Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - What the Kink Community Knows About Intimacy That Most Couples Don’t with Amanda Dames

Episode Date: August 12, 2026

What if some of the people we think of as having the most unconventional sex lives are actually having some of the clearest conversations about intimacy? Because kink is about a lot more than whips, handcuffs, or what happens in a dungeon. At its best, it requires people to talk openly about things many couples struggle to discuss at all: What do I want? What are my boundaries? What makes me feel safe? What am I curious about? What am I afraid to admit turns me on? And can I trust you with a part of myself I don’t show everyone else? Those are intimacy questions. And you don’t have to have any interest in kink to learn from the answers. On this episode of The Language of Love, I’m joined by Amanda Dames, known as The Kink Consultant. Amanda is a sexologist, Somatica-certified sex and relationship coach, podcast host, and former New York City dominatrix. And her story is wild. Amanda found her way into New York’s BDSM world almost by accident and eventually became a highly sought-after dominatrix working with powerful, successful men and women. People who spent their days being in charge would walk through her door desperate for something they rarely got anywhere else: permission to stop being in control. Then Amanda’s own relationship to power took an unexpected turn. She met the man who would become her husband at a kink event, and the woman who had built a career being dominant discovered that, with him, she wanted to surrender. But this conversation isn’t really about dungeons or labels. It’s about what Amanda learned inside that world that applies to the rest of us. We talk about why so many of us hide our desires from the person we love most, how shame quietly follows us into the bedroom, and why feeling safe enough to say “this is what I want” can be an incredibly intimate act. Amanda also shares practices from the kink community that I think many couples could benefit from, including negotiating desires and boundaries before sex, checking in during an experience, and having an “aftercare” conversation afterward about what felt good, what didn’t, and what you might want differently next time. And we get into something even bigger: power. Why can surrender feel so freeing for someone who carries enormous responsibility in the rest of their life? Why do some women crave the ability to soften and relinquish control while simultaneously fearing what that vulnerability requires? And what happens when you trust someone enough to show them a part of yourself you’ve been editing, hiding, or judging for years? In this episode, we explore: What “kink” actually means, and why it may be very different from what you imagine What Amanda learned about human desire while working as a New York City dominatrix Why powerful, high-achieving people can crave surrender behind closed doors How Amanda went from being the one in control to discovering her own desire to submit Why people hide fantasies and desires even in otherwise loving relationships How to tell your partner what you want without making either of you feel pressured or ashamed What the kink community gets right about consent, boundaries, communication, and trust The before-and-after conversations that could transform sex for couples who have never set foot near the kink world Why surrender and vulnerability require safety, rather than weakness How to respond when your partner tells you something sexually that surprises you What it takes to feel truly known by another person without editing yourself first You may come to this episode because you’re curious about Amanda’s years as a dominatrix. But I think you’ll stay for a much more interesting question: How much more intimate could your relationship become if you felt safe enough to tell the person you love who you really are and what you really want? To learn more about Amanda and her work, visit her website. You can find her on Instagram where she shares daily insights on kink and relationships, and listen to her podcast, The Kink Consultant Podcast, for deeper explorations of desire, communication, and intimacy. if you felt a spark from today's show, don't stop here. My website offers more content, tools, and upcoming events to keep the conversation alive. And if a reflection comes up or you simply want to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. Find me at [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm Dr. Laura Berman, and for more than 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better across every kind of relationship. My intention on Language of Love Conversations is simple, to help you learn to love and be loved better, deepening your relationships, expanding your capacity for connection, and living with more presence, honesty, and love. Let's get fluent in the language of love together. We tend to think that intimacy is about finding the right person, being with the right person, but true intimacy is really about being willing to be seen and seeing your partner and their

willingness as well. Most of us spend our lives hiding parts of ourselves because we're afraid those parts won't be accepted. We hide our desires. We downplay our needs. We avoid those difficult conversations because we're afraid of being judged or rejected or misunderstood. Ironically, some of the communities that society judges most harshly have developed incredibly sophisticated ways of creating emotional safety through amazing communication, consent, boundaries, trust, and emotional care. Well, my guest on this episode of The Language of Love is Amanda Dames, also known as the Kink Consultant.

Amanda is a sexologist, a Somatica-certified sex and relationship coach, podcast host, and a former New York City dominatrix who now helps individuals and couples explore desire, communication, and intimacy without shame. And through her coaching and appearances and podcasts, Amanda's intention is to help people move beyond secrecy and self-judgment so that they can build relationships rooted in honesty, connection, and consent. In this episode, we're exploring why it's so difficult to tell the truth about what we really want, what modern relationships can learn from the King community, and what it really takes to create a relationship where both people feel safe enough to be fully themselves.

