Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Rocky Roads to Climax

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

Welcome to another Language of Love Session! I’ve got a truly engaging conversation lined up for you. But first, let me pose a thought-provoking question: Have you ever felt that the path to reaching an orgasm has become rocky? Meet Marla and Ken, a couple in their 60s, deeply in love. Here's the deal: they've been facing challenges reaching climax, and it's been putting a strain on their love life. Marla often takes the initiative, but Ken feels he isn't fully satisfying her. No matter how passionate a lover you are, age can throw in a few curveballs, like changes in hormones and blood flow. So hang tight, because this is one session you won't want to miss! In this episode, we’re diving into: The importance of open communication and discussing intimacy issues with your partner Why men often avoid addressing problems related to sexual performance How a lack of sexual intimacy can impact other aspects of the relationship, leading to emotional disconnection Ways to be intimate without the sole focus on reaching climax The magic of spending just 15 minutes each week on kissing, cuddling, and deep conversations to build emotional intimacy Don't forget to take a look at my books, Real Sex for Real Women and Loving Sex, as well as my program, Seven Days to Better Sex, which you can find on my website along with the rest of my books and courses on love, sex, and relationships. Be sure to tune in regularly to the Language of Love podcast for thought-provoking discussions and invaluable advice aimed at helping you love and be loved better. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Marla, welcome. So what's going on? Is this for you, or as I understood it,

was it for you and your husband, or what's the deal? It's for me and my husband. He's standing by. We're actually closing on a house on Tuesday, So we're out shopping for furniture and he said, I know you've been waiting to talk to her for all these decades, so I don't want to ruin it for you. I said, but this is about us. We've been married 37 years together, 38. We have two great kids. They're grown and launched and we're having a hard time with our intimate connection.

He's an early bird. I'm a late night owl. We're really so opposite. We would probably never choose each other on a dating website, but we work together. But in this case, he says, I'm taking it like maybe you're not attracted to me anymore. We're aging. It's a delicate process. And he said, I'm very attracted to your personality and to you physically.

He does get hard, but he said that leap from that to wanting to move into intimacy is something he can't pull the trigger on right now. Okay. So just let me just make sure I understand what you're saying. Please. You start to be sexual. And then when you start to have intercourse, he loses his erection. No, no, no. We don't even get to the intercourse part because I don't, along with many other women, don't have orgasms during intercourse. Right. It requires more energy. And as I age, I'm 62.

It requires more energy. Of course. And other things other than intercourse. Right. okay so you're fooling around yes we're fooling around but it's it's the foreplay that feels awkward for him like the last time we had sex we did incorporate a vibrator at the end and it was successful and i was like this is great we figured it out yeah so about a week about a week later he's like charge that up charge that up and then he never followed up and that really hurt me and I let it go because there were other things going on and we had to talk about it last night and I said you know it just hurt me because I'm like did you forget like what now that we know the formula yeah the formula how to get things going what's stopping you and he said I don't

know and that got me very upset because I don't know sounds to me like I don't care which is my own. Yeah. That's your trauma talking. Cause I mean, I don't know, but I, but it's not at all uncommon, especially, I mean, no offense to men. They can be very deep, but they don't necessarily like for the most part I'm generalizing, but men typically don't like to think about stuff that is about their, this is not working. So they would rather go there. So he may, he very well may not know because he hasn't really he hasn't really excavated it inside himself okay so before we even get to that because i'm still trying to understand no it's not your fault it's nobody's fault i mean it's not every day you like talk to a random

person about your sex life so you know it's not easy for everybody to articulate what the issue is. So I'm going to, I asked the questions. So yes, in the past, and I'm going to ask you to tell me when it changed more or less, but in the past he would initiate sex. You would have foreplay and you could get to orgasm through foreplay of different sorts and you would or wouldn't have intercourse, you can tell me. Am I understanding that so far? Yeah. Yeah. Foreplay was never a big part of it. I would always try to prolong it, you know, because, but he was more comfortable with just, you know, trying to please me. And, and when I wouldn't have orgasms, that made him feel bad. So, and I said, Kenny, yeah. And I said, honey, it's not you. It's I'm aging.

women don't come through intercourse. It's going to have to work a little harder now. So he read a few books, tried a few things, didn't tell me he was trying to do things. They didn't work. And then he just said he'd rather go to sleep and try again. Yeah. Which is very common. And so how long ago was that? I would say this has been going on for about nine months. Well, I mean, that's not, I thought you were going to say like five years. I'm glad you said nine months. I mean, I know it seems like a long ass time to you, but you know, it could be a lot worse. Right. So, but before that, you know, you've, it sounds like you're like 70% of other

women and you don't have orgasms with intercourse. And so before that either weren't having orgasms or you were having them through foreplay, but it wasn't discouraging him enough to have him not want to have sex. Yeah. I would say longer than nine months, honestly, the, the orgasm part, which, which made him feel just, well, I mean, a lot of guys, they can't understand because for them, orgasm is the punctuation mark on sex. Like they can't conceptualize sex without orgasm. So they project that on us, which of course we want an orgasm, but many women, almost all women will not reach orgasm every time. And they do some days are better than others. And sometimes it's just like, it's not going to happen, but I'm still

really enjoying the sexual experience, but it's hard for them to wrap their, like, how the hell would you enjoy the sexual experience without the punctuation mark? You know, it's hard. And they take responsibility for it, which sometimes it is partially their responsibility in terms of technique or stamina, but often it has nothing to do with them. But of course they internalize it, just like you would internalize it if he couldn't get an erection or couldn't do orgasm. The difference is back to the guys not wanting to excavate things that are painful. I mean, a lot of us, not just men that are like that, but when we're talking about penises, they're more like that than we are. But when you're not having success at it and you're feeling like you're

