Language of Love with Dr. Laura Berman - Why Do We Keep Having the Same Fight?

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

Did you know that most arguments in relationships aren’t really about what they seem? That fight about the trash? The dishes? Being late? It’s rarely about the actual issue—it’s about something deeper. Feeling unheard. Feeling unappreciated. Feeling disconnected. In this Language of Love Session, we continue to follow Brian and Stacey as they navigate the challenges of trust, intimacy, and emotional connection. Brian feels like he’s doing everything right—planning dates, showing affection, making an effort—yet the intimacy still isn’t there. Stacey, meanwhile, struggles with past trauma and the weight of expectation, making it hard for her to fully engage. We confront the hidden emotions and unspoken fears that keep them stuck in the same frustrating cycle. What’s inside this episode? How past traumas influence trust and intimacy in relationships Why taking sex off the table can help rebuild emotional and physical connection The importance of non-sexual touch in fostering intimacy and trust How to navigate the "Drama Triangle" (victim, villain, hero) in conflicts Practical strategies for shifting out of conflict and into connection The role of appreciation and physical affection in healing relationships How to create a culture of safety and understanding in your partnership Don't forget—love is a journey best taken together. Whether you're healing from past traumas, deepening intimacy, or improving communication, every step forward is one you don’t have to take alone. Explore powerful tools like EMDR and the Drama Triangle for trauma recovery, or dive into transformative resources like Conscious Loving by Gay and Katie Hendricks. Want to go even deeper? Read my book Quantum Love. You can even check out my Quantum Sex Course. Have questions or stories to share? Email me at [e-mail], and don’t forget to share this episode—because love is a journey we take together. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey, I'm sex, love, and relationship therapist, Dr. Laura Berman, and for the last 30 years, I've been helping people learn to love and be loved better. Welcome to the Language of Love Sessions. This is where I get to work with you one-on-one, on air. You, my listeners, my goal in these sessions is to empower you to enjoy better relationships, both with others and with yourself and to help you embrace how precious and sacred your body, your love life, and your sexuality really is.

It's time we all become fluent in the language of love. What's so-so? So we had sex, okay? Okay. We've had some arguments and it's almost embarrassing that they're just over such mundane things. And it's like we're two children that are stuck and we don't know how to communicate better i don't know it's just the

most dumbest things that we argue about and if you tell somebody else exactly the situation that has occurred each of those times like if somebody else was relaying that same message to me i would think oh my god these two are children okay that's exactly what i know it feels that way and okay maybe objectively and we'll get more into it in a second maybe objectively it feels childish and like we should be able to navigate but honestly arguments are almost never I mean sometimes they are but just this is me making up an approximate number like 75 percent of the time we're arguing we're not really arguing about the type arguing we're arguing because we're feeling disrespected or we're not feeling heard or we're feeling like our views aren't valued or we're

feeling like we're not connected or it's not really about the topic. Yeah, absolutely. But we're going to get into it because the topic is the entry point into the larger issue. But before we do that, you just kind of threw out there, which technically you weren't supposed to be doing, but that's okay because it was also, we left it that it was, we opened it up for that, right? So we didn't say absolutely not. We said that if you felt like you wanted to and that piece was really important then so Stacy when you wanted to and really felt in integrity in your body weren't disassociating then it was okay so was that the situation when you had sex yes but there's still some kinks to work out it's not as perfect as I wanted to be and obviously I know it's nothing's

going to ever be perfect but what I visualize in my mind where I'm actually completely engaged I mean it's a work in progress I know yeah I'm getting over the part where it's my choice not as using it as leverage but using it as if I don't feel engaged or if I don't feel connected then I don't want to just for the sake of doing it and I don't feel bad anymore about it no you should not And more importantly, what I would like the orientation to be, that there is zero expectation of sex. Technically, I would prefer you not even have sex at this point. But if for some weird reason, an unexpected reason, Stacey is feeling it, I'm not going to say no. Right.

That's the way that I look at it. Right. But I don't think Brian views it that way. i think brian views it as i'm doing this power trip thing and it's almost like if he buys me flowers or takes me out and he actually pays 100 attention and you know buys me the things i've always wanted and that whole afternoon is about me then it's almost like there's an expectation of look i did all of this i paid attention i did this i did that and so why we're not having sex i mean there's no expectation but i thought i did everything so it almost leaves me

stuck where did you check that out with him is that true brian that you felt that way what she's talking about she voiced it but is that how you felt this week no so initially when we were talking about the date that topic came up i don't know why or how it came up and i explained to him listen i just hope you know that when you take me out and when we go out and you're connecting with me it just doesn't take one episode of going out to make things click it doesn't if for some reason i felt great and i decided to then great i want to go based on what i feel not based on being compelled to do it so i think he wasn't really 100 on board with that but then he got it he understood like no i don't expect anything even though he may be feeling like

And this is such a good example of why I like to take sex off the table, right? Because if sex were off the table completely, you would be having these amazing dates and these amazing connections and everything else. And there would be no question of an expectation. And you would have the wiggle room to just like really be present with what is and in the connection with what is. and you are not, sex is off the table, right? Right. So I'm going to just ask you again, should we take sex off the table for a while or do you feel like you're navigating this piece? I'm not asking you this. It sounds like you did great when you did have sex.

