Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Letting Go, Letting Love, and Learning to Stay Open with Jennifer Pastiloff

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

We all carry invisible chains: beliefs like "I’m not enough," "I’m not ready," or "What if I fail?" The real cage isn’t the world around us; it’s the story we’ve been told about who we’re allowed to be. Because freedom doesn’t come from trying harder, proving more, or fitting into someone else’s mold, it comes from letting go. In this Language of Love Conversation, I sit down with Jennifer Pastiloff, author and speaker, whose new book Proof of Life explores the powerful act of reclaiming permission to exist fully in your own body, voice, and life. After years of self-doubt, shame, and self-abandonment, Jennifer shares how healing began with learning to speak her truth out loud. We dive into Jennifer's journey of self-discovery, which was shaped by moments of struggle, loss, and personal awakening. In this Conversation, we explore:  How to recognize your “inner asshole” and stop believing its lies Why speaking your truth out loud is where healing begins What “heart-sight” means and how to listen to it The trap of “when I get there, then I’ll be happy” How making bad art can actually set you free Why finding your “I got you” people changes everything The lesson grief teaches us about living now, not later If you've ever struggled with shame or felt disconnected from yourself, this conversation is a beacon back home. Remember to check out Jennifer’s book, Proof of Life: Let Go, Let Love, and Stop Looking for Permission to Live Your Life, now available on Amazon. For her intimate, life-changing retreats, visit jenniferpastiloff.com/ and email her directly  @jenniferpastiloff.com to apply, she loves hearing from people who are ready to show up fully and authentically. You can also find her on Instagram and Substack.  And if this conversation moved you, I’d love to hear your story. Email me at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman. And for the past 30 years, I've been helping people just like you learn to love and be loved better. Here on the Language of Love Conversations, I'm talking to some of the world's most influential and revolutionary experts, thought leaders, spiritual teachers, and celebrities about love, sex, and relationships from a mind, body, and spirit perspective. And that way, my goal is to awaken your mind, body, and soul. It's time to become fluent in the language of love.

Jennifer Pasteloff trots the globe as a public speaker and hosts retreats in Italy, as well as her one-of-a-kind workshops, which she's taught to thousands of people all over the world. the author of the popular sub stack called Proof of Life. She teaches writing and creativity classes called Allow and workshops called Shame Loss. And when she isn't painting and selling her art, she's also been featured in Good Morning America and Katie Couric and New York Magazine, People, Shape Health, you name it, lots of media, mostly really celebrating her authenticity and unique voice. She's deaf, reads lips, and according to her, mishears almost everything. But what she hears is usually funny, or at least she thinks so, she says. She's the author of the national bestseller on being human and now has a brand new book

called Proof of Life. Let go, let love, and stop looking for permission to live your life. I'm so excited to spend some time this Language of Love conversation with Jennifer Pasteloff. Jen Pasteloff, I'm so happy to talk to you and that you're here joining us on the Language of Love. I'm so, so thrilled to be here. You know, we met very briefly, remotely. I think I was following you or I don't even know. but we said it cannot go down that rabbit hole who knows we met yeah somehow i connected with you it was right after my son died and you were so wonderful and i didn't even know until

i read proof of life that you work so much and have had so much experience with grieving mamas i didn't even know that back then but you were so wonderful you were you were in the mix you know but that's when i was so drawn to you i mean that's that's accidentally but i have full body children and that is my thing in life like and it's so I was like I already knew me where I was following you but I just yeah but that wasn't that'll come up when it comes out but um yeah I'll just say everything's unique but I've experienced as yoga people say holding space that's where for people grieving but particularly grieving mothers yeah and that's a real unique gift that at some point we're going to have to drill down into. And I want to take advantage

of your brilliancing because that's a big part of the work that I do in the world, too. But let's dig in. I just wanted to mention that because that's how we first connected. This was years ago. Handbook also is a lot. Everything I do is a lot about grief. So there's always going to be an intertwining of you and I. It's not there. You don't know without the other. And a lot of what you talk about in Proof of Life, you know, even in the subtitle, let go and let love, right? And stop looking for permission to live your life. A lot of your journey started with, you know, what I like to call a series of AFGEs, another fucking growth experience. You know, the backstory of your life has not been easy and also tinged with grief,

obviously, which we'll get to. But overall, I just want to start here by saying that this book, proof of life is so beautiful. You know, I read every book that I'm going to interview on. I feel like that's really important. And I don't really, I mean, I like. And what do I know that you've been at? Because I really am realizing how I can always tell. And I'm always very surprised, which surprises me. Like, wow, you're surprised that people prepare, but I am. And thank you for that. Because when I've gone and interviewed it, I'm always like, you didn't read the book. Like, it's so weird to me that people are going to interview me about a book and not read the book they're interviewing me about. But neither here nor there. That's part of the reason I'm so adamant

about it. And I always find pearls in every book I read, of course. And I can find good things about every book, but I don't necessarily love every book that I read or that I interview about. And I loved this book. First of all, you know this already. You're a beautiful, heartfelt, heartfelt, funny, compelling writer. But I love how you say, you know, this already, because like today, I'm like, no, I'm a piece of poo. Thank you. I don't feel that way.

