Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - The Real Reason You’re Stuck in the Same Fight (Again and Again)

Episode Date: April 30, 2025

Do you ever feel like your relationship is stuck in a loop? The same fights, the same frustrations, the same silent distance—even though you both want things to be better. Here’s the truth: Your partner’s baggage fits yours perfectly. The work isn’t to change them—it’s to unpack your own while holding space for theirs. In this raw and revealing Language of Love session, Brian and Stacey lay bare their struggle—blame, withdrawal, and the aching fear of not being enough. Stacey is fighting to reclaim her voice after trauma, wondering if her needs even matter.Brian admits he’s been avoiding effort, hiding behind the excuse of being “too busy.” Their story is your story. The tiny misunderstandings that explode into disconnection. The love that’s there but buried under frustration. The desperate hope that things could be different—if only they knew how. If you've ever felt invisible in your relationship, used "busyness" as an excuse to avoid hard conversations, wondered why affection feels like a battleground, or found yourself trapped in the blame-defend-withdraw cycle, this episode will leave you breathless—and give you the tools to break free. Here’s what you’ll learn in this episode:  Why “I don’t have time” is often code for avoidance—and how to fix it  The silent killer of relationships: unspoken expectations around affection  How just 10 minutes of intentional time can rebuild connection  The Drama Triangle (Victim, Villain, Hero)—and how to step off it  How to ask for love without triggering defensiveness  Why childhood wounds keep replaying in your relationship—and how to stop them  Non-sexual touch: The secret to rebuilding emotional safety  How to hold space for both love and frustration (yes, it’s possible!) Ready to Heal? Take my free quiz and start 7 Days to Better Sex to transform intimacy today. For deeper trauma work, explore EMDR and the Drama Triangle—because love shouldn’t hurt this much. Your story isn’t over yet. Let’s rewrite it together. Got questions? Email me at [e-mail] Share this episode—love grows when we heal together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Brian and Stacey, welcome back. You ready for your session?

Yes. Yes. Sorry. I'm just saying a quick little text, but I am ready. Okay. But what's going on? How have you guys been? you know okay just bumps on the road every day yeah just trying to deal through the bumps what do the bumps look like just have not had the time myself personally to really put forth work on the relationship i think it's been really tough it's been hard uh because not i guess practicing on a daily basis kind of gets me set back in my old ways and not listening as such or not being often. It always is interesting to me when people, because what we want, and you're not alone. I'm calling you out on this, not only for you, but for the thousands and thousands listening who do the

same thing or think the same thing. In an ideal world, I know you guys need to be working on things to repair and to create a different way of being. And it does take a little bit of attention and intentionality and effort. But that part of it, you don't need a lot of time for. Now, you do need time to create space for connection and quality time and all of that. But I hear this all the time. I've been so busy lately.

I haven't been working on the relationship. So let me just ask you, that's what you just said. So let me just ask you, and I'm gonna get to you too, Stacey, in a minute. But let me just ask you, Brian, what kind of quote unquote working on the relationship have you been too busy to do i've chosen not to be mindful enough to listen to any audiobooks or podcasts based on working on the relationship i've also just been trying to wrap my head around everything that i'm trying to

do in my business to get some traction based on that i haven't really you know stacy has a birthday coming up and because of that i should have thought ahead of time and you know been planning for like probably two weeks ahead of time and I haven't, I just, you know, I've just been trying to plan a lot of other things, but I should have been more mindful and planning to do that better, to think through of what she would really want.

I don't even know what I'm saying, if that all makes sense. You haven't been putting your attention on the relationship or on her. You've been putting your focus elsewhere. So let me ask you this. We started doing these kind of every two week podcast sessions of certs because we're waiting for you guys uh first of all for stacy to get

into some trauma therapy and then hopefully for the two of you to get into some couples work let's pretend i was a canadian therapist and i was gonna see you as a couple would you be too busy for our weekly sessions no i was just telling stacy that now i said that i guess from after the argument today we were kind of like we both were like oh forget it let's just cancel dr laura and i was like no no we can't like we need that she's like why and then i said well every time i have a session i feel better coming out of the session every time i have a session i it does put me in a more mindful spot and you would make time for it yeah i respect your time and uh like greatly obviously and i know that you know part of our relationship there's got to be some put forth

effort of time? Because that can be this, that you're not doing weekly therapy now. So if you put in your schedule 10 minutes a day, five days a week, or 30 minutes, two days a week to invest in learning, growing, discussing things, thinking about the relationship, you know, just as a silly, it's not an exact, it's not a totally parallel example, but I'm working on writing a book. And it goes and fits and starts. What I do is every single day, I am at my desk at 6am from 6 to 8am, even if I have nothing to write. Because I'm doing edits on something or I've sent something that you know, I'm just there's nothing actively for me to do in terms of the writing. I do other things, I maybe start planning the other chapters, or I

