Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Parenting in the Darkest Seasons with Kristina Kuzmic

Episode Date: January 25, 2023

How do we manage negativity and misery while still finding things to be grateful for? How do we pass these skills on to our children? Kristina Kuzmic, writer, creator, and mother, is joining me today during today’s Language of Love Conversation to discuss personalized parenting for our children, how we can support them through their mental health struggles, and how to combat insecurity and uncertainty with grace. She is a big believer, as am I, in the power of authenticity and vulnerability in developing close relationships and unity.  She also unpacks her journey through her current profession, her early projects, the impact of her Wednesday Night Dinners, how she fosters gratitude through her “Yeah, but…” game, and her son’s dark season of depression.  In today’s episode, we discuss: Why there is no “one size fits all” model for parenting The subtle ways we label our children Reframing traits that are categorized as “negative” The power of authenticity The impact of focusing on the things you CAN do The “Yeah, but…” Game Why shame is the shittiest motivator  Encouraging our children to prioritize their mental health Parenting children who are struggling  Visit Kristina Kuzmic’s website, check out her book, Hold On, But Don’t Hold Still, and watch her YouTube video with her son to learn more about how they moved through that challenging and scary season.    Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. I'm really excited to introduce you to our guest this episode of Language of Love Sessions,

Christina Kuzmich. She is a comedian and author. Her most recent book, Hold On, But Don't Hold Still, Hope and Humor from a Seriously Flawed Life. We talk about everything from parenting to becoming your authentic self, her honest conversation about her own struggles with depression, parenting children with depression, letting go of perfectionism, letting go of your pessimism and your flaws and embracing your weirdness. All of it is so inspiring. And certainly if you're a parent, but even if you aren't a parent, there's so much wisdom to be found in the light that is Christina Kuzmich. So I'm so excited to share with you. Christina, thank you so much. I'm so excited to talk to you. I'm so excited to share your wisdom

with anyone who doesn't know you, which I'm guessing most people do. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited. I have so many things I want to talk to you about. In your book, Hold On, But Don't Hold Still, you talk about a lot of really important topics that I obviously address here ad nauseum, them, but I don't think you can address them enough. I think the overarching theme of your work on social media, the videos, the content you make, your books, you wrote this in your book at some point, I think it was around parenting, but you said, I'm struggling, you're struggling, and maybe together we can muddle our way through. And I thought that was such a great way to put it

because so much of what you, I think from what you write about, what you're trying to do is not only share the wisdom that you've gained, but also normalize that we're all screwed up, messed up, flawed beings. As you say, we're all self-abusive freaks who need to lower our standards and realize perfection is an illusion, which I think is perfectly put. Yeah. I mean, there's just so much pressure to be a certain type of mom. We feel pressure or parent in general from the way we were raised. Are we supposed to do it exactly like our parents or if we had horrible parents, are we supposed to be completely opposite? And what if I fall into those patterns that my parents fell into? Then we have pressure from the media and every

book out there and then social media. I'm going to tell you, I've met women from all over the world. And the one thing every mom I've talked to has in common is every single one has felt inadequate at times. Every single one has felt like I'm not doing a good job or my kids deserve better, or I have no answers. And so my goal is just like, can we normalize that? Like there's nothing wrong with you. And by the way, you're not inadequate. You're just human. You're human. Exactly. And we're all figuring it out as we go along, because even if you've read every parenting manual under the sun and you've taken every course and all your friends, kids love you and you're the one, you know, and you're some parenting expert, have that first baby.

And all the way through our stuff is our wounds are coming up. Our triggers are getting triggered. You can't possibly prepare for the parenting journey and you can't possibly get through it without screwing up a tremendous amount. And I think that's such an important message. Yeah. I'm sure you feel this way too. I've learned so much about myself that I needed to work on parenting because so much of my ego was getting in the way and my expectations and my insecurities. And then also, you know, I hear from parents who have that one first kid that gives them no problems and figured it out. I wrote in my book how parenting is not like riding a bike.

Just because the first kid might be a bicycle and you're like, I figured this out. I know how to operate this. I got it. Well, the next kid's not going to be a bicycle. The next kid's going to be a tractor. I mean, parenting is just a constant trying to learn how to pivot and trying to learn more. It's none of us are experts and we never will be.

I don't care if you have 17 children, you've been parenting for 50 years. nobody's an expert. No, I think that's part of the point is that just like all relationships, I'm always talking about how when we're having a relationship with someone, and usually I'm talking when I say this about a love relationship, but this is true for friends, for children, for parents, our relationship with our parents, for all relationships. When we're having a relationship with someone, we're actually having a relationship with ourselves through that other person. Not that that other person doesn't matter or isn't important, but all the stuff that comes up, that's really where every relationship is going to force us to face our stuff if we're

being honest about it. And that's where the real grace can be found and the learning. And I really love that all the way through. It's just the common thread that you're setting that model of grace and self-forgiveness and clumsiness and apologizing and figuring it out as best you can as you go along and learning from your mistakes. And one of the things you talk about also, I'm glad you brought up the bicycle thing because I love that. I made a note to bring up that metaphor. But the other one you talk about is this idea of labeling our children. And of course, anyone who's read the parenting books knows you don't say this kid is the smart kid and this kid is the athletic kid. You don't label them that way. But we do label them in these more subtle

ways. Like you were giving the example of your daughter. Oh, she's just shy. And so can you share that story? Because I thought that was a really powerful example. I don't think we always realize how powerful our words are that our children hear. And so she was more quiet by nature. And so we started saying, oh, she's shy, she's shy, she's shy. And our children start to believe the story we tell them about themselves, right? I mean, talk about trauma or childhood crap that we've all had to deal with in therapy. Right. So it comes from the stories that we have been told. I was told I was too loud, too hyper to this. And I thought all those things were negative. Right. For her, she took on this label of this is who I am. So I will be quiet. I won't

