Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - What’s the Secret to Overcoming Trauma in Love?

Episode Date: December 25, 2024

What do you do when your relationship feels stuck in a cycle of disconnection? Do you ever feel like no matter how hard you try, you and your partner just can’t sync up? Perhaps past trauma is creating invisible walls, or the pressures of daily life are slowly pulling you apart. How can you break through and rebuild trust and intimacy when life keeps throwing curveballs? In this Language of Love session, I’m thrilled to welcome back Stacey and Brian. It’s been about a month since we last checked in with them, and I’m excited to see how things have evolved. There’s a lot to unpack today, and we dive deeper into the underlying issues driving their tension and explore how they can start showing up for each other in more meaningful ways. Here is what you’ll learn in this episode: Why “disconnected intimacy” is a relationship red flag How small changes build big trust Why aligning on decisions is crucial and how to avoid undermining each other. How financial stress impacts emotional and physical connection—and what to do about it. Communication hacks, conscious loving tips, and the importance of stepping back during heated moments. Remember, healing and connection are journeys best taken with the right tools. Ready to deepen intimacy? Check out my Quantum Sex Course, or explore must-reads like Conscious Loving by Gay and Katie Hendricks and The New Rules of Marriage by Dr. Terrence Real. For trauma recovery, tools like EMDR and the Drama Triangle that I teach about in Quantum Love can be transformative. Have questions or stories? Email me at [e-mail], and share this episode—because love is a journey we take together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself, and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is. It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. Okay, Brian and Stacey, welcome back to the language of love. It's been, I guess, about a

month or so since I last. So first of all, let's check in with how you're both doing right now, and then get into what's happened since we last spoke there were lots of things on the agenda I think we're struggling yeah I think we're laughing at the way you're both kind of looking at each other I'm not laughing at you struggling just okay so you're struggling what do you mean by that how so because we were supposed to put sex on the back burner I think it brought up a lot of different things for me and maybe it brought up a lot of different things for Brian which he can speak on that I somewhat felt like very I don't know it's almost like I I wasn't wanted needed uh or loved for that matter I sort of felt a little bit of disconnection

okay so wait let me just stop you there hold that thought I don't want you to lose your train of thought but I just want to clarify do you mean so I told you last time that for the time being because of your trauma history and all and the way you were disassociating during sex that we should take sex off the table take that pressure off the table and and begin to rebuild your relationship your sexual relationship from the ground up and what I think I hear you saying, tell me if I'm correct, is that when you weren't having sex anymore, even the disassociated kind that you noticed a change in the dynamics in the relationship. Okay. And, and what you noticed is, and I think what you just said is that you weren't loved or what did you say? Say that again,

just so I understand what you're talking about. Loved, wanted, needed, connected. and how did that show up what made you feel that way or what changed I don't know I sensed distance I sent coldness I sensed just shortness almost like I'm being punished or something for not having sex okay and was has there been any non-sexual physical affection have you done any kind of holding or touching or connecting in any way that isn't sexual? Very little. It's not been, it's not really like it's natural or normal for me. It's natural and normal for Brian, but in a sense, he feels that if he has to do that, it's almost like he's forcing it rather than it just happening it's almost like he wants me to do that as well and for me it's just

i just don't do that i don't know i guess we're kind of go ahead we're kind of like stuck a little bit because when you said you know sex off the table which was actually a good idea i thought perhaps that we would start building a relationship from ground up like start with like having space to hold each other's hands having space to you know maybe like give a non-negotiable leading to massage like just simple touch or like simple like you know hold each other on the couch or something so like leaning out before talking to you for a long time i would just not come on to her anymore because i would feel that before i'll like small little floor foreplay of like touching on the butt or grabbing her in the kitchen like in terms like like hugging close

right and having your body held close to me but for like six months to a year i stopped doing that because it wasn't reciprocal and she told me that she feels uncomfortable with that kind of stuff she feels like she's just an object like i'm just gonna that's how she was grabbed before i guess in the past or what have you so and i feel like a monster doing that so i stopped doing that and then um so when we try to build things back up under like a suggestion of sex off the table i want to exercise the basics like i wanted to say okay well maybe we should start by you know holding each other's hands just looking to each other's eyes let's talk about dreams and goals let's let's plan for this time type of time to do that and it was probably hard for michelle

because she didn't it's not that she didn't want to do it but every time i suggested to do it she says no i need a professional to go through me with that and i i was just frustrated because i thought well to hold hands you don't need a professional like i'm not gonna we can just talk on on like basic surface level and take it slow like very slowly right so that was a tough part i think it was hard to have us kind of go through that it was hard and then day number 31 or something we had sex that night no no it was probably like maybe a week or two after and then again day 31 or something okay all right let's put a pin we're going to get into why and when and how it happened that you had sex in a second but let me just back up for a sec stacy when he's

saying that when he tried and talked to you about non-sexual physical affection connecting spending that kind of intimate, emotional, and lovingly physically connected, but not sexually physically connected contact with you that you said you needed, at least according to Brian, you said you needed professional guidance around that. Is he correct? And what did you mean? For one, I'm always going to have in the back of my mind that this sort of physical touch or, sorry, intimacy is going to always lead somewhere else. It's not just going to be for what it is. and then second of all the reason I said we need professional guidance is because I feel when it comes to closeness or intimacy or just love like you know holding hands hugging touching all that