read back through what I've written. But those two hours every morning are for the book, period, no matter what. Now, obviously, I'm not talking about you doing two hours. I'm talking about you doing 10 minutes, five days a week, or 30 minutes, two days a week. You could, okay, here's my 30 minutes of relationship time. I'm not doing an hour a week with a therapist yet. I'm going to treat this the same way, like an appointment. And during this time, I'm going to think about my relationship. I'm going to do any business of my relationship, not of logistics, but oh yeah, it's Stacy's birthday coming up. What else do I need to think about that? What kind of stuff have we been working on? What can I read? What podcast can I listen to? But that becomes something that's

an investment of your time and energy in the same way therapy would until you get into therapy. So you could treat this the same as you would therapy. Yeah. I'm just making excuses. I feel like all of my time's been eating up, not just with business, but also with arguments. And then when I look at like an hour a day of arguing, some days it's two hours, some days it's half an hour. I just feel like all that over the course of a week adds up to like 10 to 14 hours of arguing. And I'm just. And you have to probably have five to six hours. You could cut that in half if you just invested an hour a week in what I'm talking about. Yeah, exactly. Right. That could. Yeah. So I'm not saying this to beat you up. I'm saying or to make you feel like you're somehow,

you know wrong i am saying it as an active suggestion and request of a different way to frame this and something different to do moving forward so are you willing to try that yeah that would be great actually if we put forth an hour every two weeks to talk to you and why have those other every other week we should put forth an hour to really invest in ourselves on our own practice of conversations that are not just surface level deeper ones that we have to get the root problems. Yeah. And I would not count me, even though I am sort of a pseudo therapist to you, you know, we're doing this on a podcast and I'm just helping you as best I can. But I would say, I want you to invest an hour a week, however you want to split that up. But I want you to

actually put it in the schedule, in your calendar. Every week, it can be different. One week, it can be 20 minutes, one day, five minutes, the next three days, another week, it can be 10 minutes every day, however you want to do it. I want you to put 60 minutes at least set in your calendar where nothing else, there's nothing else you're doing in your business or to-do list or anything else. And you are listening to something, working on something or thinking about something in service to your relationship. I know we need that as a practice, as a non-negotiable, we do need that. So are you willing to do it? I'm willing to do it. Yes. Okay. Stacey, how about you? What's going on? What did it put in the road from your perspective? So he just touched on it and I just

love the way you framed it, which sometimes I get frustrated because I wish I could frame things that way even though that's exactly what I said in our argument today about it and I'm explaining that you know it sucks that I get things and then I work on things when I work on them but I try I'm not perfect I try and practice what I've learned with you so that it's not in vain right otherwise we're just wasting everybody's time so I'm trying to put into practice of okay like I'm not going to complain about what's happening I start off that way and then I kind of like this is what I want this is what I'm feeling this is what I want but then it changes and it becomes because I shared what I want now it's becoming oh so you're telling me what you want oh what about what I want and

then it becomes you're telling me what you want because you're trying to prove to me as in Brian that I don't value your time or I don't think you're important or I don't make you feel important. So it's almost like I'm trying to use the tools. Yeah. And it's got firing on me. Yeah.

So the tool you're talking about, just for anyone who's listening, who hasn't been listening, definitely listen to our prior sessions together to take a deeper dive into this. But one of the things that Brian and Stacey and I have been working on is this idea of speaking unarguably because you guys get caught in these cycles of arguments.

He said, she said, you're controlling me. You don't care about me. You both have your stories, right? Brian has a story is that it's your way or the highway, and he's not allowed to have a voice. Your story is he doesn't really care or invest in a relationship, right? I mean, those are the general themes I'm simplifying here, but that's the overarching thing. So that just those stories come up in every conversation. And we and we talked about the drama triangle and how you get stuck there. And one of the ways to have clean, clear communication is to say what your story is, how you're feeling and what you want. And when we last talked, you shared that you had noticed that when you shared what's your story and how you're feeling that that led to defensiveness. So you were starting to just focus on what you want, which seemed to be working. Now you're saying, from what I'm hearing correctly, that when you said, at least today or recently, when you went straight to what I want, because of the defensive state of mind, and no criticism here, this is just what we do in relationships, I'm just narrating. because of the defensive state of mind that Brian was in when you said, what I want is blah, blah,

blah. He heard it as Stacy's way or the highway. My needs aren't important. And what's underneath this is a criticism. Would you say that's a good summary? Yeah. Okay. So what was happening there is that you were off the triangle and he was on it. It's really frustrating to bring awareness or accountability to either of us. If I am aware of things and I try to bring it up for Brian so that we can be on the same page, it always backfires for me.

