Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Navigating the Tides of Intimacy

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

In this Language of Love Session, I catch up with the amazing couple, Marla and Ken, who have been married for 38 years, to discuss the challenges and triumphs of maintaining intimacy in a long-term relationship. If you have been following Ken and Marla's journey, you're probably eager to hear about their progress. And if you're new to their story, I highly recommend catching up on their previous episodes—it's been quite a ride! Marla and Ken open up about their emotional highs and lows, including the impact of losing a close friend and struggles with finding the right therapist and committing to daily connection exercises. We also delve into their struggles with self-criticism and their pursuit of joy within their partnership. So, let's dive right in and see how things have been unfolding since our last session. We discuss: Challenges in expressing love and connection in the relationship Importance of foundational activities for maintaining a strong connection Suggestions for building physical and emotional intimacy Identifying specific actions to nurture emotional bonds and self-care Don't forget to explore my free course on Quantum Sex! It's designed to elevate your sexual experience to new heights. Simply visit the homepage of my website to get started. Until next time! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Marla and Ken, my peeps, my ongoing peeps, what's going on? Where are we? It's been a while since we

spoke right it has been it has been it's a lot's gone on good and bad we lost a dear friend so it was kind of a you know an icky icky few weeks but also a celebration we've been talking a lot about our intimacy I've made some changes in terms of I'm in therapy every week I think I found a good somatic experiencing person, I have to meet with them. It took me a while to vet and find them. They're not as easy as I thought it would be. Yeah. It can be hard. Yeah. Cause I'm, you know, I just want to get someone who's pretty good at it, but I did do a daily, join a daily own thing to move trauma out. It's like a course to do little movements and things. Ken and I have been doing stretching together, which we did during COVID.

We'd lay our mats down and do this like stretching thing. And it's really intimate for us, you know, to be close to each other in that space. We've not been great at our homework. True. Please, jump in. Yeah, I watched some of the earlier videos and it's it's actually embarrassing how much of the homework I haven't done. What do you mean? What homework haven't you done? No, I you know, Marla was kind enough to send me the videos that, you know, that are available.

And, you know, we haven't done the 30 second hug thing. We haven't done the 10 or 20 minute touching thing. And, you know, back to basics. And as much as and I think we spent enough time together, the three of us that that, you know, I'm not a basics kind of guy and, you know, all this plan stuff and do this and do that. It's like it just shouldn't be that complicated. But I guess it is. What do you mean when you say you're not a basics kind of guy? Like, you know, do I really need to hug Marla for 30 seconds a day and tell her she's my girl after we've been married for 38 years? Yes, you do.

Well, I'm finding that out. Don't admonish me. I'm admitting that. I'm just saying, yes, you do. I'm not admonishing. I'm just agreeing that you do. So it's, you know, it's a bit humbling, to say the least. Well, I wouldn't say you're not a back-to-basics kind of guy or a guy.

Maybe you're like every other guy and every other person who's in a 30-year relationship where you feel really secure in your connection to one another and your commitment to one another. We all get complacent. We all get a little distracted and a little lazy and caring and feeding for our connection because we know the connection is there and the connection is there. She's not going anywhere, but it's just about what kind of connection you want to create. Right, right. And not to parse things too finely, because I think that's a nowhere path. But so I'm not pinning the word complacent on you. I can assure you there's nothing complacent about my love and attitude and affection and admiration and respect and love and all this other stuff from Marla. But you do forget, I mean, I don't have a better way to articulate it, but you really do forget the building blocks of what the relationship is about. And I don't take it for granted.

Never did, never will. Not with Marla anyway. But you just, you know, you think you're in this advanced level of relationship. And man, you're not because you can never be up here if you don't do this down here all the time. Yeah, those are the foundational things, right? We can keep building and be at a high level, but it's like, you know, the Tower of Pisa. It's a little shaky. It's a little wobbly. It's a little disconnected. And so what we're talking about are those foundational things that build the strong foundation. But I'm still curious because, look, you are not alone. I mean, I wouldn't be in business if you were. Everybody struggles with this, including myself. I have to constantly reboot with my husband like, oh, crap, I have barely looked at him for the past week because I've been so busy and distracted and caught up in my own stuff. And so we all have to constantly put our hands back on the wheel and get the car back on the road a little bit.

But it's also a habit. So I guess I'm curious in general, because the way that I experience you, Ken, is that you have your heart is in absolutely the right place. Your intentions are completely aligned and you aren't a guy who doesn't get shit done. you get shit done lots of shit and so it's not like you don't ever follow through with things but i also have noticed just through our conversations and we've addressed this that when you feel like you're not following through it can create this cycle of for lack of a better term self-flagellation where you're beating up on yourself and then that makes one withdraw more. You would think it would do the opposite. And most of us were raised to believe

that if we get berated enough or if people make us feel bad enough, we'll do the right thing or we'll do the thing we're supposed to do. Guilt and shame are the shittiest motivators on the planet. And I have watched you do that to yourself when you don't follow through on things you say you're going to do with Marla, that is, you know, in our kind of homework context. So I really want to call your attention to that because in the context of this question, I'm about to ask you, which is why you think, and this is not to put shame or blame or guilt on you, because I'm just really curious and it's important to get curious about it. Why you think that you aren't following through on those foundational things yeah that's a good question it's kind of a marla question too

are you throwing marla under the bus now it's always it's always both of you it's always i'm just asking you and then we'll go to her i i know i know i don't know why it's not an answer but the only thing i can't say that i actively think about that so i actively think about it I would check myself and I would frigging do it. Yeah. So you forget. I'd like to think in the course of our daily activity that those feelings, I said it, those feelings and those emotions come through, but there's more to it than that.

