Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Married to a Narcissist: Can You Save a Marriage on the Brink?

Episode Date: August 24, 2022

On today’s episode of “The Language of Love,” I am talking with a caller about her struggles with low libido throughout her life. As we discuss her low desire, I uncover what I find to be troubling abuse in her current marriage. For reasons she didn’t quite understand, my caller never felt deep desire for her husband, even before they got married. She always assumed she just had low desire, or that she might have trouble feeling passion because of the negative messaging she received about sex as a child. But, over time, she realized it was simply that she didn’t feel desire for her husband in that way. Finally, they made the decision to divorce, and she moved on to a new marriage…this time with her ‘soulmate’ who was her old high school sweetheart. Although the intimacy and desire are there with her old flame/current husband, the trouble is that her husband becomes quite volatile during arguments. From yelling to name-calling to physical altercations, he is very defensive and easily angered. He lashes out, sometimes pushing her or covering her hand with his mouth. Is this abuse? And what should my caller do to protect herself and save her marriage? And should she try to save her marriage when things are so destructive between them? Listen to this episode to find out and hear my advice. During these “Sessions” episode of “The Language of Love,” I am able to talk callers just like you about their sex, love, and relationship issues. If you want a chance to talk to me live on-air about your issues, reach out to me on my social media accounts or email me at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Hi. Hi. All right. Well, I am happy to talk to you, Michelle. Tell me what's up. What's going

on? How can I help? Gosh, there are so many things. Can I give you a quick background? So to get, bring you up to speed, I was married once previously and had issues with intimacy in terms of like, was not interested in sex at all. I was not. And I feel like when I married my husband, I was kind of like, he's a great guy. He's super nice. But by the time we actually got married, we were already not intimate, but I thought it was because of something that I had to work through. And so he was willing to be patient with me and work through it with me. And that's when I saw you on Oprah and you, I was just like in awe of you because I'm like, here is this gorgeous woman. I think you're the most gorgeous woman.

Well, that's very sweet to hear. Talking like so confidently. And so you're so smart and so educated and just so matter of fact about sex. And I was just so drawn to you. I was just like, wow, like this is awesome. And And I watched you and I followed you a little bit, you know, back then it was like the internet or whatever. But anyway, time went on and I never got over my issue. I saw several therapists. I thought maybe something happened to me when I was a child or whatever, but I think I just

came down to maybe I just wasn't in love with him that way. And maybe I didn't want to accept that. I just thought, okay, he's good on paper and he's a nice guy and he loves me very much. And I love him. I just wasn't in love with him anymore. And that was the first thing. So, and my mom was anti-sex growing up. Sex was bad.

I got caught having sex, not in the act, but got caught at 15, like the day before my 16th birthday, I got grounded for the first time in my life because I got caught having sex and skipping school and forging a note and all this stuff. But anyway, traumatizing from a mother who is against sex and stuff like that. So just those influences. So that's what I really thought it was more of that. But anyway, so I just really needed to be married to someone. I wanted to be in love with someone like he was a great partner.

He's a great dad. We're still have a great relationship, but I just, I'm like, I see other people and I'm like, they're going on date nights with couples. And the thought of that with my husband gave me anxiety, but I wanted it so bad. So I had an affair and things, you know, whatever, but he would have actually still stayed with me, but it was just time to move on. So one thing, you know, it was hard for me because I had this one true love in high school. So I had my first boyfriend, who's the one I lost my virginity to.

We dated for a year and then I lost my virginity to him and got caught. But then later he cheated on me and I started dating this other guy who is the love of my life. And we never, we had such a great connection, but he was two years younger than me. I was, I was a junior, he was a freshman. And then I was a senior and he was a sophomore anyway. It wasn't the right time or whatever. but we married other people and whatever. Now he and I are back together and married.

