Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang - “Interested People Make Interesting People” (w/ Katie Couric)

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

There’s not much to say beyond Katie Couric being the guest this week. The sisters get into conversation with the Las Culturistas Culture Award nominee for Best Asker and try a hand at being askers themselves, specifically about Katie’s new book “Going There” (available now) and swamp ass. Stay tuned for three wide-ranging IDTSHs, including Ms. Couric’s diatribe against a certain filler word. Truths are examined, conflicts resume, and culture is made in this hour and thirty minutes in change. Be interesting by being interested, jester flops. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are back. I love that. I love that. Oh my gosh. Welcome. And last season's drama was just the tip of the iceberg. You're recording us? I am disgusted.

Never in a million years after everything we've been through did I think that you would reach out to our sworn enemy. We were friends. How could you do this to me? I don't trust her. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City, Wednesdays at 9 on Bravo, or stream it on City TV+. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me?

A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology, Swaps of different meds. but by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Joe Gatto. I'm Steve Byrne. We are two cool moms. We certainly are. And guess where we could find us now oh I don't know

the iHeart Podcast Network that's right we're an official iHeart Podcast and I'm super excited about it I am too I thought 2 Cool Moms

was such a fun podcast but now it's even more funner and cooler and heartier that's right it's more iHeartier I knew it

check your heart rate we're here at iHeart yeah you can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts It's more iHeartier. I knew it. Check your heart rate. We're here at iHeart. Yeah, you can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts or on the iHeart Radio app. Hey there. I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything, that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans,

I talk to people about navigating these moments. Their stories are full of candor and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts look man oh i see wow look over there wow is that culture yes ding dong las culturistas calling and we've got the champs out what is just celebrating over here what's in that little flute oh the moe honey the moe a tiny moe that i was gifted i don't know from whom i can't remember can't recall but it's here for good occasions and i believe this is one of them this is absolutely an occasion to break out the moe but it's dangerous for you to really not be able to trace it back to the source you're right it could be from one of my enemies it could be

it could be what and then what? I don't think you have very many enemies, Matt Rogers. You know what's weird? I was thinking about this the other day. Because I'm reading this book that our guest wrote. The undercurrents of it are like, you know, wanting to be likable, like working in a position

where you have to sort of have a degree of likability. And I was like, I wonder if people truly like me. Oh my goodness. I was like, I wonder if people truly like, oh, my goodness, I was actually, I this kind of ran through my head. This is an impossible question to answer. And then I get to the end of the book and sort of the author of said book, and our guest today sort of arrives at the same conclusion. And I sort of breathed a sigh of recognition, relief, at all, at all, at all. Oh, at all, at all at all that's usually latin to refer to people but i think in this case we've got jared saying yes yes you just have to acknowledge jared keller is in the chat is in the zoom and i think he's going to chime in every now and then with some

with some commentary and we welcome that i hope so hope so. He's already a character in the episode. He's a character in the episode. We've introduced him into the world. Matt, I'm so excited about our guest. This is actually... Do you remember when we started this podcast? And pretty much for the past five years, we've kept it going. And it's always been sort of like, you know, our little stupid baby.

And now all of a sudden yeah yeah yeah because i don't think we have another stupid baby unless no no um so all of a sudden sort of here we are and our guest is on and i gotta break out the moe and say not for nothing but what the hell what the hell what the hell she's first and foremost a lost culturistas culture award nominee i actually was gonna say this is her greatest achievement that she gets nominated in the category of best asker best asker i think she really i feel like she's the front runner especially after coming on the show i mean can you imagine if she would be snubbed at the last second that would just be cruel that would be

very cruel she just crossed her fingers and she's got other she's got other achievements under her belt i'd say i would say so i mean is it an exercise in not futility but in sort of communicating what people already know if we run through the credits or should we just you know david you know letterman it and you know what they say yeah i say letterman says my guest my next guest truly needs no introduction and i feel like this is like the epitome of that but that being said for for our readers that might be living under a rock to just throw another expression out there i think this is the wrap it up she's giving us the wrap it up it's just shut up but keep going it's actually you know it's yeah it's universal it's on it's on brand shut up shut up and keep going this is her let's just say um i don't it's truly surreal because i think

that outside of my parents growing up this is the person i saw the most in my home every single day we were a today show household were you guys at today show household we were a today show household absolutely everything was 30 rock at my house it was still to this day i know i know look at you company man yeah whatever you know i am i worship at the altar of one erstwhile ahead of nbc mr jeff sucker who is a really a good character in this book. Great character in this book. I was loving every- Shakespearean. Shakespearean. And I mean, we'll get into it. There's a lot that happens just in the book. I

mean, can we talk about this? Let's just say about the book, there's a lot that happens. When was the last time you tore through a 500 pager? Okay, I'll tell you honestly, the day before I read this book, I read this book, Not All Diamonds and Rosé, which is an oral history of the Real Housewives franchise. So that was, it was merely 12 or 14 hours before I tore through this 500 plus pager that I got through this. Yes, 500 plus pager, also a page turner. I wouldn't say not as much of an achievement as going there by our guest, but a, nonetheless, that I endorse.

I think this is the ideal reading experience for me because I'm clutching the galley in my hand. It's a 500 pager. The average page count per chapter. Oh, well, no, I'll say the number of chapters. Love this about it. 99 chapters. So do the math that you're averaging out about five pages per chapter. And let me tell you

tastes authors take note. Literally. I was like, they all need to be like this. Well, this is someone who knows how people consume information and how to tell stories and how to tell stories. And I think she's done it with a plum and a lawn. I want to talk to her. Well, let's talk to her. Before we get going, please check her out. If you're in New York, Boston, Dallasashville atlanta los angeles san francisco please check her out on her going there book tour she's got wonderful special guests and truly span all industries and types of people it really is unmissable wherever you live in different creeds colors nationality shape sizes all different kinds of people guest on this book guest on this book tour she was rehearsing for it this morning and we're so excited to have her so everyone please welcome into your

ears katie kirk craziness hi guys i'm so excited thank you very much for having me you've just lowered my demographic by about 30 years so i really appreciate it that's what it is we're just a tool to you aren't we you are basically mad i'm using you for your following no i'm really excited to be here it's our honor and pleasure honestly like when we felt we heard that you wanted to do this we were like oh my god and then i really in in reading the book it's just so good like really congratulations on it oh thank you did you both in reading the book, it's just so good. Like, really, congratulations on it. Oh, thank you. Did you both really read the book?

Yes. Wow. Page after page. Thank you. First of all, thank you so much for reading it, because that's a commitment. And I worked really hard on it over three years. And I think it shows all the research I had to do because I have a good memory, but not that good. So I just want to say thank you. I'm really grateful that you took the time to read it.

And I can't wait to hear what you thought or what questions you have or what it made you think about because it is a lot. I mean, it's very expansive, and it covers a lot of different things. And I think it's kind of sneaks in a lot of issues that I think people might be surprised to read about. I don't think they know they're reading about issues per se. But they, I think through my 40 year career, 40-year career or whatever in my 64-year-old life, it spans a lot of big societal changes and kind of, it's perfect for the culturistas because it really talks about culture, right? Yeah, 100%. Can you immediately tell in doing press for this, which people have read the book and which people haven't? Yes, of course. Well, sometimes it also depends on the venue. You know, some of these interviews just don't allow you to kind of talk about anything in depth. I really enjoyed doing

an interview with Terry Gross the other day from Fresh Air. I felt like Terry read it and was really interested in all the things that I was interested in when I was writing it. Instead of kind of the garbage, tabloidy, stupid stuff that has been completely distorted, blown out of proportion, and willfully misrepresents what this book is all about. It's been very strange, honestly. I've been really pissed off about it for you. Is it? Well, having read the book. Yes.