And I'm always then feeling like I should have just kept quiet and just let it be the way it is because- Well, what you can do, And I'm sure it goes the other way too, right? So remember what I've told you about when you are on the triangle, meaning when you are stuck in those stories of being a victim, being a villain or being a hero, right? So the story you are trying to control me, it's your way or the highway and you're being

critical is a victim making you the villain, right? When someone is in on the triangle, and I'm not just saying Brian does this, you do it sometimes too, right? When you are trying to talk to someone while they are in the triangle, it is like trying to talk to an insane person that you cannot reason with someone when they're on the triangle, period. And in my case, even I remember I shared this story, I think, in the last episode or one of them about when I would try to point this out to my husband and him to me, we would almost murder each other when we tried to point out this. something you can't many most couples can't tolerate especially if they're still in the active phases of conflicts can't tolerate a partner telling them they're on the triangle when they're on the triangle like that doesn't go well so the only thing you can do in that moment

is walk away now that doesn't mean telling yourself you should have never brought it up or deciding what's the point it means tabling it for a while and saying you know what I'm noticing where you don't even have to say you're on the triangle. I'm noticing we're stuck here. Okay. I mean, there've been many times in my earlier, before we got this down that I knew my husband was the one on the triangle. I'm not suggesting you do this, but I would say I'm on the triangle.

So I'm going to take a break just so he wouldn't get defensive. Brian's already defensive. He's going to assume, you know, I don't think you need to even bring up the triangle. It just say we're stuck right now. Cause you are, but if you're stuck, let's table this and come back to it okay that's one option and then you wait until he's worked out until he's shifted until some time has passed and then you say i'd really like to revisit our conversation and you move and shift and do some things too to move out of it and then come back

to it later okay that's one option the second option is you can say to him if you're upset about something or it hasn't, you know, you're in some sort of exchange, you can say, are you open to hearing what I really want? That often comes across really differently than you didn't make any, I'm just making this up. I'm not saying you said this, but you didn't make any plans for my birthday. And what I really want is for you to be more conscious of the things that are important to me, right? That's one way to say it, which he who is prone to being victim of being criticized and controlled, that is the lens that he's going to be wearing. So if someone who's wearing a lens of I'm being, I tend to be criticized and controlled by this person, right? If he heard

that from his best friend, you know, who always was cheering him on, hey, you know, what I really want from you is blah, blah. He wouldn't hear it as defensively, right? So it's also the person that's coming from and what he attributes to you. So that's part of the dynamic that's happening. So if you can ask him if it's okay, and not even attach it to what he's recounting all the things he's done wrong, but just say, hey, would you be open? And this could be after you come back to it. So let's say you say, let's take a break. You come back to it. You really come to him from a loving state, right?

Because beyond how pissed off you are about X, Y, Z, you're in this, you want this to work and you love him, correct? And there is a part of you, maybe not the triggered part of you, maybe not the part of you that's on the triangle, but there is a part of you that can see the meta view, the high view of this. And that the two of you are just two souls trying to find your way. You have a family together. you have a life together, whatever you're going through is going to work its way out. And this

is a blip on the screen. Certainly this argument today is, right? So when you can hold it from that state of view and move your body system into that, this is where the whole quantum love thing comes in. And then you come to him with this feeling of openheartedness and you say, hey, instead of us just staying stuck in this argument. Can I just tell you what I would really love? It makes me feel so good when you blah, blah, blah. I feel so loved when you planned ahead. I don't mean to criticize you. This isn't about criticism. I just really want you to let you know that this would mean a lot to me if you could put your attention on it. Now, he still might get defensive, right? And then you just take a break again and walk away and let it land. And often, if you've really

said your piece, he's hearing it, even if he's defensive in the moment and he'll come back to you, right? I mean, I think that happens often, correct? Yeah. And this is labor intensive, but it is temporary because what you're doing now is, you know, imagine a train or a semi-truck that's rolling down the highway at 80 miles an hour, you can't just screech on the brakes and start turning the direction of the wheels, right? Where you are now is in the slowing down to a stop and getting the momentum going in the other direction.

And that is a labor intensive period in a relationship. So there is a lot of back and forth. There is a lot of defensiveness. There is a lot of handling and coming back to things And, you know, saying the thing again and again, that's normal when you're changing directions. That's a good way of saying it. Okay. So, so when he was saying bumps in the road, what would you say the bumps in the road are specifically?

Yeah, right. Yeah. I think the bumps in the road are just things similar to what I just said, where we're trying to communicate and then we get off track because we get stuck in there and then we become the victim and then we blame and then it's pointed back, fingers are pointed back and forth. And so it's really hard to kind of get each other to be on board with, okay, listen, there's deeper things going on. Let's focus on that instead of, you know, I'm making you wrong and you're making me wrong. Ultimately, we just want to be both happy. So I want you to see this quicker so that we can be happy. And if I can't see something that I'm doing, then I hope you would see it for me. Tell me so I can work on it as well. And does he get derailed with that? Sometimes, but sometimes he doesn't. It goes into the victim and then I'm blaming. And then it's, no, what about me?