And that's why I say, I think some of these things are kind of silly sometimes, because if, you know, if Marla doesn't know that I love her and care for her and wouldn't jump in front of a train for her than you know where she's been for the last 38 years but i know she knows that and i don't know if i'm like most men it's like wasn't that freaking enough yeah and the answer is no it's freaking not and that's what i mean about the basics you know you doesn't matter how advanced your relationship is and how wonderful it is and i never ever take what we have or marla for granted. You still have to go through the basic stuff. I mean, this is what every couple that gets interviewed that they've been married for 50 years and still madly in love. And the

interviewer says, hey, what do you think the secret is? And if you pull up 20 of those interviews and the first thing every single one of them will say before they give their little secrets is It takes a lot of work. There are ups and downs and it takes a lot of work and it does. And so I think it's important to clarify that you can absolutely know. And Marla does know that. Right. And and maybe, you know, in many ways, what you're talking about is kind of a male female thing, but not always. there's knowing something i can know that i live in california in a gorgeous climate in a beautiful surrounding and look at the beautiful mountain and know that it's mine to hike but it's a totally different thing to experience the beautiful mountain and the weather and the hike and to walk it on a regular basis so i can not only know it's there but have the visceral physical, emotional experience of it. And so I'm not saying you guys don't have any of that

in your day-to-day life together. Of course you do, but it's back to that name of this podcast, language of love. It's back to not only knowing Marla knowing, and I'm, we're going to tackle her too. So I'm not just putting you on the spot, Marla, knowing that you adore her and love her. and would, I forget what you said, jump in front of a train for her, but that she is having the daily experience of that in her physical experience with you. And that the physical experience translates also to an emotional experience. So what you're talking about is an intellectual experience of knowing something, but then there's also feeling something and living something, which translates for Marla and for many, many people into some of the things that

have been falling by the wayside. But all right. So let's hear from you, Marla. What's your role in the resistance to the daily expressions of love and connection? Yeah, that's fair. It was a great example, by the way, about the mountains. Cause I've been, I listened to podcasts and I'll send like only the best to Ken. Like I, of course I sent the last one we had with you because I said, you know, we're so privileged to be in this space with you, but it's kind of like going to college and not doing your homework, you know, like, I'll just see how I do. I'll just wing it. I'll bullshit, you know, whatever. So what is my part? I'm kind of running away a little bit. Like I've started to take care of myself better. I'm going to the gym in the morning, the sauna, the steam,

just at the Y, but it feels really good because when I'm in this space with him, I'm waiting for the invitation, not necessarily to the bedroom, just any little love bid invitation. So instead of staying here and getting pissy and frustrated, I've been taking care of myself so that I'm not as edgy because I live in my heart. Ken lives in his head and to mesh that. So I've been challenging him like what are you feeling and he'll i because i i see his frustration his anger his rage or what anger but i don't i don't see the joy and i don't expect him to become this animated goofball by any means i would like to see that i do see it when we're on the road i'd like to see it too but you you you had it in there marla and i had what i thought anyway not to

suggest Marla didn't think so. But I thought that we had an interesting conversation. And I said to Marla, you know, we're getting into it a little bit. And I said, okay, I get it. So what you'd like to see? And I said, I kind of want to see it too. I'm much more demonstrative when things don't go right than I am when things do go right. So you would look at me and never know that I'm a happy guy guarantee you don't seem unhappy you don't i know we say that while it goes no you can't be unhappy if you're happy you're happy if you know i'm happy you know i i didn't maybe that's what you heard i didn't that that's my impression that i that i i don't get to say that i'm not i might not be happy but i'm not unhappy you don't like what i try to play

there's that gray area i think the word i mean i'm saying is engaged like you're either present or not present and i think what you're hearing me say is you're either happy or unhappy what i said is i see your emotions when you're angry or frustrated they elevate they're demonstrative i want that demonstration in a positive way with me right okay that's all i'm saying and i think we're kind of saying the same thing i mean i i can and i think you would agree i'm always 100 present. It might not be the presence that is in front of us, but I'm always somewhere. It might be your presence somewhere else, but not where it's supposed to be. I'm always present. That's like the best ever. I can't. I can't.

