Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Is It Still Love If Touch Feels Like a Risk?

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Love after trauma isn’t just about passion—it’s about patience. The quiet moments between kisses, the hesitation in a held hand, the unspoken fear that lingers in intimacy… These are the places where love is tested—and where it can be rebuilt. In this Language of Love Session, we return to Brian and Stacey’s raw, unfolding story. If you’ve been with us, you know: this isn’t just about sex. It’s about two hearts trying to find safety in each other—while wrestling with the ghosts of their pasts. (If you’re new here, make sure to listen to my past sessions with Brian and Stacy to learn about the heartache, the fights, the small victories that brought them here.) So what happens when healing almost feels within reach? When the arguments soften, the warmth returns… and then—out of nowhere—the old pain rushes back in? Here’s What You’ll Take Away: “I want to, but I can’t”—why this conflict is more common than we admit (and how to move through it) How childhood wounds whisper in adult intimacy—and how to quiet them When even loving touch feels like pressure—and how to rewrite that story Why watching porn together became a bridge, not a wall The moment a simple kiss became the bravest act of all How couples accidentally retraumatize each other—and how to stop The shift that helped Stacey reclaim her body—and her voice Why Brian is learning that patience isn’t passive—it’s love in action Want to feel safe in your own skin—and in your partner’s arms? Start with my free quiz and then delve into 7 Days to Better Sex. If you're navigating deeper wounds, explore EMDR therapy or dive into the Drama Triangle—because real love shouldn’t reopen old scars. Your story isn’t over. In fact, the most healing chapters may be just ahead. Questions or thoughts? I’d love to hear from you: [e-mail] And if this episode moved you, share it. Healing is contagious when we do it together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Hi, guys. Hi. So how has it been going since our last conversation? How have the two of you

been doing? Did we talk to you after March break or before March break? I don't think That's what you mean, since you're like spring break? Yeah. I think you were talking about maybe going away somewhere. And I think the last conflict, you know, we kind of worked through, there was some frustration around saving up funds and getting things done in time so that you could go away and being aligned with that purpose together. So it sounds like you did get away.

Okay. So do you have anything to tell me about that? What? Go ahead. Go ahead with what? What do you have to say? What did I have to say? How are we doing?

We went away. Okay. Okay. Brian, do you have, I mean, I want to hear from both of you, but what do you have to report? Hasn't been as many bad arguments, I would say. I'm trying to exercise a little better pausing patience, I think. I would like to ask Stacey to see if it's true or not, but I'm trying to make more of an effort for that. I believe there's some good connection points along the way.

we went to two different small trips so we went to florida for spring break we drove and came back kids came with us a couple different families came with us it was fun we had a good time fun and then we went to um ohio for a volleyball tournament again there's some connection there too as well and we played volleyball together over this weekend more connection too as well wasn't like personal one-on-one intimate connection in terms of just me and stacy it was still time spent together and with like-minded kind of ideas and goals and friends and different things that we like to do together so i think there was a lot of we do hang regardless of anything we do spend a lot of time together we do like a lot a lot which is good like i you know my best friend so i want

to spend time with my best friend but i also want to spend time with my lover not my just teammate or roommate so she's a good teammate she's a great teammate one of the best teammates and a really good roommate too as well and obviously i love her like crazy so but anyhow that's that's my thing okay what would you add to that or shift change in that stacy uh i will say that yes i feel that over the course of the month of march there were less arguments i mean there were arguments but nothing crazy and I found that the repair was much more faster and much more better so that was actually really really good because it's almost like we were both doing the homework it wasn't just one person doing homework there was two people doing homework with siding with one person

we came up to an agreement that was fair for all even though if it wasn't one-sided or yeah we came up with the win-win yes yes yes what I would like to bring up is something that Brian didn't share and I want clarification because I have a feeling there's a reason you say not to do something so over March break he looks so confused I just have to camera him back he usually is confused what did they do what did they do all right so over march break over march break he kind of guilted me oh no the shower yes okay we had sex okay and he just said oh we're on vacation it's fine dr laura won't mind and i'm like but that's an agreement we made we're not supposed to for a reason and he's like yeah but she'd understand it's it's spring break and we're by ourselves and

and then so I went along with it but I said that's it like you we can't do this and he said okay okay just this one time okay fine and then he's like okay well you're going to be getting your period so you know just this one time okay and then when we went on the second trip which was at the end of March, he tried to do the same thing. And I said, no, because now you're putting me in a really bad position. I want to honor what we said we were going to do, but I also want to honor your needs, but I also want to honor our relationship, but I'm stuck in the middle. And I feel like you're not being fair to me. Like you're putting me in this position where now I have to choose or that i'm i forget the word i used but then you understood you said i get it it's not