speak up. She believed that was who she was. Right. And then the minute I realized what I was doing and I stopped doing that, all of a sudden she's auditioning for the school play. And it's like what happened to my quote-unquote shy kid yes I gave her the character she was gonna play and she played it which is so sad we've all done that you know we and we do with the best intentions we think we're protecting her explaining or clearing the road for him ahead of them you know lest you make them uncomfortable or so that there's no misinterpretations or so they're they're not misinterpreted and we accidentally put them in a box you alluded to this you know what you were taught were your flaws growing up. Too much, too loud, talk too much. You write about in the book

that what if all the traits, and I believe this so completely, right? That what if all the traits we've been told are negative are actually our greatest strengths? It's fun. I joke now that all the labels that were put on me, and they were put on as negative by adults in my life. And I'm like, I make a living now. Exactly. It's just about learning to focus those, right? And with my daughter, for example, she is quieter, but I realized it's not that she's shy. She just takes her time to think things through. She's a senior now who was organized a walkout of her school to protest gun violence. And she's going to go study human rights next year and call. And I mean, I don't know what would have happened if I kept that label on her. Would she have

stood up for things she believes and organized these protests and done all this stuff? So we have to be really careful, which is annoying because parenting is already hard. And yeah. And now having to put that lens over, but it really speaks to like, she's loud, but in a quiet way, that's really powerful. That's a really powerful example. You talk in one of the chapters of your book, and I think this was around the, you know, embracing your particular quirks, embracing who you are.

I related to this so much because I had a very similar journey to you in some of my television journey. You were talking about a television show you were developing and my stomach was clenching when I was reading it. And this is not to throw like I love Oprah as much as you do. She changed my life personally and professionally. And she's a beautiful human being. And it wasn't about her, but you were sharing your journey as a result of being chosen. I forget what the competition, you know, it was a Mark Burnett show where you were chosen as like the next big thing or something. And that you were launching this cooking television show and you kept saying, Hey, let's have an episode where I burn dinner. And we all, you know, cause your thing once again was to try to teach people how to cook, but also normalize that it doesn't have to be perfect. And to get that message out that we've been talking about and they kept shutting

that down. And it ended up resulting in this product, in this show that was not at all authentic to who you were and had this idealized perfect kitchen. And you were going and saving these women who were making these mistakes, which is kind of the opposite of who you are. And the whole thing didn't get renewed. And exactly the same thing happened to me in my realm because I kept saying I'd be jumping because they had me go. I was going to people's homes, couples to help them with their relationships. I would go into the first day, which of course I've never done in real life, but it was kind of cool. I would go into their home and like observe their lives and see how they lived. And then I would try to engage with them. And I just went with it because I'm a

dork weirdo as well. Right. And so I remember the perfect example was, and this is what I was thinking about when I read your description, I was with this couple that was really tight and tents and they were having a hard time opening up. And I said, what do you do to like really loosen up together? And they said, well, sometimes we jump on the bed. I was like, let's jump on the bed. And we started jumping on the bed together. When I saw the cuts, I was like, why isn't that scene? And they're like, well, a therapist wouldn't jump on the bed with her clients. I'm like, okay, but I'm a therapist who just jumped on the bed with her clients. So what do you mean? And the same thing happened that the show was not compelling because it

didn't have the truth of me in it. It wasn't authentic. Yeah. I mean, I just remember sitting there and being like, I think we need me cooking while my kids are throwing a tantrum in the background. Yeah. Their 13th snack of the day while I'm literally slaving over dinner. And I just kept like giving him these examples because I years, not that many years before I actually was divorced on food stamps. I couldn't afford an apartment just for my kids. So we rented a room. I shared the room with them. I couldn't even put a bed. I slept on the floor for a while.

And so my goal always has been, I want to be for others what I needed when I was at my last. And I think what a lot of TV producers miss is that people want to see authenticity and they're smart enough to read when it's not authentic. Yes. They're sick of everybody being perfect. And I'll never live up to that. Like people are tired of that.

And I wanted a struggling mom who might be sleeping on the floor to turn on the TV and go, oh my gosh, her kids throw a tantrum too. She's struggling too. She's got mascara from last night still on her face. While she's trying to make breakfast. Yeah. And same with you. Like how powerful would it have been for people who are intimidated by therapists or therapists will judge them to see you jumping on a bed with your, like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I, and that happens so many times. And I kept hearing, no, a therapist wouldn't do that. And I was like, But like you, and you put it more eloquently than I'm going to now, you second guessed yourself. These are the experts. They know what they're doing. They know how to do this. Who am I? I'm

just lucky to be at the table. I'm lucky to have this show. I want to be cooperative. You just kind of let it. And to an extent, it's true because even in my case, it's not like I could force. I mean, I could have thrown a tantrum every step of the way and somehow tried to force them to fold this stuff in, but it probably still wouldn't have worked. I'm not sure it even could have been different for you either with the production company you were working with. It wasn't just that you weren't fighting for your truth. You also have to have that partner in getting your message out who buys into your truth and who is aligned with your truth. Now, obviously, you're in a perfect position to do that in your life. You're producing your

own stuff. I know. I have so much freedom now. It's great. But I think it's a really important lesson for all of us that, you know, sometimes you can't get your voice heard, but it's also in those times to recognize that that it isn't all, it is about you, but it is also about, I think, having a partner who listens and is like hearing you. Yeah. And also a good reminder for anyone out there, whether you're trying to be in the public eye or you're just posting stuff privately for your friends. The effort to make me perfect in a perfect kitchen with the perfect family flopped. Yeah. Yes. That's a really good reminder. Perfection does not resonate with people, people. Yes. Post your dirty sink full of dishes. Don't do, you know, three layers of makeup before

