was kind of asking, I don't even remember asking you, but like, why don't you go and hide basically is what I was saying. I don't think I said it that way. And you said, I'm paraphrasing, but you basically said,

when I am here, I am theirs. I just hand myself over and I give them all my energy. And I mean, that was the implication. You didn't use those words. And that really struck me and touched me. And then from then on, when I go to meetings, I do the same thing. I don't spend my time trying, like I do if I need to reserve my energy, because you talked about this in your newest book, how you tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and overgive, right? So my guess, that's part of it. But, and maybe you do give a little bit more than is good for your health, but it really touched me. And I've never forgotten it. So I wanted to make sure to mention that to you before anything else that, cause I always love hearing the ways that I've accidentally or unintentionally had an impact

on someone, especially if it's for the positive. So. Thank you, Laura. That's wonderfully beautiful. You know, I will say that I prepare myself before and I wind down privately after, and I have come up with ways to not absorb energy because I live with stage four cancer. So a lot of the people who come up to me, they have very big, very powerful stories. And I've been holding that space for 20 years, stories of trauma, of devastation, of fear, of loss. And so learning how to make sure that I am not absorbed into that energy is part of why I can say when I'm here, I'm theirs in the generosity way, not in the like kind of bleeding my life force way. Right. Not letting them suck your life force or even, yeah, I mean, it can be a lot for

me too. It can be, you hear people want to tell you these horrific, painful, traumatizing, but also really inspiring and powerful stories. And it can easily bleed all over you in a way that's hard to shake off. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a really beautiful description of the balance. So the newest book is I'm Not a Mourning Person spelled M-O-U-R-N-I-N-G. And it's really about your grief journey. And I have to say, I remember because I may have even reached out to you when your dad passed away. And I know what a tremendous loss that must have been for you and was for you. But you announced really quickly. I mean, it felt like he had just been gone a little while and you were like, I'm going to write a book. And I remember thinking,

holy shit, I don't know if you should write a book right now because you just lost him. And I was like, I had this moment of like, this doesn't compute. And I almost reached out to you about it, but I thought like, that's none of my business. And then I forgot about it. And now I think it's been two years right two years later so you were just announcing it but then you I guess wrote it as you were on the journey which makes so much more sense to me you know so often in our field of personal empowerment people I just got divorced so I'm gonna write a book about it I just had my first baby so I'm gonna write a parenting book you know and I get it I'm the same way I heal learn teach right and we're teachers and we want to get it

out there, but it can be a rush sometimes. And I feel like it's important to integrate before you articulate. Oh, that's such a beautiful way to say it. I had been working on the book two years prior to his passing. It didn't have a name and it didn't have complete shape or form, but I really took a very big step back from my business, from my social life, from the grind, from speaking, from everything that I had been doing for the last up until that point, 18 years, now 20 years. When he was newly diagnosed, I literally had stepped off a stage and I stayed at my parents' house that night because it was a long journey back to my place and theirs was closer to the airport. And that was the night I

learned. So that was five years ago. And so for me, it was about journaling, keeping notes. I learn a lot about myself through my creativity. It has always been my spirituality, more so than a connection to a source energy or a God of my understanding. My creativity is that for me. And it's what I turned to when I was newly diagnosed. I started writing and then turned on the camera, didn't know where it would go. I just knew I needed to make sense of it. So it was really a five-year process and a process where I went back into therapy deeply. And I wouldn't have been able to navigate the terrain that I navigated if I hadn't had done that.

Yeah, I'm really glad you said that because I feel like with these big kahunas, you know, I call them, I have for decades, really since my cancer, I called my cancer an AFGE, another fucking growth experience, you know? And when we go through these things, they break us apart and break us open. You refer to it in the book as the rupture, right?

The rupture. But when it happens, these big kahunas of things, I think it's so important. And I'm really glad you said that you got into therapy because so often people think, oh, I just need to read a book. I just need to take a little course and I'm going to be fine. But you need that sounding board and that insight and that perspective on an ongoing basis. So I love that. But you also were talking about how you started writing the book two years before he actually passed, your dad. And you write a lot in the book, which I love, by the way, because I don't think there is enough writing

and resources for people experiencing anticipatory grief when someone is dying or even just going through a life-threatening illness as the caretaker, as the one who loves them. And I've been through that many times with both my parents and my grandparents. It's a process. There is a lot, especially toward the end

