Last Podcast On The Left - Blue Book: 1961 - An Interview with James Tynion IV

Episode Date: December 30, 2022

Ben, Henry, and Marcus sit down with renowned comic book writer James Tynion IV (Something is Killing the Children, The Nice House on the Lake, The Department of Truth, Batman, Powers...) to discuss his new Dark Horse series "Blue Book", his research on The Betty and Barney Hill case, the inspiration behind "The Department of Truth", writing in the world of Batman, as well as a sneak peek at the upcoming Last Podcast x Dark Horse project "Operation Sunshine". For Live Shows, Merch, and More Visit: www.LastPodcastOnTheLeft.comKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Last Podcast on the Left ad-free, plus get Friday episodes a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

There's no place to escape to. This is the last podcast. On the left. That's when the cannibalism started. It's her Christmas special. Put your clothes on, Dad. Welcome to the last podcast on the left, everyone. I am Ben hanging out with Henry and Marcus.

We have a very special episode for you today. We are going to be joined by a fella. He's authored many, many books. but two of them are Blue Book. You do that with Dark Horse and Department of Truth, which I've heard Marcus mentioned many, many times. It's one of his ultimate favorites. It's my favorite book in the shells right now.

We're joined by James Tinihani and the fourth. Thanks for me, James. Dude. Thanks a much for having me. Thank you. And this is not just some cross promotional opportunity. All right? And anybody who says different,

I will physically attack them in their home in front of their family. It seems like a cross promotional opportunity. But no, James Tinnian, who has become a good friend. You and Marcus, you guys are all friends. Yeah, we're friends and shit. Right? Or is that too far?

No, no, no, no. We're friends. We're friends. Okay. He came to my going away party in New York City. We're friends. Good, good, good. And it's one of the more difficult people to become friends with the comic book.

I'm not going to say nerd, author. Because they can oftentimes reject love. Let me put that on James first. James, is that true? Do comic book authors reject love or community? Oh, we're getting right into the real shit here. Yeah. Absolutely. But I try to keep my heart open to love as often as I can.

Single? Oh, yes. Wow, I have a chance. But for those of you that don't know, James is one of the most talented artists in comic books right now. Writers. But I view writers as artists. Okay, yes, but we must make the distinction if we're talking about comic books here. I forget.

Also, yeah, why don't you draw? I'm right there. Yeah, great. I'm really, really bad. That's the main reason. Do you draw out little pictures? Like when you write, I mean this, as fellow writers of comic books. Yes.

Because like, so cross promotional, we're talking about your new book, which is a series of anthology comics for Dark Horse called Blue Book, which is all about like tales of aliens. But is it just going to be UFOs and aliens or is it going to be a wider scope as well? So the, like, the main thread in every issue is, are UFO stories? but then I'm running what I'm calling like true weird tales in the backups which are, that's where we're going and down all sorts of fun

rabbit holes. I fucking love it. I love it. And cryptids and hauntings and, you know, spontaneous human combustion, all that. Anomalous phenomena. Yeah, that's wrap it up. And so we are also promoting our very first comic book for Dark Horse, which is called

Operation Sunshine that Marcus and I have been working on. Kisle actually threw some good ideas in there too. Absolutely. I'll yell a whole bunch of shit. But as a comic book writer, like, so this is a thing that Marcus and I, like, as we go, like, how do you properly translate your vision from, like, the page to an artist? Like, do you just lean on the artist to run with it? Like, is that the thing you're like, where they say in movies, like, it's good casting does all the work where it's like, essentially you, if you have the right person, it doesn't matter. Or do you draw out little things? Like, we had one little sequence in our recent book that I drew out like a layer style, like the layout.

of like a layer, like a map, and so they could use it. There have definitely been moments where I just don't have the words for what I'm trying to express and I need to like do a horrifying doodle that tries to express it. But most of the time, like, I do try to lean on my artist quite a bit. Like what I try to do is at the start of every project, I like, I write like a crazy long document that's basically talking about like the vibes of the story. like the core ideas and all of the things that influenced me and all of that. And then we have a bunch of back and forth conversations before we're even talking about

the plot. And then like once, so once they're up and running, I'll sort of, you know, I'll set the emotional stage for the scene. But like page to page, my, my, my panel descriptions are usually pretty, pretty short. Like it's, you know, it's more like, here's the character, here's their emotions. This is what they're doing next. So this is what real writers do. I think that. that's good. I suppose that makes sense because at some point you want them to create what they want to create because otherwise they're going to loathe you if you give too much detail. They're like, I'll fucking come up with this. It's fine. Calm down. Oh, yeah. But that's always

the legend of like Alan Moore's writing in comic books, which Alan Moore is, you know, widely consider to be the greatest comic book writer of all time. His scripts, every single panel is painstakingly described down to every tiny little detail. His comic book scripts for a 22-page comic will run well over 100 pages. But then if you're the artist, I feel like it's just paint by numbers. Yeah. That's not as fun. What do you think? What do you think? The fourth, Mr. The fourth?

I think that like the, you know, when you're working with Alan Moore, you kind of like, you're, you know what you're getting into. But it is one of those things where the, like, I've read some of those scripts and they're kind of stream of consciousness in this really,

really wonderful way. Like, yes, he does break down like all of the little pieces. But he's also telling, like, the artist, like, what he's thinking about and all of that. It's almost like he's, you know, just dictating every thought he has about the comic. And he's just, like, letting the artist absorb that. I'm sure there are artists who hated that. And I'm sure there are artists who absolutely love that. But, yeah, no, like, that is one of the cool things about comics is that as long as the, you know, script is just a sort of letter to the artist where they get to absorb and interpret everything.