I'm so excited to share this conversation with you with Amanda Dames, the Kink Consultant. Amanda Dames, thank you so much for joining us on the Language of Love. I'm excited to talk to you. Thank you so much for having me. I already said that you're the Kink Consultant, right? you are a former dominatrix you do all you know the somatica sex coaching and all of that but

obviously what stands out to people is the dominatrix thing and even in my training back gosh i was training did like all my sex therapy training the bulk of it in the early to late 90s and early 2000s and it was a much i was one of my best friends was a professional dominatrix and i used to love, she had a two-way mirror that the clients knew about, but I used to love to watch her work because it is fascinating beyond measure. But so that's where I wanted to start. You don't become a dominatrix by accident usually to find out, but how did your journey lead you into this work? So what's really interesting about the work itself as a dominatrix is the first time I understood who I was and what I wanted sexually was I was watching a TV show and a real, it was

like, you know, one of those documentary style things where this couple in England were both submissive and they went and hired a dominatrix and they allowed this camera crew to follow them. Yeah. I was 13 years old and had spent years being obsessed with what I know now to be power dynamics and punishment and some really heavy BDSM themes that didn't understand were sexual. So I was like, why am I always thinking about spanking? You know, as a kid, you're not thinking about paddles. And you wanted to spank. You weren't fantasizing about being spanked or you were fantasizing about doing the spanking or both. When I was younger, I was fantasizing about doing the spanking. I was sometimes being spanked, but it was more just this raw obsession. If I knew one

of my friends was, had been spanked by their parents. I wanted all the details. Oh, if they were threatened with a spanking, like my ears perked up and I was like, Ooh, is it going to happen? Oh, interesting. But I didn't understand why I cared so much. And I, by default then felt like an, a weirdo. Cause I was like, I knew no one else was obsessed with this. Not like me. Yeah. And no one else was excited about the potential of being spanked or spanking someone, right? Yeah. Well, I was lucky I wasn't spanked. You know, I think when I was a toddler, I probably got a spot or two. In fact, I know I had my mom on my podcast and asked her about it to see where this came from for me, if it came from her or something from my childhood. But

you're right. No one else was like that. So when I watched this show, I found out everything in one fell swoop. I found out that, oh, I'm something called kinky and it's dominance and submission. And in my mind, I was like, okay, I was a 13 year old and I thought, okay, when I'm 18, I'll go find a dominatrix and then I'll have my needs met and everything will be fine. It didn't even occur to me that I would experience this in my own personal life. So I knew the job existed from basically the same time I realized, oh, I'm into this sexually. But it wasn't until I never thought I'd do the job until I was 24. I had just moved to New York City and I had a job at the Wall Street Journal. It was a customer service job, but very respectable job.

It just didn't pay a ton. And I was used to nicer things. So I went to Craigslist to find another job, something in the evening, something to make a little extra cash. And I found the dominatrix job. And once I saw that listing, I couldn't get it out of my head. I was just like. And what was the listing?

What was the ad for? It was for, I think they called it phone girl, right? That was what the ad was for. And I don't know how I knew it was in. Craigslist was a different place back in 2013. There were not the same laws we have today. So everything was a lot more open. There was something about it though. I guess it was the section. It was maybe in gigs or services. And like, I was able to understand this is not a phone girl situation. So when you open the ad, it kind of talks about working at a dungeon where your job

is a dominatrix. And then I'm like, yes, that. So you went to work in a dungeon? Yes. So I took a job at, you can obviously work independently, but I was 24 and new to New York City. I was not going to be the one putting Craigslist ads up myself because, you know, there's scary people out there. Yeah. I went to, I found a dungeon where I went to have my job interview and say I wanted to be a dominatrix at their dungeon. And the work itself is not, you don't just get paid to sit there. It's like when you get a client, you get paid for the hour you worked. Yeah. And, you know, so you got to hustle a little bit, but you're not proactively pulling people in. But like when you work at a dungeon, you know, it's someone else who's designed

it. There's multiple rooms. It's like they've created this fantasy land for adults to indulge many kinks and fetishes. Yeah. I've been to them. They're quite something. Yeah. We got sent everywhere in graduate school. And since then, I'm always curious. And it is quite an extravaganza, these dungeons and so you're kind of going around and would kind of start talking to someone and say you know do you want to play or whatever and then take on is that how it worked they would come in and meet what they would book and then they'd either book someone specific because our pictures were on the website or they would come in and they'd usually say I want to meet all the girls and we'd go in one by one oh cringing it's you know what's funny I was fine with it what killed

me it was that guy sometimes would have to tell what he say what he wanted 14 times in a row he probably got off on it who knows I think he did sometimes sometimes they were like I'm in a rush send me in all the thin blondes you know or curvy brunettes or whatever they were looking for but sometimes they wanted to meet everyone and they just give a really high level of what they wanted so it's like an energy check and uh I want cock and ball torture I want sensual domination I want you know what these things were or did you have to get trained? Great question. I knew what a lot of it was, but like, even if you know what cock and ball torture is, and it's called CBT, which is, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy is normally what everyone thinks when they hear CBT.

I didn't know how to do it. Yeah. But it's an interesting dynamic at a dungeon when you're all competing for the same clients and you have to learn how, what to do from your competition. So you need to be nice to everyone, hope that they pull you into a session to teach you things. So is that what you did? You would watch the other women work and ask them questions and you kind of learned that way. Yeah, I knew more than your average person being kinky and having explored and read books.

