Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang - "Unleashed" (w/ Dr. Orna Guralnik feat. Nico)

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

The woman who Charli XCX once proclaimed on Las Culturistas was the "sexiest woman alive" is here! Dr. Orna Guralnik, the iconic star of Couples Therapy on Paramount + with Showtime, makes her Las Cultch debut alongside her stunning Alaskan Klee Kai, Nico! The reigning winner of the Style Icon Award at the Las Culturistas Culture Awards joins Matt + Bow to discuss how every couple is like a miniature political system, navigating putting therapy on TV and avoiding the "narcissistic therapist" trope we often see on television. Also, David Lynch's Twink Peaks, the emotional work of Pina Bausch, and what Dr. Orna has seen change in same sex relationships over time. All this, insight into conversion therapy, open relationships, passive aggression and all kinds of noise (white, brown, pink, electronic ambient, etc.) Iv you're not streaming Couples Therapy, you're missing some of the most captivating and fascinating television available. Don't miss it!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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of Formation in in Health Soutenue by Sante Canada. Hey guys, it's us the Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick, and guess what?

We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. Nice. We invented a podcast. Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people

questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know, tired and sick. Tired and sick. Listen to Hey Jonas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier.

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer, Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea? that because you're from Harvard,

you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yard's. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You love me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny.

Look, Matt. Oh, I see. Wow. Bowen, look over there. Wow, is that culture? Yes. Oh, goodness. Wow.

Las cultureistas. Ding dong. Las Couturistas calling. We're sort of doing that in dulcid tones because we have not just one visitor but two. We're doubly starstruck. I don't even really remember my sort of exclamatory sound that I made when I saw Nico showing up. Nico's here. Guys,

Nico's here. I was, I can't believe this is real. And just like mom, even more striking in person. Of course. A style icon in her own right. A curiosity icon,

much like her mother. Sniffing around the room. Extremely comfortable with us. We were saying, Nico is on the couch with me in Bowen. We do have a pink bed here that Nico could use at any time. However,

it feels like she's chosen a spot and I couldn't be happier. I'm very happy with the spot. She can, I'm not out of it anytime she chooses. I'm just letting her know in English in case she can understand. Yeah, she understands.

So smart. I will say also this is giving me comfort. And I don't know if it's giving you comfort extra because it is incredibly hard not to sit across from our guest sitting next to someone you're very close to and not feel like you're in couples therapy, which, you know, rings true being that that is the name of the show. It's streaming now.

It's our favorite show. Was I the one that showed to you? You put me on it. And then, and I thank God every day for you. Yeah. And I was watching with her friend Matt Whitaker. I was watching the screeners for this season, five, and he mutters under his breath. Professional TV writer watches everything.

He goes, this is my favorite chill on TV. It is. I got Bowen into couples therapy. He took it to London. And then the whole wicked cast was like, we got to talk about Dr. Warner and what she's capable of. It's huge. I mean, this is really big for us.

She, I guess, we had some material effect. on her life. And we asked her to repeat this anecdote. Yeah. Because we're proud of this. She is our style icon Lost Culture Award winner from last year. And it's born fruit in the real fashion world.

Truly. And I'm excited to hear more. But anyway, couple's therapy, new season, May 15th. Streaming now. Streaming now. Oh, yes. It's out. Yeah.

And we're so thrilled. She asked for a pen and paper. We were like, why? Uh-oh. But then now I'm like, Well, if it happens, it happens, but we don't want to put her on this spot. Everyone welcome Dr. Ornagoran. We are so happy you're here.

Thank you for inviting me. And Nico. I'm thrilled. And Nico. Is she, she, you don't have any anxiety of having her off the leash in this space. We'll talk about that later. Oh. And your own anxieties.

No, no, no. I have no anxiety of having her off the leash. Other people have anxiety about having her off the leash. Any like people in production? Well, that was going to be my rant. Oh, okay. Well, we'll save it. We'll save it.

We'll save it. I'm glad you're asking. That was the only rant I could think of. No, that's a great rant. That's a really good rant. Okay. Now, what kinds of garments are you receiving? And can you explain to the class what your new life is?

Okay, you guys have changed my life because you've declared me a fashion icon. And since then, I've been invited to fashion shows for some ever. Did you go? I went. It was incredible. I think, incredible. Yeah. Okay.

Went to like Calvin, Chanel. I mean, incredible. Wow. Wow. No. No. The Chanel, the one, the subway. Oh, I did go to that one.

Oh, that was really a fun one. My God, that was amazing. And I get clothes from all these designers now. And I'm like, thank you. You've changed my life. Honestly, well, the thanks we could return right back because it is our favorite show. I find it's more compelling every season.

And we were actually talking about right before you came in and then resume the conversation with you. Just this season is so compelling. And right off the bat, one of the things that you pulled out of the couple who disagrees politically, their names are Jason and Marjorie. Marjorie. You just flat out said, like, you don't know what each other cares about. Right.

And then you were saying, every time, that's always a common threat. We're not actually asking. I mean, Marjorie and Jason say that they argue all. day long about politics. Right. I mean, long marriage. And then you ask each of them, what does the other one care about? What are their actual opinions?

And they're like, they grow blank. They're like, um, not sure. So after that, is, is this the inflection point for you to say, you guys need to work on listening? Yeah. Because you're not listening to, you got it. Yeah. You needed that piece first.

You needed to confirm that they were arguing on day, but not internalizing anything the other person was saying. And I had it right in front of me. I was like, okay, start the argument. Let's listen. And then I asked each of them, like, what did the other one say? And what do you know about their opinions? And they were like, they drew a blank.

Wow. I mean, that's the thing about if you listen to a lot of political arguments, people are just like sitting there and building their own argument while the other person is talking. Yes. And was there some hedging around the sort of producing of the show on whether or not to have an example of something? such a marriage or a relationship on the show?

No, we wanted that. Yeah. We wanted that. We still want that. I mean, that's, I mean, obviously that's a very important topic nowadays.

Yes. And it was like really important for us to have this kind of couple. We were actually seeking that kind of couple. Yeah. And because it's true that the couples have to sort of, uh, basically, uh,

and you, I might be wrong on this, but the couples sort of do have to clear quote unquote a certain kind of emotional intelligence or like a threshold quotient. Yeah. And so it's hard for, it's hard to get anyone to really sit down and sort of go through that process. But I feel like there's an extra layer of refraction to have someone to people who disagree

politically but are married and who both mutually want this kind of therapy. Yeah. There weren't that many. That's true. This is the crazy thing that I observe in couples, especially over the past few years, where there is a political difference and I find that they're like well we just don't talk about it

and it's just and I've discovered that again and again maybe I'm seeing it through a certain lens because I'm a gay man who over externalizes and a lot of my friends also are very emotional and externalize a lot but people who are in relationships I find it with a lot of straight couples

who are like I just don't talk to my spouse about this that is so wild to me and I wonder if the therapy is now giving them an occasion to actually talk about it and not just argue about it. The thing is, I mean, people reach a point where they don't talk about it. They start talking about it and they get into like really intense disagreements. And, you know, people just like generate their own world of facts each in their own bubble.

Yeah. And there's nowhere to go with it. But I don't really understand the business of like not talking about politics because like everything we do has politics. like saturated all over our smallest choices. So even couples that don't talk about politics, they're constantly talking about politics. I mean, I always talk about a couple as like a mini political system. Yeah.

They're negotiating differences all the time. Right. And if one of them is more kind of, let's say, right wing, they're going to go for more domination and power solutions to difference. and someone who's more liberal is going to be more inclined to, like, think about multiple perspectives, and they're going to be negotiating those differences between them, even if they never talk about, like, Trump. Sure. Right.