But prior to that, having possibly seen some of the junk that's been put out there, were you like, wait, what? And were you expecting the book to be very different, given some of the crap that's been circulating? No, considering the sources of the trash, it was very like, I will take this with the biggest rock of salt. You know, like, I mean, if the Post is writing about it. When I saw New York Post, I was like, oh, they're using the word misogynist to describe Katie Couric. That's the most hilarious thing I've ever heard in my life tell me more just kidding tell me nothing it was just

but what i've been really sort of disappointed by is like i was watching as i want to do i was watching watch what happens live the other night and they they made the gross mistake, I think in programming and just in general of having Megan McCain and se. Oh, my God. And they had them on on a Wednesday night, first of all, which is Beverly Hills night. And it's like, why don't we have Kyle Richards? It's like, there's a lot of eyes on it. So of course, they get the spot. I don't know why. But he asked them about your book. And se turns to Megan and goes well we both hate it and you can tell megan says we both hate it and she just kind of says like why would you tear down other women like etc etc and i'm just like they're just having this like this discussion that says to me obviously

they have not read the book because had megan mccain read the book she out of all people would have so would would recognize that you guys have so much in common because of the loss that you guys have both experienced because of what you've had to go through. So that all she can sit there and say is, well, I think it's pathetic that she trashed other women. I'm like, that's not how we are. After reading the book, it just really disappointed me even more because it's it's that's just not the point. Well, it's so clear. And stop holding up the Real Housewives book, Matt, when you talk about my book. I'm throwing it across the room.

But I think it's so clear that they haven't read the book. And it's honestly kind of weird and irresponsible and really creepy for them to make these big pronouncements when they haven't read the book. And they're taking bits and pieces from, well, doesn't Meghan McCain work for the Daily Mail now? I don't know what she does anymore. I think she does. Yeah, she works for the Daily Mail, which, you know, it's just sort of crazy.

It's grossly irresponsible of them. And listen, I'd be happy to have them talk about the book if they read the book and understood the totality of it. But I think they're trying to be in my draft a little bit. Yeah. You know, some people, I think, are trying to get attention by talking about my book if they are just thirsty in general. Yeah. in general yeah it's so strange that you of all people would not be inured to all of the weird fucking stuff that like people will start to manufacture around like you as a person and in terms of you in your output like this is this is something that's happened to you your whole career i would say you mean in terms of just just people like really projecting stuff on you.

I think it's so funny. It's so ironic and not in a good way that my prologue talked about trying to write a book that showed my multi dimensionality, if you will, that people sort of put women particularly in this box. And yet it's sort of happening again. I talk all about, you know, I think one of my favorite chapters was the Booking Wars. I loved that one. I mean, didn't that sound like a made-for-TV series, right? Yeah.

And I think that I had so much fun writing it. Some of the stuff is very cheeky. You know, my sense of humor, I hope, comes through. And I laugh about the booking war. And I laugh about the booking wars. And I laugh about kind of them pitting women against each other. And of course, you know, we were the ones that were expected to secure the big gets. But I also talk about how women are portrayed in the press of, you know, these catfights is just catnip for the press. And here

you go, it's very meta, seeing this actually play out by people who haven't even read the book. You know, the big thing I, first of all, I don't trash any women. Hello. You certainly did not. You know, and the only thing I said, which I think was incredibly self-aware, and any of these people in these professions would admit that once in a while, I felt territorial about my turf, right? And there are turf wars all the time. There were then, there are now that go on in television i know that but i don't think anyone wants to admit that oh yeah sometimes they feel insecure

and territorial and i'm like yeah i feel that i felt that way sometimes why i'm admitting it i'm calling myself out on it so like fuck off yeah right it seems it seems like it's it's like um if a man had written and not to be like when it's a man and like and like you know repeat some like talking head but it really feels like if a man had written this book and like owned up to a lot of this stuff and was willing to talk about and engage in a lot of this stuff people would be like it's nice to hear it like discussed in this way. And what a thoughtful recollection on the times. And with you, it seems like it's this bizarre thing

where even women in media are like, well, I didn't know she was a meme girl, which came out of Sonny Hostin's mouth the other day on The View. I was like, are you kidding me? Wow, maybe I shouldn't do that show. Well, there you'll tell you something. They keep talking about how excited they are to have you, but they are. You're certainly quite a topic on Hot Topics.

And do you think they've read the book? Because I that's the thing. I don't know. I don't I don't think I should go. I don't think I should talk about this book to people who haven't read it. That seems sensible. Yeah. It really does. Because it will only be misunderstood. Only. I mean, because this is, this is, I mean, I'm, okay, I'm holding up the spine of this.

This is, this is tome thickness. Okay. I'm saying this is like, this is a, this is a big, long, nuanced and detailed book. And she's thick. She's meaty. She's thick. She's filled with it there's no way that people are gonna be able to distill this down to like especially on a television show there's no way that they're gonna like really nail what you're trying to say and it's it is

interesting what matt just said like there is no way that any well no i think this is your point in the bookinging Wars chapter, right? Like, the men were not, the men thought that the booking stuff was beneath them because they had the luxury of thinking that. Meanwhile, all of the sort of logistical emotional labor of getting these interviews was placed on specific teams, gendered in a specific way. And then, if any male newscaster were to write this book, I don't know that this book would exist because I don't think these men are doing the soul searching that like we demand women in media to go through.

Well, I think we're asking everyone to do it. I think I hate to say that many of these men sort of aren't in touch. Listen, this is a very different kind of book. You know, a lot of journalists say, oh, these are the stories I covered. This was something that happened. And not to go all Bette Midler on beaches on you guys, but it is very deep. I mean, it is like digging deep into a lot of things. It's asking myself questions, asking societal questions, you know, kind of trying to come to terms with my family history, trying to help my daughters understand my late husband, their dad's passion for the Civil War in the 90s and how it doesn't square. And, you know, people are so black and white, good, bad. And someone sent me a quote by a guy who the director of Gray Gardens and it's tyranny is the deliberate removal of nuance. And I thought that that rang really true for me because no one can seem to have these conversations in any kind of sophisticated or intelligent way. They have to, it's so reductive and so sort of extreme one way or another. And that's why it disappoints me, but makes me feel sad for people who can't actually have a nuanced conversation or appreciate nuance.

I think it's a real, it's a sad commentary on our current culture. And we're being very serious here, boys. But what I think is like, also, it's like, journalists know that way that news is consumed. And so it doesn't encourage them to look for nuance either it almost feels like when you watch some of these shows when they have five minutes maybe to discuss a given topic it's like a race to the black and white you know what i mean it's sort of like a let me convince you how i'm correct and why this is this thing that I'm saying is the correct talking point. And it is very sort of, you know, there's no time for the gray area. There's no time for the exploration because people

I think they think and maybe they're right. People get bored. I think we're so used to and I've used this a lot, but this engagement through enragement, you know, I think it's this intersection of psychology and technology that we're seeing play out in the modern media landscape. You know, I think it's this intersection of psychology and technology that we're seeing play out in the modern media landscape. You know, you've got to get a rise. I mean, this is not a big new newsflash or anything, but that's, you know, this is how the machine keeps churning, right? This is how the rabbit hole keeps being followed down. And I think all these kind of things that hit you emotionally, those are the things that keep you engaged and keep you on these platforms or keep you watching this almost this rage porn in a weird way. This fall on Bravo. rage, rage porn gets a happier life. Salt Lake City. We don't wear pastels, we wear fashion.

And below deck sailing. You broke the rules and now you're here getting upset. Watch all new seasons on Bravo or stream it on City TV+. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK and this is basket case so i basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown i was crying and i was inconsolable it was just very big sudden swaps of different meds what is wrong wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health

is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This week, Charlamagne Tha God sits down with Vice President Kamala Harris for a conversation you don't want to miss. The things that we want and are prepared to fight for a conversation you don't want to miss. The things that we want and are prepared to fight for won't happen if we're not active and if we don't participate. They tackle the big questions, politics, policy, and what's next for the country. Doesn't the Biden administration have to take some blame for the border, though? Charlemagne, first thing we dropped was a bill to fix the broken immigration system, which, by the way, Trump did not fix when he was president. Don't miss this in-depth interview with Charlemagne Tha God and Vice President Kamala Harris, only on The Breakfast Club.

Catch the full interview now on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. It's Matt Rogers. Back when I was a server, I was one bad day away from a huge personal crisis. Thankfully, Giving Kitchen is here to serve those that serve us. Giving Kitchen is a nonprofit helping any food service worker who gets hurt, gets sick, loses a family member or their housing. That's giving relief. So when you or someone you know is in crisis, tell them to ask for help from Giving Kitchen by visiting givingkitchen.org.