not good at it or you're not able to achieve the quote unquote goal, then especially around sex, this is almost universal. I find with men that when sex is not working, especially if it's their equipment or their technique in their minds not working, even though it's really not about their technique, it's about her and hormones and whatever else is going on with her. Exactly. They actually avoid it. They would rather avoid it than deal with the pain and awkwardness of fixing it, A. B, when they avoid it, and this is the part that's really even more heartbreaking, because for men more than women intercourse or sex is in the same bucket as kissing cuddling

hand-holding emotional intimacy yeah oh yeah when they aren't having sex all of that's gone too which for us like they are totally separate entities and kissing cuddling those are totally separate they can be the same but they certainly don't live in the same bucket you know but for guys, they live in the same bucket. And so when they aren't having sex, all of that goes. And that is what starts to damage the fiber of your relationship as well as whatever's going unspoken. Yeah. That's what's happening. Yeah. I'm sorry. Thanks. Okay. It's okay to be sad. It's a lot to hold and it's really hard to navigate on your own. Yeah. Especially because, you know, you don't have the vocabulary to talk about it. It's loaded. It's intimidating for him and maybe

for you too yeah yeah it's vulnerable for me too you know like to say things don't work the way they used to can you partner with me on this and help me that's not easy for me to say like and I think like a year ago I was like you know what I don't care if I have sex anymore because I didn't as I didn't want him to be yeah but the truth is that's not true all right and it doesn't have to be true even if he couldn't get erections you could still be physically intimate with each other and so is he do you ever initiate sex I think throughout our whole marriage 80 percent of the time I've been the initiator you have okay yes but but with him giving up and sort of like Like not noticing the elephant in the room.

I've become so sad that I can't authentically initiate. Yeah. And I also don't, we're in such a weird cloud that I don't even know how to find him in his wilderness. Yeah, that's a beautiful way to put it. He doesn't know it. Yeah. And that's what happens, right? When it goes on for a while, I always say I like the cloudy forest.

but I always say it's like a giant canyon between you, right? And it's really hard to find the bridge to cross it or to figure out how to cross it. And so there's the awkwardness and the disconnect and the cringiness and whatever else. And honestly, it feels like an insurmountable valley or forest between you, but it's really not. And it doesn't have to be. You just need guidance to get through it and, and some troubleshooting. So is he willing to come in? Yeah, he is. He is. And what's his name? His name is Kenny and Marla. Okay. Kenny, Dr. Laura Berman. Hello, Dr. Laura. Hey, Kenny. How are you? How are you? I am so good. And I'm so grateful that you're willing to come on and talk about this, not just for you guys

and your relationship, but this is the most common issue that I see in long-term relationships. And so, you know, like I'm always telling you guys that when you ask your question, you're cringing, you're embarrassed, you're thinking, God, you know, I can't believe I'm talking about this on the air. But when you do, you're not just helping yourself. There are millions of other people that are listening that have the identical story. And so you're helping them too by getting this help. So I thank you for being brave enough to do that because I know it's not easy. Thank you. Thank you. Marla makes everything easy. You guys are so sweet. So she was talking a little bit about what's been going on and I was trying to kind of understand

the timing of it and the logistics of what the challenges are. So I'm going to summarize my understanding. I don't, I think this is what she was saying, but I don't, not to put words in your mouth, Marla, but I just want to make sure we're all on the same page. Okay. So my understanding of what's been happening is that sex has gone by the wayside. And the reason for that is, well, the trajectory, let's say, as I understood from Marla is that she started having difficulty, more and more difficulty reaching orgasm in particular with intercourse or even in general, which is very normal as we age. And after we have babies and medications and stress and all kinds of things, women's orgasms are very fluctuating, let's just say. And especially

as we age, we need more and more stimulation, right? And that as that happened, you started, understandably so, because it's easy to feel, to take that personally, even if it's not personal, and to feel like it's a lot of work for little reward and it's also disappointing and kind of easy to feel inadequate, right? Like I said to her, if you couldn't reach orgasm or you couldn't have an erection, even if it had nothing to do with her, it had to do with your blood flow and hormones, it would be hard for her not to personalize it and think it had something to do with her and feel like a quote unquote failure. So when that happens very often, we withdraw from We just rather not try than try and fail. So my understanding is that as it got harder and harder for her to reach orgasm and it wasn't guaranteed and it was harder to come by that you seem to withdraw from wanting to have sex at all. Would you say that's a good summary?

Yeah, that's a fair summary. Yeah. OK. And on your end, when you have had sex or sexual exchange, I mean, when I say have sex, that could mean intercourse or not. Right. But when you have had sex, are you able to achieve and maintain an erection to your satisfaction? Are you able to reach orgasm? Like from your functioning standpoint, is it OK? Yeah, I mean, generally, yes. And if I'm going off on a tangent, stop me. But to that point, it's less gratifying knowing that I'm not satisfying Marla. And I think as I've gotten older, it's become increasingly less gratifying. And maybe when I was younger in the past, it was like, OK, you know, we'll get it next time or whatever. But as this became more of a regular thing, it just became less gratifying. And I just kind of went into this like little shell. And I know that's not the answer. That's never the answer to anything.

Right. But that's what I seem to do. Yeah. And that's not fair. Yeah, no, but and I totally understand. I mean, I was saying to Marla before you got in the car that it's really common, in particular with guys, because, you know, you're you're supposed to be able to fix and manage things and make problems go away. And also, you know, giving her an orgasm is like a, I mean, I think it's a beautiful thing because listen, men in the fifties could give two craps if they gave you an orgasm or not. Right. It's, it's our generation of men who actually care and want to, and, and, and it's ingrained in them now, which is a beautiful thing, a blessing and a curse that the giving our partner pleasure is part of their satisfaction, right? giving. So that's a beautiful thing. This isn't going to solve your problem, but I think it's important that you know, and it's part of solving the problem that I did a huge national study with Rand, you know, the big survey company looking at what the most sexually satisfied women in the country have in common. Right. And I put it into a book called The Secrets of the Sexually Satisfied

woman several years ago, but I'll give you the summary of the book right now. The key to a woman's sexual satisfaction, when we looked at what they all had in common, it wasn't orgasms. First of all, only 30% of women reach orgasm with intercourse. Second of all, most women, almost all women, I would say 99.999% of women don't reach orgasm every time, sometimes for long periods of time because we're so hormonally fluctuating even when we are younger, right? Plus our stress affects our hormones, our cycle, I mean, our stress affects our orgasms, our cycle affects our orgasms, our mood effect.