But in terms of how to do it myself, yeah. And sometimes you'd have to hustle. People would. There's a lot of things that you can do at a dungeon and there's things that you need to try and you need to be taught not just by the person doing it you need to talk to the person having it done and they need to be willing for you to be there to learn so yeah there are extreme things like there's something called sounding that I always use as an example where it's sticking a metal rod down the a man's urethra so you're sticking oh ow I'm so sorry I should have given

you a trigger warning no it's okay yeah trigger warning for everyone else but ow yeah okay go ahead and that's that's almost a almost a medical procedure right so you just want the woman to sterilize it and everything yes i hope you do yes you do have to sterilize it and we had sterilizers there and we took it really seriously because you don't want to give someone an infection you want to find someone who like the dominatrix had to be willing to teach me but not only that you needed to find a client who was open to letting you learn yeah well i mean if they were really sadistic, they would probably get off on a few mistakes. Yes. I can't even imagine that because. Me either. It was even, that was one of the, I like giving that example too, because that

was one of those sessions where even me and doing the job I did, it turned my stomach a little bit because it just looked painful, you know? So, I mean, were there other things that you were like, oh my gosh, like, was there anything that you were just like, I can't do it? Oh yeah. Poop. anything to do with poop. And that's something else I learned. When I was 24, there was a porno video that was sent around in my college days called Two Girls, One Cup. And I was so naive at the time that I just thought, I honestly at first thought it was fake ice cream that was in that cup. And not only that, I thought there's no way anyone's into this, but there are. Oh no, people are into that. I had a client once, this was years ago. I mean,

I was probably like maybe 20 years ago, this was, and I was still in New York city or where he was in New York city. I was where maybe I was in Chicago at the time, but he had a special Lucite coffee table made and he would climb under it. This was his kink. He would climb under it and he would have women, usually prostitutes or, you know, dominance come and usually two at a time come and poop all over like he didn't necessarily want to be pooped on directly but he had a whole table designed around his fetish for getting pooped on and he would have these women do that on his coffee table regularly I'm not surprised that it's regularly it's yeah it's a whole industry well now I mean with social media we know so much more like there was a period of

time where women were being paid to go to Dubai to either have that done to them, like people wanted to do it or they would do it to other people. So it's even more common, I'm realizing now than I realized at 24 or 25 when I was working at the dungeon. And so did you ever with talking to your mom and whatever, because usually, you know, this is what I don't know, in the 70s, they coined love maps right where you know you kind of have this map of what turns you on what your sexual template is and it usually develops in the first decade of life or the first seven years of life and that doesn't mean you had some horrific trauma but something sort of shifted or happened or directed you into some of these atypical directions let's just say whether it's

what you're into from, you know, the things that the guys you're describing are into or whether you're somebody who wants to be dominant or wants to be in a more BDSM and be the one administering the pain or the dominance. So did you ever figure out or do you just have you just come to the conclusion that you were born this way? I do think I was born this way because from the age of five, it's such a young age and discipline and punishment was not a huge part of my upbringing. It was it It was, my dad was pretty strict, but he worked a lot. It was a traditional type of household where he went to work and my mom was this wonderful stay-at-home mom.

So I don't have anything I can point to, but I do know the core of my desire and what I really want is someone paying attention to me. And to me, sometimes that level of punishment or what it really says is I see you, you're doing something wrong and I can correct it and you're going to be better because of it. Yeah.

So I think there's a nurturing element to it that I enjoy. I have your undivided attention. Yes. Yes. Because when, I mean, especially for a dominatrix. And that was the other thing that was fascinating to me watching my friend work. And I'm sure you'll tell me whether you've experienced the same thing. The majority of clients tend to be men, although plenty of women like it too.

But true. And they are usually extremely high power men, like running Fortune 500 companies and and or controlling things all day long in their daily life. Like the ones that I meet, I mean, I'm not a dominatrix, but I worked with a lot of them clinically through the years. And there's something, their erotic attachment to being dominated is so interesting to me. And it makes sense because they're in control of so many things during the day.

But was there, have you found a common thread in the clients you see? Or is it all, who are really into the heavy stuff of being like really seriously dominated that that's I'm not saying that they just have a fantasy about it and enjoy it but that it's really part of their sexual love back I used to think that except when I worked as a dominatrix I used to think that and then now that I work as a coach and I have people from all walks of life contacting me I'm realizing there's something like I don't know what the scientific term of like selection bias is because basically who can pay to go to a dungeon. Yeah. People who have money. Yeah. So I was only seeing a certain type of client. And now

my views on who actually is into this have evolved a lot because I'm realizing I meet people who work at the grocery store and also want that level. And I wouldn't call that a high power job. Maybe they care a lot about their work, but it's not exactly the same thing. Or maybe they're in a position where even in a grocery store, they're having to make lots of decisions at home and at work. And it's like a relief and an erotic experience to not just give up control, but have it taken from you and have it taken from you by someone who you feel can hold it. Like that's the key with the dominatrix. The holding piece is everything. Yeah. It's decision fatigue. Yeah. So it doesn't have to be high powered. It is that just exhaustion of having to think about everything.

It is the mental load. I mean, I know a lot of women talk about mental load, but men have it too. It's just in a different arena. So yeah, that is for sure. And a lot of my clients had impressive titles at impressive companies and made a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah. Those were, I mean, this woman that I used to watch work, she lived the high life. I mean, she made a poop ton. She offered me a job. I just am not a dominatrix. I could not even imagine doing what I saw her doing.

