Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Unleashing Your Inner Strength: Healing After Narcissistic Abuse

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

Have you ever thought about what it's like to live under the same roof with someone who once promised to love and protect you, but now subjects you to a relentless storm of emotional jabs, verbal assaults, gaslighting and manipulation? Welcome back to another Language of Love Session. Today, I'm chatting with Mia, who's on a journey of healing and self-discovery after leaving an emotionally abusive relationship with a narcissist. We're diving into her  journey of self-discovery and navigating the challenges of sharing space with her ex while sorting out the drama of divorce. Setting boundaries is a big part of our conversation today—so crucial for reclaiming your confidence after a rough patch. I'm reminding Mia (and you, too!) about the power of letting those pent-up emotions out. It's like clearing out your closet—you've got to make space for the new by letting go of the old! Here is what we explore: The emotional toll of narcissistic relationships How to recover from codependency and reclaim your own truth (again and again) The steps to leaving an abusive relationship Expressing and releasing emotions in a safe and non-destructive manner Encouragement to allow oneself to feel and release sadness without suppression Creating a safe space for holding your own boundaries Importance of ongoing support and guidance during the transition out of the relationship Remember, if you're going through a tough time, swing by my website for resources and courses. Let's tackle this healing journey together and come out stronger! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Mia, welcome to the language of love. Now you have called in for a session before. It was a

while ago. So remind us what we spoke about. Probably spoke about like just narcissistic relationships and the dynamic. And I'm not sure exactly how long ago it was. I think it was a couple of years ago. It might have been. So, well, are you calling in follow-up to that or about something new? I think we're calling to follow up on it. I wanted to share like where I am and you really supported me. And I've kind of been on a healing journey for a couple of years now. So you were in a relationship with a narcissist that was emotionally abusive. Yeah. Emotional, verbal, financial. Yes. I'm trying to remember the details. Do you have children? I do. I have two kids. They are young adults now, teenagers. And so I'm sure I was

giving you perspective on it and helping you kind of find your own truth because being in relationship with an abusive narcissist will gaslight you into no longer having discernment for your own truth, right? And it's really hard to leave a relationship like that often because you've started drinking the Kool-Aid of the emotional abuser and believing some of the things they're telling you about yourself or the helplessness that they try to convince you you're in or some other things. So do you remember what the advice was or what action you took, or do you want to just dive into where you are now? I think it's, I don't remember, but I think it's best to dive in. Yeah. Okay. So I did file for divorce last year

and it was very interesting because it took me 10 years to like hit the send button on it. It was a very profound moment, but it's very interesting because when I did do it, like I knew, I knew I had done a lot of work on myself to understand to kind of flip the script because I spent so many years focusing on him again that's part of we probably also discussed some of the codependent traits that would exist that would you know that I would have attracted a person of this type of with his traits so I did a lot and continue to do so because it doesn't go way, but I have this deep awareness, compassion for myself now that I did flip the script and stop focusing on him and started focusing on myself and who was I in the relationship.

And I spent 22 and 2023 understanding what codependency looks like, but more importantly, what were my needs when I would notice like a codependent behavior. In the beginning, it was hindsight I'd be like why what did just happen and why did that happen and and I feel kind of weird and then I would be able to would take me some time but like kind of go backwards and deconstruct like oh so I was trying to not start a fight so I was looking for approval oh so it was like this backwards work that I started to do and understanding and having compassion for the part of me that would sort of respond with these codependent patterns. And then I just spent 2023, basically after our conversation, probably somewhere really focusing on who I was, what I

needed, and learning how to meet those needs, learning how to validate myself. So I stopped looking for his validation, learning how to approve of myself. So I stopped doing, you know, looking for that from him. And it just led me to and you're right with the confusion and the discernment and the hopelessness, I guess it started to lessen. I think it just started to lessen when I started to understand what my needs were. I think that was the key part when I started to understand what was going on when I was acting in a certain way and I stopped focusing on him or I didn't completely, but I'm better to tell you the full truth. It's very difficult. We still live in the same home. So we're in the process. Yes. Yes. We live in this. It's been nine months.