It was just— So they're always talking politics. They are. Yeah. And it was just surprising how quickly they—I mean, I'm sure editing had to do with it, but it was surprising how quickly they both locked into listening because you prompted them to do that. And I think there was, like, almost some immediate progress there were they both—they both realized. oh, I guess we don't know what the other person cares about.

Yeah. Although, I mean, I love them. They're a great couple and the work was incredible with them. I mean, they were just, like, so delightful to work with. I did have kind of a hope that we're going to, I knew in advance that they have, like, political differences. Yeah. And I wanted one of the results of my work with them, that was my own personal selfish wish, for them to align more on politics. And that did not happen.

I mean, a little bit of that happened, but that did not happen. They got better at talking, but I thought there would be some conversion therapy. Because do you feel like that's, I mean, it's obviously better than how they came into the care, into the therapy. But it's at least, it's something, but like, are the politics just going to encroach on on whatever progress they've made? I don't know. I guess that's because you just, there is, it's sort of clinically the best thing and sort of on a production level the best thing for you to not really keep in touch with them after it's done. Right. We, I mean, I see just before, I'm going to see all of the couples. We're about to sit down with them just before it airs and just prepare them for what's coming. So I'm going to see them. Yes. Individual. Like just a couple to couple. Yeah. I do feel like there is this. And with some couples, I do keep in touch a little bit. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Certain couples, I feel like, are not received well.

By the audience? By the audience. What are you thinking? I think, I can name examples, but maybe that's, I feel like, oh, first season, what's, what's his? Oh, everyone liked to attack Mao. Yeah. Yeah, and poor Mao, like. I know.

It's just a learning experience for us. Sure. And like what we're, because I feel like this show is very preserved from the, it's been so consistent. The choices and just stylistically and in the way that the stories are told has been so consistent. But I feel like with someone like now as a first example of like, oh, the audience has strong feelings about these dynamics and these people. Like what were the learnings? Well, one thing to say before even the learnings is that, um, I think one of the good things about the show that we've heard repeatedly every season is that seasons begin and people love to create a certain kind of scapegoat.

They love to like hate on someone and decide who's bad and who are they siding with. And by the end of the season, they're like, oh, actually I developed empathy for everyone. So that's like actually an incredible journey for the audience, that that's sort of what we're after. I think it didn't go that well the first season with Mao for a few different reasons. I think, first of all, the editing, sort of the way he was portrayed, I think we didn't get into certain, we didn't have them for long enough. They didn't stay for the whole length of the treatment. They left at some point.

So we didn't have enough. And I think what we focused on in terms of what was shown to the audience didn't show enough of the subtleties of who he is. And I think we learned from that. I remember thinking that. I actually remember thinking, watching it and being like, he is, I understand him as being unappealing because of his stubbornness in this situation. But I was like, there's also something funny and attractive about him.

You know what I mean? He makes so much sense in his own world. Yeah. He just speaks deeply from his own world. Yeah. And you have to be willing to go into his world for Mao to make sense. Mm-hmm. Of course.

And ultimately couples therapy is this dialectic thing where two opposing things build into something greater than the sum of like the two things, right? And this is why this is your specialty. Because one-on-one therapy is... No, I do plenty of one-on-one. I'm an analyst. You're an analyst, but that is the special thing about couples therapy that... Totally. And you...

I mean, do you find yourself having to tell a lot of people? I also do one-on-one? Yes, right? And so I think that's exactly the difference between couples work and individual work. It is what I love about couples work that you have to like hold multiple perspectives at the same time. Well, it's a perfect show for me to put my phone down. You know how there's like Netflix has shows where it's like they understand that the audience is on their phones? Yeah.

But I feel like couples therapy is the rare show where it's like you have to pay attention. It's like it's like it's as if there were subtitles that you had to read, but there aren't. You can turn them on, but you know, you have to pay attention. You have to lock into this the way that, like, you are and the way that the couples are, because I feel like they are, they've opted in just as much. Yeah. What is, was your experience when someone approached you about bringing therapy to television? Because I always wonder what that thought process.

Yeah, like, what the hell? Not only just for the people having therapy, like, going through. through it, but also you facilitating it, like, the checkpoints you must have had to go through that not only every person, but every, you know, professional that is in your field is going to also have eyes on it. Well, when I talked with Josh and Elise, the creators of the show, when I talked with them originally, I wasn't thinking of participating as a therapist. I was just listening to their ideas and, like, I thought I want to consult to them. I have a, like a background in film and I thought I just want to make sure they don't make another

sleazy show about like a narcissistic therapist. Right. And we started talking and they, I mean they're amazing people. I just love talking to them and it was clear that they have like a real like dignified idea of what they want the show to look like. They really wanted to be about real therapy in depth, take the time. And then they started convincing them. me like why don't you try and first I was like that's ridiculous like I don't know how to be in

front of a camera I'm like they were like yeah you do no I didn't really well they saw it I guess they did but they're also very te their their documentary filmmakers they're like that's not the point yeah but what was your film background that you were saying I studied film so then so then you you just understand how the sausage yeah and I'm interested in the medium of film yeah I think it's a very powerful medium. I mean, especially in this culture. You can do a lot with good film and with good docs. So, yeah, but then they put the cameras in the room, and I was like, oh, actually we do what we do even when there's a camera there.

And even if I'm nervous, I know how to do this. And it doesn't really make a big difference. And then you put someone in front of me and we start talking about their issues and they're also getting absorbed in it. And I guess we can do it. It made me excited to be in therapy. Cool. It really did. I think it does that for a lot of people.

Originally, I wonder if this is one of the things that you were tipping to when you were saying, like, the narcissistic therapist. But the show in treatment. Is that what you mean? Like the sort of sensationalized. It was sensationalized. But that wasn't the worst. I mean, there are plenty of shows that are like, that portray therapists as either like falling asleep on their patients or wanting to sleep. with their patients, sleeping with their patients,

or just absorbed in their own shit. I mean, it's like, people love to project like the worst nightmare on their therapist. And of course they're bad therapists, but most people are decent. They actually wanna listen to their patients and they go into the profession not because they're narcissists.

Plenty of other professions to do that. But there's a bias towards the narcissist because the medium is film or television or whatever. And it's a spotlight. I think people, there's, There's so much, you know, the word transference, there's so much projection onto therapists of everything like all the ways in which your parents have failed you or what you want from the caretaker and all the fear of how they're going to fail you again.

And that's what TV kind of grabs onto, or that's what film grabs onto those fears. That's interesting because I think the way you work around that is by talking to Virginia, Dr. Virginia Goldner, and you talk to the peer group. Which, by the way, my old writing the essay teacher. Stop. Noir Al-Saladir. Oh. And she wrote an amazing book on laughter, on the difference between non-Duchin

laughter and Duchenne laughter. Right. You wonder the difference? Animal Joy. Animal Joy. Yeah. Amazing book. It's actually for comedy.

I think comedy people should read this book. I'm like, I'm surprised it. It's not like circulated more among comedians. But it's a whole thing about non-dushen laughter, which is voluntary laughter. Like, ha-ha. Like you're laughing as a way to, like, move the conversation. along. Yeah.