I'm always present, just not necessarily in the room where I'm standing. thank you dr laura oh my god oh my god i'm always here i'm happy i'm happy to give my commencement speech i just happen to be present somewhere else thanks for coming what was i talking to you see you later i love that so much that's perfect and listen i'm only i don't i'm laughing just because that put into perfectly marles had to put up with that for 38 No, but you're not alone. And I love how you so definitively said, look, I'm present. I'm always present. It's just that I'm not always present in the world with you. You might get a tattoo. I'm always present. And the other I'm not. So, you know, I'm not always showing like this joyfulness or happiness. It's just kind of not me. But I'm having a perfectly fine time. But you'll know when I'm not having a fine time. Yeah. Okay. So she knows when you're not having a fine time and when you're in a place of anger

or frustration, do you, and by the way, I'm guilty of this too. My husband tells me this all the time and I notice it. He started calling my attention to it. And I noticed that I even just noticed it on this big retreat I was doing now. Granted, I was in a really crazy place because I was feeling lots of things at once, but I can have a tendency. One of my shadows, or I don't want to call them faults because they're just little quirks, but is that I have a tendency to think positive feedback about people or to think an appreciative thought, but not to verbalize it. But I'm very quick to verbalize when I'm annoyed or someone's pissed me off or someone's not doing something right. I have no problem expressing it. But there

are many, many moments throughout the day where I'm like, ah, or I think like, oh, he's really cute or to my husband, or I really appreciate that he just took out the trash or whatever it is. And I don't take the time to, and he called my attention to it just because there had been a string of complaints. And he's like, all I'm hearing from you are complaints. Is there anything that you're content with? And I was like, oh yeah, there are lots of things, but I don't think to say it. So I'm asking you, Kenny, are you mostly feeling neutrality to frustration or are you also feeling joy and playfulness and not expressing it? It's a great question. What does neutrality towards frustration mean exactly? Well, neutrality is that gray area that you talk

about where you're not happy and you're not sad or not happy, not upset. And then upset. Okay. So I'm generally neutral, but lean towards frustration. Is that like here's frustration. Here's neutrality. Okay. So Dr. Laura is asking if you're from here to here. most of the time. I would say I'm generally in the middle. Let's say I start in the middle. I guess most people do. You wake up, right? You're in the middle. So I'll give you a good example, maybe. So first thing I do when I wake up is I get out of bed super quietly, try not to wake Marla. Marla's a silent sleeper, but you never know. So I get dressed and I walk the dog, right? And I enjoy walking the dog. And then when we're done doing her thing, I take her in the backyard,

i would play with a runner and all that good stuff and they'll they'll be times where she might not do her business and you know we could be like walking for friggin ever and you know so now the the presence of not what i'm doing but of what i need to do starts the wheels start to turn okay like mave do what you gotta do i gotta get home i got shit to do start to get frustrated I thought they were a little frustrated. She's a frigging dog. Okay. What normal person would get frustrated at their absolutely amazing dog, by the way? Yeah. And it's not that I don't yell at her. I don't hit her. You're feeling the frustration. But I'm feeling that I go, come on, especially if it's raining, man, because she's a golden and cleaning her off adds a half an hour

to the morning and that just ain't me. So the smoke starts coming out of my ears and all I'm doing is walking my dog. So that might be an example where I start out neutral and then actually start out. I like when Maeve's like laying down. I go, Maeve, let's go. And she jumps up and I put her leash on and I get, you know, I get my little poopy bag and I get my phone and my earphones and all that. We're out to have a nice 15, 20 minutes if it goes right. So you get frustrated, she's taking too long. And then does that frustration bleed into more frustration what do you do with the frustration does it dissipate how do you shift out of it what happens yeah it doesn't ruminate and stay with me you know the whole day long or even more than

a few minutes if that long quite honestly i mean i i think um my bark is certainly worse than my bite i've got an extremely short fuse but at least inside i'm comfortable that it diffuses pretty quickly most of the time there are those times where it doesn't i mean marla caught me for like a 30 minute rant one day about you know what's going on in the house and all that stuff and she was amazing she she just let me get it out of my system but most of the times it's all it begins and it starts and ends like that and what about what about joy how much like not that we're walking around blissed out all the time but how much of the time it sounds like you feel some joy and playfulness when you take the dog and you look forward to that. And that's fun for you.

It's sweet time. It really is. What else do you do in your daily life or in your weekly life that brings you joy? That's a good question, because I the other day Marla suggested and I agreed to seek out some form of one on one therapy. So I had my first meeting with a guy the other day. It was a phone call and it was good enough, but I'll look for somebody. else. But that wasn't about him. It's just the combo didn't work all that well. And I went through a lot of this with him. It came up. And I went through the happiness, the short-temperedness and the frustration, how I'm more demonstrative towards the negative than the positive, et cetera, et cetera. And he asked me the same question. And I said, well, that's interesting.

Let me think about that for a minute. And I gave him two examples. And one was an envelope came for marla in the mail that she was waiting for and we kind of gave up on it because it should have come a month ago and it just never did and so it came in the mail so i came in and i was teasing marla and i had something came in the mail what do you think it is and she said and of course marla guessed it because marla probably knew it was coming in i didn't guess it well no i'm meaning that you're somewhat you know psychic that somehow it was coming and it did and so we're jumping up and down and we're just having a fun time with that we're both smiling and laughing because i know how much it meant it was just you know a kayak pass from all the kayak out of this really

nice area in connecticut and then i said about maddie and our younger daughter she's not formally engaged because they're making it a bit of a you know formal thing but um picked out a ring we met them in the city and all that we might have talked about that on one of our calls and you know not supposed to be saying this is that why you're so no i didn't want him to go any further because it's on the read you know there's some things you might hear no no no they've heard worse than this if they're listening to these five yeah so you know marla's sitting there like any normal person and certainly a woman would just so happy for for maddie and tom super nice guy crying and you know i'm there and you know there's only a couple of chairs so like you know marla's sitting