fair to you that is kind of unkind of me and what did you say you said you used that word and i was like yes you got it you actually heard me remember i forget but anyways he said he got it and he said you're right we shouldn't do anything and i said yeah if you want to then maybe you should clarify what we should and shouldn't be doing or why aren't we doing it or but what do you I mean let me ask you this and we'll we'll drill down into what happened in the dynamics in a second but did you want to have sex either of those times yes and no because while I liked the connection that wasn't based on what I was doing it was just based on going with the flow and we're just enjoying each other's company i don't know i i felt like if i included that then i think brian wouldn't

be putting in so much effort like we wouldn't have that much connection why do you think that what do you mean tell me more about that that's an important little tidbit you just dropped there a little turd in the punch bowl you just kind of plopped in there so i don't know i feel maybe it's well not maybe I mean a lot of it has to do obviously with my past and who knows maybe it's because I'm always thinking that I add value only when I'm doing something actually yeah maybe so your story it sounds like from what you just said kind of off the cuff what is that if that Brian is you know you've had this great month there have been less arguments you felt like you both were you know getting with the program doing the homework and

your communication and in your effort and investing and all of that and you kind of have this story or this doubt this fear perhaps that all of this is so that he can get laid and that if you have sex with him he won't have the incentive to be attentive communication wise and investing in a relationship. Would you agree with that? Is that a correct? Yes. Okay. So, all right. So you can see how that's a double bind you're putting yourself and him into, right? For several reasons. One, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you referred to your past trauma, is that one of the things we need to unravel here for you, and we're going to need Brian's investment in this is mischaracterization of what sex is based on what it was in the trauma

as transaction. Right. So what you're basically doing in your case at what, you know, with the childhood trauma, it wasn't like you were saying, okay, I'll let you do this and you'll give me candy in return. Although lots of abuse victims do have that. And there are still abuse victims. They're being manipulated and groomed that way. But it's also sort of in your case, I think it's more that any kind of you couldn't trust connection, friendliness, compassion, gentle, innocent affection that most kids would be able to enjoy from their adults around them. In your case, those things very quickly and typically turned into unwanted sexual contact. Yes. Right. So it was an entry point.

Yes. And Brian, I have to say, has been very good with the fact of he will reach out and give me a hug or a kiss or lean in closer and say, this doesn't have to go anywhere. Like, this is not going to go anywhere. This is just good. So do you see how you're. I do. Is that really your experience with him? Now, it may be true in reverse. We do see almost universally across heterosexual relationships that when the female partner is not as available sexually, the male partner sometimes, which we've been working on and reversing sometimes unintentionally, not because he's making a transaction. oh, you aren't being sexual with me, so I'm not going to be nice to you. But he just doesn't have

that feeling of connection that inspires him to be reaching out that way. Right. So we've been kind of unwinding that by setting it up for Brian and you both to be really investing in quality time, non-sexual physical affection, connection, communication without any transactions. Right. But you can see how much you're going to keep yourself stuck if your story is that if you actually, first of all, if you allow in pleasure, like if you let your guard down to allow in pleasure, much less engage in pleasure together, that you will be sacrificing his investment and all the other stuff that you've been seeing an improvement in. But then I'm conflicted because you said not to do it. Well, the reason I said not to, let's talk about that, too, because that's a separate issue. OK, we're just talking because that I was that's where I was going to go. But then you dropped the turban clutch fall and I had to fur that up a little bit.

But because that's important. But and we'll put a pin in that for a minute with regard to the reason I said not to have sex. And I still feel that way is because first we said, let's take sex off the table so that we could take the pressure off and take the expectation out and give you room to be able to be affectionate, to not have this thing between you and this question between you. And then what you experienced right after that was, oh, occasionally I kind of want to have sex like a Stacey this is would be like, all right, I know we weren't going to and I didn't want to, but now I'm finding that I kind of want to. Right. But then it was sporadic and that was a little confusing for both of you because then you fell into a pattern where

sometimes it wasn't really wanted and he would be putting, then it opened the door for expectations of sex. Right. Because what if you want it? I felt that. Yeah. Do you understand what I'm saying? No. Can you repeat that? Okay. So the homework was don't have sex. You have quote unquote cheated, right? Um, on the whole forest and you had sex. Why? Because you Stacy wanted to, you said, look, when the pressure was off and we had felt this real connection, I wanted to, and I was like, okay, well, the whole reason I took it out was partly to take the pressure off, but partly to protect your traumatized parts. So if you're feeling in your power and you want to have sex in that moment let's try that right the only hiccup is

