Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - This Too Shall Pass

Episode Date: July 26, 2023

Loss in life comes in a lot of different shapes, sizes, and forms and each one of us will experience multiple losses over a lifetime. And how we process those losses makes all the difference.  In this Language of Love Session, I get into the loss of the empty nest, when our children leave home. I spend time with Charisse, who is facing the loss of her youngest as he prepares to go to college. She’s struggling as it is, but also feeling pulled deeper into grief because this loss is triggering old losses that are now coming to the surface. We get into the complexities of the “empty nest,” how to navigate the complexities of that loss, and what to do when old losses are triggering and complicating new ones.  In this episode you’ll learn: Understanding loss in whatever way it manifests How new losses can trigger old ones How to transition as our children leave home, remaining their parent, but also learning how to become their friend. Dr. Laura Berman Language of Love Podcast Laura Berman Instagram – Dr Laura Berman Facebook – Dr Laura Berman Youtube.com – Dr Laura Berman  Charise Instagram Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Charisse, welcome to the show. Tell me what's going on.

It's funny. When I told you I would do this and it was like something appeared, and it was like, oh, here, here you go. Yeah. It's this realization that my own coping to law, early loss has made me into a person, an adult person who moves away. This is a new realization of my own that I move away when I see loss coming, when I see an ending coming that I sort of move away. You know, my very wise therapist told me, she's like, you know, you're dissociating, You're dissociating. And that's, that's an extension of it to stem for their hurt or whatever. But it's interesting because I'm a mom of a, of a boy who is going off to college and, and I have three other daughters. I have three daughters as well. He's the youngest,

but I've been finding myself in this space where I am very consciously trying to stay present, stay in this moment that we are having together, but it's hard. It's hard. And when you've dealt with loss before, and this isn't the same kind of loss, this is a different kind. And I know you're, I know you're making me start to cry. I know, you know, this lane. Yeah. Right. This is, this is a loss that is, should be celebrated in 99% of the ways, but it's still a loss. Yeah. You know, I'm sort of, um, taking in all of the wisdom I can gather to navigate this and to consciously stay in it with him when I feel myself going, because my default would be like, oh, you're an adult now. Okay. Okay. Go on. Bye-bye. And I don't want to do that. I don't

want to do that because they still need you in different ways, but I'm finding it's really hard to not default. Yeah. Yeah. And so I have so many things to say. And as you can see, you're making me really emotional too, because A, I relate, but B, full disclosure, Sharice and I don't really know each other. We have met before briefly, and I'm saying this for my peeps here, but we have a very deep point of connection because Sharice's son, who she's referring to, Jacob, is one of my son Jackson's besties. And so I know Jacob pretty well, and I know what an amazing, and I was just telling Sharice

before we started recording what an amazing patient kind thoughtful cool guy he is so I just wanted to mention that point of connection and also that like I feel this so deeply as as you know because both of our and I didn't realize that he was your youngest so both of us are facing not only them we are babies leaving but the empty nest which is in and of itself I so downplayed in my mind. I thought, you know, my identity has never come. Like I've never sourced the meaning of my purpose in life. I mean, obviously it's a huge part of my life and one of my most significant roles, but I'm not like, I've never been a stay-at-home mom whose purpose has been her kids. And so I thought like, I'm going to be fine. Oh my God. So freaking hard.

And I've been downplaying it as well. I, you know, I'm like, please, I have freedom. I have, you know, like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to travel. I'm going to, and it's, but, but you can't get away from what it's, there's a whole time period in our lives that's coming to an end. Yeah, it's such a loss. And it's so interesting to me because, well, let me just unpack for a second because I want to fully understand what you mean when you say, I think I understand. But when you say you go away and you say that your therapist kind of, you know, referred to that as a form of disassociation, which I can totally understand the way, you know, because there's different ways of kind of, quote unquote, going away. That was the term you use. Like one is to kind of shut down emotionally where you're present with them, but your heart is a little bit closed. Another or really closed. Another is to be like it's interesting because I think that's what our kids do. Like my big issue with Jax and I have the opposite response. Like I'm so codependent that if you start am I recovering codependent? But if you trigger my wounds, you know, like it's like this is I will start getting really clingy. you know i do the opposite and he's the one who's like disassociating and being like get

you know i'm out of here like you're a loser get away from it you know which is normal like i i think that's i mean i don't like it and i don't think it has to be so harsh but i think it's normal for them especially like the closer they feel to you they more the more they have to kind of demonize you i don't know if jacob's doing that but no but he's number four so i've i've I've definitely experienced that. Yeah. And I've had more of a response of the codependency, I think, with my daughters. Yeah, with him.