I like I like to lean on letting the artist interpret like as much as they can because you know I got into this crazy business because I just want a bunch of cool comic book art and I like now at the point where I just get to hire and like collaborate with a bunch of my favorite artists and then I just want to see them draw cool shit Have you ever so cool

Have you ever had to fire an artist because they're putting hidden penises in their work? This is a great way to leave the conversation. I saw this with Disney. there was a person he circled all the penises. We know this story. It's like, look at all the dicks. It's in a coral and little mermaid. It's weird.

See, I usually hire them for more work once I discover the hidden penises. Great, great. Well, I mean, speaking to artists that you know that you get to work with, I mean, for your new book for, for Blue Book, like, you get to work with Michael Avaun Oming for to tell the Betty and Barney Hill story. And Oming's a fucking amazing. He did Powers back in the 90s. Oh, I love powers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So, like, did you request him specifically? Or was there something about his work that you thought would, was there something about his work that you thought like this is the guy to tell the Betty and Barney Hill story? But before we get to that, do you want to give a quick refresh entry on what the Betty and Barney Hill story is? Betty and Barney Hill, they are an interracial couple, I believe from, I think upstate New York. I may be incorrect. They went in New Hampshire. New Hampshire. They were one of the first cases of alien abduction that became widely known.

It's kind of where we saw the first, like, besides Whitley Streber, like descriptions of grays. They were both, all of the traditional steps of an abduction were seen the first time in the Betty and Barney Hill story. Yeah. So what was it about Oming that you thought would be perfect for this? Well, like, honestly, it was very simple. I had started working on Department of Truth. And I... Which we'll get to.

Trust me. Yeah. But, like, I started becoming friendly with Oming because he was a big UFO nerd. And, like, in particular, he read, I think it was issue seven. of DOT, which is where I dug into men in black and I kind of dealt with UFO lore as part of the larger ideas behind Department of Truth. And so we started going back and forth. And when I had the opportunities to fund the Blue Book series, it was like, this is the person who I wanted to work with. And, you know, I originally thought we were going to try to do something like way further

down the line. But I wanted to just like, you know, a few, like wild hairs had like popped up in the, like, you know, and I wanted to like try my hand at adapting a story rather than just like coming up with it. I wanted to work on something that was like functionally nonfiction. And then beyond that, I was like in digging more and more into like 40 and stories and like esoterica of all kinds for DOT, I kept noticing the fact that a lot of these stories aren't as accessible as they used to be. When I was coming up, when I was growing up, it was like right during the like X-Files boom in the early 90s. And there were all of these like nonfiction books in nonfiction maybe in quotes with like in my middle school library about like UFO encounters.

That's how I got into it. It's all the same. Because we grow up with it during that time period. And then it was everywhere. The satanic panic actually allowed us to get a hold of all of this like cool material because it was supposed to be a warning for children and shit like that. but it was just all, it was just books of pentagrams. Yeah.

And it was amazing. And it was just like, and it like all of that stuff seeped into me. And it became so much of like, the creative force of like, it made me fascinated in like in all things strange. And I wanted to like tap into those original stories, particularly the ones that,

you know, I felt had a real deep impact on kind of the folklore of like UFO. Like, like, everything UFOs. Because that is. That is such a keystone story, the Betty and Barty Hill story. Now, when you go to tell that story, what is the direction of Blue Book? Is it sort of pulpy? Or are you digging deep? Is it the opposite? Like, are you doing something where you're trying to portray the humanity of what happened? Or are you just going for like, I'm telling a cool ass alien

story? I wanted to strip it down pretty, like I wanted to tell the story as directly as I could. which is hard because it's something where it's a story that contradicts itself in like seven different places. But she saw the constellations. She saw the Star Map. I want to tell you, after he finishes, I want to ask about the Star Maps. The Star Maps is a point of contention, but please continue. But I mean, like, that's really what I wanted to tap into was the, like, the way the whole idea started was just, at first I just wanted to tell the early part, like, of their story.

Their initial encounter, which they're recounting of that initial encounter has always stayed pretty pretty firm. Like there are a couple of little things. Like does he get a gun at one point that differs in the, you know, he gets the gun in one of the tellings and then he never uses the gun. But then like, you know, I wanted to like weave all of these threads together and see if I could tell like a fairly linear story. that just like, you know, that just kind of encapsulates the whole thing. And so we do it over five issues, like 20 pages each. And it's the full life of mostly Betty Hill. Yes, because she went on to become an important figure on the, like the UFO circuit.

She did a lot of lectures. She was the one to really put the story forward because Barney Hill was, if you do believe the circumstances of his illnesses, the fact that he was given these dickworts by these aliens. and that his body was destroyed by whatever the hell it is. They snaked up there to make him orgasm so hard in a way that was terrible. That's the only thing. That's what really scares me about it.

It's the super hard, painful orgasm that you are supposed to do again and again while they're all staring at you. How do you go back to Betty? You know, like now, every time you go back to go being with Betty, all you sees the gray with the little thin straw up your dick under your balls. You can think about anything in your head. I just don't say it out loud. You know, that'll help.

That would help for sure. That's a great piece of merch, though. I got abducted my aliens all I got with these big old dick warts. I mean, that's, save it. Save it. All right. It's actually past the holiday season. We're going to wait for summer.