It's not because of that. I'm talking about this other piece. I think that it's kind of a really tricky thing because like you had mentioned before, men like to feel appreciated in certain ways. right? And that physical touch is one of them. So I feel like if that's off the table and I feel deep down inside, it should be off the table because like you said, it's going to help bring to more connection. That's a trauma response. What you're describing is literally

sexual pressure without your consent, which is the opposite. Even though he's not doing this, this is inside your own mind, right? And I get what you're saying. I don't want him to feel distant from me. I know he needs physical connection to cultivate that feeling of love and I love him and I want him to feel that love for me. So I have to do this. Now in a regular relationship where there is an active trauma reaction, I might encourage a woman to be like, yeah, you'd rather be watching the latest episode of nobody wants this, right? But go ahead and have sex because it's so important to him. And because once you get started, you really enjoy it. And because of the benefits it reaps in the relationship, but when there's been trauma

and a trauma cycle that you guys have been in, even what you're describing, and I'm not saying this is on you, Brian, this is on her, you know, inside her own mind. I think it's really important not to get caught in that trap. And there are so many ways that you can, in fact, it may open the door for you to engage with him more physically, not sexually, but in cuddles, holding his hand, giving him a long hug, giving him a kiss. You could be feeding his physical touch need and making him feel seen and loved in those ways with the understanding that like this still too complicated. Yeah. And I think that I have a problem with because one, it's really hard for me to do those things without me thinking you know there's an expectation after

and not only that it's like they're triggers all of those things that you mentioned they're all triggers for me so it's very hard for me to go past that it's almost I expect him to do that and I won't do that I'll do that the odd time when I feel I actually feel that love and so I'm trying to give him a kiss or something yeah but that's the only time I want you to do it is when you feel. But it's very rare. Yeah. It's very, very rare. So is there, of those things, hand-holding, hugging, kissing, cuddling, is there a continuum or is there some that are easier for you than others? Yeah. Hand-holding is fine. Okay. The kissing and cuddling is a bit hard. Okay. And especially the long kissing. Yeah. Well, I'm not talking about long kissing.

I'm talking about packing. Yeah. I'm talking about like a kiss and a hug or holding his hand or lying next to him when you're watching something on a show or watching the kids play or whatever that you're just kind of shoulder to shoulder. Maybe your head is on his shoulder chest. Like, yeah, we, we did do that one time when we were watching a show, but I also want to say that it's not just always in my head because sometimes Brian actually displays that I can feel it in his coldness or like when he says things in a joking manner about no sexember November no sexember or he'll say things like that where I feel as though this is not easy for me and you're jabbing at it as though it's something that I can just switch on and off.

And I don't like that. I feel very hurt by that. So I think that makes me even more enraged to the point where now, maybe you should see this as a power leverage, even though I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to go with what I feel instead of pushing how I feel aside, right?

Yeah, well, so we can talk about that, but I just wanna, and I totally get and agree with everything you're saying. So I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying this as an, and not a, but right. This is not easy for him. He's a sexual person who misses sex with his wife and you are his only sexual outlet. So that is not to make you feel guilty or bad, or like you should be doing anything different than you're doing now. But I think we have to create a little bit of grace for him.

Mm hmm. Now, if he's being an ass to you or he's being like rude or snarky or short or impatient, not understanding around this, then we need to talk about it. If he's making the little passive aggressive joke or whatever, like I get that you're sensitive about it and maybe he could be a little bit more careful. But I also just want to encourage you to give him some grace because this is not easy terrain to navigate. He's not in charge of his own sex life. He doesn't have a say in it right now. You're in charge. It's hard on all parties, right? Like, I think it's like I can I can totally feel where Stacey's coming from.

Like, I feel on all the different layers. i still married her to marry her and not anybody else i have relation with her like with kindness and love and care and support and everything of course i'm part of that i think she's beautiful and of course i want to kiss her and make love for nobody else it's tough to be patient but i need to exercise that a little bit better and not be passive aggressive or condescending comments like if i could do that i'll definitely try my best even more because it's not that fair either No, I think that's great. And I think that's a worthy goal. And I love that you're acknowledging that. And I also just want to say this is hard, not easy. And so you got to give each other some wiggle room in this. And so I think part of the reason, Stacey, that you're feeling really extra prickly about his comments is one, because someone with a sexual trauma history, especially like yours, is going to feel any unwanted sexual pressure as a trauma trigger.