That's interesting. And who was the person, if you don't mind me asking, who was the person that died? It was early, much earlier in your life, I get the sense, but it was a big loss. It was multiple losses. The first one coming, that sort of, I think, set the ball in motion. The first one was my first bestie, who my grandmother had a change of life baby, and he and I were toddlers together. So we often shared the same crib. We would like trade off bottles like one of us would have juice.

One of us would have milk, suck, suck, switch. We had twin language. We were as close as can be. And he died when we were toddlers. oh so some of my first memories are of that but it was the 60s and no one was thinking of a little tiny person you know they just had the idea that well she'll forget about it right yeah they're just little ones and then my first love also uh was killed in a plane crash crash so there's this sort of you can be gobsmacked at any time yes yeah 100 100 and I also I'm I'm a teen of the 80s

and sort of came of age in 1980s New York and so the people who I knew and befriended and loved and they're all gone. Like they're all gone. So I carry that with me. Oh no. I was just going to say, so to answer your question, like, how does it manifest? It's how do I go away? I think sometimes it's, it's by giving adulthood too soon. Like, oh, okay. Well, you don't need me for this or you don't need me. You know, it's, it's sort of removing myself or, you know, there've been times when it's just like, I dove into work because it's so, that needs me. So I'm going to, you know, that I can always, you know, I have 25 jobs, you know, like I can always dive in there and it's an escape and I'm realizing it's an escape. I'm trying to also figure out ways that

are more purposeful and more in alignment with where I want to be rather than just doing these defaults. You mean when it comes to investing your energy and into a different kind of baby, which I think, by the way, is a smart thing to do for all of us in all areas, wherever you are in letting your kids go as parents. It's a really valuable thing to have your physical babies, but also to have, whether you're a stay-at-home mom or a full-time working mom, to have those areas in your life that do feel like your babies, your passion projects, your things that you, whether they earn money or not. But what does being present with Jacob for you and in your relationship look like? Us talking eyeball to eyeball, staying with his stories, his long

winded stories. Yeah. It's staying in it with him and also not sort of prematurely pushing him away. Yeah. I have to work on it. Like it's something that I have to work on. yeah which is so powerful because the work on it in and of itself is the healing right because as you are in that discomfort have you shared any of this with him a little bit but not tons mostly because i've just been watching him sort of go through the emotional ups and downs of school ending and what is that going to mean with friendships and you know all of that stuff that I haven't sort of wanted to also keep upon him my stuff. And also there was something that he said that I was like,

I have to tread lightly with what I share of mine because I don't want to burden him. I don't want him to feel like he has to take care of me. That he said something to me because he's going to school in New York. And so he said, well, you're going to be in New York all the time, right? Like you're going to come out there all the time.

And it was, there was something in his voice that I was like, okay, he still needs me yeah to keep that connection and to know that that's not going away I'm not just leaving him out you know in the world I'm sort of untethered so yeah I've been trying to and perhaps I should share more with him I guess I've been I kind of had it in my head that when we traveled this summer that I would take that sort of one-on-one time to share more of myself and when I wasn't feeling so freaking raw. Yeah. Well, good luck with not feeling raw. So no way for that. No way for that. But I do think and I'm saying this as if I didn't know Jacob, but also knowing him,

I don't feel like I know him deeply, you know, but I know him pretty well. I've watched him. I watch all the kids that come over. I partly because I find it fascinating, partly because I'm making sure nobody's getting into trouble. And partly, you know, just because I'm curious and I'm a people watcher, you know, and nothing is more fun for me than watching a bunch of teenagers interact. He can hold a lot. And I think it's all about and he's very emotionally attuned and intuitive and emotionally mature in many ways. I mean, I'm not saying he's not also a teenage boy, but, you know, he's so I think it's all in how you frame it to him. Right. So So I get that, like, you absolutely don't want to say, like, listen, I really want to pull away from you right now and push you out of the nest because of my own wounds.

