Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Let’s Fcking Date: Serena Kerrigan on What She Got Wrong About Confidence

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Serena Kerrigan built a brand around confidence. She became known as the Queen of Confidence, turned her dating life into a live show during COVID, went on 50 virtual blind dates in front of a live audience. Serena is now the author of Let’s F*cking Date: Become the Prize, Enjoy the Ride, and Never Settle Again, and this book comes from someone who has spent years dating very publicly while also having to take a pretty hard look at her own patterns. At one point, she asked herself a question that became a turning point: Would I actually want to date me? She was tired of attracting emotionally unavailable men and having versions of the same disappointing relationship. Eventually, she started looking at what she was bringing into those relationships too, including the ways being fiercely independent and always seeming completely fine could make it hard for someone to really get close to her. That’s where our conversation starts, but we cover a lot of ground. Serena is funny, opinionated and refreshingly willing to talk about the things she got wrong along the way. In this episode, we talk about: What 50 virtual blind dates taught Serena about dating Why she finally asked herself, “Would I want to date me?” The difference between real confidence and armor What she means when she says “become the prize” Why a quick FaceTime can save you from a terrible first date Her Foundation List and Flex List, and why knowing the difference matters Why strict preferences can eliminate people you might actually love Love bombing, inconsistency and emotional unavailability Why Serena believes in keeping a dating roster Why you should never date someone’s potential Her Potential, Practice or Plot approach to every date What rejection can teach you Why butterflies aren’t always the sign we think they are The green flag she noticed when she started dating her boyfriend Why feeling safe and calm with someone can take some getting used to What Serena learned about receiving care without feeling like she was giving up her power One of the things I liked most about talking with Serena is that she hasn’t abandoned the confidence that made her famous. Her understanding of it has just gotten more interesting. There’s confidence in knowing your worth and having standards. There’s also confidence in letting somebody see you when you don’t have it all together, admitting that you care, and allowing yourself to receive. And for someone who built an entire brand around being the Queen of Confidence, that feels like a pretty interesting place to have arrived. To learn more about Serena, pick up a copy of her book, Let's F*cking Date: Become the Prize, Enjoy the Ride, and Never Settle Again. You can also visit her website, subscribe to her YouTube channel, connect with her on LinkedIn and Instagram, and reach out to Serena directly with your dating questions.  If something in this conversation made you rethink the way you're approaching love, don't stop here. My website offers more content, tools, and upcoming events to keep the conversation alive. And if a reflection comes up, or you simply want to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. Find me at [e-mail]. Because dating isn't just about finding someone. It's also about learning how to stop abandoning yourself while you're looking. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm Dr. Laura Berman. And for more than 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better across every kind of relationship. My intention on language of love conversations is simple to help you learn to love and be loved better, deepening your relationships, expanding your capacity for connection and living with more presence, honesty, and love. Let's get fluent in the language of love together. If you've ever wondered why dating can make even the most confident person suddenly start questioning everything or why we ignore red flags when we really want someone to work out or why the minute we stop trying so hard, people seem to come out of the woodwork. Well, this episode is for you.

Serena Carrigan has built an entire career around changing the way women date and more importantly, the way they see themselves while they're doing it. She's an entrepreneur, content creator, a dating expert, and the woman behind the viral let's fucking date card game and brand. During COVID, she turned her own dating life into a live show going on 50 virtual blind dates in front of an audience and becoming known as the queen of confidence along the way. But what I find especially interesting about Serena is that her work has evolved as she has. She talks openly about realizing that some of the confidence was armor and about what changed when she stopped trying to prove she was the prize and actually started believing it. Her new book, Let's Fucking Date, the no bullshit guide defining love, owning your power,

and having a life while you're at it, is specific, funny, unapologetic, and pretty thoughtful about what modern dating does to our sense of self. And she gets into everything from situationships, lug bombing, ghosting, texting, purgatory to sex, attraction, boundaries, keeping a roster, recognizing a keeper. And what happens when you finally find the relationship you've been looking for?

I wanted to talk to Serena about the psychology underneath all of it, why we choose who we choose, why we settle, all of it we're getting into. How to date without losing yourself in the process? I'm excited to show you. share with you Serena Kerrigan. Serena Kerrigan, thank you so much for joining us on The Language of Love. Thank you so much for having me.