Live from your play. So now that you dug in to the story, where do you stand on it? Well, specifically what I want to ask you about is the star map, because that's one of the things that I always found fascinating about the Betty. Barney Hill's story. You want to roll it out for the people that don't remember who didn't do the fucking homework? Didn't do the fucking homework. Yeah, apparently like Betty Hill was shown a

star map while she was on the alien spaceship that shows like, this is where we are. You know, you don't have basically them saying like, you don't have a reference for where we are, but this is where we are. It's like being shown. They were blowing the dome off of Barney's cock and they showed her a map. Yeah, man.

Because she was already well serviced by Barney. Yeah. But she was able to later reproduce this map and it turned out that the map pointed towards Zeta reticuli I believe was where it was it where it pointed towards and that's where people look at this story and say well there's some truth to this because this woman is not an astronomer she does not know have any sort of a background experience in astronomy but then of course

fucking Carl Sagan had it come out whatever he didn't know well at least he was imaginative he's not like Neil deGrasse Tyson he's a reductivist Yeah, and he's not like Joe Nickel, who's just a straight-up dickhead. Yeah. Who I still like because of how big of a dickhead he is. Great. But what Carl Sagan said is that that map that Betty Hill drew could be pretty much placed anywhere on a star map and it could match up to something. What do you think?

Do you think it's more Carl Sagan or do you think that maybe there's something to Betty's... Judgment now! I think in all things, like, you know, I'm a natural skeptic, but I have a deal. fascination with all all of this. So it's one of those things where I, like, you know, like it's, it's compelling. It's a very compelling, like piece of this. And there are definitely, there are a handful of people. I forget the names like a handful of astronomers who have said that it's just like,

actually it is very unlikely that she would get at this, this exact. But I mean, I do think that the Carl Sagan point is very compelling. But it is, you know, like. For me, so much of it is just in this, you know, it's about what happens when somebody encounters something that they just cannot explain and the stories they tell from it. Because that element of it feels so powerful and so universal. And it's like so many. And the fact that this story and like more than so many others has burned itself into like our consciousness and the way we tell stories about aliens. all of that deeply fascinates me.

So it's like, it's almost like I am open to everything happening as literally as possible, but it's also, it doesn't lose any of its fascination to me if it did. I feel like that's what the unpacking the esoteric, well, reminds me a lot of, so I do Jungian therapy, which is some people say it doesn't mean it's not helping. But I do young Ian therapy and partially it's like, you know, we talk about my day to day, but like, you know, when I have dreams, she's like, a nice session is done. like we can rip through the dream for an hour. But there's something that feels like that when you unpack the esoteric is that it's like

when you were searching for details from a dream that you had, where you actually, this thing happens to you. And then as you are slowly ruminating over it, you walk down alleyways, which I, this is where the one sign, the cynical skeptic says like, oh, you're just making it up, right? Which I do understand that. I understand that feeling. But the actual, I feel like opens skeptic, understands that your brain can, examine something. It's also like when you're tripping.

Like if you notice, have you ever seen something, I've never seen something photorealistically in front of me when I'm tripping. But I have seen things that then I then have chased down in my brain to sort of give shape to. And that seems like a lot of what happens in these types of people who experience a phenomenon. No, and I think the dream comparison is so, so direct. Because it's just like when you have a dream and then the next day when you are telling the story of the dream, you are creating. connections that 100%

did not exist while you were having the dream. The dream was like it's a bunch of powerful emotions and like little moments that are set as scenes that then... Some is plot. A lot of its vibe. It's like writing a comic book where it's mostly vibe and then you're trying to explain

vibe after the fact of it's that thing of like I was at my mom's house but it wasn't my mom's house but I knew that it was my mom's house. Exactly. And it's just like and in that you sort of understand that the the aspect of storytelling that is just your brain making sense and making a connection. The fact that there is a part of your brain that can just tell you the information that this is your mom's house without it looking like your mom's house without it having any of the aspects of your mom's house.

But your brain makes that connection so powerfully that it is one of those things where it's just like you encountered a being. And it's just like every description you give of the being is different. And it's like, are they wearing little hats? Are they in little uniforms? Are they walking around naked? Are they like, do they, how many limbs do they have? And it's just like it's different every single time you approach it because it's like when you're like giving voice to something that does not have like any.

Coral form. Yeah. Yes. And of course, when you're at your mom's house, you tend to have massive orgasms. That's really what Barney taught us. I actually am physically unable to. orgasm at home. Really? Isn't that something?

I don't do that. You can write that down in a book, James. Sometimes, and I'm not even joking about this, I went masturbated in the car. Oh, my God, so much worse. That's illegal. Well, it's far worse. I put a blanket over. It's in the garage. Well, anyway.

It's far worse. Well, James, speaking to our last point. You know, you're talking, like, I feel like, let's move on to Department of Truth here. Well, I just have one question, though, James. When you're talking about something that's real like with Barney and Betty Hill, at the very least, again, real to the degree and alter their entire life. Did you get any pushback when you're talking about real life people?

Was anyone with the Betty or Barney Hill Institute? I don't know. Where they're like, this is completely wrong. Like when you're dealing with someone, because, I mean, you're telling their story. Did anyone get upset? So far, no. But I mean, I think at this point, the benefit with a story like Betty and Barney Hill, and this is also part of why I gravitated towards that story.

It's a story that's been told in many different places that, including, like, newspapers and magazines that I got, you know, my hands on the original. I think it was Look magazine. Yes. And, like, you know, those magazines are fucking huge, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I have a convenient magazine to come. No, my storage unit. I have a pile of them.

