Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang - "New Depths and New Angles" (w/ BenDeLaCreme & Jinkx Monsoon)

Episode Date: February 22, 2023

Matt. Bowen. Jinkx. DeLa. Four names. ONE stirring episode of Las Culturistas! This love quadrangle explores topics such as David Bowie in Labyrinth, Larping, choosing one's avatar, resisting an adversarial dynamic as a queer performance duo, Amanda Palmer's Art of Asking, negotiating persona and personhood and the asses on Broadway. Also, Jinkx bringing drag to the great white way in Chicago, DeLa's Type A powers, Barb & Star, Ryan Murphy's Feud, macaroni linguistics, the de-evolution of the English language through TikTok, and how the attacks on drag in America are both new and quite familiar. It's an EPIC one, readers! Nobody's GOT nooooo Claaaaaaaaassssss! Except DeLa and Jinkx. We love 'em!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This fall on Bravo. It's time to turn up. Think you've seen it all? I don't think you've been a good friend to me lately. We're friends like that, who needs enemies? You ain't seen nothing yet. Cheers to being Germanic. With the Real Housewives of Potomac.

Oh my gosh, can I take this in? It's gonna be amazing. New York City. Everyone is a gossip. No one gets a happier life. Salt Lake City. We don't wear costumes, we wear fashion. And below deck sailing out.

You broke the rules and now you're here getting upset. Watch all new seasons on Bravo or stream it on City TV+. Let's have a real good time. I'm Sheryl Swoops. And I'm Tarika Foster-Brasby. And on our new podcast, we're talking about the real obstacles women face day to day. Because no matter who you are, there are levels to what we experience as women. And T and I have no problem going there.

Listen to Levels to This with Cheryl Swoops and Tarika Foster-Brasby, an iHeart Women's Sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami. Imagine that your mother died

trying to get you to freedom. Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Look, Matt. Where? Oh, I see. Wow. Oh, my. Look over there. there wow is that culture yes goodness wow opening thought are you excited about sort of i'm gonna put this in quotes taking seven and a half

and when i say that we sort of told our guests we're gonna go for like a hard seven and a half up top meeting seven and a half minutes of pop culture seven and then we're sort of some pithy jokes flying around about being excited like i'll take seven and a half and then my thought i wanted to open with was are we excited about seven and a half or is that too big go no i think that's in the goldilocks zone okay really You described to me a dick that was like a any time someone says baby arm

I go oh let's reconsider. Well have I ever told you about the time I had sex with a guy I bought him for a guy that had a baby arm

and I swear to God my asshole made a noise like a Snapple cap was opening. It was like and I also hit like a Mariah note I was like

and we laughed and we could not keep having sex after that, but that's okay. We had sex later, probably about a week and a half later, seven and a half. Sure. Why did you laugh?

Because you guys read a fact off the cap and it was, it was, did you know that 10% of gay people go on? No, I want to know this. Are homeowners?

Only 10%. God, the market's bad well it's 10 of 10 if 10 of the world is queer right so closing that loop we're both excited about seven and a half but if it's a baby arm and we make a noise like a soft drink you can laugh it off and just get ready for later so sort of that's now that's a topic that's already been discussed on the podcast and we're leaving it behind. Now let's move on to this new thing of how many people in the world are queer. It was so often said 10%,

but I feel like this, this number is changing. Well, yeah, I mean, you know what, at least in this country, the census is every 10 years.

So we're going to have to wait for another seven years to figure out what the new status. I have not checked. I just kind of pulled that number out because I think that sounds like roughly the right figure. I'm probably wrong. Can the census taker ask me how I express myself sexually? No. Can they ask me that? Sometimes I go, how do these people know?

Sometimes I fill out the census and... They leave saying fag. Well, I send back the census going, you're not getting anything out of me. No. But the bare essentials. Yeah. I open the door to the census taker and I cross my arms like this.

Well, go on. Go on. Ask away. See what you can get out of me, bitch. I missed the census takers from 2020 because we were in the pandemic. We were in lockdown and there was no census takers that I remember were there. It's been a while. It's like Hannibal Lecter once said, a census taker tried to test me once.

And I said, girl, it's the pandemic. Come back later. Anyway, today is going to be a really fun episode of The Pod. It's been a really incredible sort of week and a half. I have tattoos now. Congrats. Are you aquaphoring? Oh, you still have the thing on the other one. Well, they told me four days.

We went to an iconic tattoo artist, Bowen Kame, and I got a little house on my wrist to get a matching tattoo with house. And I got this 22 on my other wrist to denote a powerful year a powerful year and a powerful taylor swift song as well producer becca says in the chat they came in 2020 but apparently in 2021 they are now asking about sexual orientation before then they did not ask sexual orientation in the census good to know so we're gonna find out in nine years oh i'm sorry seven years i don't know i don't want to know who cares okay i don't want to know so we're gonna find out in nine years oh i'm sorry seven years i don't know i don't want to know who cares okay i don't want to know anyone else's it's not queer to like yeah exactly be known in that way it's not queer to be known in that way isn't that such a beautiful oscar wilde

thought it's not queer to be known in that way it's not queer to be known in that way oh my god i went to queer britain this lovely museum in the uk they have oscar wilde's prison door what in the exhibit i go this is this is too sad i gotta i gotta move on if walls could talk anyway wait what prison door was he in prison for homosexuality they threw him in jail they they did we can't talk about it. It's too sad. Can you imagine? No. Well, the mood is horrible now. Now the mood's bad. So many queer gay writers from the past suffered terrible fates. Yeah, bring the mood back

up. Frank O'Hara got run over by a car on Fire Island. That's how he died. I did not know about this. And to hear about this, I'm so happy we're sort of starting this podcast in this way. I did not know he was run over in the Fire Island Pines. That was awful.

I think we could not have better guests. I mean, as guests, this is the perfect sort of intro lead-in to our guests. I would say these are two cerebral people. Very smart people. Who who are gonna have a

lot to say about this the frank o'hara and oscar wilde of our generation some something keep them inside keep them inside i gotta say i was a little um not nervous i just had you stress it's the good kind of stress when you go into a situation why like oh because of our guests yeah i'm so excited here's the thing genuine true deep wells of talent and i mean if you were lucky enough to see their christmas tour then you were one of the luckiest fuckers in america i could not see them because i was on my own tour but i did sort of run into them iconically in the ronald reagan airport and we took a powerful queer photo that i posted to grid because I said, this is too powerful.

It's what Reagan would have wanted. The only thing missing was you, Bo. Then it would have burned to the ground. It's like a scene out of the comeback or something. You know, it's like two different queer Christmas comedy shows touring at the same time, but meeting each other at the airport,

running into each other at the airport is very like curb your enthusiasm to come back. I love that that it's like a little like behind the scenes of showbiz kind of thing and that's why i brought it right to the grid right right you know them from not just drag race but drag race all stars you know them from a multitude of projects between them and if you're lucky enough to be in new york now, you can go see one of them on Broadway as Major Mama Morton. We were so lucky to be able to go. I was personally blessed to be in the front row, which that's I sort of get really high and then just buy tickets. And then when I show up, I realized, oh, I bought the front row.

Center Orchestra. Center Orchestra front row. I was like, OK, I was enveloped. And it was one of the best things I've seen. And I was like, okay. I was enveloped and it was one of the best things I've seen. And I've been seeing everything. And I was so happy I went. Excellent. Electrifying.

The energy in that audience is truly incredible. I've never really seen anything like it. And brand new. And brand new. It's a brand new energy. We're going to talk about it. But gosh, you know him, you love him. And if you weren't lucky enough to see their Christmas special,

it is beautifully captured as a one-hour special that you can see on any streaming service you'd like any for rental or purchase any one of them except for the ones that you subscribe to is that correct we're so thrilled to have them here It's truly our honor to have Ben Dillacrab and Jake Sponsoon! Hello, hi, hi, hi. Hi, hi, hi. Is every introduction that gushing? Because... No. Say no. I said no. They're not always that gushing in every single sense of the term. No, this is major and huge. It was love at first sight for us with both of you.

It's true. It's lovely to be here with you guys. Wait, I want to... Who's the Larry David in the airport scenario? Oh. I guess, who was it following? I mean, look... Whoever's the richest?

Yeah, who's the richest? Let's talk. Let's get real about the finances. Great place to start. Whoever's the most into crypto that would be ben i think i just need to point out that okay first of all thank all three of you for coming to see chicago on broadway it was so fucking it was so good um'all came at different times. So it's nice to have friends peppered throughout the experience. Most recently, Bowen came with my middle school boyfriend, Sam Lansky, the bestselling author of The Gilded Razor that is written about his youth and overcoming addiction. And he couldn't remember a lot of the details of when we dated. So I helped him write the chapter that's about me cheating on him in middle school.

Oh, wow. I heard there was a really sordid love triangle at which Jinx was the vertex of this triangle. Is that correct? It was me and two boys named Sam. Wow. True middle school strumpet behavior. I've always been a whore.