maddie sitting tom sitting and i'm you know i'm standing and you know this is going on for a while because you know we're trying different ring styles settings flat and i couldn't be happier for maddie if you looked at me you would thought that i was some stranger that walking from the street and was that's not true that's not because that's how i felt no you were like your body was engaged your body was fully engaged i'm glad to hear that you had your arm around maddie you were you were amazing that day well i'm glad to hear that because when i was reflecting on that and trying to explain my reactions to certain things you know good bad and indifferent i had the impression of myself but i mean i couldn't be happier for maddie couldn't be happier for her

and tom's a super nice guy and tom's like on the edge of his seat you know looking at maddie and looking at the guy listening to the differences in the rings and all that and i'm looking at Marlon, I'm looking at Maddie and I'm just thinking, I'm like, and you were thinking that in the moment. No, I wasn't thinking about in the moment, but on reflection, I felt that I was like the consultant more than the participant. And no one made me feel that way. And I didn't feel that way at the time. That was just judgment you had of yourself. But it's a judgment that I had on myself and I go, you know, should I, and you can't, it's hard to be someone you're just not, you know? And I don't know that I want to be someone I'm not, you know, the people close to

me love me for who I am, good, bad, and indifferent. So I don't want to do a personality overhaul, which is why I'm really resistant to these heavy, you know, it's so easy these days for someone to say, you're depressed, you're anxiety, you're this, you're that, here you go, take this, take that. yeah I don't feel any of those things you know I'm just you know I mean Marla see me in my moments of glory I mean I laugh my ass off when it's funny and I smile when I'm happy and when it's things are just moving along the way you kind of know they're gonna move along I'm like okay this is taking a little longer than I thought but it's all good but then I said to the therapist he didn't say this to me by the way which is why I'm not talking to him anymore I said but what was

interesting is i i tried to answer your question but i'm realizing the last time i i you know felt happy not showing it to maddie or showing it tomorrow i didn't really answer his question when was the last time i was happy yeah that's what i was gonna say you're talking about other people's perceptions so what you experienced which was my question so i turned my own light bulb on and um well that doesn't make a bad therapist maybe he was thinking that and was just waiting for you to arrive at that fair enough everybody is as bossy and directive as i am they let you to the conclusion yourself i don't have that kind of patience i'm like listen we i we like so i say i realized i didn't really answer your question i go i'd really have to think about it

And you still haven't answered the question. So that to me is really important homework to start. Forget like, OK, so we talk obviously about your relationship, but this really this will definitely drastically, positively impact your relationship. But this is the directive not for your relationship. It really doesn't matter to me in the context of what I'm going to ask you to do, whether you show your joy or not. But I'm just really curious. And I think this isn't unique to you. I think we all need to do this in our busy lives and in our distracted lives. And especially if we're spending a lot of time in places of frustration and anger, which we all do to differing degrees and to differing amounts. but what is fun for you? What brings you, what activates you? What, I mean, it doesn't have to make you elated and ready to like dance a jig, but what makes you happy? You know, there's a continuum of feelings from guilt and shame to complete bliss and everything in between. So I'm curious, what makes you feel, and you don't have to answer now, but what makes you feel content, excited, pleased, playful, engaged, in flow? What kinds of things? Because once you know that,

it becomes really helpful on two levels. One, you then can start cultivating those experiences more in your own life. And this is good for both of you to do. And second, there are probably things on that list that the two of you could do together. So one of the things you mentioned, Marla, is that I think you said that when you travel, he's often a little more because you're out of the daily grind. That's true for all of us. He's a little more playful. He's a little more engaged. So you can't just wait till you go on a trip to do that. But what is it about the trip? Are you doing activities? Are you taking are you is it because you're taking a break from the stressors of your life? Is it because you're doing something new and exploring something new

together, right? So to get curious about that begins to become a doorway into ways you can connect, ways you can be in your joy. And I do think it would be helpful, whether it's with this therapist or another. To me, Kenny, what would really help you because you are such an in-your-head guy is two things. One is to find someone who does cognitive behavioral therapy in particular. So it would be either CBD, cognitive behavioral therapy, or dialectical behavioral therapy, which those people will be able to like, okay, you're walking the dog. She won't take a poop. You feel yourself elevating and escalating. What's happening in your brain? What's happening in your body? what are strategies you can do, like really practical, cognitive shifts that you can make in the moment to stop the train from picking up too much speed. But then also, and I've said this to you before, I think, Marla, once you start doing the somatic piece, because you've got the

cognitive piece down. For you, it's about the somatic piece, right? So once you start, I want you to do like after once you find a good somatic person it sounds like you're getting close you do that for like i don't know four sessions if you're feeling like this person is good bring kenny in for some sessions because two things will really help your ability to be present in the room not just present wherever you're present is if you can shift out of the anger and frustration that you're needing to not be present in order to contain, because that's what we do, right? We either get stressed or anxious or angry or scared, and then we kind of leave ourselves and leave the moment.