didn't work out well because brian on a spring break she was looking really fine looking really hot and beautiful we had a nice awesome huge massive shower in a hotel and i was like damn perfect timing kids are kids not there they're off to this other person's and i said and stacy was kind of like nope that's transactional and you know we ended up doing as she was nice enough to still do it but obviously which is that which i don't like because under normal circumstances i wouldn't mind it i think in a in a healthy relationship where you aren't acting from a place of trauma sometimes you do your partner a solid when you'd rather be watching for your chin and you do it and you enjoy it and it's fine and you think i

should do it more often. Okay. That's not what was happening here. Let's just back up beyond before spring break. The reason we went back to no sex is because what was happening was that once that door opened where Stacey could decide that she wanted to have sex. Now the 800 pound gorilla was back in the room with you. Now the potential was there. So the door was open. And then there were several circumstances where, Stacey, you felt pressured like you just did on spring break and you gave in and you disassociated. And we never want you to have sex disassociated again. Okay. And I, well, I wasn't disassociated at that time because I actually said yes. But I also want to add that sometimes Brian will say, well, and that's partly also one of the reasons why I did,

because brian would say is it only on your terms because every time that we've had is yes it is only on your terms for now right i know so it's kind of nice that it's on my terms because that allows me to say yes or no and it doesn't matter whether i say yes or no you take your power back right and that allows me the chance to be like oh i don't have to it'd be nice if i did but i don't have to and I'll still be in this relationship yeah but when that is said then I'm kind of feeling like well yeah actually it is on my terms and that isn't fair so then I have to oblige because it's not fair but at the same time I'm like well I but it's something that you both agreed to now we didn't have a chance if we'd had a chance to talk you know before you went on

vacation, I would have probably seen that coming because often when you're on vacation alone together, there are going to be opportunities where you're in a beautiful bathtub or a beautiful setting, or it's really romantic. And we would have checked in. Are we keeping the rules going? Are there other rules we want to set up? And that's a hint to you guys, right? Think about that. And here's what happened, right? What you're describing to me is that, and I'm not saying any of this is conscious, but I'm going to play it out in the rawest, harshest terms. You're on a vacation. You look hot. You're connected. You're having fun together. Brian, you're horny and all this is going on. And so you start, not consciously, I'm not saying you're rubbing your

hands together and making a plan to do this, but you unconsciously start manipulating. You go back to those well is it really fair why is it on your terms saying the things that are going to make her feel bad and then you stacy go back to your unconscious dysfunctional pattern of giving up your boundary out of guilt which is never you know that's the opposite of a boundary and basically giving your sovereignty away now if you had been horny too yeah really been wanting to do it I would feel differently. Right. But what you're saying to me, and maybe you did really enjoy it. I hope you did. Or I'm going to ask you in a second if you did or if you disassociated, but I didn't. I didn't. Okay. And did you enjoy it? No. why not why not because that doesn't do anything for me the way we do it in the shower isn't the way you like it yeah it's not doing anything for me well did you was there something you could

have done that wouldn't do it for you maybe not in the shower okay did you actively dislike it or were you neutral to it oh no I was neutral okay like I wasn't looking to get pleasured or okay no so you were neutral just for him didn't feel yucky to you in any way oh no no okay all right good all right so that's important okay but and you were in your body which is great yeah you didn't go anywhere yeah okay so you made a decision to give in to the pressure even though you didn't really want to do it right and then did it and then how did you feel after I felt fine because I actually did it on his terms so I kind of felt okay so now I don't need to hear that because now I did it for you it might not have been the way you wanted it to be but I did it for you now and

what does it mean that you did it for him what what transaction does that give you what coins in the bank does that give you that i care and that i love him and that i'm trying to do something to make him happy it has nothing to do with me and so you did an act of of care and attempt you felt good that you had done something that made him feel good okay okay yeah and i think what was different about the last little trip we did was even though i wanted to i didn't but i let him know like it was a really good conversation there was no and what was this this was uh end of march okay so this is a different not in the shower or the same time as the show okay a different time different time the second trip and what happened on the second trip like we were by ourselves

majority of the time so of course the idea is gonna prop up but this time i was i said no i don't think we should because we were told no and we shouldn't and no wait hold on I'm not done and I explained where I was coming from I explained for him to understand what it is that I'm looking for and where I'm coming from and it has nothing to do with him personally it has to do with how it makes me feel inside and I don't want to be doing something out of force out of guilt out of anything and then i suggested something else what did you suggest i suggested pleasing oneself okay i had him in the same room so i'm like well maybe that should be okay to do so so did you do that yes each of you to yourself in the same room or each of you okay and how was that great

Oh, that's a good thing to know. Yeah, I felt great. He felt great, I think. How was it for you? It wasn't 100% because it wasn't me, but I thought it was great. Was there anything pleasurable? I know it wasn't the same as her hands on you or being physical. But my hands were there a few times.