That's givingkitchen.org. Together, we are Giving Kitchen. We help food service workers. But meanwhile, you come from this school of journalism where, you say this in the book, you didn't ever want to expose any sort of partisan leaning or skew in your line of questioning. I think that is your style. That is the Katie Couric style. I feel like you would never get some ideological thing from your point of view out too much, even if it was interviewing Sarah Palin or even if it was interviewing George George Bush. more on the progressive side, you know, when I would ask the governor of Wyoming about conversion therapy and the kind of, you know, environment that creates for people who are gay or, you know,

questions along those lines. When I really challenged David Duke about comments he's made about, you know, Jews belong in the ash bin of society or whatever he said. I think by virtue of just being a working woman, you know, I think there are some assumptions or some assumptions might have been made about me. But I have tried or I did try throughout most of my career to really be down the middle and to challenge both sides. But then, of course, the Trump administration, I think, ushered in this new era of, you know, it's become hackneyed to say it's not left-right, it's right-wrong.

But I do think it's come to this. And so it would be very hard to be the kind of journalist that I was in this current day and age, you know? Sure. I think with what you were saying earlier about this emotionality to news, I think that's what you were doing on the Today show. I'm jumping around a little bit, but I feel like on Today, the reason why you helped make it the number one daytime news show is that people were emotionally connected to like the like america's first family yeah i write about that you know that was a little exaggerated i think to create these parasocial relationships that viewers have with people they don't even know

right um you know i think we all had a good relationship, but I think that they exploited that as well in terms of how they wanted to promote the show. I think people gravitated toward me early on because I was a different animal. I wasn't kind of the prototypical news anchor. I looked a little different. I acted a little different. I was a little more unpolished. And I think people gravitated to that authenticity a little bit at the beginning. And I think I was pretty comfortable showing different aspects of my personality. I wasn't particularly buttoned up. I like to have fun or do say something funny or cheeky. And then I could do really serious things as well. But, you know, it's hard to remember, but back in 1991, I was a whole

different kettle of fish in terms of what people would expect in a female anchor person lady whatever yes yes yes it's kind of interesting to see that now the number one daytime personality is probably kelly clarkson who like like everyone in america fell in love with and it's like she we remember that and so she's like nostalgic but also current um and she's really not a journalist at all she's a singer well i feel like well that's more of a a talk show like that is a very different different format yeah then then the today show which they had to go interview dr jill biden though i mean like sometimes i'm surprised how much the crossover there is especially as we see donald trump become president.

You know what I mean? It almost feels like all these things that had different boxes a long time ago. Those boxes are sort of like all now turned over on the floor and everything's kind of mixing. And I think I think you're right, though. I think Kelly is is sort of very comfortable in her own skin. She kind of is who she is. She doesn't put on airs and i think people appreciate that yeah you know it's um in reading the book like i i just i think i read about 15

times over the sentence swamp ass and i just i was just like thank god now you've arrived at the time where you can finally discuss the moments where you had swamp ass like the vomiting my daughter ellie used that expression once when she called me she was working in a writer's room and they made her go to like five different restaurants for their lunches and it was 104 or something in the valley and she called me like one wanted sushi one wanted barbecue one wanted um what's that place uh that that um it's a chain and uh in Taifung I don't know Mendocino Farms no it's it's in it's in Santa Monica you guys know what I'm talking about I always forget the name huh what kind of food is like American cuisine it's like all kinds of you know um chili no it's kind of food is like American cuisine? It's like all kinds of, you know. Chilies.

No, it's kind of like an upscale chilies. Something, something. Ruby Tuesdays. Not Ruby Tuesdays. It's like that. It's Fridays? TGI Fridays? No, not TGI Fridays.

Applebee's? It's on Santa Monica. Sweaters. No, keep guessing, you guys. It's like, and i think they have like cheese oh cheesecake factory cheesecake factory that's why i'm they i walk in there and everyone actually bows down i'm the prince of cheesecake factory okay sorry anyway one guy wanted to go to cheesecase factory and he's always like, I want more bread.

Anyway, she would call me and she would be like, Mom, it is 104 in the valley. I've gone to like, you know, 12 different restaurants for these dudes. Yeah. And I have the worst case of swamp ass. Swamp ass. I was like, that is so funny. I've got to use that at some point. And ergo, Matt, swamp ass.

Swamp ass is in the book. It makes an appearance. You talk about squeezing your breast milk across a room. You're vomiting after being in an F-16. Like, it goes there. And I wonder, like, 10 years ago, 20 years. No. We love it.

I was thinking about it, you guys. I was thinking about, I wrote a book as if I was with like really fun, smart people sitting in a room drinking wine and I was telling my story. Good. That's what we want when we pick up the book.

I mean, it doesn't feel editorialized at all. No, because this is the takeaway. And I think this is probably is the takeaway and i think this is probably explaining the reaction a little bit is that it's so it's it's much more honest than i expected katie i'm like it's funny like we were just rattling off jokes like hard jokes in the book like i i think i think you are taking a, like, this whole image that you've cultivated your whole career. And I feel like that's intentional. Is that fair to say?

Well, first of all, I don't think I cultivated an image. Okay. I mean, no, no, no. And I'm not, like, smacking you down or whatever. What do you call it? I'm going to later. A clap back. No, no no no but i i i you know listen i think the

point of the book is yeah like we all are so much more than the image people right people um project upon us or even the image that we project and i just am you, I have a lot of different sides. So I don't think I automatically destroyed the image, Bowen. I think I just tried to expand who I was and let people kind of get to know me on a much deeper level, a much more expansive level. And I mean, like I really let people in. I let them in about, you know, what was happening at the worst moment of my life when my husband was diagnosed with cancer.

And in really a lot of detail. Yeah. I am very honest about, like, how hard it was for me to be at CBS and what I believe was a hostile work environment that I walked into. And our purposes were not aligned in any way. And I was sort of brought in there to do something that only Les Moonves apparently wanted me to do. sister and my parents and, you know, great moments of accomplishment that I'm really proud of and moments that like I sucked at and what that was like, like what it really felt like inside to go through it all. And so I feel like I didn't want to change the image people had. I just wanted them to get to know me better. Yeah. Was there any difficulty process-wise in terms of putting it down on paper,

really reconceptualizing all these difficult memories into this memoir form? Not really. difficult memories into this like memoir form not really you know it was really it was really helpful actually you know i think everybody has delayed grief you know and i think writing about jay you know first of all it was really fun to write about how we met yeah i love that you're a top by the way does anyone ever told you you're a kitty kirk's the top what's that mean well so in in gay sexual relations there's always that would mean yeah and there's a bottom you are a top i would say you you know what you want and you go for it and you go for it and i'm very assertive

and i'm very intentional yeah that's top behavior okay all right well good thank you you can tell people that you can tell people that all right that'll be for my next book going there again or going there again she's going there again yeah um so that was me going there and telling you that yeah thank you thank you um i i. I knew kind of, I know, never mind. I don't want to. You have to. No, I knew the concept. I just didn't know the personality traits necessarily that went with the concept.

They don't always. But all of a sudden, I was reading the book and I'm like, I texted Bo and'm like you know like she is really i was like i think i was surprised by like you really and i don't know why i was surprised about it but like your um sexuality really comes through in the book well you know what my cousin this is funny you guys my cousin henry he lives in birmingham alabama he he's a lawyer. I love him. He has the deepest, like, serious Southern accent. And I said, Henry, I was talking to him because he, my mom was his cousin. And I was talking to them about my mom's Jewishness and Judaism and sort of kind of trying to understand that period of time why my mom was not, well, maybe secretive, but also just also just just it didn't seem to to be a big

part of her life obviously it was not a point of pride right well i don't know you know he said but it's interesting matt he said we were never ashamed but it just wasn't a huge part of our identity they were german jews they came over in the 1850s, I believe, and settled in the South. They were in the retail business. And I said, Henry, why do you think my mom didn't talk more about that? Or why didn't she? He said, well, we were never, you know, we were super reformed. We were citizens first and Jews second. And he said this was a time when really people wanted to assimilate. At least he said that's what he was saying. I'd like to read more and learn more about that. But that, again, was another interesting aspect of the book.

And I think about my mom, which she like, my parents have both died. And I've been wondering, gosh, would my parents be proud of this book? They would. They would. Absolutely, they would. Yes, because you come across as such a dynamic, intelligent, like accomplished person.