Just, just, it's, it's real, it's, it's, it's the guide rails, um,

guard rails for a conversation to just move along. Yeah. Oh, a little joke about the weather, whatever. Duchenne laughter is open mouth, involuntary,

corpseing laughter. Something's gone terribly wrong. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Like, nervous laughter. Or it's like, joyful, like, oh my God. Like, like,

I could break on SNL. Like, I was even, I was like, oh, like, a break on SNL is actually just Duchen laughter. Yeah. But Noir,

what a small world. And I reached out to her. I was like... Wait, but what she... So all the... So all like the grad students basically at NYU or like the adjuncts, whatever, had to, had... And they hated this, I'm sure. But they had to teach all the NYU freshmen across all the schools, had to take a one semester long class called writing the essay.

Just writing an expository essay about your life. And she... Core curriculum. Core curriculum stuff. I see. So like the Tisch kids in the acting school and the theater school had to take it. The chemistry majors had to take it. The business majors.

It was just the one core... class that everyone had to take. And she was my professor. Awesome. And I wrote it. I don't even know what the fuck I wrote. But she read it and she gave me a mediocre grade, which I deserved. But she's amazing.

But I reached after, I was like, oh my God, it's so cool. You're so, I think she's fantastic. But that's a great group. What differences are you getting from each group? Or from the group and Dr. Goldner. Virginia is my original mentor. I mean, that's why I brought her on to the show. I mean, she really taught me the whole.

couples therapy thing. And I guess we get kind of deeper into like clinical nuances and explaining what's going on in the treatment. With the peer group, they're all my friends. I mean, they're really my colleagues. They're not like chosen for the show. They're really the people that I talk to about patients. And first of all, they're really interesting.

They have very different perspectives on the work, each of them. And sitting with them, I feel like they're. they're like helping me carry the load of doing this work. I mean, it's an intense thing to do. I mean, it's an intense thing to be an analyst, to be a therapist, but to be doing it for TV is like, it's a lot of responsibility, like, big time. And they're kind of carrying the emotional responsibility with me. They're like my buddies and they're thinking with me and it's very helpful.

Yeah. And are they watching the footage or the, daily. They watch, not all of it, but they watch kind of select. Sure. Yeah. Because this season you talk to an autism and neurodivergent expert. And the way she was commenting on Clinton, I was like, oh, she must be, she must be privy to the footage at least to like understand his kind.

Yeah. And so I was always curious about it. But it didn't really click for me until this season, like five seasons in. I was like, oh, I guess these other people are like in on the sessions, too, or at least they get to watch. They get edits. They get edits. I see. Yeah. We choose kind of what would be important to talk about, what I'm struggling with.

Yeah. I mean, the thing about Clinton, yeah, he's neurodivergent and he does things like he's packaged in a slightly different way, but the emotions that he puts out there makes sense. Very much so. They're very direct, and he explains himself well. He's very verbal. they're just very raw. Yeah.

But it's the same material that we're made of. It's just, you know, packaged a little differently. I mean, it was not hard. I actually really loved working with them. I like working with all the people that stay. But it would be different in a relationship, I think. Right. Yes.

As a therapist, you know, you have the luxury of like coming in, spending some hours, working on and then you go home and you're like dealing with your own people. I think in a relationship it's different when someone is really different from you or why are different. I mean, generally difference is difficult, but when people are kind of structurally different, it's hard. Well, I don't know if you've gotten to this part,

but there's a moment where Shay kind of tells you like, you know, I'm trying to, like, you know, his diagnosis is relatively recent and he's letting all of this define everything about him or something along those lines and then he says it of course it defines everything about me your transness defines everything about you and it kind of immediately clarified things for i think both of them and maybe for you where she kind of was she was just kind of like i think she took that

in and she understood that in but as far as i remember i remember that session as far as i remember i don't know if it was in edits but she then said to him actually no longer oh wow wow i don't think that did i don't think I remember that. Yeah. Maybe it wasn't in there. But she did understand. But she was like, you know, I've been trans long enough that that is not, no longer kind of the defining feature for me.

And I think. And you notice that right away where you're like, will you tell Virginia like, oh, the recency of the diagnosis is like kind of. Yeah. That has a lot of texture here. I think like what you're saying is there's like a misalignment or they're just, I guess he's not being understood in the way that he wants to be or she is maybe ahead of him in terms of personal development in a way in all these areas where she's making money for the two of them

and she's lived independently for a long time and all these things and like I just think there are about a million different things in these people's lives across all your couples where you have to find your way into them even though you don't really have something. first hand to splatch on to. Right. And now, a vital break from our sponsor, Vital Proteins. You know the blue tub you've probably seen everywhere? That's Vital Proteins, collagen peptides.

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This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent. any disease. I thought you said it was proven by science. I never said that. I just said it was good. I Heart Radio is throwing it back. 2010s, the decade. To the days of huge hits and unforgettable anthems.

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I Heart Radio app. Presets a station, so it's always one tab away. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, name? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast?

Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should.

should call it. And, well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, people could call in and say, Hey, Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or where you're wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL

late night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier. This week, my guest,

SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an Acapella band with their between songs banter. There's the worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea

that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name. The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion?

We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You love me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. You can have opinions.

You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods. of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships.

I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As I said earlier, it's my mind. When I said about the political system, couples are all about, like, figuring out how to deal with someone who's other than you. It's, so it's a little more extreme with Chey and Clinton, but it's just a little more extreme.

Yeah. I think when you get into a relationship, too, you never get into, or I've been surprised every time. I'm on my fourth boyfriend. And they're all really different. If you line them all up and said, what do you have in common? and it was that they dated the same person, your mind would be blown. Can I ask you?

And are you different in each relationship? That's a really interesting question. I think I provide, I try to, you know, I actually, this is something I haven't really admitted out loud, but sometimes I find myself giving the same, wanting to give them the same nicknames. I gave another one and I go, don't do that. Don't do that.

Because I'm realizing that's me and the way I want to express myself, but then I'm just, like on an island by myself there for no reason. Right. And so, but that was just like a really interesting thing. And I think like the thing about all four of them is all their complexes were so different. And you never would have expected I'm going to be in a relationship with someone that is, that is dealing with this kind of thing.

You just don't think when you're getting into something with someone or you're falling in love with someone. Yeah. But you're going to meet that thing, that that that's what's going to show up like time. into it. Yeah. I think one of the things I said about myself forever was like I'm never going to be on like a distance relationship.

And now I am. And I was like and it's like just funny the things that you like the places you find yourself. Yeah. And the challenges that you have and a lot of the things that I find myself dealing with is like how exactly did I get here? Then you can deal with what it is. Yeah. You know.

I'm tempted to ask you questions. You should. You can ask me questions. Did you, like let's say with these four people. Yeah. Did you somehow unconsciously kind of know something about them, which is why you picked what you then found out later on? So this is something funny. Every time I saw a picture of each one of them.

I said that's my boyfriend. Oh. And I was right every single time. I don't know if that means that I was like manifesting it or that I actually acted on it anyway. something that you needed and that something will show up you spend enough time with a person then you realize what you saw in that picture yeah you saw something yeah I showed up a lot later yeah there's something weird it's like it's like I'll see the photo it's happening four times in my life I see the photo of the person and I'm like that's my boyfriend I'm not sure how but it is and every

single time it's it's proven to be true and you can probably look back If you really looked at what happened in the relationship, you can look back and say, that's what I saw in this picture. I saw that quality. That's really interesting. But there are different strains or different qualities in all four. Yeah. Because you're changing and you're needing different things.

Yeah. It's just interesting. It's just like it's one of those things. And I do think a common thing about each one of them is in each picture. Each one of them was performing a little bit. You know what I mean? Maybe I recognize that about it. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like one of our best friends, Jared, was, we dated a long time ago. And he does this thing in pictures where he just looks a little tough. But he's like such a soft, cuddly, gooey guy who just wants to talk about like Olivia Rodrigo. Yeah. And but in his pictures, it's. But you picked up on that kind of. Yeah, I think I saw humor in it, you know?