I mean, so our orgasms are so mercurial in that way. I can't talk today. I keep mispronouncing words. I can't pronounce it either, so don't worry. But, you know, they're not consistent even in the youngest, healthiest woman, right? And then as we get older and the hormones start to change and the blood flow starts to change, it gets even harder. And the reason I say this is because the key to the women's sexual satisfaction was the most sexually satisfied women was not the orgasms they had. In fact, many of them, like I said, didn't have orgasms, often didn't have orgasms at all.

It was the emotional connection and emotional intimacy they felt with the person they were having sex with that predicted their sexual satisfaction. That was it. And I think that's really important for guys to understand, because for you, orgasm is the frickin punctuation mark. Right. It's like, how can you have sex and not have that and have it be satisfied? But women are very different. So I think that's when you're nodding, Marla, because you I'm assuming you agree in your experience. That's true. Right. So it's really important for you guys in terms of setting the foundation for you changing this dynamic. for you to understand that whether or not she has orgasms what she's getting out of the sexual connection is and what and what is satisfying her which is what you want to do right it's not just that you want to give you want to give her an orgasm because you want to give her pleasure and satisfaction right it's not the orgasm itself you want to give her it's the pleasure and

satisfaction you want her correct right so you are giving her the pleasure and satisfaction and i'll confirm this or not with you i want you to be honest marla you are giving her the pleasure and satisfaction whether she has an orgasm or not orgasm is nice it's beautiful when it happens it's like a nice yummy delicious sneeze you know right but this is true for women i'm telling you It's too hard for guys to understand, but it's true. It's like yummy, delicious, amazing. But it's like afterwards, it's not like, oh, my God, I am so sexually satisfied because I just had the best orgasm.

There's I mean, yeah, that's great. But the sexual satisfaction comes from the experience of that closeness and connection with you and the feeling from you that you are fully present and that you're connecting with her and that you love her and that you're cherishing her and that you're enjoying connecting with her in this deep physical way that is what is the sexual satisfaction so edit me as you wish marla and matt speaking for you no you're you're right on the money the i'm from italian descent So I love long, slow dinners, long, slow, you know, I like to talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And I feel that when we are connected, I feel like this disconnect, what Dr. Laura said earlier was that cuddling, hand-holding, kissing, everything stops when men feel this feeling that you're feeling because of this situation.

But for me, I just I want it to be playful and connected and and have fun in bed and not be fearful of it and not have it be homework and not have it be like we better fix this. Like, I don't want it to be dire, but I also want Ken to be excited about pleasure. Yeah. And and not to be afraid of trying different things. Well, so how is that? Are you does it make you I mean, I can imagine it would if you've been if you've been feeling, you know, no one likes to do something that they've deemed they're unsuccessful at. Right. If you're buying into the story that success means orgasm. Right. That's not a true story for her or for most women. Right. But when that happens, if you're you're going to avoid it, right, rather than do something, I think you're going to fail it. I mean, that's human nature. Right. Right.

right so and you know so so you get to the fork in the road and and you know one one side of it is we'll try something else and the other side is well nothing's going to work so yeah just shut it down and and sadly i've taken the wrong side of the fork yeah that's it's not right but it's what i've done and not that it's not reversible it's not irreversible not at all but and you know Marla, for better or worse, Marla's usually charged with bringing up the subject and that that's not fair either, but I'm sure 99.99% of the women you've talked to would say that's what they do as well. So it's not right.

It's not fair, but it is what it is. And that's got to change too, to be honest. But I, you know, I don't view myself as a failure or anything like that, but I do feel that I think you're right. You know, we're guys and even mild mannered guys still take the responsibility of, you know, fixing things and making things right, safe, better and all that. And when it doesn't work, you do, you know, you take that to heart, you know, you really do.

And then you get all jammed up and you get all caught in your own frigging head and it just goes from bad to worse. And, you know, before you know it, you're just kind of spinning into this weird place. Absolutely. I think you put it so beautifully, so honestly, and that's what happens, right? That's what happens. and it's usually it's either the man or whoever it's whoever wants the whoever is avoiding intimacy less is the one that tends to initiate it right so sometimes then sometimes it's her right

but I think you put it so beautifully as you get yourself so jammed up and then it feels like there's this distance between you where it's really hard to get over the awkwardness and the cringiness so let me ask you this and I want you to be you're being so honest I don't even need to say this, but please continue to be honest when you answer this question. If we take orgasm off the table for the moment, and let's just pretend that's not the goal of the exchange. It can happen. It cannot happen. We don't care. That will be part of the homework assignment I'm going to give you guys. But if we were to do that, and orgasm is off the table, do you enjoy foreplay, pleasuring her in the ways that are like a slow Italian dinner?

Like, do you enjoy that kind of intimacy with her or is it just like a stepping stone toward orgasm? I guess it's both. I mean, I love touching Marla. Marla always feels great, smells great, looks great. So there's no problem touching Marla. Do I spend enough time doing it to get Marla aroused? sometimes yes probably more often than not no uh that's something i need to work on

clearly but then there's the other side of it which i can't help getting caught up in which is you know it feels good i'm sure marl is enjoying it at some level and what i mean by that is you know sometimes very much so sometimes you know a little that's fine but i never feel that marl So I wish you'd take his hands off me and just like finish it already. I never feel that for Marla. I'm always enjoys me touching her, but you know, it does creep into the back of your head that, well, it's, it's, you know, it's not going to lead to the end game anyway. So, you know, it's,

so let's just like get it over with. And, you know, I don't want to say I'm programmed that way, but that's how I think. Maybe that's how most men think. I don't know. And clearly I need to change that that thought process. And that's what I'm saying. Do you believe me? Because I talk to thousands of women. I have talked to tens of thousands of women. But for this study, I talked to thousands of women. Do you believe me when I tell you this and your wife is affirming it? No, of course I do. And I believe everything Marla tells me and says.