You're married. And we've been married for seven years. But the thing that's crazy is that we cannot communicate. Like we are soulmates. We have been soulmates our whole life. We get along so well. We understand each other. Like when I'm with him, it's like, even if he's sitting here, I just feel whole. I mean, I watched some of your videos yesterday on closing your own circuit. I think maybe some of that I need to work on, but in general, this is the man that I just feel comfortable with. And what about passion? Okay. So we, at the beginning had a lot, you know, had a lot. And so I was like, okay, this is great. I don't have this hurdle where I just can't, you know, whatever, but he has a temper and it started coming out and it can get bad. And

And let me pause you there. How bad does it get? Physical, emotional, hitting walls, hitting you. Well, and I have to admit now that because, well, I shouldn't place blame somewhere else, but after he started doing it a while and it started to become a thing, I engage in it now, too. And so we'll what happens. But so anyway, so it's mostly it'll be screaming. It'll be screaming. And then, I mean, at times it has gotten to like pushing or, you know, Does it ever get where he screams or calls you names or says really mean things? Yes. And yeah, like the thing, too, is he twists everything. It drives me insane. And I'm like, you're twisting it. And does he take things that you've confided or things that you're sensitive about and uses them against you in an argument?

Yes. And I'm like, if I can't trust you to like, who can I trust? Yeah. Yeah. So it's crazy because it's this person that I never would have expected this from. Does he acknowledge there's an issue when he's calm? He, I mean, I've been on his case. I refer to you. I talk about you. I actually, I mean, I love studying people. I have some background in psychology myself, just education, elementary education, stuff like that. So I'm always interested and I talk to my kids and talk through things all the time. So he's used to me starting to talk through things, but it's interesting because he just has been always so defensive. He just, you can't, he just,

everything is so defensive. I'm like, it's okay. Like, it's not a big deal. If you don't know, if you left the door open, I'm just asking. Like, I remember one time at the, like towards the beginning when this kind of first happened and just shook me was we were going to bed at his house and I'm just, I can't have OCD, but whatever. I just like always, I didn't even think it was a big deal. I'm like, make sure you lock the door before you go to bed because he was going to bed after me. And it's just, I don't know. I just didn't think it was a big deal.

He's like, you don't have to tell me to lock the door. I'm not fucking stupid. Okay, so he's a narcissist. That's not the end of the world. Everybody's a little narcissistic. When I say someone's a narcissist, it's not like evil, bad, kill all narcissists like some people are.

My son is a self-admitted narcissist who's been in treatment for it. It's not a big deal. It comes from trauma and wounds and everything you're describing is narcissistic behavior. And I've told him, you know, and we've talked it through. And so one thing big did kind of happen because you asked and I just kind of because you asked about passion and intimacy.

So I was kind of trying to get to this point. I kind of lost myself. Sorry, but this is all relevant is it was like a year ago. It was actually when. Oh, my gosh. Why am I? How can I forget her name? The girl that went missing?

She was the one. Yeah, I know who you're talking about out in out west. she was with her boyfriend traveling. Yes. It was actually during that. And we got into an argument and we can't control ourselves once we start screaming and we have our kids half the time at the same time. So like, we don't like to fight when they're here, but sometimes neither one of us, and sometimes he's worse than me, like can't control. He needs to know what I'm talking about right now. Like, what do you mean? And I'm like, let's not talk about it now. It's not a good, you know, and we just can't whatever. But so we were getting in one of those kinds of

arguments. And he put his hand over my mouth and kind of put me on the bed and straddled me and I couldn't breathe. And it scared the crap out of me. And it was actually right at the time when kind of this all happened. This was all happening in the news. Yeah. And he kind of is starting to admit that there's issues, but he just is so guarded and he's just so defensive. Would he ever go to therapy? No, no. I mean, he's saying, I told him, I said, after that incident, I said, we cannot move on until you go to therapy. I'm like, it is ridiculous that you talking to someone is like, you're going to blow up our whole family because you will not have a conversation with somebody. And so even this was a big deal. That's why he was like, I was like, oh, I can't do it.