when it's clear there isn't much else to do. And even before that, when you're just scared, there's so much anticipatory grief. So I was wondering if you can, and that's why I guess what you were writing about and thinking about and processing over those two years. Yeah. I mean, I'm so happy that you brought that up because a lot of people don't pick up on that. Even people have just started doing interviews for the book. And I think that's so important. And just to take a big step back. So I'm not a morning person. What's the title about? It's really about no matter how much work I had done on myself as somebody who had an enormous amount of grief to experience as a person who

lives with stage four cancer through the process of my own rupture with my biological father and adoption and all these types of things. Every single one of us has a story and we all have our wisdom and our wounds and whatnot. And no matter how much work I had done on myself, it wasn't until this experience and it all kind of coalesced around my dad's diagnosis. I was headed towards my 20-year cancerversary of living with stage four cancer when I was given 10 years to live and I'm headed towards the 20-year mark. And that's very celebratory, but there was also something that was coming up for me that was very unsettling, which I couldn't put my finger on. We're in the middle of the pandemic. And as a result of all of these things that were happening,

my business was really faltering and it would continue to be difficult because I had to take a big step back because that's what I chose to do to be consciously a part of my dad's experience. And so I'm not a morning person. It's really about, I wasn't, I didn't have the tools for this emotion and the other big emotions that are grief's cousins that I didn't realize they all kind of come together at the club. And so I felt so unprepared for it. And I was very unprepared for not only how it felt, but also the symptoms and how it manifested in my body. So tell me more about that. How did it manifest? Oh, extreme fatigue, rage, no sense of memory. I used to forget where my keys were, that my

glasses were on my head. And then I literally remember the day where I walked into a parking line. I think it was at Target. And I had no recollection of what color my car was. And I literally was like, fuck, you have a brain tumor now. Now, like everything else, you need another tumor. Like you need another hole in your head. Are you kidding me? And I was like, no, you don't have to go into the fear-based panic and drama. This is what grief looks like. You're exhausted. You don't want to eat. And for some people, it's like, I can't eat enough, whatever it is, this is what grief looks like too. So when I realized that I had so little skill around this, that's when I got curious about it

because I realized that if I don't learn to embrace this emotion, like any other part of me, I say in the book, we can't amputate any of our emotions and expect to be whole. Believe me, I've tried. Haven't we all? then I don't think I will survive this as well as I could. And so when it comes to that's a little bit of the backstory and the book is broken down into the different chapters are really like different emotions and different experiences that I think are very common for us to navigate when the rug has been pulled out from under us. But with anticipatory grief, you know this so well,

but I didn't understand that grief happens long before the loss and so does some of the complicated emotions that'll come up like I would be sitting there watching television or sitting there planning my future or sitting there getting excited about something and then I would feel guilty because he might not be there to experience it with me or I would be sitting there and he would be talking to me and I would be thinking about what is it going to be like when he's not here to give me this advice. Then I would feel guilty that I wasn't present in the moment or even worse, I would get into this like, oh shit, law of attraction gone wrong. What if, if I think about it more and more and more, will I summon his early demise? You know what I mean? Like all

of the different places that we go, which may or may not be rational, but they're part of that anticipatory experience of grief. And I just thought I was crazy. Yeah. Well, most people do. I mean, even after and, you know, I think my experiences with my I've now ushered both my parents and both my grandmothers through and my spirit mother, my mom's best friend, who was like my second mom. I've been with all of them as they passed and took their last breath and toward the end of their lives. I don't know how I find myself at this age and stage having done that, but I feel like, and we're going to talk about faith in a little bit, but if I'm subscribing to a faith-fueled belief, I feel like that prepared me for Sammy's loss, which was obviously very

different loss on many levels. But one of the qualities that's relevant to this conversation is that it was sudden, right? It was one second he was there and the next second he wasn't. So there was no opportunity for anticipatory grief. But I remember after he died, and I think I've told that I'm not sure I've told this story before, but out loud in public. But about a week after he died, I was I don't even know what I was, but I was sitting on the beach and I heard a voice in my head that said, do you want to live or die? And I was like, what the fuck?