So I'm excited to dive into this with you. You sort of became famous for going on 50 virtual blind dates in front of a live audience during COVID. So first question is, what did dating that many people teach you about attraction and choosing someone that maybe you don't think you could have learned another way. I think the show was set up so people would send in their male friends via an email address and then I had a producer vet them. And so these were completely blind. And I think that that was really helpful because it made me remain very open-minded. Like I didn't have any preconceived notions about who they were. I didn't know where they went to high school. We weren't playing the name game. We were just like, it was very raw and real. But that

led me to just like really just be open-minded. And I think that that really like extended into my dating life off the show. Yeah, makes sense. And was there any, I mean, I'm sure there were a lot of things that happened during those dates that surprised you. And it's nice what they, you didn't have to meet because a lot of people go on the blind dates like in a coffee shop or in a restaurant. And then you're kind of stuck. Did you ever just like, be like, all right, I'm out and press disconnect? Of course. Absolutely. It was very fun to do. But, yeah. No, I mean, like, I think it was during the time, it was COVID, obviously. So I was really trying to convince women that were symbolically go on FaceTime dates and how a FaceTime date, you know, if you could also do it.

I know it's not as widely as accepted, but like we would save a lot of time if we did kind of a FaceTime screener, you know, before meeting someone on date. Because you're going to know within the 10 minutes if you want to, you know, see them again. Yeah, I feel like that makes so much sense, especially with online dating because people, you know, that's better than that. deep into the dating world, but, or were. But this, you know, what I see happening is there's the back and forth, back and forth on the apps and, you know, just a little text here and there, and it takes so long until you finally meet in person. And if you meet in person and there isn't really a spark or they're not at all what their picture seemed or whatever else, you've wasted all this time. So I kind of agree with you that like, you know, you're sort of saving a lot of

steps if you just have a quick face time from the beginning. Exactly. Yeah. Well, so a lot of your brand seems to be built around confidence, very important, this idea that you are the prize. But you've also talked about eventually realizing that some of that confidence was armor. And underneath it, there was a part of you that didn't necessarily believe you deserved a healthy relationship. I don't know if, you know, I don't want to speak for you. But what exactly did you kind of come to realize about that? How did you figure it out and what actually changed it for you? Yeah, I mean, I was 20 years old and I was really frustrated. I made Dean my whole career. I made it really like an important part of my life, but I couldn't seem to quite figure out why I kept attracting like the same emotionally unavailable men over and over again. And so I went back to therapy and I really dug deep into like the fact that I was kept attracting the same person was a reflection of how I felt about myself and how I didn't actually deserve, think I deserve better. And so that was really helpful. because once I realized that, I wouldn't run away from the nice guys or the guys that actually genuinely wanted to get to know me. I think part of me just was really afraid of being seen. Like as simply, it's like I thought that if I was myself and I was just soft and sensitive and vulnerable, then a guy would run away.

And so what did you, because I'm always interested from a therapist's perspective, because to me that's such a huge part of it. You're only going to find someone who is equal to what you feel you deserve and really your own level of emotional health. So you don't have to give us all the nitty gritty of your traumatic childhood or whatever else. It might be underneath the hood. But what was it? Do you think that really was standing in the way?

I think I just had an unpredictable parent as a kid, so I just didn't. I think that's really what it was. And so that just, like, I sent it to adulthood. And so there was just a lot of things I needed to work through. And yeah. Okay. Okay. So you say you can't sell what you wouldn't buy.

Talk to me a little bit more about that because there's a big difference between telling yourself you're the prize, actually believing that you're someone worth choosing. So how did you make that transition? I think that I was just performing a lot. Like I was just this like larger than life kind of I had a persona. I think a lot of it extended. It was working in my job. And I think a lot of us put on a cut up a persona at work.

You know, that's how women are able to withstand and make room for themselves and climb up the ladder. And so I think it does work really well and to our advantage. But I think that when it came to my personal life, my dating life, I wasn't turning it off. Like, I was still being this, like, very intense, overly confident person. But I was really just performing. And so that chapter is really about, like, would you go on a date with you? Yeah. The answer was not.

the answer was no because I wasn't really being I wasn't really being myself as performing because I thought that that's how I would get chosen so yeah it's interesting because so many people that I worked with and spoke into will say you know the person they ended up with

eventually was someone who they didn't even think they were going to be interested in so they were totally themselves because the stakes felt so low and they're like, I don't care this person lives across the world or this person isn't going to be the right person for me, so I'm just going to be totally myself.