Yeah, they were for a couple seconds. Yeah, a couple seconds. We're easing on him. It was a couple seconds, yeah. Yeah. so she's feeling good about that your facial expression is different did you i mean obviously it wasn't everything you wanted but was it sounds like she was trying to come up with a happy medium that did feel in her power well she came she came to the table of uh doing something that

she felt was comfortable so as long as she was comfortable i felt okay with that yeah Was there anything nice about it or was it disappointing or what was it at any? Did it feel like an offering to you or or progress or did it feel not like that? um i don't know you know the only time for stacy at this moment to really what it seems like for her to ever have pleasure is maybe by watching you know pornography or something so i feel like you know it doesn't matter what i do like that's the only thing that she can do to be okay and for me you know just i look at it going i understand in terms of a safety thing where that's coming from i i do get it but you know maybe that's life from now on maybe that's the only thing that yeah just a little bit sad that if that's life for the future if that's the

only way well why are you making up this story that that's life for the future because i haven't seen that's been a long time since she's been pleasure just from me solely myself and no additional help you mean from porn yeah or from okay and to be honest that's only been the very recent because before i wouldn't even indulge in that what trend maybe since i don't know past couple months i would say i would think no it's been like years i can't remember a time that you made love with me were no no sex without that nope i know exactly what i do and don't do and i'm letting you know i was so against that but over the past couple months i'm hearing things and i'm thinking it's okay it's normal so i'm it's almost like whenever i try and allow myself

to do the things that i used to think was wrong it comes back up as that's still wrong you know because then he's upset about it because life will be a certain way or whatever he just said so yeah well that doesn't mean that the porn is wrong but what i see him i don't think it's wrong it's not wrong but i'm just what i'm saying is for the past whatever you think it was 11 months 12 months six months whatever you think the time was it just seems like since then since that time there's this it almost seems like i feel like personally myself that i do feel like the only way you can be having pleasure now is fine from before because you never did that and you've allow yourself to accept and say that's okay which i'm i admire and not not just admire but i'm like

yeah okay it is okay it's a normal thing i feel like now maybe that's the only thing that might get you to be satisfied or turned on for the future and hopefully not but like you know i'm glad that you're accepting of it i disagree i don't think you're content with that you just made a comment it's almost like you're you feel like it's you're doomed no well well that's what It sounds like to me. To be honest, after our relationship, I feel like I'm doomed for the longest time. It's been weird. Like, I don't get any physical touch.

I don't get any, you know, for a couple seconds. But, like, I do honestly feel like I'm doomed. Like, I want to work through this. I want to, you know, do as much possible patience as what I can. But, again, I feel like a jerk, too, because here we are trying to help ourselves out in our relationship. Well, you're allowed to hold both, right? You're human and you're a man with a healthy libido who loves and is attracted to his wife. So I think it's fine to feel some sadness and even some fear, like, is this the way

it's always going to be? I'm afraid, you know, I think it's important though to, and this is true for all of us, to really be careful about falling into those stories, right? Of helplessness and hopelessness. because right now you can say right now I feel scared because it's been so long since we were intimate in a way where we both felt fully in it and there was pleasure and I felt like I could pleasure you and there is a part of me that is scared like will that ever come again but I'm you know not gonna it's all arguable right like you are married to a woman who has severe chronic

multiple multiple multiple sexual traumas okay so we agreed a while ago and you agreed and i want to check in with you that you still feel this way that you didn't want to have sex with her if you were contributing to her trauma right if it would be contributing to her trauma and yeah and or you want a sexual partner who is going to like be in her body and be present and be wanting to be there, right? Yeah, 100%. So it does require a lot of patience. And with that patience,

there is going to be natural frustration and fear. And you guys are in a kind of messed up situation because I like have this time with you that I give you to help once a month, maybe, when like you should be taught, No, you don't have to thank me, but I'm just saying that's not nearly enough. Right. Like we're kind of holding things together now with duct tape and trying to move you forward. But it's not like going to therapy once a week and doing the trauma work and like really that was something. And I know you're still working on that and waiting on that with the national health care and all of that stuff, you know, where you are. But but that's part of the reason this is taking so damn long, too. Right. Because we're trying to move you forward. What I think is so great is that it sounds like for the first month since we've started working together, you've actually had a month where it feels like you're beyond the sex stuff. that's a separate but connected thing in all other ways you haven't said i mean every single

time we have met before now you guys are pissed at each other you feel disconnected with each other you've been having arguments with each other right like yeah i mean there's still arguments but of course but i mean big arguments and lack of trust and lack of connection right happened recently has been it's been better recently yeah it's been better recently so and you've been implementing some of the things we've been talking about right and and naturally as that stress isn't there then the next thing starts to occur oh okay well maybe the door is open to this and then when it's not open then it feels scary and rejecting right and i understand that i am happy to be the boundary Right.