I'm in the moment because everything's day by day. But thank you, you know, to get into the inner asshole that you may see your inner asshole is very loud today leading into this conversation. So that's going to have to be something we dig into. But to me, this book, you know, my husband was saying to me, so what are you reading now. And I tell him, he goes, what's it about? And I was like, it's like, because he's right to the point. I can't like tell him a whole long story. So I just said, which I thought was hilarious and actually very accurate. I said, it's like an get off the hook book. It like lets

you off the hook. You know, that's something in my book. I suggest that people, I love that you said that. I suggest that people get a book, a journal, whatever, and on the front, write off the hook book and I was like you can write you can write a cookbook whatever but off the hook book and it's private you don't share it and particularly at night before you go to bed you dump in it like a literal dumping ground of anything you want to let yourself off the hook for and it's just this energetic thing because a we marinate and what we think about right before bed right our subconscious but it's a ritual so that when you wake up in the morning you take a breath, you begin again, you get to start over. And my theory is eventually, hopefully, the things

that you put in there, like some of the things that I have to let myself off the hook for not exercising when I was sick today, that you go, well, actually, that's when I need to give myself a medal for. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And it's my friends make fun of me because I just I'm so committed to that. I call it my whoopsie whoopsies every time I screw up and it can be a huge screw up. I love it. Love it. And I love it because it's playful. And that's really a big part of the tone and the intention, I think, for your book, too. But there's so many permission slips in this. And, you know, for someone, anyone who is struggling with self-worth, feeling stuck, feeling lackluster, you know, feeling depressed, feeling trapped, feeling like even everything,

like you said, you know, which is what led to your big revolution. And ultimately, this book, you know, is fine, but it's not spectacular. It's not really what you dreamed of. And this idea of being deserving simply because you exist. I subscribe to all of those so deeply and all of those ideas at both ends. And you did such a beautiful job in the book of taking us through the journey. So I'm really excited to dig into some of these. I mean, there's a million things in a million directions we can go. But I took some notes on some things that I really wanted to drill more deeply into, starting with, you know, how like the backstory, right, of where because I always call it like the point of fracture. For many of us, there's many points,

but there's often that those key stories or stories in your childhood, almost always in your early life where, you know, the trajectory of your life changes, sometimes externally, which I know it did in yours, and sometimes also internally. I think it always does internally for us, even of our outside life. Well, yeah. I mean, it's both. I mean, for me, it was, that's interesting. I was about to say it's external, but actually it is internal.

And actually my new tattoo, I'm going to get inside of my arm, inside jaw. And the point of fracture, that's something my friend Emily Rapp would talk about a lot in writing, you know, writing, like start with the point of fracture. And, yeah, it was my father who was my everything, my person, dying when I was eight. And we had a fight, and I flushed the cigarettes down the toilet, and he told me I was being bad and making him not feel good. And I screamed, you always break your promises, I hate you. And I stormed out, and that's the last thing Amber said to him.

And he died that night. He was in an attic. It was a widowmaker. I mean, ultimately, how he died, And one of my moms, well, maybe 20 years ago, I could like never get it out of my head, but asphyxiated on his own vomit. And but it was his heart. But it was we heated upers and downers all day. It was a druggie. And but my dad was my person, my best friend. And the way that I I was treated like an adult.

So the way I survived grief and also because I thought it was my fault, I said, I don't care. I clenched my jaw. I never slept for you today, Laura, because I was having nightmares and all my teeth were falling out. Which is an actuality, because I never stopped clenching since I was eight. But that's how I survived, really. You know, the school, whatever, I just clenched. I didn't feel anything. I shut off.

And I began chanting in my head all day, every day, I am bad. That's what I believed. Like, I really believed it was my fault. He said as much. You're being bad. I heard you are bad. I hate you. He dies.

And then you're eight, right? So. And listen, any eight-year-old, every kid makes everything about them. absolutely but you in that case he said that you said that and then he dies i mean that's like double whammy triple so it's like sometimes i'm like fuck i have these narcissistic tendencies like it's my fault you know and i can laugh at myself like not everything's your fault you narcissist but i never dealt with any of that so no wonder there's like a part of me that's that's like still age because i never it's like i'm stunted at that and now i don't believe that

stuff like that forever. But I understand that's a default for me. To blame yourself, tell yourself you're bad. You know, you talk a lot and you did a beautiful TED talk, you know, where you talk about all the things or many of the things. I'm sure it's not all the things the inner asshole says to you. Let's just talk about what the inner asshole or who the inner asshole is and what kinds of, you know, how you can tell the difference between what's real and what's not. Because I think that that's a good thing I mean ultimately my first instinct to say is to say come on we know our body knows but then I went you know starting in 18 I was disconnected from my body I mean truly truly truly truly which is why the book behind me is sex magic there's such a