you do your video where you're going to share something vulnerable. Show people your real side. I mean, one of my first videos ever made was me showing my stretch marks off and what, and I was like, that's real. It's real. Yes. Yes, it is real. And I 100% agree with you. That has been, I mean, it's hard for me not to, like my therapist will always say to me, how about you run it through all of your chakras before it comes out of your mouth? You know, I'm not very good at not being authentic, but it has been really liberating even in my own life as someone who kind of came up professionally in that you have to look a certain way. You have to have your hair and makeup done to go on camera, you know, to just be snotting and crying or screaming or makeup less or whatever

in front of people, not only is liberating to me, but, and I know you find the same thing is, is so gratifying when you see how much permission it gives others to be their authentic self too. And that's what we all need to do for each other. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you can tell, but I have a cold sore today and I actually had somebody ask me like, or are you going to postpone? Cause I think they're going to, you know, I think the podcast when we film, like it's a cold sore, like it's real life. One in four people have them at least and 80% of people who have cold sores don't even know that's what they are, you know? So amen to your cold sores and embracing them. I can't even see it, but I don't even need

lip injections. They look gorgeous. So you mentioned your, that phase, the period you went through and things were really tough and how that's in the back of your mind as you think about who you're speaking to and your audience, like who you needed back then. And you share a lot in the book about how you've gone through this divorce, you were on food stamps, you were barely making ends meet. And all of the lessons, there was a lot of lessons that you share that grew out of that from being willing to receive help to claiming your power, all sorts of things. But one of the things that I think really stood out to me was, and this is something that I think has come up in some of your parenting advice too, is the big shift for you and what was really a deep

depression and hopelessness was when you decided to do for others, right? You write that you'd been convinced that I had nothing to give, yet when I gave the little I had, the results were something so much bigger than I ever expected. And that was when you started what, what was these Wednesday night dinners? Yeah. So I got to a point where I was, you know, stern of suicidal thoughts. I just was so convinced that I was worthless and my children deserve better and feelings that I have found once I opened up about a lot of parents have felt at times they just came about saying them out loud. And again, I had no money. So I just was distraught and I felt like I was so obsessed with my self-pity. Maybe I need to

think outside myself. I'm going to go volunteer. Maybe that'll help distract me from my own, how much my life sucks. I got rejected from the hospital. I went to apply to volunteer and soup kitchens and homeless shelters, basically because I couldn't afford to have a babysitter. Right. You had to take your kids with you. And nobody wants a two and three-year-old volunteering because they'll probably burn the place down. Let's be honest. And so I just one night had this thought of like, okay, you know, when I feel like I have nothing, you know, when I feel completely worthless, is there one tiny thing I'm confident in?

And the only thing I come up with is that I can cook a great meal on the tiniest budget. And then of course, normal human thoughts. So what, Christina, that doesn't make you special. Most people know how to cook. Thankfully, that was like one of the first times I was like, nope, not gonna listen to all that. Impulsively sent an email to all my contacts in my area.

And I said, every Wednesday night, I'm gonna feed people. So if you know someone who's struggling financially, or maybe it's someone who has a ton of money, they're just new to town and wanna meet somebody. way. Yeah. College kid who still kept her food. I don't care what the need is. As long as you know them, bring them over. And so that Wednesday I went to the nine, nine cents store, which I was very familiar with. And I, I literally just bought pasta and sauce. There was no side dishes served. I made homemade bread. Cause that takes pennies to make salad. There was no fruit. There was no

dessert, nothing fancy. I mean, most people would be embarrassed to like invite a bunch of people and just serve pasta, but I knew I could like zhuzh it up with spices and blah, blah. And long story short, that first Wednesday, I kept these going for a year, but that first Wednesday I fed over 30 people. I still get to amazing apartment that I shared with my roommate was so small that people were standing outside with their plates. And that was such a turning point for me because a I'm standing there, the girl who literally is embarrassed to pull her food stamps card at the grocery store. Everybody's staring at people were just, you know, I even got judgmental comments at times and my friends were kind of pitting and worried about me. Everybody's kind of looking

down on me. And now these people are thankful to me. Like I gave them something. It made me realize that one of my mistakes, and I still use this lesson now, is that I was focusing on the list of things I couldn't do and didn't have. And by the way, I don't care who you are. I don't care if you're Beyonce. The list of things you don't have and can't do will always be longer. What can you do to focus on? But when I focused on that tiny, very short list that seemed like nothing, cooking, not special. And something with that, whoa. I mean, that was a turning point for me. All of a sudden I was like, I'm not worthless. I have something to offer. You have something to offer. And the other thing you wrote about, which is related to like not

focusing on all the things you can't do is that you didn't focus on, and you write about this, it's not focusing on the things, even in that small thing you're doing. Cause a lot of people get stuck here too, is the things that couldn't be on the list to get that thing done, right? Like you didn't have enough money to go get vegetables or salad ingredients. So, you know, you could make up a million reasons why doing that simple meal wasn't enough. And I love how you say that, like, as time passed, people started donating ingredients or bringing, you know, it became almost like a potluck thing where people would bring side

dishes or salads. And you started that, you know, and there's no better way. I always say this when people are in heartbreak or breakup or grief or depression. one of the best ways to move beyond that is to do something for someone else. Yes. I mean, there's nothing better. Yeah, I write in the book,

don't allow the few things that are completely out of your control to control you completely. And I think we humans naturally go there. We just naturally, for some reason, think about all the things that are bad and wrong and negative. And we just let that become our whole world

instead of going, what is the one positive thing I can do right now, regardless of how small, that will move me in a good direction. Yeah, that gratitude and that positive. And that's a perfect segue into the other thing I wanted to ask you about, because what you're talking about is that negativity bias.