You know, Dr. Bourbon says we can't do this. So we're not doing it's good. No, no, it's good. We need that. We need that. Honestly, we do need that because I get in my ways. And then, you know, even Stacey gets in our ways to here and there.

But it's good to know that because we're trying to work through something greater. And what I love and I do think it's unfortunate that I mean, I get that that opened the door for one of your fears, Brian, but I wanna invite you, three months ago, I can't imagine Stacey saying to you, we're not gonna have sex. We said we weren't gonna do that. It's important to me.

I don't want to. It's important to me to hold this boundary. And I want to be physically intimate with you in a way that feels safe to me, right? Right? Like if I could design it, I would want you to be doing cartwheels about that. because that is a step forward. Yes, she's looking at porn and maybe that triggered it. Yes,

you aren't getting a lot of stimulation directly from her, but there is the beginning of a sexual connection on her terms and in a way that feels empowering to her where she is enthusiastic and fully present. Okay. That is one-on-one for setting the stage for eventually having sex together where she is fully in, wants to do it, and fully present and feels in her power, right? Yeah, right. Step toward that and a positive set. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love, and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is, how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term

monogamous relationship well if you want to take your love life your sex life to the next level whether you're in a relationship or not check out my free course on quantum sex it's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level capable of full body orgasms how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner Just go to Dr. Laura Berman dot com and you'll find it right there on the home page. The quantum sex free course. Check it out. Let me know what you think.

And the other reason why I'll say it's also progress because before I was so against it and I would watch it by myself. and i didn't like that feeling either you would you didn't tell me that no no i mean you were there but it would be just me watching it no you and me oh yeah but now it's actually him and i watching it which is what he would complain about before yeah and so that's but i feel like nobody ever sees this like i need a reminder i see that i'm climbing these mountains and i'm looking at myself like you go girl like look at this i'm telling yeah and then this guy's like i'm doomed and my life is over and i'm like you know what i have to recognize that more right

and also in the bedroom too like your breasts as well like there's oh yeah she on the way to like more me touching that that was always off the table before so yeah that was a trigger area for me you've let him touch them yeah it was a huge trigger uh thing for me if you touched me there i would hit you and now now i'm i asked for it you asked for it and did you like it yeah i mean it doesn't happen all the time but i'm just saying like i actually honored what i felt that's amazing i did that twice yeah there's two different times it was actually she pointed out one time the other time i pointed out the first time she pointed out and i was like you're right i didn't really like kind of not congratulate like oh hey good job but for me

that was a congratulations and i don't hear the fact you can maybe not in a moment but after the fact it was it's good to congratulate and be like damn i'm really proud to wreck it's important to recognize both those things are big stuff for us watching together i took that for granted actually um us watching together when we self-pleasured each other i took that for granted and also for the um her breast touching too as well so that was an important step forward too so there are different strides and if she feels safe and feels connected and if she ever wants it i'm not going to stop her that'll be up to her but obviously i don't want to be approaching the subject and have her say but dr laura said so i'm not that's what's been happening because you

So so it's also like there's two ways to go about it. Right. This is why checking in with each other, if you could like what you did the second time, I think is really ideally the model like, all right, we're by ourselves. Isn't so nice. Are you know, and we can talk about whether we're going to keep this rule going or not. But let's say we do. Right. Then you can say, are we going to continue the rule? I would love to be intimate with you. We've had such a great day. You look so beautiful. I just want to check in with you. It's fine if not. Right. And then Stacey can say, Stacey can say, you know what I, now this part is on you, Stacey, right? Because the pattern has been, he puts a little pressure or guilt on you, and then you find a solution and you found a empowered solution. So I'm happy with that, but I don't want that. I don't want to set up this model where the only way that you're reinforcing this idea of kind of being victimized or pressured because you're setting up a dynamic where because you don't initiate anything, he then, the only way you're going to consent or talk about it or offer it is if he is, quote unquote, making you feel

guilty, right? And no one technically can make you feel guilty about yourself, but he is putting that pressure on you. So you're setting him up to not accept the boundary, push the boundary, which is reminiscent of your traumas, right? And set up a weird little dynamic there. But if you are never initiating it yourself, right? So let me ask you, were there any times during these weeks together where it did occur to you when you were traveling or when you were way by yourselves, like, oh, you know, it would be kind of nice. I will say that before I did that, like before you were, you were, you told us, you know, it's a no, it's, we can't be doing this anymore. I think you did that, I think maybe February or March, I think, or maybe January.

I can't remember. But before then, I would say things and I would initiate. And that was great at first but then again that was put in my face as though well it's only on your terms and how why do you get to have the control over it so I feel like there's something going on there where if I'm in charge of it or if I have a say then it's a problem for him it I and I don't think it has anything to do with me doing that I think it goes back to his past but I don't like that because it's either one of us initiating. So do I always say it's you're controlling it or you have the upper hand?