disconnect that I not only was I like did I think I was ignoring my needs I didn't have any like disconnect so right when I said oh your body knows it's like yeah but if you're disconnected you don't know how your body to know what you know exactly so your inner asshole and you can call it whatever you want you know i joke around call it rather sorry rather you can call it whatever if you don't curse i curse i respond to levity so for me i've had someone say that doesn't work your inner child isn't gonna like that and i say it with a wink and i know that it's with levity so you do you whatever works as long as you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else your inner hustle so like my inner hustle is i'm always gonna see you didn't have to

near a time best seller see you're always gonna be in hustle mode see see you're never gonna make it see you suck see there's a c and then a question mark c and it's evidence it's an evidence gatherer all the ways you suck um i look in the mirror i have body dysmorphia fires up when i'm i have a lot of anxiety it's like oh my god you've gained so much weight you look unrecognizable You're a monster. I mean, like, and it made me embarrassed to even say, you know, these are things I dealt with 30 years ago. Really? But that's human. And and me sharing them is me modeling shame loss, which is I don't feel like I have to tell everyone any everything, but I won't hide in shame. Amen. I think it's so important, and I always say that, that when shame is brought out of the darkness and into the light,

it really helps it begin to evaporate. Well, it does. But here's the caveat for the moment, for the day. Because I think where I've gotten in trouble or where one can is, yes, but then you wake up and it's a new day or a new moment or whatever, and all of a sudden you're like, why is shame in bed with me again? Or why? It's because nothing's a one and done.

It's an everyday practice and we have to remember that or else we're screwed. It's like, well, I had a therapy session. Well, I have one day I did really well. Yeah, well, take a bralette. I mean, let's talk about that because you say that shame loss is not a specific action, right? It's a regular rebuffing and unwillingness to take on the messages that your inner asshole is putting on you to take on the shame. And you talk throughout the book about how to, you know, alchemizing shame and self-blame. So what are some of the key tenets of alchemizing that?

Oh, of alchemizing? Well, I don't know for everyone, but I know for me, and like, this is not going to resonate with everyone because I'm not even a writer, but for me, I Am Bad was the baseline. I mean, like, it was just what I knew. I Am Bad. so I teach these writing workshops called the lab and I always start with the question are you willing to be bad and I say it with a smirk so everyone kind of giggles and something that's said to me there's always a few people who really struggle with saying yes because they're so in a

prison of perfectionism but once they let themselves off the hook with that it's like the fun I can be bad I can write a shitty poem I can you know and then I always say write about that's how I'm going to do a bad. And bad is like such a gift because A, use your imagination. You could like switch it around. You can do whatever you want, have fun with it. But oftentimes you go, wait a minute, it wasn't really bad. And you get to really see what does it mean to be bad. So I found a way to really turn it on its head. That's what I call it. And I'm like, screw this. If this mantra was going to live inside me so long, I'm going to take it and turn it on its head one of the things with shame loss is this if that voice goes oh you shouldn't

say that out loud or i could never that shame and that's when i question it and i sit with them for a moment i listen to my body and then i share like the thing i shared about dysmorphia or any of the things i'm talking about right now if the should voice or the shame voice is the one that's like you better keep quiet. Oh, you can't say that. What will people think? You're supposed to be successful. Will you know the best? Blah, blah, blah. In no way indicative of you having to tell everyone everything. That has nothing to do with anything. It's just the things that we feel if they knew they wouldn't like me or if they knew. And it's always often out there. But then it's also this thing that defines us somehow when it doesn't.

Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love, and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is, how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams, and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage,

the Quantum Sex Free Course. Check it out. Let me know what you think. Yeah, and we internalize it. That's why I think saying it out loud, writing it, saying it to one and a half here on the podcast, whatever, is so valuable.

I'm with you. I mean, I share my embarrassing stuff or my sad stuff or my wounds or whatever. All the time for the same reason you do, both because I'm unwilling to pretend to be something I'm not because it saps my own aliveness and it brings on more shame when I hide it.

So there's a self-serving part of it, obviously. Of course, that is the thing. So in a book, I talk about this, what are the payoffs? Because there's always a payoff. And so you can't bypass that part. Wait a minute, there is this self-serving thing is A, you get to stay in the cycle of,

see, I knew I suck, I'm right. Like you get to be validated for whatever the payoff is. And it might be a blind spot. You might be, you gotta really look, really, really look. Yeah. And when you share it, I think it gives other people permission to realize they're not alone in their shame, which may be very much like yours and also share their own. So I think what you're saying is to out it in whatever way you're going to out it,

to process it, to recognize it. And then as you do that, what does the shame begin to alchemize into in your experience? Well, I can't say because everyone's different and that's something I'm really big on is there's no one size fits all that's why I love the school whatever works as long as you're not intentionally hurting yourself or anyone else so my book is not a how-to or here's some advice it's like this is what I did maybe it'll help you maybe it won't but hopefully it'll give you some ideas and questions which I think are the most important thing I can't say oh well six days in it's gonna start to help come on the whole thing has a willingness to discover what works what works and helping me put down what is no longer mine to carry that's the bottom line and

it's about discovering but are you willing to discover are you willing to even acknowledge that you're carrying shame and oftentimes we're not because we just think that's just the way it is or it's been so long a part of us that we can't even like I am bad my thing it was no separation It was my marrow. It was literally it. It was so fundamental to yourself. Yes. Yeah.