Right. Like that may trigger his own fears. Right. And you also don't want to say, you know, you wouldn't say this, but something along the lines of like, I'm so broken, I can't handle you. You know, where he felt like he needed to hold all your shit for you. Right. He probably would. Yes, I'm not saying he should. So just to frame it from the standpoint of, you know, I am noticing something in myself. So I'll use myself as an example. I'm not like I said, I'm on the opposite end of the continuum to you. So I've been like Jackson, which I'm so I'm ashamed to say this, but I'm saying it because

we're taking shame out of this and we're claiming how freaking hard this is. Right. So I all of the trauma that's been coming up for me around Jackson leaving is not just grief about his brother and him leaving and whatever else. It is about my dad and his emotional abandonment of me because Jackson is my one boy who's really, really similar to my dad in a lot of really beautiful ways. but also he never sits still. He's always going a mile a minute. He wants to be everywhere but here. And the minute he's finishing one thing, he's making plans for the next thing. So that's never bothered me. I always thought it was kind of cute or whatever. And the only thing it bothered me about is that he will use that to run from his feelings so he doesn't have

to sit and feel anything. But whatever, he'll get there eventually. I'm not going to force him to be there. I forced him enough after his brother died, like he, you know, whatever. But I have like this major abandonment where I'm like furious with him that he doesn't want to be around and that he's spending every night out. And that, and I'm like, I'm on the one hand holding this awareness that that's ridiculous. But at the same time, I'm watching myself behave toward him with resentment and guilt and things that like, I'm like, ew, why are you doing this? You know? So I finally, and he's like, mom, like, what is wrong with you? You're so negative. You're criticizing me all the time. And you're making up all these stories about me. I said, you know,

so I finally went to him and I was like, you know what, Jackson, this is not about you. Like, I really want to own the fact that I want you to fly. I want you to go off. I'm so proud of you. I'm so excited for you. And at the same time, because of reasons that have nothing to do with you, shit's coming up for me about my dad, about Sammy, that you are not responsible for, that you don't need to hold. You know, there are a few things like just if you just made a little bit of effort to like say hello to me when you came in the house, that would mean a great deal. But even that, it's not about that. And I just want to own that and out that so that, first of all, if I get reactive again, you know that it's not about you. You don't have to internalize that. But also because we're now evolving into an adult-to-adult relationship. And if we're going to have an adult-to-adult relationship, we have to be honest about what's really going on. So I think in that spirit, you could say something similar to Jacob, like, look, I'm so excited for you. I am so excited to come to New York to visit you and to, you know, continue to shepherd you to whatever extent you want me and welcome me.

but I'm also, I wanted to share it with you because I'm noticing I'm having like this weird trauma reaction around loss. And there's a part of me that just want to, you know, I wouldn't say that wants to run, but like that wants to stick my head in the sand and disconnect from everyone and everything, you know, where it's not really specific to like, I want to abandon you, you know, but where you're kind of saying like, I'm struggling and you don't have to do anything about it. Right. That's the message to them. Like there's nothing you need to hold here. there's nothing you need to do differently. I am outing this to you because you're so attuned and sensitive. I have this story that you may be sensing something. And also kind of

like what I said to Jackson, also our relationship is evolving to you're becoming an adult. Now you're flying the nest. Like obviously I'll always be your mother. I'll always take care of you as much as you need me to. But at the same time, this is when our relationship can start evolving to an adult to adult relationship, to more of a friendship. And friends share their shadows with each other, especially if it's affecting their interactions. So that's why I'm doing it. And I think what I found and what, you know, not only in my situation, but in all these kinds of situations, whether it's with a child or with a friend or with a partner, is that when you out the elephant in the room that you're trying to kind of work around and work with, unbeknownst