Cause you mean talking to me was a big deal. Well, no, he knows I'm talking to you now. Yeah. When you text it. Cause when I first said I couldn't do it because I was like, well, if I can't be anonymous, I couldn't do it. And I'm like, that's fine. You know, I was like, that's fine. And then you guys came back and we were actually sitting here last week or whenever it was. And I'm like, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm like, they're letting me be anonymous. I can do it. And he was still resistant. Because he doesn't want me to give you anything that's going to rock the boat. So let me just put a pause in this because I already have a really clear picture. I can feel into and understand what is going on. Okay. And maybe I don't have

it perfectly and we'll fill in more blanks, but let's just take a pause for a moment because it's going to be relevant. Growing up, right, you said you were grounded. The only thing you said really when we were talking about your childhood is that it was very kind of sex negative, right? But you didn't talk about the emotional sense. So was there emotional or physical abuse in your home growing up? Oh, yeah. And I would I just didn't want to take up too much time. But yeah, not to me, but my mom hated my dad. I'm the youngest of six kids. And by the time like they got to me and I was in elementary school, my mom was like done with the marriage. So how did that play out with criticism? I've never heard my mom say one nice thing to my dad ever in my life. How would he

respond? Would he fight back or would he shut down? He would take it. He would kind of take most of it. I mean, sometimes he would kind of like bullshit, you know, whatever. And it took me a long time growing up. And I did talk to therapists because I'm like, I would interject and want to stick up for my dad. And then my dad would yell at me because it would just make it worse for him. And then I'm like, why is my dad yelling at me? So it was an emotionally abusive relationship. Was it physically abusive as well? No, but this, by the way, men can be physically abusive. I mean, this was every day, literally every day. So that was your model growing up. Yeah. And you didn't have a model of what a loving, respectful relationship looks like.

Right. And you met this guy in high school. You feel this deep sense of connection and familiarity with him. You feel passion with him. You have fun with him. You have a lot in common. But he it sounds to me, I mean, I can't diagnose him. I've never met the guy. But just from what you've described to me, I'm going to and my experience, you are in it. That's why I was say, I was filling in the blanks for you as you saw, right? I was like, and does he do this? And does he do that? That is what a narcissist does because a narcissist, the fundamental thing that sets them off is that they are, you feel like you're walking on eggshells around them because the slightest thing, like, don't forget to lock the door they take as an insult because their ego

is so fragile. It's so fragile that the minute they feel, this is why he didn't want you to talk because God forbid there's embarrassment, humiliation, trauma. So the things that you wouldn't even think, let's say you picked a piece of lint off his lapel in a public setting, he would take as embarrassing and offensive and humiliating and might fly into a rage. Right. So. Yeah. So it's really he would never do it in public. Oh, he only does it. Does he get mean in public or no? He is a people pleaser in public. Yeah. That's another narcissist thing. They seem really charming and they love bomb you in the beginning. Like, I don't even feel like he loves me and cares for me, even though I know he loves me.

We like go on vacation. But a narcissist who isn't treated and isn't addressing their wounds literally can't love in the way you're talking about. I'm not saying he doesn't love you in his own mind. He does. But you got to think of it as like a full cup of love, right? He's giving you his full cup of love. But a narcissist's full cup of love is like a little thimble cup or like a Dixie cup.

Remember those little Dixie cups at the water bubbler? He's giving you a full, full cup, but is that enough love? Right. And a narcissist who isn't, who is this far on the narcissistic spectrum and just the little bit you've described to me, he sounds pretty far on it. Well, that was a long time ago. I do. I want to give you that example because that was like the first time something happened.

I was like, what in the hell? And I'm not even talking about the violence I'm talking. I mean, I'm saying that lock the door like now because I've called him out on it. I'm like, you freaked out on me before about it. But one day he forgot to lock the door. I'm like, just so you know, are you still what you're I understand that this is hard to hear and I get why you're backtracking a little bit. But you called me for a reason, right?