Was that what made you say that's my boyfriend, though? Like, what was the thing about? For sure. I think I thought he was super hot. And I thought like. Yeah, but super hot is how things appear to us, but we don't understand why. Like somebody will show me someone who's super hot to them and I'm like, what? Yeah.

But to them, because it's tickling something that matters to them. Yeah, it's really interesting. Do you find that? I've heard of this. I've known about this thread where he's looked at a picture and he's gone, that's my boyfriend. And I have other friends who also kind of have that same knee-jerk thing where they're like, well, that's my husband. And then they will end up getting married.

Yeah. And what's your theory about that? I don't really have one except, isn't that interesting? Okay. But I don't know. Well, here's the theory. That's the theory is that it's interesting. That they're picking up on something.

Uh-huh. And you see a lot. I mean, you know as comedians that you can express so much in like the tiniest gesture of the face and the way the body moves and like you've expressed like a whole world in that the people are not conscious of but it goes

it conveys information what about me when I completely misread the signals almost always say more I mean oh my God it's so cool to hear you say that to me

now where are you now where are you and where are you listening to him always always no I just whatever I just I feel like I cast a wide net and then I get a

couple crabs, so to speak. Meaning you're not looking? Oh, no, no, no. I feel like, gosh. Meaning you're not actually looking? Oh. I think that's more dead on. You're not paying attention. Sure. Sure. So Matt's thing with me is always, well, maybe it's that guys are afraid to approach you or something. And I'm like, and then I, what I've internalized

with like parental voices and just the voices in my head that are just all the way back from childhood. I'm so sorry to make you do this. Go ahead. It's okay. It's just that it's like, oh, well, like, the worthiness, my own sense of worth is not, like, aligning with the possibility that this could be, that this is possible at all. Right. So. So, may I translate?

Please. So you're saying that whatever noise you're getting from the inside is putting a filter and you don't actually see who's in front of you. Or that I immediately write it off. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of noise coming from the inside And it's like getting in the way of you seeing what's going on Absolutely just so many

Super constructed frequencies Kind of amplifying each other I see you in my head as a turtle Who doesn't know your shell has some spikes Sometimes I think that He doesn't realize When he's pushing When he's being

What's drawing? I think you withdraw when you get maybe a little nervous. And I think that what you're picking up on is like people are intimidated by me is I actually think they're not. But you're just, you react a little bit more strongly than I think you realize. Okay. That's my read on it as his best friend of 15 years. Yeah. Yeah.

Has he ever said that to you before? Yeah. I don't think he's, I don't think he's made the turtle of comparison. But it makes it's a great. Turtle thing came to me just now. Nice. Yeah. Very good.

I was picturing one of those Mario turtles, like where they have, you know, the ones you don't want to be around that fly down the, and they have the spikes on their shelves. Like a Bowser type, really, Orna. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a Bowser type. A Bowser type. Bowen is a Bowser type. But not really. Not like that.

He ain't roaring. He's got jokes, though. What do you think is the healthiest relationship in pop culture? Mario and Peach? No, but Peach is always. No. What's the healthiest relationship in pop culture? Oh, but you know, you even told us.

You don't know much pop culture. No, no, no, no. We're moving past because Dr. Orner even told us, I know nothing about pop culture. Why am I putting you on the spot and making you? I'm so sorry. When you are the culture, you don't need to know it. You do. You're the style icon of the year.

I'm going to say that from now on. I am the culture. I don't know anything. That's a good line. It's when you're strolling down Park Slope. You're like, listen, I am the culture. Park Slope's okay. Nobody challenges me either.

They're all doing their own thing. Everyone's in pajamas. We do want to ask you, though, the central question of our show. And we usually do have people in the entertainment world. And obviously you are, but, you know, this is an interesting thing to ask you, Dr. Orno, what was the culture that made you say culture was for you? Defining culture, whether it be atmospheric or pop cultural, that you think moved you in a you direction.

Okay, I did think about it, but I'm a little worried that it's going to be out of touch with what's normally happening. It can be anything. We'll catch up to you. Or like sound. So what I thought were two things. One was David Lynch's Twin Peaks. Well, yeah. Sure.

That was like, when that show came out, I was like, okay, I belong to this world. Wow. What about it? The way it was unsettling. Unsettling, going for the weird, not afraid to go for like the unconscious material and go really far into it and manifest it visually. It was just like,

oh, I relate to this. The weirdness. The weirdest. Can you believe that was on ABC? Can you believe that was on network television? Just like a network television show. That would never stand a chance in hell now. Right. Right. But that was an amazing moment. Yeah. Just real emotional texture and terrain and stuff that's not

easy to digest. And a lot about like madness, about the madness of like the psyche, like all the edges of the psyche. Was this before you wanted to go into therapy? Yes, because you were young. I've already been in therapy by then. I've already explored the edges. Wow.

That's why it appealed to you. That's why it appealed to you. Was there another answer? The other one was Pina Bouch has this piece called Café-Muller. I don't know if you've ever seen it. I don't think so. It's an incredible dance piece where, and you know, it's dance theater and it's couples. It's all couples.

But it's just, I mean, highly recommended. It's one of the most moving and intense and beautiful pieces that captures something incredible about humanity and about relationships and both the appeal and the impossibility of relationships. Right. It's a really incredible piece. And which directly links to what I do. Yeah, yeah. I love when the answer is clearly a threat. You know, like it's just true.

And I actually enjoy it more when it's something that I have not seen. Okay. Because I'm learning something. What is it about the relationships on display there? Just like they're very emotional. They're very emotional. All her work is very emotional. But it's also funny.

It's always witty. And there's a lot of meta. in it in all of her dance pieces. Like it's both like really sensual and very now, but also intellectual. But she plays a lot with gender in those pieces. Men, women, women, women, and power structures and dependency and independence,

like people kind of jump on each other, hold on to each other, push each other away. there's a lot of longing and mourning and aggression and it's like all the things that make us humans and beautiful. Yeah. Do you get any sort of, synesthetic isn't the right word,

but as you are in treatment with people, I feel like you are, maybe you are like seeing something or sensing something that like is kind of channeling in through something that is not pure, purely intellectual, although of course it is. Like, is there any description you have on that? I think it would be, I wonder if you guys as actors and comedians, if you talk about this,

but, you know, people convey, like, a huge amount of information beyond the words they use. Sometimes it's aligned with the words they use, but often it's like of a different nature. Sometimes it's even opposite of what they're saying. but, you know, like I'm moving my hands, like my eyes, like the body, you feel it when you're sitting with people. All of this information is transpiring between us, and a lot of it is very unconscious. That's why I said, like, years later, you can look at the picture and then you realize the information was there.

Yeah, yeah. But it takes us a long time to understand it in words and in our conscious mind. But as an analyst, you're trained to be like an antenna that listens to all of it. So like when I'm sitting with patients, it's like I'm like an antenna that receives a lot of information. And I've learned over the years to translate that into material that I can think of. I don't know. Was that an answer? Yes, absolutely.

Because even your body language in those sessions is active listening. Yes. I move, I move my face, I move my hands, I move in my chair a lot, I'm in. My favorite part of the show is the micro expressions that it picks up. Yeah. I mean, that's my, I think, when the camera finds the partner who's receiving the information and you can see them either working it out or disagreeing or whatever it is, and then obviously, without fail, picks up with you, where are you?