living in the same home with kids, it's very energetically difficult. Yeah, very, very difficult and physically and physically, like there have been some big blowouts less now. But going back to what I was saying, it was just I feel like I spent that time understanding what I needed. And so by honoring that, and being able to learn how to give myself that validation, that approval that I was consistently, constantly, painfully looking for from him and could never ever receive, I just one day filed. And it actually got a little harder to tell you the truth. I wasn't quite prepared for some of the aftermath after it, but I was solid. And every day, Dr. Laura, every day I'm reminded, oh, that's why you did it. Oh,

that's why it's a very, the pattern is so consistent, you know, it's just, it's right there now. Now you can see it. Yeah. So what you're describing is that you started to attend to your own internal world and what we do, and I'm a recovery dependent as well. I talk about this all this all the time, but what the tendency is and what we're recovering from is externally referencing our well-being, our grounding, our safety, our worth, right? And that's what you're referring to. So when we're externally sourcing that from something or someone externally, then we are at the effect of their reality, right? So for many of us, we become codependent in early childhood because we have an abusive or narcissistic, as in my case, or addicted

caretakers as if we bypass any of our internal world and hand it and make that other, make that caregiver God, basically with the power of God to determine our safety, our worth, and even our truth. And so what ended up happening and what you're describing is that as you start to recover from the codependency, which God bless you, that's really hard to do in the middle of a home, in the middle of a relationship with a toxic narcissist. That is a lot of external pressure against your recovery, right? But as you started to recover and get clear and start reentering, re-embodying your internal world, then you could say, okay, my instinct was to placate him right now. Why was I wanting to play? What was the need, right? That wasn't being met that I was

trying to meet through this dysfunctional way. And how can I show up for myself to create safety in myself without having to placate him? Cause he's not going to give me safety either way. Right. So we stopped trying to squeeze water from a stone and start drinking from our own well. And that's where the magic starts happening. I love how you just put all of that together. That's exactly right. I mean, and that's the, that was the painful part when you are relying on something outside of yourself, for that safety, for that worth. And they don't give it to you. Right. And that is, I mean, that is was my greatest lesson. Obviously, one of my one of my greatest lessons in this lifetime. And I'm so incredibly grateful that I just had the tools and the I mean, we have the podcast, but coaches and therapists that can help us work through this and books now that can really share how to how to heal ourselves or, you know, with therapy, how to how to start the process. Yeah. And it is a healing process and it's really important to you, and I'm sure you know this, not to jump into. I mean, I know it wouldn't be on the table right now while you're still living together. It would be hard to navigate. But if and when you are ready to date, I definitely would recommend staying single once you're separated. And hopefully there's a light at the end of the tunnel for moving out away from each other. But I would give yourself time.

There's going to be another level of healing that happens. It will continue to happen now while even despite you being in the same home. And by the way, it's not at all surprising. I mean, nothing will trigger a narcissist more than being abandoned, right? So a divorce agreement, all the wheels probably came off of any veneer of appropriateness that he was holding onto. Right. Yeah.

Seriously, very much. Yeah, got really bad and bless you for navigating that. And I hope it hasn't been too bad. But when you get out of the house or the situation living together, it will be really important for you to give yourself some space and time to do the next level of healing that is about really resource. So right now you're resourcing yourself, your own well, almost in spite of him, right? And what you're going to want to do once he's out or you're out, I don't know what that will look like, then you want to really source your own well irrelevant of anyone else. I love that you're saying that. That's kind of where I am right now. you know, thank you. Cause I was wondering like, who, who am I in a relationship?

Oh, you don't know yet. You have to first still kind of in a relationship, even though you're, this is what I'm trying to say. Even though you're divorced, you're still co-habitating. Your roommates, that's a relationship. And by the way, you're always going to have a relationship with him. He's the father of your children, but it's going to be very, very different when you can create your own internal and external space and you figure out who am I as a, you don't yet know fully who you are as a single woman in the world, who you are as a woman who's getting divorced, who's trying to navigate cohabitation with her co-parent. That's that's who you are. But once the two of you separate physically, then you can start to,

and you know, you will have done a lot of work already, but then you can be like, okay, who am I as a single woman? What is my, like, who am I? What do I like doing? How do I like spending my evenings? How do I like moving through the house? Where do I like to put my things without any external influences or need to keep the peace or need to navigate around someone else's moods or energy or danger, right? It's going to be a very different reality. And I think it's going to be a huge sigh of relief, but the tendency, because you've never really lived alone, or at least not for a long time, and it's not, you know, your kids I'm sure are still home, but it will be a really beautiful gift you can give yourself to spend at least a year living creating your own

adult whole resourced life you will get so much clearer on not just what you don't want which is where you are right now right exactly that's oh my god that's so true but into what you do want right and how you want to feel and how you want to live and then this other person who you're going to call in is going to be icing on your already delicious cake, not like one of the major ingredients. And that's really what you want. I mean, this is the problem. And by the way, you'll always be tending toward codependency. It's like an addiction. You're always going to be in a hurry. So that's why it's in particular important for us to always be in choice in love. And you can't be in choice until you know fully who you are. You're fully in your power. You can fully resource your own well-being. And then someone else is a beautiful, magical, much needed and wanted addition, but they are not required for your emotional or physical well-being. That's the only way you can be in choice in love.