But, you know, I'm probably more of a if I were to choose one. I know I can't I'm not into any of it personally. I mean, I totally understand it. But I had no interest in the job, except I was tempted by the money. I mean, she made so much money. I can't believe in hindsight. I can't believe how much money I was making and I just wasn't smart enough to understand how much money I was making. I can't explain it. I was just, you're young and you don't know what you

don't know. So you sort of think, it's like you hear about footballers who spent all their money and you're like, how did they do that? I know how they did it. So what kind of money were you making in the dungeon? I was making a couple of thousand a week usually, and I wasn't working that many shifts. And I saved, like in fact, a significant portion of my savings right now is from the work I did that and I'm 37 now. It was just, I paid, everything was paid. I paid in cash. I was paid in cash. So it just sort of like the money was fun money. And I had a lot of fun. You had a lot of fun. What made you move more into the coaching realm? I left being a dominatrix altogether because my career was taking off. And even though the money wasn't as good, I liked a level set of

I was a dom in 2013 at a dungeon and I was working with women who were about 10 years older who were my age when they started. And they were making way more money than I was making working at the dungeon at that time. But then the recession hit and these women had given up their entry level jobs to make this money. The recession hit and the money never came back the same way. I see. And to me, that was a, that was a tale that I was, I had heard from a couple of women at the dungeon and I was terrified of it. So I knew that I felt the money was only going to be good for a while. And the real path was to commit to my career and make more money there. But I'm not saying that didn't work, but I do know that I missed the work of working in the

King space the entire time. And I didn't really put two and two together, but I was job hopping thinking, oh, I just want to climb the career ladder. But really, I was unsettled. I just didn't like the work. And I knew I kind of work. Where are you doing? Oh, I need type work, marketing, corporate work. So like and I was I went back to the Wall Street Journal. I worked for FedEx, Etsy, Peacock, which is NBC streaming service. So like I was I had great jobs, but I could not sit still. Very different. Yes. So different. I missed it. So I thought, how do I get back to this? And as much as I wanted to be a dominatrix, again, it just didn't, I'd learned more about myself. I was like, I don't think I want that energy work

because you have to hold so much space. Yeah, it's a lot. And I discovered sex and relationship coaching. And I thought I would just be a sex and relationship coach. And when I did the, I did somatica certification, a board certified sexologist, I realized there's enough here. There are enough people who need help with kink. I can specialize in kink and talk to the people. I'm still playing this space. I mean, I have a 24-7 dynamic with my partner where I am submissive, but I've been playing it. I always kept the personal side of it. It's just now I get to do it for work again as well. So in your relationship, you're a submissive. Yes. Because I am a switch. Yeah. Okay. So you're a switch. Yeah. Or a top and a bottom,

as they call it, right? Yeah. It's all coming back to me. So that's interesting. So you switch back and forth. Is he just stepping into that role or does he have that orientation by nature as well? We are two peas in a pod or the exact, the perfect opposite sides of the coin. But I met him at a kink event specifically for our interest in punishment and spanking. So it's like we speak the same language. And I often describe it as if you've ever dated someone or had a friend who English was English was their second language. Sometimes things don't translate. So to meet someone whose first language is also my kink is it's really special. Yeah. And I think that is really special. And it's making me think about in the earlier part, because I've been doing this for

30 years. And I would say in the early part of my career, when I would meet someone who had a particular fetish or kink, it would be really hard. They would have to go to these locations or they'd have to go to a support group or something to meet others who were fluent in the same language as you describe it. And now you just have to hop on a discussion board somewhere or get into some Facebook group or online community or Reddit thread or whatever, you know depending on your age and what you're into and find others yep it is it's easier but uh you touched on this i love to explain that a fetish is a need to have in terms of you needed to achieve arousal and then a kink is a nice to have you might still need the variety of kink and

only find enjoyment and sex through it but it doesn't mean that's the only way you get aroused and what i have is a punishment fetish i've never you have a fetish so you have to be punished to get aroused. Or I at least have to run the fantasy in my head, yes, to get aroused. So sometimes during sex or before sex, if when I was with partners who weren't kinky or did not share my fetish, I would often warm myself up even just thinking about these things. Yeah. Well, so this is a great segue into fantasy because we talked about fetish, which is the half, you know, need to have kink, which is the want to have and enjoy. And we're going to talk, I want to pick your brain in a minute around couples navigating this on the topic of fantasy, also just fantasy, right?

Yeah. So there's, so on the continuum, I guess it would go fantasy kink fetish in terms of necessity and intensity of necessity. So from the fantasy standpoint, and you were saying this to me before we started recording, when we were chatting a bit that you work, and I see this too, you know, you work with when you ask people and I always ask them when we do their sex history, I'll always ask them about their fantasies. And many, many, many, especially women say, I don't really have any fantasies. I hear it all the time. Exactly. Yeah. And that makes me sad, but it's understandable. I'm not saying every single person does definitely have a fantasy. But what I will say is there I have not worked with a woman who has not uncovered her fantasy in our work together. So, you know,

but there's an open-mindedness of obviously people who come and they're curious about finding it. And I think for so many people, it's just about populating their menu of what a fantasy can look like. And I blame society a little bit for taking people's fantasies away from them. And one of my favorite things to talk to women about is, well, you know, what drives you sexually? What gets you excited? And I give them a couple of examples, sort of like, is it being exhilarated, being watched, being like, is it a romantic situation? And oftentimes I'll talk to them about date night and being taken to a nice restaurant and thought about and having their chair pulled out and, you know, the essential wines, dined, maybe dinner, a show, and then home situation.