stuff that I don't know we have to learn how to it's almost like communicate because when we don't have proper communication between each other and we're not on the same page feed whether it's parenting or in-laws or what have you then for me that forms like a disconnection I don't feel like he has my back or that he's there for me like I always feel like I'm on the other side so if I feel that if during that time where we're not doing anything then there's a reason it's because I feel all those other things. So it's very difficult for me to be, I don't know, to receive it, I guess. So what you're saying is that you don't really feel in other ways. And that's common for both men and women often is that you can start to feel like you aren't allies. We talked about

this last time, right? The importance of remembering that you're allies and not against each other. And when you aren't, and so what it sounds like you're saying is that your story is that you, there were these other things going on in the relationship that made you feel like he didn't have your back, that you weren't allies. And then it's hard to be vulnerable and emotionally intimate. You can be probably more easily physically intimate because you'll disassociate through that. As crazy as that is, for many sexual abuse victims, it's easier to have sex, ironically than it is to look into someone's eyes and hold them or be held for the reasons you say one, because there's a lack of trust that there isn't an ulterior motive or that he's going to

try to cop a feel or going to try to push it further. He's going to get turned on and wanted to go further or something might happen. So there's a lack of trust there. I'm not saying he deserves that lack of trust. Right. Trust is about your trauma. I'm not saying it's your fault, try in that life, Jess. And the second piece is that, I mean, it's hard for everyone to be vulnerable, but it's especially hard for someone who hasn't had the practice or the permission to be vulnerable because you were never given a chance to be vulnerable because everyone who you were, or most people who you were sexual with were taking advantage of you or abusing you or, you know, so you weren't safe. So you've never had the experience of being safe sexually.

you've only had the experience of disassociating sexually. I understand what you're saying. And at the same time, and you're right to an extent that getting guidance around navigating some of these communication issues will help. And the same is also true that if, and I see this happen in almost every heterosexual and gay couple where a man's involved, basically, this isn't a criticism. This is just the way men are wired. And I think it's part of their DNA and it's partly the way they're conditioned that they achieve. And this is part of the issue in the relationship here is that men achieve that sense of emotional closeness through the physical act of sex. So ironically, which we don't be

doing, if you were having dissociated sex with him, he would naturally have your feel closer to you and see you as an ally and have your back more than if you aren't having sex with him. So it sounds like some of that may have been going on. So when he didn't have that, Brian, you can tell me whether there's any truth to this. And this isn't an accusation of you. This is just kind of, for lack of a better way to explain it, common male human nature that when you don't have that physical sexual connection, you don't have the deep emotional connection. And when you don't have the deep emotional connection, it's easy to forget your allies. A hundred percent true. And when the moment we had sex, I was like in love and oh my

gosh, I wanted to, she was like, oh my God, you bring home flowers. I'm like, no, it's been on my mind the whole time. Like I want to say like, that was great. That was amazing. Oh my God. Like thank you. And I, there was so many things going through my mind of like all this love and thanks and awesomeness. And, but yet I just kind of look at her and I'm like, she's not feeling that way towards me at all, but that's how men are connected. I understand that it's, you know, obviously physical touch is my, my love language or intimate, that part of that. Right. So I understand that for her, cause I just described how men work, right. How women work is that we achieve a sense. We want to be physically intimate, both. I mean, this doesn't really

apply to Stacey or any sexual trauma victim who's been willing and able to have dissociative sex, right? So she doesn't, you know, your average woman who can't do that, who can't leave her body or doesn't leave her body and is present during sex, she doesn't want to have sex unless she feels emotionally connected to the person she's having sex with, at least not in a long-term relationship. Maybe in the beginning when things are hot and heavy and you don't really know each other that well, that happens. But in a long-term relationship, a huge part of a woman's sexual desire is rooted in how emotionally close she feels to the person she's going to have sex with. So this is the irony of what I call the sex romance stalemate, right? She's not interested

in sex. So he pulls back emotionally. He pulls back emotionally and she's that much less interested in sex. Now in your case, and in the case of many dissociators, where it really applies is in this non-physical intimacy, because it's basically about the high stakes physical contacts. So in someone like Stacey's situation, you know, Stacey, while we don't want you to have dissociative sex because it's embedding the trauma more, you certainly can. And you could maintain the connection and you could maintain the peace and you could get flowers and have him have your back, leaving your body and not having sex. I mean, having sex, but not being present, right? Like you could totally do that for the high stakes thing. And the thing that you need the physical

safety for is all the other stuff. That's what makes you feel vulnerable, right? Does that make sense? Yes. Yeah. So, and does that make sense to you, Brian? Yeah, I can see that for sure. Yeah. So let me ask you this. Would you be happy with, and I'm not, I mean, I haven't asked Stacey yet. I just really am curious what your take on this is. Would you be happy in a life where Stacey was a regular sexual partner for you, like she has been, gives you the physical intimacy in that way that you're craving, but isn't in her body while she's doing it? We've been like this for 20 years.