I just wrote that down, by the way, because I, I really felt that one. I really, and that's part of the, that dynamic that I was in that lack of choice, you know, feeling so encaged and it's just, oh, it was a lot, very subtle. I mean, in your case, it was extreme because he was overtly verbally and emotionally abusive, but even with my husband who is not those things, he's a wonderful person and a wonderful husband, we give each other this 30-second hug every day in the morning. And I literally inside myself say, I choose you today. I have to consciously remind myself every day that I am proactively choosing him because, A, I'm choosing him, so that changes the lens through which I'm looking at him. But also, I'm reminding myself

always. I am in choice. I am not in the effect of anyone or anything else. I am in choice here. So I can always make another choice. And that for me, that's like a hack I use as a recovering codependent to consciously remind myself to hold my boundaries and to not give my truth away. Even if he's not asking me to, that would be my default. That's our tendency. Yeah, that's the tendency. And then before you know it, you've given too much of your truth away and you sometimes may not even know what your truth is anymore or you start to lose confidence in your own decision making or your own instincts. Right. So this is the time to really start cultivating your intuition, your gut feelings, your full body yeses and full body knows and teaching your system and your body that you will listen because you weren't able to listen all of these years. and now yes you may have to like say okay i do want to listen but if i'm going to keep the peace in this house right now i can't really do that but i'm gonna do that right like so you're in a

in a kind of a limbo state now until you're on your own because my guess is a lot of the things your system and your body may want to do either to the house or in the house or with your time you're still under the effect of your husband of your soon-to-be ex-husband yeah i don't think you can fully, I mean, I've moved, I've built, created space for myself, but at the end of the day, I, I can walk around the house and be like, I don't want that. I don't choose that. And, or sometimes, you know, you're sitting in one room and then the person's walking around and you're like, let me just go into my, so I appreciate so much what you're saying. Cause actually what you were really helping me understand is what I'm going through and what I'm feeling. And even some of

the thoughts I have, they're normal because I am, it's like I was in limbo before I decided and I did it. I thought I wasn't going to be in limbo anymore, but now I'm sort of living in limbo. I mean, I'm much more connected to myself, so I'm not, but I'm in this physical kind of, like you said, externally limbo place. So I appreciate that actually, which is validating. And I don't want to minimize what you've already done. That is tremendous, beyond tremendous. That is huge and such an important piece of this and the piece on which everything else builds. But now you haven't yet had a chance to fully figure out who Mia are going to be in the world. That's not even as a single woman, just as a woman.

Like this is myself. Yeah. Sometimes I find myself asking that question, like, really, who am I? I don't know. I feel like there's a blank slate right now. And it's like, I'm still figuring it out. You know, I don't even know what colors I want to pick up right now to paint it. One of my favorite movies to recommend to people who are ready for a codependency recovery

in love is an oldie, but a goodie with Julia Roberts is probably from like the eighties or nineties. It was called Runaway Bride and, and she kept falling in love with these wonderful men and they were all very different. and then they would get engaged. And then at the last minute she would panic and run and she couldn't figure out why until finally she had this breakdown where she realized, and this is the famous line, but this is essentially the movie is about her recovering from codependency and figuring out who she is. But she says, I don't know what kind of eggs I like with this one.

I ate scrambled eggs with that one. It was poached eggs because he loved poached eggs with this one, but what, what the hell, like, what kind of eggs do I like? And there's this scene of her making a kind of egg she could think of and deciding for herself, what kind of eggs do I like? Which to me is like a literal thing, but also a metaphor for what you are being called on to do right now. So maybe watch that movie. I will watch it. And you gave me chills because that is exactly how I used to feel. Yeah. I mean, it's like spot on. And like the way you said, you're like, all right, well, I prefer this. I prefer halibut, but you want salmon. So all right, Ali. And then the whole time you're like, God, I wish I got the other one, but, oh, and you're in

this cycle of like, and then you get caught up in like, aren't I supposed to compromise? And you just, it's all jumbled from culture, your partner, like it's all jumbled. It gets all messed up in your head. So I so appreciate, and I will tell you sometimes with my kids, especially when they're Like, but can you just have this instead of this? I'm like, no, not what I want. I can be very, and even with some friends, I'm like, no, can't do it. It feels so awkward sometimes though. I'm practicing.