Someone sent us once the last podcast a long time ago. And I have that fucking stack of these UFO. I haven't gotten through it because, again, they take up. so much room. Yeah. I didn't where to put them. But I tried to make sure that I was drawing from many different sources. Like I didn't have a single primary source.

I did, you know, reference the, like I went and looked at, you know, the interrupted journey was probably my favorite that I read. Like in the, in, out of everything that I read. But I also made sure that, like, I didn't pull directly from the transcripts. Like, none of that direct. dialogue is in that just because I didn't want to step on the like step on the rights, but I wanted to capture the gist of it all. Oh, sure. That has been retold many different times.

So it's just like it's something that, you know, I wanted to approach this the same way I would if I was telling a story about, you know, a real event, like not a like a more traditionally, like, journalistically, you know, verifiable event that had happened in the 60s. I would pull from many sources. I wouldn't pull from a single source. So like... Like the Sandy Hook issue you're going to do is going to be so fucking, like very carefully done. But yeah, also interesting.

Well, I don't know. I mean, speaking of that point, like Department of Truth, the book that I really, the book that, where basically I, you know, discovered your work just by seeing it on, on the shelves. And I read Department of Truth and I got to the end of it. And my first thought was like, this guy knows his shit. guy absolutely knows of shit. And then I went to find you on Instagram.

I was like, oh, fuck, he already follows me. All right, great. Let's start talking about this stuff. Yeah, yeah, you're going to catch you up. Yeah, I'm going to catch you. He knows. But for me, like, you know, talking about dreams and all that, like, for me, like, I feel like Department of Truth is a book that's really about the nature of reality and what people

make of it and what governments make of it. And to give a bit of a synopsis of it, I hope I can give a synopsis of this without getting too many spoilers because it's a book that unfolds so. beautifully. It's a book about conspiracy in which the conspiracy within the conspiracy unfolds so slowly and so fucking masterfully that you wonder

whether this is actually reality. It's like basically a, the Department of Truth is a department within the government that basically handles conspiracy but handles conspiracy as if every conspiracy is actually real, but I also don't

want to spoil why they're real. Or what happens? That's some issue one stuff, so I don't mind if you're like a... Yeah, it's like basically flat earth is real, but flat earth is real because people believe that flat earth is real. Not because flat earth, not because the earth is actually flat is the idea that if enough people believe that the earth is flat, then the earth will become flat and the earth will have always been flat. And so there's a... Someone has to fight against the belief. Yes.

And it's anti the Tinkerbell syndrome. Yes. Where you have to do the concept that all of it, it's like that. Just the, your creation of it in your mind allows it to be objectively real. And the, and the main character of the book is a guy who was a satanic panic child. Like, who had been in the satanic panic and had it basically created a creature of his own. A homunculus. A homunculus.

Yeah, were created like, little penny. His own sort of creature. Little penny. That's how I understand. Little penny. That is true, though. But going through the, and working on that style of project, because, you know, like, you look at Great Morrison. It talks about when he worked on the, when he was working on his, like, magnum opus, he was experiencing things because he was putting magic ritual, like, in his works and both, do you find when you're playing with your own ideas of objective reality?

Like, like, I know that it's obviously, it's a creative endeavor, but I feel like in your brain, you're still kind of putting yourself in the headspace of imagining this, literally, that what you imagine. is real because I do believe that. I believe that anything that has been imagined at some point in some way, shape, or in some fashion is real somewhere, someplace, right? But did it affect your fucking life? Nice. But yeah, did it fuck with your life? Did it like, did it have real world implications?

I think it, like, the biggest real world implications is that it made me really fucking cynical. Like, you know, it's one of those things where I, I, I, I, like because I cover it from all angles. I cover it from the like, you know, the weirdest satirica, um, and,

you know, deep dives into, you know, UFOs. I, we, we have a two-parter about Bigfoot that I'm very proud of. I don't know if I ever told you,

I fucking loved your Bigfoot two-parter. It's like one of the, it's one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read about Bigfoot in my life. He's a lonely character. Well, it's about a Bigfoot hunter and that's why it's great. Yeah. No.

And I wanted to like, And in digging into those stories and especially the human stories of people's lives who are, like, can be destroyed when they, like, fully succumb to an idea that's just outside the fabric of everyone's reality. But it's like it was those stories and then also the stories of, you know, just the ways in which our government is like, you know, shaped and can, like, policed its own history. and the way that history is told to us. And it's happened around the same time as like, you know, I travel a lot internationally for work now just going to different conventions and I work with a lot of international artists. And it really just sharpens the fact that it's like, oh, yeah, yeah. Like most of like history as taught to Americans was like a like propaganda effort for, you know.

For generations. and then like when the Soviet Union ended, then they stopped like, you know, it's like they took the wheel off the car and then it's still driving. The car's still driving, but nobody's like directing it in certain ways, but it's,

you know, which is more like honestly more chaotic and more fucked up. So it's just the- We need to bring back the NWO is what you're saying. I say this all the time. We're in desperate need of the Illuminati. Yeah, no, I mean,

that is like kind of the horrifying realization, which is like, total, like, oh, in a world where it's just like, that no two people believe the same version of the world is a terrifying world. And it's just like, but it's very, like, that is the most individualistic world that that you can build where everyone is like fully manifested into themselves. It's just it can't cohere. But then what you have to do to cohere a giant group of people is like, tell them a

fictional story that inevitably like fucks a whole bunch of people. over. And it's just like, it's terrifying. I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ in seven days. Five days? Oh, my lordy. What, uh, who is the hottest nerds out of all the cons you've been to? Jesus. This is why this is episode is out for everyone because it's for like we're going to have our conversation. And then Kisle's asking the real questions that the real listener wants to know. Some of my guys, brain. Well, I will say the, the most attractive comic book creator is Jorge Amenas who draws

Drew Batman when I wrote Batman And it's just like, if you ever go to his Instagram, it's just like he'll dress up like Superman sometimes and it's just like, yeah, no, that's, that tracks. I got that for you. James wrote Batman for how many years, 10 years?