And so you have to help me with the timing. I'm trying to remember. But it wasn't that long ago, a few years ago, five years ago, whenever it was, you had another big kind of upheaval three years ago that really ultimately led, I think, to the writing of this book. Maybe it was already percolating, but you decided to really take the reins of your life in a new way, a life that was perfectly fine, that on the outside looked great, but on the inside was not. So can you tell that story? And I can't say on the outside it looked great because after I found out, not so much.

But I do respect that people didn't say anything because ultimately it really is no one's business to come up to you and be like, hey, you don't seem happy in your marriage. You know, it's until you open up about it. And I respect that. It's like, you know, in the book I write about it, like it flipped out of my mouth. I'm not happy. And it felt like. So I'm not your husband. and I had no idea like it was as if I had no control and I still feel like I didn't because

it had been so long buried that I just it came out and once it was out it was like who said that and then it was all I saw but historically I had a thing I do I wasn't gonna say historically I was gonna say there's a thing I do which I think is dangerous because that locks us into a way of being like we're fixed objects in space so i like to stay historically or up until now where i think if i don't name it if i don't say it out loud it'll go away i'm not friends listening that shit don't work okay so once i named it it's all i saw like suddenly it was there it had been there the whole time i just wasn't willing to see it or it was doing whatever i i was lying to myself in order for me with my particular childhood trauma I need safety my favorite words are it's

gonna be okay even if it's a lie I just need to know I'm safe I'm never gonna be left so for me I would just change at all costs if nothing ever changes then no one ever dies drops dead suddenly leaves and so I am like textbook for years would never cut my hair I'm talking that sounds so silly hair down my ass but like I would have hard palpitations any kind of change I even if I'm miserable until it became you know like something within me something you know all the parts of me that I buried were finally like uh-uh and they spoke it and then once you name it it's there and like all of a sudden I don't yeah I mean I always say that for all of us when we're in these situations where we're not wanting to name it where we know something's off but we're not

going to look over there. We're not going to look in the basement. We don't want to rock the boat. I don't think you're at all alone and resisting change and being afraid of change. I mean, I understand yours wasn't, you know, felt like an extreme case, but I always say that the pain of being in the situation, whatever that is, has to get greater than the fear of the change. Probably that was, I was like, what was that? That was like a platitude, not a platitude, even like a quote. And I was going to say it and I couldn't remember it. So I would get it wrong. But that is what it is. And in a book, I talk about how this author friend of mine, Krista Parabani, sent me this text once. This was after I left. And she said,

how did you like out of the blue? She sends me random texts. She goes, how do you get the courage to change everything in your life? And I ignored it. First of all, I thought this is not for me, like wrong person, Krista. But I didn't know how to answer it because one I was like holy shit I did change but I didn't know what to say and actually it was a poem and it and it didn't fit in the book and then I just changed it to prose and I had gone with Henry my partner to a storage unit where all his stuff was because he was exiting a marriage and he had sold a house and all his stuff was in a storage unit in Ventura California who you met right around the time that you had already told your husband no no two days before unrelated we met

at a party and i came home i did a post about him like my husband and i met this guy nothing romantic nothing sex nothing nothing just i love connection is my drug you know i was just so excited and an irony i mean it's just like i don't talk like this ever except right now but like the universe my dead father who knows something was like i talk that way all the time so you can talk that way here no i know i can i'm just saying i do it's not like my you know i always say i'm and you it well like something was like oh we're gonna get these two together it was two days before so i uh all right the storage unit and he was building because he's a nerd he got stuff on Craigslist shelving unit instead of buying one. And there was an hour before the sun went down,

there was no electricity in the little storage shed or whatever you call it. And I was there for company and I was watching them and it hit me. I went, oh my God, that's it. So he had to do it before we ran out of light. I was like, I had to do this before I ran out of light. And that was the answer. And I would have been courageous because you needed to leave this situation before you ran out of light. That's what you mean. Yeah. And, you know, Wayne Dyer, my beloved,

my, I always joke, stalking works because like I fell in love with Wayne after my mom forced his books on me and I was like, no. And I finally read him and fell in love and I would go to all his talks. And by the time he died, he was my friend. He was like, refer people to me.