Good. That's really good. What you're doing is in lower stakes situations or in situations where you're really secure in the connection, you can start to play with that and you will discover that the sky doesn't fall on your head, that those people don't abandon you. but that comes from when we were really little girls or little boys. I'm talking to a woman, which is why I'm saying little girls. But I will say also this, and this is something that I have only recently discovered. And I would say I've been in recovery for 15 years. And I have, you

know, I slip, obviously, when I'm in a place when I get some trauma or I'm in a place of fearfulness or any number of things. Well, you know, that's why we're always in recovery. But the goal is just like with falling off the wagon, you get back on it, right? You bring yourself back with grace and with compassion for yourself. But I will say, I have just recently discovered

that when we, for, and this is, I think, particularly true for us codependents, because 99.9% of the time, it started really early in life. It starts with our family of origin to stay safe, to get approval if in your family approval and love are the same thing, which in a codependence family they are. If there's danger, if you don't adopt the reality and the needs and co-opt your own needs for the caretakers. Or in my case, I had a severely abusive narcissist father and an extremely codependent and severely depressed mother who wouldn't and couldn't take care of me unless I bolstered her and got her in condition to take care of me, which is one of the reasons I'm such a great therapist today is because I'm three years old. But here's the thing that I didn't know until I uncovered this, that when you give your truth away, when you make that totally unconscious and it's part of our survival, it's not a criticism that we did this.

It's a beautiful thing. Like we were able to adapt the way we could and did in childhood. But the problem is you are not only giving your truth away when you make that agreement, which you essentially make. It's like a contract that you don't really question until you go into recovery, but you give your light away. Yes, absolutely. You give a piece of your soul. you shut down a piece of your soul or access your soul affected but access to a part of your soul and to your soul's light that is part of your life force that is part of your creative force

that is part of your access to the divine and your intuition and everything else like you literally cut that off you have to because that part of you say hey this isn't right we should be that part of you that's telling you, don't do this, don't do this, that you feel you can't listen to as a little child. You just compartmentalize that and push that aside and forget about it and bury it. I'm just mentioning that to you because it's come up for me recently as I've been tapping in and tuning in more deeply that there's this block there. And I didn't understand it and I didn't understand it. And finally, I had this very profound experience where I connected to the part of me who is keeping the disconnect. And it's that part that was trying to keep me safe by

giving my truth away to my caretakers. So guarantee that's true for every, I mean, thinking about it, especially if your codependency started in childhood, which like I said, for almost every single one of us, it did, then you can be pretty guaranteed that's true for you too. So that's a beautiful asset that comes as you stand for your truth more and more and almost call that part back to you. And so that's why it's so important to listen to, acknowledge, and follow on what your intuition and your truth is telling you, what your discernment is telling you not to bypass it, not to compromise that much. I mean, obviously some compromise, but not in a way that your body doesn't say yes to. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love and

relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level, capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com. And you'll find it right there on the homepage, the quantum sex free course. Check it out. Let me know what you think.

I love that. I appreciate that because that follow through part, I saw the way you said the follow through because I still think, and that's really important, I think, for where I am in the dynamic being in that limbo because I can connect to it in my meditation and in my walking and in nature and I can connect and even in movement I can connect but sometimes I notice like that okay maybe I'll do it later you know all right maybe right now is not the time I'll all right next month is better right this is a busy and I appreciate that because I'm aware that I do that. So I'm glad I have that part, but I think, and that might be just kind of where I am right now a little bit, like trying to, trying to keep it civil, trying to keep it civil a little

bit. And you can say to yourself, I mean, I do this now to myself too. I wake up in the morning looking all like a hot mess. And I just say to myself, I look at my eyes and I'm like, I love you. Let me know what I can do for you today. And sometimes I'm in a situation where the stakes are too high or it's just, I'm going to really create chaos if I do what my system is calling me to do in that moment. And I will literally like in the bath and be like, listen, I hear you. Like I have conversations. We're going to do that. But today I'm making an appointment that I'm going to keep like next week or next month. I'm coming back to this. I'm putting it in my calendar. But right now I'm so overwhelmed. And I do believe that this is the right thing for me to do. But

I'm so overwhelmed right now. I don't want to overwhelm my system anymore. So I'm going to hold back. But next month, next week, whatever it is. Yeah, right. So I literally am talking to that part of me who's trying to like yank on my intuition to be like, girl, we got to because if you don't listen, you'll stop getting the direction. It'll all shut down again. And this is really, really important for every single one of us, but especially for a codependent or recovering codependent, because that is your source of truth, safety, protection, and trust. Honestly, that's probably what I needed to hear today. Good.