You reached out to me for a reason. I will do whatever you're. No, I'm not going to tell you. I will tell you what I think you should do or what I hope you'll do. But I want to make sure we're both on the same page first. And I feel you defending him. I'm not saying he's a bad person. I think he's a beautiful soul.

I think he's a very hurt person and hurt people hurt people. And what I always say, and I know you follow me and you've probably seen me say this, that personally for me and what I try to support in other people is that you cannot feel safe and cannot successfully be friends, lovers, partners with someone who is not friends with their shadows. And a narcissist fundamentally, by definition, is not friends with their shadows. They're spending their lives running from their shadows. That's why they flip out when you say lock the door because you accidentally are shining

a light on a shadow that you don't even know is there, right? So unless he is willing to become more friendly with his shadows, which means he has to acknowledge for himself, even if it's because the relationship is at risk, even if he just acknowledges, I have an issue with anger. Even if we don't call it narcissism, we call it an explosive personality and easily trigger. We won't even label it. And then he'll say I am, too. You know what I'm saying? Yes, you are. And I can be. And I am. And nobody's right and nobody's wrong. It's not like you're the only victim in this relationship. You guys right now, maybe it wasn't always this way, but you're doing this to each other. Right. So this is why he the one thing I

can guarantee you, and I would tell you right now, you need to leave this relationship if he is unwilling to go to therapy. And when I say therapy, it is both of you in individual therapy and both of you in couples therapy together, period. And if he or you are unwilling to do that, this relationship is doomed. Okay. And it's just going to get worse. Okay. From morning hockey with a cup of coffee to Timbits and road trips, Tim's and Canadian Tire have always gone together. Now it's official. You can now earn Canadian Tire money at Tim's.

Link your Triangle Rewards and Tim's Rewards accounts to earn twice with every Tim's run. Terms and conditions apply. Visit timhordens.ca slash triangle for details. So that's the first thing. And if he is unwilling, even, and you have to be willing, and you may have to get to this point and not bluffing, like meaning it. I can't stay in this relationship unless this happens. We are not capable of managing this ourselves. These wounds are too deep and we trigger them in each other. And I am not pointing the finger at blame at you

and saying you're the evil one in this relationship. I have my own hundred percent. And the two of us together trigger each other and trigger each other's wounds. And we have all of these strengths and all of these beautiful aspects of our relationship. But this makes it untenable for us. And until we both are willing, and I am willing, but until we both are willing to address our individual wounds and learn how to communicate better, how to work through our conflicts and our triggers more supportably together,

I can't stay in this relationship. So unless you are willing to do this, I have to go. And that's where we've been. and obviously been is the bad thing. And that's kind of where that happened. I think it was September 11th when that happened to me and basically, so no intimacy. I'm like, I can't go there with you. How can you, how can you go there when you don't feel, and it's not just expecting me to, but we're never going to get there. Right. This is why the relationship isn't sustainable. And to me, I know you're focusing and I am very concerned and I too, you know,

I'm focusing on the physical altercation, but quite frankly, and I don't think you fully, I think you get this intellectually, but I don't think you fully get it on a heart level because of how you were raised and you marinated in this your whole life. But the emotional abuse is in many ways as, or even more damaging when someone takes your vulnerabilities, your self-disclosures, your insecurities and weaponizes them. That is the most hostile act there is short of punching someone in the face. It is unbelievably toxic and hostile. And in the moment, the reason there's this anger issue is because when he gets triggered, he is no longer sane. He is no longer himself. He leaves the building and he loses himself. And it sounds like to a certain degree,

once you get triggered by him getting triggered, you lose yourself. Right. And then all that. I'm like, we can't talk right now. Like I've tried to, you know, I've seen your where you take time and you describe what it makes you feel and your story. And no, but you can't have that conversation with the person who's not in the building. And then he'll be like, no, let's just and I'm like, no. And then like it'll start where he'll react to me. And I'm like, Joe, relax. It's not that big of a deal. And he's like, what? I didn't I'm not freaking out. I'm like, yes, you are. And then he'll be like, I only said this. I'm like, no, you said. And he's already changing. We're already being defensive and gaslighting. 30 seconds ago. And we just can't