I just made a video about this, that we all, I think, you know, our brains are wired. That's partly our fight flight instinct. It's partly how we're wired. It's partly how we're conditioned. But even on a social media, you can get a million positive comments and that one negative comment

is the one you can't get out of your mind. And we will fixate on that. I know you write about that. I love the game that you developed. Well, two things I want to ask you about with regard to gratitude. One is the game you developed with your kids, the yeah, but game, which was really cute and a really good idea and a very powerful lesson to integrate into their lives. And the other is, which I thought was such a powerful and heart-wrenching story about when you lost your baby. You had two children from a previous marriage. This was the first baby that you were having with your now husband. And after that loss and having to go through the DNC

and going through the tragedy of realizing that the baby was no more, you still had, because you had committed to coming up with one thing to be grateful for a day, you still managed to do it on that day, which I think speaks volumes. So I call myself a recovering pessimist because I don't know, I grew up in Croatia and sometimes people say those countries in the Eastern European area tend to be more, you know, focused on the negative. I don't know if it's that or what it is. So I'm just naturally a negative person. So I've been told like write a gratitude journal about that. And it just wasn't really working for me. And then this one year I came up with the idea, okay, instead of just

writing something I'm grateful for every single night, I'm going to write one good thing that happened that day. And that's be specific. So it can't just be, I'm grateful for my family and my health and my home, which was always like the things I went to, right? Something good that happened that day. And then I had the DNC. I was actually pregnant with twins, lost one, then two weeks later, lost the other and had to have the DNC. And I was just devastated. And I remember coming back, I mean, had this surgery and I'm still bleeding and I'm distraught. And I have to tell my children who are so excited. I mean, so excited. They already like created their own story of what it was going to be like to have this baby. And they were going

to share their toys and also having to tell these children that this is no more. And I'm laying in bed and my husband tucks me in and I grabbed my phone where in my notes sections, where I was writing one good thing that happened each day. And I was like, I'm not doing this today. This is so dumb. This is stupid. Today was awful. Physically, emotionally, my children are crying in the other room. My husband's sister, I hated everything about today. There was not one good thing, but I was committed to doing it. And the only thing I come up with, and I still get to your head when I talk about it, I wrote down the way my husband tucked me in bed when he brought me back from the hospital made me feel so loved. And it's something that if I hadn't been doing

that, I would have fallen asleep that night going, everything sucks. I hate everything. Today was awful. I'm in pain. Instead, I could feel the pain because I'm never against, like, don't suppress feelings. I could feel that pain, but I could also allow myself at the same time to feel I am loved. And what a beautiful way for me to end that day. So that was so, such a powerful exercise. That's a beautiful one. And you do that too. I mean, a much less intense way, but a beautiful way with your children, this yeah, but game, but game to counteract that negativity bias or when they're upset about things or ruminating on things or whatever. Can you explain that? Yeah. So my oldest, he's 19 now, but even from

when he was like three or four, I noticed I'm like, oh, he's a pessimist like me. We got to put him in recovery too. And so again, I'm never about suppressing feelings. And so I came up with this game where I'd say, okay, tell me what you're mad about. Tell me what you're sad about. Just let it all out. Let it all out. And then I would say, yeah, but, and when I said, yeah, but they had to find something positive that happened day to day. So the example I gave in the book is he was upset. They lost their soccer game and you know, everything was wrong and blah, blah. And then I let him get it all out. And I said, yeah, but, and he said, but we have another game next Saturday and I love my coach and I love my team. And again, it was just a way to end it on a

positive note. One of the analogies I use in the book, which I think about all the time, because again, I still struggle with being negative. It's kind of like marinating chicken. I mean, the marinade is your misery, everything you're miserable about, and you're the piece of meat and let yourself get in that marinade, like feel everything. Don't suppress feelings because you, you know, you can't heal it because let that marinade season and everything. But if we leave that chicken in the marinade for days or weeks or years, it's going to become gelatinous poison, right? So get in that marinade, but then get yourself out, wipe yourself off and go on with your life and go into the oven. That's been a good balance for me because I thought it had to

be an extreme. I thought if I was going to be a positive person, I shouldn't allow myself to feel what I feel. I'm a good. And then I realized how toxic and unhealthy that was. And I was just basically holding all this stuff inside and it made me feel stuck. And so now it's like, you know, even when bad things happen, I'm like, okay, get in that marinade, Christina, and get, then it's for the yeah, but get yourself out. Yeah. I think that's so powerful because there is a toxic positivity is a real thing and it's just bypassing. It's not like the feelings go away. They just get repressed and your body and your subconscious just get the message. Oh, you can't really feel your feelings. You can't really be with this. So then it comes out in other ways. And I also like

about the way that you're describing it, that it's what, you know, yeah, but is that version of it is very different than a, yeah, but my soccer team lost. I'm really upset about that. Yeah. But children in other countries don't even have soccer balls, right? Like other people have it worse than me. So I shouldn't be upset. That's very different than what you're talking about. And I don't like that also, because now we're adding guilt to children. Not only do I feel a negative feeling, now I'm adding guilt to feeling negative feelings. So now I'm speaking bad of a person. You know, it's like we humans tend to, something is heavy in life.