you know, and I just immediately, I shocked myself because I immediately knew and said, no, I want to live. And I don't just want to live for my other kids and my husband and my friends. I suddenly was attuned to what, which I believe you already are living with stage four cancer and having been through what you have, what an insane gift it is to be here, like to be able to be in this body and have this life experience is, it's a privilege that's impossible to describe. And I really felt it in that moment. And I said, yes, I want to live. And then the next thing I heard is, well, then you've got to feel it all. You can't not feel it. And I knew exactly what that meant because when my mom had died, she died of breast cancer. I fixed, managed, and controlled

myself through it. And I fixed, managed, and controlled myself through the grief. I was like, okay, I don't want to feel it. I'm just going to, I'm going to cry, but I'm going to put it in a bottle because I got to go film this Oprah episode. I was like, I got shit to do. I can't. Right. Now we do that. And then within a year I had breast cancer in the same breast that she did with none of the risk factors. I was 42 or something. So I think that's why, but the reason I mention it all now is because when I got that message, I literally went to my husband a week after our son died and God bless him. I said, listen, I'm, I gotta go. I gotta go to the Red Woods and just really open up all of my pain. And I can't do that here. And I gotta go for a week

and just wail into the earth. And he didn't even give me a second of resistance, but I am convinced That put me on the path of really, and I know you talk about somatic experiencing in the book, but of really being with, you know, you referred to, I forget what the metaphor you were just using. I'm having a brain freeze myself about when you're not feeling, you know, I sort of think about it as like it's all coming through the same pipe. And if you're blocking off one feeling, you can't feel any of them to the same degree. the pipe is clogged. But I realized that if you, that is what saved me is being willing, being willing to be brave enough and hold myself enough to go all the way into the pain. And you describe a moment when you were in, I think Nantucket or Martha's Vineyard with your dad, and it was aware that things were terminal. And he said something like, I want you guys to

come back here after I'm gone. And you excused yourself and went to the bathroom and started bawling, releasing that emotion. But then there was this really powerful scene you describe of slapping yourself in the face to like, stop it, pull yourself together. And I think that's to me, that was such a powerful image and so heart wrenching, but also a really significant metaphor about what we do to ourselves to not feel and in my opinion how dangerous that is because that's what to me causes disease dis-ease is that you were the first one in in your crazy sexy cancer book to teach me about inflammation and the role that plays in illness years ago when that book came out so I'm wondering if you can speak to that because I you wrote a lot about how you learned

how to express anger out loud and sadness, I mean, excuse me, anger and fear, anxiety, right? But I didn't see where you really let yourself feel the sadness. Yeah. Slapping yourself in the face. You know what I mean? I'm sure you did, but I wanted you to talk about it. For me, thank you for sharing all that. And first and foremost, I have to say that, you know, when I was deep in the heart of my grief and the, all of the trauma that was also coming up because my therapist has such a wonderful saying is sort of one of the three lines of the book, which is when the grief train pulls into the station, it brings all the cars. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's the old grief. It's like your body's like, Oh hell yeah. We got some grief. Let me bring up what happened to me in

five. All right. Here's what happened to me at 12. Let's all, let's all come out. I love that you say it like that because that is my theory too. I feel like because we've grown up in a grief phobic society and a messy emotions averse society that when there's a moment where you're willing to feel even just a little bit of it, it's like all the different cast of characters come rushing forward. Like you guys, she's brave. Let's go. Meanwhile, you're like, this is why I don't want to feel this. Actually, it was through the thawing of all those other emotions that were kind of keeping me from feeling my grief that I was able to finally feel it. And if it wasn't for my rage, if it wasn't for really learning how to work with my fear and anxiety, if it wasn't for

some of the other big things that usually are really working with my tendency to be hyper vigilant, controlling, and very work focused. It's very easy for me to throw myself into work. And because in my mind, the work I do is, is a good thing for the world. There's like a perfect excuse. It's a perfect storm. You have to be of service. Yeah. Or it's just like, you know, it's like, this is a good thing to be doing, spending your time doing this. Yeah. Which is true, except when it's being used to bypass what you're actually feeling. 100%. I weaponized it. against myself. And so without confronting those barriers, I actually couldn't even get to the grief. That makes a lot of sense. That really does. And you write about how, and I know this

to be true too, about how underneath the rage, the anger, once you feel it and anyone who has allowed themselves to feel, you know, if you go on my social media, you'll see lots of videos of me beaten the shit out of a pile of pillows. Just like, I need to move some anger, rage. I'm feeling so furious right now. But once you do that and you, and you exhaust and like express the rage, that's when the tears often come underneath that. It's like, uh, you were talking about John Gottman in the book, who's a really well-known therapist, really even relationship therapists from the Gottman Institute, and he describes anger like the tip of the iceberg. There's this whole universe underneath. So it makes total sense to me that once you're really comfortable moving anger,

feeling your fear fully excavating that, that underneath there in the lower sedimentary layers was the grief. Yeah. And also thanking those parts of myself, thanking the anger, thanking the fear, thanking the anxiety, thanking the workaholism, thanking the hypervigilance, because all of those emotions and behaviors were designed by me at a very early age to keep me safe and they have kept me safe and successful and contributed to my success. And so I thank all those things because I think that's the other part that happens, or at least it happened for me was first and foremost, I love that you brought up that scene in the book and there's another really big painful scene in the book for me, but I made this, I set an intention for myself.