Yeah, it's continued through life. It's not as if that was some sort of childish phase. The childishness was ever thinking that I was someone who should be monogamous. Of course. And that ended at middle school. That's beautiful. And then do you feel some sort of cosmic

connection to people named Sam, or is that just trivial? People named Sam just come into my life and stay there. But you have remained friends, clearly. Yeah, Sam Lansky and I, it's just, oh, and then the third Sam in question is Sam Rogers. I hope he doesn't mind me naming him, but I really like bringing up these two. They've both been on, they weren't on my podcast yet, but they were on the thing that predates my podcast which is

a digital show i did in the pandemic called jinx calls her friends and that's exactly what it was and i called both of these sams and what's really really cool is we all met in middle school we were all queer we were all the same age um sam lansky and I came out really early. Sam Rogers came out in high school. We all said in middle school what we wanted to do with our lives. And all three of us do exactly what we said we were going to do in middle school, including Sam Rogers, who said he wanted to be a famous actor and a lawyer. And he was in the revival of West Side Story on Broadway. And then when he felt like he had felt his acting out, he retired from acting, went back to school, and now he's a lawyer. Oh, my word.

Incredible. The power. Every box, Josh. And not every love triangle, everyone sort of gets what they want. You know what I mean? It's really rare for everyone in a love triangle to like leave it and go on to sort of good things you know you could y'all could have really broken each other right there i know i think it's queerness i mean i think of the queer people in my life like dayla is probably the most

type a uh i don't even know she's a monster but like also she's incredible like it's she's an incredible monster she's a deity she's a wrathful deity she's capable of such incredible things with her personality and it comes you know at a cost for everyone involved including her but queer people just get shit done i mean look at the four of us if the four of us ever morphed into one person we'd be the next president i think we can do it as a refracted beam of light for individual people we can each run for office that's my take i'm in let's do it i mean is there any reason we can't kind of reconfigure things where actually our quadruple just is, I mean, maybe this is, becomes

one of those successful offshoots of one of Jinx's early relationships and we all go for the presidency together as a four-person ticket. Three first husbands and, you know, we take turn playing league. Absolutely.

There are swings. there are swings there are swings and dale is sipping from a manifest that shit mug and so like manifestation is just in the air this was it's maybe the cheesiest drink where i've ever owned but it was sent to me by my drag hero varla jean merman and i'm like i will always drink from it forever a mug is a great gift and it can be powerful B.D. Wong sent me a mug that's my favorite mug it says the word balls on it I love it

and I don't think you can escape cheesiness or corniness if you have text on a mug you just have to embrace the fact that it's like it's silly it's lovely it's low stakes it's rule. It's lovely. It's low stakes. It's rule of culture. Mugs can be silly.

It's actually a rule of culture. Bowen. What number was that? 57. It was really good. Number 57. Mugs can be silly. I mean,

we're drinking coffee. We're having fun already. Why not have more fun? Why not say it with me? Maximalize. Drag it up. Oh my goodness. And this is actually

Mug's first public appearance. Really? Wow. Yeah, it's a big moment for both of us. It's his coming out party. I'm so glad you're here for this. Yes. Wait, Jinx is in New York, obviously. Matt's in LA. Dayla, where are you joining us from? I'm getting PNW vibes. I'm in Los Angeles as well.

Sort of a beautiful day, huh? It's lovely, but I'm in my studio, which is a basement, so it's neither here nor there, but yes. Well, if at any time you want to emerge, honey, LA is LA-ing. I'm ready. Where are we going? To the market.

Perfect. How fun was the tour? Was it the situation of every day is incredible and gorgeous and because we have one person that's like hey come on we're gonna make the flight and one person who's like i'm coming i'm coming i'm coming is jinx's battle cry our tours are a lot because we have a huge emotional investment in the show right like it's not like a show where it's just like you get up and do a couple numbers and you know you have a meet and greet and you're girling with the girls

backstage our show is our baby it is also you know it's our opus our annual opus that we pour our heart and souls into um you know it it really we put a lot of ourselves into it so um how the show goes each night determines how we are for until the following show basically i have to say more than any other year you and I didn't come off stage. Like, you know, sometimes you come off stage and you're like, oh, how did that wind up being what that was tonight? And I don't think we had a show like that this year. It's a good feeling. It was amazing. This year being the first year back to touring post-pandemic, where people started to feel at ease of even being there.

Like, you know, our tour last year or two years ago got canceled at the end of it because everyone got COVID. Not just us, everyone. You know, it was like another wave. So a lot of things went back down. And now it's been, it feels like we're all starting to actually feel over the worst of it. So there is a gratitude between performers and audiences right now that is palpable. It's like we're all so grateful to be back at it. And I think a lot of people have realized what aspects of live entertainment they were taking for granted,

both performers and audience members. So I have felt it through our holiday tour. I felt it this entire run of Chicago, like audiences are really, really excited to be back in the theater. And it's just like a chicken and an egg thing because performers are bringing a lot of joy to their performance just happy to be back at it and that makes the audience excited and then they excited and they love you for loving them and they love you for loving you and we all just love each other because none of us got all that full of in our childhoods and that the energy was really great and i like maybe it is because there was the pandemic and i didn't obviously we didn't see anything you kind of take for granted what you

didn't see before that like i kick myself thinking about how long i lived in new york and i didn't see all these like incredible shows like all throughout my 20s you can't replicate that experience and then all of a sudden you're turned around and so-and-so's not in the show anymore that show's not available to see anymore so yeah that that's definitely been true for me i am online on broadway.com purchasing but with the tour it's like i think because would you say that the tour kind of is this facsimile of like your dynamic in real life where like then dayla is is trying to execute on this holiday special and Jinx is like,

well, I don't have the same idea of a Christmas special thing as the new day. But to do that every night is, I would say, maybe emotionally the boundaries move a little bit or aren't totally defined. Do you ever get lost?

It's changed a little over the years too because we rewrite the show essentially every year we always are like let's change one or two things and then it's like 90 different um but this did definitely reflect uh i mean i was the one who was like jinx we should do a holiday show like initially and we sort of talked about this thing being like we'll do we'll make it really easy breezy you know we used to host these drag race like viewing parties we'll just get up there and like you know have a few drinks jinx doesn't drink anymore but we used to have a couple martinis like sing some songs it'll be very casual and then i sort of jinx i may be misremembering this but i think this is an accurate representation of our dynamic that i was like no actually scratch that we're scripting an entire thing and so it is very much the character is very

much a reflection of of that and i am always sort of in real life i'm not dragging jinx through anything because she's exceptionally game but i also think that you know we've had this uh character dynamic where we're really adversarial. And this year was the first year where we were like, with this show, we're starting to develop more of a buddy comedy thing where we're like on an adventure together. Yeah. Because I think it was feeling, I think just our relationship changed and the show is changing with it. Yeah. But you know what like the first instinct for a queer duo to play an adversarial dynamic i think is like something

that a lot of people can identify with i think bowen and i for sure a lot of our early work is us being like super adversarial and i think there is an instinct to want to like stand across from each other like arms at the hips like what are you have to say to me because it like harkens back to like a dynasty soap opera type situation of like let me best you and it is but it is inherently playful but yeah sometimes it can feel like maybe sometimes it gets a little real well you know one thing that i've kind of been becoming much more aware of, and this is one of the few things I can thank Ryan Murphy unabashedly for, is that the feud Betty and Joan really taught me how toxic it is to pit people against each other when they otherwise wouldn't have been you know like and i think you know it's so funny you're talking about you and bowen dale and i had that my music partner and i have always had a we're two people at odds my comedy partner nick sahoya our early work was all about us just

hating each other yeah so um i do think there that's built into just being, because when there's a scarcity of opportunities for people, when you think of females in this industry being so disenfranchised and then queer people in this industry being disenfranchised, for much of history, of course we get pit against each other because we're being told there's only one spot for us and what we're finding out these days is no let's claim a lot more space rather than fighting over the one spot let's demand two spots and dylan and i just kind of naturally over the years have shifted from writing kind of like adversarial variety shows to this year was the first year we wrote a play with a buddy film kind of motif to it and I think that's the direction we're heading because it was really rewarding to say this year we are writing a drag variety show and we're writing a three act play. Done.

That's what we're doing. I think we also, right. Like we have different touchstones now as queer people for like femininity and culture, right? Like all about Eve is sort of how we grew up and now we have like Abby and Alana, you know,

like there's a different shift in how women in media are sort of no longer being presented as pitted against each other in the way that they were at a different time yeah it's less like i'm looking hot today isn't it and it's more like you're looking hot today you know it's sort of which is such an amazing shift and it's cool to see that expand into the world of drag which is historically catty yeah totally but i think this is all leading to both of you doing at some point, like a, whatever happened to baby Jane type.

We are so perfectly already. Those archetypes. Yeah. So already the like bleeding heart martyr in the wheelchair. And I'm so already the bitter old vaudeville clown in her shadowy castle um murder I know legitimately put a pot wow yeah this fall on bravo it's time to turn up think you've seen all? I don't think you've been a good friend to me lately.

We're friends like that. Who needs enemies? You ain't seen nothing yet. Cheers to being Germanic. With the Real Housewives of Potomac. Oh my gosh, can I take this in? It's gonna be amazing. New York City.