You know what I mean? And I think that's my favorite thing about the show. And it is, you know, it is a skill to be sitting and receiving what someone is saying while also tracking what the other person is going through, which is really one of the most important things about what is being said. Yeah. And just the cameras being hidden the way they are or placed the way they are is. Yeah. I can tell you that sometimes there are sessions where the DP or someone who's been looking through.

one of the cameras tells me something about someone's facial expression that I didn't see. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Would you call it Verite? Because documentary isn't totally accurate. But I think the appeal of the show for so many people, the reason why it's a broad, inviting, appealing show is because it scratches the sort of voyeuristic reality show,

itch that everyone kind of has, like their base. Not everyone, but like I certainly do. And yet it feels like it's Verite. It is the truth. It's Verité. because no one is influencing anything other than me trying to help people get better. But no one's telling us do this, do that,

or make it more this, or have the treatment end well. The cameras are just there. And the editors are just waiting for the footage to just tell the story as it is. Sure. And are the lights on the soundstage mimicking what the daylight situation is outside? Okay.

It had to. Yes. Because I'm like, oh, it's such a gorgeous evening. It sucks. It's, yeah. I'm in such a world right now after what you said. I have to tell you. I'm really thinking about it.

Like I was thinking about, because it happened a fifth time. With the picture? Yes. So this is years and years and years ago. I just got to NYU. And we have a very close friend who remains one of our best friends to this very day. His name is Dave. And I saw him in a picture.

And he was from Rhode Island. I'm from Long Island. And we hadn't met. And it was his parents who sort of looked like my parents and his sister, was exactly three years younger than him and him. And we dressed similarly, and I could tell we were from a similar, like, culture of upbringing. And I thought in my mind when I saw that picture, I was like, I have to date that boy. I have to. And I think what I really needed at the time was someone who was like me. Yeah, you needed some twinning. I needed someone who was like, you're like me and you're going to be

okay. You know what I mean? And I think my first boyfriend, Henry, I was 25, he, He's so sweet. And he was coming across in the picture as very cuddly and sweet. And that's, I knew I was due for a first relationship. And he was the one for that. Yeah. I had an ex that nest me up. And I think what I saw in the picture was like, that guy's going to put the shit out of me.

You know what I mean? Yeah. You did. And you know what I mean? And I think it's, it's, it's, I'm just working it out now. It's like that thing, it has to be something beyond I'm clairvoyant and I see a picture. Yeah. I know this thing.

It's your body telling you like, that's the thread we need to follow. And it's a visual. Totally. I'm really happy. I can finally find that. Yeah. Because now I know. It's like, you know, you have a reaction to something.

It's like telling you something else. It's to fulfill a psychological need at the time. Right. Yeah. And you pick up on the queue without knowing. Mm-hmm. Our mind, our conscious mind is so behind everything else that's happening. Yeah.

All your conscious mind knows to do is to upset. Yeah. Or to say hot. Yeah, hot. Or like, you know, like, you know, then send a DM you shouldn't send or. Yeah. Introducing Eminem's caramel you already love now popped into a totally new texture. I'd say Eminems are one of those truly iconic snacks.

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Let's go. With IHeart Pride Canada. Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers. And guess what? We have some big news. What's the news, new? Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts throughout there. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually? to come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys.

I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Well, we were thinking I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band. Before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this.

We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast, where people could call in and say, hey, Jonas. And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen. We don't care where you hear it.

Another podcast from some SNL, late-night comedy guide. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk, to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and headwriter, Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter. There's that worst singer in the group?

The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The group. The yard birds, right? That's the name.

The Harvard Yardt. They're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged. One erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast.

or wherever you get your podcast. Human be, I need some jokes to make me seem funny. You can have opinions. You can have like a strong stance. And then there's your body having its own program. I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, a cognitive scientist and hosts of the podcast, a slight change of plans, a show about who we are and who we become when life makes other plans. We share stories and scientific insights to help us all better navigate these periods of turbulence and transformation. There is one finding that is consistent, and that is that our resilience rests on our relationships.

I wish that I hadn't resisted for so long the need to change. We have to be willing to live with a kind of uncertainty that none of us likes. Listen to a slight change of plans on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts. or wherever you get your podcasts. I really wonder what you think, have you always worked with same-sex couples? Yeah. So I wonder what you think about just, you know, as gay men

who are in different stages of dating and this obviously is a big topic on this podcast. I wonder what you've seen change or not change about same-sex relationships since you started practicing or working with couples to now as the world has changed so much about the way that we're accepted. or discussed.

I can offer up the prevalence of open relationships among gay men. Yeah. Yeah. Being more being more not only among gay men. Of course. Open relationships in general. In general. I mean, that's one of the gifts that keeps giving. No, the gave men offers society.

Oh, sure, sure. I thought you were to say it's a gift that keeps on giving for you. No. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. The idea of it. Yes. Yeah. The idea of it. it has been, I think, excellent. I mean, opening up all these, like, barriers. But going back to,

going back to that interesting question, there are some, I mean, I've been working for a long time, I'm old, and there are some obvious things, which is like earlier on in my career, gay men would come, and there would be so much, so much palpable internalized homophobia. It was like it was like thick and it's so much lighter now. It's not gone. No. Not gone, but so much lighter now. And there's so much more language around it and just people have the capacity to think about it.

Yeah. Rather than for homophobia to kind of clutch them without them understanding what's destroying them. Yeah. That you can do it to yourself. Yes. Yes. Of course. Yeah.

I may be back a couple of decades ago. even like there was just something um death drive related to the fact that like um you know like that like your your sort of bill of health was so commodified or was a thing that like preferred conferred status on people that was completely constructed you know what i mean just in terms like in like a pre-prep society when like yeah you're talking about the aids yes yes i know and that period of time that was like insane like how much like homophobia got like wrapped into all these other death drive. It was,

that was horrible. Not to mention that there were all these deaths that people were dealing with. I mean, that was like, yeah, that was a very, very complicated time period. Anyway,

so that's on the grand scale of things, of how things have changed. You know, nowadays there are other big things that are happening that are affecting not only gay couples, but this sense of like foreshortened future, that there's less of where is this world going, climate, you know, AI, which has an impact on relationships.

So, I mean, I'm going to make a generalization that I don't know if it's true. It's just what I see in my practice. It's not like a real study. But it almost had like an inverse effect on gay relationships versus straight, relationships. Like straight people are less in a hurry to get into relationships. They kind of don't see a future. And gay, this is vast generalization, gay people are more okay with settling into relationships and less kind of anxiously bopping around. I don't know how to exactly theorize about that. We said to a friend on the podcast recently, this is the first time

maybe in like human history where we are uh mourning the future in advance yes well put and so like well is that maybe part of it where gay couples feel why not fulfill the psychological need for them culturally or whatever individually where it's like well this thing that like i was told was never available to me let me try to make that happen as as whatever quickly or whatever more and as fulfilling of a way possible. Yeah. And straight people are kind of like, well, what's the point? What's the point? I'm supposed to be doing this, but the promise is gone. They're seeing examples of their friends with children and seeing how difficult it is to raise them. And how do you imagine a future for them? Uh-huh. Yeah. I think it's, I think maybe that's something. I don't know. Yeah. But I, that,

that, that, that, I don't find that to be a generalization. That actually feels. You resonate with that? Definitely. I think so. I've definitely thought more. often lately, just the general malaise. Yeah. Like even tonight, our friends are like, we're going to go to jockstrap night at the eagle. And I was like, you of course love the eagle. I'm sure.

I'm sure you got plenty of the other. And I know the eagle. I know the eagle. Come with us. Yeah. Be pleased. It would be too huge of a hit. But I can't think of anything I'd want to do less, honestly.