And I think that that probably come, your questioning of that when after i asked the sexuality question probably comes from again this thing of like us it's like a conservative thing that comes from somewhere else that's not within us because what what's within you is your sexuality and is all the parts of who you are and i that's what i appreciate but that's what i appreciate about the book so much is that all the parts of who you are and that's what i appreciate but that's what i appreciate about the book so much is that all the parts of who you are come through in it because i actually think our society would be a lot more forgiving and accepting if we all would be honest about all parts of ourselves if we could i forgot to tell you what i why i brought up henry my cousin i he

he read the book and he goes katie g mi no you've seen more sex than a policeman's flashlight that's birmingham for you i was like henry isn't that funny i guess when they're looking in cars when when people are parking right that's that was in cars i'd never i'd never heard that expression it made me laugh that is a good one i just love that um the epilogue was just this letter from your father three years after i think jay's passing um wasn't it so i mean my dad was a beautiful writer i think you could tell in that letter um you know i love the use of the word rectitude in that letter um that that letter. You know, I love the use of the word rectitude in that letter. That letter always makes me cry because it was so beautiful. And I think it encapsulates how loving and present and there

my parents were for me my entire life. And I feel so blessed. And, you know, I really did write this for my daughters, you guys, first and foremost. You know, when I wrote it, I was like, some people might be interested in this. I don't know if that many people, some people who might have watched me on the Today Show may be interested in this. But I had no idea it was going to be considered that provocative. I was really surprised by that. I mean, it was provocative because it was distorted. But I've been surprised at the level of intense feeling about it. And I'm really interested when people like you guys actually read the book. I'm kind of waiting to see how those people feel about it. Because I didn't write it for these tabloid reporters who are trying to get clicks. I wrote it for thoughtful

people who are kind of interested in pulling the curtain away from the news business, and who are just want to kind of think about where we are as a society, and some of the changes that have happened over the last several decades. I mean, I feel like structurally, you do something really incredible in this book in terms of balancing out the Katie Couric career story and all the ups and downs. But then I think you also just really, and then I think you do uphold these consistent pillars of like dating, grief, death, cultural changes. And then I think it's pretty incredible that you end the book on Carrie finding out about her father's, you know, just a civil war, just his relationship with just a specific time. You know, I'm very proud to say my daughters are both very intelligent and wonderful. I mean, such fine people, first of all.

But Carrie really explored this and really went deep when she was at Stanford. And she did a lot of original research in Montgomery. She really kind of found out about our family tree. She interviewed the ancestors of slaves, the descendants of slaves, rather, in Eufaula, Alabama, where some of my dad's family settled early on when they came from France. And she is really extremely intellectual. And she wrote this very beautiful thesis. She won a big award for it at Stanford.

I was so proud of her. I was inspired by her work to talk about that. And to, you know, Bryan Stevenson is one of my personal heroes. And I don't know, you guys have to have him. He started the Equal Justice Initiative. You probably know him. He wrote Just Mercy. He is this just incredible, incredible civil rights lawyer who I could listen to him all day. But anyway, when I did that hour for National Geographic on Confederate statues and iconography, he talked a lot about the importance of confronting and acknowledging the past and how countries like Germany and Rwanda are so much better off because they have admitted their mistakes.

They have looked at the past and they want to make sure it doesn't happen again. They want to acknowledge it because without that, you can't really move forward. And so I was really, you know, that's something I could have kept out. It's mortifying. It's, you know, hugely embarrassing. Some of my family tree, as I say, was blighted with racists. You know, some of the things even someone as close as my paternal grandmother did. But I got a lot of courage from Carrie's thesis and from her curiosity and enthusiasm, not enthusiasm, curiosity and interest in really understanding the past and squaring. Jay was an incredible person.

And, you know, she is actually very forgiving that he was kind of into Civil War reenacting because there was this resurgence of interest in the Civil War with Ken Burns series, Glory, Confederates in the Attics in the 90s. And I think he just thought riding horses he loved military history um he just i think thought it was a fun pastime to be with people from all different walks of life and you know as i say in the book he never got to really, you know, think about more deeply about sort of what that symbolized. And it was actually, as you guys know, a much more recent recognition of all of this lost cause narrative and all of kind of the Civil War mythology that has had such a hold on our country for so long. And that happened, you know, probably in a very palpable way, 15 years after Jay died, at least.

The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are back. I love that. Oh, my gosh. Welcome. And last season's drama was just the tip of the iceberg. You're recording us? I am disgusted. Never in a million years after everything we've been through did I think that you would reach out to our sworn enemy.

We were friends. How could you do this to me? I don't trust her. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Wednesdays at 9 on Bravo or stream it on City TV+. I felt too seen. Dragged. I'm NK and this is Basket Case.

So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in.

Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week, Charlemagne Tha God sits down with Vice President Kamala Harris for a conversation you don't want to miss. Listen, I feel very strongly I need to earn every vote,

which is why I'm here having this candid conversation with you and your listeners. They tackle the big questions, politics, policy, and what's next for the country. I am running to be president for everybody, but I'm clear-eyed about the history and the disparities that exist for specific communities, and I'm not going to shy away from that. Don't miss this in-depth interview with Charlemagne Tha God and Vice President Kamala Harris, only on The Breakfast Club. Catch the full interview now on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. It's Matt Rogers. Back when I was a server, I was one bad day away from a huge personal crisis.

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That's givingkitchen.org slash H-E-L-P. Together, we are Giving Kitchen. We help food service workers. I feel like another theme in the book is this thing that you just mentioned, which is squaring people against things that they've done, interests that they've had, squaring that against the people that you know them to be, whether it's Jay, whether it's your father, whether it's, I mean, I guess your mother in that way, in terms of like the Judaism of it all.

And then absolutely with Matt Lauer, the way you kind of sprinkle that from the beginning of the book, and then it all comes to a head in the end. And I just, I feel like you must have come to some conclusion about like how people are. What do you think your conclusion on that is? I think I learned, you guys, that people are complicated. They are the products of their conditioning, their cultural conditioning, their environment, sort of the thinking of the time.

But they're also, you know, we're all trying to figure it out. Yeah. And, you know, I'm really interested in understanding what makes someone the way they are. Yeah. You know, I'm less interested in judging someone. I'm interested in what happened to them or what created this thing that made them do what they did.

I obviously can say how I feel and can criticize someone's behavior if it hurts other people. But I think I could have been a good psychologist because I really try to get to the root of what someone's doing in their behavior. But I guess it's that people are complicated and that they're not all good or all bad. I think I even write about that. I think in some cases it's more extreme than others, this duality that exists. But that's sort of what I would say to answer that question. Do you, by any chance, watch The Morning the morning show i actually do i'm friendly with

juliana margulies oh yeah she's a huge part of the second season yeah and i actually started watching it a few months ago and then i stopped because i had a lot going on and i just picked it up again and i think it's really interesting and and i think they do what they do really well is every character like has their stuff right you know whether chip feels like he shouldn't be back there or uh i guess it's daniel feels so marginalized and and frustrated and clearly the the reese character i forget her name what's bradley jackson bradley jackson unforgettable she's like you know rough around the edges and trying to figure it out and navigate her sexuality now yeah yeah and um and and jennifer aniston is just you know trying to hold up this facade.