And then we tend to pile on by the way we treat ourselves throughout it and make it even heavier instead of realizing this is heavy, but I don't need to add weight to it. No, it's already heavy enough. Yes. Yeah, that's beautiful. Cool. So I want to talk a little bit more about the parenting thing. We've talked about the yeah, but strategy and not labeling your children. You talk in the book about a couple of things that I think are really valuable about praise and failure. How you have learned that praising

them for the small things is really important because it motivates them to go on to the big things. Like, and I loved how you described it because it really resonated with me. We have this default, many parents, you know, I do at least when they were younger, you know, I certainly praised them a lot, but I was also like almost parenting against something. Like I didn't want them to be selfish. I didn't want them to be. So it was almost like I was looking for evidence for that and trying to correct that. And it took me a while to learn this as a parent, rather than like praising them for when they shared or when they shared making a celebration out of that, or when they did something thoughtful, really praising them for that versus like stepping in

or in a gentle, kind way, but essentially guilting them or directing them versus, you know, it's just that carrot or stick. My stick was not a harsh stick, but as we've been talking about, those very subtle sticks are just as powerful, sometimes more so. Yeah. And for me, at least, I think this is true for a lot of parents. It comes from fear, right? I don't want my child to be spoiled and I don't want my child to be rude and I don't want them to be a bully and I don't want them to be not successful, you know, and be lazy. And so everything comes from fear and that's something I still struggle with, but I have gotten better at as just going, whoa, am I making this decision? Am I supposed to communicate to my child

out of fear or out of love. When my oldest, we had taken away a smartphone and he was trying to earn it back. And so I said, okay, we already talked about what you need to do. I'm going to put it in writing because I find with him, it's easiest to put in writing. And he was, I don't know how old he was, 17 or whatever. And so I typed out a list of here, all the things that you need to do in order to earn this. And I'm walking over to his room with it. And right before I opened his door, it hit me. I'm like, Nope, you know, better Christina. I went back and I, to the same page added an even longer list of everything you're already doing. The way he received that was so different than any other thing I've ever, you know, we had talked about, or you need to do

this because the kid is obviously going to see that list of here, all the ways I'm failing. I'm not good enough. But the minute I made an even longer list of you're really kind to your brother yesterday. I love, and it was little things that parents would, a lot of parents. And I, in my early motherhood, I've been like, that's just an expectation. I don't need to see that. Oh my gosh. Like I always say, feeling like a loser has never helped anyone thrive in life. The minute you encourage someone, the minute you point out their strengths, they want to live up to that. They want to do good. It made such a difference. And that kid earned back his smartphone so quickly. Oh yeah. I always say shame is the shittiest motivator. I mean, it's the same thing.

and we do because so many of us were parented with shame. I remember early in our parenting, my husband, having this conversation with my husband, who was really like my, because my default was not to like, you know, it was much more, I'm much more passive aggressive in my shame, or I would have probably been the parent that made the list without thinking to make the list of all the things they're doing right. He sort of called me on it. And I said, well, my parents, I remember this so well, our kids were really small. Now the youngest is 17. I said, you know, my parents parented me like this and I turned out fine. He's like, really?

You know, he goes, you may be highly accomplished, but are you filled with anxiety? Do you struggle with self-shame and self-criticism? Like, what is it that you read? I was like, oh, my God, you're right. And I think it's so important. And this is inherent in everything that you teach and share is that like, what is success? What is the end game? And that became my mantra in parenting, like because all my kids and we're going to get into the mental health issues.

All three of my kids have struggled with mental health issues, have acted out, had ADHD or other learning issues. And so I just always had to play a really long game. Like what's more important that he cleans up the room, his room right now, or that he finishes it? like I had to like make these choices about what battles I was going to fight or what things I was going to. And what I kept using as my litmus is like, what is success? And it was, and my definition of success is 100% different than the definition I was raised with. Me too. That's been so big in our family. So I know you said we'll get into it, but my oldest son has struggled with mental health a lot. And he did not graduate high school with this class

because he had been hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital. He had to go to residential treatment centers. I mean, he was just suicidal, really suicidal for a few years. And I remember running into this other mom at Trader Joe's and she was like, and our kids have been friends when they were younger and I haven't seen her in years. She was like, oh my gosh, what are you doing for Luca's graduation? Are you guys having a party? Are you this? And the little Christina, the way I was raised, wanted so badly to just say, oh, we haven't figured it out yet. But again, same as you like in this is not unsuccessful that my child isn't graduating right now it is successful that he was able to prioritize his mental health and he's here and so I just flat out said he's not

graduating he was working on his mental health and it was so freeing to be that authentic and not sugar-coated or feel like I had to explain it or and then five months later he graduated and I threw him a surprise graduation ceremony I ordered him the cap and gown we did this whole thing at our house. But that was a big conversation I had with him is don't for one second, think that you failed in some way, or you're not successful because you didn't graduate with your class successful because you prioritize your mental health. And I wish that that was something that I was told from a young age. Me too. Me too. I mean, I went through the same thing with my oldest was started to struggle in high school, became suicidal, ended up having to go inpatient,

same thing for a little bit. And then he hung on and was doing okay. Then he went to college and there were many times where I was really, really scared. And I was begging him at this point, he's over 18. It's not like I can put him somewhere, right? He had to want to and consent to and he just wouldn't. I was like, it's okay. You can take some gap time. You can graduate. No, no, no. I'm going to get through this. But he got, and I was so proud of him. He got through, I didn't need to be proud of him for getting through because it would have been fine if he didn't. What I was proud about is upon graduation, he came to me and he's like, okay, now I'm ready. And he went into intensive treatment and same thing happened. All my mom friends, especially

the ones who knew him in high school, who were, I wasn't friends with his college friends, moms, really, but his high school friends I knew and even other mothers I knew who, you know, had younger, oh, what's, what's he doing now, now that he's graduating, where he's working? I didn't say, oh, he's figuring it out. He's exploring his options. I was like, he's impatient at a place, really committing. He white knuckled it through his college. I can't believe he did it. And I'm so proud of him because now he's really committing to his mental health. And I was so proud of him for doing that. And I made that so clear. And what I've noticed, and this is also in part his personality, he is so open about it with people. I mean, he doesn't introduce himself as like,