So now it's just a mind shift of really deciding to integrate that. Not that that's going to solve the problem, but that's step one. Well, yeah, I think, you know, look, the brain's a pretty powerful thing. And, you know, when you've thought a certain way, whether it's through education or social mores or whatever it might be, you know, certain things are ingrained in you. It's really hard to change that. I'm not saying that from a this-is-who-I-am-and-just-deal-with-it point of view. I'm saying that because it's just reality. It's not etched in stone, but it's reality, and it's a hard thing to turn around.

And, you know, I've got to deal with my time issues and, you know, other things. And it's hard. You know, it's just really hard. Yeah. And I'd hate to think that I'd be that kind of guy that can't change, because if I can't change for Marla, you know, that's, that's, I don't even know what the word is. That's just sad. Because no one's more connected as a couple than Marla and I are. But it's, it's, it's not enough. You know, it's just not enough. And I want to think I'm capable of doing more. And I just don't know that I am. That's really just scary. Yeah, I think you are. First of all, all you need is, I know he is, all you need is the intention and the desire. And the only thing standing in the way is that you don't have the means and the map. That's just logistics and guidance, right? The hardest part, you know, from where I sit, the one that helps couples do what you're wondering if you can do, is the intention and the desire to do it. If you don't have that, then you can't change it.

But you have that. Sure. So it's really about. I think I do. I think I do. I just need someone to kind of get me on that right path. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't know.

That's easier said than done. I'm going to get you started, but I do think you may, and you'll see how it goes, but usually you need a little continual support with where are you guys located? What we're in? Um, we're in Greenwich, Connecticut. We did sex therapy. How many years ago, Kenny? Seven or eight. And I, and I'm, I do have to say she gave us homework and I love you so much, but No, it's okay. I'm so far down the rabbit hole. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Ken didn't. No, not that it doesn't matter. No, it's relevant. I'm down my own rabbit hole, by the way. I'm not saying I'm down my own rabbit hole. No, no, I'm his number one cheerleader. It's relevant here. She told us to make a schedule sex.

Ken said, that's so sad. That's so sad. She asked us to look in each other's eyes for X number of seconds. We did it twice. And then I felt like I was the principal and had to call class in session and I got resentful. I didn't think that was fair. She asked us to do reflective listening. What I heard you say was, when I say that and asked him, what did you hear me say? He gets very upset and doesn't like that. When I asked him to validate me, that still isn't clear. So communication, in my opinion,

as his wife. It's a big stumbling block for us, especially when it's this, this kind of very vulnerable and I'm easily vulnerable. I'm like, listen, the plumbing doesn't work the way it used to a year ago. I said, I never cared if I had sex again, but now that I'm getting in tune with myself, thanks to watching you and others like you, I'm not willing to give up on that. Well, so let me ask, it might look different and it will look different. And that's what I was going to ask you is that you had mentioned that you had an encounter not too long ago where you yeah it's a vibrator and that which by the way i say to women all the time that if you're at if you're over 40 i say this to couples and i often have to really say this to the male partner if

you're if she is over 40 embrace the vibrator because no human no matter how virile and fabulous a lover you are can compensate for the change in hormones and blood flow. And it has nothing to do with what kind of lover you are or are not. No, I told Kenny that. So I say that as a preface, right? But you said that that was a really beautiful encounter and that you were able to reach orgasm and that. Yeah.

And I thought we had fun with that. But then what happened, Kenny? no seriously think about it because you said she said you said charge it up but then you never really circled back so what kept you from circling back yeah i you know i i really have no answer for that i know that in and of itself is no answer but i i i can't offer any explanation that makes any sense whatsoever do you remember what happened did you forget about it were you nervous about it did you i guess maybe a little intimidated by the fact that i couldn't do what it could do um i i can't come up with anything else that makes any not saying

that makes sense oh it does that's that's why i said it what i said earlier that makes a lot of sense that a lot of men think that yeah and it's it's the only thing that that enters my my head trying to you know come up with a thought about it and and you know again not articulating that to marla is it's very unfair you know marla's extremely and i we've talked about this i think one of the most amazing things about marla and there were many yeah is how vulnerable she is and um i there's the only thing that would surprise me about some something about marla that i don't know is the fact that marla hasn't told me about that because marla's very open and forthcoming about everything that's going on in the world hey what's up from good to bad and

everything in between so what hasn't she told you about my husband says the same thing about me by the way he's like what what you can you can knock me over with a feather if marla told me something that was like even insignificant that i didn't know about i know just about everything going on and and as a guy i just don't share that vulnerability to your earlier point we're guys we fix things and we keep everything humming along until we don't and when we don't we don't know what the fuck about it also does your plumbing work okay yeah my plumbing works good outside of peeing all the time but sexually it's working i mean he's a sad dr laura he's he's smart he you know he was a tax accountant in his profession he retired a few years back so

he's very time driven like if we're late like today we went to a furniture warehouse there wasn't a warehouse there he got you know upset and i said kenny this gives us an opportunity to go to somewhere else there's he likes things organized yeah so that all right so then let me ask you this kenny because she was recounting some of what the sex therapist that you went to brought up. If I were to design an initial treatment plan for you, I would suggest the following. And then we're going to dissect it and you're going to give me your honest opinion and I'm going to barrel through. So one, since initiation has become a loaded thing and communication around initiation is tricky we schedule a sensual sexual and a date