Right. Are you happy? Would you be happy continuing that? No, it's just kind of, the novelty wears off after a while. In one sense, I'm feeling that, oh, she does show that she loves me and such, but she's truly not fulfilled. She's truly not safe. She's truly not herself. And there's a surface level of intimacy in sex versus there's never deeper.

And what if I told you that her, in this case, Stacy loving you, because you said she does love me, which is how someone, you know, many men, most men experience love is through the act of sex. So if having sex with you makes you feel loved, but, but the act of what makes you feel loved as it is now is embedding her trauma more deeply. Is that okay with you? That's why we're on the call. It's not okay. I knew you needed help. Yeah, that's not okay, right? So what's going to have to happen for this to work is that you're going to have to learn, Brian, how to reach out more emotionally and with emotional intimacy without the catalyst of the physical sex. And you, Stacey, are going to have to learn how to open your heart a little more while staying in your body without the physical act of sex. How would you want to reach out emotionally more?

Maybe you should ask Dr. Laura about that. Well, I'm curious what Stacey would say. But I think from what she's saying, what creates a sense of emotional closeness in most women, and I think this is what she's saying, is a sense of I am seen separate from sex, just like emotionally day-to-day life. I am seen. My man has romantic feelings for me, loves me, and wants me for more than my body and the orgasms I can give him. He wants me for my soul and my heart and my mind. He admires me as a human being. He respects me as a human being and a woman and as the mother of his children. and, and he honors me and he wants to be around me. And he thinks about me other than just how I can give him an orgasm. But like, he thinks about me as a human being and as someone who's like

his, you know, his best friend and his ally. And so he has my back. He cares about my feelings. He wants me to be happy. It's that kind of stuff, right? It's the kind of stuff you do after sex. yeah so on that part there i'm just i'm just confused because i thought like well we weren't having sex i thought i was emotionally trying to connect i thought i was trying to be there and be like you know like hey let's do the relationship hey let's talk about this i thought i was trying i believe you i'm not saying you didn't but somehow it didn't land so let's figure out and i love that you're saying that and that you were trying right but somehow it didn't translate Right. Now, the only thing I have to go on and I want you to dig in a little more with us here, Stacey.

The only thing I have to go on so far is that you were saying there were some incidents and things that were happening where you were frustrated and feeling angry and disconnected from him because there were ways in which you felt he didn't have your back and he was being cold to you. so can you talk about what that was so maybe Brian and I can understand more what was missing for you to make you that kept you from feeling safe and willing to be intimate that way so there's a couple of things and I try my best for us to both be on the same page when it comes to parenting and when it comes to just being fair to one another to learn how to argue better, to learn how to communicate better. I mean, I'm not perfect at it. I make mistakes myself. And I just found that whenever it was time to work on the relationship as in terms of communicating or how to argue better, Brian would not make the time for it. He would say he's busy.

And in terms of parenting, we would discuss something. He would be on the same page. and then when the kids are around and we have to discuss that very same thing, then his ideology would shift and then it would look like it's coming from me. I'm the one thinking a different way and Brian's thinking a totally different way and Brian's gonna get his way

and the kids are gonna get their way based on what Brian thinks. Okay, so Brian, do you know what she's talking about in those two situations? I don't, I will ask maybe more questions about communicating or arguing better, were you trying to make an appointment about discussing how to fight

or was there a fight you were having that you wanted to get into more? No, I try on a regular basis to read with Brian, like maybe two or three times to figure out where we're stuck because most of our arguments happen because either one of us is triggered and it's got to do with our childhoods. So I'm trying my best to not let that happen

and understand that he's not my parent or he's not somebody from the past where he's saying something or doing something and i'm reacting based on that and what are you asking him to do that he didn't seem willing to do read this book this book by dr terence real and it's about marriages and how you communicate and how men are with women and and so and i have a feeling that it's probably because it's really hard for Brian because it's pretty in depth and it probably digs in a bit too deep where maybe he's finding it hard to come out of after. I don't know. I'm not sure, but I do know the first couple of times that we didn't do it, he had to take a break after 15 minutes because it was just too

much for him to handle. And then he never, ever came back to it again. You know what she's talking about brian oh yeah yeah we're talking about the core negative image we have of our spouse and i just found i kept kind of spinning over and it was a really lengthy long exercise that was you know a negative way of talking about my wife and i didn't i don't know i just it was didn't seem purposeful i i kind of get what the author was trying to do but the exercise itself was laborious and taxing and it was really draining trying to find out how to do it 100 and i guess as people say like my bandwidth is just i was trying to do so many different things of learnings and teachings and running the business anyhow whatever i just i really could

only give so much energy to it and at that point i needed a break i did want to come back to it but that was like maybe thursday or even tuesday of last week and then the weekend got busy but i do want to give another go it's unfortunate though we'll just i'll forget i have to reread again we never i feel like it's a never-ending cycle we never get anywhere in the book but it's really really hard i mean i love that you're trying to do that both of you but it's really hard to do this on your own i mean to change to change yeah that is trauma-informed relationship dynamics on your own and get stuck on your own when your whole problem is communication in the first place and then communicating through the problems with communication is like that's really