but you know, now he's 26. And I say this to him all the time. Once again, back to that thing of success, he sometimes starts to beat up on himself because, you know, for after he went through this, he said, look, I haven't been happy for so much of my life. I don't know what I want to do next other than be happy. I'm like, okay, be happy. What will make you happy? Okay. Rock climbing will make me happy. All right. Rock climb. I don't care. Just like try to pay the bills. And he has he works at a rock climbing gym and he pays the bills and he takes care of himself and he leads kids on the Boy Scouts who come and do the overnights at the rock climbing gym. And he's discovered that he actually as someone who thought he hated kids, he really likes working with kids because he relates to the ones that are struggling and wishes that he had someone that struggled. And so the other night I was at this big young president's organization event where everybody

is extremely high achieving and their kids are all at Harvard and blah, blah, blah. And they're all talking about their kids and they're like, oh, how old are your kids? I tell, oh, the older, what is your oldest doing now? I'm like, he's working at a rock climbing gym. Like, you know, I don't have any, like, yeah, that's it. And I think we give up when we can claim that it's, it automatically models that for them as well. And then you don't even know how many other lives will be affected by modeling that, right?

Because now he's with these kids who might open up to him that they're struggling and he's like, yeah, you're normal. There's nothing wrong with you. Prioritize your mental. Now that kid is going to tell their, do you know what I mean? Like it's amazing. But same with my son. My son has no shame.

He said like, if anybody judges me, that's on them. Like I've struggled with depression. I struggle with anxiety. This is a part of my story. he always says like, I didn't do anything wrong. I feel shame. I should feel shame if I hurt someone purposely. I don't feel any shame. And I just love that because he's so young still. I'm hoping that that's the direction we're finally moving in. As most of you know, for the past several years, I've been on a pretty intense grief journey and

it's been a path of healing. I've shared lots of that healing with you and lots of the healing resources that I found. And I am so thrilled to announce that I am doing my first ever retreat for grieving mamas. So if you or someone you love is a mama who has lost a child in any way, at any stage, at any age, I would love for you to come join me at 1440 Multiversity in the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, California for four amazing days of beautiful, uplifting community and healing. We've got David Kessler. We've got Paul Selig. We've got Catherine Woodward Thomas. We've got me. We've got body work. We've got organic food, beautiful rooms. Go to 1440.org. Check it out. It's right there on the homepage. I really hope you can join us.

I'm sure it is, especially with parents that are supporting him so much. And so, you know, let's just talk about this for a minute because, well, first of all, all my kids have struggled with anxiety. They all have managed it differently. The oldest one just went all the way into nature and intellect and overachieving. The youngest just doesn't sit still for a minute and doesn't like to think and falls asleep with the lights on. He passes out rather than goes to bed. And my middle one, as you may know, was murdered a year and a half ago from fentanyl poisoning. He was struggling emotionally and socially during the pandemic. But even before the pandemic, and I was reading this in some of what you were writing, too.

I think the same was true for your oldest son. He was really bullied. He was really socially isolated and really bullied. It actually got better during the pandemic because he didn't feel like, these are my words, not his. But to me, it was like he was going into a war zone every day. You know, that's what it feels like to a kid when you're going into an environment where no one accepts you, everybody teases you, everybody marginalizes you. He was eating lunch with the coaches, the football coaches every day so that he wouldn't be heckled or teased.

And we had been trying, you know, I've been saying, we need new friends for you. We need to find you a community. And then the pandemic hit and it actually got better because now he wasn't there and he could work remotely. but he also had been hanging out with, of course, the only kids that would accept him were the kids who did drugs. And then they were saying, well, you can't hang out with us

unless you smoke pot with us because then you're a narc. And he would say that, you know, he knew that that was like not allowed and we had caught him once experimenting with marijuana and came down really hard on him. And so he was like, I need you to tell me it's okay. This is the only way I can have friends.

I'm like, I can't. I wanted to tell him it was okay so badly because I knew how badly he needed friends. I was like, I wish I could, but I cannot tell you that it's okay to use drugs so that these kids accept you. We need to find you new friends. So that is how we went into the pandemic. And then a drug dealer got in touch with him on Snapchat and he wanted to impress this girl that he was talking to who was going to come over and thank God I didn't let her because he had a big test that he hadn't studied

for or something the next day. He was trying to impress her with these drugs he got from a dealer who reached out to him. And when I said, no, she couldn't come, he thought, all right, I'm just going to try this and show off and tell her that I took them and they killed him. So I think the mental health thing, the bullying thing for all of them has been an issue. Obviously, I do think that was a big part of the dominoes that fell. Not that every kid, not every kid, but almost every kid, including myself, experimented a little bit. Now experimenting will kill you in a way. It's a very different landscape. But I just am wondering, because I know your next book is about parenting kids with real mental health issues. And this is epidemic. These kids are not understood by

their teachers. They are not understood by their communities. They are certainly not understood by their peers. I mean, I remember my middle guy saying to me, like, I know, mom, I know that adults adore me. I know that people older than me get me. I know that when I go to college, it'll be fine and I will find my people. But it's really freaking hard right now. And so I know you've been taking a deep dive into the parenting mental health struggles arena. So I'd love for you to share with us because I know I'm not alone. I mean, I hear from parents every day about their kids struggling. I got to tell you, first of all, when I heard what happened to your son, but I think it was like within days of it happening, whenever it broke in the news,