Right. But also because there's a part of you that isn't fully giving yourself permission. so when he makes these comments you then feel guilty and that's on you because we make ourselves feel guilty you have both agreed to this you have been prescribed this by me so there is nothing to feel the guilt is also a trauma reaction you know what i mean it's like this expectation so his little comments would not sting so much if you didn't already feel like he's speaking the truth correct right so i think both of you need to embrace this more that makes sense yeah it makes sense okay so no sex we almost had sex three times last week we did and there was a third time that that i i said no

it's not a good idea because i think we're slightly rushed i felt like there's gonna be some kind of repercussions afterwards of something so yeah and i even said i i would not, like, don't take it personal. I just don't think it's a good idea. I don't want to feel like I'm in another place. No, never. Anytime. And even if you're in the, I would say don't have sex, but if you ever find yourself in a situation like that and you notice all of a sudden, then it'll take you a minute to notice. Cause when you first disassociate, you don't say, Oh, I am now disassociated. You realize after a bit, like, holy shit, I'm not here anymore. Right. And when you do that saying really gently, like, Oh, I just like, can we just take a minute, pull out, just sit

there for a minute, like ground yourself again. And then you may need to potentially only in the short term, this isn't a permanent thing, but this is part of rebuilding is stop. Right. So let me just explain to you. And I feel like I, we did this in the really, in the very beginning, kind of, we alluded to it, but let me explain to you how this would normally work and how I want this to work, but you guys have been kind of making up your own rules through this. And I get it because we're not seeing each other once a week and we're just like winging this and we're on a show. So it's not like you're coming to my office once a week, but what I would normally do with a couple like you, in addition to all the other pieces of the puzzle that we're working on

from a sexual standpoint, sex is off the table. We're slowly discovering and building in And just like we just did with this conversation, handholding and a little bit of cuddling and addressing my feelings of guilt over not having sex and all of that. But then once you kind of really sort of mastered that, then we would move toward non-demand, non-sexual touching. So maybe at first, especially with trauma victims, we would do it with your clothes on and then slow. And maybe it would just be and it would be avoiding the breasts and genitals at first. It would just be like a gentle touch or a massage or whatever, maybe for two minutes, if that's all you could tolerate, maybe for 10 minutes. And you would take turns touching each other and it would go nowhere.

And then you would move on and then you would move on and we would slowly add in more things. And some of them may remain forever completely off limits. Like, let's say many of the perpetrators who abused you had beards, right? Maybe I know Brian has a beard right now. I'm just making this up. I'm not saying this is true, but maybe you wouldn't want to have sex with him when he has a beard, right? Or maybe there are certain positions or certain acts that just really need to be off the table

for the indefinite future because they really are major trauma triggers. but the rest is about building trust and communication and you slowly builds back in. So you start with non-sexual touch. Then you start moving into a little bit of a sensual touch, but still avoiding like major sexual touch. Then once you kind of get comfortable with that and you've communicated through that, then you move into more explicit sensual touch. Then you move into maybe a genital or breast drive-by, you know, right. So you slowly work your way up and along the way, you'll be like, whoa, like this really brought up a lot of feelings and I left the building and I, okay, so let's pull back for a minute. Let's see what would have made it feel

better. What would have made it feel safer? What could we do? So that's kind of how it goes. How do we work through that? How do we start at that part there? Like if we're saying sex off by not having freaking sex that's how you start so it's hand holding is it is it appointment based we set time aside to cuddle to be like like i can't hold her hand all the time yeah i can always hold her hand all the time yeah yeah i mean i think at this stage what we want is to create the safety and trust that we can be intimate we can be loving we can be trusting and we can be compassionate with each other and connected to each other without having sex, that it's okay not to have sex. It's never

been okay for her not to have sex. It has never been okay. So she has never been in her power sexually. And that's what we want to change for this to work the way you both want it to, right? So it starts by establishing the trust, maybe for a couple of weeks, maybe for a month, that this is cool. Like we can hold hands, we can kiss a little bit, we can put my head on his shoulder, just like really simple, but loving, gentle, platonic-y kind of physical affection. But with really loving energy, like when you're holding his hand, really imagining sending love from your heart through your hand into his hand and up into his heart, like really intentionally finding ways to casually but also intentionally integrate some physical affection that doesn't