I mean, they're all just kind of trying to figure it out. And I think they reveal their own sort of psychic wounds. And I find that really interesting. But that has to be a little surreal to watch from your perspective, because the and this is where I guess my question lies is the first season sort of rolls out a situation that really closely mirrors, if not directly based on the Matt Lauer firing and everything that went on with that. So so then we have Jennifer Aniston essentially playing a stand-in for you or like an avatar for you or savannah or whoever sits next to him in that chair so when you watch that is it clear is it clear to you and then does it become fun for you because you're like oh this is just purely fiction like i am i'm laughing while i'm drinking my glass of wine watching this or does

any part of it make you cringe a little bit no i don't think it makes me cringe because i think i think i i was gone in 2006 and i think a lot of these issues and you know it's interesting because i do write a lot in the book about i thought that was kind of powerful that dinner i had before with with matt before this happened right and um he seems nervous and likes like he has like yeah yeah yeah you know the circumstances are so so different and i believe in the show i guess i get the impression that they actually were involved in some way uh sexually involved right the jennifer aniston character they're now they're now sort of uh but even in the first season they kind of alluded to that it was unclear whether or not she was using that

whether it was true or not against him to maintain power at the show and now it's sort of coming out in the second season that probably it did happen several times but it always is a gray area like as we've said right right right so obviously they take a lot of artistic license um but um you know i thought i thought they were actually very good at getting some totally getting some things right this this you know when he comes to i guess it was a party celebrating his anniversary or something or a birthday party that he came in the studio. And you could see he was like beloved. he sort of lured people in a pretty obviously gross and inappropriate way. So, I mean, I find it interesting. And I think with the second season, they're dealing with so many issues

that I didn't really deal with when I was at the Today Show. Issues that are very of the moment, you know, issues about diversity and the Stella character saying, you know, I'm window dressing, basically. And I think a lot of these issues that workplaces all over the country are kind of grappling with, right? Representation and all that. And I find, I think that's really interesting. Yeah. Well, I just, I had to ask if you watched it,

because I feel like if it were, in reading the book, I felt in you describing yourself throughout, I was like, wow, I'm really similar. I felt very similar to you in a lot of ways. And so then I was thinking like, when I asked you that question, I didn't know if you'd be like, no, I'm really similar. I felt very similar to you in a lot of ways. And so then I was thinking, like when I asked you that question, I didn't know if you'd be like, no, I don't watch it because I know if there was show that purported to be about something,

I was like, if it was like dressing up as something I had done, I would have to watch it. Yeah. You know, I've heard, I think Jennifer Aniston has said she's sort of models her character after Diane Sawyer. Makes sense. I think Jennifer Aniston has said she sort of models her character after Diane Sawyer. Makes sense.

I think. Makes a lot of sense. I don't know. It seems to be an amalgam, though. I was going to say, I think it's an amalgam. I do. Or amalgam. How do you say that?

Amalgam. Amalgam. What's amalgamation? I know, but when do you use amalgamation and when do you use amalgam? Amalgam. I think it's amalgamation. I know, but it is, when do you use amalgamation and when do you use amalgam? I think it's that, I think it's amalgam in this case. An amalgamation of,

of something, and then. I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question. I'm going to look that up when we're done. I love words.

An amalgamation implies like an action, like the act of amalgamating. Yeah. And so, I feel like we can use amalgam here and i just mispronounced it no i think no i think a lot of people miss misuse amalgamation when they when amalgam is is is just

fine it's just the asian certainly i would be the person misusing it so that's that feels right we want to ask you what we ask every single one of our guests which is sort of the big question of lost culture which is katie couric what was the culture that made you say culture was for you what was the culture that wait so they didn't so jared you're supposed to run through this with katie okay i know you mentioned it but i i think i misunderstood so here's here's what it is briefed so so yeah sure So here's what it is. I was briefed. Yeah, sure. So here's what it is. It's the culture that made you say, culture is for me.

Like when you're growing up and you see something in pop culture, in film, television, music, it could be a surroundings thing, just the culture around you that you grew up in, were raised in. What made you become the person that you are? I mean, of course course it's many different things you know the answer to this is it jane polly no no no earlier come on i'm really doing a test if you read this book we read the book i just want you to say it come on I'll marry Tyler Moore genius take a nothing day

and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile yes you girl and you should know it with each little step and every movement you show it we only know the melody we only know the melody here and every movement you show it. Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

We only know the melody. We only know the melody here. Love is all around. No need to fake it. You can have the world. Why don't you take it? You're going to make it after all. You're going to make it after all.

Iconic hat toss. Matt, you have a nice little voice there. Well, thank you. So do you likewise. We should take it on the road. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. And also sort of surreal how you were able to execute that. What?

Like in terms of your career path. Well, you know, I think, and as I write, Mary Richard just made people my age. You know, remember, fellas, I'm 64, born in 1957. And, you know, women were just miraculously really entering the workforce. Right. Like my generation, give or take, you know, years older and obviously years younger, but in very significant numbers. And I had a real switch with the feminist movement and women's lib, as they called it back then in the 70s, and Mary Tyler Moore, where it was like, oh, wait, everybody in my neighborhood's a stay-at-home mom as housewife. Everybody I see on TV is pretty much a housewife. Samantha Stevens on Bewitched and shows like that.

And then suddenly, I do remember watching Julia with Diane Carroll, who played a single mom. And that was cool. But Mary Tylerler moore it was like yeah like she got in her car and she's driving to minneapolis she's a single woman she didn't get married right out of college which a lot of women older than i were doing my my sisters and i was like damn i i want to do that right and isn't it meaningful that I think the first scene in the pilot episode is her looking at an apartment, at the apartment that she moves into, just as this single working gal, just here to look at the place. That's not necessarily a housewife setting environment situation, you know?

Right, right. I was thinking there were other shows like that i remember like room 222 with karen valentine and i remember she was a teacher and uh you know it's funny how much television at least i think because i must have watched too much of it but it's funny how it really shapes who you can be and what the possibilities are and i think and moves the culture so um the representation yeah but even more than that i feel like and this is why you must understand how important you are is that television i think helps us shape the way we understand things sorry to use understand twice in the same sentence, but I feel like you were able to give clarity to things.

I mean, you still do, but like from the beginning, it was this thing of like, well, I understand what's going on because of the way that it's being sort of communicated to me through this daytime show, evening show, syndicated talk show, whatever.

Well, you know, you have to kind of apply your own sensibilities and your own, you, you, you're a vessel really, right? You're information in, information out, and that gets processed and distilled and synthesized by, by you and obviously a lot of other people in the news organization. So that's a big, huge responsibility. And you don't always get it right. You try. You try to have the values that you hope are worthy of aspiring to, right? Yeah.

And you try to do the best you can and to reflect. But you know, I talk a lot about how, how that prism was sometimes clouded, right? You know, the way we covered Rodney King, right? That that the way you know, the way I raised that kind of missing white woman syndrome in the book before this whole Gabby Petito conversation started about why is it so much coverage and what about so many other young women who disappear, who never, ever get really mentioned in the news media. So I'm very, I think, I'm pretty self-critical of sort of when my prism could have been sharper and where the whole business, I think, the business, the prism of the whole business could have been sharper. Well, I think you're being critical prism of the whole business could have been sharper. Well, I think you're being critical of the system. Yes. While also being very honest and self-critical about your positioning in that system.

Right. Which is, and then it gets really weird and nuanced to think about the individual versus the collective sort of, you know, way of thinking about it. And I feel like you more than a lot of people, actual soul searching that I will say the men don't do specifically the way that Matt Lauer weeks later came back saying all of these relationships are consensual just didn't feed didn't seem like he was remorseful at all about the accusations. I mean, and that he thinks of you as someone who betrayed him. And it's very telling. Yeah, the way that he responded to you as someone who betrayed him and it's very telling yeah the way that he responded to all of it i just think um in this conversation there is a lot of i'll say nuance to be like

brought into in terms of thinking about like the way everyone at these shows are positioned to like i don't know like really not be not be sure of what their resources are if if you know i think you ask like yourself and curry reported an incident to management because someone had approached her a staffer had approached her with this and then you ask yourself i wonder why no one came to me and i even asked addy know, I asked her and I said, would you have ever come to me? And I think part of the pathology was this sort of secret, the secret nature of these relationships that was actually used to silence and manipulate people. And that was interesting, too. Yeah.

There's shame built in. Yeah, shame. Yeah. For her to come to you would be just, would mean her fully confronting that shame in some way to go to you as his co-anchor. I mean, I don't know. It's very interesting.

I just wanted to return to the Mary Tyler Moore thing for a second. Yes, I'm sorry. You must have met her many times i did did you get to tell her that this was true um in terms of her impact on you yes she must have had so many women saying that but probably extra meaningful to hear it come from you oh listen i felt very very dwarfed in her presence. I mean, she's, talk about a complicated person. You know, again, I think her son committed suicide. She, you know, I think she was just so much more layered. Yeah.

And really, really interesting. I didn't know her well well but just from everything i read and you it's very easy to become an archetype you know especially on television yeah right as you talk about very very easy to become an archetype and and she would certainly understand that the last time i saw her she was quite ill and quite frail. And it made me really sad. But there was something about her that was just so winsome and appealing and charming and fun to watch. But yes, I shared with her many times. And then, you know, I was thinking about it because as I was preparing for my tour, we did kind of this greatest hits reel of people.