Yeah, about 10 years. Yeah, he wrote Batman for 10 years. Do you got any Batman questions for him? Yeah, I have a lot of Batman questions. Of course, now, oh my God, James. He is impossible. This is how we're trying to reach him. It's possible. We're trying to bring him in.

Yeah. If Batman could go back in time and save his parents, would he do it? Oh, boy. I mean, yes, I think he would. But then it would create like some, you know, like weird time fragment that, like, would then come and start destroying the future. And then when he defeated that in the present, he would have to, like, it would go back and, like, he'd have to accept, like, his parents' loss.

But he has to kill his own parents. He has to kill his parents. He'd shoot Thomas and Martha in the fucking face. Yeah. All right. Also, follow a question. You won't pitch that. That's a good.

That's a good multiverse. Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne, who has more money? Oh, but Batman because it's like, Batman can put, I mean, like, Batman funded, like, the Justice League Watchtower. And I mean, I guess Tony Stark, like, built a skyscraper in the middle of Manhattan. But people do that in real life. I don't know. That's a question I want to ask you to roll around your head.

Because this actually what I do is. I actually have brought this up several times on the show. And you were a person that it's like your head's been in this space for a long time. Why have we not seen an actual person attempt to be Batman? Like why have we not seen? We did in Seattle. No, but that was like low rent. It was like that's what I think about like a rich guy.

Yeah. Like rich guys are not strong. I just feel like they could have spent so much money to put. Bezos is getting cut. Yeah, but he's tiny. He's ediel. I know, but I don't really understand why we've not had one guy want to make these things real. Oh, yeah. No, I think about that a lot. I mean, I think it's mostly that they would die immediately. Yeah, you just get killed because you get shot in the head. My final Batman question, nipples or no nipples on the suit, because I watched the George Clooney one, which is just, it's whatever, but he got big old nipples. Yeah. But then the Keaton one, very small nipples.

And then the most recent Batman's no nipples at all. He's serious. So what do we want? What do we want here? I accept bat nipples or no, like I like a Batman that changes his costume every now and then. So sometimes he can get the nipples out, but he doesn't have to. Okay. So maybe if it's wintertime, he's got nipples.

Like culturally, when we need Batman to have nipples, they'll be there for us. All right. So, I mean, speaking of Batman, like you wrote Batman for for 10 years. you wrote a ton of great runs. But, you know, this, like, you left Batman this summer, like to, it was actually treated as a pretty big deal, like in the, the comics industry. Like, but it's, and it seems like the books that you right now, you know, the stuff like Department of Truth, a nice house on the left, which is also, fucking.

On the lake. Congratulations for the Eisner on that, by the way. Thank you very much. Yeah, man, you're collected them now. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a whole line of them up on the show. Two time, two time, two time.

Two time. or award winner. So it seems like the books that you write that are your own property are horror books. Like it was horror something that you just kind of wanted to do all the long? Oh, absolutely. Like, I mean, I did my, like, you know, when I was in college, I did like my, my, my minor was in film studies and I did a whole thing on like international horror movies. Like, like, horror as a genre has like always really been really important. important to me. And part of it's because when I was a kid, it scared the shit out of me.

Like I was the kid, like I would walk down the horror aisle at Blockbuster, but I wouldn't make eye contact with any of the videos because then I would have horrifying nightmares. And it wasn't until I was in like late high school, early college that I realized that the nightmares I was having about those covers was much scarier than what was in. And then it was a year later that I realized that if I wrote down those, like if I structured and wrote that down and then turned it in a writing workshop, people in. enjoyed them. Well, that's interesting. I didn't realize that you went to Gleine Maxwell

University as well where everyone gets a minor. Hello. Just lastly, lastly, when it comes to Batman, because obviously now you're doing your own stuff. You're not even asking about the questions that we were asking about that. I gave,

I opened the floodgates and told him he could ask any Batman question you want. I'm open. I'm open. I have a great Gleine Maxwell joke. They gives me a question. When you're working for IP like that, how much you, is it nice and refreshing? that you get to create your own stuff. Like,

because I can imagine like you write something about Batman and then someone's like, yeah, not the way Batman would do it. And then you have to be like, fucking all right, fine. Yeah, you're right.

Like, what, I mean, is it nice? Is it more liberating now? Oh, 100%. Like,

there's no comparison. Like, there's an obvious thrill getting to play with characters that, you know, the whole world loves. And, you know,

like, there's, there is something like, so thrilling. Yeah. Yeah. Like that, that I'll always be grateful that I've had, I had that opportunity.

But nothing is better than people connecting to something that you and like a couple of, like you and your, like, the artist friends that I have like created from whole cloth. Yeah. And, you know, and then you get to rely on your own instincts. And that like, honestly, the most gratifying thing in the last few years. And this was part of why I left Batman is it's just I, my independent book started out selling Batman. at a few key moments during the year. And it was like that was the moment that I was like,

I could sign on to like continue my DC exclusive, continue like another few years writing Batman, or I can go all in. And I knew I could be cool. And I was just like that was the moment I was ready to go all in. That's really fucking awesome when your work starts to outsell Batman. That's pretty awesome. Fucking cool.