feel threatening or triggering while not having sex and proving to both of yourselves that we are okay yeah of course we want sex and we wanted to get to that point but like no pressure there hasn't been the experience of no pressure yet right and then once you do that then we're like okay where are we what would feel because she's going to be once that's happened for two weeks to a month and there's real security there and there's connection i'm not saying you don't ever argue or there aren't some obviously shit happens it's not like everything has to be perfect but as she gains confidence in you brian that you really are cool with this i don't mean for the rest of your life but you're cool with whatever it is that it's about her

and her healing and the two of you healing together and not only you but Stacy is cool like I'm okay not doing this I'm okay not feeling guilty I'm okay this is okay right when she's gonna be in a different emotional space with you after a couple of weeks to a month of that And then when I ask the question, what else might you be willing to do? She may have a very different answer than she has now. She may not. And then we'll work with that. But she may.

I find often people do. Because while this is happening, she's actually healing a little bit. Does that make sense? Yeah. Do you have any questions about that or confusions? No. Oh, sounded like. you were kind of apprehensive. No, I'm a hundred percent. I feel good. I feel confident.

What about you, Stacey? No, I like it, but I, I'm almost a little afraid that it's a long process and I'm afraid that like, what if I don't get on that path? You're going to get on it. You're going to get on it. That's just you having a trauma reaction. Right. And also you're giving voice to his fear, which I appreciate. But just the fact that you have that fear is enough. Just from my experience, you're going to be able to do this. But even just that statement further cements that you're going to be able to do this because you want it. And if you want it, you'll get there. Yeah. I believe I have the right to it. Right. So, so if you want it and then you're going to have it, you're going to get there, but it's about doing it with integrity and presence

and power and intention, right? Each step of the way, not perfectly every time, right? But moving really consistently in that direction. Make sense? Yeah. Okay. So you, Stacey, have as much work in some ways to do as Brian does inside yourself around the expectations and the frustrations and the guilt. And in some ways, Brian, that should make you feel good because, or at least optimistic, because it means that even beyond some of this is about the trauma, her sense of obligation or fear of losing you or whatever. But a lot of it is because she too wants a beautiful sexual relationship with you. And a lot of victims don't. A lot of victims will say to me, you know what? I would be perfectly fine. Like never do. I don't ever want to do this again in my life.

And even they get to a point where they want to, but she's not saying that. I think that's what I used to think. Yeah. Well, good. So you've already made a little progress. yeah so we're starting off strong now what about these silly arguments I don't know it's almost like the arguments have a very regular set of things happen it's either power leverage or or it's a tit-for-tat thing and then it becomes victimization thing. And that's always what it is. And I don't know how to, like, I know I'm not perfect. I strive to be perfect, even though I know that's delusional. Yes. I have to strive for something. Right. So I don't expect everybody to be perfect, even though sometimes my delivery comes off like

that. I strive you to make an effort. Okay. So let's just tell me quickly an example of the latest thing you thought about? Okay. So I know that I cannot handle drinking as much as Brian and I only started drinking 30 at 33 and I'm 47 and it's taken me a bit to kind of allow the, the alcohol to let my inhibitions go. And I need that because otherwise I get really uptight. And then I, I worry about different things when I just want to have fun. I just want to be, be, and it's hard for me to do that because then I go into, oh, what about this? And what does this person do? You mean when you're in social situations? Yes. Yes. And so yesterday I had some drinks at home. I had a couple of glasses of wine at home, a glass and a half. And then we went

out and Brian had found some money on the ground and he gave it to the waitress and she said okay what do you want in return for that it was the waitress's money yes it was the waitress's money but he said no I don't want anything to drink because I have to drive and then I said well give it to me I'm here with these women like let's do this and he goes no no you can't handle it you can't have any more so that made me feel as though I can say that yeah I didn't need to say that. And he was willing to give that extra drink to somebody else when what about me? I don't go out. I don't go out unless I'm with you because I don't do that. Well, so what was your fear, Brian, if she had that other drink? My fear was that if Stacey had additional drinks,

she would feel terrible the next day. She'd be sleeping or like being sick, being thrown up. i would have to change her bowl and get her tissues and you know then that next morning i would lose sleep and i have to get up really early for work so i didn't want that to happen i didn't want her to be in a terrible state and to be lose half of her day like it's a busy season it's christmas and it's the holidays we've got so much stuff to do so also i needed like help with her probably preparing like my food and such for the day for me to go as i'm at appointments throughout the whole day too so all that stuff was kind of coming to my head and i know when she has x amount of drinks because i already knew that she had a drink at home so i knew if she was going to