You know, it really is. So thank you for saying that. That makes so much sense. I like that. just kind of tabling it, but like still like that acknowledgement to that part. I hear you. I get it. We're going there. It's just that today's not going to work, but I'm coming back. I'm coming back and go back. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And it's so funny because it's just, we're learning how to be with ourselves. Yeah. Keep our agreements with ourselves. That's everything. I mean, that's where the source of safety is found. And unless you really good relationship with your source of safety, you're not going to feel safe. Not because that part of you is going to try to do harm to you, but because you won't have access to it and

it will shut down again. And it's waiting. It's waiting. It's expecting to be shut down. So it's like a scared little abused part of yourself that you have to, that has tremendous wisdom and insane gifts, but you have to convince her that you're going to show up for her and you're going to listen and you're going to follow and you're going to protect and you're going to honor that part. I love it. That feels so great to hear. Well, I'm super proud of you. I think, I mean, I know how hard it is to end any relationship when you've built a life together and have children and there isn't like a crazy infidelity crisis or something else.

And there's a lot of fear, but it's hard. And it's especially hard as a codependent to end any friendship, much less a love relationship and even harder with a narcissist who's gonna gaslight you and shame you and scare the crap out of you. All of it. Yeah, I know what strength it takes

not to buy into his distorted reality, not to fall prey to the toxic patterns and to be really committed to claiming your own power. And it's going to be such a gift to your children as well to see a different version of what love can be and what standing in your own power can look like and what boundaries look like and integrity. I mean, there's so many lessons in this for them and gifts that you're getting. I also was just thinking when you said that, it's also gonna be amazing that if I'm in a relationship

and those boundaries are honored, like you're not like, wait, wait, did you really say okay? Did you really not like- Right, lose your shit on me? Did you really not just say, hold on a second, And what about me? And did you really say, okay? Like sometimes even when that happens with like friends,

I check in, I'm like, that was really easy. Did I make that up in my head? Why was that so easy? But yeah, the clearer you get, and this is something I discovered too, is that the clearer you get and the more confident you get in your own boundaries, the cooler people are with them.

And the only ones who won't be are the really toxic ones who you don't want in your life anyway. But this is why it's so important to stay also, why it's so important to stay single for a little bit once you're totally unencumbered. Otherwise, because you've got to do that full healing to become your whole internally referenced, resourced self. Because if you don't, you will be a vibrational match and an emotional match to another emotional person. person. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. Because you haven't done your work to be a match to something else. There's a great book. I interviewed her. She's a friend of mine. There is an interview up on the Language of Love with her. It's her book, which is such a cute title, is called Kicking Ass in a Corset. And it's something like the 10 or 15 principles of internally referenced leadership. So it's really a book. She uses Jane Eyre, which is why she's talking about a corset,

but she uses references from Jane Eyre's stories to demonstrate and talk about the ways that women can resource their strength, their boundaries, and their leadership from an internal place rather than an external place. So I often recommend to my female codependent counterparts to check out it's not i will put that on tendency but it's on that aspect of internally referenced strength which right it sounds like it's after it's like when we are on the other kind of moving towards the other side yeah i mean i feel like now because this is where you are to practice these principles on your own and then once you get out then you're going to start getting clear And you can start to get clearer on metaphorically what kind of eggs you like now, but within

reason because he's got he's in the house, too, and he's got his own eggs he wants metaphorically. So when you are out and you can really step into what it is to be alone in my strength and in my power, right, you've already set the foundation with the work you're doing now, and then you continue that and get really, really clear and comfortable being fully on your own, where someone else is just a compliment and a beautiful, sprinkly, gorgeous icing that makes the cake so much better, but not at all mandatory for it to be a delicious cake. Perfect. Cake with you, by the way.