And to be clear, it wasn't like outselling it every single month. It was like, no, It would be in the league through the year it was like, you know, the sales went up.

That's fucking awesome. No, that's so cool. Was there any specific moments that you remember that you were told no? Like, did you pitch something for Batman? Is there anything that you were like, you pitched it for Batman? And they're like, no.

Like, what was the one with that? Oh, yeah. Wasn't the big one? Was that Batman couldn't go to eat pussy? So that wasn't changed. That wasn't you, right? No. Yeah, yeah.

That was the Harley Quinn animated series. Yeah, yeah. That then, like, someone at DC was stupid enough to let a like a real quote out into the world. Where I don't know. Yeah. No, I mean, like for me, the big shit that like a lot of times it was like the most minor and like it was like you would build a whole story around a character that you would find out like two

issues into writing that you couldn't use that character. So that character was suddenly going to be pulled out of your story halfway through and going to show up in another another writer's book. And that happened a lot when I was, especially when I was starting out, because it was like, I ended my 10 years on Batman on the title Batman, but it's like I started out on a bunch of the side books focused on like, you know, when you're doing like the fourth most important Batman title, then the other three titles get to like, they're getting Joker. Right.

They're getting Riddler. You can't use those guys. You're doing a lot of Mr. Zaz stories. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And like, and honestly, the, you know, my, my, my last Batman run, I. I, like, you know, they, like, I got a lot of attention because I was creating a lot of new characters for it. But part of the reason I was doing that was so nobody could tell me I couldn't do things.

Yeah, I'm just sick of dealing with IP. That's great. You ended up creating something like Punchline is such a great addition to the, the Batman universe. Like, it's very cool. Yeah. James can I ask you. All right. So you write all these horror things trying to scare us so much.

What scares you? Why are you so scared? What's so scary about your, you're? brain and it's going on side of your fucking mind that you decided to put it on us. Oh, God. I mean, like, like, Department of Truth is really the, like, the one that lays

out all of the shit I'm most scared about in the world right now. That is the one where... Thought viruses run among us is one of those things that you can't, because again, you can't really talk about spoilers of the book, but it's true. Like, we're watching, you know,

not to get too into the weeds here, but I think that what we saw on January 6, 2021. It was the ultimate example of a LARP going real. Like, you know, that was a thought. It was like a thought on the internet and that it then made itself real. And then the people that were a part of it barely understood that they had a thought virus. And that's the reason why when they went, they didn't tear the building apart.

They were just as confused that they got there as anybody else. And then once they arrived, they're taking pictures and acting like they're visiting because they didn't understand that they just try to take over the government. Oh, I don't know. Yes. I mean, but there was bad actors. There was bad actors, right? That's the problem. The bad actors were writing everybody.

All the morons. Like, and right now, a lot of the bad actors, they're not even particularly smart. They just, like, they're good at fanning the flames, where it's just like letting people lean into what they're naturally afraid of and all of this stuff and just dialing everything up to 11. And I mean, like, this is the thing that scares me so much about the modern world is we're living in a time where, like, bad ideas can spread faster than we understand their impact on the world.

And it's just, like, you can see, you know, it is this, like, kind of memetic, like, you know, dangerous ideas spread very, very quickly in the current environment on the internet and all of this stuff. And it's just like, you know, when I remember being a kid and the internet seemed like this big, wonderful place that was going to, like, open all of these. doors. Oh yeah, I went to Epcot. I remember what you. Epcot sold as a line of horseship. Oh, yeah.

And it's just like we've seen like, oh, no, no, no. If you open all of those doors, it's just chaos. And it's like, you know, but the, like, to shut all those doors would be horrible now. So it's just like, where does that leave us? And it's like that tension is like at the heart of a lot of the different books that I do. It's like, all of my books are like all about the horror of just like, living in the modern world and like feeling kind of powerless in the face of it, but still needing to like, you know, conduct yourself like, you know, to some degree like in a moral or like upstanding way. And it's just, yeah, you know, it's, yeah. Well, I mean, that's that's, that's, that's,

that the idea of like the fear of the unknown because, uh, your other book, uh, nice house on the lake, which again, I can't recommend enough. Like it's, you know, basically a group of friends get brought to a house on a lake by one of their other friends and then the world ends around them. And then they have to figure it out from there. Why are we here? Why do this person bring us here? What are we doing here? What's the point of all this? It's fucking terrifying. Yeah, it's like dreams. Those are like, that's like again, it's a dream. It's a dream I've had. I've had those types of scenarios. It's very, very scary. Yeah. So is that also working that the idea of like just the unknown part of what can the world, what can, what can

happen to the world around you? Yeah, and it's just the fact that things that you don't understand can still have such huge impact on your life. And then the scarier thing is that understanding them does not change your ability to, like, you know, like make it better. That's the most terrifying part of Nice House is when they start to understand it and it doesn't matter. Yeah, that's a, well, that I think is kind of a, that's a very big, like,

center of the esoteric movement is just that concept of people are people are really afraid of that I think it's why they're afraid to get into the lines of thoughts that take you into these weird alleyways because they're really afraid that they'll get to the end of the understanding and still be fucked yeah right that you still go to and try to understand you try to throw yourself into these scenarios and then all right I did all this legwork and I still of nowhere I still don't know like it doesn't matter me now I understand but it doesn't change anything yeah about me and it's like well I feel like partially it's like that's the that's kind of more, how do you get out of an existential crisis like that?