have more it would have been a bad state right and i it's not like we could stay up and watch a movie or anything either like i had to go to bed i have to get up at five in the morning so i couldn't take care of part of what was wrong in this situation and i get why both of you felt the way you did is that the expectations weren't made clear like this is the kind of thing we're going out we both have to get up early tomorrow we're going out tonight for this person's birthday like what are we going to do how do we want to handle because under normal circumstances what I would say to you Brian is like okay so she's hung over and puking let her hang over get be hungover and puke, let her face the consequences. But what I hear you saying is that the consequences

affect the whole family system. There was a lot going on. And so, yeah, I can see how that would feel controlling to you, Stacey, and your power was being taken away. But I also think that there's something to be said around... I used to drink a lot too. I don't drink at all anymore, but I used to have this thing where I didn't drink often, but when I had a couple of drinks, once I get started, you're not going to stop me. I'm just having fun and I'm not thinking. I just want the fun to continue. And I'm not thinking, oh shit, if I have this next drink, that's going to tip me over the edge because I'm not thinking. I'm drunk or tipsy or whatever. And I can appreciate that. But if he had brought that up to me aside or disgusted, like you said, but the thing is

I didn't get sick the night of, it was only the next day when I woke up that I felt a terrible migraine and my eyes were sensitive to the light. That didn't mean I was sick. No, but were you able to do all the things you both needed to do? And I could have, I could have, but I just chose not to because I do things every single day. And if I take a day off, I can't apparently. Yeah. Well, so you feel like this was him controlling so that you could take care of him? Yes, because he didn't take care of me.

He thinks that he takes care of me, but he doesn't. I take care of myself. And then there's this larger issue of needing to drink to lubricate yourself socially. Yeah. That's a whole other can of beans. But either way, people drink. so this is about the two of you it sounds like this is an example and this is what probably one of many of the two of you not being and feeling like allies yes be not getting clear on the

expectations like when i go to a party with my husband now i've learned through the years that he's going to want to leave before i do even when we're not drinking he can only tolerate so much i'll be the last one to leave so like we talk about it beforehand i'm probably going to want to stay longer than you. How do you want to handle that? Do you want to Uber home? Do you want me to like how, you know, we set the expectations beforehand because we know, you know, where the problems are going to come up. Right. So in your case, all right, I'm planning on drinking tonight. I know we have an early morning and then he says, well, we have an early morning tomorrow. How are we going to handle? Well, you know what? I just really feel like letting loose tonight. So can

you take over tomorrow right because you divide and conquer and you've already told me that your role stacy is to do those things so that would be the equivalent of him getting wasted and not going to work the next day true maybe we should clarify the objections or the night we should see but then i said because it's his birthday like i made the gentleman a gift which meant we don't have to buy anybody drinks. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that's another thing. Are we going to spend money? How are we going to spend money? Right. Like really getting these expectations clear. And also for you, it's the social lubrication for through drinking for Brian. It's the social lubrication through people pleasing. Ah, yes. Okay. So those are just

two areas that we want to pay attention to and explore more. All right. I'm going to show you this picture. Let's see if we can see it. Can you see this triangle? On one point of the triangle is victim. Yeah. On another point of the triangle is villain. Another point of the triangle is hero. Can you draw that on a piece of paper in front of you? Do you have a piece of paper? Oh, we have a board, but yeah. Okay. Whatever you have. All right. Make the triangle with victim. You can make it at any point, but on my piece of paper, victim is at the top. villain is at the bottom right and hero is at the bottom left yeah not that okay so this is called the drama triangle and this is where every couple gets stuck communication wise anytime you are in

one of these roles you are in what's called persona you are not yourself okay so there is zero chance of effectively resolving a conflict in a healthy way when on the triangle. And then we're going to talk about this, and I'm going to tell you how to get off the triangle, which

full disclosure, is next to impossible to do when you're drunk. Okay. But we're going to talk about what to do to get off and what to do when there's no way you're going to get off. Okay. So let's go back over the scenario last night. The money falls on the floor. Brian gives the money to the waitress and she says, what can I do for you?

And the waitress says, what can I get for you? And he says, I don't want to drink. And you say, Stacy, well, I want the drink. And then Brian says, no, no, no, you don't need any more to drink. Okay. So what roles are you in when Brian says, no, no, no, you don't need any more to drink. I'm the villain because I'm stopping her from partying. You're the villain. And by the way, you can have a foot in more than one place at once. Okay. And by the way, you can't have a villain without a victim. You can't have a hero without a victim. You can't have a hero without a These roles need two people to play, okay? So I would say, Brian, you had one foot in villain

from the quote unquote. So the villain sort of points the finger of blame, right? So the villain says, you know what? You can't handle your alcohol and you have shit to do tomorrow. And I already know you're not gonna be able to get that shit done. And then our day is gonna be ruined

and I'm stressed and you're gonna make it worse, okay? That's what the villain says. the hero says, I'm worried about you. You're not going to feel good. And I love you. And it hurts me when you're hurting and I can't do anything to stop. So I'm going to save you from yourself. Okay. Can you see how you had a foot in both? I had both. Yeah. I thought, I thought I had both. Yeah. And, and Stacy, you're the victim. Yeah. And the villain. And the villain. Good girl. Right. Because you're judging him and pointing the finger of blame. And you're also not. I'm also saying I want to drink. Don't tell me what to do. I want it.