once a week both of you know when it's coming both of you can get your be aware of it you can be playful about it you can be extra flirty that morning you schedule it at a time where you both have energy. So if one's a views, a night owl, the other is a morning person, you do it at three o'clock in the afternoon, like whatever, but you, you set that time up and then you just, and then we'll talk about what you do during that time. Okay. So that's step one is scheduling it. And I know everybody, especially guys, when we first talk about that is like, Oh, that's so sad, but that's another fricking myth. So I don't mean to mock you, but every guy, everyone says that, But like, that's such a myth because, and it's from the stupid movies, but we think

that the only kind of good sex is spontaneous sex. And in the beginning of a relationship, when you're in the infatuation stage and you don't have kids and life and hormones diminishing and everything else and distractions and inhibitions and fears, when everything's new and exciting, of course, you're going at each other like rabbits. It's all spontaneous. you take every advantage. But in a situation like yours, if you are waiting for sex to happen spontaneously, it's never happening. It's not going to happen. It's just not. So what I'm going

to talk to you now about is building that bridge across the valley between you, right? Creating a bridge. Step one is committing. You're obviously a very disciplined guy and you follow through on the schedule you set for yourself. So make this part of your schedule and honor it. And if you don't do it, hold each other accountable. And if you can't do it because something comes up or one of you should not, I don't want you to change the date unless one of you is really sick or there's some crisis or something significant comes up. And then the person who had to cancel it has to reschedule it within a few days. It's not something that you do. And so that's step one is scheduling it. Piece two is that I want you, and you're writing

this down Marla, I see, right? Okay. I want you to take turns initiating it. Now the initiation will be very simple because you know when you're going to do it. So I want you guys to do it once a week for at least two months. So we're talking about eight encounters over two months, and I want you to take turns initiating it. Now, what does it mean by initiating it? Okay. So we're having sex at three o'clock on Tuesday, right? So there's not that much to initiate, right? But two o'clock comes for 1 45 and you're both like, right? So each time one of you take, you take turns where one of you is like, okay, I lit the candles. I have the massage oil. I put on the music, or you come out, Marlon, some sexy outfit, it's your turn to initiate, or when it's

your turn, Kenny, you say, all right, you know, and you can be silly about it, you can be awkward about it, you can be like, it's sexy time, you know, you can whatever, but you're the one that like, you know, let's go, baby. Okay, so you're going to times doing that. But it's really simple initiation, because you've both already agreed that it's happening. You're both anticipating it, and you're both prepared for it. We talked about that very thing last night and this week it's my turn to initiate. Do you know the day and the time?

Hasn't been set yet. We haven't set that yet, but we will. We knew it wouldn't be today or tomorrow. So it'll be Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. That's not good enough. You don't have to do it this second. But when we finish our call, I want you to choose a day or time

because we want to take as much of the guesswork out of this as possible for the short term until it kind of builds up on itself, okay? Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love, and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up

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find it right there on the homepage, the quantum sex free course. Check it out and let me know what you think? The next thing is that at least for the next month, if not indefinitely, I want you to be sensual and sexual with each other. And there's a couple of ways we can do this. So I'll ask you, I want you to be sensual and sexual with each other without orgasm being the goal or even the expectation. It can be hard when you're programmed for that to figure out what the end is. So the end could be when you reach orgasm, Kenny. The end could be that you say, okay, we're just going to focus. We're going to set an alarm for 10 minutes, 20 minutes. And we're just going to focus on kissing and touching and maybe having

intercourse if we want to and connecting sensually and sexually with no goal of either of us having orgasms. We may or may not for at least this amount of time. And maybe when the alarm goes off, we push snooze and we keep going, right? Or maybe we just snuggle for a little bit, right? So that's another way that you can do it. So the third way that you could do this is to keep it really structured, is to even take intercourse off the table and do something called sensate focus is what sex therapists call it, but where you are sensually and erotically touching each other without it, the intention of orgasm and not even, you know, and there's a specific way to do it, which I can, you know,

so if you want it to be like really directed where there's no guesswork and very little need to kind of navigate or communicate, I, we can start there. Right. Okay. Okay. So those are kind of like the three categories of action that you could take on your sex state. So what are your reactions for that? And that'll tell me where to go into more detail. How do you feel about that? No, that's it's a great way to reboot things. So I think that that sounds easy, good and simple enough. So it works. Which of the three you finishing when you have an orgasm, setting a timer and just seeing what happens or avoiding intercourse and orgasm altogether and slowly titrating up? I think avoiding orgasm and titrating up, I think, makes sense for me. I also think that's equitable, which I think is important.

Okay. So one thing you can do, and I'll walk you through it right now, but one thing you can do is if you get my book, Loving Sex. We have it. Ken read it. Okay, good. Oh, good boy, Ken. I like it. Thank you.

So in there, I think I described sensate focus, what I'm describing to you now. So you have that whole description in the book, but I'm going to run through it with you now. So you're going to be doing this once a week and you're going to do, each of you are going to get, are going to get about 20 minutes. So the whole, well, you know, I mean, the whole thing could take 40 minutes or 30 minutes or 20 minutes, you decide, right? So it may, if it's really intimidating, maybe it's just 10, 20 minutes at first, which would mean 10 minutes for each of you, right? And then maybe the next time it's 30 minutes and 15 minutes for each of you. And you can look at the clock. Okay. So now let me tell you what happens when I mean each of you. So let's

say that it's Marla's turn to initiate. Okay. So you have your sex date. It's your week to initiate Marla. You set the room up, make sure the heat is on and it's not too cold or too hot or whatever, you both get undressed. And your job, because you're going to do him first as the initiator, you're going to do Kenny first, is Kenny, you're going to lie on your stomach first. And let's say that this is each of you doing 20 minutes, just to keep it simple, right? You are keeping an eye on the clock, Marla. And for 10 minutes, you are going to touch Kenny from head to toe. The goal is not to give him some massage like you would at a massage clinic, but to touch him with reverence and love and sensuality. The goal is not even necessarily