And that you kind of have to let it change you. You do have to, because to me in real life, the issue is that the understanding should change you. But we're all really holding on to our fucking paradigms, right? Because I like my fucking pumas, man. I got these new pumas on. And I like these. And so I can't give up the fucking paradigm because the paradigm led to me to fucking get these cool-ass poomas. Well, and the more you learn, the more questions you have.

I see you're from Milwaukee. One thing that's interesting, I went to school at Milwaukee. Did, speaking of paradigm shifts, do you ever go to Landmark Lans? Oh, yes. Yeah. Now, this is one of the best places ever. It's a bowling alley. It has three fucking bars and an arcade.

It is the greatest. We went there after we did our show at the Papps Theater. Oh, shit. I love that place. That was actually one of my favorite drinking experiences in America on tour. I love that. When you're super stressed, you can always just go to Landmark Lans. Yeah.

Get a spotted cow. Oh, yeah. Now, I love me some new glareous. brewery. I love New Yorker. I love spotted cow. Well, now we deal with, because people ask us all the time, how do you cleanse your brain? Like when you are doing

these processes and you're working these like, these like heavy, like, what do you do that's like throw away? Like I'm going to talk about inside stories this week because I'm obsessed with this story, this show called knife and death. Knife and death? We're talking about an inside stories today, but it's like it's knifing competitions with the guys from Forged and Fire.

Okay, that sounds fucking cool. I love Forged and Fire, man. It's people who should not be physically moving on camera. And now they're the center of the story. Like, it's fantastic. But what do you do? Like, how do you blow off steam? Do you just like, do you have a big dick-sucking machine?

Or are you like, hmm? Yeah, so there's the big dick-sucking machine. But I mean, so, like, honestly, the, like, this feels like such a cheap answer. But the real thing is, is the way I cleanse my system is I write these comic books. Yeah. Like, it is just like it's taking all of the abstract, like, anxiety in my head and it's just channeling it out into, into projects that I think look beautiful and all that.

That, like, you know, it short circuits the part of my brain that, like, makes me think, oh, I should do something about some of these horrifying things. And it's just like, I'm going to make a horror comic book. You be surprised. I feel like you're bringing more to the table making art necessarily, unless you're like, I feel like there's the difference between, like, there are people that are artists, activists,

that do like straight up activism mix with their art but there's something this activism term is getting a little bit overused by the way I see a lot of people's profiles where they just add the word activist now

and I'm like I know you and you're not yes we know that you do five tweets a day that's not on the thumbs I am like in the Iranian revolution I am on the front line but you could I feel like

having an art a piece of art tell these stories and these like talk about these issues on a more allegorical front really helps people. I think that it allows you to, it kind of allows it to be wrapped around. You can wrap your head around it more easily and then you don't understand that you're learning lessons.

Yeah. No, I, like, I think that that's exactly right. And, and I mean, like, I also just, you know, I'll, like, I'll watch a nice, like, animated movie or something like that. Like, you know, there, you know, there are lots of ways to just sort of, like, connect to the nice things. Like every now and then I'll build up like, you know, a lot of times what I read is a lot of like what I write. It's a lot of non-fiction is iteric shit and then like real messed up horror. And then every now and then I'll just let a stack of, you know, five YA comics build up that I've

heard are really, really fucking good. And then I'll finally sit down and read them and I'll like have a very emotional day in a really cathartic, like beautiful, wonderful way. And you know, I don't know. It's like, I like... How did someone get to the heart of James Tinian? You said you were single. How did someone get there? How does someone become the, you know, your side piece? Oh, boy.

Oh, boy. How do they get in there? How do they get into that big old head of yours? You know what I mean? Look at your head. So much room in there. It is quite large. You look like a young Francis Ford Coppola.

It is not a compliment. It is? Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Well, just my final question. I think it is. I don't know if anyone wants to do whatever.

Okay. Allegorical. Algarical. We can now learn through all these niche markets, like with Fortune Fire. You take a piece of raw steel and you make something out of it. And with when it comes and you can learn a lot of life lessons. That's alchemy. Mad in football.

You'll learn a lot of lessons. Stick-to-itiveness. And maybe you can win at the end. And comic books. You can teach a lot through your art form and things like that. So there is something really awesome about the niche markets now that people have found the best way for them to learn. And it's just I think comic books are a fucking bad, ass way to really understand the world. And have you, have you enjoyed the rise of comic books?

Because even when we were growing up, it was still a little friend, right? And now it's about, it's more mainstream than anything else. For being a nerd, right? Like, yeah. Oh, no, no, I definitely was in the days of the yet getting beat up for having my X-Men. Do you feel like comic books are in the proper position in the zeitgeist has taken seriously enough? I think they definitely have like, you know, they've risen up so much. And, you know, I, like, I say this is someone who works in, like, like Western comics, but it's just like, manga's really doing the heavy lifting there in terms of just making, like, making everyone read it. But it is something that, like, it's amazing. It's amazing to see the breadth of what comics is, like, because especially when, when I started reading

regularly, like, you know, in the early 2000s, like, when I was in, you know, high school. Like, that was the, that was when I, like, you couldn't sell a comic. book that didn't have a superhero in it. Yeah. And now we're back in a world where comics are not one type of thing. It's not just one genre that just has to dominate

everything. And I say this with like great love for superhero comics, but it's just like, I am so fucking thrilled that I could read comics like every week of the year and like read something legitimately great without having to pick up a single superhero comic.