I'm friends with all his daughters. I'm joking about stalking. But Wayne would say, don't die with your music still inside of you. And Mary Oliver, one of my favorite poems, When Death Comes, the last line is, I don't want to end up simply having visited this world. And those two things, you know, always are in me repeating and I would I would get like goosebumps and everything. And I realized that's what I'm talking about. I mean, who is to say before you run out of light, is it when you die? I don't know. All I know is I'm still here. I got light left and I'm not accessing it. I'm not allowing it. I'm not, I'm stifling it. I'm not acknowledging it. I'm denying it, however you want to think about it. But, and I'm always clear to say it wasn't that I wanted something more. I wanted something different. That's very important to me. right because you talk a lot about how your husband's amazing guy and there's nothing wonderful i love him yeah and the marriage was fine but what well he lives here still every

other week and we're roommates and i was like that before it's exactly the same that is a very interesting thing for me right now that sometimes causes me great sadness because the longer we've lived like this the more i'm able to see how i was living before and what the fuck and how that was just okay yeah yeah what did you say but you settled for yeah i mean it's funny i'm not a way listener i'm deaf i read lips and so if you hear me saying what a lot it's not that i'm an airhead i am but also deaf it's funny it wasn't it was it was just that such a disconnect with my this is the thing about the body that I was like I don't have any needs it didn't feel like settling and I got I'm like connecting queen like I got everything everywhere else so for me it was like what's the

problem and I got like you know you said before how is this serving me trust me it was serving me but then when I realized like besides change what scared me the most was intimacy and that makes a lot of sense for someone whose parent beloved parent died when they were eight who believed it was their fault intimacy one they'll leave if I let them get close the other one is they'll see who I really am and they'll see that I'm bad so I didn't have intimacy perfect perfect or great because you didn't have to really reveal yourself or be really intimate or raise the emotional stakes so high yeah you'd be harmed yeah so what do you think it was that finally that kind of tipped the scales or added that last straw the camel's back or whatever metaphor you want to use

that led you to finally feel like you were i mean i think it you what you said is that you didn't even mean to it just came out no no it just came out and it was not planned or anything then you couldn't put it back in oh exactly um because i said we were in london two days after met henry and i said then it made me sad that our son never saw us i don't know the exact words i think i said like nothing or connected or intimate or you know all the things and he looked at me and he said last life and that was a crucible because i'd been living as if that was so and i knew he believe that, but I got to kind of pretend and deny. But when somebody named it, so now if I either pretend that I didn't hear it or if I go, yeah, then I'm abandoning myself. And that was a

crucible and it felt like a real, this is it, Jen. And it was something greater than me. So I was pouring a glass of wine, even though I was sick, because that's what I did. And I slammed the glass down and I said I reject that but I've been living that was so and then out of my mouth came I'm not happy and it was kind of a whisper and that was that but it was that sentence because I don't believe that and I don't want to live like that's kind of like what we were talking about before we started recording with the book you know with the New York Times I didn't want to hit the New York Times for my ego we all have an ego no shit but it was that I make a lot of money with speaking gigs that's I thought in my mind how I would get more speaking gigs

near times more speaking gigs I can afford a divorce blah blah blah I can give my toothpicks right I everyone's like good luck and everything and I was like you know what love's gonna do it and I'm gonna shake up the algorithm of that's just the way it is because that shit drives me crazy there's such a complacency in that there's such a what you know I mean the only thing I feel like is the sun rising and setting like what else is that just the way it is I mean look my nephew has a genetic disorder that is the way it is but beyond that there's not that many things in life right so when my book did not hit I felt a real sadness like maybe that is like a great depression around that like maybe that is just the way it is with everything like oh well and I don't ever

want to give in to that i mean i get that that's so tempting right especially when our we have a story about how things are going to go and it's an optimistic heart-centered story and we're believing in ourselves and we don't tend to do that or we don't have a history yeah because i am not an optimistic person my future right i mean not finally optimistic and love is going to save the day and because this is the right thing for me it's all going to work out and it should and like that sounds like no I mean I really like I gave away a four thousand dollar spot at my Italy retreat which I couldn't afford to do but I'm really happy I did where people bought 10 books from an indie bookstore not Amazon that pre-order and I sold like 500 books from an

indie bookstore Romans in Pasadena which they're like that's never happened and I was so proud and I was so grateful because indie bookstores need that. And like everyone, I mean, so many people pre-ordered, but I realized it's, so I thought the, I got you effect, which is exactly what it sounds like and doing love and I'm going to this, you know, and I really believe in the book. So, but I mean, there was actionable things. It wasn't just like, well, I was going to save the day. I mean, and it did work. It didn't. And therefore what? Well, I mean, not anymore, but, but in the moment when I first found out was very much, see, question mark, see, see, you're always going to have to struggle. See, it's rigged. See, it is just the way it is, you know. But it's like, if we

accept that, then we have to accept everything else just the way it is, with ICE, with what's happening with immigrants, with our government, with what they're, just the way it is. And I refuse to get into that kind of apathy or complacency. Yeah, I agree with you. Well, One of the things you talk about a lot and throughout the book and seems relevant here is this idea of heart sight. Yeah. Such a beautiful word. It was an accident.