to the other person, that elephant goes from like 800 pounds to 100 pounds. You know, it gets so much lighter, gets so much more cumbersome. It gets so much less of a hold over you when you bring that into the light. I love that. Even hearing you say that, I sort of started down that path with him, even with, they love all my kids. I've always written stuff to them because I'm a writer. And so my graduation letter to him, he came home graduation night and he's like, where's my letter? And I was like, okay, well, I haven't finished it yet. Give me a minute. But he read it. I gave it to him and he read it the next day. And that was part of what was in that was that, you know, our relationship is changing. I'm always going to be your mom,

but we're also now on a path to friendship. And that's a lovely thing as well to sort of add to the mix, but I do like the way that you have sort of framed that in this conversation. It feels very natural to have that conversation. As most of you know, for the past several years, I've been on a pretty intense grief journey and it's been a path of healing. I've shared lots of that healing with you and lots of the healing resources that I found. and I am so thrilled to announce that I am doing my first ever retreat for grieving mamas. So if you or someone you love is a mama

who has lost a child in any way, at any stage, at any age, I would love for you to come join me at 1440 Multiversity in the Redwoods near Santa Cruz, California for four amazing days of beautiful, uplifting community and healing. We've got David Kessler. We've got Paul Selig. We've got Catherine Woodward Thomas.

We've got me. We've got body work. We've got organic food, beautiful rooms. Go to 1440.org. Check it out. It's right there on the homepage. I really hope you can join us. And I also want to say to you something you said about even saying hello to you when he walks in, that it's so interesting.

I don't know if this helps you at all. But to me, I instantly got this, this sense that you're serving a purpose. And when he doesn't say hi to you, he's operating in the safety of your love where he can do that. And that's kind of like in a, for moms, it's a twisted way, but like, I get that immediately that it's like, you're fulfilling something. Cause he knows you're there waiting for the hello. Oh yeah.

That there's something kind of, I don't know. There's something. Empowering. Yeah, something empowering and him being able to withhold what I need and know that I won't reject him when he treats me like shit. You're welcome. I could be your stomping ground. No problem. But, you know, my oldest son and my husband has been trying to call me to consciousness about this. He's like, listen, you know, my oldest son is about to be 27. Right. So he, you know, he was much older than the two younger ones. Jackson and Sammy was 14 months older, but they were still really little when my oldest

was leaving for college. And he did the same thing. I mean, in a different way, he was a high, holy asshole. I was like, by the time that he was going to college, I was secretly saying, get the fuck out of here. I was so ready for him to leave because he was so nasty. And I was also aware that he was being nasty so he could separate. So my husband would get like pissed off.

And he was reminding me of this recently. He was like, why aren't you giving Jackson the same grace? Like you used to, I was upset and used to explain it to me and why this was him disconnecting and, and individuating and how he needed to do this and how it, and he has like by the, you know, within a few years he was back. I mean, we are so close now and we always were close up until that point. But now, you know, we're close like adult child and parent close and we have all these amazing conversations.

And I was like, well, part of it was because I had these two babies at home. And also I was just like, right. This is like my last baby. And he's treating me like shit. My oldest was home and he came upon me crying because I've been crying all the time lately about this. And he was like, mom, you're looking at this all differently. You have to under, I was like, but he's so nice to that one and this one and he's spending

all his time. And he's like, but you have to understand that it, it's a compliment to you. You know, he was like, remind me of that. It's a compliment because he's so secure in your love that he doesn't feel like he needs to treat you well. And listen, that's not, even if you have the logic, even if you have the intelligence to take all of that in and be able to see it clearly. I have two of my daughters with that.

It's, it's fucking hard. Yeah, it is. It's it's hard when it when it's in the moment happening. It's so hurtful, you know, hurtful, especially because I'm like part of me, you know, the Jewish mother in me wants to be like, I gave you my body and I've taken care of you all of these years and I've sacrificed everything. And this is how you treat me. Like, that's what the one inside me is saying. But obviously, I think a little bit of that ekes out despite all of my best efforts. But for the most part, I keep that to myself. But he feels the energy of it. So I think it's interesting that you and I are facing the same thing.