to arouse, but to communicate love and connection and sensuality. You can use your palms. You can use your forearms. You can use your hair. You can even use your breasts a little bit if you want to, but the goal is not to make things like really hot and steamy. Okay. And you do them from head to toe, all up and down his backside. And then 10 minutes with him lying on his back and you're doing the same thing. Now, if we really want to titrate this and things feel really like we need a stepwise progression, the first time or even few times you do this, you can avoid the genitals altogether. So, or, and then the next time maybe you do a genital brush by, you know, and then the next time you spend a little time only sensually touching the

genitals, not like manually stimulating him to erection or giving him oral sex, but just, you know, sensually and erotically and lovingly touching. Right. So you guys can decide how you want to titrate that. I've told you the options. And then when 10 minutes are over on that side, then you trade places. And so your job, Kenny, when you're on the receiving end of Marla's touch is there's not a lot of talking. Just be present in your body. Your job is only to receive and to pay attention to what feels good, what doesn't feel as good, what your reactions are. And then afterwards, when you're both done, you're going to talk about it in a positive way. You know, you're not going to say, I didn't like it when you were touching my feet. You're going

to say, I really liked it when you were on my lower back and buttocks. I like that a lot more than the feet, you know, so that kind of feedback. Right. And then you're going to do her after she does 20 minutes or 10 minutes, whatever time you've chosen, then you do her. So she starts, Marley, you start on your stomach. Same thing. You're just receiving. He's touching you head to toe, erotic, sensual, loving, cherishing, not intended to bring you to orgasm or get you really aroused. And then when she's on her back, you can either avoid the breast and genitals. You can brush by the breast and genitals, or you can include the breast and genitals, but once, but no penetration with anything right and no like intentional clitoral stimulation to bring her to

arousal it's it's much more flowing and sensual and loving does that make sense makes sense yep so i would have you just do that for a month and if you're titrating like i said maybe the first time you don't touch the genitals at all the next time you do a brush by the next time you spend some time there, right? Like you can, but this is going to require, cause each time you're going to have like a five minute debrief where you're going to say, okay, this is what I liked. This is what I would really noticed. I was really responding to, oh, that felt really good. I, or gosh, I fell asleep for a second. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, you know, whatever that debrief was. And then you decide, okay, so next time you decide then next time, how about we, let's include the genitals.

Let's not include the genitals. I really liked it. Let's keep that going. There's no wrong answer. There's no timeline that you have to meet. There's no goal other than having the experience together and talking about it. Right. And making a plan for the next time.

You both know what the plan is. And then the next time you're going to initiate it, Ken, and you do Marla first. and then Marla does you for whatever time and whatever strategy you've decided upon, right? And then after that month, see where you are because you may find that you want to take it further or maybe you want to just keep it there for a while, right? So that's one thing I want you to do is the sensate focus. The other thing I want you to do is I want you to spend 15 minutes, And this can be before or after your home, your sex date or totally separate from your sex date.

And also something I want you to schedule 15 minutes with no technology other than music. You want it where you are kissing and cuddling and touching and talking with your clothes on, but really building an emotionally intimate and sensual connection. with, and it cannot lead to sex. So I want it to be really separate from even your sensate exercise. Like it's a separate container. It's not about sex. In fact, you can't have sex at least for a month. That's my suggestion anyway. And that you make out. So sometimes it's hard to even imagine what that looks like anymore after all these years, because kissing has become only part of foreplay for most couples, you know, like when you just kissed. Yeah. But it's really fun when

you try it and you don't have to like make out for 15 minutes straight. You can just, you know, you can see how it goes, but it's fun to like play a game at first. Right. So Marla, you kiss Kenny the way you most love to be kissed. So Kenny, you're the student and just letting her kiss you and responding to her the way she's kissing you and then kiss that way for a while. and then Kenny, you kiss Marla the way you most love to be kissed and kiss that way for a while. You know, like you can,

you'll learn things about each other and it's fun and it's playful, okay? There are lots of other exercises in loving sex. There's soul gazing. There's other things you can try, but this I think is going to be a really good start for building that bridge that will be your way across, okay?

And then if you want to call me back in a month, and we'll see where you are we'd love to we'd love to that sounds great you're amazing i can't believe it this is like this is a plan yeah no i'm just you're just a blessing and i notice i do fub kenny i saw that on your social media with the phone the fubbing you know it's too easy it's too easy do you know what she means by fubbing kenny i told you snubbing you with my phone bumping like hey remember i told you yeah so during the 15 minutes at least i just there was a study that came out not too long ago that most couples don't talk more than 15 minutes a week about things other than the logistics of their lives

we've just discussed that last night so that 15 minutes talk about things you don't talk no logistic talk. So you can say, you know, where, what's your dream vacation you'd still like to take? Where, when you think of us five years from now, where do you see us? You know, what's the most embarrassing moment you can remember having? You know, there's, there's a lot, you can even get those. There's a great little game that I sometimes have couples who really struggle with this use as a kind of a prompt. I think it's called table topics. yeah you know like if you had a superpower what would it be like those are these cards you can pull yeah yeah you know have some fun with that cuddle listen to music kiss just 15 minutes i

mean it can be longer if you want but just 15 minutes once a week will make a huge difference okay and then one final thing yeah another timed activity but this is a daily one and i want you when we finish to get out of the car and do this. But preferably in the beginning of the day, it's even better. A 30-second heart-to-heart hug. So you are face-to-face, heart-to-heart, and you are hugging each other silently for 30 seconds, which feels actually like a really long time when you're doing it. And as you do, you can either say it out loud or even just think it silently to yourself which is why i like doing it in the morning say to yourself i choose you i choose you i love you and send imagine sending energy of love from your heart into your partners

just do that for 30 seconds yeah right that's sex for her kenny that's better than an orgasm He doesn't believe me. It's true. I just, my love language is touch and, and Kenny's just not overly affectionate, you know? And, you know, I even said, I just said, I need to make your list. Like I need to be on your list. yeah well it just doesn't occur to him it's not that he doesn't want to it a it's not his love language so like my just to give you an example kenny my husband's the way he feels love is through appreciation and that doesn't it's not that i don't appreciate just like it's not like like just like you love touching marla you know but it doesn't occur to you to do it and it doesn't It occurred to me to give him, to be like, thank you. Like, I'll say thank you, but like, you know, thank you for giving me the cup of coffee.