I like it was like a typo or I was like hindsight, insight. I was trying to think about, you know, and then it just was like, holy shit, that's it. So what how do you describe heart sight and how to access it? Because my guess is you're accessing it a lot through this. I am. And right now I'm not like in the last like in the last, I don't know, a couple of days, like something. And I don't know what the trigger is. I don't know if it's hormones, if it's perimenopause, if it's solar flares are big right now. Could be that. it's everything right but i'm totally disconnected and so but hard side is the thing i was talking about about being in the body you know you can call it your internal gps you can call it whatever you want but your heart side is that part of us if you just stop and pause and this is the thing

i never did and like notice the sensations in your body and our bodies don't lie and that's a thing but it won't have all the time we think back and we go you know i had a feeling how many times or where we don't listen to it or and it is hard to know sometimes because sometimes it's like our fear going no you'll get hurt but when we really get quiet the hard side doesn't lie the hard side is like there's so many ways you know you find your own language but you could think of it as like your highest self. That's what I think of it as. And it's never, the guidance is never constricting. It may be like turn left, not right, or this would be better for you, but it's very kind of neutral. It's not like, it's not scary. Like anytime you feel, I feel

like when I feel constriction or fear in the quote unquote message I'm getting, to me, that's my cue that it's my inner asshole or my ego. That's interesting. For me, it's not because of my wiring. That's why before earlier you said, how do you know if it's your inner asshole or not? So sometimes I still am afraid and I do it anyway because, for example, for example,

any kind of change in my mind, I do not say the slightly change equal death. That will get said at the extreme. But then the hard site will say, I'm safe. Like, I lay in bed in the morning and I just chat. I'm safe. I'm safe. I'm here.

I'm in my body. I don't say any kind of like, you know, airy-fairy, whatever. Just very basic. But sometimes there is still fear. But that's for me. That's why there's no one size fits all. So for you and for the listeners, something. The hard site staring is a hard site.

When the hard site is there, is that a scary feeling? No, no, no. Oh, but for example, if the heart site, you know, if we really listen and let's say it's like, it's OK, you can do this. I'm scared. I'm scared. I'm scared. OK, but the heart site is not scared. No, no, no, no. That's a calming. But it's like, you know, we want to be expressing those two wolves right on my shoulder. It's no, the heart site's like, I got you.

the hard side is everything's gonna whatever your favorite words are listener whatever what would be the best thing someone could say to you I ask that question a lot or I used to on my social media and sometimes it's so heartbreaking because some of the things are just like I love you now some are like my son is not dead and like that's impossible and those are the ones that are like oh my god because that that's never like not going to be the case but some of the things are like so you are held like things that we all deserve to feel and just by birthright of us being born yeah and that's one of the beautiful messages that better throughout the book you know too and it was such a great because I do live my life at this point I've been through enough of my own

fucking growth experiences as I call them to live a lot this way and I understand the grace and the creativity and the peace and that it's not consistent you know you're going up and down and in and out of constriction and expansion yes yes but you did a really beautiful job of like it was such all of it was so inspiring and you did a beautiful job of explaining kind of how to get out of your own way using creativity for you I mean you've always been a writer but you also got really into painting and the idea that it opened up all these other avenues yeah in writing my book but in mothering and connecting with what I'm you know and I'm blocking you because um in my workshop the writing workshop allow where I talk about remember I said I asked people are you willing

to be bad what I realized is what I just want to do with my painting because I don't know what I'm doing I can't I always I grew up like I'm not an artist I can't I cannot even draw a stick figure this is true I still can't so I discovered painting at my son's sixth birthday I was the one out there I bought these little canvases it was me and I couldn't stop but because I didn't know what I'm doing quotes I didn't I didn't go to school you know there's no is this good is this bad is this the way you do it is this finished and the freedom in that and so it was all about play and so it opened up a whole different like channel and portal of creativity and I kept going back to it like it was medicine but then I kept taking that feeling that freedom that willingness to

fuck it up and bring it to other stuff that's the magic and like you could see all around me I didn't do that horse I got it at a thrift store which I live at thrift stores but the art is medicine and you know I don't talk shitty to myself when I'm making art except on a very rare occasion and I can't think of another thing I do where I have that and that my friends is worth the price of gold of everything like if you find that and go find it for yourself maybe it's walking the other day I was in my backyard just with my bare feet it sounds so cliche on the grass and I was like oh this is why people say to do this oh yeah yeah I mean I have to have some patch of grass close enough to my house that's like a requirement doesn't have to be my backyard but