And what about you? And then other things are, well, yeah, sometimes even with the kids, like we're arguing about that and those little bumps. And then the bumps of he's focused on the business and there's no time for us. So there's no time when we're talking. And then he thinks that when we bring up issues or bring up things because he's present and he's right there, that this is like an argument or this is like a long, drawn out conversation and he has no time for it. And then that tells me it's not important enough to even spend the time to talk about it. So these little things, and then they add up. And I feel like because there's all these little things, because back 25 years before, or sorry, 22 years before, it was different. I was a different person. I just went along with everything. I'm still trying to have my voice, still trying to be seen. I'm no longer that person. I'm a bit more evolved. So now I feel I have a voice. I can be seen. I do matter at certain times. But it's hard because I think it's because I just stayed along with being quiet that the relationship carried on the way it is. But the moment now that I feel like I'm changing and I don't feel like I should, you know, be intimate when I don't feel it or there's no connection or there's no, you know, like we're arguing or whatever it is that's affecting the connection.

Then I feel as though this is why all of this is happening, because it was just kept quiet and now it's surfacing. and I think that one big thing is the reason that we're here today is because I stopped having sex when I didn't feel like yeah well you hadn't really stopped until I made you stop and you were already or not made you I suggested you stop it was my order to stop but but I hear what you're saying that you've changed the rules and welcome to life I mean God help the couples who are together 20 years and nobody changes. That is the wheel. That's the change, right? That you changed. And now he's having to, as you change, I mean, this is what, and I've said this to you guys before, and I say it all the time, that when we're having the highest level at the highest,

most spiritual, most metaphysical, most whatever you want to call it level, the purpose of a relationship is to grow your soul. Because there is no place else that your old wounds are going to be triggered as deeply, your feelings about yourself are going to be triggered as much, you know, your wounds, everything gets triggered, right? So when you now, let's just say, have more of a voice, assert yourself more, are less, quote unquote, cooperative, meaning just go along with whatever is and whatever happens and actually are voicing your needs and wants. And then Brian hears that as criticism or control, right? That isn't necessarily about you being critical or controlling, although I'm sure you can be sometimes, we all can be,

but it's not really about you being criticizing and controlling. It's about his earliest wounds around being hyper-criticized and controlled and not feeling good enough and not feeling lovable enough. And so what's coming up for him when he says, I can't do anything right, what about my needs? When someone is on the triangle, the reason they're not of sound mind and body is that they are in the part of themselves that is a much younger, triggered, hurt, wounded, or traumatized part of themselves, right? He's back to being the six-year-old who was being hyper-criticized or was told that he wasn't good enough or was abandoned or was hurt in some way because he didn't say or do the right thing, right? So it's really, and the same happens

for you. I'm not saying, Brian. So that's really, really important to remember, okay? Because what you're talking about. I was like, I've been working on some of my trauma. I'm learning to have a voice, which is part of the healing from trauma, right? Like obviously you have to do the somatic piece and heal the physical aspects of the trauma. And a huge part of the trauma of sexual assault and abuse is the powerlessness piece, right? And so what you are working on as part of your healing and is finding your voice, which is finding your power in life and in your most intimate relationships. Okay. So I don't know that if we were to say, yeah, have sex, which of course we don't want to do because you were disassociating, but have sex whenever it comes up, go ahead and do

it. These issues would still be coming up. It would also, as we've all agreed, Brian, as well, it would be kind of re deep trigger re and re deepening your trauma because it's forcing you unconsciously into a situation where you're disassociating out of your body doing something physically that you aren't fully present in which just continues that trauma pattern right so i'm going to ask you about sex in a minute but i think this is really important for both of you to understand because when you understand this it doesn't mean you don't get triggered in the moment, but it's so much easier not to take things so personally, right? So Stacey, you're like what the frick's the point energy around this may be different if you can really understand

that, oh, he's saying, well, what about my needs? Because I'm talking to the little boy right now. I'm not talking to Brian, my husband anymore. I'm talking to the little boy. Yeah, I think I do know that. And I think I do see when he goes into that because I pointed out. But I think I'm having a hard time with it's I don't know. It's almost like he blames me for that feeling. And I know it's going to happen because I'm the one triggering it. I'm supposed to trigger it now. But either way, I end up being in a bad spot because I. Why are you in a bad spot if he blames you? Why do you have to defend yourself? Why do you have to take on his blame if the blame isn't yours to take? I'm not saying you argue with him and say, no, take it back. I will not take your blame.

But I mean, inside yourself, why do you have to take it on? Why can't you say, oh, there he is, the little boy version, putting blame on me, the blame that he couldn't put on his mother and father. he's putting it on me because he doesn't see what's happening and he's not capable of seeing what's happening right now this isn't about me I'm not going to let this blame land on me right now I'm not going to fight with him because he can't understand right now but I'm not going to accept this blame inside me why does that make you cry I think it's because when I was younger I was the scapegoat for everything I don't like being blamed for things I don't do

things that are not me doing them I don't like being blamed for it so I have to speak up I have to defend myself but I couldn't do that when I was younger I was beaten so I think that's why I don't like when he's blaming me and you don't deserve own yeah that's not mine yeah and that is so I'm so grateful that you're speaking that out loud and I'm hoping that you're hearing this brian because this is another glimpse i don't know to what extent you know this about her history but this is a such a beautiful example you guys are giving of what i see in every single couple thousands and thousands of couples over 30 years that you find someone whose luggage goes with yours you find someone whose wounds are going to trigger yours he turns into a deflecting

This isn't my fault. It's your fault. I don't want to be made bad or wrong because I feel too much shame and not good enoughness. So I'm going to just turn this around and blame you and make you feel bad. That's his trigger wound. And then when he does that, it triggers your trigger wounds around not having a voice to defend yourself. And then you go into victim villain mode like, fuck you, you're not going to blame me. Everyone has always blamed me. I'm going to stand for my little girl and not let you blame me. Okay. And then that just keeps you in the argument that keeps you on the triangle, right? So you may think you're not on the triangle when he's on the triangle in this way, but guess what, right? Okay. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love, and relationship therapist for over 30 years.