even get to like. But it doesn't even matter. You're focusing on the content, the content to me at this point. I'm not saying the content isn't super important. No, I'm saying at this point, the content is irrelevant. OK, we're not even worrying about content. We're worrying about mutual respect and delivery, right? So what I would want you to say when he snaps, right, starts that snap, is not to engage and to say, stop. I feel, I hear your anger. He's like, I'm not angry. Okay. Well, your tone of voice I heard is angry. If you say you're not angry, fine. Let's take a breath and move on, right? But you know that he's now triggered. And so the last thing you're going to do, because once he's triggered, he is no longer himself anymore.

Think of it as an insane person. You can't have a rational conversation with someone who's insane, right? I'm not saying he's insane, but when he gets triggered, like all of us, when we get triggered by our shadows, we're not really sane. So you don't try to have a rational conversation with someone when their nervous system and their anxiety and their anger is so elevated, they're not even in their brain anymore. They're in their, well, they are in their brain, but they're in the amygdala, the reptilian part of the brain, the fight or flight part of the brain, not the thinking part of the brain, not the rational part of the brain, not the part of the brain that can resolve conflicts. So you can't have that kind of

conversation. Right. And so you say sometimes it's hard to get away from it. And then you fight trying to get away from it. Right. Well, you have to be able you have to make an agreement. And this is where the couples therapy, if you were seeing me in couples therapy, right, I would be setting up. And this is what a couples therapist will do is setting up parameters. OK, so let's make a plan. Here's your sign. When you put one finger up, either one of you, even if the other person thinks you're crazy, you're feeling attacked and anger coming on. So everybody takes a deep breath. You go to separate rooms and you just calm down and you wait an hour and then you come back together and you just sit quietly next to each other and hold hands. And then you tune in. And

is that agitation still there? Put another finger up, leave again. Right. And not until both of you can honestly, and the therapist will sort of coach you and him, especially through identifying when he's even in his trigger, because I don't think he does. The reason he's like this is because he was so probably emotionally abused and maybe physically abused himself that what he does is he tries to gas, he gets super defensive because when he was wrong as a child, it was really dangerous. It was really dangerous for him emotionally and or physically. So he just by nature can't tolerate being wrong or being incorrect or having done something wrong in quotes, whether that's insensitive or careless or anything negative, anything he can't.

So because of that, he can't take responsibility, but that doesn't mean that's okay. That means you got to work on that shadow, dude. I want to have a grownup relationship where each of us can take responsibility for the stupid things we do. I just had this conversation with my father because we had a meeting with our kid's college counselor and I forgot to put it in his calendar. You know, we invite each other to stuff. And so he had something else going on and he was upset because I hadn't invited him. So he didn't know about it.

Now, if this happened with your husband, he would say either, well, I sent the invite. You didn't get it or he'll come up for some reason. Right. And there is a part of me because I'm in some ways your husband. I don't get rageful, but it was not safe for me to be wrong either. So the old me probably would have done that. Right. But the healed me says, I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry. I totally spaced on inviting you. I'm so sorry. And he's fine with it. It's no big deal. Right. But for him, it was a big deal. Yeah. He can't even say that. because that he's operating from that fear that he's going to get. Yes. And his mom has told, and I love his dad. It's crazy because over the past two years, while all of this has kind of been happening and I I've texted, I mean, I messaged you, I know you don't know it's me or

whatever, but like I lost my mom, my dad, my brother, and my father-in-law over the last, well, since November of 2019. So my father-in-law recently passed who were kind of talking about but like my mother-in-law has, has said that he would get angry and like scream and that she would tell the kids, Oh, don't worry. He'll get over it. Just a word or whatever. Yeah. I feel like then that's what he expects you to do. Yeah. Like who's like, do something awful, like mean and just is so awful. And then I'm like, how can you expect me to turn around the next day? And like, right. Or sometimes even an hour later in five minutes. Oh, do you want anything from Taco? Because they can't tolerate the shame of the rage.