And then that ends up being the person they fall in love with, perhaps because they were their true selves. But I just think that that part of the equation is really interesting and really important. A hundred percent. I mean, that's how I met my boyfriend. I was a guest on his podcast,

and like, I didn't know him before I met him. And it was that. I was just so, like, I didn't have an armor on. just like my raw self because they didn't have any expectation. And of course, that was when it happened. Yeah. And I read he asked you out after that, right? That's how it started. Yeah. That's funny. It's really cute. Right. Yeah, that is cute. But I read about it of like having it, using this vacation mentality. Because I think when we go on vacation, we are able to have that energy. And it's like, how do you bottle that up and bring it home? So like on vacation, you tend to like say yes to things. Like,

someone bites you know, like, why not? And someone bites you on a date. You're like, okay. But like, you never really have any expectation because you're leaving. You have a flight to catch. And that is kind of usually why I felt. I always got the most male attention or I had the most fun. And like, yes, of course, it's vacation you're not working. But I think beyond that, it's like, you don't really many expectations. And so then you're not disappointed. And if anything, like you let yourself just be pleasantly surprised. So it's about pulling that up and bringing that home. Yeah. And you are your true self because you've got enough to lose or getting on a flight. You're not going to see him again anyway. Right. Yeah. I like that.

So that reminds me of this idea of rewriting the scripts that we carry into dating. So maybe that's one of them, right? But what are some of the most common scripts you see women living by without even realizing it? I hear a lot of women. I mean, this is like constant being like, my city is the worst cities to date in, L.A., New York, whatever. And I think that that's a really, just glass half empty approach. You know, it's really what you make of it. And if you feel like it's the worst city to date in, is it because you're circle is really small and you maybe need to step outside your comfort zone and meet new people. And I think it's just such a cop-out. And in the best way, because it's a good thing, because if it really was the worst into data, then that would suck. But that's not the problem. The problem is like your perception or perspective or your current, just energy. And so I think that that is an easy thing to fix. I think something else I hear a lot is like men are trash, men are the worst. I could never, like, relationships are so hard. Like, I can never live with a man. Like, all of that energy is just that vibes. And, like, if you were an athlete, you would never go into a chord

and be like, we're going to lose, like, the other competitors so much better. Like, you know, the same way when they're like, I'm going to be single forever. It's just like, you can't go in with that energy. Yeah, I mean, in terms of self-fulfilling prophecy. You know, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, just back to the first one, because I feel like that's something we hear a lot. There's no good men left or all the good ones are taking in. or there's, my city is the worst for dating. I mean, I have several friends in New York City in L.A. who both say that all the time.

So how do you rewrite those scripts? How would you advise that someone, you know, because you can't necessarily snap your fingers and be like, no, I'm not going to believe that anymore. Yeah, you stop saying it. So you stop saying it. You snap your fingers and stop saying it. Your words become reality.

So the more you see something more, the more you start to believe it. So instead of saying my city is the worst place today, and maybe it's like, I've been living in my ex city for so long, like I'm going to go try a different neighborhood today for coffee. I'm going to like take a workout class in a different neighborhood or like try a different spot. Like I think it's like your city only feels bad because you're stuck in a single loop. So it's up to you to get out of that loop.

It really is what you make of it. And like if your city is really the fucking worst thing you need it, then leave, but you can. You know, I think it's all like a perspective. And like how can you say New York City's worst place to date? And there's so many people here. Like I could understand I need to like the middle of nowhere where you have no options. But again, I think it's just like, by saying that, you almost put distance from the outcome. So it's like, well, when you don't end up with someone, let's say, which I believe that anyone can if they want to, you know, it's a cop out because it's like, well, I told you it was the worst city today. And so that's why I didn't find anyone instead of being like, no, like I am looking and I'm excited and I'm up for the challenge. Yeah. And it's true where it's become reality. I mean, it's not just our words. It's the energy underneath them, right? So I don't, I personally don't. I personally don't. think, having worked a lot with manifestation, that it's enough to change your words, right? But what you're, although they do have power, it's what's underneath the words. It's the energy, right? Because I could say, nope, New York is an excellent place to date.

But if inside, I'm thinking, hell, no, it isn't. That's not going to make a difference. So I think it's really important. What you're saying is to take action as well and to try to think outside the box and try to get curious about maybe this story I have isn't serving me. Maybe I can create a different one. You can. Okay, so I really like your distinction between the foundation list and the flex list. So how do you figure out what you genuinely need in a partner versus the things that you think you need that may actually be keeping you from meeting the right person? I think typically, you know, women, when they're writing the list of attributes they want in the partner, they might say something like, you know, he has to be six, five, have blue eyes, work in finance, and have gone to an ideally.