hard it's tough yeah I mean I don't have a choice right because I married Brian for long term like we're gonna die together or separately or whatever but we're gonna be together in the long run but I also want to make sure that we're not just doing it just to be just because we say we're gonna do it i want to actually with my best friend and have that it's it's obviously not going to be like how we were not saying you can't do it yes right so i gotta do something now because i can't afford therapy and i don't know how long it's going to take we're going to talk about that were you able to find any resources through yes no insurance yeah so i found this one doctor however she's on waitlist till March. And I had my doctor do a requisition, but then it didn't work out. And I

have to do it myself. So there's a bit of a lag in between. But I did find somebody that would take our health insurance for it. So that's a plus. And she does EMDR. Yeah. What about couples therapy? Can you find So then I found then I found this other person who I saw through my group where she is a victim of sexual abuse as well. And she does sexual therapy and she does couples therapy. So she's on also on a long wait list till March. But we both resonate with her. Yes, we both we both connect with her because Rob went to I mean, Brian went to go see her one of the days and he connected with what she was saying

and how she made sense. She explained what I was going through and it resonated with him and he understood. And I met her and she helped me out with a few things. So it's just a matter of now figuring out when she can see us and how I can afford to see her because I think she would be great. Yeah.

So I think that's going to be really important. I mean, I can help you guys as much as I can and I can give you some resources and we can even have a separate session on, you know, something I call the drama triangle, which is a way to kind of work with communication around sticky issues, but the kinds of stuff you guys are dealing with, you really need weekly, especially for the communication and for the job, you need weekly sessions with someone who can kind of guide you through, or at least every two weeks, right? But

ideally every week, because there's going to be so many things that come up and ways in which you're consciously getting, you know, aware that you're getting triggered, but lots of ways in which you're not getting aware you're getting triggered. And even after being together, as long as you have these embedded communication dynamics and patterns that you just kind of get stuck in. Hey, it's Dr. Laura Berman. I've been a sex, love and relationship therapist for over 30 years. And the main question I always get asked is how the heck do we spice it up in a long-term monogamous relationship? Well, if you want to take your love life, your sex life to the next level, whether you're in a relationship or not, check out my free course on quantum sex.

It's going to teach you how to take your sexual response to the next level capable of full body orgasms, how to use sex magic to manifest your dreams, and how to connect on an even deeper level sexually with your partner. Just go to drlauraberman.com and you'll find it right there on the homepage, the quantum sex free course. Check it out and let me know what you think. so let's put a pin in that piece because march while it's a ways away is not super super far away i mean you guys have been dealing with this 20 years you can deal with it a few more months yeah we can support you through that as best we can but what about brian what she's saying around the co-parenting things and the feeling that you're not on this that you that you when you talk you guys are on the same page do you know what she's talking about but she said yeah i agree

we need to be on the same page as much as much as possible but there's certain times with different belief systems or ideologies that stacy has that i try to go to bat for and then there's 25 left over i'm kind of like well it's okay that's not going to be the you know the thing that breaks the camel's back let's just kind of look at something different and she thinks that i'm overruling it or i'm not paying attention to her or not working hard enough it ends up being i think for the most part that we try to we do i truthfully believe 75 of the time we really try to stick together and stick to our guns on things on our decisions but then we get triggered in different ways and there's like a couple sticking points that end up being like i say something and she

doesn't approve it or or she says something i don't approve it we both have our opinions or then i think very often i think it comes down to where she believes she has a final right the final say because she has a parenting more than i do because she stays home and runs the business from home and talks to the girls more at home because i'm out of the house very often like in and out throughout the whole day like back when i'm never at home really like digesting all the information they had for the day so and because she works on herself and listens to more parenting although i do in my car but she reads on it more and such so she believes that she has the final say on that kind of stuff and how dare i challenge that or speak to that in a different way and the

other thing that comes up is also the fact that so sometimes i can see um what brian does and where he's gone to the dark side or he's gone to his past and then i can see my kid she's triggered with something and i can see it just going to unfold into this explosion and so i'm trying to make him understand where she's coming from and i'm trying to make her understand where he's coming from so it's almost like i'm the mediator but then it ends up being that brian will get upset at me because i'm making him look like the bad guy but i'm really just saying you're both wrong and this is where you went wrong and this is where you went wrong and i'm explaining, like the reason you're getting triggered is because this is what happened

when you were a kid. And right now she's drawing the exact same scenario from your past. And are you saying this in front of her or in private? In front of her. So that's the thing. You have to have all of these conversations. This is like number one rule that will save you so much trouble emotionally between the two of you is if Brian, you are about to change your agreement. So you made an agreement, let's say with Stacy, that you're going to handle a parenting situation a certain way. And then you're in the moment with one of your kids and you're feeling differently. You don't make the call then. You don't overrule the agreement.