And I see them light up and get excited. And they're like, oh, I love that. I love to feel special. Sometimes it goes as far as I love to feel like a princess, right? And I know on social media, we talk about princess treatment and things, but it's really about being cared for and pampered a little bit. And I think that sometimes that's gotten, as we've aged, it's sort of like, well, let's shame Disney and the princess treatment and the idea that women would want this. Yeah, it's the patriarchy. Yeah, it is. And when people realize that is a fantasy that they are allowed to have, Just giving permission to want what you want can open a lot of doors and obviously like

opening a door is important, but then getting to work with a couple and have her speak her fantasy to her partner and explain, I'm not just asking you to take me on a date. I'm asking you for this experience. Yeah. Just like you're asking me for an experience can be a really great way to build a bridge to each other. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love, and relationship therapist for over 30 years, and the main question I always

get asked is, how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex. It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage, the quantum sex free course. Check it out. Let me know what you think. I'm also thinking, as we talk about, like, fantasies and being taken care of, I was so intrigued and fascinated when I watched the reaction to that book.

I don't know, maybe it's been 15 years now, 10 years, I don't know, of Fifty Shades of Grey. when Fifty Shades of Grey came out. First of all, God bless her. It was like the crappiest written book I've ever read. But not ever, but one of them. But it was all about BDSM and being submissive to somebody. And this is what was so clear to me because women were coming out of the woodwork,

like fascinated about and so turned on. And the guys were like, wait a minute, you want to be spanked? you want to be put on the rack? Like, what are you saying? And what it really, to me, I mean, yes, there were plenty of women who realized they did kind of want that. But what I think the majority of women were responding to is this idea almost along the lines of what you're saying with the romance and the whining and dining, this idea of having a man who is so into you and so powerful and can hold, right, can hold and contain you, taking control over you,

but in a really loving, nurturing, whining and dining kind of way. And for so many women who in today's world are juggling so many things and are so exhausted and feel so kind of logistically unsupported. You know, I think it was really hot for them to imagine someone coming in with poop tons of money and hot as hell and wanting to just treat them like a princess, but also totally take over, like we were saying, all the decisions. First of all, I've never heard that exact take. Right. And I love it because it's not just that he was a billionaire. Right. It's that he held space for her. He held for her. And when I think about it, every area of disruption or tension in the relationship was actually when he stopped being able to hold her in that same way.

It was nothing about money. And you've hit the nail on the head. I love that you explained it like that because I always used to say, I want that same book, but I want him to be a teacher Or, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a regular job just to see, because I think that holding space, the dynamic can exist whether you have a million or billion dollars or not. Yeah. Maybe it wouldn't have gotten such traction. But yeah, that idea that like a man can take care of you, not just financially, but see you and be there for you and pay attention to you. Yes. And be so attuned to you and so on top of things. And yeah, it's fast. That was also fascinating to me and still is. Let's talk about the shame piece, because obviously you spend your time helping people explore desire without shame. But I can you know, we can guess. But I'm just curious about your take on why so many people are ashamed of what they really want, even not just sexually, but even emotionally, like we were talking about wanting to be, you know, like women

are told, you know, take care of yourself. Don't depend on a man, you know, whatever it is. And yet many have this fantasy, like they don't want to have to depend on anyone. And yet they also have this fantasy and there's like this conflict around it. Well, I think that we're all shame is bred into us we're not born with shame right we take indicators from we're like collecting data if you're religious and I you know I am actually religious but I that upbringing of like you should feel guilty you should feel bad about things even without that society tells you at first women were supposed to be feminine now women are supposed to take care of themselves and we are always being told who we're supposed to be and no matter who you're being told you're

supposed to be. There is no example where it's okay to be wanting anything. So you have to be fighting for it, or you have to be so virtuous that you don't want anything, or you have to be manifesting. So you're not just in a wanting stage, you're in an imagining stage, right? That's a good one. Yeah. So like, first of all, wanting and having desire is shamed anyway, right? No matter what it is, you want a bigger job, you're boastful, or you're committing one of the seven deadly sins, whatever it is. So I think there is shame in wanting it all. And then to have to ask a partner for it and be vulnerable enough to open yourself up to potential criticism because you're talking

to people who heard the same messages you heard, that what you want is not okay, or you're asking for too much. So it's a layered problem. And then when people come to us, and I'll speak from my don't, the reason I do this work is because I spent so many years being ashamed and embarrassed of what I wanted. And I want to save people from that. I mean, I can't save people in that way, but you can help them. Yeah. Trying to normalize kink and just make people realize this is not the big, bad boogeyman. And, but shame comes from so many areas and then we're putting other people's stuff on us and then carrying it through the world thinking this is my cross to bear, as we say in Catholic religion, you know, like I just have to put up with it and it's wrong to want it. So I'll