But I'm not like, I don't consciously, I feel bad about this, but I don't consciously appreciate. So in order to train myself, I set little alarms on my phone. And whenever it goes off during the day, because I set it for when I'm going to be with him, you know, when I found him, whenever I feel that little buzz, I'm like, oh, let me give him a little appreciation. And there's always something to appreciate. I mean, he's easy, just like she's easy to touch, but it doesn't occur to me to do it, but that's my prompt. And then I say, okay, or I already have some appreciations that I thought of, but never told him, you know, cause I often think it, but don't say it. And so I say it out loud, you know,

and i can see like soaking it all in and feeling all good about it so try that if you want yeah that's a good idea little buzz and then you know to go give her a hug or to give her a kiss or to reach out for her hand and you train yourself and then you don't need the alarm anymore right right so even if you do that four times a day it's just like having it in your consciousness yeah yeah we tried that about a year or so ago i put in his phone snuggle my wife like every day and and it started out really really good and then it became a peck and then it just got forgotten and that you know well did you set it with an alarm or did you just yes calendar no it alarmed it went off in the alarm why didn't you do it

No, the reminder, it would go beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Yeah. So she asked you a question. Your turn, Kenny. Why did you? Hey, what was that about? I recall doing it. And I think I touch and hug Marla throughout the day. But it's, it's clearly not enough. And I'm not saying it's every day, but I do think most days I am holding her. I am touching her.

I am hugging her. I thought like the scheduled sex, putting it in a calendar. It was kind of cute in the beginning. And then I didn't think it was all that necessary because I felt that I was doing it throughout the day anyway. But that certainly makes sense. As the days turn to weeks, the weeks turns to months. I recognized that I wasn't doing it anymore. Yeah. And I understand. I mean, what you said makes total sense. But here's the thing, like what I can tell just from talking to you, not to mention from your energy, not to mention what you said, that you really want you have profound love for her, like intense and profound love.

and you really really want her to feel that in a way that lands with her it's not that you don't want it to you don't want her to feel it you do very much you taking the time to schedule it or even if she puts it in your schedule and then honoring that making it so important that you're setting an alarm so you make sure to do it is saying to her how much you love her exactly and how much of a priority she is it's so important to me that you feel loved even if it's not how I feel loved this is your love language and it's so important to me that you understand how much I love you that I'm going to do this in this way and honor it so deeply that I'm going to schedule it just like i did with my husband and appreciation right right right because doing that is a sign

to her that you really want to do it and that it's important to you and that's okay i've said penny it's okay it doesn't come naturally i i have to put a reminder on my phone to ground myself a couple times a day to check in with god and where's my feet where's my brain and if i don't do that and see it and the alarm I don't do it right just because it doesn't come naturally that's right so so are you willing to do that Kenny I'm willing to do that okay good it goes back to what I said before that I think it's weird to me that I need to put it in my alarm to show affection to my wife yeah i take that as a personal insult not that marl is insulting me yeah that i'm insulting myself that i don't show my wife enough affection yeah but i've got to put

it in the calendar like what kind of freaking loser am i yeah well i don't and i don't mean that literally i'm no i know i'm just cutting to the chase the essence of what you just said not the content of what you just said. And I'll explain that is going to be the biggest stumbling block. And you guys moving through this because the self-flagellation that you're doing right now of like more or less, I mean, I know it's not exactly this more or less you lose or you suck. That is likely. And my, and my sense is that is a very common refrain inside yourself. That's very old you know there's a the main kenny knows that he's not a loser of course he's not but there's like a little one in you who probably was made to feel like you didn't measure up a lot when

you were growing up and that you could never quite reach the bar or you weren't enough or you were or you were hyper criticized or you were beaten down or some version of that right and so that's where part of the fear of failure that we all share, but to differing degrees comes in. And then and I can guarantee you the reason you stopped following the calendar memos is because you felt like a loser that you needed the calendar memos and you were beating yourself up that you needed them. So do you see how that's the stumbling block? Because, right, because, you know, I mean, there's a part of you, the grown up Kenny I'm talking to knows that exactly what I just said. This is just a language of love that isn't yours. It's like

I have to remember to explain everything in Spanish to my wife who speaks Spanish and not English. Right. Like, oh, I forgot I have to translate for her. Right. Does that make me inadequate that I forgot because English is my natural language and I sometimes forget that I need to translate for her? No. Right. So this is the same thing. You know that. I mean, I'm telling you this but you already know i think this kenny's sitting in the car knows right but then there's this younger part of yourself that's kind of like the crazy we all have a crazy roommate in our head or many of them some of us right and so there's a crazy roommate who's in there like you lose it but you know you need like what the fuck you learn you suck that you need to you know and that's the

one you're listening to stop listening to that one because they're full of shit they're just someone who it's that part of you that was beaten down and made to feel less than and is not your true self that's your wounded self now if you were if i were your therapist and i were you know we would be exploring that and working on that maybe an area of degree you want to explore at some point because it would improve your life in many ways but for people's purposes see kenny always says like I had the best childhood, you know, cause I had, you know, my dad was an alcoholic, you know, I had a lot of stuff to overcome, but Ken's like, I had a great life. I grew up in co-op city. My, yeah,

my parents fought a lot, but they loved me. And I'm like, Kenny, everybody has a wounded kid inside. Everybody. Many, many wounded kids. I got, yeah. So Kenny, you got a wounded one. I can tell you do. and listen that's part of why you're so sweet exactly it's part of our gifts it's just there's a shadow side and a light side i will tell you with a hundred percent certainty that i i have zero recollection of have any parental issues growing up as a child i i you know my parents argued a lot which was common in blue collar families they had any money to do anything