And the first intention was for the reader. And the second intention was for me. And the intention was for the reader is to just normalize these conversations and have another outlet or another friend that you can turn to when you're struggling. And that is what this book really is. For me, it was to push the boundaries of my writing and my storytelling and to be very candid about things that I still have discomfort around, including some shame. Yeah. And so continuing to like, I read the chapter about becoming unbecoming, which is the anger chapter, because my grandmother used to say that certain emotions were unbecoming for women. That's unbecoming. Even farting was unbecoming, right? That's unbecoming.

She wouldn't like me too much. cursing, angry. No, believe me. She, she, Hey, listen, she was trying to raise a young lady who would ultimately find a proper husband. And at the time that was her biggest value. Yeah. That was how she was raised. It's like, this is how she'll be safe in the world. But anyway, I read that chapter again, recently preparing for an interview. And it's interesting. You might have had this experience before when you read your work and you see a new level of it and you see a new piece of it where you say, oh, wow, you haven't really completely done business with that shame piece yet.

As most of you know, for the past several years, I've been on a pretty intense grief journey, and it's been a path of healing. I've shared lots of that healing with you and lots of the healing resources that I found. And I am so thrilled to announce that I am doing my first ever retreat for grieving mamas. So if you or someone you love is a mama who has lost a child in any way, at any stage, at any age, I would love for you to come join me at 1440 Multiversity in the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, California for four amazing days of beautiful, uplifting community and healing. We've got David Kessler. We've got Paul Selig. We've got Catherine Woodward Thomas. We've got me. We've got body work. We've got organic food, beautiful rooms.

Go to 1440.org. Check it out. It's right there on the homepage. I really hope you can join us. So tell me about the shame. What is it that you feel shame about? Well, there's a story in the book and I felt a lot of shame after it had happened and after I experienced it. And also I had a difficult time writing about it. And I'm so lucky that I have very good editors. And when I would think, oh, that's too much. my editor, Pamela would be like, no, it's not enough. Keep going. Or, you know, when I would think I'd need to write something about like someone in the book I was struggling with. And she would say, we already know he's a dick. You don't need that. That sounds like a journal entry. She's tough. She's no nonsense. And she makes me a better writer. And I, and I really appreciate that. But there's a scene in the book where my reaction to what was going on was,

eruptive. And the emotion that I felt afterwards was shame, especially because my father witnessed it. And basically, I'm outside of a restaurant and these drunk guys try to pick me up and they climb into my parents' minivan. And I'm like, hey, this is not an Uber. I think they thought it was an Uber or whatever. And they wouldn't get out. And one of them starts putting his hands on me. And the other one is rummaging through my parents' things in their minivan. It's one of those experiences, which would make anyone by the way, angry, but the degree of rage was not really about that. Right. No, not at all. And it was off the charts and it was so, it started because, you know, he, the grabby hands comes back again. Oh, come out with us, come out with us. Let's

get some drinks. And, you know, once again, I basically come around, but this time I really shut it down. And I say, get your friend out of our car. And then he comes back and he basically says, fuck you, cunt. You're not even worth it. You're just all that's left. And it's like one of those face-off moments. Yeah. Yeah. And the rage that came out of me was not just rage for some drunk idiot. You know what I mean? It was rage for why is it my dad and not you? Yep. in there right why do you get to walk around and he doesn't and so it was like an existential rage and I'm pretty loud about how I'm feeling at this moment and my dad catches it all and I see just a look of fear on his face he was so fragile at that point if it had gotten violent or in for

whatever reason, like, and if he had gotten knocked over, it would have been really, he'd be in the emergency room. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the anger that I felt and then the shame was about two things. One was I wanted him to think that I was okay and that I would be okay after his passing and that I would take care of business just like he taught me to. And I would take care of our family and he could rely on me. And I felt like showing him this big emotion would make him doubt that. And so I felt shame around that. But the piece that I didn't really, really take in was how my reaction to them, of course, had nothing to do with them, but my reaction to them was justified. Yeah. When we think about becoming unbecoming and we think