We're somewhere else into that thing we have to do and that thing we have to take care of or that thing that's bothering us, right? So the cognitive piece will really help with that, but it will also help, the somatic piece will also help you begin to learn ways to release anger in a really productive way that allows you to shift. Because I think one of the reasons, and this is true not just for you, but for every single one of us, every feeling comes out the same pipe, metaphorically speaking. Joy, sadness, fear anger and lust those are the main five feelings most everything else is some incarnation of all of those five feelings they all come out the same through the same channel let's just say

and when you are trying really hard let's say to repress your anger which i know you do you try not to blow your top and you're going to learn much more productive ways than blowing your top to release the anger. But when you are repressing that, then you are also repressing the extent to which you can feel joy. And so I find that a lot of people who are mostly neutral, it's because they have clogged up their pipe. They put a lot of blocks there to keep themselves from feeling too much of other stuff. It makes so much sense. So that's my prescription. And also to remember that this is a habit, right? And it takes three weeks of consecutive consistent behavior, whether it's brushing your teeth, working out, whatever it is to build a habit. And so just on a practical

level, Kenny, if you want to work on that foundation, and this is true for you, I don't want, you know, I don't, I get that you want him, Marletta, to be the one to initiate it and whatever, but I want you to do it too. I have to say like our history was that I was always the initiator. And as of late, as of the last few years with my libido tanking, it's not that I don't do it to hold back. I just haven't felt it, which is why I felt like the homework would be good for both of us to get have you been initiating the 30 second hugs and the other things or is it um marla more than me but i think it's about 50 50 yeah yeah i don't think it's 90 10 but i still think marla more than me so i'm trying to pull well i i mean that that i'm just

trying to you know do my my fair share no you're doing more than your fair share we've both fallen off that that wagon a little bit i lost i lost a few weeks with our friend passing away to be honest. I, I kind of went dark a little bit. I get that, but you know, no excuse, no excuse because it would help you just hug each other and cry or whatever. But once you're in the habit, it becomes something that you do naturally. And so put alarms on your phone, like make it, make it just in the short term for three weeks. I have an alarm on my phone. I told Kenny that says it goes off twice a day where's my mind where's my body where's my god because if i don't have those alarms yeah i literally will just keep going yeah like a train and when i mentioned it

i could tell it was like he rolled his eyes at me he just rolled his eyes i didn't i didn't i swear to god i want to see the replay on this just one like this what what You say, don't yell at me. I'm not yelling at you. All right. I'm going to rewind the seconds. Are we into this? I'm going to make sure I take it. I really want to. Okay. Wait a second. How far in are we? I can't tell, but we're definitely to rewind this. Okay. It's okay. I know exactly how far. Let me just ask you, how do you feel when I say set an alarm?

Are you open to that? I'm open to it. Let's just say I haven't been in the past, but yes, I'm open to it. I had an alarming Ken's phone and said, hug your wife. Yeah, that's what I mean. And he did it. You see, you see the body language. He did it.

He did it for like, for like, I know you too well, Kenny, for maybe a few months. And then it just sort of dissipated because it felt contrived to you. It is contrived. It is. Like you put in your phone, work out, right? Or you're an accountant. You lived on a timetable, right? Yeah, I'm trying to get off that.

I understand, but I need to get on that calendar. You're always on the calendar. No, I'm in here. I know that. And this is what I said in the beginning, which is at the beginning about the whole basics. You know, do I really need to read a reminder that I have to hug my wife? through the course of a day don't i do enough and this isn't about a pity party being a martyr or anything like that don't i do enough throughout the course of a day to show how much i love marla

and care for marla do i really have to do a 30 second hug that's my reaction to put it in the in the calendar but in fairness so much of what ken does i'm a communicator he knows what i do every day because I tell him whether he wants to hear it or not. I don't really, Ken's so in his head. There's so many things he does for us that I don't even know till after the fact, maybe months later, weeks later. But it's not just that. It's that what you're saying, Ken, is I, we've talked about this before, languages of love, right? Some people are acts of service. Some people are physical affection. Some people are words of affirmation. Some people are quality time, right? So you are doing so much, probably in acts of service and other things to show her

how much you love her, but you are speaking Chinese. It's not that she doesn't appreciate it. She does. And it's not that she doesn't cherish you. She does. But you're trying to tell someone you love them in a language that doesn't register in their system to the degree that it does for you. So what we're asking you to do is even though you do all kinds of things that in your mind and heart express your love, there are a few things that aren't that hard to do that really make her feel it, feel it in the way she physically needs to feel it. That may make no sense to you because it's not your language of love and it does not compute and it seems contrived and it seems silly with everything else you do but to her it's really meaningful right right now that are you

willing to be contrived to love her in a way that that she can really feel right and it's funny i guess or pathetic or both that and marla has said that many times very softly by the way and somehow coming from a third party, not just because you're Dr. Laura, but when you say it the way you said it. It makes sense. It just, it makes a lot more sense. It's great.

So whatever it takes. Hey, I'm thrilled that you're in our lives, Dr. Laura. And I have to say, I've been noticing, I'm part of a 12-step program in Al-Anon. And I, one of the slogans I've been focusing on is listen and learn. So I've been trying to really listen and observe and not talk so much. So I watch our dog who's adorable. She's a golden retriever.