but i you know we grew up in a great area to grow up with tons of friends i look back and i can't think of one bed so why is it you're so quick to feel like you don't measure up why is it that you're so hard on yourself we're not born that way things make us hard on ourselves you know i always try to do my best i think a lot of people do that and i have i have a high standard for myself, I don't think it's an unreasonably high standard. I have a high standard for our relationship and I get, I have a high standard for being a parent, a son, a brother. And when I don't meet those standards, I take it hard. And I, you know, and especially when I don't recognize it, but I need somebody else to point it out to me. Right. You know, specifically, you know, Marla and

i you know how do i not see this you know why didn't i think of this um why didn't i take the right measures to avoid this why did i have to put marler in this situation to bring that out to me so i i don't you know and i know i'm i'm alone on this thought you know i don't think it takes takes me to a place where i was seven years old and was yelled at or or abandoned or hit or this or that and i don't want to spend 20 years in therapy trying to figure that out you don't have to no no i'm not suggesting it doesn't take now it doesn't take 20 you don't have to do it at all and i'm not meaning to imply no no no no no no no but but i'm glad you but i will say there is it is obvious to me in this conversation and i'm an outlier like malcolm gladwell you know when it

comes to uh feeling people's emotional set points right yes you set a really high standard for yourself which is great the part that i want to just invite you to be with and think about until we speak again is why can't you give yourself more compassion and grace and you don't measure up okay so you didn't measure up but the bar is still there and i'll measure up the next time and i can do hard things or things that don't come naturally to me so you know there is like two ends of the spectrum one is the one that i've you know conditioned myself to do and it's almost a joke with my friends and my husband you know because they all know this because I'll say it. Whoopsie poopsie, you know, whoopsie poopsie. Oh, well,

okay. Fucked up. I'll do it again next time. Right. Whoopsie poopsie, you know, and the other end of the spectrum is you're such an idiot. Like, why can't you do this? You're a horrible husband. You're a horrible father. You didn't remember to blah, blah. You didn't do blah, blah. that makes you a bad partner that makes you an unworthy person right there's that other extreme right so i'm not saying you're on the far right far end of that extreme but that energy that's definitely there and that will paralyze you that's what i mean when i say that's your that's your i mean everyone there are stumbling blocks between you there's stumbling blocks that you each have. But for you, Kenny, that's going to be the biggest stumbling block in shifting this

is the degree which you are willing or not willing to give yourself grace when you don't follow through, when you don't measure up, when you don't perform the way you think you should perform. That is why you've been avoiding it. Yeah. Marla always says that. So give yourself some grace. I always say that. I'm like, Kenny fucking cares. Yeah. You know, it's like failure to launch. Big deal. You internalize a series of things or some things that didn't have to be your parents. I mean, I don't mean to go spelunking and it's helpful to eventually figure it out because then you can externalize it and you realize that it's not you, but you don't come to this place naturally. Nobody and many, many, many get there. I mean, there's millions of us

that live like you're a living. You're certainly more the norm than not the norm in terms of the degree to which you beat yourself up, but you don't come to a play. We are not born beating ourselves up. We don't come into the world as children with that tendency. It's modeled for us. It's done to us either through bullying, sometimes by a coach, sometimes by a teacher, sometimes by bullying, sometimes by kids on the bus, sometimes by our families, you know and some of us are more sensitive to it than others and you're I can already I can tell you're a really sensitive soul so you probably came in that way and it wouldn't have taken a lot to make shut down and be like okay I gotta measure up or I'm gonna feel like shit about myself and

I'm not gonna be safe and people are gonna make fun of me or humiliate me or or reject me and so So I've got to be the harsh coach in my head to be okay in the world. And that's what I just want you to think about, play with, notice. You know, one of the things that I like to do, and I've done at different points in my life myself, but also advise others to do, is what I call a thought cleanse, right? So just for the next 24 hours, and this is good for you to do, any of us to do. for the next 24 hours, pay attention to what you're saying to yourself in your head and just notice how often you talk like shit to yourself or not. Just notice. You don't have to do anything about it, but there is an inner dialogue constantly going on. So is it the

crazy mean roommate or is it you like who you know what what are you saying to yourself and to and what percentage of the time are you saying you shouldn't have said that or how could you have done that or why didn't you think of that or what and how often are you not right it'll be an interesting experiment okay i call that the dark passenger like that voice in my head and when she jumps on my train i sometimes it takes hours to get her off or you know and it i say kenny we're both vulnerable here yeah my parts don't work the same i'm not expecting you to fix this but i need your willingness for us to fix it yeah absolutely well he's very willing he's just self-critical and scared yeah nice sweet boy he's gonna make my girl happy yeah we'll stop beating yourself up

baby i said he's the man he's the man you're the man daddy i'm the man and he's the hottest man and it's it you know it's it's my head and marla and i talked about this a lot last night it's uh you know we're our own worst enemies right we are and you know marla you know sometimes we get into stuff and it can get a little nasty but it always comes from a good place and some sometimes you got to take a step back to take a couple steps forward so i never never that never bothers me at least not in a surviving kind of way the moment it might hurt but it's never something i take the bed with me but i just got to get out of my own head yeah and i i encourage kenny to like you know like to talk to me about it like i i love him so deeply or to talk to

any, you know, he doesn't want to talk about it. He doesn't want to be there. And that's OK. Let's not push it. Look at him laughing. You get him so much. Let's see. I love you as much as I thought I would. Oh, my God. That was precious. That was precious. He doesn't want to talk about it. I'm a guy. I don't want to talk about it. So just do your homework. Nothing else. Don't make him do anything else.

I'm not going to make him do anything else. I promise. And check back in with me in a month and we'll see where I would love to. That would be an honor. You are amazing. Thank you so much. All right. Much love.

I went to the doctor Said I'm crazy for your love Wrote me a prescription But there's no cure for a crush