about how especially women have been domesticated to stuff and to defer and to be demure and to not articulate our preferences. Grace-filled. Grace-filled. And sometimes grace is good. Rise above it. All of it. Sometimes you have to lose your shit. Sometimes you have to lose your shit. Not make it a joke, not smile, not change the subject, not giggle and let somebody else have the great idea, which you've had and been waiting to share at the conference table. Yeah. And that was a piece I was like, oh, wait a minute. You feel bad when you have no reason to. Quite frankly, I was thinking the same thing. I mean, I could understand feeling bad that your father was scared and freaked out and that you exposed him to that in his fragile state, but not like body wrenching shame over it. Just like, you know, I'm disappointed that he had to see that. But when I was reading it, I was like, fuck, yeah, like, yes, I liked what you know, I thought it was a totally appropriate reaction.

I mean, I wasn't there. Maybe didn't see the spittle flying out of your mouth and your eyeballs bulging out of your head if they were. But it was one of those moments where there was like a cell phone camera and like, wait, isn't that Chris Carr, the wellness activist? Oh, dear. You know what? Wellness activists too. And one of the most beautiful lines I think that you wrote in the book, I even wrote it down here to mention, and this is the perfect time, is that our messy emotions can teach us how to be free, not free from pain, but free from the fear of pain and the barrier it creates to fully living. And I thought that was so perfectly said and so true. So I want to talk about faith in a little bit, but before we do that, just relevant to this discussion and your dad, I want to talk about that conversation because I

was relating to this so deeply when I was reading the book about both my mom and my dad. I think with my grandmothers and my spirit mama, when my grandmothers died, I didn't quite get this yet and they weren't asking for it. And it was like a different kind of relationship. Both of them had dementia at that point. But with my parents and my spirit mama, Sasa, I had those conversations with them before they died. And you did such a beautiful job kind of spelling out and articulating that struggle. Because everyone around them, I thought this was so beautiful because this is what happened with your dad. Everyone around is like, oh no, don't talk that way. You're going to be fine. Even after they've gotten a terminal diagnosis, they're like miracles happen or I can't

even think about it or whatever that is. And I remember this happening for the first time because my mom was the first of those three to go when she was terminal and going into hospice. And she even said to me, she's like two things she said to me, which changed everything. One was I may not have done a lot of things right in my life, but I'm going to die well. And she was so honest. And you talk about this with your dad too, that his willingness to be with believing and all that that meant and his openheartedness around that was an invitation and a doorway for you to do the same and a model for that, right? And my mom was doing the same thing. And the other thing is she said, no one will talk to me. And I felt the same way you

described. I did not want to talk about it. Like I did not want to lose my shit. I did not want to talk about it, but I knew no one else was going to talk about it. And so I just said, okay, mom, tell me, tell me, just tell me everything you want to say. And oh my God, she had a list. Everything from like how to take care of my dad and his little idiosyncrasies and his emotional needs that I may not fully understand as his daughter, how to handle his future girlfriends and her jewelry and things like that, what she wanted to make. Like she had so many items of business, but also things she wanted, you know, to please don't let anyone ever control you, which I knew was really a testimony about her own

life. And there were so many things like that. But after we finished the first conversation, she was like, that felt so good. I think I may want to do this again. I was like, that's fine. And it wasn't as bad as I thought. It was painful, but it was actually really beautiful. And it led to so many other conversations and future conversations with my other loved

ones about what they meant, about the things that I wanted to tell them about what they meant to me in my life, but also like with my dad, things that I was forgiving him for. things that I understood now, things that he had done to hurt me and to harm me that we'd never really articulated. We tiptoed around. And so having those conversations, I feel, for me at least, so crucial to not only the anticipatory grief, but the postpartum grief once they leave because nothing hopefully was too major was left unsaid. So I wonder if you can just speak to that a little bit from your perspective and share what you learned along those lines. Yeah, you articulated it so beautifully and all the things that you shared.

I know when we have conversations like this and we're even willing to have conversations like this, I think it, I think the universe changes because so many of us, we're all going in one direction and it's a really scary conversation to have. It's like the, it doesn't seem like the talk to bring to the party, but I think it is the party terrified. And I have to say it was all of the incredible hospice nurses and one doctor who we called Dr. Porn that started to help as well as my therapist. And I say this because we hadn't been talking about it, but of course we all know, because at this point now we've only moved, we've moved into hospice and hospice was at home, right? I thought hospice was a place that you sent people to sort of archive them on their way out.