And Kenny shows his affection to her often. He's always scratching her and like loving her. And I'm like, and I'm watching and I'm like, and Maeve's amazing. Like she's impossible not to love. She doesn't speak. She doesn't disagree. She loves you. She smells good.

adoring yeah always happy she's always she's always though i said monday i said kenny let's just for this week imitate mave she's happy she's joyful she's excited every time we walk in the room her face lights up even if we have to like fake it till we make it right and i watch kenny and then i'm thinking maybe ken's nature i know ken's nature isn't to be affectionate i know that and I know that has to be feels like a big job to him and he has said I don't want to touch you when I'm not in the mood because then you'll feel it and I said well we got to start somewhere but when I watch him with the dog I'm like maybe he's giving what I don't mean this to be rude what little he's got in his tank to the laughing because I can't tell you how many women have

asked me that question really oh my gosh i hear it from women are you kidding me this i feel like this is like a new revelation and i feel like such a jerk dr lauren i feel like he is not affection you get jealous of the dog because he's not physically affectionate in that way i started to this week i'm not gonna say i'm like mother of god he's just like love it yeah he's capable of it he's giving it to the dog and not to me i hear that all the time when the dog goes makeup goes like this yeah do you want me to do that i said i'm gonna make me i don't hunt her down and better she comes up to me you know he looks at me she gives me her paw

I do rub her head a little bit how about this you pretend to be me pretend to be the dog see what happens I told him I do that to my husband when he's ignoring me I walk up to him and climb into

his lap you do all the time I love that on his computer or on his phone and I just come crawling under his arm and onto his lap and put my head on his lap or on it you know i do that all the time i act like a dog who wants affection okay not that i am a dog but sometimes like see what happens if you do no maybe my maybe my pride has gotten in

the way you know maybe my pride and ego has gotten in the way like i'm like i cannot believe i'm jealous of my freaking beautiful dog she's my emotional support animal mine right i get it You know, I always told Marla, I go, Marla, and this might not be fair. I know what you're going to say and I'm going to punch you. What am I going to say? All you have to do is come up and ask for it. That's not what I was going to say. I said, Marla, you know how to get my attention.

You don't have to beg for it. You don't have to ask for it. You know how to get my attention. You're highly seductive. You're a beautiful woman. You're smart. You're intelligent. you're sensual you don't have to do much to get my attention well but i'm not getting your attention

maybe because you're not doing anything to get my attention what do you what should she be doing to get your attention like what example she's just gotta just gotta be marla and like marla said at the beginning she's been kind of keeping herself busy lately just because i've been taking care of myself not keeping myself busy you know fair enough yeah i didn't mean to suggest to you You know, I'm just doing nothing, you know, but you're focusing on yourself. But I thought you also mentioned that in part was sparked by us not being as connected as we typically are. and I think within that distance we've created there's been at least from my observation a lack of Marla doing what Marla does very naturally so it just flows through the room and just being

Marla and that's not an excuse on my part not to be expressing myself I'm just saying I think we've both kind of gone a little bit absolutely it's the two-way it's always a two-way street there's never one of you in every scenario in a relationship you're doing a dance together and so this is just like it's been a while since we spoke your the car's gone a little bit off the road into the cornfields you're going to bring it back and it requires some contrived as you would call it, intentional effort to be more present with each other, in the room with each other, to be more delightful with each other, to seek out each other, and to make it a priority to do those foundational things for each other. Because we've been talking about what makes Marla feel

loved, also her doing what makes you feel loved, which may not come naturally to her, right? It may not be something that comes naturally to her but to do it on a regular basis because what you got you love each other and you want each other to feel that love to feel it physically and emotionally as well as conceptually and intellectually right hey it's dr laura berman i've been a sex love and relationship therapist for over 30 years and the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to

take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the home page the quantum sex free course check it out let me know what you think yeah I think I just when my like I'll say to Kenny what give me some feedback what you know what could I be doing he's like and he always is so complimentary I'm like Kenny that that can't all be true there's got to be something that like trips your trigger or isn't exactly something that the way like i want to improve just what you want more of so what do you ask that what do you want

marla to do more of yeah you're not you don't tell me i just noticed lately but again this last month or so was unusual perhaps you know our friend passed away and and just you know we haven't quite connected a whole lot in the last four or five weeks but i just noticed that you're not you're not in our common space with the same extent it's hard to say i can't think of the word yeah i guess energy sums it up is it she being attentive not attentive to you like not really aware of you or tuned into you is it that she doesn't have a high enough energy like seems happy and engaged enough what would it be yeah i mean i guess you know marlis has got a very special quality about her way of interacting with you, always making you feel that you're the most

important person at the moment. And important can mean a lot of things, most loved, most appreciated, whatever it might be. And I just have felt over the last month or so that I wasn't getting that natural energy that marla has which makes me a little concerned and worried about you know what am i doing right because you always think it must be me doing that tomorrow because that's not marla's natural way so you know and it takes two to tango right we've talked about that a million times so i'm not blaming marla i'm just saying what i've observed or have felt just like i don't think i'm rolling my eyes you rolled your eyes we're gonna say that i did marla might say what are you talking about so you know i could appreciate that marla doesn't feel that way just

like i don't feel certain ways that marla might think i i'm going to bad things although she did say there's a way in which she's in which lately both because she was really in a dark place after you lost your friend and now seeking to take better care of herself at feeling a disconnect with you that she's withdrawing a little bit emotionally and you admitted that so it sounds like he really he feels that when you do yeah but Marla's we've lost a lot of people in our 38 years and Marla has paid a lot of attention to herself over the 38 years this time just feels a little different our friend died suddenly I lost both my brothers suddenly and it just triggered a lot of shadow stuff for me a lot and it went deep and it went dark and I didn't really feel like