And it's just amazing the people I've met. I mean, that to me, like for the ultimate extrovert who's very curious about the world and truly enjoys people. Like how lucky I am. Yeah, that's really. I've had this job you know I was looking like I you know Barbara Streisand fixed my hair like she fixed hubbles in the way we were wow I got to I got to talk to you know Betty White we went to the Central Park Zoo together yeah I mean the list goes on and on and on and you know just to be able to meet them and have fun with them and get to know them

a little bit you know never i don't i don't really hang out with celebrities that's not that's not my jam but to to really to i mean i have a few few well-known friends but you know to just to be able to be kind of talking to these people. To be in that situation. Yeah, so fun. And so, you know. I can't believe Michael Jackson asked you out. I can't believe that either. Well, he kind of did.

He did it through an intermediary, Rabbi Shmuley. That was his way. Rabbi Shmuley asked you as a proxy for people who have yet to read the book. It's out now by the release of this episode. But, I mean, Rabbi Shmuley, Neil Simon, all of this. Larry King? Come on now.

I mean, they're varying degrees of mortifying, though. Well, absolutely. And I also love that you just spilled the tea about it, too. I love that you called John Kasick a tool like you really called these men exactly what they are he's an asshole you can see right through him i think john casick is probably a pretty nice guy but you've got to admit what he did was very

toolish toolish he asked you the same question twice he was trying to make you feel small and bad and that's not a good guy that's right and please you can see right through him and then what and with the whole 2016 of it all where it was sort of just him and trump because he was the last one if you remember he was like sort of the last one that was not him um involved in running for the for the gop nomination like you could kind of see like it was so clearly it was almost like dude just it's good they're going with trump like get the fuck out of the way and then when he came back i was like oh god i think governor casick had had a hard time reading social cues there you go that's how i would put it

that's yeah that's a very diplomatic way of putting it. Yeah, that's a good one. After calling him a tool, I feel like you don't need to be too diplomatic with him. Yeah, you're probably right. You're probably right. This is something I wanted to ask you, though, because a couple times I was reading the book and there are sentences like that and little...

They're all about the man, we should say. Right. Yes, thank you. Thank you, Bowen. Well, yes. That seems not to be that interesting to people, little, um, but they're all about the man, we should say. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Bowen. Well, yes. That seems not to be that interesting to people though, right? Interesting. I wonder why.

Right. Because, right. How many times do you read it through before it goes final to final print? And like, you have to imagine that like when it's there and it's going out you as the person who's writing it want to make sure that every word is getting it across correctly so that no one can even though they're going to like interpret it in some stupid way yeah i mean many many many times yeah by that point i was all in i was like hey yeah i'm just gonna be honest you know i said to my nephew who who i love the one who was our manny jeff oh yeah is he hot he reads us very hot on the he is hot

he is a lot of hookups you said he had trouble bringing hookups no no i i know i don't did i say that no whenever he met a hookup he said no he was like would you like to come back to my house, my place and do a puzzle? Because he lived in our playroom. And he's great. He's a director. He's directing a big Netflix movie in Atlanta right now. He's adorable. He's my sister, Emily's youngest son, my sister who died of pancreatic cancer. And he and I have always had this very special relationship.

And I wrote him and I said, hey, you read my book. Was it like, did I go too far or anything? And he said, I loved your book so much because it was so candid. It was one of the best books I've ever read. And I said, well, you're my nephew. course you're gonna say that but he said no that's what really makes it good it was you yeah being truthful and honest and putting it out there in in the best way possible so he's he is hot though I don't I don't know how to describe it he just really read as hot on the page I'm like yeah there's something about this Jeff and I was thinking about him at Disneyland like like with your daughters and I'm like yeah there's something about this jeff and i was thinking about him at disneyland like like with your daughters and i'm like is jeff gay too is he single because i was interested on the page i'll tell him but um he's straight and well he's divorced the journey is long you know

any really cute women i don't i don't i know not a one none he. He's awesome though. I love Jeff. We love Jeff too. Katie, what are you most excited for with the tour? You know, I think I'm just excited. And Bowen, you get to experience this with SNL. I think I'm excited to be, this sounds so cheese. And I'm kind of saying it jokingly in community who says that but you know i'm i'm excited to be around like living breathing people um i'm excited i'm excited to tell my story on my terms yeah um i'm excited about all the guests really interesting cool guests

that are that are going to be a part of it. I love Tan France. He's going to be in Boston. I'm really excited about Chloe and Melissa are going to be in New York. Ina Garten is going to be in Atlanta. Oh, cool. Jen Garner is going to be in L.A. Jen Garner.

Jen Garner. Yeah, she's so great. I mean, she's such a special person. Yeah. She radiates. Yeah. Doesn't she?

She also, like 13 going on 30 is underrated. People need to rewatch that because it's a tour de force. One of the best round of course of all time. It's a tour de force.

And in fact, I was telling Adriana who works with me that we've got to do a clip of her doing the thriller dance. Oh, iconic. 100%. Right, I was telling Adriana, who works with me, that we've got to do a clip of her doing the Thriller dance. Oh, iconic. 100%. Right?

She did it better than your ex-boyfriend, Michael. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And Chance the Rapper. Chance the Rapper in Chicago. Love that. Which is so fun. That is awesome.

And Nashville, Brad Paisley, who I just saw last night at the Michael J. Fox Foundation. Another hunk. And his beautiful wife, Kim. Kimberly. And they're incredible people. Wow. You know, I need to listen to more country music. Brad Paisley, he is such a talent, you guys.

He's really good. I mean, he's amazing. And, I mean, just watching him play the guitar and he did something uh the marshall tucker band can't you see he just kind of did it because someone said they were going to donate fifty thousand dollars to the michael j fox uh foundation if he played this song he had never played it before and he just like crushed it some people got it imagine can you imagine being able to do that you taught yourself to play piano by ear which is another thing that i really loved well you don't really yeah i mean i used to just sit down i took piano for 10 years but i played

just by ear everything in the ksc yeah like irving berlin i haven't played lately but um but but brad i mean brad paisley wouldn't be, if you had a superpower, you guys, what would it be? I mean, that sounds pretty good. Learning a song within what, like five minutes? Yeah. I don't, I think he just kind of like, I don't know how he did it. I got to talk to him when I'm in Nashville, but I wish I could, I wish I could just sing, like be like really, really really wouldn't that be cool to have just an incredible voice like kristen chenoweth or something ask matt matt's got a pretty good one

i pointed out earlier yeah i could tell matt do you do any i mean did you ever want to be a singer i sort of am one um i'm actually actually by the way for for the readers um thank you because the tour did sell out so have you heard of christmas as well i'm going all around the country oh my gosh all 11 of my dates sold out you guys so thank you so much well tell me about it i should have known this i guess so it's sort of an ironic original christmas album that i that i wrote when i was about four years ago i kind of wanted I saw Mariah Carey and she was going. Of course, she's the queen of Christmas. She had something to do every year.

I was like, I want a comedy version of that. I wrote with my musical director, Henry. We did an entire original Christmas album. Every song is fantastic. That's awesome. We do it every year. Were you performing in New York, Matt?e's pub um i have

two dates i would love to comp you to it when when is it i i can buy a ticket matt when is it sold out but but it's december 19th and 20th at joe's pub and then we're doing the bell house in brooklyn but katie couric if you want to come katie couric can come oh that's so exciting yeah congratulations thank you it's a blast i think if i if i could have a superpower it sounds crazy but honestly i think i was maybe i was a little emo after reading your book but i think i would want to just have me and everyone i love live forever honestly yeah i literally but then i also was very touched by something that your mom said which i think she probably said is a joke, but it actually made me feel better, which was, well, you know, if we all

live forever, get pretty crowded down here. It kind of reminds you of like that that's part of life. And, you know, it was sort of like a nice way to put it. And I also, you know, not to get not to get too serious, but, you know, I just went on a family vacation and I got back from it and I had such a great time. And then in reading your book, when you talked about like not wasting those moments and how, you know, if you had a regret, it was like lingering over coffee with your producer that one time so that you didn't spend those like extra minutes with your mother. And I just thought that that was such a great illustration and really powerful. And I think the book is so great for so many reasons. And I think you really do get to know you better. And I think it also, you know, does dive into a lot of tough topics because you

in being who you are, like have, have been through so many of these things that we that are now cultural topics for us. But I also think the book is also a reminder and it's a reminder that not everyone, that no one is going to be here forever, that we're not going to be here forever. And I just, I really wanted to say thank you for that because it's, I think a lot of people are going to get a lot from it.