And I do one. And I do wonder if that's just me getting older or I feel like I already did it, but I feel like in a world where it's this idea of mourning the future, I've already done a lot of the frivolous, careless stuff. You know, there's this song, it's called If the World was ending.

And it talks about like, the lyric is if the world was ending, you'd come over, right? Just asking one person, like, I just wanna check in with you that if the world was gonna end and we all knew it. And we had an hour to get to someone, you would do that, right? You know what I mean?

Like, it's this idea that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think that. And if the world is ending, can we finally just be together? Right. Yeah.

If it was, you know, and of course the song is written because this idea is out there in the ether. And I just feel like I've done all this. I know what that feels like. I don't really know what it feels like to be like secure, you know.

Right. This idea, like, I've always fought with this idea of monogamy because I feel like I'm talking as a version of my past self. You know what I mean? That wouldn't be able or wouldn't want to not, it's this thing I have in my head about it not meaning I had freedom or something. Or why should it be cheating if, you know, if this happens. But nowadays it's like, I don't know if it's my general energy for all of that because it does take a lot of work.

or it's something else. But I can wrap my head around the concept of it now. And I could have been just railing against monogamy as a concept because that was the heterosexual concept and therefore I didn't like it. But that's changed, I think. It's interesting you say that because I see that in myself. And maybe it's that idea of mourning the future. Okay, if we're mourning the future, maybe I should look at things a different way if we're mourning, you know?

Yeah. It was a thing that was not available to us growing up in the sense that like we were watching our straight friends couple up and do the things like in middle school and high school and like just developmentally sort of like grow with the time and the age that they were. Yeah. Or something like that. We gave that up a long time ago. Yeah. We never had it. I don't know if you gave it up.

Never had it. Never had to have it. Exactly. So I went through conversion therapy. and I feel like I'm finally on the other side of it it'll always come back Are you okay to say something? Yeah, oh absolutely

It was total quackery Eight weeks, this guy trying Like sort of Like drip feeding it to me Where the first four sessions were like Talk therapy, traditional like just nothing No sort of dogmatic agenda to it at all Grooming you

Huh? Grooming you Grooming me Oh how ironic And so, and then the back half was, okay, let's walk through, talk me through a moment where you felt attracted to a man. And where were you, how were you feeling? It was like, how were you feeling in your body? What was your posture?

You were hunched over? Well, that must mean that you were feeling, were you in pain? You must have been in pain. And so, yeah, so let's just start associating your same sex attraction with moments where you were in distress. Oh, my God. And that was what was kind of so early on internalized for me. Wow. And it's like using CBT.

Yes, it was full CBT, but like in a mind manipulation. Wow. And it's violence. So this. Yeah, total violence. Yeah. And I should tell you the second to last session. Did you know that something bad is being done to you?

No. I think that was that was the goal of the first four sessions, the grooming. The grooming. So the ultimatum was for my parents, they find a long story short, they find out I'm gay. My college acceptances are coming in. My sister, whatever. So the ultimatum is either you stay in state in Colorado and go to school here and live with us or you can go to New York and live with your sister if you go through this conversion therapy. The irony was that my sister went to NYU, the gayest undergrad in the world. Awesome. They created one of the most publicly gay people in America. Awesome. And I'm so happy they did. Oh my God. So I acquiesce and I was coming home to my parents like sobbing at the dinner

table every single day. And I was like, I have to make, as a child of immigrants, I'm like, I have to make this right. I've like, this is, this is the bigot. This is a wound upon the family that I, that is, it's on me to heal. So I go along with this. And, uh, the second to last session. You know, we're fine. I'm like giving it a go. I'm like, okay, my identity is malleable. Sure, I'm growing. Like neuroplasticity, whatever. My dad goes, can you give us referrals for people in New York who do this? And he's like, sure, I will come up with the list for the last session. I go home. Next week is the last session. I go in. He wants to reflect, sort of put a cap on the whole thing. He's like, how? So let's just reflect on what this is. And then we talk about it. And then he goes, I want to share with you an anecdote about one of my former page.

His former patient of mine was driving along the highway in California and his car starts to break down and he has to get off in San Bernardino, not somewhere you want to be. He gets off at San Bernardino and he stops about a Denny's. It's late at night. He goes to Denny's. He sits down. The waiter comes over to him. He's a glint in his eye, pours him coffee. There's a connection.

And I go, am I going to really have sex with this waiter? He switches into the first person. and then he catches himself. Oh my God. And he goes, I mean, my patient was saying, and I caught him in the lie, the blood leaves his face, everything about the last eight weeks was completely destroyed in that moment. It was completely clear to me.

Exactly. That this is a charade. Yes. Wow. He rushes to finish the session. I leave kind of shell shots like, okay, yeah, like this is a lie. And the diplomas on his wall are all fake. Or they're all just, they're just shams.

They don't matter. Even if he earned them, they don't matter in this moment. And so then he brings me out to the waiting room where my dad sits. And he's like, that was a great last session. And these are the names. I could only find one name of someone who does this in New York. And he's not even in New York. He is in New Jersey. And then my dad goes, well, you can take the train out to Jersey every week, right?

And I was like, yeah, I definitely. I'll take the New Jersey Transit to see this therapist once a week while I'm in college. Mm-hmm. I knew in that moment. I think even my dad knew. This is not going to continue. Never happening.

Yeah. And that was like just this sort of unceremonious, hilarious in a way and to that whole saga. Wow. Yeah. But I'm still kind of like convalescing from this. Of course. Yeah. Did you see Matthew and Gianni?

Yeah. Yes. And it's just, it's so, it's so indefinitely. tense and I keep writing it off and people keep wanting to talk about it and sometimes I'm cagey about it and sometimes I'm but I'm just like and I think people have the sense that I'm a reserved person who like

shuts down, associates and disconnected from things and I'm like well yeah I guess I happen to me this happened to me and I have to be protective there is like when it gets I hear you saying like sometimes it depends who wants to talk about it because there is this sensationalizing that happens in the media about conversion

therapy like oh can you believe it What a survivor. And it's like, yes, this is true. But like when it's in print or something and when it's for someone else, like, it's hard because that is your real experience. Yeah. It's very hard to walk through that. And I think an image gets conjured up in other people's brains about like me with like electrodes or whatever. Right.

Right. I actually did have that image. Did you? Yeah, I did think about like this like. Right. And that's okay because that's. ECT for women, you know. Yes.

That are like, that were too histrionic. Exactly. A hysterical women. Yeah. It is and you would and I don't fault you for that but I think it's just the the portrayal of it in media or or some such is makes it so that like people have this like people project onto me like their their condolences or whatever and I'm like I think like it was fine and it was actually quite boring. Yeah. But what it did was very pernicious and very slow and it's been very hard to sort of like wade through that. But thank you for listening to me to tell you that story.

Well, thank you for being open. When people tell on themselves, years and years and years ago, and don't do this, and no one would now, I was a freshman at NYU, and me and my friend went into, as a joke,

went into the Scientology building. And we were like, we were like, let's see how crazy it is. And this guy gave us a tour. They split us up, by the way. Of course. Yeah.

They gave us a tour. And it was, I was like, I gotta get the hell out of here. So at the end, he's like, okay, just sign this thing and we'll go. And I just go, the last thing I said was, what made you want to get into this? And he goes, well, for a really long time, I used to be really angry.

And I'm still really angry. And he was so mad. And then me and my friend are like, oh my God, looking at each other like, yeah, what? And he goes, and I just feel like ever since I came here, I'm not angry anymore. And we were like, okay. Yay! It's time to leave Scientology Times Square at this juncture. Yeah.