I cannot tell you how hard I saw. I could cry right now. I'm just talking about it, but I sobbed so hard because obviously this is the first time I've met you. I could almost feel the fears and all that. I mean, I was like living it in a different way, right? Because my son was stealing pills and getting drugs wherever he could. And that was my biggest fear. I'm like, obviously he could overdose and whatever, but I knew that people were lacing things. Well, the reason I knew is there were two girls at his school in his sophomore year who were given some pot and then ended up the, all of a sudden we're getting emails as parents, there's ambulance at the school, these two girls overdose, they both survived thankfully. But,

and I think it was also their first time trying it. That's the thing. So anyway, I, my heart just, I just can't, it just breaks for you and for every family. And there's so many families now it's like almost 300 a day or dying from poisoning. And like you said, he was bullied when he was younger, started struggling around six, seven, maybe seventh grade actually. And then eventually it got to the point where, and again, he's my first, I was raised very differently. I was spanked, I don't spank. It was all about like rules and just very different way of parenting than I parent. And so the first way his depression showed up was actually rebellion. And I had experienced depression after my divorce,

but my depression was not wanting to go to bed. Right. Yes. Punching walls, destroying things, calling me an effing bitch in my face. And I was like, what happened? Like, this is not my kid. And I know what the problem is. This is teenage hormones. We're going to nip this in the butt. We're just going to lay consequences at him because I didn't realize the depression can show up as such rage and anger. I was actually very ignorant about a lot of things. Most of us are. Yeah. And so just having to learn. And so I got him a therapist and then the therapist was like, I'm going to read you the symptoms of depression. And I want you to think about whether this is something Luca has. And the therapist already had an idea that he had it.

And Luca checked off every single thing, except the last one he read is suicidal thoughts. So right after that session, I went and I asked Luca and he flat out admitted that he has thought about hurting him. And it was just such a shock to me as a parent. Anyway, it led down a very long road of trying to get him the right medication because medication, psychiatric medication is very complicated and you know, it doesn't work right away and you have to find the right fit for your body chemistry and blah, blah, blah. He started self-medicating and that was the only time that he felt like he could live. At one point he said to me, he was sobbing and he said, mom, if the only thing keeping you from killing yourself was doing drugs, would you do drugs?

And I had to be honest with him. I said, yes, but I have to believe there's another way. It was just this long struggle. And then he's doing well now. Whenever I say that, I want to be really honest. He struggles. He has very bad days, but he's been almost three years sober. He's not even sure he's an addict or not. He's like, I think I was just self-medicating. Maybe I can have a beer with a friend. I don't want to right now, but he's doing really well. And a lot of parents can relate to this. When he was really suicidal, I would literally go in his room multiple times during the night

and I would check if he was breathing the same way after, you know, you have your first newborn and you put your face close to theirs because they just look so still. I used to do this with my 15, 16, 17 year old. Now we're at a point, you know, when my, when our friends are like, how's Luca doing? I'm like, I don't check if he's breathing every, you know, hour anymore. He's choosing to live. It was a long road. So that's the next book.

I just finished writing it. It's coming out next year and it's called I Can Fix This and Other Lies I've Told Myself. That's relatable. It's about mental health, but so much of it really is about me and realizing how little control I have, which really sucks to have to realize and realizing paying attention to when your child's behavior requires a consequence and when it requires help and learning all the things I was ignorant about and how it affects, how it affected my marriage and my other kids. Yes. I talk about how my daughter sunk into a depression time and my

youngest was traumatized because he saw, we have to call the cops on my son at one point. And my son, my youngest son witnessed that anyway, it's a lot, but I am really proud of it. He's not on social media and he's not one to be in the public eye, but after a second residential center, he said what helped him the most was hearing from other kids. So he decided to make a video with me and it's this 18 minute conversation. Anybody can find it on Facebook or YouTube. I think if you just search my name and search, um, son opens up about mental health and he is so open about everything. I mean, he didn't want to pre-plan this video. He didn't tell me what questions I was going to ask. He's like, let's just have a conversation. Nothing's off the table.

and I'm really proud of him. I'm hoping that that generation is going to change the way we talk about mental health. I know it better because they're all struggling. It's like this, their generation seems to be holding the anxiety of all the generations before and the collective anxiety. I mean, I don't know a kid right now and I know lots of kids who isn't struggling in some ways. And as a parent, we don't have a forum for talking about it. There's this veneer that I know you and I are both working against of like, my kids are perfect. Everything's great in my house. So everybody feels like they're the only one. And so there's suffering and silence. And I also think one of the biggest lessons I've learned as a mom, which I honestly am not sure I learned until after

Sammy died, which is kind of weird and an oxymoron when you hear what I learned. But I had always subscribed to that adage or that phrase, like you're only as happy, a mother is only as happy as her least happy child, because that is how I had always felt. I would joke with my husband. It was like a butterfly had landed on me when all three were doing okay, were like feeling good. there were no crises. I was like, nobody breathe, you know, like a miracle, you know, because there was always something, even if I wasn't totally focused on it, it was always there in the back of my mind until it is something got better. Like things were not okay if they weren't okay. And it suddenly dawned on me not long ago, which is kind of funny, but like how,

how codependent that is. And also how it really doesn't serve them because it doesn't mean that we don't hold space for them and support for them and compassion for them and empathy for them. But it's like, you can't go in that hole with them. You have to still be okay. I just had this conversation with my oldest the other day when he was going through, because he's not perfect now either. He has bad times and he was starting to beat up on himself and doubt himself and feel. I think it was because I made the mistake, quote unquote, of commenting to him.

He's really into Dungeons and Dragons and he's a dungeon master. And he makes these amazing complex worlds that like blow my mind. And he was telling me about one of the worlds and the characters and the different directions. I was like, oh my God, like if you just wrote that down, you would have written a fantasy fiction book.