Oh, thanks. I know I did. I had to put it down a couple times and just take a lap. You're right. Beautifully, beautifully, beautifully, beautifully. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are back. I love that.

I love that. Oh, my gosh. Welcome. And last season's drama was just the tip of the iceberg. You're recording us? I am disgusted! Never in a million years after everything we've been through did I think that you would reach out to our sworn enemy.

We were friends! How could you do this to me? I don't trust her. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Wednesdays at 9 on Bravo. Or stream it on City TV+. I felt too seen. Dragged.

I'm N.K., and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying, and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens

when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you.

And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week, Charlemagne Tha God sits down with Vice President Kamala Harris for a conversation you don't want to miss. Listen, I feel very strongly I need to earn every vote, which is why I'm here having this candid conversation with you and your listeners. They tackle the big questions, politics, policy, and what's next for the country. I am running to be president for everybody,

but I am clear-eyed about the history and the disparities that exist for specific communities, and I'm not going to shy away from that. Don't miss this in-depth interview with Charlemagne Tha God and Vice President Kamala Harris, only on The Breakfast Club. Catch the full interview now on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. helping any food service worker who gets hurt, gets sick, loses a family member or their housing. That's giving relief. So when you or someone you know is in crisis, tell them to ask for help from Giving Kitchen by visiting givingkitchen.org slash help. That's givingkitchen.org slash H-E-L-P.

Together, we are Giving Kitchen kitchen we help food service workers with that let's move on to i don't think so honey um the rollicking 60 second segment that the podcast is famous for you know katie the podcast has received critical acclaim i know it has i know that's why i that's why I reached out and requested that I be on it. Well, I'm so happy that three prestige figures... You guys are so nice and you're very fun to talk to because you're thoughtful,

right? It's hard to have a conversation with people if they're not kind of interested because that's what makes people interesting and that they don't think about things right so this has been really fun for me it's been fun for us this is a show that's all about just interest in general yeah just we ask people what they were interested in what

they're interested now and i i that's a beautiful way of putting it is that an expression that that makes people interesting is no i did that's that's that you can quote me on that it's a rule of culture is what it is that's that's an original observation by moi by katie what what rule of culture maybe that'll make it like quotes about people or you know interests and then when you google it it be like, interested people make interesting people. That's actually title of app. Title of app, title of episode. I love to find the title of app.

Matt, it's rule of culture number one. Interested people make interesting people. There we go. We just got to lock it in by saying it at the same time. Okay, this is our one minute segment where we take one minute to rail against something in culture and we'll go in the usual order, which is Matt

first. See, I kind of was so fixated on the guest and the guest book that I didn't actually have one, but then in the beginning of the episode, I came up with one again because I'm gonna return to it because I don't think so, honey. Okay, great. I'm so excited. This is Matt Rogers' I Don't Think So, Honey, as time starts now. I don't think so honey okay here we go i'm so excited this is matt rogers i don't think so honey his time starts now i don't think so honey this thing of megan mccain on watch what happens live why is why does she have an snl letterman's jacket

it's like she's in like the nine times club at this goddamn show and you're gonna have the gall bookers i'm not talking to you andy i don't think that you're responsible for the booking but on a wednesday night on this the second episode of the beverly hills housewives reunion where we dive into the cultural topic of the year erica jane and her divorce and you're gonna have megan mccain and god knows whoever s.e. cup is who never has a goddamn thing to say to get it wax poetic about the housewives. I don't care what they say. And then they have the gall to go in on my girl, Katie Couric,

and say they hate the book. You better go fuck yourself. And I think it's really funny that you're like, we support women when the number one talking point about your book, Meghan McCain, is how awful everyone at The View is. Give me a fucking break.

You couldn't help to keep talking about this. And of course, no one can tell their truth but you. Get lost. I don't think so, honey. And that's one minute. She really threw SNL under the bus too in that. She's pathetic. She's pathetic.

She said, you know, she's like, it's that thing when SNL sketches become real life that people started to think that I was entitled. I was like, no, it didn't take when SNL sketches become real life that people started to think that I was entitled. I was like, no, it didn't take an SNL sketch to make you that. It's like what Katie said about Sarah Palin. All she's got to do is talk. Just let her talk, and you'll see exactly how entitled she is.

And it's been kind of inescapable, like the media thing with her too right now because she's out there also hawking her book. I'm escaping it i'm i found the hatch i'm i'm gone i'm not really paying attention i wish i could find the hatch easier because she really was like sort of like a media firestorm there for a few days when she was like the view was a toxic work environment yeah like fucking get an original soundbite first of all and another thing is just like she really like with the snl of it all like

the day after that happened she was like highest honor in all the lands exactly she was so fucking chipper about it she just thrives off the negativity and thrives off the victim narrative and for her to think that she is the victim and in her life is just pathetic and i really really really resented her talking about your book the way that she did especially after reading the book because of how much what a share pain you have what a flattened assessment of it too hated it and i can't believe she's on watch what happens live more than andy cohen anyway and our guest agrees our guest is silently gesturing I'm listening

she's choosing joy right now she's choosing joy as her hoodie says her hoodie says choose joy and that is the right choice Bowen I don't think I have a thing to rag about is that bad can you guys excuse me from this exercise would you get mad at me

you don't have to do anything you don't want to do but i think it would be good and while bowen is doing his maybe i think i've bitched enough actually in this podcast right come on if you would do us the honor of listening to mine mine is going to be of course mine is going to be pretty ribald and ribald see two words already two words in the episode of you know I had to look up a couple words because I knew I knew inherently what they were but I wanted to be sure I had to look up

pugilistic aggressive that was a beautiful illustration of what Bill O'Reilly is yeah and then I knew what Bon Vivant was but I was just curious about what the is. Yeah. And then I knew what Bon Vivant was, but I was just curious about what the definition of it was.

And then I, it was confirmed for me and I loved it. And I, I think I have. Someone who, you are Bon Vivant. Someone who lives with gusto

and who loves, loves life. I just love, I love that Bon Vivant. And I just, I gravitate towards that. I'm actually looking up Rye Ball to make sure

that I shouldn't have. I'm sure you're right. I trust you. I'm looking. There was another one too. I might, I might Rival to make sure that I shouldn't have. I'm sure you're right. I trust you. I'm looking. There was another one, too. I might beat you to it. I don't know. Okay, Google is saying ribald, but I will adopt your pronunciation.

Hey, but I think the second definition is with a long I. So I think either is acceptable so i'd like to apologize bowen for correcting ribald which sounds like dribble that's why ribald sounds a little better to me will you find out h i think ribald is certainly the more uh pleasing seems more correct but maybe that's the british pronunciation i'm not sure i was also at math and turned to words as well yeah i i was horrible if i never met a number i liked never met a word i didn't love there you go you are my people exactly i felt you know what my favorite word was when i was little nonchalant nonchalant

that's a good word i like it very french the other word that people use incorrectly all the time is nonplussed nonplussed yep i knew you were gonna say that why did you know that how did you know i actually knew too it was because it it's like one of those weird ones it's one of those weird ones it it the definition is different than what it sounds as if yes yeah plus means you're angry means very stirred and shaken agitated i think yes isn't it yes and non-plus like when people it sounds like they should be like i don't know i'm kind of non-people think it means it means you're unfazed but that's not correct that's not it that's not it that's no this can be your i don't think so honey katie okay but i i can i can go really quickly on mine and then i have i have an i don't

i don't think so honey but it might not be as long as that's one minute yeah as long as you here's the thing remember when i said you don't have to do it you actually do you do it's part of the briefing it's part of the contract and this is this whole thing is a verbal contract okay which are binding i'm sorry but they're binding all right so bowen yang first you and you do have to do one you are we're gonna get into a big fight my sister okay and this is not this is not like the today show me and you are a real family okay okay so listen bowen yang this is your i don't think so honey bowen yang's time starts now i don't think so honey the marketing behind dude wipes for those who are unfamiliar these are you know flushable wipes

for men quote unquote when we all know that it is actually being purchased by queer men gay men anyone who engages in anal sex this is true okay this is for people sitting on my bathroom right there's no such thing as a cishet man who is using these to keep a clean butt 100 they're gonna go for the toshi they're gonna go for the bidet 30 seconds i don't have such plumbing in my apartment i just don't want to think about that so i'm just relying on the dude wipes which not environmentally conscious of me i know but i just something really gets to me about the way these are marketed as if they're marketed to like a fraternity brother when i know for a fact that it's only the bottoms in the world like myself who are using it to actually feel like they can walk into a sexual situation with some confidence and not any self-consciousness about five seconds so i need the marketing around

dude wipes to change just call them something with the f word the other f word that's women that's we're they're not going to be called fag wipes okay and that's where i want them to be called fag wipes katie you don't have to worry about this because you're a woman and a top but the thing is that like there are these there are these you know these these these flushable wipes that we need to sort of keep the area okay. And so that's what Bowen is. I don't think so. And Honey, the fact that they're calling them dude wipes as if a straight man.