just hold it instead of sharing it. And do you think people are, I think they are, hiding far more of themselves than their partners may realize? Always. Yes. It's really interesting. I think sometimes one of the hardest people to share with is the person you care about the most. I always joke it's like the person, you don't want to open up to the same person who cleans your toilet bowl or like helps you when you're sick. There's some vulnerability when we talk about sex or desire or wanting where you're letting someone into something

that has been your entire life, your secret life, your secret desires and sharing them is really scary. Yeah, it's very vulnerable. One of the exercises that I've always loved to do with couples, especially when they're trying to revitalize their sexual connection

or they've gone through a period of disconnect is I have them create a fantasy box. And what they do is they each write down all the fantasies that they would like to act out together. So I'm not saying, you know, you don't have to write down your fantasy about the guy who is your kid's soccer coach or whatever. You know, if you're not like unless you want to act that out, that may be a larger conversation. I don't know. But you write down all the fantasies and role plays and whatever's that you have. and then on a list, each of you. And then you have to make the agreement

that you are not going to, you don't have to agree to everything, but you're going to come up with a master list by sharing both of them and you're going to negotiate. So if one of you wants to have sex in public and the other could never imagine that, then maybe you do it in your backyard

when no one's looking or in your car, you know, on a quiet road or something, right? But you come up with these and some are just going to be an absolute no. And you're not allowed to judge each other. You know, like you're not allowed to be like, are you crazy? You know, you may judge each other. You have to work that through, but you have to be respectful, right?

Yeah. And then at the end, you come up with like a master list. And then you put each of those on a piece of paper in a box. And then once a month, twice a month, however often it is, you pull one out. And whoever's fantasy that was is the one kind of responsible for setting it up. But it starts so many amazing conversations. and people are like, I had no idea you were into that. It's a fun exercise to do.

I love that. And for that, it kind of starts with the prompt. Yeah. You know, of you have to put this information out there. So you have to dig deep in yourself. Yeah. Figure out what you're interested in, write that down. And I think that we're also just not taught a lot

about how to have conversations about intimacy, desire. Sex ed does not prepare you for this. So you have to figure it out on your own. And I think that, again, in society, we're taught when you go on a first date, you're not asking about these things. You're asking about their job, their family, if your values align.

And that's important stuff. I don't want to take away from that. But I think we often minimize the sexual side of it and the intimate side of it. And that becomes an afterthought, even an aftermarriage thought or convo. So how soon do you think you should bring it up? I think you have to decide where the priority is for you.

So if you tell me it's number one And for me, it was number one. I needed my fetish desire met and understood. Bring it up early, even on the first date. If it's lower on your priority list, then like you can go in order of your priority. So if it's pretty low priority, 12 dates in. But I would never recommend going beyond three months of your. Oh yeah. And like, certainly before you're going to have sex, like I think if you're going to have sex, even if you're going to have regular vanilla sex, if you, well, if you have a fetish, you're going to need it for, you know, you're going to want it and need it, but let's say it's a kink, right? Then you're going to want to bring that up maybe at 12 weeks. If it's a fetish, I feel like you need to bring it up before you have sex, whenever that's going to be. And that's where the priority is. It's sort of like if sex also if sex is really important to you, I'd have no problem with someone bringing that up on a second or third date, even if it's vanilla, because aligning there, it could save a lot of conversations.

And I think, you know, I'm sure you'll agree with me, but I feel like a lot of kink relationships, because of the nature of them, and we're going to talk about consent and how that works in a minute, but even just the other logistical aspects of it, they seem to require and just naturally engage in more communication around sex than conventional relationships. So I'm wondering what you can share about that and what all couples can learn from it, because like, why is it easier for people to discuss boundaries and like a scene they're going to have around BDSM and BDSM? I keep we keep saying that that's bondage, dominance, bondage, dominance, submission, submission, sadomasochism, sadomasochism. yeah yeah we always joke in our communities we need a better acronym because like there's too many too many words for all the letters like because even the d so the b is just bondage but the d is dominance and discipline oh so it's dominance and discipline okay see bondage dominance and discipline sada submission and sado masochism yep okay so like there's a lot in there But to your point on, I think that no one's just born a better communicator just because

I'm kinky. What happened was I had to play intimacy conversation on hard mode. I had to find words to describe things that my partners had never heard of. So I think it's helping people understand. I couldn't just say, I want you to spank me. Well, I did. And then I realized this is not getting me to where I want to be. So I had to like continuously explain what I wanted.