And I think that what they really want is someone they're sexually attracted to as someone who can finish it provide for them and themselves and who is educated, but it could be self-taught, it could be. And then the height thing is just like, yeah, I think it's about being attractive to them. So I found that, like, you know, for me, I always thought I wanted to date an older guy because that was who I associated with handling my success. What I didn't realize was that it doesn't matter what age they are. just depends on the kind of person they are. Now my boyfriend's six years younger than me. So the flex would have been with maybe to be with an older guy, right? Like the thing on Instagram, that's what the flexless is.

It's like, why not what your friends want to see? Versus the foundation is like, what are the foundational values that you care about? Because that's ultimately what matters. And like how often are these flex attributes really preventing you from finding someone? I mean, I can't like, even I think I was like, if I introduce you at the same time to a simple woman, And I'm like, I know a guy who is going to be so committed to, adore you, worship you, provide for you, have sex abuse of you, but he's five, seven. Like, are you going to say no to that? I mean, maybe if you're not attracted, but like, let yourself at least try.

The problem is, of these dating apps, we just set the limitation so much that we narrow it down and our dating pool shrinks. Which then I go back to the city question, your city's worst place to date in. Like, what cool is this city? Like, is it the city the worst place I dated? this dating pool that you've kind of created for yourself. Right. You self-selected. Right. It self-selected. And I'm not shifting blame. Like, I get it. I just as someone who did that and who literally X'd out, men my age, many of your younger than me, men all, like, completely

under than me. Think about how big of a pool I completely canceled out based off of one thing that doesn't even tell you about a person. It doesn't. There are plenty of young and mature and plenty of Peter Pan's and it just depends on on that and getting too. I'm curious what you think about this then, in reverse, because I meet a lot of women who are frustrated, like, let's say she's 43 and is single, and all the 40-year-old men and up are, you know, 40 is their cutoff point. And I've been asked often by these women, which I don't think is a good idea, like, should I lie about my age? Because my guess is he wouldn't really care that I'm three years older than him, especially, you know, unless, you know, unless. he wants to have kids or whatever, but that's not the case in most of these situations. You know, what do you think about that?

About, like, because I do think that a lot of people try to get around those strict limits that people put on their apps by, in fact, lying about some of them. I wouldn't lie. Yeah. It's a tricky one. I mean, I met one woman who was 50 and her boyfriend was 45 and they had been dating a year. She's still not told him the truth. I don't know.

Like, that's such a strange way to begin. Like, maybe lie and then you tell them that then there's no way that they're not going to feel like it's deceitful. Yeah. I think like the most important quality you could look for is safety is feeling safe with someone and to be your complete self. And I think like if they're going to be that judgmental right out of the gate, I don't know. Like, then they'll find you in a different way. I don't know. It's tough, but I wouldn't lie.

I see that as someone who's 32 years old and isn't it up. Maybe I would. Maybe it's a year or two. And it makes that big of the difference. But I would tell them. Yeah, no, I definitely would tell them. But it's a lot in the lines of what you were saying that you said, no one under six feet and someone, 5-9 or 5-11 is perfect for you and doesn't make it get into your pool because you said six feet, right? So it's tricky. Okay. So you were talking about sort of the honesty thing. And I know you discuss a lot of lot of clear deal breakers. You have some very clear ones, dishonesty, emotional unavailability, control, volatility, lack of attraction, agree with all of those. But they're not usually obvious at first. So from your perspective, what are some early signs that we often explain away or make excuses for because we really want someone to work out? But they're giving us those red flags.

I mean, I think the thing that you can never, ever, ever settle on is the way. It's the way, that they are treating you and communicating with you. I think, like, from the very beginning, it's going to be very obvious if there's a, they have a sense of urgency when they liked you. And so if there's no urgency, if there's no wanting to see you making new plans, texting you, be in contact with you. That is a red flag. I think that I met men that used to do that, but then would be completely inconsistent.