So my dad used to do that. My dad used to rage and say the most hateful things to me, especially as a teenager that just destroyed me. And I would go to my room crying and he would come up once he calmed down within five to 10 minutes or 30 minutes and want to come in and have a hug and not resolve it, just prove to himself that everything's okay.

And I didn't want to be anywhere near him. And if I didn't want to be anywhere near him, he would rage even more. In fact, I once locked the door and he kicked the door in, right? Because he couldn't tolerate my disappointment in his shadow behavior, right? That's exactly what happens. From morning hockey with a cup of coffee to Timbits and road trips, Tim's and Canadian Tire have always gone together. Now it's official.

You can now earn Canadian Tire money at Tim's. Link your Triangle Rewards and Tim's Rewards accounts to earn twice with every Tim's run. Terms and conditions apply. Visit timhordens.ca slash triangle for details. And so that's not okay that what you are in right now, I'm not saying you're not participating in the abuse by getting triggered yourself, but what you are in right now is an emotionally abusive relationship, period. You are. Okay. And so that's not okay. Okay. And he has to be willing to go to individual therapy, to deal with his shadows, to get some anger management skills,

to calm themselves. You know, there's strategies for in the moment, calming your nervous system down, getting out of your amygdala, challenging your assumptions, like cognitive behavioral techniques for anger management. But also, yeah, take counting to 10, taking belly breaths, going for a walk, hitting a punching bag, challenging your questions. Is it true that she meant to disrespect me when I said, once you calm down, when she said, lock the door or whatever. So they learn those techniques, but they also are dealing with and starting to heal some of those earlier wounds and models they had growing up. Right. And you're doing the same thing on you. You're both taking responsibility for yourselves. And then in couples therapy,

you're coming up with strategies to have better communication because neither one of you learned or I'm not saying you didn't learn. You didn't have a model like most of us of what healthy communication looks like. And I hear you that you've been studying this and you listen to me when all my teachings about healthy communication, but you're not going to be able to do that with someone who's in their trigger or when you're triggered. Right. So it's about learning to control and not be at the effect of your triggers and being willing to excavate your triggers so that they aren't so sharp and on the surface and easily touched. Right. The biggest thing, and you did hit on it is like where he'll take something that I've told him very personal or

very, you know, whatever, and use it against me. That's emotionally abusive. That scares me. Like, I feel like if he can do that to me, how can he get past that? Like, I don't know, just the fact that he could do that to me, this person who's like, well, he's not, I agree. I wouldn't be able to, I mean, there's, it's a huge betrayal. It's a huge betrayal and it makes him very dangerous to be authentic with, right? And what you want in a love relationship is to be your, the only way you can be happy, fully fulfilled and not that you can't be happy, but the only way you can be fully fulfilled in a love relationship is if you feel safe and accepted and can be your true, authentic, vulnerable self, both of you. There's nothing more magical than

that. There's nothing more beautiful than that. That's what love is, right? Love is that. And when you can't have that, you can't really have love. You have that little Dixie cup of love. And I think with this healing, part of the work between the two of you with the therapy is in reestablishing trust. It's going to take a while. This is a betrayal, him doing this to you and repeatedly doing this to you. And so you have to develop trust over time as he learns to control his anger and his

weaponizing of things right the reason he's doing it is not because he even wants to he is pulling out every piece of ammunition he can think of to make you wrong and make him right in the moment twist it and just to whatever is needed or whatever yeah hold on to his delusion of perfection and i tell him that's what he's doing like i but but you're talking to an insane person in that moment Yeah. So he's not going to hear you. That's true. That's right. Right. So you have to be able to get these agreements. And sex is not going to really work until that's the least of your issues. Right. Sex isn't going to work until there is emotional safety. Right. And then when there's emotional safety, there can be emotional intimacy. And then when there's emotional intimacy, there can be sexual intimacy. Right. Right now, you're not safe. You've been betrayed and you're being emotionally abused. And none of this is to say he's an evil person and you should get divorced. Right. But if he does not, not only is not willing to do the therapy individually and together, but also if he goes and then what I'm afraid he might do is go to a few sessions and then find as soon as it gets a little tough and it starts to scratch below the surface, start coming up with reasons why that therapist is not safe. is an idiot and the couples therapist is on your side and whatever else, if he is unwilling to stick with it, and I'm talking like a year for all of this, at least if he's not willing to stick