And I think this is true for anyone out there who's facing a child's like one of those big milestones, especially them leaving home for the first time, is that we're experiencing the same thing, you and I, but just in opposite sides of a coin, right? Like my instincts because of the way he's behaving toward me and also maybe the dynamics of our relationship, my instinct is to cling and hold and if not literally hold emotionally inside myself, not really be able to let go. And your tendency is like, let me just throw the baby in the bathwater out and put my attention over there. Yeah. But you know what? It's funny because I feel like I push myself into that so that I'm not, you know, I just have like this image that you're not holding onto his

ankle. You know, like I'm doing this so that I don't do that because I do feel that, you know, he comes on, what are you doing? What are you doing today? Where are you going to go? It's like this, I have to fight that. So I throw myself into the other thing. And it's like, well, both extremes don't really serve me. I don't. Neither one does. And I think that the freedom comes from two things. One, outing it, like I said, in a thoughtful and supportive and age appropriate way. But also one of the things that I've been connecting with a lot through this, And I think it's true for both of us for all of us who are going through this the reason it's so hard and so scary Yes, it brings up old grief and old feelings of loss

The loss feels like it might be real. No, I go in my mind and i'm like, well, he's just going for he's gone 45 minutes I'm still gonna say no. He won't come home. He won't he'll find other things to do. He'll never come home again He won't want to be around me He won't he's gonna have kids and he's not gonna want to bring his kids around and he's gonna go off with the girlfriend or the wife's family. And I'm never like, I go all the way down that rabbit hole and we all have that. And I think it comes down to an exercise, an amazing opportunity to really strengthen the faith muscle. Because what it all, I finally realized that what it all comes down to is that I don't have faith. I don't have faith in this moment when I'm in these scared places. I don't

have faith in the strength of our connection. I don't have faith in him and the kind of human being he is and the kind of emotional connection he's capable of and wants, right? I don't have faith in our connection. And I don't have faith in spirit, God, Jesus, whatever you want to call it. For me, it's spirit or holy oneness. I don't have faith that I am being deeply held and supported, not only inside myself and in what life's going to look like after he leaves, but supported in my relationship with him. And that whatever is unfolding is for my highest good and his highest good. Yeah, both of your highest good. And I would add, I'm sitting here nodding my head in agreement with everything that you're saying. And also faith in, for me,

what popped into my head, faith that I am a lovable person and worthy of the love of this beautiful human being. And it wasn't, it wasn't a transactional thing that went on between us for the past 18 years. It was love. Is that your story? Yeah, I think that is, that's, I think that's my story. Oh, that breaks my heart because there is no fucking way you could have raised that beautiful boy if you were a mother of transaction. Right. Because his soul, I know there are those mothers out there. Maybe you had one, which is why you fear it. I don't know. But you don't become a young man who's capable of that kind of emotional attunement and intimacy and connection and confidence. Right. He's so self-possessed and confident. You don't grow into that.

without feeling completely held in love and accepted for who you are. I don't care what your surroundings are. If you don't have that or what your education is or what kids like, I'm saying that because I know personally from seeing him that he had a really, really, really loving home. But that is that's faith in your own lovability. Right. That's really Yeah. For you, it's that I'm not worth anything but the transaction I'm offering food, shelter, rides, whatever. I wasn't that kind of mother. I didn't do any of that stuff. My husband did most of the cooking rides and transactional stuff. I was like more of the fun and emotional support and thanks with them kind of stuff. But for me, it's more like you are choosing others over. You don't want me. You don't want me. Yeah. Like I'm not worth it to you. I'm not someone who you want a relationship with. And a lot of this is actually even the reason I know it's about my dad is because my dad would abandon and was willing to abandon. He came back, but he would abandon the family for an affair. And there was a one point where he kept kind of because we didn't understand it back then. It didn't exist because once again, I was raised in the 80s like you are. He was a sex addict, but I didn't understand that. I don't think he understood that. I don't think he knowing that. Right. I didn't understand that. So when my little 18 year olds, you know, the same age Jackson is now, went to him and said, look, if you keep going back to this woman and destroying my mom this way and devastating our family like this, I'm throwing down the gauntlet.