A couple days and very urgent the next day, and that is a love bomber. Like, that inconsistency is what to know. So I think that that is so important. That's baseline. You know, I think the thing about volatility, that's a hard one, that's the thing. It's like you getting to know someone takes a minute. And so if you think that you're obsessed with them on the first day,

I can assure you that's not going to be your person, because that's not going to be the vibe that you're going to have. You're going to feel like you're going to feel safe. You're going to feel calm. You're going to feel almost kind of so confident, but not in the overcompensation. When we're more like, yeah, it would save a good, because you're not anxious.

about him not wanting to see you because you know he does because it just feels right. So, you know, I think it takes time to get to know someone, though, and I think you have to see how they deal with conflict. Right. And frustration and anger and all the things that come up. Yeah, I think it's really important. Yeah, you're right. I mean, emotional availability you can, to some extent, determine pretty quickly as far as how they're going to relate to you, that doesn't mean they're going to be emotionally available in the relationship fully, but that becomes clear over time. But some of these other, and attraction you can see, obviously. But some of these others, I think it does take time.

You're right. Like, I remember when I first started to be my boyfriend, he invited me. We weren't even officially it. He invited me on a weekend away, and I had a cold tour, and I had my career. So it was like, this romantic beauty are supposed to have, and he couldn't kiss me. I had sex before once, but it was like, it was just like, and I literally talked to me like, this is where I'm at, totally okay if you want to cancel. And he was like, never in a million years. Like, I'll take care of you. That to me was such a sign of like, that's the reaction.

Other men could have been like, and okay, you're right. Like, that would have been, but then what would I have done probably be like, I would have defended him because it's like, well, yeah, but we couldn't have sex or kiss. So what would have been the point? No, to spend time with you. Yeah. Yeah, that says a lot. It's a really good example, right, of like me bracing. for impact. So scared, so anxious. Because of all the other relationships I've been in and whatever. Not that I remember me that moment. Not anxious, but more just like, I felt embarrassed. I felt ashamed. Like it seemed like, whatever. He just completely made me feel safe. And was like, don't worry at all. Yeah, that's a big green flag. I like that.

Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex love and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level capable of full-body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams. how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to Dr. LauraBerman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage, the Quantum

Sex Free Course. Check it out. Let me know what you think. You get really specific around modern dating in the book, dating profiles and meeting people and texting purgatory and when to have sex and when someone should contact you after a date. So give me some of the biggest mistakes that you think people make and the rules that really matter in your mind. Yeah, I think that after a first date, the man will text to you to see you again. And if he doesn't, then that tells you everything you need to know. Can you text him? Sure.

But I found that if I didn't, that I could actually know if he was interested, because if he's interested, he will pursue you. If you text first, then you don't really know, you can go on another day. If you don't really know, did you make it easy? And it was like, sure, I'll see her again. Why not? or was he actually going to make the effort and want to see you again? I think this is about it's not, you know, it could be seen. I saw someone say like, well, this is like gendered and my, I think that someone could look

at my advice to say it's gendered. It's really not. It's actually pretty fucking feminist because you have a full life, you have shit to do, you have workouts, you have other men that you're dating. You don't have time to pursue a man. You are the prize. They are pursuing you. And when you lean back a little bit and just,

just relax, kick your feet up. You observe behavior. But if you are the one constantly controlling and managing, there's nothing you can't observe. You don't know because you were the one doing the work. So what I want women to do is they're doing enough work. They're getting their hair done, their nails done, they're getting a spray tan, they're doing their eyelashes, they're doing all the fucking things. And jobs on top of that. So let them in do the work of reaching out to you, making a plan with you, making the reservation, and paying for the bill. It's not that many days in the end. Okay.

All right. And you think that should always be the case, even after you're in a relationship? No. Okay. This is just for the core stage. And I think, what, if you're like 40, it's in, yes, obviously offered pay for something. But in the beginning, it really shows you if they're serious about you. And that's what you're there to see.

Yeah. I don't disagree with you. I think it's important. And I also am not someone, I mean, I'm adamant, the feminine. but I do think there is something about being in receiving mode and in your feminine in a relationship that is important in courtship and dating. I think the problem is that it's almost like we have associated receiving with submissing. Yeah, that's the problem.

So we're like, I can pay for the bill myself or I can call the restaurant. We know you can. We know you can. We know you can. And we look for you. But you already do that all day. You're already managing all day. So why don't you let someone?

one take care of you. It doesn't mean you're a Dan's own stress. No, no, not at all. I always say there's a big difference between power and control and you don't have to control and organize and manage everything and still be in your power if you let someone else do that, especially because it gives you a lot of information about whether they're taking your needs and wants into consideration and how attuned they are and how on top of things they are. You get a lot of information when you let someone take the lead. So let's talk about your ideas around what you call the bare minimum and keeping a roster. What is keeping a roster accomplished psychologically? And what do you say to the women who are like, yeah, I'd love to, I'd love a roster.