And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to Dr. Laura Berman dot com and you'll find it right there on the home page. The quantum sex free course. Check it out. Let me know what you think.

So one option, I'm not suggesting that you let the blame land inside yourself. you can even say instead of defending yourself to someone who can't hear you certainly in that moment you can say I love you and I don't accept that blame from you that's not mine and I think we're both stuck right now and I think we should talk about this another time you can just say okay let's pretend you were holding the hand of you as a little girl and someone was blaming her for doing something and you're the one to stand for her, but the person who's blaming her is not really conscious right now. They can't really hear you or have a rational conversation, right? What would you do in that moment? Would you yell and scream and fight with that person to understand

in front of your little girl? Or what would you do? Well, maybe I would, but I would try and make them understand. And what if they couldn't in that moment? Then I guess I would say tell my little girl it's not the right time for them. We got to go. Right. Right. And you would maybe model for her saying to the person, this isn't her fault. And I know you can't hear that right now, but I'm not going to let you blame her. And I'm also not going to fight with you right now because we're both in a stuck place or you're in a stuck place. Right. But if you wanted to land better, we're stuck okay so let's just table this and you take your little girl's hand and you go and look in the mirror and you say to yourself this is not your fault this is not your blame to take and

we're you know we have to wait until he's in a saner state of mind to have this conversation with now what if because i think that's why i stay stuck i think is because i'm like so i feel deep down inside if he constantly thinks like this then he's going to blame me for the fact of the relationship is not working this is all your fault this is uh our demise of our relationship is because of you that's ultimately why i think i stay there is because i'm trying to fight to show him it's not just me like we're both doing it okay well so he's not on the triangle now let's just check this out with him because i think okay brian and let's have be honest here so we can know what we're dealing with what i hear stacy saying and tell me if i'm correct stacy

is that her fear is that because when you're having these bumps or these arguments and you get into the blame game and she stays stuck trying to defend herself and you get stuck in the you're wrong I'm wrong you're wrong back and forth right that if that on some level maybe even every level but at least some level you really believe that the problems in your relationship are her fault that she's trying to control you and or control the situation and that if the relationship doesn't work out it will be her fault is that true and don't forget the sex part what about the sex part that i'm unable to fulfill his needs because i'm not well that's not what we're talking about you don't have blame games about sex do you oh okay well okay let's put a pin in that for a

second we're going to check that out separately because i want to understand that so sex aside what do you have to say to that brian i ultimately don't think it's fully her responsibility of our relationship working or not i know consciously that there's different things that trigger me and that triggering probably comes from trauma from the past i don't think i have trauma but i guess everybody does to some level but if i'm triggered this stuff which i know consciously i am triggered and i do get triggered and i get stuck in it because stacy helps me get out of it sometimes or at least see that so i'd be an idiot to think that i'm not part of this situation whatsoever uh like it's our relationship it's us together so i do know that what percentage do you

think if you had to guess do you each have maybe she's 60 and i'm 40 i don't know i think that some of her trauma from the past of her sexual trauma has put more hardships on our relationship but i accepted that when we got married i accepted that when i proposed and okay so if we if we can siphon off the sex piece which i know isn't easy to do we're going to tackle sex separately in a second all other things being equal around separate from sex what percentage do you each have a me or yeah yeah i'm asking you brian well for that i i think yeah there's a good portion that i bring to the table but i do believe that that stuff that's happened to her from the past has caused many many no but i mean if we take the you think it's you're talking about general

world blacks i'm not talking about sex now are you talking about her trauma this happened to her no i'm talking about stacy's story that you if your relationship weren't to work out in your mind it would be your fault or you or in your mind the issues that you have in the relationship sex aside we're going to put that in its own container for the moment that the other issues around communication around the kids around life that the things that aren't working in the relationship are more her fault than yours? No, I would take equal blame for it. I think that, unfortunately,

some of those things from the past, yes, I feel like that's tainted the percentage. But if she had not been molested or abused in the way that she was, I do believe we'd have a better relationship, that it would be a little bit cleaner and there wouldn't be so many stuck spots of different things.

But we fight stupidly. But we just, and it's both our fault. I do know that I do stupid low blows. And anyhow, I do think it's like an equal portion if we took that out. Okay. So what's your reaction to that, Stacey, before we dive into the sexual piece? Well, I was going to get a bit upset because it'd be inaccurate. But I think what he just said was right.