somewhere and i'm with you on the painting i that was inspiring too because i am untrained and do a lot of painting and creative stuff too for the same reason i am not as adept in judging myself you say you trained i paint here look i don't know if you can see in my studio i'm gonna show you can you so my god yes why don't we have a creativity day yeah i would love to i do that my friends they come over we i call it a creativity day and it it's anything like i mean and even in my retreat i'm leading in italy next uh in a couple weeks you know we'll have these sessions and sometimes it'll end up being writing or painting or drawing or whatever and it doesn't matter and that's the gorgeous thing about it i mean you can't always do that like if you're in

a class or an essay or call whatever you know but in this context and in most contexts you can yeah we can right we have that that's not yeah and this idea which is related to this but it's also related to everything is this idea of getting there even as you were talking about earlier you know getting there and how futile that is and the idea of enjoying where you are well getting there Oh, when I get on the New York Times bestseller list or when I lose weight or when I when I this, then I can when I this, then I will. And it's all bullshit. I mean, a million years ago, Phil Donahue, I don't know. I heard someone call it a destination junkie. I wish I knew because I think it's like the thing. But I say in the book, you know, we didn't realize more there.

I've been there 10 times over and never once did I realize that I wasn't there anymore. but yeah there's nowhere to get and that's a cliche for a reason but the other thing about it I realized when I had this sort of nervous breakdown and I'm very proud of I still take things personally I still you know I had a breakdown when I didn't hit the list but my recovery time is very quick and that is like such a win so you know I had this breakdown for like two hours. And but I realized, oh, there's still that thing of like looking for proof, like see if I hit the near term, then will you love me? Then will I finally be able to sit at the table? Then will I be worthy as if I'm still looking to provide or get some kind of proof? And I wrote

the book on it. And here I am doing the thing as human proof of life. And I got you people. That's where I want it. The last thing I mean, there's so many things I could ask you about. But the last thing I want to make sure to ask you about, because this is something I talk about so often, this idea of our tribe, of our people. And obviously, we're in a world with an epidemic of loneliness. We hear about it all. Laura, before we started recording, what did you see, Dean? I was like, whatever you need, tell me. I'm serious. I got you. What do you need? That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's no competition. There's like, your success is mine. I ordered your book. I can't wait. I'll promote the shit out of it. It makes me high.

And as a sober person right now, anything that makes me high, anything, whatever, I'm like, I got you people. It's exactly what it sounds like. It's I'm there. I'm there. I got you. I had a friend and we're not friends anymore. And it's the friend I read about in the book who was triggered because she thought I had an affair. And but I could never share my good news with her.

And I was the only friend. And all my friendships are easy. And like this, you know, like, like I got you. and because my good news what always made it like well bad for her well so I walked on eggshells and so there was a relief in a way but I never want that again I want it to be like your good news is my goodness like I and I really feel that way um it's not to say I'll get jealous we talked about that before we recorded but it's really and it doesn't have to be money it doesn't have to be time meaning what I do for you or vice versa but it's knowing that I got you I got you

And that's all we want to be seen, to be heard, to be gotten. And so if you don't have those people in your life, which I know a lot of people listening feel like they don't. I call bullshit because they might not in the moment or feel like it, but it's all about not being open, but staying open. Because, you know, being open, for example, I was so open, I wrote this book that I didn't hit the New York Times immediately. I wanted to shut down. Or if you get rejected or broken up with, it's hard to remain open. staying open, they're there. Like I teach these allow writing workshops. People find their people. You can find them online if you stay open. The problem is, are you deciding beforehand? That's it. I don't have them. That's it. And if you decide beforehand, you shut off possibility.

And once you've done that, forget it. Stay open and keep putting yourself out there in situations where you might meet like-minded people like you have to will you will and then keep staying open because even if you stay open then very often especially if you've been hurt I mean I talk thing and staying open and it's also it's really about what are you deciding beforehand because if you decided beforehand that's just the way it is there we go again with that or I don't have people you're not gonna you know in my TED talk I say you know you can wait your whole life and even if the thing you're waiting for is right in front of you, if you don't believe you have to have it, you're not going to see it because you don't believe you have to have it. And I will die

on that hill. So if you really, this is an invitation to check in with what are you deciding beforehand? What are you deciding beforehand? And that is one of the biggest problem areas of my life. It's deciding beforehand. You don't know shit. You've got no idea. Yep. I say this to my girlfriend all the time who's been going through a hard time and feels a lot of hopelessness about something you know whatever reasonably so and I'm always saying and I've learned this the good way and the bad way you learned it in a way that like and and guaranteed I bet you forget sometimes so but I do but we have how old was your son 16 for 16 and you have no idea what's going to happen five men none of us know what's going to happen five minutes from now for good like not all of

time and we forget. And so I operate, I try to operate from don't wait. And you think my dad dying at 38, me being eight, I would always operate that way. I am impulsive, but that's not why. But a couple of years ago, my friend Ella took her life. And I, during COVID, we had a house together in Portland for a workshop. And we both, I left early because of COVID and we didn't know. And then it was the last time I saw her and there was such a regret. And she died and left behind, took her life, left behind two daughters that were in the house with her. And her husband and I became friends after her death. And he was like, oh, and he died in a freak riptide accident in Florida last spring break. And like the freakishness of it, like your son. And it's like,