Everyone is a gossip. No one gets a happier life. Salt Lake City. We don't wear costumes, we wear fashion. And below deck sailing out. You broke the rules and now you're here getting upset. Watch all new seasons on Bravo or stream it on City TV+. Let's have a real good time.

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. My latest episode is with Jelly Roll. This episode is one of the most honest and raw interviews I've ever had. We go deep into Jelly Roll's life story from being in and out of prison from the age of 13 to being one of today's biggest artists. We talk about guilt, shame, body image, and huge life transformations. I was a desperate, delusional dreamer. And the desperate part got me in a lot of trouble. I encourage delusional dreamers.

Be a delusional dreamer. Just don't be a desperate, delusional dreamer. I just had such an anger. I was just so mad at life. Everything that wasn't right was everybody's fault but mine. I had such a victim mentality. I took zero accountability for anything in my life. I was the kid that if you asked what happened, I immediately started with everything but me. It took years for me to break that, like years of work. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. I felt too seen, um, dragged. I'm NK and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies. On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle

to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you. And it will call you a basket case. Listen to Basket Case every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In the spirit of claiming space and celebrating one another rather than being adversarial, I just want to take a moment to gush over the two of you.

No need, no need. No, I need to. I need. Matt showed off his tattoo with the 22 significant ear. I have to imagine that includes I love that for you. That show is so good and you are so good in it.

Thank you so much. It's incredible. It's incredible. I'm so happy you both enjoy it. That means the most to me that like the funniest coolest people enjoy i think that was the first thing that tumbled out of our mouth when we saw you in the airport that day too i feel like we yeah bowen to see you kill it on snl is just so significant i mean like snl is an institution and i'm so glad they finally are realizing that queer people be funny too but you are doing such wonderful stuff on that show and so unapologetically for such a large

broad audience and that is so important for our community that means so much thank you you know the flamboyant inanimate object journey is i gotta say i i think i have to like put a period on it because no i love it no because it opens up you know i think we learned this bowen like bowen and i used to be a part of this children's theater performance collective called story pirates and kids would write stories and you would perform as these things that they wrote so you would routinely be like I'm a pencil and I'm going through a divorce I have to find a way to get

this document to my husband who's a mug a coffee mug here we go and you spin a circle and it's just like I remember when that was happening it opened up the possibility for what you could play and so i do think it's fucking fun that bowen like plays these things because it's like very queer too i love it

oh no certainly certainly i think i'm still figuring out where i'm landing with this because it's that thing where like if you do comedy at some point you're like oh when does your act become your enemy you're like when does this start but maybe that's my own fucking weird pathology because you guys all find ways to make things interesting because you guys are literally doing a show on a recurring basis and are having to iterate on it repeatedly and making it interesting so that you like fall back in love with it and i just need to like with snl it's like it's hard to fall back in love with the thing because all that's crystallized is what's on tape and if you do want to revisit it it has to like in some way outdo the last showing of it and so that's why it's right it's a different relationship maybe

but that means a lot coming from both of you because i think between the two of you it's five for five the top snatch game performances ever 100 paul andine, Maggie Smith, Judy Garland, Natasha Lyonne, and Lil Udi, those are in the top five, period. Between two people. Amazing. You guys never even overlapped seasons. I think that is this wonderful thing that I think is so cool about some duos now, where it's

like, you see these two people who are individually phenomenal. And then to see them sort of force multiply each other is just really awesome well i'll let dayla talk on it because she'll be more concise than i will but i think my best work is in partnership like across the board like i i perform solo when i have to but all of my best work is in collaboration i agree i feel the same i feel the same way i've been told i'm supposed to speak on this i just i was volleying it to you i was setting up a topic but what's the topic that i

i can't live without you? No collaboration. Collaboration as strength. Oh yeah. Because Dayla was working solo, you know, and continues to work solo. When I work solo, it's actually with my music partner.

We've always joked that my solo shows are actually two people. We just call it my solo show. Um, but Dayla's solo shows, it's her on stage. And if she's with a scene partner, it's a puppet that she's also operating. So,

and until she can get her hand up there and move my mouth for me. Which I'm working on. Who's to say she can't? And so is James. But you know, and it's true that when I'm doing my solo projects that i am the only person on stage but i do collaborate with a lot of people in process so it's still the result of multiple

uh voices which i think is particularly important when you're been at it for this long and like you were saying bowen when you are i mean we've been doing the same characters for decades at this point. Right, right. Oh my gosh. And in order to keep that interesting, both for us and I think an audience, it's like we've constantly had to discover new depths and new angles to that, which I think is really cool to be able to take these. Jinx. Oh, wow. I'm constantly discovering new depths and new angles. Oh, wow. I'm constantly discovering new depths and new angles.

Oh, brother. Do you remember the wedge? Is that still a thing? The wedge. The sex wedge. The sex wedge. I don't know. I saw a lot of ads

for that sex wedge. I don't know. Angles. Oh, a sex wedge. Like something you wedge in there to sort of, you know, discover new...

It's like a pillow. It's like a little ski slope that you're supposed to put your butt on, kind of. Oh, that's great! Oh, I can use that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, check it out.

It's called The Wedge or something. I'm Googling. But what the hell was I talking about? New depths and new angles. Oh, we're right. But I do think that it's fun that Jinx and I have these very cartoonish over

sort ofated characters, but we've gotten to find ways within our work with each other, we get to find ways to play more of the humanity of them underneath that, which I think has been really important in terms of the longevity of this project, is that every year, I think we dive further into that and people have even more of a strong emotional connection to it. And so what I'm saying is

I think you have to spend more time as a weather balloon in order to find... Yes, because they're just going to keep coming. They're just going to keep coming. They really are. It's like there's so many of them. You could do them with different accents, Bo. It's SNL. They love that accent. Oh my god, they love

xenophobic humor. They love sort of accents, big, you know. But I wanted to ask about like specifically the characters of Jinx Monsoon and Ben de la Creme because when you both came into Drag Race, I would say that these were both highly characterized personas that you had, you know, Jinx Monsoon with the lifted arm and the sort of swimsuit.

Like we got what it was immediately. And then Ben de la Creme, you know jinx monsoon with the lifted arm and the sort of swimsuit like we got what it was immediately and then ben de la creme you know that sort of like pin-up vibe that you were playing i wonder how much did drag race challenge you how did literally the drag race of it all challenge you to find new depths and new angles in those characters as it were because it feels like that's something that they say it's like well we want to know you the vulnerability it is the vulnerability you know what i'm saying it's a double-edged sword because i think both positive and difficult things came out of that breaking down the wall of the character and seeing the artist inside and after season five i felt like people would come to my shows expecting to see jinx the artist you know the water off a duck's back right you know sensitive

soul and jinx the character is a narcissistic pessimisticilistic, milfy bitch, right? Yeah. And so people would come to my shows and be kind of shocked at what my material is versus who they thought they were going to meet that night. And so I kind of spent a while between season five and All-Stars 7 reintroducing the character to my audiences so that they could tell the difference. And it took, I mean, like, that's why i'm kind of glad all stars seven happened when it did because after a decade and especially after teaming up with dayla and getting our show seen by so many more people because when we combine our powers our reach is like incredible um it's 12 feet so it just it's like by season seven i had a very clear idea of who jinx the character was

so did my audience and i spent season seven using that as a way to reintroduce the character and now when people come to my show, they know exactly what the fuck they're going to get. And that is such a boon to me, because it means I get to start from the plateau of people get it. I don't have to introduce as much to them in all of my shows. I get to start from a place of mutual understanding. Totally. Right. Which is such an old school way to approach drag that we do where there's really like one character at the heart of it

and that's not every drag queen, which is great, right? Like we have drag queens with a lot of different skill sets, but it's a real challenge when it goes into a reality TV format and you're supposed to like cry about your dead mom or whatever while you're putting on makeup. She can say that. Her mom's dead yeah just this morning actually it was rough but um

but the thing is that we have these like amazing larger than life characters and so i imagine this was very intentional going into season six that I I had the benefit of Jinx just being on five and so I got to like learn from some of her experiences so I knew okay I have to let people know what they're going to see when they come on stage the backfire when I come on stage they're not going on stage it's not interactive the like backfire aspect of that is that if your character has is cartoony and sort of over the top but has any sort of nuance then that does not no nuance comes apart across on reality tv so people are sort of all the time like oh my god she's so positive and sweet and i'm like but when i use her on stage it's basically a critic like it's a critique of the outlook

totally yes yes so that was a little weird and then all stars I like went in and it was just like okay well now I'm gonna show that I am capable of playing a lot more characters because I also do that on stage she went in like a sniper truly she went in like a over

ops highly trained assassin yes I don't know why I'm making it violent it was like a over ops a highly trained assassin yes i don't know why i'm making it violent it was like a like if mr bean got hired as an assassin and just accidentally shooting the right person johnny english yeah but i think ben's run on drag race is really remarkable because there was such a clear threshold between the persona and drag and the confessional workroom, real grounded Ben, you know, like that was what always sort of struck me when I was was that I was like, God, like she really has such control and a toggle over these two people and both of them feel honest. I wouldn't say authentic. I don't really know what