I had no clue. Honestly, I live with stage four cancer and I knew very little about death. I didn't either until I went through that with, and boy, I have yet, I've met many hospice nurses now. And are they not freaking angels? Because they are not ushering that person through their final days, weeks, months even, but they are ushering the family, right? I mean, they're guiding you, advising you, telling you what to do, what it means. And so that was the beginning for me because of course we knew what was happening then then it was really happening and then you know it would be about a month of radical changes and then his passing and from day one they were they walked into our living room sat down and just spoke to him directly there was no

like let's speak to the family outside of the room let's speak directly to the person this is happening to do you know you're dying do you know that there's nothing left to be done are you aware of what's happening. Right. And so it was the pandemic. So we had masks on and I thought this is the greatest thing in the world because this is so painful and so bright. I can bring the mask all the way up over my eyes, you know, or like my eye, I'll bring it up here and it'll just capture the tears and nobody will see. Because I had never heard anybody speak directly like that. And then, so there was a few days of those conversations and they were really scary and very sacred. And it felt like I left my body every time they happened. And then the doctor walks in for the first time and my mother, bless her caretaker, through and through was like, hey, can you be with dad for the afternoon? I just want to take a shower, blow dry my hair and go to the grocery. That was as if she was

going to Neiman Marcus with a gift certificate from Oprah and a Rolls Royce was going to take her to the spa. So I'm like, absolutely. But the doctor comes in and he makes his first house call and he starts to ask my dad about faith. And do you want somebody here? Do you want a priest? do you want? What would you like? He's like, well, I kind of go my own way with all that doctor. I don't, I don't really feel like I need that kind of support. And so he's going through everything again, the same, do you know what's happening? You know, you're dying. And then he says, listen, I just want to give you some advice. Do you have any porn? And he was like, he's clearly been through this already. He goes, if you have porn, this would be a good time for

you to get rid of it because you don't have a lot more time. And right now you can still kind of get around with your walker. You don't want to leave your people with that. Yeah. You don't want them to find that after you're gone. That's such a random thing. And we both burst into laughter, my dad and I, and he goes like, nah, that's not going to be a problem. But from then on out, we called him Dr. Porn. And so sweetest person, my point is to share some of this is that they had opened the door for me. And then I, I spoke to my therapist and I said, I want to have this conversation because I know it's something that he wants to have, but I'm so afraid of how I'm going to react. And then I'll make him feel bad and I won't do it right. And all those types

of things, I'll, I'll be a mess and all of this. And she said, why don't you start by the way, sorry, let me just say this, which is why so many people avoid the conversation, not just because they don't want to face it. And even people avoid conversations with you about your own grief afterwards, which we'll get to, because they don't want to say the wrong thing, right? They don't want to make it worse. All right. So go ahead. What'd she tell you to say? She said, why don't you start by talking about talking about it? It's almost like the pre-show warmup. Don't go straight into it, but talk to him about talking about it. And so I took her advice and I said, dad, I'd like to talk to you about talking about dying. Is this something you'd like to do?

and he was incredible he said oh yes please because it's very lonely yeah the world is going on people are sometimes people would be over and they would speak quickly and be in fast conversation because that's we're still in the land of able to keep up with that and we're deep in the land of the living but he can't keep up and he can't his voice is so quiet that he tries to communicate and be a part of it, but he's got a delay and his voice is soft. So people are stepping all over him. And then I watched him just kind of give up and be like, I guess I'm already gone. And so we started about talking about talking about it. He said, yes, please. Cause it's so lonely. And I said, here are the things that I think will happen. I'm going to

need a lot of tissues. I'll probably start crying. I may say the wrong thing, but I am so willing to show up if that would be a value. And so it was a full yes. And then we actually started the real conversations. Not that day. Yeah. I needed a beat, but not long after that. And you don't go into and you don't need to hear either. You don't go into tremendous detail about what took place during those conversations. But what was the result of them in your mind and heart? Well, Well, the result of them was really a deeper connection with my dad. And I think a deeper connection with myself and also feeling a sense of, I think it's the most courageous thing I've ever done. And it was like, okay, this is what love looks like. It was a lesson in loving. And

the thing is, is that at death, I think many of our people really want to tell us things as you so beautifully shared. And also there's a lot of unfinished business that happens with the process of dying, even thinking about your stuff. And I was in conversation with somebody the other day who said, my father has been wanting to talk about who gets the stuff. And I keep saying, oh no, no, no, let's not talk about that. We don't need to worry about that. Let's talk about something more positive. And what you don't realize is sure. Okay. Maybe it's a good intention gone south, quite honestly. Yeah, right. Because you're trying to take care of them. But what would be taking care of them is giving them the peace of being able to articulate where their shit goes.