Well, in the end, you are controlling it. I am putting the control in your hands, period. Okay, that is prescribed. Whether he initiates it or whether you initiate it, you are for the foreseeable future, not forever, but for the time being, you are in control of whether or not you do it and what you do period okay and that is not because you deserve more power than brian has

it is because we want you not to be re-traumatized when you have sex we want you to be in your body and we want you to enjoy it and so does brian okay not guilted not persuaded not not uh i don't want to feel like that right i want to feel what i feel inside and actually honor what i feel that's what I wanted to do and so what I would like is some sort of safe word where what Brian because what happens I think is that and I saw it just happen there he went into some victim mode where he sort of lost himself rather than like seeing the progress right and we all doing that My husband would tell you I'm the womp womp in our relationship and the catastrophizer. So that's just the dynamic, right?

But a safe word for when you are feeling him starting to unconsciously guilt, manipulate, pressure, that kind of thing, right? So maybe it's just pressure, right? Or maybe it's cantaloupe. I don't know. But something. Vermin. maybe what Berman Berman yeah whatever it is right but the question is do you think

so what you said to me earlier is that once I and the reason I took sex off the table was because it was starting now that the door was open to it it was starting to be something you were being pressured around again yeah so I said okay let's just stop it again yeah okay yeah and what you just said to me I think is that once that door closed it kind of you stopped being open to it at all or did you sometimes think about it and just shut it down because it wasn't on the table no so I would think about it but I would suggest alternatives that's what I would suggest like so I kind of well like self-pleasuring you know yeah but that was in response to him putting the pressure on were there any times where you know as I'm saying I would say suggest that for

myself as well right but were there any times where he was not putting the pressure on or not the instigator where had the door been open you would have thought to yourself huh yeah okay yeah because I'm saying that even before that I would feel it and instead of Instead of saying, yes, let's have sex. I'm saying, okay, let's pleasure ourselves. You can't do that. So we can do it to ourselves. You can be present.

Right. Yeah. So how do you feel? Do you want to try opening the door again, making clear that it's all on your terms for the time being? I'm scared. Okay. What are you scared of?

Because I can't control what he's going to do. I can't control how he's going to feel because he might be okay now. And then he might be upset and go into. No, it's cool. We'll just, we'll, I'd rather her feel comfortable and safe. And if she's a little tentative, then I'd rather just say no to it and put the ball. How do we start moving down for intimacy?

It's the odd time when she wants to have it, I guess. But she's saying she's not, but we're saying the door isn't open. So that means that the only way you're going to be intimate, which is okay. I just want to be clear. you're saying the only way you're going to be intimate is if you both self-stimulate next to each other yeah and then we check in with you afterwards after the progress and feel how people are feeling safe and feeling that there's no pressure and such and then maybe after a couple

times of checking in with you then maybe that's her based on stacy's suggestion of hey should we move forward to do something more i don't know i don't know i have done a lot more checking in with myself so if I don't feel it then I don't feel it right if I do feel it then I say something and I suggest alternatives or sometimes I just kind of never mind or you know I don't feel like it in the next five seconds if he's not home or whatever but I think for me I think it's great because I'm actually tuning in and actually understanding that I have needs myself and it's okay and it's all right. Whereas before I would feel bad about feeling that. Yeah. So no, we do, we do not want you, we want you to embrace that. In fact, I would, I would love for you to keep a

little tracker even because it'll be helpful. You know, even if you just have something in your phone notes where you put a little heart or a star and the time, you know, it can be a code, but I think it would be really interesting to see when you get those moments where even, cause you know, often it will happen when he's not around. Right. And that's true for a lot of women, by the way. Oh, like at 11 AM, I'm feeling it, you know, by five, you know, when he gets home, that's the last thing on my mind. Right. But starting to be aware and we can talk about it next time and look at how often during the day, during the week, are you getting a little tingle or a little moment where you're thinking it would be nice? Because that's something

awakening, right? That's something awakening on your term. So it sounds like what you're saying you'd like to do is that you'll do that. And you will continue the no sex rule will continue that the ball is fully in your, and the balls are fully in your court, Stacey. And, and so what does that mean? The one thing, the one sticking point for me still is that we've set up this dynamic that if any intimacy is going to happen, it's because Brian is quote unquote, breaking the rules and approaching you. And I don't want to set up that dynamic. The only way you can be intimate it is if you're going against the program. So how do we restructure the program in a way that feels safe and contained for you, but where it can be proactive rather than reactive to going