that means when I say that word, but honest versions of the same person. character like that is like that sort of outlook is not sustainable which is why all of my pessimism uh is reserved for uh out of drag experiences sure then you become like lady gaga and you're like i was this i am this like there is no separation between well and that's kind of where we're at and we talk about this all the time as ourselves and in our collaboration what's really really funny is that dayla and jinx i mean we both possess multitudes we both possess aspects that like are attributed to either of us but it's so funny to hear dayla say that um her character is so contained in optimism and all of her pessimism exists in her real life. Whereas for me, I get all of my demons out on stage. And then my day to day persona is this bubbly over the top,

optimistic, like, let's turn everything into a game. I mean, part of that's just me. Those are my coping mechanisms. So I don't fall back into alcoholism but also it's just who we naturally are you know like she it's so funny that like on stage i'm the ren and she's the stimpy and then off stage she's the burt and i'm the ernie you know like we kind of flip-flop back and forth oh that's interesting and i mean that in all contexts. Right. Yeah, I identify with that. I find that my day-to-day, especially in developing my persona for my own special and my own Christmas show and the things that I do, I've come to realize I'm much colder on stage as the persona I play and much more like I smile a lot less. You know what I mean? Even sometimes I'll look at my own social media. I'll black out and I'll look back at it. persona I play and like much more like a smile a lot less, you know what I mean? Like sometimes,

even sometimes I'll look at my own social media, like I'll black out and I'll look back at it. And I'm like, I am projecting someone who sometimes I, and I guess that's like a struggle, right? Like as someone who's like public and trying to be an artist, but also like has like a podcast and gives people a glimpse into their real life it's like you don't always have a hold on like what you're projecting and who you are like that that's tough to manage and then to see it sort of edited down by someone else in a reality show has to be and then critiqued on that premise has to be such a mind fuck like because i know it is for me just like in trying to have a career without cameras following it and then being like yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put this together in the edit. Well, I'm staying on my meds and drinking plenty of diet.

It's a beautiful song. Maria Bamford. Gorgeous music. You're welcome. Yeah. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are back. I love that. I love that.

Oh, my gosh. Welcome. And last season's drama was just the tip of the iceberg. You're recording us? I am disgusted. Never in a million years after everything we've been through did I think that you would reach out to our sworn enemy. We were friends. How could you do this to me? I don't trust her. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City,

Wednesdays at nine on Bravo or stream it on City TV Plus. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. My latest episode is with Jelly Roll. This episode is one of the most honest and raw interviews I've ever had. We go deep into Jelly Roll's life story from being in and out of prison from the age of 13 to being one of today's biggest artists. We talk about guilt, shame, body image, and huge life transformations. I was a desperate, delusional dreamer,

and the desperate part got me in a lot of trouble. I encourage delusional dreamers. Be a delusional dreamer. Just don't be a desperate, delusional dreamer. I just had such an anger. I was just so mad at life. Everything that wasn't right was everybody's fault but mine. I had such a victim mentality.

I took zero accountability for anything in my life. I was the kid that if you asked what happened, I immediately started with everything but me. It took years for me to break that, like years of work. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. I felt too seen.

Dragged. I'm NK, and this is Basket Case. So I basically had what back in the day they would call a nervous breakdown. I was crying and I was inconsolable. It was just very big, sudden swaps of different meds. What is wrong with me? Oh, look at you giving me therapy, girl. Finally, a show for the mentally ill girlies.

On Basket Case, I talk to people about what happens when what we call mental health is shaped by the conditions of the world we live in. Because if you haven't noticed, we are experiencing some kind of conditions that are pretty hard to live with. But if you struggle to cope, the society that created the conditions in the first place will tell you there's something wrong with you and it will call you a basket case listen to basket case every tuesday on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts we have to ask you both the question which is what was the culture that made you say culture was for me? Ben, let's start with you. I have really been overthinking this, which is...

No such thing. That makes sense with the character. That is my MO. I talk about a lot of the same touch that like over and over again in interviews, I like talk about the same stuff. I was really thinking about what's my angle here. And I think that the first time I remember being like deeply affected by a piece of media in a way that like rattled my core was Labyrinth.

It was, you know, it was so like campy and over the top and like a musical, but like, right. So much of my sensibility, I think early on was sort of the things where some sort of reality and some sort of cartoon or puppet element crossover, like Who Framed Roger Rabbit was like a huge deal for me. Pee Wee's Playhouse, which is that kind of dynamic.

But Labyrinth, man, just like shook me because I was I mean, I think I was like seven or something. And it was so playful and fun and like magical, but also so sexy in a way that I was not prepared for and that I was so like excited, but also deeply upset by. Yeah. Just sort of understanding myself. And that's very alluring. You know, there's that thing. You're like, what is that? Well, and I think it's maybe also the first time I am just sort of understanding myself. And that's very alluring.

You know, there's that thing. You're like, what is that? Well, and I think it's maybe also the first time that you're like, oh, a piece of media can like reach real deep inside you to things that you don't even know. I mean, I obviously was not thinking about that at seven. But when I like reflect on it, the way that it can touch parts of you that you are unaware of. Right.

Yeah, that's why I say that the movie Beauty and the Beast is responsible for my foot fetish. Why? Gaston with the toe out. Because deeply in the picture, you don't even have to think about it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They probably smelled like exactly what you want. Was that your gateway to David Bowie as well?

Yes, yes, yes yes 100 and then i uh i became just absolutely obsessed it was actually it was my mom who brought home that vhs of labyrinth and she was just sort of she put it in sort of knowingly and watched it with me and she was there was some part of her that was like i think this is gonna speak to you and then afterwards i just like burst into tears and it was like you know that was not, I think this is going to speak to you. And then afterwards, I just burst into tears. And it was like, you know, that was not a conversation we were having, but it was very much in retrospect,

her being like, okay, like, I see you, you know. But yeah, no, afterwards, like being able to sort of more fully dive into everything else that David Bowie has been was definitely, that set me off on a path for sure. David Bowie too, that's, I me off on a path for sure. David Bowie, too. That's I would also maybe even connect that to you, like gravitating towards drag because David Bowie was in essence a drag queen. I mean, he was everything. Oh, absolutely.

It also launched me into the Jim Henson universe, which is also full of drag queens like miss piggy and janice and all these other you know frank oz playing all of these amazing archetypal women yes so yeah from all angles it it combined every element of that excellent answer because every strand really goes back to that thing or to labyrinth for you where it it's the beam of light that refracts into all these things that you do now which is beautiful yeah and there's a million other touchstones along the way but that's the first time i remember just being truly shattered by something wow in a good way in a good way yeah and also the like bizarre glamour you know like it's glam but it's also fucked well and it's sexy and it's fun but it's also like deeply it's like getting into like fears and like id and like all sorts of you know it's

uh it's speaking to sort of serious and complex emotions and fears you know and i like that i like when something is really silly and campy and sparkly and draws you in and then uh kind of one two punches you with something else yeah we don't have enough of that stuff now we really don't i think the last thing i can really imagine speaking of duos that like went for it in like a stylized way that you can see i in watching it i was like people that see this that are young and don't really know themselves yet might really find themselves in this as like Barb and Star. Oh my god. Oh yeah. Such an incredible movie. Jinx and I watched that like within

24 hours of each other and could not shut up about it. Anyone who doesn't like that movie doesn't know movies. It's amazing. Why are we not seeing drag queens? I don't want to say who the villain is. Why have we not seen more drag queens cosplaying that villain? Oh my god, you're so right you're right you're right you're right it's an incredible reference yeah just the soda the soda stream in the beginning i knew we were off to the races

oh and it was beautiful the way that it really like spoke to sort of this amazing journey of these women in middle age kind of finding themselves and reassessing. And it was such an amazing way to get into that. And that's what I love about camp in general. It just sort of breadcrumbs you down a road and then you can do anything with it and you can keep it silly or you can really go somewhere. But people, all their armor is down when they've been dazzled by some like bright colors and some goofy jokes. God, you're so right. It is breadcrumbs when it comes to

delivering camp. I think we all can recognize it at this point in the culture, but to make it, it is this thing where you leave crumbs, and then once you fully have the audience in the pocket of that, you can do literally anything and we will be along for the ride. There can be a crab that comes along along and speaks in morgan freeman's voice you know like

oh my god speaking of which and this is something that jinx and i sort of like always think about in our shows is that we have like this sort of heart that we want to get people to that we really want them to feel vulnerable and so we use a lot of dick jokes to get there but also puppetry having the drag the the crab like deliver that message i always i actually always use puppets to talk about the most like i did a show like a million years ago about um it was it was about like american history and i used a bald eagle puppet to address slavery and genocide because that's the only you know what i mean it's like if you only delivery system that like the audience will like tolerate because they're like oh it's a silly puppet giving this heavy heavy

message yes yeah totally oh and we do that in the show as well right except usually our puppets are villains yeah oh right because it was the it was the bar cart. Yeah. So in the special, it's the ghost of my dead grandmother in a glass of eggnog. And she's sort of like racist and homophobic. Yeah. And we've used that a lot. We had a transphobic gingerbread man on one of our, that was like furious that we were not necessarily going to assign the male like through bow ties and like signifiers like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We were angry about that. I'm curious about what other touchstones there were though. Because you overthought it, I do want to know where else your brain went. Like along the way, there's a lot of like Elvira, Pee Wee Herman, characters who I really love that they never broke.