I know I am very clear. And I just, I mean, I feel so, I feel so much better already in my life, but I have, you know, definitely at least once or twice a week, I definitely have moments, big moments, long moments of questioning, wondering, I don't know, maybe it's, maybe it's even a little bit of depression, very little that, that shows up. It doesn't, it doesn't really hinder my life, but I think it's just part of my being in the same home and the life and no, no, no clarity, no rules, no end in sight. Although there is an end, you know, I know it's to this is temporary, but it's not like in my, you know, in my vision right now, but I am working on, basically I'm working on, I guess, the not taking things personally. I think that's a really

big one while I'm living in the same home, not taking things personally, recognizing that that's a child himself, like, you know, and that's a big, a big fat tantrum going on. And it's great practice for you because you got to keep the peace a little bit, but you don't need to keep the relationship. Right. So you can be like practicing. How do I stand in the presence of or leave? You leave the room. That's the other option. But to stand in the present temper tantrum like this little bear cub who thinks he's a giant bear is growling and yelling at me with the wind of it blowing in my face, how can I stand in the presence of that and not let it stick to me, right? And not take it on as my own and recognize that it really has nothing

to do with me. I might be the trigger to his sense of lack of control or lack of lovability or whatever story, but I'm not the reason. I don't deserve this, right? And so as you start practice that, which is hard. I mean, it's super hard to do when you're right in the middle of it. Do you have a plan for getting out of the house or getting him out? I think it's still forming. There's a lot of also, like I said, just wasn't this emotional and verbal, but now there's a lot of financial abuse. I was listening to a podcast earlier today and the second half or the last half of it was about retaliation and what they do like after when you are trying to leave. So I everything that was said was I was like checking off everything.

I'm like, Oh, that's what's going on in my life. So working through some of the financial betrayal movement of, of funds and trying to, trying to, I guess, kind of get me at that, at that side now, if it's not over here, it's going to be something else. So we're still working through that. And I think that's going to take a little, a little time. And then just legal system takes time also. But I think the focus is on me. The focus is on my healing. The focus is on me in relationship with my kids. And to tell you the truth, we have no engagement, really. A little hard because we do have things to talk about that are necessary with children, but there's very little communication, if any. There's no engagement. Every once in a while there is, but there's nothing. And the kids are doing okay with all of this? I think my younger one was definitely affected. Definitely. He was 16. And then my older one, not as much, or it doesn't seem as much. He was out of the house for a year. He's home.

I just open up the door if they want to talk to me about things. And I do a lot of, I suppose, stepping back, kind of let them, if they're going to go do something, let them. If they made plans with me and now he got involved and he wants to change it all around, let them. I just sort of step back. Yeah. That was hard for me to do too. It felt very like, is this my codependent? I question, is this my codependency? Is this me? Like, but I think at the end of the day, I just started to learn also how to be on my own that. So I did both. Right. And I engage with my children. It's just, it's not, I think that one of the words that was just going to come out of my mouth is it's not really fair. It feels so unfair when you're in this sort of

dynamic and somebody who's very unreasonable, right? Like, nope, there's no, nope, nope, no plans. Nope. We're not making this. I'm not going to make this easy for you. We're not going to do this. You chose to do. So there's a lot of this and I feel unfair. So I step back, I take care of the little girl that feels unfair and, you know, wants it to be different, really wants it to be different so badly. Understandably, but she's incapable. But the cool thing is that your kids are old enough now where they're paying attention to your energy and the way you move with things and in every single divorce or separation the number one thing that predicts for how kids are going to do is how the parents are doing so the more you be in a place of peace

and confidence and clarity and calm the more they will be okay and you can't control what he does how clear he is. But if you can hold that energy, and I love the idea of not, I mean, obviously letting them know they're wanted and welcome, but not putting the pressure on where they feel like they have to choose between you, even when it's his fault that they're being put in that position. I agree with you that you don't want to join that position and put them further in, right? You want to make it easy for them. And ironically, that ends up making them want to be around you more. That's so great. Cause I wasn't, I didn't see that. You know, when sometimes when I'm talking about where I am in this relationship, sometimes it's hard for me

to see because I'm so in it, but I really appreciate that because I do work to make sure that I am not making them feel like they need to choose. There is no choice. Both of us are your, both of us are your parents and he, I'm sure he loves you in his own way that he could love. And that's been something that I've only been kind of in me right now, maybe like three months. So it was a lot of, you know, it was just stepping back and honoring. Cause I would feel like shit. I would feel, I'd be like, what about me? You know, I'm the one that's there for everything. So I had to handle the part of me freeing myself. You're going to abuse me more and get away with it. Yes, it is enraging and you're allowed to feel angry about it and move