You say, you know what? I need to think, unless it's like urgent and something dangerous is going to happen or it must be set right in that second. You say, listen, we're going to come back to this. Mom and I need to talk some more about this, you know, because there's something. And then you offline, even if you have to leave the room, you know, for 15, 20 minutes, you go and you have that conversation separately. And when he is in his trigger and reacting from a triggered place, you guys come up with a sign that is still going to trigger you when you give each other a sign. So fair warning there. But that's OK. Yeah. You agree on a sign. Yeah. And let's say Brian is getting triggered with the kids or you

are acting in a way that doesn't feel in alignment to him for the kids. Then same thing. You give a little finger on the nose or like, and you go off and have a side conversation. You never, ever, ever diminish the power or respect for the other parent in front of the kids, even if it's under the auspices of like trying to illuminate the two of them about some psychological dynamic, the child doesn't experience it that way. Right. Is that his mom throwing dad under the bus? Yeah. Taking my side or whatever. So, or at least throwing dad under the bus. And so he's a common enemy. Yeah. I think we both are guilty of that. Yeah. Thinking that we're doing something good by being fair, but it actually isn't. And you may be, but the problem is you're doing more

harm than good, creating a shaky foundation in the way the kids see you. What they need more than you responding in a certain way to them or setting a certain boundary with them, although those things are important. What they need most of all is a sense of the two of you is having a strong connection foundation allyship and most most most of all being a united front otherwise they do everything within their power those little yeah say it say it i want to i want to say it little fuckers i like you yes that's what i mean whatever they do yeah yeah and it's not that they're bad people but it's just like do whatever they can to get there. So you have to be a united front and they will test, they will

test, they will test. So there's nothing wrong with disagreeing. There's nothing wrong with changing. I mean, this was one of the biggest issues I had. Now our kids are grown, but it was one of the biggest, biggest, biggest trials I had with my husband. Cause we had really different ideologies around how to deal with emotional stuff and safety stuff and just different philosophies. And it was so hard. And it was also important, another really important piece. And this is really hard.

I think it's especially going to be hard for you, Stacey, because you have such a trauma history that, and both of you do to differing degrees, but there's this deep desire to save your kids from any kind of trauma. right? So you're, you're uber emotionally protective of them. Yeah. What you need to know is like, this is about, you know, Brian respecting and loving and honoring you is really important, but you also respecting and honoring him as like, even if he may fuck up, even if he may be in his trigger sometimes, even if he may be reactive sometimes, he is not those horrible men that you grew up with. He loves your children. You can trust that. And so at a certain point,

and this is really hard. It was hard for me too, because I'm a trauma victim in another way. I was severely emotionally abused growing up. So when my husband would get like big and angry at the kids or kind of lose himself a little bit in his anger or get really kind of punitive with them, I would want to step in and I would sometimes give him a sign or whatever. But in the end, I had to understand, and every parent has to understand this, that you absolutely cannot control your children's relationship with their father, just like he can't control their relationship with you. To a certain extent, unless there is severe abuse or abuse, it's none of your business.

If your daughter feels angry at him or misunderstood by him or not close to him or abandoned by him. Of course, you can talk to him offline about it. You can try to call him to consciousness. I'm not saying you're doing anything, Brian, but I just mean from her perspective, you can try to call him to consciousness about it, but it is not your job. It will kick you in the teeth. Every single time you try to navigate between the two of them, they will both end up pissed at you and nothing will get resolved. You have to let them figure it out themselves. Right. Right.

And you're doing both of them, especially, you know, it's important to remember your child a disservice, even though it doesn't feel that way in the moment because you're in protector mode, you are doing her a disservice by jumping into hero mode and standing in between her and her father resolving this on their own. You can advise him, you know, whisper it in his ear offline. You can try to calm to consciousness about it offline. and that he could always go back and circle back with her and say, you know what? I shouldn't have yelled at you, or I shouldn't have said that, or I know I told you you could do this, but I really

don't think it's a good idea. Or I know I told you you can't do this, but I think you can, you know, you can always go back. You don't have to resolve everything in the moment. It's more important that you don't, that you are united front in front of them and that you don't get in between them, both of you, you know, that's true for both of you. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. It's a hard thing for us to do this. So we definitely have to learn how to argue with her. Yeah. Well, that's the key, learning to fight for love and not just to win and learning to stay conscious. What I would say to you is if you want to do a little book club together, try Conscious Loving by Gay and Kitty Hendricks. Okay. Gay and Kitty Hendricks, Conscious Loving.

okay they talk a lot about communication and about the way that our kind of shadows come up and staying out of what they call persona you know when you get it when you're in personas when you're convinced you're right and you're in your trigger basically um and i can send you some stuff too on the drama triangle and different things that will help in the moment and communication, but you have to be able to practice this. And I would almost, yes, you can do those book clubs, but I would almost rather you like have these offline conversations about real things that are happening, right. And practice staying, you know, practice those communication skills around that when it happens away from the kids than anything else, you know, and the bottom line

is you're not going to protect your kids from pain as much as we want to you're not going to be able to including pain that each of you are gonna despite all of your best efforts deliver them yeah you can be guaranteed you're gonna fuck them up that's what we despite all of our best efforts dr laura is there any truth to i was talking to michelle uh stacy today is there any truth to um i'm not a good actor we're just changing your name is there is there any truth to uh i feel like the real reason why stacy's upset at me there's an underlying anger an underlying resentment and besides that stuff from her past yeah i think in the present moment too it's also you know me not providing me not making her feel safe me not having you know the house