They would go on like a late night talk show and they would not reveal the person behind them, which is something I was sad about Drag Race sort of losing is that this like thirst to see the person behind the character and we've lost that thing of people who just never allow

you to know them, which makes you believe in their characters in a way that's... Why would we be able to believe that Elvira is a person human, like moving through the world? But Cassandra Peterson has convinced us of that. Like we be able to believe that Elvira is a person human but like moving through the world but Cassandra Peterson has convinced us of that like we bought it right yeah in a way that was like speaking to like the child in us and all sorts of stuff and then I don't know fast forward and uh when I saw the wig stock documentary that was really when I was like, oh, click, click, click, all these sensibilities, drag is part of this.

Totally. And that's where I really was able to say, oh, all these things that I am already drawn to or that I already am, there's a container for that. And it's this thing called drag. And that's how you get to incorporate all of it. That is drag. Drag is the clock.

And then everything else is sort of the gear and the hand and all that. I can't think of a modern equivalent to an Elvira or a Peewee, like someone who will not break on it. No, because we're obsessed with knowing who everyone is. Does Pete Davidson know?

I don't know, Jake. I don't know about that. But I was going to bring up again, just because Matt and I were on a Jiminy Glick kick recently and Jiminy Glick oh it's it's so ridiculous and there are problematic aspects to jiminy glick obviously but like there's something really pretty brilliant about martin short just like staying in that zone and having jiminy glick be the delivery system for his most vile toxic mean rude thoughts and he would just insult his guests, you know? You know who is maybe our closest thing is Stephen Colbert.

Sure. Yeah, totally. Totally. Like less so now, but. Right. And Amy Sedaris has built, like even just her out of Jerry Blank drag, like by creating At Home With Amy Sedaris, she's created a version of herself that is Amy

Sedaris, but also a heightened, you know, clown form of her. You know, what's funny is I completely agree with Dayla. And also, I think there's something very powerful about just us talking about ourselves and talking about our lives. You know, like, I really did miss the anonymity that I gave up when I did Drag Race. Like, I used to be able to be Jinx and then get out of drag and no one knew who I was in Seattle. I mean, like the, the more popular I got within the drag scene, um, the less that was, but like, I still was able to like go places out of drag and just be a human being. And that's kind of gone from me now, but to know that people who resonate with the stories that I've, you know, been very candid with, to know that that inspires them and helps them in the same way that drag queens did that for me. It might be like through different forms, you know, but like people are drawing inspiration

from me the same way I drew inspiration from Lady Bunny and Coco Peru and, you know, the old guard of drag, the generation that paved this path for me. So, it's give and take. I'm okay with it, is the thing. It's like, I'm okay. And I still do what I love to do and they assign meaning to it. I always say, listen, I'm really, really happy to pay it forward. If me getting on stage and telling a bunch of satirical dick jokes makes you feel more seen, then it's a win-win for both of us. Jinx Monsoon, what about you? The culture that made you say culture was for you? I'm going to weave a tale of many things that have all fit together jackie weaver

over here but i think my my answer is larping live action role playing oh my goodness now in middle school all of my friends were mormons but i didn't know what mormons were but um these were portland mormons were. But these were Portland Mormons. So they were very liberal Mormons. And their favorite things were the King Arthur Legends and Rocky Horror Picture Show. Oh, wow. And so we did a lot of...

Yeah, we did a lot of... We would put on the soundtrack and act out the soundtrack. That happened a lot of, we would put on the soundtrack and act out the soundtrack. That happened a lot. We all had nicknames based off of characters in the King Arthur legends. I was Queen Guinevere. Naturally. And then I was a grade below or two grades below most of the friends in this group. So their eighth grade graduation, after the last day of school, we went to a park and LARPed for like three hours.

And I guess the reason why this is so important to me is because it was this moment of realizing that if you are just honest about having an interest in something you might find people yes who share that interest even if it's the dorkiest interest you something you would never want to even reveal about yourself but if you find a way to safely reveal that you might find people who share the interest and like i sincerely loved dressing up in renaissance gear and running around in this park with my friends and pretending i was a shapeshifter i had this um perrier bottle that i had peeled the labels off of and it was my shape-shifting potion it led to me cracking my tooth oh because they're so hard those bottles oh yeah someone don't you hate it to me it broke my tooth and um i used to lie and say it was a skateboarding

accident because i didn't want to admit that it was from live action role play but you know when i think about that i'm like that just showed me that like there are people in the world who want to play make believe with you and then it wasn't long after that i saw my first drag show it wasn't long after that that i started doing drag and that was just like those are the breadcrumbs of leading to me being me and then i think about um the dresden dolls and amanda palmer the dresden band of my youth that was like, not a band that my parents listened to when I found myself. And it was like so very much, it was the exact kind of music I had always been waiting for. Then Amanda Palmer became this big icon to me. Amanda Palmer's gone on to do such amazing things. She's continued to be this icon. We got to do a duet together. She put out a book and a TED Talk. So if you can't read, you can listen to the TED Talk. But it's called The Art of Asking. And that's how I started this whole rant.

But The Art of Asking. It's just the concept that if you are honest with the world about what it is you need or what it is you're looking for, then you might find people who want to give it to you and who might not ask for anything in return. They might just be looking for someone to give this thing to, but you'll never know until you ask. So, I think we've been conditioned to think that we have to do everything on our own. And if you need help from others, or if you need to ask help from others or if you need to ask for help or if you need to ask for assistance or you're searching for people with similar interests, then you're somehow weak or less apt or less like fit for the world. But Amanda Palmer says, nah, there are just times when if you ask, you can receive. And it's as simple as that wow that's wonderful i

love that between the dresden dolls and larping i think there's this shared thing of like aesthetics where like listen i never larped but i would do this thing i was like squarely in the eighth grade let's say um going to chinese school on sundays and what i would do with the kids in like the fifth grade who were around these like all the chinese kids kind of like were in the same soup or whatever and then we all like went outside and i would lead these like this weird high fantasy like adventure where i was the dark lord and these kids had to chase me down and fight me with their spells but the thing is we we didn't have costumes and so between the dresden dolls and you larping as guinevere with your potion like you had costumes and props and i feel like the dresden dolls were this group who like embraced this like fusion of cabaret and punk and so like it was steampunk cabaret punk punk

it was also like very queer even though they were a male and a female and but like i would venture that amanda palmer identifies as queer and they exuded it at a time when i wasn't seeing a lot of queerness in media i was assigning queerness to things right you know remember when we didn't used to get to see ourselves on tv so we had to find ourselves i've always found myself in the most random of places like um magica dispel on right duck tales remember that freaking freaking duck? Her hair is gorgeous. That black bob. It's why little queer kids are always choosing who they choose in video games.

You know what I mean? I think it's a much more mainstream instinct than people realize that they want to disappear into something. I mean, even little kids when they're playing like Manhunt, you know, there's this fantasy they're playing about hunting and being you know, there's this fantasy they're playing about, about hunting and being hunted that they do in a safe way

or like with video games or even in school. I remember my favorite things were where, I remember when I was in eighth grade, we were going to reenact the Boston Massacre trial and I was John Adams, the lawyer. And it was my favorite thing because I would write these long, long speeches to give in front of the jury. And I remember, I think people were afraid of how hard I was committing to it.

And I was really willing to commit to it because I think they were like, it wasn't cool to commit to it. It seemed gay to commit to this thing. So they didn't vote for me at the end. And I remember I did not win the trial. This is an trial. It was really like that. It was very overdrawn. And I'm telling you, my closing argument to the jury was like 10 pages. And I'll never forget my teacher, Mr. Topagna pulled me over to the side and he said, I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done. And I want you to give me that because it's one of the best things I've had written in my class. And he saw that I tried hard and committed it

and wanted to live out the fantasy. And it's like that thing where you see a kid wanting to live out fantasy and other like their peers, like stomp it out a little bit. And there is that instinct, I think, to stomp out creativity and stomp out like imagination.

And we see it now more than ever because of fear and because maybe that you'll look stupid if you try to do the same thing but i really appreciated that someone in my life encouraged that like i said i do think like if we all were more in touch with our inner children we all would be doing more things like that because it's fantasy it's imagination it's fun it doesn't have to be scary or weird you know yeah it's interesting. It's imagination. It's fun. It doesn't have to be scary or weird. You know, it's interesting that it's niche because it's actually so universal. I think it's why video games are like such a big part of our culture. And we're talking a lot about queerness in video games.