18-year-old me and Lizzie. We got the heck out of there. But it's, I feel bad. The veneer always cracks, though. Yeah. I don't know. It's like even with this guy who like professionally was paying it forward in terms of getting people to go back in the closet, it didn't work on him.

Right. You know what I mean? But my last question before we get into into I don't think so honey is now that you're doing press for this. And in the years that you've done press for the show, do you feel like there's a kind of scaled up avoidance of transference or that you feel like you have to be very guarded about your own personal life or not sure too many details about yourself

so that the audience does not counter transfer on you in a way because they are parasocial seeing you as a therapist. Yeah, I mean, that's been from the beginning of us doing the show. I mean, the filmmakers who are now, seriously, they could be analysts. They've gone through analytic training with me. But early on, they were like, well, you're going to be an important person in the show. We want you involved.

We want to know a lot about you. And I was like, no, no, no, it's not going to work if you know too much about me. Because the whole idea is for the therapist to kind of move to the background to some degree and to let the action unfold, not to focus on me. And I think that's a very important part of the show, that it's not about me and my personality and my background and all of that, but it's about the work. I feel like you probably have to be bounderied about that in the promotion of the show. I'm sure people want to ask you things about yourself.

I think people are well trained by now. Good. Yeah. That's great. Because I'm even like... You guys have been very nice. Good. I'm asking a very personal question.

Thank you. I was like, come to the eagle! I mean, I'm sitting here thinking. I wonder at the eagle if we can get into Earth there. Not on camera. Exactly. No problems. You have the desire to help

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of formation in Santee Soutenue by Sante Canada. Hey, it's us to Jonas Brothers and guess what? We have some big news. What's the news?

Huge news. We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to a... We're the first people to do podcasts. Pretty, yeah, pretty wide range of podcasts.

We're starting a trend. But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name Hey Jonas, guys? I honestly don't remember. I think it was on a call about what we should call it. Oh, we were thinking, I'm originally calling it

one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers was... This is how you guys remember it going down? Yes. I have a very different memory of this. We were talking about a thing, a bit for the podcast where people could call in and say, hey Jonas.

And then I wrote down on my little notepad, Hey Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title for the podcast. But thanks for remembering that, guys. Listen to Hey Jonas on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen.

Don't care where you hear it. Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy. Not quite. Unhumor me with Robert Smygel and friends. Me and hilarious guests from Jim Gaffigan to Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman, help make you funnier. This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel, help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

The worst singer in the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation. The yard birds, right? That's the name.

The Harvard Yardt, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle-aged, one erection. Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Humor me. I need some jokes. to make me seem funny.

Keith Giamanka seemed like a mild-mannered suburban dad, but secretly, he became someone else, a master of disguise who went on a crime spree. At the time, did it seem like a crazy idea? It seemed very crazy, but I felt so desperate that I felt it was the quickest, easiest way out. Did you allow yourself to think about how it could go wrong on what that might look like.

No, I didn't want to manifest that. I was trying to manifest success. Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life? That is not the look of an innocent man. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever, because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is I Don't Think So Honey. We have a preview of what yours is going to be, but we'll go first to sort of set the syntax or whatever. I have a therapy-based one or emotional-based one. Okay. Because I realize this today, actually, because it happened. All right. Okay, here we go. This is Matt Rodgers, I don't think so, honey.

His time starts now. I don't think so honey, passive aggression because I think I realize what I hate about it. It makes me feel like you think I'm an idiot. Like I don't see it. And that's what bothers me. Was I being that? No, it's you can be, but you were not being it. Because I think you know that I'm smart.

But some people I think that don't or they're they're not giving me the credit that I don't pick up on every little thing that you say passive aggressively. I would rather you insult me. I would rather you be aggressive than be passive aggressive because of the thing that's running alongside it, which is they're too dumb or they're too self-involved to pick up on what I'm also saying, like, or what the underlying meaning of this is. Like, I promise you I pick up on it. And the fact that I then have to sit with it is also a noxious thing you're doing.

You're not saying what it is. It's something you want me to ruminate on. And because I do think so, honey, I don't think so honey. It's working, and that's why I don't like it. And that's one minute. But the passive-aggressive behavior I've realized, like, is the thing that gets me the most. But that is the theme of our hour together. Like the idea, really, we have a theme here.

Really? Yeah, because you're talking about the fact that the words might not be really what the person is conveying. Right. They're conveying so much more. And you're supposed to ignore all the stuff. but you're picking up on all of it. Yeah. That they're being hostile and mean

and you're supposed to like go along with it while you've picked up on it. Somebody said... Like just say it directly. Just have the words and the behavior match. Yes. This is what set me off. Somebody said, well, so-and-so is the only person

that listens to me. And I was just like... Right. I was like, I don't listen to you? Right. Like, and I was just like, it's a couple things. It's like, you don't think I'll pick up on that

and be upset about it or that it would hurt my feelings, and that you would say it in a way that you knew would hurt my feelings. But not own it. But not own it. It's like cowardly. It's like I do feel like passive aggression,

like especially in well-established relationships or relationships where you know there's a lot of care. I find that if I ever am like reacting in a way, people are like, oh, you snapped. It's like I don't even notice I'm doing it. I think I'm just super sensitive to not being given the credit to handle direct information.

Yeah. Yeah. And are you hoping for them to give you that sort of directness in kind? I'm hoping that people just tell me what's up. Like you have something, say it. Yeah. And maybe it's because they feel like I'm going to have an answer for everything. So they'd rather not directly, like, give me the information because they know that I react

very quickly and I'm a verbal processor. But I still don't like it. Yeah. You know, like... I'm with you. that. Yeah, I'm with you. And it was just, but it's, you know, I was, again, like, that's why I love the show so much

is because it helps you realize things about yourself. Yeah. Because suddenly I'm like, well, they're right. You know what I mean? And then this other thing comes in where I'm like, oh my God, like, you know, but again, had we just said the thing. Yeah. But not everyone is just ready to say the thing.

Right. Yeah. Because there's a whole ocean of nonverbal communication that's happening. And because we push, we repressed, we dissociated. we don't know everything. Our conscious mind is a latecomer. Yeah. I'm reading The Lath of Heaven by Ursula K. Lequin.

Have you read it? No. Okay. Sci-fi novel written to the 70s about like a man who has the power to change the world in his dreams. And so he goes to a doctor. And she wrote like the left hand of darkness. She's like a very queer, very like ahead of her time, still ahead of her time. And then she passed away 10 years ago.

sci-fi writer, but basically his clinician understanding his power, like inducing sleep in him, but like influencing his dreams so that he gets what he wants. Oh, wow. It's, anyway, so there's just I don't know why I bring this up, just in terms of like that, in terms of

the subconscious mind. Yeah. Yeah. Like having this kind of the bad doctor. No, and it ends up being this, it ends up being this, he is. He's the villain of the, it's, it's the patient understanding what's being done to him and he has to stop the doctor. It's incredible. I have a more frivolous one.

I have a more frivolous one. But it's still therapy related. This is Bowen Yang's I don't think so honey. His time starts now. I don't think so honey. The white noise machines outside the therapist's office. Come on. I mean, I understand.

It's important for that arrangement. Sometimes I want brown noise. Sometimes I want pink noise. I want different frequencies. It's such a different frequency of noise. Got it. But it actually has the potential to lull you to sleep. But then your subconscious mind kind of comes to play.