The victim says, I'm at the effect of you. That's what the victim says. Right. Or I need saving one or the other. I can't do it myself or I'm helpless. Right. But that's what the victim says. I'm at the effect of you, or I can't do this by myself. I need you to rescue me, or I need you to be different because I can't do it myself. Right. I'm at the effect. So when you're on the triangle, nothing is going to get resolved.

And you are what's called in persona. Personas are coats we wear. Right. So the villain and hero and victim are personas. they're coats we put on. And we all do that. I have a persona, we have a million personas. I have a persona when I'm going and I'm on stage in front of 5,000 people, I put on a persona of like she who knows what the fuck she's saying, right? And it's not at all nervous about how she's going to be received and whatever. You know, I have this, I call her my hot shit persona, right?

I have this like, I'm here, I got this, no problem, right? While there's another part of me that's like, holy shit, but like I put on that coat consciously. When you, Brian, go to train someone, you probably have a trainer persona. That's maybe a little different than you are when you're hanging out, being a dork with your kids, right? When, so there's our authentic self, which the two of you live with each other a lot of the time in your authentic selves. And there are these personas. And so when you go to work out with someone, you're intentionally unconsciously, but intentionally putting on the trainer persona. Yeah. Right. So what we want is that. We want personas that we put the coat on. The coat doesn't put itself

on us. When you're on the triangle, the coat is putting itself on us. We are not intentionally or consciously at all putting on the coat. And anytime you are in these personas, it's like trying to resolve an argument with someone on the triangle or with two people on the triangle is like trying to resolve an argument with someone who is insane, not that you're insane, but it's the same thing, right? You are not, they are not in the building. They are in their story. They're in their persona. Okay. And anytime you are in one of these personas, you are not an integrity. You're not in your authenticity and you're not going to be able to resolve a conflict. Right. I've accomplished a lot in life, but most of all, being a mom of

these three. When I lost Sammy, grief cracked me open in ways I never imagined. And yet with support and healing, I've transformed in beautiful and unexpected ways. Now I'm sharing everything I've learned with you and the grief healing collective. None of us were meant to do this alone join me not only in healing but stepping into the beautiful metamorphosis that grief when we're supported can offer us so how do you get off the persona how do you get off the triangle there are several ways should we write it sure let's talk about when you can't get off the first okay because this night we're talking about was one of those times where you weren't it's not even worth trying

right one of you is inebriated or under the influence you ain't getting off the triangle right no one is going to talk sense into you anyone like they're drunk okay so let's talk first about what to do when you can't or sometimes someone is just completely unwilling like if they're really activated in anger or in your case stacy there's probably times where you're really in your trauma reaction, you're not going to easily get, you know, so in those cases, we table. We do not keep trying to resolve a conflict with someone who is on the triangle. Now, in some relationships, and this is rarely the case because most people, when they're on the triangle, are really in their ego, right, some way, is to say, listen, I think we're on

the triangle right now. Let's table this. Usually that a person's going to say, F you, you know, you're on the triangle. So what I recommend saying is just like, look, we're stuck right now. I love you. We're going to work through this, but let's just table this right now. If there's drinking involved and you're drunk or under the influence of something, you say, let's table this until tomorrow if you're sober but you're stuck yeah you say let's just table this for a few hours okay but you always come back to it now if a few hours later you're going to be inundated with kids and family whatever obviously you make an appointment you say let's let's revisit this tomorrow when the kids are out at 10 a.m right like you make an appointment yeah you kind of

set that up but you table it okay that's when it's impossible to get off the triangle or one of you is just clearly, or both of you are just clearly stuck. You can table it. You don't have to always resolve everything, but you do always want to come back to it. Okay. Make sense so far? You're both with me? Yeah. Okay. Now, how do you try to get off it? Well, the first shift move is you have to do something to shake yourself off of it, right? Now, calling each other to consciousness can sometimes work in really evolved relationships or relationships who have really been working together on this. So my husband and I are sort of at that point, sometimes between you and me, I have to say, you know what? I feel like I'm really stuck on the triangle right now.