I am never going to speak to you again. And in my little girl's mind, like I actually believe that would work. And it didn't. He knows. Right. It may be maybe because he didn't really believe me, maybe because he was an addict. And I know now I didn't know then that every addict loves their addiction more. They can't love anyone much as they love their addiction. So it wasn't about my lovability. It wasn't about him abandoning me. It was about him abandoning himself, right? But watching Jackson behave in similar ways is bringing up all those old feelings. And so what I think these opportunities are, and I always call them AFGEs, another fucking growth experience, is that it's an opportunity to heal another layer of the onion, right? I know, I'm sure

you've done tremendous healing around grief and loss and fear of suddenly being gobsmacked and having what you love ripped away without being able to say goodbye and without being able to integrate it. And that, you know, you like I know, unfortunately, that nothing is guaranteed. And we don't know what's happening a minute from now, much less an hour from now. Right. And all of that is going to come up around any time there's a loss and every milestone, even positive ones, every change, even positive change is also a loss because it's an ending of the old. And so I think for you, it's really, it's an opportunity to heal another layer of the onion of grief and loss and fear that I'm not worth more than what I supply in the daily acts of living.

Which the woman you are knows that you're worth a lot more than that, right? But when we're in our shadow parts and our triggered parts and our fearful and abandoned parts, that's where we go. So this lovely AFGE, you're welcome, is here to invite you, you know, to be with those parts of yourselves and to hold them and to hold space for them and to allow them to express in more functional ways, not on top of our kids, but in our own time. Right. And to be there, to allow them to express and allow them to be heard and to also allow them to heal and to honor them and acknowledge them and share their existence with our kids, which is really what I think I was describing when I was basically explaining to Jackson that what was at play was what I like to call and what I often refer to in my house is like a thorn was touched and an emotional thorn was touched. you know, those invisible thorns. So claiming that, you know, is not only modeling for them taking that emotional responsibility, but it's also acknowledging the existence of that part of yourself. And they get really loud when we don't acknowledge them and they get a lot quieter when we do. Yeah, that's 100% true. You know, it's interesting just, you know, as with a lot of our lives, but there's something about this that there's a silent, there's a sort of silent

suffering of moms in so many ways. And this is even just, you know, having this short conversation between the two of us sort of frames it differently. It makes it feel, it makes it feel as I'm about to say this, I'm thinking don't make El Ruiz, you know, four agreements, like don't take it personal. It feels, it feels less personal. It puts a template over it that it's like, this is a life stage. This is a step, you know, this is a growth moment and yeah. And it doesn't feel as raw. Good. Yeah. I think that's really knowing Pema Chodron, who is a famous Buddhist monk. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love her. One of the prayers, I don't, you may know the name of it, but one of the prayers she often does that I love so much is, you know, when you're

in pain, when you're in suffering to also, you know, to be with that, but to also and acknowledge that, but also to simultaneously bless and send love to the millions of people who are feeling exactly the way you are now. There's something so I use that inside myself all the time because it's so easy to feel isolated in our pain, which then adds a huge layer of shame on top of the pain. Like it must be something personal to me or it's about me and my fucked upness or I'm all alone in this. Right. Some variation or combination of all of that. And so when you remember and I think that's a really important point, you know, it's not only remembering that there are millions of other people that are experiencing our unique pain of loss or grief or grief getting triggered. But there are millions and millions of mothers who are right now have seniors who just graduated high school and are about to leave home and are experiencing one end of my continuum or yours or somewhere in between. Right. Either wanting to shut down and pull away themselves or holding on for dear life and not letting anyone pull anywhere.

You know, one is working. Right. So there's huge relief in knowing that it's not personal to us. It's not about a shortcoming or this is the kind of shit that's going to trigger your shit. It just is. And yeah, I think it's really helpful to to talk about it. I do too so thank you thank you thank you thank you for coming on and for birthing that sweet boy who's going to do amazing things in the world I think so too I think and yours too I love his energy I was smiling when you're talking about him because it's like we don't have the house we in Chicago we had the house where everybody came to so I'm smiling when you know you say like you're watching I that was one of my favorite things is yeah was watching kids because they got to be under the microscope right underneath my eyes. Yeah. Now I, I have been so grateful to you for providing that house for my son and yeah. And it's, you know, I get to hear the phone calls