against it? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, does it have to be him initiating it? No. Now that you say the ball's in my, well, it's always been in my court because you have to make me feel comfortable and safe so without saying that i have all the power yes but you do have all the power we are saying it you for the time being and not in a relationship yeah in the sexual realm yeah all the power period you need that to move forward i believe yeah but i'm not viewing it as power i'm viewing it as honoring what i feel inside or what i feel you have that's what i'm doing let's say you have all the control those are all the triggering words for him no i but it's not over him it's it's i know i know that but i don't think he gets that oh i do he

gets it he's already resigned this is what you said power control i totally get it 100 i know the only way that uh anything to move forward for her to get over this stuff is for her to take that power back right and you have to understand it's temporary i will not Nobody, including me, will let her have the sexual control forever. This is about moving through something. And she had no zero power and zero say and zero control. So for her to be able to feel comfortable and stay in her body, that has to be on her terms. I look at the progress that she made already based on us doing that. So based on us giving her that control and that power of taking that back for herself and not even, you know, I don't even think of it in terms of our relationship anymore before I used to. But now I'm kind of like, no, she needs that power. She needs that control. That's for herself. right but she already made so much progress because she did that so when you said no sex and then she was like stacy was like well you know really like are you home like are you ready what are you doing right now i'll come upstairs and i was like i was up like in a second not even

a second that goes fast but like because of that though like i know she took her power back and then i know the progressions like we said the breast we said with the self and watching she took that power back where she felt like comfortable she felt good not feeling guilty so So if we've already had that kind of progression, I'd be stupid to say, like, not to let her have that power because it seems like that's progress. To me, it seems like that's progress. OK. All right. So you're both on board, Stacey, with you having the sexual say and for the time being. Right. At least until our next meeting. So how do you want how can we set it up with you in that position of power where there is room for intimacy, whether it's self-stimulation, side by side, whatever it is, you tell me what the boundaries might be or maybe the boundaries are as you go. I don't know, right? But how do we open the door for a little more physical connection on your terms?

And oh, that feels safe. I'm not sure exactly how it's going to look, but I feel one of the ways would be for me to just to give myself permission and go with that. And if you feel- I don't really know how it's gonna look because then I- Give yourself permission to what?

To feel sexual. and do what with it to share it since you jostled him to share it all right so are you saying that if in the moment you're going to track so we can look at that too just when you feel it but if you're feeling it when you are together and you want to that you will initiate some sexual contact and tune in with yourself about what you want that sexual contact to be yes i forgot to mention the other progress thing I did I let him know the last time that we had sex that there was areas that were very triggering besides the besides the breast and he understood and I said see look when you do this you can feel and you can see that my body tenses it's not a good feeling

so stop doing that it's not because I don't like you or anything something happened there so I can't break that it's there so we have to stay away from that area and he honored that he got it he saw it he felt it so you know what area she's talking about yeah her ears no no he knows yeah all right okay so that is important too because as you share that and he respects that And those are no go zones. Maybe eventually as you feel safer and as you move forward, just like with the breasts, who knows? Maybe not. Right. But but as you respect those no go zones and she can relax more into the sexual situation, not worrying that you're going to touch her in a place that really doesn't, you know, triggers her. Right. It's for sure that her permission. Yeah, for sure. Oh, yeah. Don't even try to surprise me. No. So I think what you're saying, just so we can be clear, is that you want to give yourself permission to feel sexual and initiate. You do not want Brian to initiate or it's OK for him to initiate as long as he accepts the no and. Exactly. And doesn't. because sometimes because sometimes when he does initiate sometimes for some reason sometimes i'm in the mood it's weird that's okay no that's normal yeah but like for me it's weird because

i don't think i am in the mood until i until he initiates right yeah it's weird but sometimes i'm just not in the mood. Yeah. Okay. So what we're saying then is that you can initiate and that Brian can initiate. And when Brian initiates, you can accept or verminize the initiation. And now this is the next step. When you're initiating, you can say, I come upstairs. I want to kiss you for a while, or I want to have sex or I want to self-stimulate next to you or whatever it is when he initiates you may be in the shower you may be somewhere else he's now having an idea right how do we move with that does he there's two options that i can see one is that he's saying you know i don't know how he normally initiates he asks you or he which is what i would

suggest not just making a gesture like can we do it or can we be intimate and and then he maybe has an idea that you try on and say no I don't want to do that but I would do this or he could say you know I would love to be intimate with you and then you say assuming you say yes obviously this is that you say yes but and this is what I would like to do right yeah I'm a rancher which you're up for him suggesting something that you try on and either yay on it I mean something else Yeah, if I'm not okay with it, or if it feels weird, then I would probably explain to him, now that I'm more comfortable doing that, instead of just saying no, I'd be more open for him to understand where I'm coming from. Right, okay. So how does that all sound to you, Brian? That's perfect. That's exactly what I think I expect. Like, that's my level of understanding of where she's at right now. So I think that's everything's progress.