Ken had the capacity to really like be in the space with me this time he was very supportive and loving but I got very angry and cranky and reactive and then our house flooded the following day and we lost power and we argued about the generator because I wanted a generator and he didn't he he kept spouting statistics about why we didn't need a generator and now we're then now we're on the ground building water while I'm crying and I'm mad and I'm angry yeah and I made up my mind like I would never be overruled where I felt so strongly about something again that's fair. And I just realized that I've been trying to keep the peace and tiptoeing around just like my home growing up. And I don't want to do that as a grown woman. Yeah. That's why it's so important

for the two of you to keep doing your individual work, because as you do, what you're saying is that you want to show up more fully in your opinions, in your power, in your boundaries than maybe you've been doing. Not that I think you've always done that to an extent, or at least most of your I think the boundaries are new and I think it's I don't think people like them yeah well who would nobody likes someone to hold boundaries no like when you said Ken I want Ken to be like the riverbank and you know to like hold me that is such a visual that I think all the time and I can't I don't have the ability to show up lovey-dovey sensual me because I'm not feeling that. It's not against Ken. I'm just not feeling it. So I have to go find it, whether it's in the

pool at the Y, in the steam bath away from my phone, wherever it is, I need to find it. I don't want to play solitaire instead of talking to Ken. But lately, it's mindless, it's my ADHD. And I realize I'm not engaged because I feel like it's too much work trying to find him in the wilderness right now for me. I feel, I feel filled to capacity emotionally. So it sounds like you're really going through some stuff and, and definitely need to get your own support, right? Cause a lot of this has nothing to do with Ken. And then I also hear you saying there is a way in which you have a story at least, and maybe an experience as well, that he's not either present enough or attuned enough or

comfortable with his own range of emotions for whatever reason. And it's not a criticism of you, Ken. No, it's no criticism. Whatever reason you don't feel like he can hold the depth and breadth. Yeah. Yeah. Like the story I'm telling myself is my God, Marla, I've lived through so much darkness with you. Can we just not this time? Like, that's the story I'm telling myself. Is there anything about his behavior or words or actions that make you feel that way? Or are you projecting?

I'm not sure. Is there an honest answer? Like, you know. Ask Kenny. Kenny, are you, how do you feel? Like, are you, what do you think about her saying she's been in this? I mean, obviously you've been sensing it and aware that she's going through some hard stuff right now. And by the way, even if she's been through this kind of thing many times,

every time we go through it, this is one of the joys of being a woman or a very emotional being, whether you're a woman or not, is that you experience the same thing many different ways throughout due to a number of different variables. So she's saying right now, I feel really deep in my pain and my anger and rage, grief. And I feel a little bit all over the place. And I have a story that Kenny doesn't have room for that and isn't going to be able to be with me fully with that, even if it has nothing to do with him, just me being in my emotive space. Right. There was a lot there. So let's see, make sure I answer it properly. I mean, i'm certainly there to support marla and i don't look at it as one you know one more

death and one more more more thing we're going through i wish i could emote the same way that marla does on some of these things because it would be a lot easier to get in that space you know with her you know on this particular occasion you know i think marla was closer with the friend to pass than I was. And I view his passing very differently. Of course, it was a surprise. I mean, it's always a surprise, right? Death happens in a second. Not always. So what I'm asking you is not to join her in her level of emotion and grief and pain. No one would expect that because everyone experiences these things different, even if you were equally close to the person you lost. the question is more are you able and willing and you don't have to be it doesn't mean it could be

just where you are in your life right now but are you able and willing to be the riverbank to be the container that holds her sits with her lets her pour out all of her grief and rage and fear, doesn't need to fix it or make her not feel what she's feeling, but can contain, be the container to kind of hold her through that and be present with her and have the patience and tolerance, which it really takes a lot of patience and tolerance to sit with someone's what seems to you extreme and not aligned with what you're actually feeling emotion, right? But that's what the riverbank does.

It holds the water so that it's not flowing all over the place and flooding the plains. Yeah, I mean, I think I have, and I think I'll always will be able to do that. I mean, that's what I want to be for Marla. But unlike the riverbank, Marla's intuitiveness is just amazing. and i would never try to fake anything so important with marla right it's hard to be that riverbank when you can't emotionally get there why you love her you don't have to get to the same level of pain all we're saying is can you be in your love and devotion and reverence for her It has nothing to do with the person who died.

It has to do with what she's feeling. It could be that a bird died in your backyard and she felt this much rage and pain. It wouldn't matter, right? But can you just be present with her? I think I have been, but if I haven't been, then I'll learn from this. How else could he be more present? What could he do? Because we need to be specific.