It's 50-50. Yeah. We both have something in it that's causing this problem. It's not just one person. we're both trying to be right and she has so much more time to fix it or look at it and see it thank god she does because i don't have the time to do that and uh i'm grateful that she does because you know she can help pull us out of it what's that face for stacy because i'm listening to him say like thank god she does and oh my goodness like you know lucky for her that she's able to

do this and but it doesn't feel like that it feels like i'm the enemy i'm the bad person I just think that you feel like you're the enemy because I paint you as the enemy because then you attack me for my time or my lack of effort when I don't have the same kind of time and effort that you have. It's a different scale. And I feel like as much as you try to make me be accountable and take ownership for things, we're different. And that's why we keep going back and forth of being right. Who's right. Who's right. Like, it's just a stupid argument over and over. And I just feel that Stacey, you're pushing a lot of this stuff on to me. I'm so happy that you have the time to do this, to research it and take a look at such. And thank goodness that she does have that time. But in the same sense that I feel like I'm being thrown under the bus because. Are you saying that you feel like what she's asking of you is unrealistic? To a degree or to the point where we spend so much time arguing that I think that 15 hours, because then I get thrown at like about money, about situation, about where's our finances, where's the sales, where's this? I'm just like, if we're going to argue 15 hours a week, like, but we have to argue 15 hours a week because talking would just be service level and we're just hiding stuff. no you don't have to argue you can have conscious conversations without blame and without arguing it's just that you get triggered in your conversations and that's what leads to an argument one or now both of you one of you gets triggered and then the other's trigger gets

triggered when that one gets triggered and what could have been a 30-minute conscious calm loving conversation turns into an hour-long argument. So that's why, I mean, the stuff that she's researching, I think, I don't know, but I know that part of it is in lieu of being able to go to therapy, she's trying to do bibliotherapy of sorts and trying to get skills around how to resolve these conflicts, right? But what I heard in what you were saying, Brian, is that it feels like she's uncovering all kinds of problems in your relationship that she wouldn't otherwise be need that wouldn't otherwise need to be addressed if she wasn't spelunking around in there is that your story yeah i guess this is part of it that it makes it sound like that yeah

yeah i feel like he is making more complicated than it is i mean of course it requires effort awareness and actually practice. But I feel like there's times that he has that he could actually take exactly like how you framed it, the 10 minutes, the 15 minutes, the 20 minutes, the 30 minutes, the hour for the week. And I feel as though if all of those things were done on my part and his part, I think that it would be totally different in the bedroom. Because to me, all of those things mean or equate to me not feeling important, not feeling seen. If you don't have time for the relationship, that means I'm part of the relationship and I'm not important enough for you to work on it. And if we aren't able to work on how to talk to each other,

I mean, we're going to get triggered. It's very, very easy to do now. But if we keep each other in check of it, if we can try to and do what you're saying where we walk away when it's really, really heated, then I think it becomes a regular habit. And then I find it'll be less of an ordeal to have deep conversations because we're going to keep each other in check or we know what to do when it gets out of hand but i think you'll have less of that and more connection what do you think about what she's saying brian do you understand what she's saying that her story is that if you were to spend both of you were to spend at least an hour a week breaking it up however you wish kind of just really listening to things looking at things understanding better ways to communicate

and then practicing those things together that that would turn the direction of the wheels a little more easily and make things a little less conflicted because part of the conflict well two parts one is that while she's reading and learning different ways of communicating you aren't but also by virtue of you not doing it it gives her the message that the relationship isn't important to you. Does that make sense? Yeah. So he said he's willing to do that. Okay. So let's see what happens if you do that. And if you walk away, it's really about holding yourselves accountable versus holding each other accountable and taking care of yourself. And the only person you can control on the triangle is yourself getting off it. And the other person cannot stay on the

triangle unless they have another person on there with them. They can't because they're barking into a void. Okay. Now let's tackle the intimacy thing, the sex thing, right? So you said that you haven't really been feeling it, but when you don't feel important or seen Stacey, that that creates even more distance and a sense of emotional intimacy, which we all know we've discussed before when a woman doesn't feel, especially a woman who is struggling with her libido or a history of trauma or whatever, but even for a woman with a healthy libido and no history of trauma in a long-term relationship, if she's not feeling that emotional connection and safety with her partner, it's hard to gin up the desire. And in your case, you're not allowed

to do that unless you really actively want to and you're fully embodied while you do it. so my guess is you haven't been having sex am i correct or you have no okay all right and has there been any other kind of non-sexual physical intimacy i think we talked about kissing on the head hugging you know those are initially there was there initially and then i sense there was more like physical touch and connection and and closeness like a week ago or a week and a half ago but then it just kind of you know became the same who was the one that seemed to pull back from that i did i'm always the one initiating all the time for anything of rightfully so just i just felt like there was no reciprocation i was trying to do it too much and then i didn't