you know, don't wait because you don't know. And it's not about living in fear. It's because you just don't know. So I'll have friends that are like, you know, well, we could try again in a couple of months or it's like, I don't play that anymore. So I don't make plans a lot. I'm terrible at that. But if I do, it's not for like seven years into the future. It's because that, you know, oh, yeah, one day it's like, you know what? You don't know. And again, it's not fear based. It's just that this arrogance that we know, I think. And the opposite is true also, which I find very comforting, that things can feel stuck or like they're not working for you

or you can't see how things are going to change, even if you're taking those actions and those inspired steps. Yes, you're right. Everything can change in an instant for horrible and for good. well that that's that's the question of what are you deciding beforehand yes and you have no idea and arrogance to think you do so i'm always like oh okay you got a crystal ball shit tell me what's up for me and they laugh i respond to levity i hope you do too anyone listening because shit's hard out there and in there and look at you know both laura and i talking like both of us

suffered terrible grief. And my guess is that if you also didn't have levity, you wouldn't get out of bed. No, levity is key. Humor is key. Smart, you know, irreverence is key. I mean, it may or may not be your personality. It is mine. It is yours. But yeah, I mean, you got to I love all of it. The book is called Proof of Life. Let go, let love and stop looking for permission to live your life. Is there anything, I mean, I'm sure there's lots I didn't ask you, but is there anything I didn't ask you that you think is important for us to cover here before I ask you how people can find you? No, I mean, I love that I did an audiobook because of the poems. I mean, I think the poems in the book, I thought, so I started feeling sorry for myself yesterday. I

even cried. I was like, no one's really talking about the poem. It was such a big deal. I thought I was going to be a poet in academia. You know, I really thought it was going to be a different I dropped out of college. Yeah. So having poems in the book because I didn't think I got to write poems because not only do I not have a master's MFA, I don't have a college degree. And so the fact that like a big, big publisher did my book and then poems in it. But oh, the audio book, ADHD. See, shame loss is why I share about it because I used to deny it. But the reading of the book myself was really special because of that. But yeah, it's like doing a retreat. I retreats i have one in ohio california in october you should come laura but is it a writing retreat

is it allow one or is it a different one and it's all it's called the reset but you know it's funny i wanted to read a poem and i opened up to this exact one so i feel like i have to read this poem because it's the one i wanted to read it's about grief okay i opened up to it no joke it's called altering time. Not to nitpick, but I said there were donuts when my father died. Didn't mean to lie, but you know what they say, the road to hell, what it's

paved with. Maybe I'm belaboring a point, but it matters, I said, when instead of after. As if the moment he last gasped for breath, a platter appeared, glazed in jelly,

cruller too on the nose, a sacrament from well-meaning neighbors, as if donuts descended down as he transformed into air. I don't know if he transformed into anything or into nothing, but facts matter. They live on, same as a lie. They came after it was too late to change what was said in anger when all we could do was ask chocolate or plane. And pretend posthumous donuts could undo the wrecking. I can maneuver time if I move a here, there, when, after, during. Tell a story enough times and it becomes the story with a slant. You get a message from your dead friend's ex-husband with a photo of thirteen pairs of shoes lined up by a bathtub.

Finally going through her step, figured I'd ask before I donated. You realize you've altered time to again make death impossible. The story of how your friend took her life lives in you. But is eclipsed by the story of eating milky in Rome as she held your baby, your breast squirting milk on the bread, you eating it anyway, Until that picture of her worn shoes, you'd made only the pasta possible. Only Rome possible. Only the silly photo where you kissed on a bridge next to the baby's stroller

as your mother pointed out birds possible. It's hard to put things where they really go sometimes. And we can't help but put words like when, during, after, before, where we wish they went instead beautiful thank you for that there's so many beautiful i remember that one from the book there's so many beautiful poems in there um and you're right listening to read them i really enjoyed because it's always so different to hear the not only hear the author read the book but to hear my passion it's my love language you're getting it i love it and so when If people want to come to your retreats.

Email me, jenniferpasteloff.com. I say apply and I'll tell you what that means. It means just let me know something about you because I want to make sure we're on the same page. It's intimate. I don't want anyone that's like, I just want a power yoga retreat or I want an asylum retreat or, you know,

I always say, tell me something awkward or weird. I'm a weirdo. If you're not a weirdo, don't come. Yeah, good. Because I'm a weirdo too. So I'll show up. So to all of our fellow weirdos and anyone looking to claim their life

and their aliveness, check out Jen's book, Proof of Life. Go to her website. We'll put the website and your social media. Yeah, or you can get Proof of Life wherever and On Being Human is my first book and you can get it anywhere books are sold. I'm on Instagram and my sub stack

is also called Proof of Life because I'm either real smart with SEO or real lazy with naming. Works both ways. thank you so much for for all you're in the world thank you really