and the, all of the stories and stuff before and after, and, you know, you've raised this amazing, beautiful soul, amazing, beautiful soul who, you know, I see my son just, he adores him and the talks that they have and stuff like that. So I just think, you know, job well done. First of all, both of us pat ourselves on the back, well done. And, you know, cause we don't always get to do that, but yeah, job well done. And, and also, yeah, we're, we know that we're out here. We know that we're out here. We are out here. None of us are suffering alone. And this too will pass. It's about staying conscious, holding yourself through it and being honest, right? Not getting caught in the thorn, but claiming the thorn that's there, owning it, not making it your kid's responsibility to hold it for you. But calling yourself to consciousness with them as a witness, I think, can be unbelievably powerful and a beautiful model for what's possible in their own lives, holding themselves accountable.

You know, maybe not at this. At least mine will not hold himself accountable at this point, but eventually, eventually he will. And I think I've told you this when we've spoken a few times that Jacob is a really good, he's a really responsible guy and a really good calming influence. And Jackson's just like bouncing all over the place. And, you know, and, and Jacob's just like, cool. Yeah. All right. I'll go get the phone.

You forgot Jackson. Fine. Okay. Yep. You know, he's just like super patient with him. That's amazing to me because at home, Jacob is like to his sisters, how you are describing Jackson is Jacob. He's doing it for someone else.

Like it was done. That's very sweet. so that's kind of that's kind of cool that's cool to know so yeah thank you well thank you thank you for coming on and for being so open and sharing your struggle and service to helping others with the same one because we are all and for making me cry because you know i'm good at that i'm good at that i was just gonna say to be continued i can't wait to see what these what these boys do and I just keep us posted on how that conversation goes that you have with him and I hope that you have some amazing memories that you make on your travels this summer before

he goes thank you thank you and he's already got his swim trunks apparently for your for a day at the beach when you guys are at the beach is this is this a thing that's happening I have no idea are we going to the beach? I don't know. Jackson informs me of my plans. I don't know. I'm only part of the plans as far as an adult is required to rent a car or a house or something else. And then I'm allowed to be there. I mean, that's kind of what we do, right? I described to one of my friends that it was, you know, once they get to this stage, our job is to just set the table and leave the room. And so setting the table is getting the house or getting the car or get, you know like whatever and then you leave the room yeah metaphorically so yeah that sounds about

right that sounds about right peeking through the crack in the door and watching where no one can see me yeah yes exactly be unobtrusive at all times I mean it's it I was a younger mom with my girls and so this is a I think I was treated a little differently you were cooler yeah it was much cooler than I'm not cool anymore. I'm not cool anymore. I think you're very cool. And I keep telling Jackson that he has no idea how cool I am. One day he doesn't. He doesn't. He really doesn't. But he will find out. He's about to find out. He absolutely is. So I have a podcast that's coming up. There's a friend of mine who used to be a news person. She's been on CNN. Now she's back in LA, Michaela Pereira and another one of our friends, but we have a podcast and it's called

The Bubbly Life. And it's all about just curating joy and curious of our lives. But I know that we had sort of thrown your name into the mix. So we may have somebody reaching out to you because whether you know it or not, you're sort of paying homage to moving through life and still grabbing moments of joy, no matter what is coming up or what comes across our plate, inspires so many women, so many women. So. Yeah, no, I would love to come on. And where can people listen to it? When does it launch and where can they hear? We will not launch until later this fall. Michaela has a new TV series that's going to be starting in the fall. And so we'll launch around the same time. All right. Where can people go to find you in the meantime so they can be kept abreast?

Probably Instagram is best, which is just my first name under slash and then my last name, Cherise Dudisville. Yeah, that's probably the best place to keep tabs on me. All right. So we'll put that in the show notes, guys. And you can follow Cherise and also keep abreast of her podcast and see what she's up to and see little Jacob leave for college. yes yes i'm sure that will be a topic i'm sure that will be a topic well to be continued while they're gone we'll go ecstatic dancing on the beach or something after they 100 percent Until the doctor said I'm crazy