feel anything back so how do you know you were doing it too much i feel like i was doing it too much like i felt like there should have been some reciprocation back to show that she still cared like that too as well so if i showed that type of love and care that she would maybe do some of it back i felt like it wasn't reciprocated and then our stupid arguments got in the way and built resentment and so what you wanted but didn't say was for Stacey to reach out to you and give you a hug or a kiss or whatever as well not just receive yours was she was right was she receptive to yours all the time yeah she's always been receptive to any time I did it yeah well she hasn't always been receptive has she well she's never turned away when I try to kiss her she's

never like hit my hand when i was trying to hold it she's done that she's always been receptive from all those times okay so there wasn't a difference in energy between a week or two ago when you were doing that than six months ago when you were reaching out to her in other words yeah like six months ago i was i was a lot more physically connected to her and contact her and you know created that physical emotional connection all right because i hadn't gotten in the way of you not having sex because she was just disassociating okay oh but for now i guess it's just it's weird it's just we're not doing that sex anymore and then kind of like so i'm on the team i'm on the bus i'm yeah okay everything's cool like i can still show her that

i love her in just those different physical ways but then i guess the novelty wears off when i it'll have it back and then the naftu wears off as arguments go on and and so and and you didn't say anything to her like i would love for you what you wanted right i would love for you to reach out and kiss or hug me sometimes too yes i did not say to her i did not did you know that he wanted that stacy no has she ever initiated stuff with you like that she has been very brief like at certain points in the past there's certain the odd very very very very very odd time but she has before yeah but not not in any kind of consistent way so what you were expecting was not something that had ever really been consistently in your life before it's never really been consistent yeah

Correct. Yeah. Okay. So it's not it's not realistic of me to expect that either. Right. But but it's totally realistic for you to want that. Yeah, it is. But I guess I was willing to not have it as much before because I guess we were still having sex. So I felt like that was in place of it or that could be okay with it. But. so what you're saying is what you would really like is mutual affection yeah i would i would like to feel like i'm wanted to as well like um so stacy hearing that what's your reaction to that are you open to that to first of all you didn't know that he really wanted it both ways you just noticed that he stopped right but now that you know that which we can understand he got triggered His rejection traumas got triggered. He was thinking, what's the point? I'm, you know, she's not reciprocating. I'm just she's just like receiving this, but doesn't really want it. You know, probably made up some stories. So what is your reaction to the request? Would you be willing to reach out to me and non-sexual physical affection ways? Yeah, I guess I would. And I think I have in this very recent past, like just, you know, stopped him and hugged him. I have done that. I think I can remember two occasions that I have between the last time we talked. And I was only for a hug, I think. But I would be lying if I didn't say that it's kind of hard for me to do that when, you know, if I'm blamed or if I don't feel important, I won't be able to do that.

so i don't know maybe that's why i don't it's because i feel sometimes you know i get blamed for things when i'm trying to help and i'm not viewed as the person helping or then i don't feel that i it's almost like i feel like that's the way i'm being shown love or rather not shown love So, but both can be at the same time. He, you can hold just like you can hold the awareness that he's being insensitive about something or wrong about something and still feel love for him. Right. And still have deep care for him. He can still see you as being wrong in a situation and still loving you and wanting to be connected to you and also pissed off in the moment. You can be both and. So then maybe, could it be then that, you know, for me in the background, I have this abandonment issue. And I feel like if that's the way he's thinking, I can't see him thinking two things at the same time. So if he's thinking about the negative stuff about me, then eventually I'm going to be out the door. yeah then he's not right well that's and that part is on you learning to hold it's going to be so much easier for you to hold the blame when it comes or hold the disconnect or whatever it is

when it comes if you can really start to which with that with abandonment trauma is really hard right but i know you already can see it with the mind of the woman you are now you already know what I'm about to tell you, which is nothing is black and white. I mean, think about your children. They can piss the shit out of you. They can act like high holy terrors. They can be the most insensitive, unempathetic, entitled meanies in the world. And you can be pissed as hell at them and still unequivocally love them. Now you didn't have that experience in your family of origin because your parents didn't have the emotional intelligence or self-regulation to give you that, okay?

But that doesn't mean they didn't love you. They just couldn't, they had a thimble full of love instead of a big gulp of love to give you, right? But that's where your trauma is. And so they weren't capable of modeling that for you or giving that, but you know, both because you've experienced it with your children and because you're an intelligent emotionally mature woman you know that you can love someone

deeply be committed to them deeply and be pissed off as hell at them true so what's happening when you get into those states and it sounds like you both do it's like these two little kids going oh and crossing your arms being like if you're not gonna give me a hug i'm not gonna give you one either and the other ones and the other ones saying if you're not gonna be tell me how wonderful i am and you're gonna be mad at me then i'm gonna be mad at you stacy just said that she just literally said that today i'm just joking so that i'm just throwing hair in there but you are saying that to each other right and you're getting caught up on this thing stacy that i can't let him blame me even if i don't accept the blame and i know he's on the triangle because he's gonna abandon me if