And he's like, no, I couldn't do that. And I was like, well, I mean, you could. And then that immediately sent him to a spot. I can't write it. And I suck that I don't write it. And my life is meaningless. And I don't know. And I just like reminded him what I, I always say this to him, like, even when you can't remember who you are, I do like, so you can be sitting there saying all this stuff with you and I can have empathy for that, but that's not how I see you. And I'm not just saying that because I'm your mother. I'm saying that as the anchor of who you really are. And that has been really powerful,

but being able, learning how, because the old me would have been after that conversation, oh shit, is he doing okay? And have a knot in my stomach. And now like he cannot be okay and I'm okay. Here's a story I share in my upcoming book. So my 40th birthday was coming up. I'm huge on birthdays.

I even celebrate my kids' half birthdays. We do half a cake and we sing half of the happy birthday song. So I love birthdays. My 40th birthday was coming up and my husband planned this big party. There were people flying in from out of town. And then after that, I had a weekend plan

in Santa Barbara with my friends three days before that party is the night Luca, my oldest completely goes crazy with throwing stuff around threatening. It just, everything got out of control and I have to call the police on him while my other kids are, we're literally keeping him in our bedroom. So he doesn't run off and do something while my other kids are like, mommy, is everything okay? And why, you know, just nightmare. The police comes, I tell them to take him in for a psych hold. I spend the next day going in and out of the ER to visit him. He's, you know, sending me out screaming at me because he's mad at me that I call the police psychiatric hospital. So I tell my husband, I'm not going to have a party now. My mother-in-law

and my husband convinced me, what are you going to do? You can't visit him today at the hospital. What are you going to sit at home? I have the party. I do the weekend with my friends. Even during the weekend, I drive an hour every time to visit him in the hospital. I felt so guilty. I felt like I was the, how dare I celebrate and dance and all this when my son is suffering. My son is suffering. Yeah. Months later, I'm sitting with my friend, Zach Anner. He has cerebral palsy.

He's been a wheelchair his whole life. He struggled with really deep depression in high school. And I'm talking to him about all this. And he says to me, Christina, you did Luca such a favor. And I was like, what? When he finds out someday, he's going to, he's like, no. He said, I put my mom through so much with all my stuff in high school and I was depressed. He said, if I knew that I was the reason she canceled something she was looking forward

to, it would have put another layer of guilt that I now as a 30 something year old man would still carry. It was such like a mind blowing moment for me. He literally just removed all guilt and it helped me because then we had still years of a long journey with Luca, to realize by still living my life, still finding joy, I'm not a bad, selfish mother. I'm actually doing my child a favor. Yes. Giving him less burden to carry later of life. And a model of resilience and a model of what's possible. Like if you were all sweetness and light and everything's fine, even though your life is falling apart, it would be different. But

that's not what you're talking about. My son now on the other side of it has told me, you know, which brings me to tears. And I, you know, he volunteers at, and it's always these really emotional conversations. He'll just like be overwhelmed with gratitude for some reason. And so there's been many instances where he's like broken down in tears, certainly through the years told me all the shit I've done wrong. And there has been a lot of it, but in more recent years with his 2020 hindsight, he has told me often of the ways that I got him through that. And he has said on many occasions, like, I have seen you go through so much. I've seen you fight cancer. I've seen you have your parents die. I've seen you go through stuff with me. And every time, like to see that you can rise and still be happy and have fun makes me think that I can do that too. so I think that is such a powerful lesson for us to be okay even when they're not okay or others

aren't okay is oh is that a big one and it was one that you know took me a really long I'm still more recently learning on a new level but I think that's one of the most powerful lessons so I'm so grateful to you for writing this book for bringing all the things you bring really which are just those shadow parts. They're not even shadows. They're these beautiful parts of ourselves that we've decided are not acceptable or aren't enough or don't match some imaginary norm of perfection. And when we bring those shadows into the light, the shame evaporates. And that's really what you're doing is bringing the light to help other people's shame evaporate so they can really show up as their true gorgeous selves. So I'm so grateful to you.

thank you I'm grateful for you and again for being so vulnerable to and talking about your son I'm sure you have saved lives and you will continue to just by sharing his story so as a mother who lived thinking I was going to lose him and all that and you know I have no idea what my other two kids will end up getting I'm sure they'll show you some they'll take you on some interesting journeys I just appreciate that honesty because there are way too many parents who hide it because they're worried about being judged. And by not hiding it, but being open, I mean, like I said, you're saving lives and everybody has, you don't have to have a big platform. I used to do it on the playground. I remember when he

was really struggling and everyone would be talking about, oh, over Christmas break, we're taking the kids to Disneyland and we're going to go see my parents in Michigan. And what are you doing? I'm like, we don't go on vacation together because my oldest is too depressed and angry and he destroys every vacation and it's misery. So we're staying home, you know? I love that. When my son was first struggling, if I had ran into you at a park and you said that, I would have immediately felt like better, stronger, more capable, less alone. So it's powerful what authenticity brings and puts into the world. And yeah, I mean, getting rid of shame, I think will save a lot of lives. Yeah. Including our own.

Thank you. Thank you. So you should definitely read the book. In fact, I read it in one sitting. It was really good. Obviously, you're hilarious. Christina is a comedian, an author, and as she says, a recovering pessimist. But the book is Hold On, But Don't Hold Still, Hope and Humor from a Seriously Flawed Life. A beautiful life, Christina Guzman. Where else can people follow you obviously on YouTube, on social media, what should they look for? Yeah. Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, it's all at Christina Kuzmich, Christina with a K and then K-U-Z-M-I-C. And I'm on TikTok now too, which my teens cringe at. And then the next book will be coming out either June or September of next year. That's so exciting. Well, we'll have you back on for that book when,

when it does. And in the meantime, keep doing, shedding your beautiful light. Thank you so much. Thank you. I was so honored to speak with you today. Thank you so much.