But I do want to add one more thing that I need your help with. Now, I have a really hard time kissing, like really, really hard. And that's because that used to happen as a kid. And I can't take that feeling or that sensation out of my brain, no matter how much I try. yeah and i will only peck ryan if it goes any further i will pull away like there's no tomorrow because it just it's a ptsd thing yeah i mean you can resolve that actually in emdr but for right now that is resolvable like that's the kind of thing that you can rewire the reaction to but so what is your question if kissing men is off limit no but i mean i want to see how i can try and ease into it okay well you can what i would suggest is that you do it in at a time where sex is not or sensuality or sexuality is not the intention in other words if you try to do it for play then you get triggered then you shut down now you're disassociated like

how do I come back into myself? And it creates this whole thing, right? So you can actually do like a kissing exercise, right? Where you snuggle up together, whatever feels good, hold hands, whatever kind of affection you once again are in charge. Okay. So often I'll have a couple's play this kissing game where he kisses her the way he most loves to be kissed and they kiss that way for a while, then she kisses him the way she most likes to be kissed. They kiss that way for a while. That is not what I would recommend here. Okay. What I would recommend here is that you are the leader. Oh, right. But I feel like I don't even know how to kiss. I feel like because of, because of what has happened, I feel like he is responding,

but that's okay. So at first you just rest your lips on him. Yeah. Yeah. Move them around a little bit and maybe kiss his cheeks and his face or whatever feels good. Right. You're kissing him and he's kissing you back. He's not sitting there like a piece of stone, you know, but he's not like now sticking his tongue down your throat. Yeah. See, that's where it gets triggering. Right. Because that's right. So this is about you easing into it. Kissing is really intuitive. I mean, it may not be the best kiss you've ever had. It might be like a middle school makeout session And that's OK. You'll you quickly learn to get better at it. Right. And you can have some fun with it. It doesn't. This is why if it's not connected to sex or sensuality or for. Yeah, it can it can be playful. It can be funny. It can be serious. It can be anything you want it to be. Right. And you are her willing guinea pig, Brian. Right. so if she sticks a little tongue you play with a little tongue back if she pulls back and says oh

that you know okay what do you need right what do you need what do you want all right here are my lips closed again oh okay you want to like so you're just following her lead not taking it to the next step maybe it lasts two minutes and then she's done maybe it lasts five maybe it lasts ten whatever right so how does that sound I like the idea of it taking out the sex part out of it because maybe that's what it is you know well that will definitely help who knows what it is I mean we know what it is but who knows what will help except that will help because the pressure is off the expectation is off you're in the driver's seat and the train isn't going to take out off without you. Right. Sound good. So I would try that at least once a week. Okay. And see what

happens. Okay. I love that you're, I mean, I think, look, put that in the, just like she, Brian, just like she is going to keep an arousal tracker. I want you to please, and you can keep it too, because he's not going to be, he's not going to remember as well. Stacey, you can keep it too i want you to keep a progress tracker okay you got the boob touch you got the porn advancement now she is initiating wanting to get comfortable kissing so that's progress track i put my notes that's awesome i love it actually right so when you start to go into that you can look at your progress tracker and see all the things all the progress that's being made right and remind yourself that that's just a story of fear it's true okay so you're gonna

do the kissing thing you're gonna open the door to potential sexual connection on daisy's terms and that includes saying yay or nay to an initiation that includes her initiating i really want you to do that yeah i can do that to give him that reinforcement it will make a big difference if you really mean it obviously don't do it against your own will and that the boundaries are as you go right but you're going to do your best to try to come up with a compromise if you're saying yes to a sexual situation yes obviously not if you're saying no but if you're saying yes to a sexual situation and he wants to do one thing and you don't want to do that you're going to suggest something that you do want to do yes okay good deal now on to three things

where are you with the referral so i have the assessment july 14th but that's just an assessment that's not even a guarantee that she's going to even work with me she has to see if we're a good fit. And then I did talk to the sex therapist and she was busy, but she said, you know, she's going to put me on the wait list. And then when I'm ready to do it, then I can reach out and hopefully she'll have a spot. So, yeah. All right. I am also going to see, I'm going to call around to some of my friends who do EMDR and see if any of them would be willing to at least volunteer their time for a session or two and see if we can maybe create some movement around some of the key, like on your, you know, you choose, right?

I'm sure there's a large menu of off limits things, right? That are real trauma triggers. So maybe choosing some of them to work on specifically. So I'm going to see if I can get someone who I trust on board for that in the meantime, because July is a long way off. And we will hopefully check in in a couple of weeks. But I'm proud of you guys. I'm proud of me.

I'm proud of you too. I'm proud of both of you. Thank you. Thank you for your time today. I really appreciate you. No problem. We'll talk soon. Bye.

Bye.