Really stuck. So I think we should table this for a while. But usually, because he's so on the triangle, like he wouldn't even hear me. But usually you can just say, I think we're on the triangle right now. Like, let's shift out of this. But that's not now. So that's not going to happen okay that's neither one of you are going to be cool with that right now so what you do the first thing and this is a really easy one but really fun one is these are called shift moves one is to get silly okay so let's say what's another example where you're where you weren't neither of you was under the influence when we're not under the influence yeah like an argument remember you said something about the um driving direction somewhere or being late for something

yes being late okay and then one of who's on what role in that situation for instance okay so i'm probably in the role of victim and villain because i'm saying listen you want to be on time somewhere it's me getting everything ready and you're just saying all right i'm out the door let's go. How about asking for help or asking me if I need the help? Why is it you get to go and I'm doing everything to pick up the pieces? All right. So you're also in hero because I'm so yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So you're maybe hero villain, not really victim. I think you're playing twister. You know that game. I think you got one foot in hero, one foot in villain, one foot in victim and what is brian and brian is in villain because he's evil not helping you get ready but

also victim but he's also victim because in his mind he's like why the hell is she being so tough on me right yeah why is she always making me late i'm always late because of her yeah okay and then hero too because i'm like look how many clients i just trained before we're about to leave like i just i just packed in four clients before no no that's still victim because look at what i did you're not appreciating me. Right. The hero is I'm going to save you. Right. I'm going to take care of everything. I'll get everything ready instead of you. Yes. Or you can't handle your alcohol, so I'll handle it. Right. That's what the hero says. So in that case, one of you recognizes if you're just stuck in an argument, that's when one or both of you need to say to yourself, OK,

where am I on the triangle? What's happening? Like if you're stuck, guaranteed you're on the triangle. And then you say, okay, how can I get off? Here's one way is that you get silly and you amplify the persona. So I'll give you an example from my life. I had this persona when my kids were young, I was responsible for the homework and I would be so hard on them. I had this thing about, they were slack asses and they were trying hard. And it like became this thing where like homework was this huge battle. And my husband would get into hero and villain mode, like save my children from me and divide us and make me look like even more of an asshole and whatever else. And so I realized, okay, I have this persona that I, you name them. Okay. I have a homework

Nazi persona. I was a homework Nazi. And as soon as I would notice, or in one, we got to the point where my husband would touch his nose and be like, you know, that was our sign. Like homework Nazi is here. And it's not like I could just stop and be like, okay, because I'm in the persona, right? So how do I get myself to stop? I would start marching around. You will do your math homework right now or you will get seven beatings. And I would just like start, the world will come to an end and it will be World War IV if you do not do your homework right now you know and I would start like being silly about it and it would shift me right and it would also shift my husband out of hero mode and the kids would start laughing and it would

diffuse right so in your case maybe you start being like oh I don't know like I think I need one more coat of mascara before yeah I don't know like and maybe that one who's always doing this the last minute is last minute Lori or whatever. Yeah. I think I have to poop, you know, or whatever. Like you just start being silly about it. And Brian, who's like, let's go. Right. I'm Nazi. He's a Nazi or a timetable, like a train engineer, like all aboard. We are leaving at all 200 hours and I will not wait another second or whatever. Start playing with it. Okay. it immediately diffuses it another is to start talking with your hand you cannot stay mad at each other if you're having an argument making your hand into a puppet so i used to do this with

my kids when because they would get stuck on the triangle with each other our kids get stuck with siblings really get on the triangle with each other and they'd be like mommy he thought you know he spat on me and he wouldn't let me i'd be like oh tell him with your hand and then the next thing you know they're like peeing in their pants laughing because you can't stay mad at each other right but so those are if you're not really really mad but you're noticing you're it's getting that way if you're mad and you want to shift it's hard to shift to humor sometimes you can but usually you have to be a little more conscious first you start moving your body. So you start shaking yourself off or moving, doing something called creative joint play where

you move. I used to do this. Like I was doing a live radio show five days a week and things would like really stress me out or something really upsetting what's happening. My mom was terminally ill. There was lots going on and I needed to like get on the air, be present, be off the triangle, be an integrity. So they got used to seeing me in the control room. Like you look like a crazy person, but you're moving every joint in your body and moves like Jagger moves like Jagger. And it moves everything out. Okay. So these are physical ways to shift off the triangle emotionally is to Nate is to use this kind of system of communication, which I think I've mentioned to you guys before, where you say what your story is, what feelings the story