Yeah, exactly. And the peace of saying I am at a different stage in life and you are willing to see and acknowledge it. And this is happening and you are not you are coming with me. I don't have to do this alone. And I think that's so powerful, so unbelievably important. And if people there's a lot they'll take from this episode. But if you take nothing else, have those conversations. You will never I feel like if you especially with the pre conversation that you talk about, I don't think you can go wrong as long as you keep your heart open. And another thing you write about, which I have said to every single one of my people that have gone and have posthumously said to Sammy is something that you describe your mom saying in his final hours. And no one told me to

say this, but I could feel, especially with my mom and my dad and Sasa, I could feel them having trouble letting go. And I knew my mom was worried about my dad. I knew my dad was worried about my sister. And I knew my Sasa was worried about her daughter and what it would mean for each of these people not to, not that they weren't worried about the rest of us, but like those, I just knew. And so with each of them, I spent a lot of time, especially once it was clear that they were really, really going and like the hearing was all that was left. I said it while they were still compus mentis too, but I made sure to repeat. And you described so beautifully, your mother saying a version of this to your dad in his final moments. It's like,

you don't have to worry. It's okay to go. We're going to be okay. Dad's going to be okay. Your other daughter's going to be okay. And I even sang to Sasa's daughter, coaching her and getting her to the point where she could understand that her mom was really going and that she was struggling to let go until her daughter told her that she would be okay, if and when she was ready to do that. And sure enough, when she did, that is when she finally let go because they need to they need to feel and that's why you were so upset about your dad seeing you fly into a rage right like you wanted him to have that comfort of knowing that the people they love are going to be okay without them which i think is one of the hardest things one of the hardest reasons to leave

you know why it's so hard to i can't speak i think that's why it's so hard to leave because you're so about that. A hundred percent. And I will say that my mom was the ultimate spiritual life coach because not only was she telling him that, but she was also saying, I'm so proud of you. You're doing this so well. Meaning like the process of dying. You're doing this so well. I'm so proud of you. And I'm looking at her like, who is this woman? is this incredibly powerful like I knew my mother was powerful but I was like oh it's like that it's like that yeah oh my gosh it's an amazing and profound experience on so many levels and one of them is because you see your parents

yes still as your parents but also as the beings of light they are and this power comes out of them both when they're leaving and also in their caretaking that is really astounding. So I want to talk about, and we're kind of leading into it with, with the goodbye, but I always kind of talk about grief as a portal. It's like a doorway or a portal to so many things, to a new version of yourself, to a new kind of healing, to sometimes even a new purpose or an added purpose in your life. But for many, many, many of us, and I know this has been a journey you've been on too, at least you referred to it. It's through those toughest times and especially through tremendous loss that many of us kind of finally start developing faith and a connection to whatever

that is. I was not raised with any understanding of faith or a higher power. I was a secular Jewish family. So we went to temple because we were supposed to twice a year, but there was very few discussions of God or higher power or a force with me or anything like that. So it's really been in my adult years, but I haven't ever had, until Sammy died, actually, I didn't really know and couldn't figure out how to have that two-way relationship, much less a relationship with faith. And I thought it was so, it really touched me what you shared your therapist said to you, which is when you couldn't trust or have faith in your caretakers as a kid, which I couldn't either for probably different reasons. When you can't have trust in your caretakers as a child, it's

really hard to trust the biggest caretaker, spirit, God, Jesus, Allah, whatever your name for that is. How can you trust that if you never could even trust your parents to take care of you and to have to really show up for you in the ways that you needed. So I'm wondering, and also you write about, so connected to faith. So I want to ask you about faith, but then also a huge piece of what I try to teach about, especially to other parents who have lost children, is that energy, we know this through quantum physics, like it's energy never die. It cannot be destroyed or even create it.

It just changes form. So when this gorgeous vessel that we're walking around in the world has to go from illness or accident or death or whatever, we change form, but that energy lives on and you can tap in and tune in and stay connected to that energy. And I thought that part of the book was so beautiful as well. The signs your father has given and how you have had, and I'm going to paraphrase it because I didn't write it down, but that you had to ask your eyes to see the signs. And I think that's 90% of it is being willing to ask for and being willing to see, to attune your awareness to see the signs. You know, in loss, it's so common to see absence. The person isn't here. The experience is gone. The miscarriage, the hopes that we had for that future, the job, the death, the divorce, we see the absence of it.