And one of the hacks I learned, and then I got certified as a coach and learned even more, was don't just tell them you want to be spanked. Explain how you want to feel. Because that's a universal thing. And that applies to bondage, any type of kink or role play. You don't just say, I want to do bondage. You want to say, when I'm in bondage, I feel safe, secure, held. you talk about the feeling because that's more relatable you're gonna really and also informs

how they're gonna do it yes the psychology they're not an expert yes it's like the approach you're gonna take but I think one of the key things kinksters also have is they solicit feedback after a scene after a session they have a debrief they have a debrief and I think that vanilla or at least non-kinky couples don't have as much need for a debrief because it's what society expects it's what's expected this is sex that was great hope it was good for you yeah you taught you it's exactly it's just like it happened sex ed class or you were taught in sex ed class so you just assume it's good boundaries are a conversation I'm surprised we don't all have more like that one even boggles my mind because we all have places I think we don't like to be

touched as much like don't grab the fat on my belly you know or like please don't focus on that that's a boundary for a lot of people. And I'd encourage people to share them. I think kinksters just happen to do it more because you're playing in slightly more extreme circumstances. So you really think sometimes you have to think like, OK, you can tie me up, but I be careful or I don't like my arms tied behind my back, only above my head because it feels too tight on my shoulders. You know, you're and the safety word is really important. Yes. And I do think more people are adopting a safe word just in any situation because it's an easy way to communicate a big feeling. Yeah. My husband and I have a safe word when we did this earlier in our marriage,

when one or the other of us was like really falling into what we would call a persona, like falling into a role or getting triggered about something. We would either have a hand gesture or a word, you know, like pineapple or bananas or something that was like, hey, you're being a little harsh or I'm seeing this dynamic that we've already recognized kicking into gear. It was kind of a shortcut. Exactly. Because then you could, you even, it gives you a chance to take a breath and think, what do I, I'm being triggered. Yeah. I'll use the safe word and now let me check in my body what I'm actually feeling here. Yeah. And so when you talk about the kind of debrief, are you talking, because I know you talk, I've heard you talk about aftercare.

Is that what you're talking about with aftercare? I mean, I'm also curious what that would look like after an argument or after a difficult situation, not just after a sexual situation, but explain that and why it's so important. Sure. So for me, the feedback session is after even aftercare. So after a scene, this can even be non-kinky sex. You take care of each other. And usually the bottom, which for all intents and purposes, let's say the person being penetrated would be higher priority on the list of the person who needs to be taken care of.

So if you're a submissive, a bottom, or let's just say the one being penetrated, you are the person who is sort of like held. Sorry, say that again. Or a spank. Or a spank. I feel very seen. Thank you. you're the person who like that person the bottom in the situation you check in on them you make sure they're okay uh do they need water do they need anything are they feeling like they're being

put back together post whatever happened and vice versa i always recommend that you also do that for the spanker the top the dom after you are put back together you check in with them and see if there's anything that they need once you're that's the aftercare and then comes a debrief later how was that what can we do better what did you like yeah and some people would prefer the feedback before so that the aftercare can take away the sting of any feedback but I do prefer the aftercare first because I think it's the higher priority yeah and then the feedback can come after that even the next day yeah like how are you feeling aftercare can even happen the next day again a little bit just to check in and make sure you're okay.

And I think that's, yeah, that's pretty much the feedback I'm talking about. It's separate from aftercare. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. And so what concerns you most about modern relationships right now? Hyper-independence. I think that sharing emotionally

and being vulnerable with each other is actually something that we are shying away from. We value strength, leadership, and independence. You're taught that you're only really a capable human if you're being self-sufficient. And I see it play out in relationships a lot. It's sort of like you do your thing, I do my thing. And we come together in these special ways that we've decided are important, like Sunday dinner, dinner at night, one date night a week, and opening up and leaning on each other

is or can be frowned upon. And I think that that's making its way into people's dating life, how they date, how they view what it is to be in a relationship. And that concerns me. Yeah. Yeah. What I have seen, I mean, I've seen something similar, but even just, you know, I was raised in a generation that I call, you know, I'm in my mid fifties now. I say that we were nursed through burning bras. You know, my mother literally went to those burning bra marches yeah she did not ironically engage that strong she did not claim her own independence and autonomy because she too was a stay-at-home mom and my dad was extremely dominant not in a good way not in a healthy way and controlling to the point where she went to one of those they

used to call them consciousness raising meetings where like women would get together to like open each other's minds to the patriarchy and the dominance and the women's rights and whatever and he and it was in her our building and my dad called and interrupted the meeting to find out when she was going to come home and make him dinner wow so she didn't do it but boy did she pound into my head and so many of my sisters of the same era had the same thing of like whatever you do don't depend on a man be completely financially independent always be able to walk away. I've even talked to so many women. My mother didn't say this, but maybe she might have if she thought of it. Don't be the one to love the most. The one that loves the most

is the most vulnerable and most at the effect of the other partner. Like that in and of itself is so screwed up that you have to defend against someone hurting you in love by not loving them enough. Like the whole dynamic for my age and stage I see is really messed up. And then what I've seen with the youngers is that they just I mean, this is this is just everywhere. It's not just their mothers whispering it into their ears. It's in the advertising. It's in the school. It's I raised three boys and the youngest would crack me up because he'd be like, oh, shit, it's Women's History Month this month, like as soon as that month started. And I remember the first time he said that, I was like, why are you, you know, I got up and I was like, why are you