I'd struggling to even find one decent man, much less a roster. I think the confusion happens because people are like, how can I find three men to date? I can't even find one that I like. But how do you know if you like him? That's what the date is. That is what I'm telling you to do. I'm not thinking in a relationship with three men. I'm saying get to know three men.

And maybe that getting to know period is just one date, fine. But you should have a date on Tuesday. You should have a date on Thursday. And you should be texting this guy that you saw last Monday. That's going to force you to go on dates with them that maybe you don't find attractive on their photos on their dating up, which we know historically men take horrible picks. Yes. And if they took good picks, that would also be red flags.

And that's the red flag if they have good pictures up. Right. They're fucked either way. So that's the one kind of life I feel about for men. There you go. It's a lose-lose for them. So that's why I'm like, you have to be open. What if you agree to going on a blind date with someone that you've never, like you don't know?

Like it's, I think energetically, if you are dating multiple people, it doesn't mean you're in a relationship. I mean, you're seeing them constantly. But if there's three men in your orbit at once, when you are on a date with one of them, you are like, oh, my this is still in my life. like you aren't obsessed with them because you have other options. And you're also comparing it and interesting. The problem is that when we're needing one person, we're fixing on them. We are starving and we just think that they are going to give us everything that we want. And even what they don't, we're convinced that they're perfect for us anyway because we don't have anyone else to compare it to.

And that's a scarcity mentality of feeling there's no one left. So I should just settle for this one. Right, right. It's true. And when I ever I say it is it really, really, really triggers people. And it's interesting to me because I think there's this misconception that I'm saying to have like three boyfriends. And by the way, it's always man. They hate that always.

Really? Yeah. They have rosters for sure. But it's like, God forbid, a woman does the same thing. Yeah. I definitely, I mean, I've been married for 25 years, but I definitely had a roster. I mean, I don't even think we were just getting into online dating back then. So it wasn't like today.

But you're right. Like when you're going on dates with three or four people at, you know, during the same time, it kind of gives you a sort of confidence in perspective. You know, like they say on that ridiculous thing, they always say on Love Island of putting all your eggs in one basket, right? There you go. You got to have them in different baskets. Yeah, it's good.

Even just psychologically, even just psychologically, even if you're really more into one than the others, it gives you a sort of confidence boost in perspective that I think is important. And also going on lots of dates with lots of people just, you know, broadens the pool. It makes it more likely that you'll meet the right person. It's great because even if one guy in your roster isn't the love of their life, maybe he has a sister who has a brother that, you know, could be good for you. It's about expanding your world. It's just about getting to know more people. Unfortunately, it's going to require you to leave your house and be social.

It is. and you have to look at it less of like a, oh, means to an end and more of a, hey, forget dating. You could get a great work opportunity from this. Or a friendship. Lasting friendship over this. So it's like you've got to get out of your ways. It's easy to get very stuck and complacent. And, you know, you just like, the routine of it all.

Yes, it's going to require you to shake shit up. Yeah. And to get out in the world, which I find is getting so much harder for people to do because they just want to like stay in their little bubbles. and I'm the same way. I mean, thankfully, I'm not dating, but I can't imagine, you know, it's hard. It's hard to get out and about. So even if you're dating people, like I'll say to people,

just, you know, treat it like an experiment. Like, go out and just get to know someone. You don't have to be determining whether the love of your life. But go out and be social and practice, right? I think, you know, you talk about that of, I'm trying to remember what you said, potential practice or plot, right? Talk about that.

Yeah, it's great. And I think there's no such thing as this, shitty date. Like, absolutely there's the obvious. It's scary. But other than that, I think there's no shitty date for you. That's why you just need to keep dating. The first is potential. That's what you, you know, when you go on a date, this is what you should be evaluating. Is there potential for another date? Yes or no? No, not really. Great. Well, now you're going to practice that the date is practiced for you. Because when you don't care about the outcome, you're more relaxed, you might test your material, you know, like, it does this joke land. Like,

you're just in your vibe and you feel like a prize because they might be interested or not, but regardless, like, you're on the date and you don't care about the outcome. Then, of course, there's the date that is a car rack, you know, and that's just like a total disaster. And that's for the plot. It's a great story that you could tell at brunch. You're a therapist and your memoir one day. Like, that is part of the story and the fabric of your life.