And I think video game developers are having to realize that they have a huge queer audience because I don't think people realized it. But like video games were a safe space for queer kids because you could play by yourself. And just like you were saying, you choose characters and especially nowadays you can customize this character. So who cares who you are in your day to day life? You can be who you want to be in video games and no one has to know and so that's why this kind of representation is important but i think we should just find ways to make life more like video games we should just let people be their avatars in their day-to-day life without judgment i mean alok v menon sorry i know i'm on such a tangent right now but alok is always talking about the reason why

people try to squash out that creativity is because they're afraid and you were just saying fear but it's like it's fear of two things it's fear of someone else living that kind of freedom and having to reconcile that they're being free and realizing that you're not free. And so, having to admit that you've been living under this like brainwashed conditioning your whole life. And if you wanted to, you could actually be free of that. But then also the fear of like, what would that feel like to let all the rules go and let go of everything we've been taught and just actually live authentically like that's terrifying for some people and queer people we're just used to being terrified so we go for it right yeah yeah yeah i think that's true it's very hard and scary to live your life open to things and

taking risks because you get hurt you know like especially like when that's intrinsically who you are and who you want to be you know especially like living that's intrinsically who you are and who you want to be you know especially like living in a world where you are told in a macro sense like you don't fit in here and so then then you're like alone with yourself and you think well at a certain point i look back and i think that actually was a gift because i'm like well if i don't belong here let me look around for where i do belong and then it's the asking of it all that you mentioned. It is the finding of community. And then you find your, you know, Bowen Yang to you or your Ben to you or your Jinx to you.

And like you feel encouraged and you feel more like yourself through community. Absolutely. I mean, I think that as queer people, we spend a lot of childhood like waiting for adulthood and then explode into an extreme, right? Because it's been getting pent up for all that time. And I think one of the beautiful things about the video game aspect is that we just had to wait until we had access to anything that could

help us present ourselves the way that we see ourselves or that we had like a safe environment where we could present ourselves in the way that we see ourselves and now there is this outlet for queer kids to have some of that you know one of my favorite this is actually i'm sorry this is a tangent but one of my favorite things to ever be on snl is uh wells for boys oh my god i think it was a watershed moment actually I mean I think that was like a huge deal that was so explicitly intrinsically deeply queer that was just a way that I've seen myself reflected in

media that I have not seen before but I really you know I think a lot of us that's the thing is we just like sit around and wait to be grown up so that we can do anything about it and then of course we're just going to be like totally balls to the wall by the time we get there totally i think i am trying to maybe connect too many dots here but i think like the thing the thing from dayla the thing from jinx about these these cultural touchstones is that like aesthetics matter in that it is what communicates it is the medium

of communication for people that i think that's why like i always say like it's not shallow to like care about the way you look even if it goes against a beauty standard even if it goes if it goes along with the beauty standard it's like it's important because it might actually play into like a gender expression or another kind of expression but then i think it's also the reason why not to bring this into the chat but like the drag bands are like all of a sudden very prolific is because drag ends up being the most aesthetically impactful thing across the board and so it's the thing that like stokes fear in certain people who think well this is the most dire dangerous thing that's going on right now even though it does not pose any threat to them.

But it's only because there's this aesthetic quality to drag that, like, says so much without really saying anything verbally or orally. Does that make sense? It's like what we were talking about earlier about, like, you get to start from a more honest place with new people that you meet. Right. place with new people that you meet. Like, my life has improved so much now that I've started presenting as the way that I feel inside, because people call me ma'am rather than sir,

and so I respond joyfully rather than cranky. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, aesthetic presentation can be more important than just you know vanity or it's not all about ego no it is also about having a conversation without words well and drag i think i mean i think it's also scary to people in general but right now obviously there's a lot happening with drag right now in our country

that's like bizarrely high profile i still it feels surreal to me but it also feels so familiar right it's like i think a lot of people are reacting to it in this way where it's like whoa who could have seen this and i'm like i think most of us you know and it started there like that's it was recent history that drag was regarded in this way and And I think it's because it's like, it is the aesthetics about claiming power. It's about being the most powerful person in the room. And that's huge. And that's what it was in like ball culture in Paris is burning. It was being like, okay, we're not rich and straight, but we can still claim that power in these spaces.

And now we're in all the spaces. And of course, it's terrifying to people. Yeah. Yeah. Fear controls people. And imagine being like a God-fearing person who's been taught that feels that way. And then hearing someone like RuPaul saying,

I am God in drag. You know what I mean? And suddenly there's hundreds of, I guess what Ru would call monsters running around being God and drag. And then that idea, even if you are not a drag queen or have an instinct to do drag, I remember how revolutionary it was for me to hear that there actually were not limits. That is when my comedy really broke open. And I have to credit like the popularity of drag race

for showing me someone in my 20s who was very much doing this sort of straight drag in my comedy until I realized there was like an empowering thing about really taking your queerness and putting it out there. I mean, it was this weird time in my life. And I think I'm speaking for Bowen too, which was like drag race becoming huge. Our friends Josh Sharp and Aaron Jackson like performing at UCB, which is like drag race becoming huge our friends josh sharp and aaron jackson like performing at uh ucb which is like a very hetero institution at the time and then being so unapologetically their faggot selves you know what i mean like like and i just like it's it's this idea like oh wow i actually don't have limits and i don't think I would do anything that I do now if that message hadn't

been delivered to me. And so, for queer people to be given this powerful message and this powerful tool and to realize, like, don't listen to the naysayers and all these things, like, of course that's going to be scary for people that want control desperately because they're afraid. Yeah. But now that you've mentioned it i will say that i've seen videos of your ucb characters your upright citizens you have i've seen um what was this um the batman villain yeah that was one of my favorites the most unpredictable batman villain of all time where they didn't have an identity or like they basically were everything everywhere all at once if if you were.

And that would make them actually predictable. Because if you think about these Batman villains, it's like, okay, so they're the Joker. You know there's going to be a card. You know it's probably going to be the thing opposite of what they say. Like, we really could kill the Joker if we wanted to. I get that Gotham has to run and be afraid. But, you know, the Riddler,

let's just get someone who's good at riddles on the case. Get someone who's... Get Mama who's good at Wordle to come in here and you know, the Riddler, let's just get someone who's good at riddles on the case. Get someone who's, get Mama who's good at Wordle to come in here and we can kill the Riddler. The Penguin, honey, I don't know, turn up the heat. Wow. Speaking of Wordle, we are boycotting the time, so. So, let's bring that up there.

Listen, Wordle was, if you played Wordle for more than two weeks, and I use this word pejoratively, you're a fucking nerd. You're a nerd. Haven't we already established a love of nerddom in this conversation,

though? I'm choosing in this instance to use it pejoratively and to actually weaponize that word. Sure, as a queer person, you have that option. Absolutely. And I was using faggot pejoratively against Justin Aaron, too, I want to say. Aaron Jackson, what a great person. I've known Aaron for ages. And I have had the biggest crush on them my entire knowing them.

But I, the times, the times, I felt horrible because I was introducing Sam Lansky to a group of people. And I always love to brag about my friends. And I was like, Sam Lansky, New group of people and I always love to brag about my friends and I was like, Sam Lansky, New York Times best seller, but who gives a fuck what the New York Times think? You could say Goodreads legend Sam Lansky,

but we don't support Amazon. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City are back. I love that. I love that. Oh, my gosh. Welcome. And last season's drama was just the tip of the iceberg. You're recording us?

I am disgusted. Never in a million years after everything we've been through did I think that you would reach out to our sworn enemy. We were friends. How could you do this to me? I don't trust her. The Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Wednesdays at 9 on Bravo.

Or stream it on City TV+. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty and I'm the host of On Purpose. My latest episode is with Jelly Roll. This episode is one of the most honest and raw interviews I've ever had. We go deep into Jelly Roll's life story from being in and out of prison from the age of 13 to being one of today's biggest artists. We talk about guilt, shame, body image, and huge life transformations. I was a desperate, delusional dreamer.

And the desperate part got me in a lot of trouble. I encourage delusional dreamers. Be a delusional dreamer. Just don't be a desperate, delusional dreamer. I just had such an anger. I was just so mad at life. Everything that wasn't right was everybody's fault but mine. I had such a victim mentality. I took zero accountability for anything in my life. I was the kid that if you asked what happened, I immediately started with everything but me. It took years for me to break that, like years of work. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me,

you won't want to miss this one. Call it what it is. You may know us from Graceland Memorial, but did you know that we are actually besties in real life? And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and lows of life together. And what does that look like? A thousand pep talks. A million I've got yous. Some very urgent I'm coming numbers. Because, I don't know, let's face it, life can get even crazier than a season finale of Grey's Anatomy. And now here we are, opening up the friendship circle. To you. Someone's cheating.