reno me you know us that's not going on vacation like i'm i'm the one i guess selling or making that my she helps in this the back end part of the business but like i'm the one to bring in the income but she facilitates it to happen so i'm not demeaning anything that she does because she takes out house and everything else but i think she's um under she's i feel like there's a bunch of resentment built up underneath that she just can't fall in love with uh me because i'm just not being the hero or the provider so i feel like um there's a lot of this buildup and anger and resentment towards me with that and until you know i fix stuff in our business and make things really happen and to do that i i feel like she's worried she's upset she has to you know

how are we gonna pay the bills and stuff so i feel like that's leaving her scared and unsafe and i think that kind of she doesn't want to be scared and unsafe she nobody wants to so am i right is there any of that that still gives you that i love that you asked that question that was a really vulnerable thing to ask. Thank you for that. I think there is something in the background because it's actually really tough for me to be unstable. For me, I have to be stable in order to feel safe. It's almost like I need predictability. Do you have a story that he could or should or would be doing more than he's already doing? Do you have a story that he's, you do? I do. What is your story that he could be doing more of or differently? I think it boils down to

saying what you're going to do and doing what you're going to say. I mean, yeah. Saying what you're going to do and doing what you say. Yeah. And so what does he say he's going to do that he doesn't do. That's in his control. I mean, he could say, I'm going to make us enough money to pay the bills and do everything within his power to do that and not succeed. Right. But that's not him not doing everything he can. Right. So what is he not doing that he says he's going to do? I don't know how to even say this. So like I had to initially before we even decided to do these different things in our in our lives where I had to become you know the stay-at-home person he was taking the brunt end of it and it was very difficult for me to let go of that because

I was also bringing home money and I was going up the ladder and then I had to stop that because he said he would take care of it now he's done an amazing job because I haven't gone back to the corporate world since my second daughter was born and she's 18. So that's amazing. But I feel like if we found something that worked and we discussed it and then it changes and then we're back to square one and it doesn't seem like we move from there, but we have all these ideas of this is what we need to do, but for some reason they never get executed. And who knows, maybe I don't know that you know things change in the world and so you have to do things differently I don't know but I'm just wondering why are we always stuck in the same position and it's been 25 years

and I'm still stuck in the same about it do you ever discuss what he's doing and not doing and how he's trying to execute on the on the different things he's doing sometimes yeah sometimes what I can understand like you know because it's probably really what is it that he should or could be doing differently I guess yeah providing like we look like what what could he do differently go out and get a different job give up on the business like what would it look like for him to what could he be doing that you know of that could change things I think that he could be making decisions on what did work and didn't work and stuck, you know, sticking to that so that he actually, you know, gets rid of all the baggage on the side and then just focuses on the thing

that he knows works because he's really good at what he does. So for him to just switch now to do another job, that doesn't make sense. This has been working for the longest time. It's just all the little tweaks that have to be done i don't know why it's taking so long do you know what she's talking about this is all very abstract for me because i don't know yeah it's just there's a lot of uh technical or manual labor work that has to be done for you know personal training visiting people's homes and i probably have like right now probably 12 or 15 clients we've had some personal trainers who kind of you know stole from us before in the past and took their own clients and such and we're trying to build it up like that every time we think we're gonna be going

forward it's just a bit of a step back and you know when you market you have to market towards a certain demographic when you try to market to a side business like she wants us to do online fitness coaching which I agree with I think we need to do that for sure it's just so hard to build that part of the business plus build this full-time business that is like 80 hours a week plus do marketing on top of that so I'm the marketer I'm the technician I'm doing everything and also I'm trying to read and connect with my wife and my kids and I just feel like I'm stressed out yeah i kind of almost want to not do anything else in my life socially besides um just working as much as i can within the business to provide so that way we can get out of it so

it's a bit of a catch-22 because i want to spend time with my wife and do social things and play pickleball and play volleyball and i wouldn't be able to do that but that takes up time and maybe i just think in the back of my head well if i don't do those things i could maybe carve an extra 10 15 hours you know 10 hours a week where i can really work at this thing and make it happen i just i feel really less than i feel like a not a provider i feel like all the financial troubles just say way on my shoulders a lot to carry a lot to carry i just think obviously all that stuff can lead to the lack of love that she would feel for me a lack of that stress so i know like there was an extra four or five thousand dollars at the end of the month like she'd be

less stressed worry free like i'm pretty sure like things be way better she'd be happier and when that happens that from what i've read and listened to a woman can be more like at ease and more you know able to relax a little bit more maybe feel more well i have some thoughts on that but before we get into that let me just ask you stacy as you're listening to him and he's getting emotional and it's obviously very painful for him. What is your reaction? I can't tell what your, your face has gone kind of flat as he's there speaking. And I don't know what you're thinking or feeling. I understand where he's coming from and I do feel some sort of empathy for him, but at the same time, I almost don't because I feel like we have, it's almost like