The fact that we're getting that in this modern moment is really, really fucking cool. Yeah. I mean, on my poll list right now, I've got probably 10, 15 books, and one of them is a superhero comic, and that's it. And it's fucking great. What superhero do you like? I like the new JSA run, or at least I'm starting on the new JSA run just because I love

the Justice Society of America. Is that difference in the Justice League? Yeah. Justice Society's older. It's got a fucking league and a society, you dummy. You dumbhead. I read the first issue, and it was, yeah, it was pretty good. and then enough for me to read more.

But that's the thing is that I keep putting superhero comics on my list and then dropping them after five issues because it's just sort of the same story, getting told over and over again. But the cool thing about comics is that it's really like American comics. You mentioned like manga, like American comics, it feels like it's starting to finally catch up with the rest of the world.

Because here in America, because of the comics code authority, the whole Frederick Wortham thing that we talked about recently. Yeah, that's so weird, right? Yeah, that's how American comics came to be. superhero-centric. The rest of the world didn't do that. Yeah, because the superhero comics were really used to, you could make really great propaganda out of them. Yeah, well, you can make great propaganda and you could also do a fun, cheesy story that kids would buy. But the rest of the world,

they never got so, they didn't get as narrow as we did. Yeah, and it was never that it was only for kids. It was like, there was never the idea that the comic, like, the medium only existed for children's stories. There was one time when they made Captain America a Nazi, and that seemed to be really on the nose. No one liked it. Remember that? It was like, wasn't it in 2015? You were like, do we need Captain America to be a Nazi? What do you, just Hydra? Not necessarily a Nazi. He was hype. But is it, Hydra is Nazis. Isn't that the...

Hydra is Nazis. But they also have Nazis. That's the thing that doesn't have... That's the thing that makes any sense. Like, Hydra is the Nazis and the Nazis, but they're not actually... Twitter flashbacks from 2016. Okay. Well, we don't want to do that shit. I also want to say, so we're also doing this to promote our new book. We're coming out next year called Operation Sunshine. It's a vampire heist comic book story. And my question is, well, do you have any advice for us? We are now on issue three.

How do we get better? He's been giving us advice since soul plumber. I know. I want it audibly. I want it audibly while I have him. Just any quick hits? Any quick hits you could say? Like, so right now it's like, you know, we're building because it's like I'm following,

we're following a high structure, right? A he's movie structure, but then we're going to try to rip it apart at the end. Good. So, I mean, honestly, that would be my best advice is that. you always want, like, there's like, there are a few key things that I try to go by is while you're writing it, if at a certain point, the characters don't feel like they're naturally moving in the direction of the, like, how you outline the plot, listen to the characters, don't listen to the old document. Yes. Sometimes you have to throw out the roadmap and it's just like, it's a scary moment creatively, but it will always lead to something better creatively. Okay.

Like something is killing the children It was like I I had a very different series in mind And then just Erica Slaughter Just kept not going in the direction That I was like writing in and I was like All right, I'm following her And then now it's like this big fucking series

So yeah Listen to your characters is the big thing And then the other thing is just like You know I like don't Pull like you know And I have a feeling This isn't advice that you guys need

But it's just like Don't pull away from most visceral thing. Like it is one of those things where it's just you, like, lean into the most visceral emotion you can when it presents itself. Sometimes people kind of flinch away from those moments. And it's just like you want to land in the messy, like uncomfortable feelings because those are the ones that,

you know, I think especially comic readers, especially when they've only read superhero comics and stuff like that, when they finally like, you know, go outside of it. And then they're, like, presented with an uncomfortable feeling that they've never gotten from fiction before. It opens their brain. And, like, in this really, really powerful way that, like, you know, it's the reason why so many people are so fond of, like, the classic Vertigo comics.

It's because they would read all the superhero stuff. And then sometime when they were a teenager, they picked up the first book that just challenged them. And it's just like, those readers will remember the challenge for the rest of their life. That's so cool. Like, yeah. That's great advice. Yeah. Awesome.

James Dinian, the fourth. The four. Thank you so much for being on the show, man. It's an honor to speak with you and hope to see you. 20, 23. Yeah. And James also has a,

he wrote a story for the last comic book on the left. Yeah, bro. That's going to be coming out in February. Yeah, yeah. That's coming out soon. We got last. Thank you very much for doing that.

I work with Tyler Boss on that, who did a fucking amazing job. It did. Awesome. It's real good. And I also, I did get some advanced issues of a, Blue Book and it's fucking great.

When it comes out, everybody pick it up. You're going to love it. You're going to absolutely adore this book. It's so wonderful. Thank you so much. Live from your play. All right, everyone, there was our conversation with James Tinnion. He's smart. He's smart. Well, thank you all so much for supporting the show. And thank you so much for listening.

And if you are in the L.A. area, come and check out me, Ed Larson. We're hosting a classy night out pre-New Year's Eve party so that you can be sick for the day that New Year's Eve happens. That's going to be fine because then you get to build back up. You add that layer of reality to that, honestly, amateur night. So December 30th, check it out, get tickets at the pack website. We're going to have a whole lot of shenanigans. We got all of them, like my sisters can be there, some other people.

We're going to yell at you. It's going to be fun. Wear a suit or not. Just cover. Do we have anything else, guys? No, no, man. Do they even know it's Christmas time at all? All right.

Hail yourselves, everyone. Hail yourself, everyone. Hey, I'll again. Maguselations. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors. You can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to,

go to lastpodcastnetwork.com.