I just love to talk and have conversations. and I feel like in our family, like those people that I've lost, there's, I like to talk about them and I feel like everyone feels like, you know, she's so much, we can't, we can't dare bring them up or she might cry or she might, you know, feel a certain way. And I feel like my emotions are just too big. So I like to talk. I want like a couple of times in the last two weeks, I invited Ken to join me wherever I was going. Like I had an appointment, it was near the water. And I said, do you want to come with me? We could walk by the water. And he had too much to do. And I didn't take it personally. I'm like, okay. You know, so I've sent out all these

little love bids, you know, to come with me, to join me. And I used to take it personally or feel sad. And I, and I did, I don't. What could he do? What could he, let's give him some action items. I mean, I think I was clear. I would love like for him to just, I always say, invite me into your space, like invite me to like, Hey, do you want, instead of saying I could come with you if you want, or you could come with me on a walk with me, like, Hey, come with me, like just to be invitational and in the moment you mean pardon in the moment yes saying you just want to walk with me yeah like I had asked you know Kenny to like creating the romantic space in the bedroom even if nothing's gonna happen in the bedroom light the candles which he does pretty consistently

but like make a playlist or like I've been saying I've been dying to go to see live music because I work my grief out with drums and music and dancing. And this morning I did a workout class, you know, just by myself in the bedroom dancing, you know, and it really felt good just to get some emotions out of my body. But I want, I don't want to do everything by myself and him to do everything by himself. And then we come together for a rushed supper. And then it's like, watch a movie that like, I want more than that. I want intimacy that isn't, I think Ken feels that since we're not having textbook intimacy, that the, that sometimes I feel like he, like when he touches me, I don't know, there's not enough conversation. I just want more conversation. I want emotions,

not, not logic. And that's like me talking Italian and he's talking English. I get that. Yeah. Well, I think what you're saying. So there's a couple of things going on here. One is the sexual piece that for now we're putting on the back burner because we're going back to the foundations. Right. Which happens for all of us. We always have to find foundations with Mac. And I don't think either of you has a libido through the roof right now. So what we want is for the physical and emotional intimacy to build without necessarily leaving. I'm not saying you shouldn't have sex if it happens and if you can and if you want to, but I feel like both of you and you in particular, Marla, are going through a lot right now where your libido is going to be pretty compromised. So put that to the side for a moment. And what I want you guys to think about, so I said the thing about really focusing on what brings you joy, but also what brings you to connection. And that's what I hear you saying, Marla, that what would feel like the riverbank to you right now, and tell me if I'm summarizing this

correctly in terms of action items that Ken can choose to do or not do. One is to provide, to actively and proactively invite you into situations where you can talk and in particular, where you can vent, right? Where you can say, I'm thinking about this person and I'm really And I'm really remembering this, that and the other. And I've been wondering about, you know, just where you can kind of talk and he doesn't have to fix it or find the solution or make it better, but he's just there to listen and to be there with you in whatever you're going through so that you don't have to feel like you're alone.

Now, he may not want to and be interested in, nor should we force him to go do ecstatic dance or anything like that. Oh, gosh, no, I would never make it. I would love to see that. But I think it's more like what kinds of back to like, so there's two things, what, what makes you feel connected? And I think coming up with a list for both of you, like a really, like what kinds of things in the positive, not like I feel connected when you aren't an asshole, but like, I feel

connected when we go on regular walks together, or when you are walking by me and you stop for a hug or a kiss or when you take the time to do X, Y, Z. So what makes you feel loved and connected and what makes you feel supported? And I think this is for both of you, but for you especially, Marla, that I think he needs some really specific, really specific, and all people do, but especially guys, really specific action items. So you gave one, like make time to just let me talk and vent and express without me having to repress it all the time around everyone. You be someone who I don't have to do that with, if you can handle that and if you can hold that, right? But there probably are other things, like maybe it's that he takes a walk with you three

times a week or that you go listen to some live music and whatever it is. But if you can come up with some specific things that would feel supportive to you, right? And maybe for you, Ken, it's specific things that Marla can do or does that make you feel connected to her, right? Like you were saying, she's not really showing up in her Marla energy that she normally has, which obviously is compromised by how she's been feeling lately. So there's that in the middle of it that's going to cause some of the disconnect naturally. But what is it that she could be doing more of that would make you feel connected? That's where I would start in addition to the individual work around for you, Marla, processing and releasing and getting really good at moving

with and surfing. I always call it surfing because that's what it becomes, surfing the waves of pain. as like you get to be a better and better surfer so that it happens it's a much better wave it's a much quicker wave exactly the goal yeah right and for kenny to be working on how to move in a more effective and productive way with the anger and frustration when it comes up how to shift out of that in a way that honors the anger something isn't serving me but then also releases it in a productive way and starts to open those channels in a way where he can experience more joy, more excitement, more of the other stuff when he doesn't have to contain and control the anger as much. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. It does. It does. As I always say to you

guys, you got this. You have such a deep connection. You have so much going for you. it's not like your relationship is in some major crisis. You have 30 years of love between you. You genuinely care about each other and want to be together. This is about the care and feeding of your relationship and taking it to a, not only sustaining that foundation, but taking it to a level that's even more fulfilling. And that's what we're going for. Yeah. I think if you do these things and work on them over the next month and then check back in with me, then either that your sex life will have changed naturally or we can tackle it then that sounds good okay and set those alarms on hugs yeah and connecting okay you can set the time i'll set the

time just try it for three weeks try it for three weeks try being contrived for three weeks i can i thing i can do that and let me know how it goes okay thank you so much all right guys i went to the doctor said i'm crazy for your love roll me a prescription but there is no cure for