So when you enter a date and you're just trying to figure out what the guy is, suddenly the date is going to have a positive regardless. Yeah, one of those three, assuming it isn't dangerous, right? One of those three is going to be the case. The plot, but what was again, the plot, the practice or potential. Yeah, I like it. And, you know, there's so much language around situationships and love bombing and breadcrumbing and ghosting. But how do you know when you're being like reasonably patient with another imperfect human being versus dating their potential?

and accepting less than you need or deserve. I think that men show you really quickly if they're committed to you or not. So if they're not speaking to you every day, if there's no plan to see you every time you depart one another, that's not a good sign. Yeah. They say, all right, I'm going to text you and then halfway through the week, they say, hey, you know, I'm going to see what's happening this weekend. I'll let you know. And then they don't want to hear with it. And they never will. So just make it really easy for yourself. Make it that black and white. Because when you start setting those boundaries, then you will get the relationship you want. But if you're stuck putting up with bullshit, hoping it would change, then you might miss out on someone really great. And how do you advise? Because I'm, you know, I'm thinking of girlfriends I have in our, you know, I'm now in my 50s, but girlfriends I have that are in their 40s or even one in their 50s that are dating. And I'm not just saying this because they're my friends. Like these are,

attractive, accomplished, kind, loving women. And I know women always think this about their friends, but they aren't getting, like, they're just getting that. They're not getting any dates online with people who really have potential. And they're not even the ones, in most cases I'm thinking about, they're not even the ones that are bailing. They're trying to stay so open-minded, but they're getting breadcrummed or blown off or whatever. Like, what do you say to people who are finding time and time again that they aren't getting a second date or that it's not really happening? Even with people that they're just trying to get to know and they don't even, you know, because I have these conversations. They're like, I was trying to stay open.

I didn't like the fact that he was, you know, 5, 7 and still living in his mother's basement. Like, they're willing to settle for so much. and these guys blow them off. So, like, what do you think is going on in those cases? Well, okay. I think, like, that's a blessing in the end. Like, getting rejected is a blessing. It doesn't feel that way.

It feels like shit. It feels like, you know, a bloated the ego. But it is the biggest blessing. Because why would you want to waste your time with someone? You know, if they're broad calming you, if they're boasting you, immediately great. Like, you know that that's not your person. I got rejected so much, like, in my identity. I was basically single for all my 20s.

So I don't know. I think it's about if you in your heart of hearts know that your person is out there and that you will end up with someone, you look at rejection as like, great, that's on him. But you're kind of like flickering through like a book. And she's like, oh, not that page, not that page, not that page, not that page, not that page, not that page, not that page, just keep going. And I know that's like, oh, it's easy for you to say you're younger, like, you're in Newark or like, you know, there's so many options. Like, it's just like, if you don't feel like there's options, what can you do to shake up your world. That might require you to like literally like go to a different neighborhood, take a different

route to work, reach out to that girl in college I even spoken to in three years or 10 years and be like, hey, like, go get coffee? Yeah, it's going to require you to step outside. I think online dating, it's difficult in that way. Like, it's like, how can you meet people in real life by doing things that you love to do? And so last time you challenge yourself to the class, you know, visited a museum, went to a panel. Like, you have to make your life really rich. And then the guy will come. that will be a result. Yeah, I agree with you. And I think really holding the faith, which gets hard when you've been disappointed so much.

The height thing is separate. I think ultimately, if you're not attracted to someone, you're not talking to them. So, like, let's have that. There I just, I just picked up on what you said about, like, well, they were like, I didn't even like him. Like, he was in his mother's basement. I know you're kidding. But that's the only thing, too, where I'm like, well, then why are you dating it? Like, you're trying to be open-minded.

Their pull is done. But they're different between open-minded and. And it's assembling. And it's a fine line. But I think it's like, let's say he was loving in his mother's face. But she was building the craziest app that had insane funding. And he was just being really nimble and like scrappy. And then, boom, that's different because there's a plan to get out.

And she's ambitious. That's fine. But, and that's the difference between, I say in my book, don't take potential. Because my boyfriend, I know when he was 23, he was living at home. He did not know what you wanted to do his career. but he was working for himself and he was very motivated. He had an app idea that was honestly terrible that I didn't tell him. He'd got rid of it.

But like, I did tell him, yeah. I'm saying, I don't know if that's for you. But again, like, it didn't matter what, that he wasn't the successful man that he is today and will be. It was the fact that he had the values of someone that was going to be successful. And so instead of letting my ego be like, well, when I bring him to my friends, they're going to be like, what do you do for a living? And he's going to be like, I'm a podcast. I'm working on this app. Like, I don't know.