that anger. It's just about not internalizing it. I'd rather you be angry than depressed because that's higher energy. So true. It's about not letting the anger or sadness or anything else. And I think that may be what part of the sadness is the sadness or depression, as you said, maybe partly fear also grief not because you want to stay in the relationship but your grief around what you imagined your life would be and what you imagine your family would look like and even if it's a relationship you want to leave it's sad that it's ending and that your family as you knew it is not going to be the same those are all grief inducing realities and there's the depression, which comes in the form of anger turned inward. And I think there's some of that

in the mix here too, where when you are angry, you don't want to be angry because it makes it hard to coexist and you don't want to act from anger, which I agree with. But if you can't release anger, it turns into sadness. It turns into depression. And so what I would encourage you to do and you've probably if you follow me on social media you've probably seen me doing this is just to get like a hanger or a baseball bat or whatever and beat the crap out of a bunch of pillows or scream into a bowl of ice water or out the window on the freeway like on the top of your lungs release the energy of the anger not on him not having anything to do but get it out of you I think you're actually, I was just thinking of yesterday. And when I said depressed, like, sometimes I just feel like not doing too much. It's like, I'll read, I'll still go, I might, I'll walk. And with the weather being so beautiful now, you know, I'll be outside. But sometimes it is, I think it's, it's just, I feel so angry. And I don't want to take it out. Like, when I sit there and say, it's not fair, or that's what it was yesterday. It's not fair.

yeah that's what kept that was the tape yeah it's not sure this yeah and then sadness will come up after the anger and the whole thing will take 10 minutes and you'll feel so much better and so much lighter and won't be internalizing all this energy that will start to weigh you down yeah i think that's a really important part of this process and i think the grief for sure that i notice and i Like try to, I don't want to get consumed in it. None of us want to get consumed in it, but I think it's the lack of, that's what it is. I feel when I notice my thoughts are like, oh, we used to do that together and that's not happening.

Right. And I have to sort of, I sort of allow it. And it's at the same time, like you said, it's not that I want to do it together. I actually don't want to. Yeah. But it's still sad and allowing yourself to the sadness too. I think you're having the fear that almost everyone has that I'm not going to feel this because if I do, I'm going to be carried away by it.

But it's actually the opposite. What keeps us stuck is the unwillingness to feel it. And when you let yourself have contained, make yourself a little nest of pillows, sit down with yourself and just let yourself cry for 10 minutes, ugly, snotty tears, it really won't take longer than that. and then you've released sadness and you're not stuck there anymore. It's when I'm not supposed to be sad. I don't want to stay stuck in sadness. I need to be, I should be happy about this. I don't want to feel the sadness or go there or look there because I may stay stuck there.

That's when it starts to persist. But you're in a highly emotional scenario right now with someone who's not in control of his emotions. And so I agree that you want to remain calm and contain things in relation to him and the kids, but on your own, you have to create space to release it. Even if it's not released at him or in front of him, it's, it's got to be. It needs to come out of me. It needs to be released from me. Yes. Yes. Oh, wow. I think i will i'll sit with that and i will try it see what happens i do probably not enough because i'm just thinking about yesterday and if i'm reflecting on yesterday that's what it was it was a lot of just like this is not it was anger and unfairness and what the fuck and this

is ridiculous and this is it was all of that but then it wasn't able to come out of my physical body. It was coming out of my mind and my mouth, but it needed to be moved out. Cause I think that's when I am just, I was pushing it down. I was like, all right, I got it. I know I'm pissed off. I'm irritated, but I wasn't releasing it. Yeah. That's what keeps you safe. Yeah. Thank you. I have a lot of ideas to work with. You're on the right track. I hope sooner than later, you can get physically separated as well as legally. And I'm really happy for you as hard as it is right now. I'm really happy for you. So thank you for giving us the update. Oh, thank you for having me back. And I'm really happy to even where I am. And then this

strange, weird limbo place. I am much, much happier already. So I don't know. I don't know what's on the other side. I'm looking forward to it. All right. Good deal. Well, keep us posted when you're out of the house and ready for space or if you run into any trouble, we're here for you. Thank you. I appreciate it. I wrote me a prescription, but there's no cure for crying.