We've got you on that. In-laws are in-lying. Let's get into it. Toxic friendship. Air it out. We're on your side to help you with your concerns. Talk about ours. And every once in a while, bring on an awesome guest

to get their take on the things that you bring us. While we may be unlicensed to advise, we're going to do it anyway. Listen to Call It What It Is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think we are moving very sort of naturally into our segment called I Don't Think So Honey, because there's not a bigger I Don't Think So Honey than the New York Times right now. But this is our 60 second segment where we take something in pop culture and we sort of absolutely rage against it because it needs to be raged against. Mine's a little alt this week, but as a result of my ticket buying spree when I'm high, I've realized

something about myself and I would like to pop off. Interesting. This is Matt Rogers' I Don't Think So Honey. His time starts now. I Don't't think so honey me during a broadway show i'm not watching the story i'm watching the butts especially when i'm in the front row at chicago i am looking at your butt i'm sorry if you're a dancer in a broadway show i'm looking at your butt it's sort of like it's something i can't control and the garments that my guys are wearing, like, oh my gosh. The sheer. It's happening at Some Like It Hot. It's happening at Chicago.

It's happening over here, over there. It's happening at N Juliet. 30 seconds. It's happening at, I'm going to see a doll's house with Jessica Chastain. Bad Cinderella. It's going to be happening there. It's happening at Bad Cinderella. It's one of the only things happening at Bad Cinderella.

Just kidding. So much is happening at Bad Cinderella, and I think I had the time of my life watching it, but I'm still processing. Sure. Broadway boys, get in the DMs, reach out. At the very least, I can make you laugh. Five seconds. Eat your ass. Let's have a good time.

Let's have a drink and a twirl about the room. I don't think so, honey me. And that's one minute. Lovely. And speaking of Broadway asses I would say Jinx that suit really fits you nicely the suit fits me nicely the ass is fake oh it is?

that's my foam drag ass silly that's my foam drag ass that's real culture number 30 that's my foam drag ass silly just the most gorgeous people in the world in broadway ensembles i mean it's just so happy for all of them too because it does feel

like an exciting time on broadway again like i went to go see obviously you in chicago and it felt like you know afterwards we were lucky enough when you popped out got to meet lana gordon who's playing oh my god and even she was saying like the energy has been so great i mean like and and like to hear about the houses being filled in the way that they have with you with you like that's amazing not only for you and for broadway but also for these incredibly talented people who don't always get receptions like that or excited audiences like that who really deserve it because this is to even get one of these jobs and to keep one of these jobs is such a feat and like just so kudos to all of them and they're gorgeous absolutely i will keep

this brief but it's a really queer time on broadway right now Lots of shows are. It's true. And it's about fucking time. I'll say this because it was kind of astounding. I saw Take Me Out, which you probably heard about for Jesse Tyler's Tony winning performance in it, but also full frontal male nudity. Both with Chicago

and with Take Me Out, there was a thing that drew queer audiences in. Full frontal male nudity, drag queen on stage. So there was a hook that lured audiences in. Then once they were in Take Me Out, it was a profoundly beautiful show. It was so good. It was confronting. It was honest.

It was magnificently performed. Chicago, like you were saying, Lana Gordon and Charlotte D'Amboise are gay icons. They are gay icons who have been playing these roles for years and are finally getting to play these roles in front of queer audiences who are going to respect the

work that they're doing and the level that they're doing it at in a way that their straight audiences might not have access to. So everything you just said, yes, yes, yes, Broadway very queer, it always has been, but now we're being unapologetic about it. Yeah, and I do just want to tag onto that, like, I

mentioned that I saw these shows, just excellent. And there's also in Some Like It Hot and N. Juliet, there are explicit trans narratives in them, that it, like, and to see that in more than one show on Broadway right now, not even just queer, it's really exciting. And I found myself looking around and everyone really receiving it and watching it. And I just think about when I was a little kid

seeing Hairspray on Broadway, that that was such a revolutionary thing at the time. And to the progression on that and to see it really happening in Broadway theater like, you know, kudos and I've been having a really amazing time seeing all these shows Alright, Bowen Yang, are you ready for your I Don't Think So Honey? I'm ready

I'm ready and I don't know how this will be received I feel this way though You feel this way? I do I do. Well if you feel it, you need to speak it. Okay. Bowen, this is your I don't think so, honey. Your time starts now. I don't think so, honey.

The words macaroon, macaron, and macaroni, language fails us all the time. These are three things that are completely different from each other, and yet they share the same root word. Yes, they really do. It doesn't make any sense. These are things that cannot be interchanged for each other, and yet they share the same root word. Yes, they really do. It doesn't make any sense. These are things that cannot be interchanged for each other. Maybe a macaroon and a macaron can be interchanged for each other. They're both sweet, lovely, delectable desserts. Nice girls. They're not the same thing. And I actually don't like it when people refer to a French

macaron as a macaroon. There's no coconut. There's no almond. Carelessly tossing this term around. Words matter, and yet words fail us. It is a terrible conundrum we are in as English speakers. I truly mourn the loss of other languages in an era of globalization, in an era when every person on earth is expected to know some English, when they have gorgeous mother tongues that can more readily wield these three different foods with different terms. Macaroni, macaroon, macaron, different things entirely. And that's one minute.

My girl said era of globalization. It's true. It's true. I mean, you say something subversive, which is that I think a macaron is disgusting and I'm really upset when somebody offers me a macaroon and it isn't.

You go like this, get out of here. Get out of here. Because a macaroon is it isn't. Why? You go like this. Get out of here. Get out of here. Because a macaroon is delectable. I feel the opposite, Ben. Well, we're Jack Spratt and his wife. We're going to polish them all off. I love macaroni. I love macaroni, too. I love it. I always forget when someone says macaroni

that they don't necessarily mean elbow. But I think of elbow macaroni when I think of macaroni, but it could literally be any tubular pasta. Let's just, I didn't know that. Yeah. I'm learning so much here. I always,

any tubular pasta, macaroni. Yes. Any tubular pasta is a macaroni. It's a square rectangle sort of thing. So penne is macaroni. Penne is considered macaroni. If next time you go, I don't think so, honey. If you go and buy penne is macaroni? Penne is considered macaroni. Next time you go... I don't

think so, honey. If you go and buy penne at the store, you're gonna see macaroni on the box. That's what it is. I don't think so. It's very confusing. You're telling me rigatoni is macaroni. Forget it. It's square rectangle. Wow. That might have to be a rule of culture. What?

That every tubular pasta is macaroni. And what number was that again? Seven. It's rule of culture what that every tubular pasta is macaroni and what number was that again seven it's rule of culture number seven every tubular pasta is macaroni rigatoni is macaroni penne is macaroni i'm horrified by this but i respect it's crazy isn't that jarring and it really freaks me out if i think too hard about it macaroons are not macro macaron and neither of them are macaroni and yet they all sound so similar and when yankee doodle stuck a feather in his hat he called it macaroni oh my god i didn't even think of yankee doodle you know ben i identify with you being scared about the new information and fearful but remember that

you know jennifer lewis once looked me in the eyes on this podcast and she said, we can be scared, but we must not be unafraid. So take this information in and move forth. I think we should start with a Ben de la Creme. I don't think so, honey. What do you say? Wow. I love it. This is the moment in time.

Are you ready? I'm down. Mine is also language based. Oh, amazing. Perfect. This is Ben de la Creme's I Don't Think So, Honey. Your time starts now. I don't think so, honey, with the de-evolution of the

English language through TikTok. I cannot handle the POV situation. That is not a POV. POV of me eating a french fry is a fistful of french fries. It is not a picture of me eating french fries. It makes me furious. I do not like this no one colon thing.

I understand that it started a certain way, but it devolved into, we don't need everything to start with no one colon. We know that no one said anything that is implicit in leaving it alone. I come from the greatest generation of overusing like and misusing ironic and literally. I feel good about that.

I think we should stop it there. I think it's getting too rapid and too out of control. Chaotic is meaningless. I want to hear no more chaotic. Everybody learn what POV is and stop putting your memes in like four different fonts. Just write a new meme. That is what we need. And I don't think so, honey, about any of this de-evolution.

And that's one minute. I knew you were the Bowen. Oh my God. I mean, isn't it funny? Bowen is Ben. Girl, I see you. I have always identified as the De La. Just especially in the confessionals.

I'm like, God. I was like, I could listen to this person just talk and talk. Not that that's a means of identification, but I'm just like, oh, I love this person. Truly, truly. Because that's how a means of identification, but I'm just like, oh, I love this person. Truly, truly. Because that's how Bowen's brain works.

No, no, no, no, no. But that was a perfect, I don't think so, POV is, the usage is completely bastardized. It's crazy. It's so upsetting. Particularly by really, really attractive people who honestly should be trying harder. Yes, agreed.

But then that kills it for me. I'm like no boner gone it's not gonna work and no one colon yes it is just at this point a means to like set up a thought that did not need the setup no no it's it's extraneous why we can't both completely stop using language correctly and not think about economy of language. If you're going to be bad at using words, use fewer words.

Thank you. Oh my God. And actually, I used to be- That's a great note. That's a great note. I used to be very- Global note. Global note.