i can see there's times where he should be doing things and he doesn't but then says he's so overwhelmed because you haven't planned properly and as much as i think it's extremely hard to be bearing the brunt end of it that's something you took on and i had to take on the other things but that's also very stressful trying to figure out how to feed your family how to keep the house running pay your debtors pay the government there's a lot involved for me as well and so I feel like it's not like I feel like he does absolutely nothing and you know the reason we're like this is because he does nothing that's not what I'm saying he's an extremely hard worker but the thing is I feel as though he just has to make a decision like I feel like he's very

distracted from the things that didn't work and the things that did work and just make a decision on what to do. Help him figure out what works? I've tried. I've tried to help him plan his days. I've tried to help him because I can't just watch someone struggle without offering help wherever I can help. What happens? Yes, but it never happens. He wants to do everything by himself. You know what she's referring to there, right? Yeah. It's a, it just takes a lot of time to brain dump all the stuff that like my, everything's going on in my head. I just recently kind of told her like, Hey, maybe it would be good if you did all my scheduling for me. Cause that's half the battle just drives me nuts of trying to schedule everything. And so I thought, you know,

that that might be something, a good thing for her to take on the scheduling and invoicing of clients. Well, I can tell you this. Okay. If you had another $5,000 in the bank, Every month, whatever it is you think you could use, yes, the stress in the house would be better. The stress levels in the house would be better. Your sexual issues would not be. Some of the resentment would be better, but I don't feel like that's all of it. So I'm saying that because of two reasons.

One, I feel like your story, Brian, is that it's because she's not, you know, that this has less to do with her trauma history and the fact that you're a failure as a provider is really what it's about for you. And I disagree. Okay. I don't think it helps that things aren't going great financially, but I completely disagree with your theory that that's at the root of the problem. It's not, I don't think it's the root. Actually, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry. I'm I apologize. I'm not, I don't need to apologize. I'm just reassuring you of that because it's not the root. I know that it's the trauma. I think it adds to a little bit. But like, it's definitely 75, 80, 90% all the past stuff.

And I can't tell you how many couples I talk to who have more money than God and a wife with exactly the same history and they're having exactly the same scenario playing out. So that's one reason I think it's really important to kind of shift that perspective. The other is getting caught, which is a natural reaction when you're struggling financially and what you're doing isn't creating enough the success you're wanting it to create to start judging yourself and getting down on yourself. But the problem is judging yourself and getting down on yourself then immobilizes you more and it makes you depressed. And then you become less effective and less mobilized and less motivated, right? You start to kind of drink

your own failure Kool-Aid and that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, you know that as a fitness coach, right? Like, you know, who's going to get fit if they think they're going to, you know, they're just fat and unfit and not an athlete and just a failure and a hundred pounds overweight. So what's the point, right? So I think that's a really important assumption to challenge. And I get that it's a point of conflict between the two of you because Stacey has, you know, a story that there's, you could be working, not necessarily even more, but smarter, right? You could be working smarter. You could be working more efficiently. You could be working more targeted and she can be an amazing ally in that. If you're willing to put aside the ego that's

coming from your fear of being a failure and open up to some of that wisdom and what will happen if you do that, a side benefit is that if you open up to her wisdom and even genius in certain areas where maybe, you know, in every couple you have different kinds of geniuses, right? Doesn't mean that one of you is smarter than the other, but she has skill sets that aren't your skill sets, right? And so when you open up to her unique skill sets and you value those and you take those in and you execute on those guess what that does that not just doesn't doesn't just help you but it actually makes her feel closer to you it makes her feel like she has a voice it makes her feel valued and that creates less resentment and more connection because then we're in it together

not him by himself and you by yourself right does that make sense yeah yes so i think that's a really common thing. And guys, like, I can't, I got to do this by myself. If I, if I let you help me, that means I'm, you know, I'm not saying you're, you think this, I'm simplifying here that I'm some sort of loser who can't do it myself. I should be able to do it myself. I know what I'm doing. You know, there's that whole story we adopt, but that ends up biting us in the butt, especially if you want her not to resent you, then let her offer her help, execute on her help. And then if it doesn't work, she can't resent you. I did what you said. I tried the strategy you said. I followed the schedule you suggested. I'm doing it all. And look, right? Then it's no

longer on you. Does that make sense? I'm ready to do some work. Can you help me, genius? Genius to share. And I think that is a place to start, right? That's a place of connection and allyship that you guys can create together. But what I would say is for you, Stacey, you know, he's going to be reaching out for your support. You're obviously going to be giving that support. But if there is a way, just like I was saying that it would, you know, we want Brian to be able to connect with you emotionally without having to have sex as the catalyst for it. I want you, you said to me, we are in this for the long haul. We, neither one of us are going anywhere. Our relationship is secure in that sense, right? That there's no, you know, we're

not leaving each other. Okay. So you're in this together. So even if you're pissed at him, even if you're feeling a little disconnected or undervalued or whatever your story is that day, if you can reach out to him non-sexually physically, if you can create space for him, hold his hand, cuddle, create some physical intimacy, understanding that by no means can it go further. And that has to be really important, Brian, because that's one of her trauma points is, you know, sitting on someone's lap innocently and trying to be close to them and having it turn dark or turn alternative agendas. So it's going to be really important when you do that non-sexual physical intimacy, even if you, you know, get a hard on and you wish it could go

further, that there is zero energy being pushed in that direction. You understand what I'm saying? What if she wants it? What if she asks for it? Do I let it happen? My honest reaction is no, but let's talk about it. Does that happen? It did the other night. So what was that about, Stacey? No, I asked for it. I know that's what he's saying, that what happens if we're, you know, cuddling or talking or kissing or holding hands and it's not going anywhere and I'm not getting into that energy and she wants more, but we're not supposed to do it. Is that crossing a line?