is creating in you and what you want. This was in the chapter that I just finished reading and told Brian, this is what we need to do. And we're at that point. And it actually helped us in that moment for whatever we were going through that day. He actually saw differently what I was asking of and why I did what I did. And he understood differently. Yes. That made a lot of sense because what you're doing and we'll talk about exactly what to do in a second is that you're not, you're not on the triangle. You're not saying you're not pointing the blame. You're not making each other wrong. You're not making yourself the victim. You're not, you're not making anything up and nobody can argue with what your story is. You aren't saying you're only doing

this because you need to control me, right? You're saying, I have a story that you don't trust me to handle my alcohol or I have a story that your needs are more important to you than mine are and that you didn't really care about my needs. So when I have that story, right, I feel and you really focus as much or more on your physical symptoms, right? You can say, I feel angry or I feel sad, but you don't say like, I feel disgusted with you. Right. You say, I feel angry and sad. And I feel like my nauseous and my belly, I feel tightness in my chest. I feel pain in my back. Right. I care when I hold that story about you, this is what I feel. Right. So the story I'm telling myself is this. And I, when I have that story, I feel this and this is what I want. And

So that's why you have to do a little thinking before you have this conversation, because you have to think like, what is it that you actually want? What proactively do you want? Yeah. So I understand when you're saying you can't do this when you're drunk, you have to table this because it requires some thought to come up with something like that. Right. Yeah.

Also, it requires like conscious attention. Right. So in that book, Conscious Loving, there are lots of shift moves for getting off the drama the triangle beyond even what I've told you. And you can find more in there. But the main thing is to, you are never, ever, ever. So even if you aren't tabling it until tomorrow or a couple of hours from now, just table it for 15 minutes while you talk with your hand, shake yourself out or go for a walk around the neighborhood and like shift. You have to shift in order to get off the triangle. Now, eventually it becomes more automatic where you can be like, look, there I go.

Let me just like, what am I doing? Okay. That's not, you know, I'm on the triangle. That's not me off. Right. But that takes practice and body and mind memory to get to that point. I think anytime we are in a really deep heated argument, it never fails. Typically, if I go out and I leave the house, whether it's for a walk or a drive, I almost always I would think like at least 90 percent of the time where I will come back and be like, OK, what's going on here?

Like, I do feel better after leaving the situation and trying to get conscious about it and be like, OK, what's happening? She hates it when I leave. Well, because it depends on the abandonment issues, right? It's abandonment issues, but it's also how you leave. Right. So this is about being allies. Always, always allies, even when you're pissed to shit for each other. Right. So it's OK if you if he really needs to leave Stacey in order to shift and he's so stuck on the triangle that he's not going to get off the triangle unless he takes a walk, which, by the way, I'm the same.

It's important to say to her, look, I love you. We're coming back to this, but I just need to take some space. I'm coming back. And that's fair. That's right. I'm coming back for me when my husband does that. like for, and I'm not saying this is true for you because we got the touch thing, but I'm like, you need to hug me. Like I need a physical touch before you go to like anchor that. Cause I have abandonment issues too. Right. So whatever it is, you can, you can create those norms with each other where you're now superseding her trauma reaction by saying, look, I we're going to resolve this. I'm really angry right now. I'm on the triangle. We're going to resolve, or maybe you're not willing to say you're on the triangle. I'm just really angry right now. We're going to

resolve this i love you but i gotta get out of here right and i'm coming back yeah i might make her feel more reassured i think that makes sense yeah so these are things you can try but the most important thing is i think the places that everyone gets stuck and you guys are getting stuck is that they stay and stay and stay on the triangle and think they're going to resolve an argument on the triangle and then it happens. Okay. Yes. I like this. All right. So you have lots of things to play with here. You're not going to have sex. Yeah. We're going to really come on. Brian is much more cool with this right now than you are Stacey, but Are you both on board with that?

Yeah. Yeah, I am. A hundred percent. Okay. And you're going to look and Stacey, I want you to look too. This is going to be your challenging homework. I want you to look for ways to reach out. Even if you're just putting your arm around his back and giving him a squeeze from the

side, it doesn't have to be, I'm not talking about make-out sessions or genital and genital hugs. I'm talking about just physical affection of touch points. Right. Looking for ways to communicate. And when you do touch each other, just energy can really be felt whether we're aware of it or not. So really communicating love through touch, not the way you're touching, just energetically having loving thoughts and feelings and imagining love pouring out of your energy, out of your heart, into your hand and into his hand and up into his heart, things like that really make a difference. And so it's not the same as sensual

touch and sex and whatever else, but it is a way to sustain the physical connection and start building a tolerance for physical affection while you stay in your body that we're going to build on later. Okay. All right. And then we'll talk to each other in a couple of weeks and we'll see how you do. Thanks, doctor. Thank you so much. All right. Much love. Keep us posted. Until the doctor said I'm crazy for your love Wrote me a prescription But there's no cure for crying