The chair she used to sit in, the clothes that hang on the hanger still, and the training my eyes to see presence is the choice that I consciously started to make. And that's what I'm still playing with, consciously choosing to see the presence of the person, the love, as you so beautifully said, the energy transformed. Yeah. And writing this book is part of that because he's alive in the pages. He's alive in this interview. Like I get to still be in that space and I get to share some of his very deep wisdom and very funny sayings and life advice. It's so rich and will guide me through all of my days.

And faith for me, like it's one sentence in the book and that one sentence could be a whole book. And of course you are the one that picked it up. of course it's you. But, you know, coming from my experience of being my biological father left when I was conceived and I met Ken, who is my chosen father when I was nine. And I was a little hardened nine-year-old who was like, yo, it's the three of us, the three women in this house and I'm the talk dog. And who the hell are you? Get out of here. Yeah. Get out of here. And he just, no matter what I did, he refused not to love me. And so he played a huge role in

the healing of the paternal wound, but it's a wound that it's there and I'll continue to have to work with for the rest of my life, right? So my biological father is also part of this book because he comes into my life and then he leaves again and then he dies. And he left again when I wrote my first book. There was something I wrote in the book that he didn't like. And so that was it. I never spoke to him again. And so I think for me, the original wound is that paternal wound, but it's the wound of abandonment of I'm not worthy. I can't trust. I have to be hypervigilant. Everybody leaves. If I don't do it right, they're going to go like all this stuff. And what I didn't realize, we talk about the three lines of the emotions, that ancient trauma, the grief train

pulls into the station, I was tapping into this trauma of abandonment thinking, dad's leaving me. He's not leaving you. He's, he's dying. Yeah. He would, if he could help it, he wouldn't. Right. But our conscious mind and our body doesn't know that. Oh. And so starting to play with that question of faith, you know, I have a lot, I have a lot of humor in this book. And one of the things I write is like, you know, I was an atheist mostly on Sundays. And so I went through my deep atheism phase and then I went through my agnostic phase and I'm with Hay House. I'm one with the top spiritual publisher in the world. And I am a spiritual faith-based misfit. You know, I was raised with a very feral, fluid connection to faith. But through this experience, I do choose

to stay connected to that energy and that notion that love specifically never dies. Yeah. It transforms and it's always there. And so now I have these beautiful conversations and I don't know if they are really happening and I don't care because honestly, what I'm feeling is comfort and connection.

And I think that's, if faith is anything, it's that. Yeah, well, faith is that believing in that which you can't prove or see. That's the very nature of faith. And you could, you know, if someone I don't I think about Anita Marjani, who I know you speak about as well or write about as well in the book. But I remember seeing her speak once and she was describing what happened to her when she died and then came back and how a lot of people tell her she's crazy or that she imagined it and this is all in her head. And she said, look, if if this is crazy, I am very happy to be crazy. Yeah. And I never forgot that because it's true. Like you can feel it. And once you accept that, then you start to feel it even more. Like I remember I was always feeling Sammy. I still do over my right shoulder. For some reason, Sasa is always in my left ear and Sammy's over, over my right shoulder. And I never told anyone that. And then this Lee Harris, I don't know if you know him, he's a channel and a psychic and whatever. And I was talking to him once and he

starts talking about Sam and he goes, yeah, he's right there over your left shoulder. I was like, oh yes, he is as a matter of fact. So don't doubt those things. There's, I get that we're conditioned to doubt, but to me, it's as real as the image of you in front of me, as we do this interview. It's very real. And as you accept it and cultivate it, I feel like it gets with everything else, just like our intuition, as you accept and listen to your intuition, it gets louder and clearer to you over time. I feel like it's the same thing with the connection that the more that I accept the signs and see the signs and celebrate the signs and acknowledge the signs, the more signs I get, the more communications I get. Right. I'm a hundred percent with you and,

and very excited about this chapter of my connection and deepening my understanding of that. And honestly, I'm just in a place right now where I would be delighted. I think that the faith that I've created of my own knowing is being okay with what is, accepting the life that I have, cancer and all, the losses that I've experienced,

the beauty that is still available to me, the opportunity that I have to live fully. and once I go, if there's more, how exciting and delightful. If there isn't, that's okay too. All of it's okay. What a beautiful place to end. Thank you so much, Chris, for your time, for the book, for all you do in the world, all you are.

We're so grateful. Thank you, Laura. I went to the doctor Said I'm crazy for your love Wrote me a prescription But there's no cure for a cry