dissing Women's History Month? He's like, because I am going to be attacked. And he was like an eighth grade. I'm going to be attacked all month long, told how horrible I am and how horrible men are and how. And so I think there is this real accidental in an attempt, which I love the intention, which is to make sure women are empowered and not at the effect of anyone and claiming their space and in their power. We've accidentally been teaching women to shy away from intimacy because like and also confusing. And this, I think, is really important. And I'm just so curious about how it all fits into this conversation we're having. But there is a huge difference between power and control. You can have all the power in the world and not have

to control everything and everyone around you. And that I feel like women do not understand anymore or ever. Maybe they maybe never did, but they certainly don't now. And I'm going to tell you that I have a theory on it. It's not even a theory. I think it's a widely held belief that the reason that we are in this situation is it speaks to even fantasy. We don't have a blueprint for what it is supposed to look like to have true equality. All we know is power and control in a patriarchy. Yeah. So yeah, finding our new way is about. I had to do the same thing. Like the only model for power I had was my dad. I was not going to be like my mom. So the one who has, I'm going to be like him. You know, and in the 80s, when women started really going into the

workforce and Wall Street and different places, they dress like men with big shoulder pads and suits. Right. And so I wasn't until my 40s that I started to really think about and explore what does power look like without having to control everything? And while still being in my feminine energy of emoting and expression and ease and openness and receptivity and having boundaries and having a voice and being assertive when I need to and want to and not being at the effect of everyone and everything around me. That's the power piece, but not having to control my partner either. Yeah. Boy, are women control confused about that, I feel. So what advice would you get, you know, if this is resonating, even especially even this part of the conversation,

and then I have a larger question for you, but what advice would you give a woman who's like, whoa, that's a really good point. How do I start exploring that? I think it's about looking at what feels authentic to you. And I know that's a really simplified answer, but are you really out to control everything or are you out to feel empowered and seen? And why would it require you to be in control of everything, to hold that powerful space for yourself. I think it's a safety thing too. I think we try to control everything because we feel so out of control and we feel so overwhelmed and at the effect. I mean, I'm just imagining like, as I'm even thinking about this, so many of the couples, usually heterosexual couples that I work with who she, you know,

I call it like the alpha woman syndrome she wants so badly so she's a woman who loves 50 shades of gray right like she's taking care of the kids she's taking care of the house she's managing the schedule in the beginning of her relationship she and her friends you know her friends would high-five her because she had him whipped he would dressed in the clothes she picked out for him they went on vacation the vacation she organized and planned but then once they had kids she no longer wanted to organize, plan and manage everything. And he, you know, then starts telling him to step up. Right. It's time for you to step up. I'm overwhelmed. You've got to step up. And then whatever he does, he does wrong. Right. So he's loading the dishwasher and she's

like, oh, you did it wrong and whips all the dishes out and like puts them in the right way or giving the kids a bath. You don't bathe them that way. You bathe them this way, like like micromanaging him. And then eventually she's totally burnt out and resentful and seeing him like a lazy kid. And he's seeing her like a critical mother and he can't do anything right. And I just like, that is such a common scenario. So as I'm thinking about this and even listening to you, like what I would add to what you're saying is that it's natural to want to control everything when you've been controlling everything. And in order to start stepping more into your power, you have to let go of control. And that means things may be messy. The kids may not be

bathed the way you would bathe them. The dishwasher may not be loaded the way you want it to be loaded. You know, like things have to be let go for a while or maybe permanently in order to shift those dynamics let the thing break yeah so the person sees what happens and that that's something I used to do in corporate America as a manager I never micromanaged because I was like I trust them to get to the end and figure it out and to ask me if they need help but also we're not this is not brain surgery it's not heart surgery it's not anything things can break and it'll be okay yeah like they can be put back together and I think the fear of anything being imperfect is what's stopping people from embracing that let it be see what happens mentality yeah

and it's an illusion you learn eventually that control does not keep you safe I know that our brains promise us as long as we are prepared by thinking through everything or knowing we've done it it's almost it's the modern day superstition isn't it it's like this idea that if you can just do it this one way, everything will be fine. Don't step on the cracks. Yeah. Yeah. So one final question. What do you believe creates a relationship where both people feel safe enough to be fully themselves? Forgiveness. That's a good one. The willingness to listen and hear the other person's point of view and forgive them when they're sorry or talk through it to the point that you're able to let go of resentment. Forgiveness is a tough word, you know, but the ability to listen and

let go of resentment, I think really helps relationships move past some of those smaller arguments that can become big things over time. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's true. And remembering, like really continuing to feed, nurture, and remember that you are allies. Same team. Just that phrase alone can get you through a lot. The reminder, like, hey, I'm here with you. I am on your team, even if it doesn't seem like it right now. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Dames, thank you so much for joining us. Tell us where people can learn more about you and all your offerings. Sure. You can go to amandadames.com and all of my information is there. But if you are on social media, on Instagram, I am the underscore kink consultant. and I like to post little daily nuggets, both about kink and relationships in general. And further to that,

I also have a podcast called the Kink Consultant Podcast. And if you are ever interested in more topics like this, you can go deep and I have a library of episodes that explore a lot of kinks. Oh, great.

All right. So we'll check that out. We'll put it all in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining us, Amanda. And thank you for all your honesty and openness. It was fun talking to you. Likewise. i went to the doctor said i'm crazy for your love