I just think, I remember feeling so stupid when I asked my prior, my previous therapist, when I would walk into her office, I was like, what are those little dish things at the bottom of each door? 30 seconds. She was like, those are the white noise machines so that people don't listen to non-each other's sessions. And I was like, right, right, right. I don't know, show us a little. We'll keep it a secret. Obviously, it's confidential.

I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But sometimes, isn't it fun. 15 seconds. It would incentivize you to go to therapy so you can just lightly snoop. You can never linger. you can just kind of walk past to go to the bathroom. Five seconds.

Then it kind of a, if it helps divert whatever unnecessarily unnecessarily telehealth is happening, I'm all for it. And that's one minute. That's one minute. Some telehealth is necessary.

Some of it show up. You must be a little relieved though to have the show. So at some element of you, you can be like, can you fucking believe this guy? You know what I mean? You must leave some sessions like, I kind of wish I could share

what just happened with someone, but obviously I can't. Now you have the show. I know. I know. And I can talk to people about my patience. Exactly. An amazing gift.

Kind of a hack. Yeah. Yeah. And they let you. By the way, I don't use white noise machines. Interesting. I use music. Oh, what kind of music?

Yeah, whatever. I feel like a playlist. But I don't like white noise machines. I'm sure you have wonderful taste. I was going to say, what's your, what? I don't know if you use Spotify or Apple music or what. Yeah, okay. What's on there?

What's on there? My phone's in the other room. Is it instrumental stuff? At the moment, there's a lot of ambient, ambient electronica. Hell yeah. I bet you'd like 1 Otricks Point Never or something. Oh, I just listened to them yesterday. To him.

Oh my God, that's insane. He just played in Brooklyn. I know. I know. My daughter actually went to that show. I was supposed to go to that show. That's insane. That was the last thing I listened to.

Wow. Okay. I'm with you. I'm with you. Oh, you're so cool, Orna. God. Okay. All right.

Of course you listen to noise. All right. Right, let's go. This is, are you ready? Yes. Okay. This is Orner Girl, Dr. Orner Girlenix, I don't think so, honey. Her time starts now.

Okay, I don't think so, honey. Mm-hmm. First of all, to ask a psychoanalyst to rant is already a problem. Of course, we're so sorry. Because we're supposed to, like, analyze all of our grievances and grudges out of ourselves. Of course. So, no road rage. Uh-huh.

But I do have pet peeves. Go on. I don't think so, honey. I don't like people that come up to me. me and ask me, can't you leash your dog? Look at this dog. Yeah. I mean, she's like a love bomb, an angel.

And what happens on the street when I'm walking with her and she's just like schmoozing around being loving and sweet and, you know, the prettiest face, people come and unleash all of their old grudges, all of their entitlement. And they're just like, can't you leash your dog? And I'm like, can't you leash your anger? Yes. And then I start self-analyzing. No.

Okay, okay, he's another person, accept otherness. Maybe he's having a hard day. What's up with you? Why are other people bothering you? So that's how an analyst thinks. But I do want to tell you, for example, that there are people, like I had this one guy that was standing with a stroller. He was a dad with a screaming baby, like a lot of environmental noise pollution.

And he's standing there and he's watching Nico, my gorgeous love bomb, snooping around. And she ran behind a building like into the bushes, into the shrubbery. He just stood there and watched and watched. And finally she came back. And he's like, well, are you going to clean up after her? So I do not like that. I do not like people telling me to leash my dog.

I think there is a little bit too much righteousness in people who want me to leash my dog. I think they should leash their anger. And that's two minutes. And that is a lack of control on their part. Okay. And we let you be unleashed. Okay.

We unleashed and thank you for the... The title of this episode is Unleashed. Awesome. Unleashed with Dr. Orner-Gro. Or what was it? Except Otherness? Yes. I like that as well.

Maybe it's a slasher. It's a slasher film. It's part one, except otherness, part two. Unleashed. Also, I just wanted you to know that we did not come in with the intent of you're going to sit here and listen to us unpack. But I'm happy we got the opportunity to do it. Yeah, that's what we do. Thank you for indulging us just a little bit.

As two people who have considered a couple's therapy. I am more reserved. And I cop to that, I feel. He is more reserved. And we have, and yes, I think Matt was also, was about to say that, like, we are two people who have given a lot of thought to doing, like, in the professional sense, like, the couple's therapy,

which apparently is very common among podcast co-hosts. What do you mean? There's a lot of, there are just a lot of, like, duos, front-facing, like, public-facing duos. Yeah. End up finding some sort of, like, analytical space for them to, like, work out Oh, I'm super interested

But also best friends I mean we were saying Like it's like when you When we were just best friends in our 20s And we started to start this podcast together for fun When you're like Hey do you want to do this fun thing with me You're not thinking

Hey do you want to be in 12 years time counting My business partner The person that I'm relying on Also my best friend The person I'm next to one stage The person who has to you know answer that email You know what I mean It's just a really

A work husband Transform it yes transformative, all-encompassing, important relationship. I would love to hear about that. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Interesting.

I'll invite you when I have my podcast. Yeah. Well, it's funny because it's then my therapist says, I don't think that you guys need it because we do communicate like well. But mediator was used. We use the word mediator if we just can't. I can't agree one day. Court mandated.

Just kidding. This has been sublime for me. Me too. Me as well. It's been such a pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much. It really is an endlessly fascinating show. And I mean, that's just one way to describe it.

I mean, it's just, it really nourishes me to watch it. And again, it makes me excited to be in my own therapy. I don't know if that means I'm a performative nightmare, but it really does. does. Awesome. Thank you. We end every episode with a song. What am I going to sing? I have an idea, but it's just the instrumental. It just can't be loud because

of Nico. Of course. Hold on. Also, our tones of voice have been it's usually much more of a gay scream. But this has to be a gay coup because of Nico, because I know this is how you speak to them. Okay, here we, and hopefully we all get it. Okay. Here we go.

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Is this the couples therapy theme? It's the couples therapy theme. Oh, my God. I was fascinated by the way he positioned his mouth. I know. This was familiar to me and I was like, wait, what is it?

I failed. I failed. Oh, oh, oh, oh. For more of this stream, couples therapy. May 15th, it's out. Bye. Awesome. Lost Culture Rees is the production by Will Ferrell's

Big Money Players and Iheart Radio Podcasts. Created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. executive produced by Anna Hosnii and produced by Becker Ramos. Edited and mixed by Doug Bame. And our music is by Henry Kiberski. Hey guys, it's us. The Jonas Brothers. I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick. And guess what? We created our own podcast called, Hey Jonas.

We invented a podcast? Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. We're the first people to do podcasts. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it. But, you know, tired and sick. tired and sick listen to hey jonas on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast just listen we don't care where you hear it another podcast from some s nl late night comedy guy not quite unhumor me with robert smigle and friends me and hilarious guests from jim gaffigan to bob

odin kirk to daviderman help make you funnier this week my guest s n l's mikey day and headwriter streeter sidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter there's that more singer In the group. The worst? Yeah. Me. Is there anything to the idea that because you're from Harvard, you only got in because your parents made a huge donation.

The group. The yard herds, right? That's the name. The Harvard yard, but they're open. Do you have a name suggestion? We're open. Since you guys are middle aged. One erection.

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and Friends on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. you get your podcast. Cuba me. I need some jokes to make me seem funny. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Kunky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called The 1021 Podcast.

I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers. We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why are we all so obsessed with romance? On the Radio 831 podcast, join us,

Sanjana Basker and Tyler McCall, as we unpack all the trending tropes, fuzzy adaptations, book talk drama, and celebrity love stories with hot takes and sharp guests. Each episode digs into what they, These stories reveal about desire, fantasy, identity, and how we love now. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.