I used to be very, very, very hard on people misusing literally. But I think at this point, the word has sort of like taken on an additional meaning, which is just saying something is emphatic. Agreed. It's also, I mean, I grew up on literally and the Alanis Morissette, you know,

cultural confusion around irony and what that means. Yes, yes. And I just feel, you know, to me, that's grandfathered in. I understand that's generational. I was listening to a podcast that I recorded the other day, and the amount that I used like,

and I always overuse like, but in this one, it was every other word. It's infuriating when you catch yourself doing that. Yeah. I'm just saying, everybody, give yourself a little bit of grace because guess what? You go back and watch any of my talk show appearances,

you will be stunned at how often light gets thrown in there. And I've just learned to accept it. It's okay. People still understand what I'm saying. I forgive it in others. And I am working on giving myself the same grace. Janine Garofalo, when she came on this podcast, her I don't think so honey was

people saying like a lot and we were kind of just sitting there like, oh, so she has never listened to this. She got booked on this and thought, oh yeah, I'll do it. I have the afternoon free. Had she listened to this podcast, she would never come on because she doesn't respect us. She doesn't respect us and that's okay.

I have always felt very strongly about grammar and punctuation and respecting language and stuff and then and then also there is classism in that right like it's been pointed out to me that being like a gatekeeper and not like listening to someone because of the way they speak is inherently classist. I do, though, think that if you want to be a content creator using language as a medium, you should have respect for it, right? I mean, there's got to be some middle ground, but I mean, I don't want to be classist, but I also want to understand what people are saying to me. I feel horrible sometimes when it's like a typo will really throw me off because I'm like, is this a typo because it's a typo? Is this a new abbreviation I don't understand?

Is this a new phrase that's being used? Maybe I'm just just maybe it's more my problem than anything i don't want to be classist about this but i am perfectly fine with being ageist young people are bad at a lot of things and that i am okay with saying out loud yeah this is this is the perfect kind of ageism are you ready old people are bad young people are also bad the perfect age is the age that i am yes that's it yes it's an equal opportunity it was a crime when my father felt that way but now i that i am my father's age isn't that funny though when you start to become that person

that's like that literally is like these kids you know what i mean like i think it started with like i don't know i guess like when i didn't and i'm just gonna bravely say this when i really didn't get the billy eilish thing at first i was like huh i was like wait what like it's because i i really didn't get it and so so famous like like ubiquitous like parents know who she is and there i was being like like a cranky about it and now it is when i was cranky about tiktok too at first now i think it's fun and goofy and i laugh my little ass off when i'm on it but like the ways in which like it felt like it accelerated past you you know what i mean like that's what it is and yeah but but it's it's funny to become like

yeah get off my lawn. I'm having this thing where I like, I have learned a lot of things from young people. I have learned a lot of new ways of thought from young people. Of course, I've learned a lot from my elders. I guess my only frustration with age groups right now is their inability for patience with one another. It's like being a queer person in my 30s, I am finding a lot of frustration in trying to get the older generation and the younger generation to have a conversation with each other.

Like they are each digging their heels in the sand in opposite directions and not across the board. You know, I know plenty of older people who are very open-minded. I know plenty of older people who are very open-minded. I know plenty of young people who are extremely mature, but I'm talking about the issue we're having in the queer community right now and have been having for a while

is old people don't want to learn new stuff because they think, I built this community. How dare you tell me there's new terms I don't know? And young people are like, but you built the community for me. So I'm telling you, this is what I want. Why aren't you respecting that? And then I'm sitting here in my 30s

wanting to have sex with everyone and saying, can't we all get along? And they're so tired from fighting. They can't get it out. And they can't get it out. And they're all mad at each other. And you just bought a wedge. You can't even put it to wedge. And I bought a wedge.

What? I can't be a slut in this modern age if people can't get along. You'll find a way to manage. Alright, so Jinx Monsoon. It's time for I Don't Think So Honey. Are you ready? And remember, never forget Jinx Monsoon judged a Lost Culture Recess I Don't Think So Honey competition at Cluster in san francisco alongside alaska thunderfuck and it was one of

the great episodes if you want to go back and listen to that episode it was the gauntlet it was won by rachel p grum and it iconically features joel kim boosters i don't think so honey after sex when you fart and a little bit of cum comes out, which he did say in front of my entire immediate family in the great city of San Francisco. And I believe it tickled our panelists. So Jinx Monsoon. And then some cum came out. And then some cum came out. Jinx Monsoon, this is your I don't think so, honey.

Your time starts now i don't think so honey about trying to blame the safety of children on drag queens when guns kill children and drag queens there you go drag queens don't kill children but i think that's preaching to the choir so i'm gonna say i don't think so honey to jinx right now you don't need to talk about that because everyone already knows what i want to talk about is i don't think so honey if you're gonna walk down the sidewalk especially in times square you gotta keep a pace moving you don't get to slow down you don't get to turn your head around and look this way while you're walking that way you don't get to walk four to a breast at a snail's pace some of us are on our way to work some of us only have an hour

long dinner break and we've got to go get new nails we got to get new lashes a new eyeliner and you are slowing us down and every minute fucking counts so if you are going to walk in new york city if you're going to walk in time square you're going to walk at a brisk pace that's just how it goes if you can't handle it get out of hell's kitchen and that's one minute god damn it you. You know, it's so funny. Like, even just spending some time in New York, like, you become this person who really is like, there's rules on the road. And in addition, there's rules about escalator etiquette. If you are standing on the left side, you have flopped.

You are doing the wrong thing. The right side is for standing. The left side of the escalator is a lane for people that want to walk up escalator if you don't know this by now you will never never never know me my fucking you i feel like there is a real heterosexual entitlement to couples holding hands on busy sidewalks you do not see queer couples standing next to each other, no matter how many people are bustling down the street, just holding hands as if it is their God-given right to block that much of the sidewalk.

Straight people are convinced that everyone should celebrate their relationships at all times. Straight people are convinced that we are all so lucky to witness their public displays of affection. And it's just not so straight people. I don't give a shit. It's single file. My partner and I walk

single file and that is part of why I love him. Thank you. Amazing. Sometimes Michael's a block ahead of me. That's partnership too. It comes in all forms. You need someone to blaze the trail. So true. And speaking of blazing the

trail, there's two legends. Legendary legends! In the Zoom, this was so, so much fun to have you both. We can't even tell you how much you've both just inspired us, made us laugh, made us scream, point at television screens and go, oh, my God. And what the fuck?

And yes. And stages across the damn country. And I'm going to imagine the world are also grateful and thankful. You're both amazing. Well, back at you, sister. Thank you so much. It's a two-way street. The feeling is abundantly mutual.

Outrageously so. I can only hope to run into you guys at airports. All three of you. Yeah, I would love to run into you at the airport, but I'd be like, where are you going? Yeah, can we coordinate like a Delta Lounge moment at some point? We're all Delta, right? No, Delta. I was just in the delta

lounge last night and they were doing a jfk well it was packed and so they were doing a lovely moment of there's not just one pasta buffet but two i said thank you i said thank you thank you i was just in jfk the other day and they did the same thing they set up that little cart right is that what you're talking about? The little noodle cart in the corner? And they have a Nathan's hot dog cart somewhere, too. That's what you need everywhere across the country. A Nathan's hot dog cart. Not just in New York, but the Delta Lounge

at LaGuardia, gotta say, top notch. Have you been to the new one in Los Angeles? I mean, it's not that new. No, it's really good. It's great. Very good. Well done, Delta. I ate barbecued ribs on a deck. There's that deck where you can watch

planes. It's beautiful. Listen, I'm on cloud nine right now because I haven't had to fly in like six weeks. And every airport is the most gender phobic place oh my god next time I do this I'm gonna do I don't think so

honey about the genderphobia the TSA security check it's outrageous well all the readers have to go you know see Jinx on Broadway in Chicago and in that spirit Bowen we end every episode of this

podcast Las Cotrices a critically acc podcast, which has been noted for the chemistry between its host and its insight into the entertainment industry with a song. Whatever happened to please may I and yes, thank you and how charming. No one even says oops. When they're passing their guests. Whatever happened to class? Class. Oh, there are no gentlemen. And listen, if you want more of that, go to the theater.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. On Thanksgiving Day, 1999, five-year-old Cuban boy Elian Gonzalez was found off the coast of Florida. And the question was, should the boy go back to his father in Cuba? Mr. Gonzalez wanted to go home and he wanted to take his son with him. Or stay with his relatives in Miami? Imagine that your mother died trying to get you to freedom.

Listen to Chess Peace, the Elian Gonzalez story, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, and I'm the host of On Purpose. My latest episode is with Jelly Roll. This episode is one of the most honest and raw interviews I've ever had. We go deep into Jelly Roll's life story from being in and out of prison from the age of 13 to being one of today's biggest artists. I was a desperate delusional dreamer. Be a delusional dreamer. Just don't be a desperate delusional dreamer. Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Trust me, you won't want to miss this one. I'm Julian Edelman. I'm Rob Gronkowski. And we are super excited to tell you about our new show, Dudes on Dudes. We're spilling all the behind-the-scenes stories, crazy details, and honestly, just having a blast talking football. Every week, we're discussing our favorite players of all times, from legends to our buddies to current stars. We're finally answering the age-old question, what kind of dudes are these dudes? We're going answering the age-old question. What kind of dudes are these dudes?

We're gonna find out, Jules. New episodes drop every Thursday during the NFL season. Listen to Dudes on Dudes on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.