Why don't they just call them wipes? Why do they have to be male wipes? Exactly. Because doesn't everyone? When they're like the lady pen, like the pink pen, the Bic for women or whatever. It's just stupid. It's a marketing. Degender everything.

Who makes these? Who makes dude wipes? I don't know. Well, there's Pure for Men, which is a company that sells fiber supplements. I can't believe this. And they also make their own line of flushable wipes. And I used to buy them,

but it's more convenient. They ship faster if I buy the dude wipes. And so I've been buying the dude wipes. I follow this Instagram page, which is like men of soccer and it's like you know it's like it's like they have the most amazing asses in the world and so i'm sometimes i'm scrolling and i'm looking at them and i'm like yeah but let's not pretend that's like you can't even like really get excited about anything here because

straight men's butts are the most disgusting thing in the world they don't take your ultimate swamp ass the ultimate that's what i'm saying like Like, swamp ass. I mean, come on. This is, like, the central. Okay, I think it's time for Katie's. I don't think so. Do not let Katie respond to this. Like, let her do it in her own book. She's not in.

Yeah, you thought you went there? No, then you came to Lost Culligan. We were going there. Um, all right. It's time. And then we'll let you go okay good because i gotta go guys i love you but don't you have stuff to do we have stuff to do too okay sorry sorry okay what do i say honey i don't think so honey and then the name of the thing you're on the thing all right bow and put her on the clock. This is Katie Couric's I Don't Think So, Honey.

I can't believe I'm saying this, and her time starts now. I don't think so, honey. I think you need to be able to use a few sentences without saying like. Like, like, like, like, like. Can't you speak English? Didn't you? I mean, come on, people.

No! Not you guys. We do it all the time. Not you guys. I don't know. Maybe it's something for this, people. No. Not you guys. We do it all the time. Not you guys. I don't know. Maybe it's something for this younger generation. Yeah. But you guys, just pause.

Because if you are thinking about something, don't use like as a crutch. I used to use you know as a crutch. But now every person, highly educated individuals, I want to say they sometimes use like 45 times in a one minute conversation. I can't deal with it. Stop it. Listen to yourself. Record yourself. Count your likes and get rid of them.

People love Katie. Now say I don't think so, honey. One more time, I don't think so. Honey. One more time. I don't think so. Honey. There you go. And now,

you know, what's going to happen. What? I don't like, think so. Like honey. No, that's not how it goes.

It goes. I don't think so. Honey. Yes, it does. You did a perfect toss of the wrist and the neck as well can i say i'm gonna listen back to this now and turn to count my legs when i realized how many times i've said like because that just didn't pop in your head no no i know and and and even my my daughter who is

so smart no she sometimes falls back on the like thing and i want to say hey don't say like so much but then she'll get mad at me i have a question have you liberated yourself from you know as a filler word for the most part i have i how did you do that i don't know i think i just got older and smarter there you go so with time with time we'll lose the cultural that is like my new my new crutch is kind of that's kind of honestly and sometimes at the end of a sentence you know you know i need affirmation you know a lot of my transitions i i whenever i listen back to this for edits, a lot of my, like,

see, I just did it like, blah, blah, eh, eh. A lot of the things I say to transition into sentences are the same thing. And the readers of the podcast know what I'm talking about and I refuse to say it now.

But it is, it's interesting. And, you know, Janine Garofalo did the same I don't think so honey she did she did I love her you guys have that in common we love her too yeah wow what a wonderful episode Katie thank you so much for joining us

no thank you all for having me I really appreciated the conversation and you know I would be friends with both of you if we could we're all friends you're coming to my show okay i am coming to the show i'm gonna i'm gonna reach out to everybody okay and do you run do you really run your social media is that you have but i do i do a lot of it but i I do have help. My social media person is Julia Lewis. She does a lot of it.

Adriana Fazio, who works with me and really helped me write this book. She did her senior thesis on me at Notre Dame and interviewed me for her thesis. And during the interview, we were talking and she grew up watching the Today Show and she was writing about the changing perceptions of femininity and morning television and broadcast journalism. And so when she was interviewing me, I said, Adriana, you know so much about me. Do you want to help me work on this book? And so she came to work with me after she graduated from Notre Dame. And she's been great. And she's sort of my right-hand person.

And I want to mention Lucy Kalin. She was the former editor of O Magazine. Lucy helped me tremendously. If you saw on the acknowledgments, I don't think you have them. I don't have them in mind. I think you guys have the ARCs. I don't know if, Matt, you have the hardcover. I have the PDF.

Oh, you have the PDF. So you have the acknowledgments. I read the whole thing. So Lucy is an amazing, amazing person. She is an amazing writer. So she was incredibly helpful. And I couldn't have done it without Lucy and Adriana by my side. And, you know, what's really nice, you guys,

we worked on this for three years, and we all really love each other and care about each other. And it was obviously an incredible bonding experience. Absolutely. But I feel very close and grateful to both of them. Well, we of them. Well, we thank them. We love everybody at KCM.

Yeah. Love the crew. Yeah, tell your listeners to sign up for my newsletter if they can. Wake up call. Sign up, readers. Sign up. You get a newsletter and you get like Katie's recommendations, picks. It's like music you're listening to. It's like stuff you're watching.

Yeah, we interview a lot of interesting people we try to break down the news of the day and you know and give up you know and give you information you need and also tell your listeners that we would love to see them in any of the cities i'm visiting starting October 28th in Boston. Boston, New York, San Francisco, LA, Nashville, Atlanta, Dallas, Philadelphia. Savannah Guthrie is joining me in Philadelphia.

Oh, that's great. The book is going there. It's out now. It's incredible. It's written by our amazing guest, Katie Couric. Thank you so so so much for coming here love you guys thank you love you back and we end every episode with a song and it's a short one and it's the end of the mary teller moore theme song here we go bow you're gonna make it after all

one more time. You're gonna make it after all. Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun. Yes. Bye. Bye. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. What is wrong with me? A show about the ways that mental illness is shaped by not just biology.

Swaps of different meds. But by culture and society. By looking closely at the conditions that cause mental distress, I find out why so many of us are struggling to feel sane, what we can do about it, and why we should care. Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Joe Gatto. I'm Steve Byrne. Together we do the Two Cool Moms podcast, which is a podcast where we help dispense advice to our loyal listeners. Everybody has an issue. Everybody has something that they need help with. Right. And that's where we come in.

Because our moms were cool moms. We like to think that we have inherited their maternal advice. And we try to just do some good. Besides being comedians, we love to help. Guys, bring us your queries. They could be personal questions. They could be serious. They could be lighthearted.

Yeah. But know this. We are here for you. Yeah. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts or on the iHeartRadio app. Hey there. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior.

Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything, that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these moments. Their stories are full of candor and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change.

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, fam. I'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robay. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side, the podcast from Hello Sunshine that's guaranteed to light up your day. Check out our recent episode with actor and Emmy-winning producer Laverne Cox. I think you hit a certain age where it's just like it is so much energy trying to fake it and be somebody else that it's just so much easier to just be yourself. Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.