He blames me too much, and I don't fight with him to convince him that I don't deserve the blame, even though I'm talking to a crazy person, and it's going to require an hour and a half of yelling and disconnecting and doing damage to each other for me to convince him, because if I don't, then he's going to abandon me. Sounds silly, but... No, it's, I mean, it's just your trigger, right? I'm just showing you what you're doing, so you can recognize it and maybe choose something different the next time.

not every time, you're still going to get stuck in the pattern, but this is how we start to change gears and change the direction of the wheels is to say like, oh, here's what's happening. Let me see if I can slow that roll a little bit. Let me see if I can step out of it. Let me see if I can interrupt the pattern and not succumb to the same triggers. Oh, I'm noticing, I'm feeling like he's, I'm getting that story in my head that he's going to abandon me. So is that absolutely true? Can I be sure that that's true? No. If it does happen, I'll survive it. And I can't talk to him about this right now. So I'm going to go work out. I'm going to go dance crazy to my favorite song. I'm going to go and take a bath. I'm going to do something that fills me up and

that helps me shift. And then I'm going to come back to him and see if we, you know, after a few hours, assuming he's had some time to shift and his mood seems different, I'm going to go to him and tell him I love him with an open heart and tell him what I really want and forget the blame. I don't need to be right. If I need to be right, I'm on the triangle. That make sense to both of you? Yeah. And so Stacey, I will call on you to more consciously give him affection. Okay. Quite frankly, not necessarily when you're actively pissed at him. Good. Hug him now.

Not necessarily when you're actively pissed at him, but when you, but when you are feeling the reason you are not wanting to hug and kiss him when you feel as he's blaming you is because you are defending yourself against his abandonment. And because that's your story. If he blames you, he's going to leave you. Right. So when you feel like you've been blamed for something, not only can you not shrug that off, but you withdraw from the relationship as a way to sabotage it before you get sabotaged.

Yeah. And then that just sets up a self-fulfilling prophecy because now you really are pushing him away when he wasn't even going somewhere. And it's one of the best ways to repair. I mean, I know hugging can be loaded for you, but if I'm arguing with my husband and I'm starting to, because I have abandonment wounds too, and I'm starting to feel it, I will say to him, no matter how mad he is at me or I am at him, like, can we just hug for a second? Like, I just need to be reassured that I'm loved. You know, I'm not saying that, well, you know,

because hugging is a little loaded for you and your trauma history and could bring other things up. But I'm just saying that as it can help when there's a disconnect to remind each other, I love you. And for him, the physical peace is such a big piece of how he feels love. So even if you're pissed at him a little bit, not super pissed, even if you're feeling like he might be blaming you, that doesn't mean he's abandoning you. The reason he's blaming you is because he can't be with his own in that moment. He can't be with his own responsibility. It's not because he doesn't want to be with you. It's because he doesn't want to be with himself. That's going to be tough. But yeah, I know. I get it. It's not my stuff. It's his stuff. Yes. But it's so hard

to see in the moment. I know because his baggage goes with yours. Isn't that cute? No. We're so perfect for each other. See? You are. Yeah. All right. And you were just saying, right? Like, did I pick the right partner? I guess you did. You did. And stop saying those relationship threatening things to a wife who is afraid of abandonment. See, you hear me? No hitting below the belt. I mean, I know you will, but really try not to hit below the belt. Okay. That means not throwing financial quote unquote failures or issues in his face and not throwing abandonment in her face and no failure jabs in his face no abandonment jabs in her face are you laughing because you know i'm right yeah shit does she was she listening earlier to us holy crap i said

divorce like once or twice oh my god no no you can't go there you have to create if you want things to get better you have to really commit to safety between you there you're stuck together no more threats of that at least for the foreseeable future okay how are you both feeling go for it no i'll watch you to go i know i'm feeling i'm feeling a little relieved like a little bit relieved yeah i'm feeling like a lot of the wasted time arguing could have potentially been saved if we had that hour meeting or hour relationship therapy

session on our own every single week. Okay. Because maybe that's all the disconnect that was missed and all the different shit kept coming up and it just spirals into more stuff. So that's a better source of action. So your marching orders are not to hit below

the belt in those ways. For Brian to come up with an hour, however you want to in the schedule, in read, like sacred, whatever it's going to be. And if you need to change it, that 30 minutes from 2.30 to 1.30, that's fine. You can reschedule it a little bit, but you can't abandon it. At least an hour a week of reading, listening, or engaging around relationship improvement, improving communication. And when one of you is on the triangle, and it's mostly so far until he catches

up with the reading and the integration Stacey is going to recognize when Brian's on this triangle then you are going to disengage in a loving way and come back in an open-hearted loving way asking if he's open to hearing what you would really love or what would make things really good for you or whatever else can I just confirm am I supposed to say that this is not my blame you can do that too if he starts going into blame you can say i'm not receiving your blame this isn't about blame we're stuck right now so let's just take some time okay i do not accept your blame yeah okay if it's not your fault obviously yeah all right guys i'll talk to you soon okay yes thank you all right be well

I went to the doctor Said I'm crazy for your love