with it, your hands are tied. This is going to be your life and you have to decide whether that's what you want. Yeah. I did want to just say too, that my stepdaughter is 16 now. And so it just has kind of come full circle because all the things I've been pointing out to him and kind of like, he listens, he does listen a little bit, but he's still, he's gotten slightly better. And, but we haven't made the trip to the therapist, but it's interesting now because as she's gotten older, the things are happening between her and him. And so he, I'm like, do you see it's the same exact thing? You know what I mean? So it's, and so she walked in, unfortunately she walked in when that thing was happening. Oh, no. Or right after it, right after it. But I was like,

so she's like, I've never heard you scared before in your life. And I mean, she she's in therapy and she it took her several months to get over. Yeah, that's traumatizing. So you're also giving your kids a mom, even if you're not right, even if you're not overtly fighting around them, you're still giving them a model of what to expect and love. Right. And you have to. And for that reason alone, go to therapy. Right. But also it's holding him a little bit more accountable because she knows, and it's still, we still haven't gone. I mean, don't attach to the idea that if he somehow acknowledges there's a problem, this will get better. This is not something he can do on his own. The wounds are too deep. The shadows are

too dark. He's not going to be capable of doing this on his own because in the moment that he's triggered, he's not himself. He's not in the building anymore. If he were, then it would be something, but that's not the way triggers work. And go to what state are you in? Michigan. Okay. Go to therapistlocator.net and look for a therapy. You can look by zip code or whatever within five to 15 miles. And now of course you can do a lot by Skype anyways. So, but look for someone who does couples therapy and someone who does anger management and cognitive behavioral therapy. And that's for him. And for you, I think you're just looking for a general therapist who may be the same thing. Maybe you, I don't think you need anger management,

although it sounds like you do get triggered to aggression when he's aggressive, but, um, So frustrating. But if that's, I don't know, if that's a lifetime thing where you tend to get rageful, then go to anger management yourself. If it is a specific to the relationship thing, then it would be more therapy around family of origin issues is what it's called. I occasionally get triggered, but in general, I mean, I'm not rageful with people. I mean, something will trigger me and I like my brother or something, and I will not, I have boundary issues and I stand up to things, but, and if people like violate them, I can get angry. I do. But what happens when you get angry? Do you, what do you just like say thing? Like,

I'll just, I say exactly how I feel, but sometimes it's not filtered to how someone, you know, it might not like, it's just cursing and yelling. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah. And do you ever call names when you're mad at someone? I mean, only recently, like, because he's done that where it's not, I'll call him a name, but I'll be like, the way you're acting is so immature. I'm like, this is so stupid. He'll be like, I'll call me a name. You know what I mean? But it's more, I'm just trying to like, this is, it's so ridiculous that we're doing this. Like it's so stupid. You know what I mean? But Oh, here we go with the name calling. It's like, I'm not really calling names. Like, but he's the first one to call me a name. Well, so if he, if he said

you, if he says to you, you need to go to anger management too, then go. I will. Yeah. And then that person will say to you, well, it will help you no matter what. Yeah. I would love to, because I think I don't, I mean, I would love to, because I eat that he triggers me. Yeah. And that's the thing. I am all about being self-aware and working, you know, as much as I can on things. And that's why, like, if he can just say, oh yeah, this it's like, oh, okay. No big deal. Yeah. But he's not able to. It's so crazy. So I know. I appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time. I wrote me a prescription, but there's no cure for crying.