She said, let me just let me do it if it's under my power, under my. I said, OK, I said, I don't know what you wanted the other night. And did you disassociate when you did it or were you present? No, I was present. I think for me, it's almost getting that because I was reading the books that you had suggested and it resonated with me because they said similar things to the things I normally think of. And because one of the individuals is also a past victim, it just, I can relate. She can relate. I can relate. And she almost made it sound, not almost made it sound, she was relaying how this

is normal you know to have feelings of arousal it's normal to do to feel sexual and she almost made me feel as though it's not taboo it's not bad it's not any of those things and so I think because I was reading it and then later that night I watched something where the younger girls on the show were actually vocalizing it and making it sound normal yes for me that's not something i'm used to so i guess i let myself feel that and how was it it was great actually where'd that book go i haven't finished like let me know if there's still some pages i could help read want me to narrate i don't know club on that no problem for that appointment every time but that's really beautiful because first of all and i feel like we may have gotten into this a

little bit last time, but it's really, really common. One of the biggest kind of hurdles I find in sexual assault or abuse victims is this shame around arousal in part because there is natural arousal. Even if you don't want it to be happening, even if it's somebody who you're disgusted by, they are touching places that are full of blood vessels and nerve endings that are sexual centers of your body and your body is going to respond. Your body is even going to lubricate while you're being raped, right? So it gets really confusing for the abuse victim, not only because sex is taboo and wrong and was a source of pain and lack of power, but because I somehow, because I got aroused, I feel guilt and shame around that as if that makes me have wanted it or participated in

it. And that's not true. The arousal is a natural reaction. So I love what you're saying is that When you have this experience of reading about another abuse victim, normalizing arousal, just arousal in general, much less arousal during abuse, and that it is your God-given rights and you are entitled to pleasure and there's nothing wrong with it and there's nothing bad about it. Your body is designed for it, right? And so how beautiful and what a good sign that you were able to, you know, that because of that, you were able to actually experience arousal and stay present in your body.

I think the other ingredient in that was that you were fully in your power, right? So this is what I see often in couples where one partner has much lower desire or willingness than the other partner. And this is not a reason, you know, you could do this as a manipulation. I'm not suggesting it. But what I find is when the pressure is taken off. So what happened in this scenario, Brian, is that there was no expectation of sex. In fact, the opposite.

There was no inherent pressure or hint of expectation. She could be fully present in the moment with you in the sensuality and connection of the moment, right? And because there was no feeling of a need to protect against, avoid, whatever, because nothing else was going to happen, she could just be fully present with you and relax into whatever was happening. And then, oh, I'm feeling something. And then she could be the one to be yay or nay, right?

So I think there's, so in that sense, I think there's nothing, since you didn't disassociate And since you felt in your power around it, I think that's great. The only caveat I would give you is make sure not to have that expectation every time you're having non-sexual physical intimacy. So it's going to be a little bit of a challenge for you, Brian, right? Because you're at the effect, I think you have to go into this, not expecting sex for the foreseeable future and having that emotional, non-sexual, physical intimacy be part of the foundation you're building toward having sex. And if on occasion, not to expect it, it happens differently. And if it happens occasionally that she, for whatever reason is feeling it without having

an expectation that it will, then you, and she's fully present and in her power and in her body, then go ahead. I think it can get a little tricky if you have that expectation, right? You can imagine that if you go into your next handholding or cuddling or non-sexual kissing connecting session, and there's like, Ooh, is she going to want it? you know then that changes the energy of the exchange yeah i understand i get that i'm willing yeah but at the same time don't you feel that it's unfair because now it's on my terms no i get it i understand i don't feel it's not fair no i do i get it and what you're and what you're actually

doing they see it is on your terms but guess what you also i mean when was the last time you initiated sex right yeah so I think it's great if it's on your terms you're actually also initiating and that is a huge gift even if it happens one out of 50 times that is a huge gift yeah I mean it's a work in progress but yeah so I think if you guys work on the dynamics around work and really kind of, yeah, tapping into each other's genius. And I'm gonna send you some information on the drama triangle. And maybe we'll do a different session

on the drama triangle. I wrote a blog about it. Maybe I'll do an episode about it. And if you need to or want to, we can even do a session about it. You guys are gonna get Conscious Loving by Gay and Katie Hendricks as your book club. project try that especially if the other not that the other book by terry real is bad but if it's

really intense you know that's not gonna work well for getting the work done yeah just yeah i guess every single time we learn a lot but we also feel uh a little connected connected more and like you're listening i appreciate it all right guys we'll talk soon i appreciate you thank you I went to the doctor Said I'm crazy for your love Wrote me a prescription