I just graduated and call. Whereas my friends, boyfriends and husbands were like six years into the workforce and they were like bosses. I could have let that been a reason to let him go or it would have just been like, doesn't matter. He's figuring it out because he has all the attributes that I got you. So that's just what I want to say like to your friend, if they're less thing, which I hope they are, because it's just like, don't date the guy that's a loser. And then because, yeah, it's really pissed that you gave him the time of day.

Yeah. Yeah. The phone state is fine. But don't try to make something stick and you deep down, you don't really like him, but you like the attention. Because that means

that you don't believe something better is out there for you. And that's your problem. That is your acting to solve. I think there's a lot of that. I get it. Like, I get it because I cried

and I was so also down horrific and I also had moments where I didn't believe. But you have to have, I mean, it's like a fucking disson with you. You have to have hope. You have to believe.

You have to believe if you want this, that it is there for you. I was just on this podcast. And the host was like, she's single, she's a little older. She was like, well, it doesn't happen for everyone. And I'm like, of course. And like, I can also die tomorrow.

Like, I don't know. Like, I'm just like, you create the reality that you want. Of course it could just not happen. Of course you could just play a sport and like lose. Yeah, obviously. But that energy and that mentality is ultimately what's so, oh, yeah. It's not it might not happen. What if it's going to happen?

That's just in the way you're talking about something. Yeah, I always say that if both possibilities are true that it will happen or it won't happen, why not cling to the better feeling belief? Because none of us have any freaking idea what's going to happen. Yeah. So the last day on earth every day. It's hard to do. You have to. And that's why I like go back to like, where do I meet guys? I'm not going to tell you like Google. Like caught his guy and X. Me, right? I mean, like, what I say go outside your comfort zone, it's not about meeting a guy. It's about challenging your own self. Like, let's say I told you, like, let's say I told you a guy. had 24 hours left to live in this earth. What would you do? You definitely would not take the same to work, get the same matcha, do the same shit. You would not. You'd be like, oh my God, I've always wanted to take that painting class. I'm going to go do it. I've always wanted to walk in the steep where they never saw it. That energy, that's the focus. If you can do that, you will meet your person. I hands down, and I cannot refer your listeners to me. Be like, you were right. Yeah, I think that's true, that getting out of your comfort zone and, I

also when you are out and about in the world and doing things that you love or that inspire you or that you're excited about, that energy is contagious and someone you might be a little shy or not likely to approach you when they see you smiling and engaging in the world. It makes it so much easier to do that in real life. Exactly. You're not like smelling, like desperation, like, smell like you're not like, where is you? Like, you're just in your vibe. And like that's hot. That's what men want. Yeah, for sure. So you're in a relationship now.

Is there something that you were absolutely convinced was true about dating our relationships when you were single that you've been proved wrong about in this relationship? I think I basically told you, like all the things, the age thing, which trickled into like money and we're on your career and like what to value and not what to look for. I think those were the things that I really. really changed my mind. How did you get over them or move beyond them? The age I moved beyond because he was really serious and he was more mature than any man I ever dated and he didn't was an issue. But he thought it was just like, we didn't come up until our third date, which is how relevant it was. Yeah. And then the stuff about their career because he's out, like I, the only reason why I'm behind is because you have six years ahead. So let me catch up. Yeah. So that was good.

Yeah. So after an entire book of rolls and red, flags and checklists and strategies. What do you think we really need to know to recognize someone who can love us? Wow. That you feel safe to be yourself and you're never editing or screenshoting a text or they're ordering a burger and you want the burger, but you order the salad. You're just yourself. That's what you need to look for.

Yeah. I always say that those butterflies are, the bodies can often be the body's warning sign. And when you've really found the one, it feels like the kind of excitement that you're about to move into your dream home, like that kind of excitement. Not like, I'm on a roller coaster. What's going to happen? You know, it's a very different image. Yeah. I told them that those barclades are actually red flags with wings.

Yeah. With wings. I like that. Yeah. Well, thank you. Is there anything I forgot to ask you or didn't ask you? Oh, I love that. So thorough.

Thank you so much. Well, thank you. Well, thank you. We'll put it all on the show notes, but tell us where people can find you. We'll put the book in there. My book, Let's Fucking Date, is out, and you guys can find me on Serena Carrigan across all platforms and DME if you ever have questions. Beautiful. It was great talking to you, Sabrina. Thanks for joining us. Oh, my gosh, I appreciate it. It's so fun. Take care. Bye. Bye.