Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 270: Kurt Cobain Part II - The Ghost Train of El Duce

Episode Date: May 10, 2017

In our final chapter on the Kurt Cobain saga we explore the Cobain crime scene, address the possible participation of a scuzzo named El Duce, and give our final verdict on just what we think happened to the greatest rock star of the nineties. Myst on the Moor Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Secret of Tiki Island Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License cre

There's no place to escape to. This is the last time on the left That's when the cannibalism started It's like Curtis right here with us still isn't it? The last podcast on the left of her while I am Ben that's Marcus Parks and of course we have Henry Zabrowski Honestly, that would just be the sound of like electricity flowing through bones Like it's that's electrodes to the bottom of Kurt Skelton is Well Courtney's like kill it again. Oh my goodness. All right, we're on the curtain Courtney part two Her and Courtney it's part two come again around kids

Let the uncles tell you what grunge is and I don't mean just in the way. I treat your aunt That's not good. All right, so on Easter Sunday, April 3rd Courtney love called private investigator Tom Grant in Los Angeles Saying she was looking for a detective as someone had stolen her husband's credit card and she wanted to find out who Now if you've seen the documentary soaked in bleach You know that Tom Grant is the leading proponent of the theory that Courtney love had Kurt Cobain killed and to Tom's credit He does have a pretty good track record and is by most accounts a decent person, but regarding soaked in bleach It is not particularly well done and it's particularly trash. Now. What is it? What is it with private investigators?

It's never a promotion to become a private investigator Usually you're fired from being a real detective, right? It's self-promoting yourself to not having a job Oh, I see what you do is we you just don't have a boss anymore, man. Yeah, or is it rigs? You're more tall and rigs. Well, apparently come Grant left the LAPD. I'm very good terms He just decided he wanted to be a PD from then on. Oh, right, but Regarding soaked in bleach. I did a little background work on the movie and a lot of the people who were interviewed and so can bleach Said that their interviews were taken completely out of context to fit the producer's agenda and the producers also asked questions Specifically looking to dig up dirt. They tried they asked a lot of leading questions, and it was obvious

According to the people that were involved in this that these guys they had an agenda And they weren't necessarily looking to make an objective film. They weren't looking for the truth No, they weren't looking for the truth. They were looking for an answer. Hmm unless your truth I mean like Tom Grant was looking for the truth because Tom Grant was deeply suspicious of Courtney's motives And I think mostly it's got to do with the fact that he was deeply offended by her vagina That is very possible. That's what I was gonna say is that you know while the movie does make a lot of Mistakes and it's not all that great on its own. It doesn't necessarily discount Tom Grant's assertions, you know, and at the very least You can say that Tom Grant he truly does believe the theories that he's putting forth

And I don't think this guy's in it for a financial gain And when he says that he's in it to prevent more copycat suicides or at least to get justice for the estimated 68 copycat suicides that happened in Cobain's wake. Wow, I believe him I think at the very least Tom Grant's heart is in the right place And that was also a problem with the media near the narrative of the media regarding Kurt Cobain's suicide They glorified it. Yeah far too much. It's similar to how the media glorified the Columbine Killers Dylan there and it wasn't good the way they covered it. Yeah, well, they made it very romantic. Yeah, they did. Yeah So when Tom Grant showed up at Courtney Love's hotel room in Los Angeles

She suddenly changed her story and said actually I don't care about the credit card My husband escaped from rehab here in LA and I want you to find him and Courtney said he might have gone back to Seattle But he might also still be in LA But he might have also gone to Atlanta to record some music with Michael Stipe lead singer of R.E.M Can you imagine escape from rehab as a movie with Kurt Cobain just strung out just trying to escape from rehab? Two hours of him trying to put on his button-fly jeans Like roll and be like I need a cigarette first. Oh, man. Look at this new Farside comic That's fucking hilarious, man. Oh

man Garfield on Garfield so much better than Heathcliff Escape from rehab coming this summer All he did was he just jumped over a six-foot brick wall in the smoking patio. It's pretty simple Yeah, a wall on heroin. Yeah, he thinks he's snake Plisken Jumping over in a motorcycle, but again, it's just him mr. Beaning his way up over the top of the wall What if mr. Bean was on heroin? the whole time

He was quite confused But he did add some wonderful ideas remember when he went home with the chair on top of his car And he just stared at the car with the ropes. I hate mr. Bean I love mr. Bean. Rowan Atkins. It's hilarious. God. I love mr. Bean. I hate him I have no idea how we're talking about mr. Bean right now Execute him. Can we get back to Kurt and Courtney Love, please. Well concerning Kurt's location Well, Courtney didn't tell Grant was that she actually knew he was in Seattle the day before she called in Tom Grant Kurt was seen by Michael DeWitt aka Cali

Who was Kurt and Courtney's live-in nanny and who also just happened to be Courtney's ex-boyfriend? She also paid his rent and gave him heroin allowance Mm-hmm. I don't know how you get the name Cali besides rolling burritos for a living. He was from California Oh, wow I want to be the whisk-o kid That's kind of fun because I'm from Wisconsin We get it. Okay Yes

Well phone records show that Cali and Courtney had talked to each other eight times on the phone on April 2nd And there's no reason to think that Cali would have withheld the fact that she had seen Kurt the day before threw out eight phone conversations Interestingly April 2nd is the day on the receipt for the shotgun shells found next to Cobain's body and the same day quote Unquote a mail was picked up from Cobain's residence to go buy said shells Circumstantial, yes, but still interesting Courtney had also filed a missing persons report with the Seattle Police Department that day under the name of Kurt Cobain's mother Wendy O'Connor the report said that Cobain had fled from rehab on April 1st flew back to Seattle Purchased a shotgun and quote may be suicidal. That's a hell of a 48 hours right there. That's a big 48 hours. Yeah

Yeah, that's like a Nick Nolte 48 hours Yes, now some say that Courtney love filed the police report in Cobain's mother's name because she was genuinely Concerned for his well-being and she knew enough about her own reputation to know that the police wouldn't take her seriously Others say though That she did it as a plant for what was to come later a giant banana fern Or what was to come? Well, it was also what you found out later on is that she called that LA rehab center 13 times looking for Kurt as various people. She called as her saying I miss wife I need to speak with him then she called as his agent

Then she called as his mother and they knew that to cut her off So that's I could see her motive saying like I need to put this under the mom's name Because no one's listening to me now. I sound like a hysterical junkie because that's what I am Well, but she did seem concerned about about Kurt and his health. Yeah. Yeah, you mean the big fucking her wallet With a guitar and a wig on that's that Courtney had her own she had her own money Yeah, she had her own I mean and that's the the thing that a lot of people don't know is that a whole second album lived through this came out the Tuesday after

Kurt Cobain's body was found that's what she was saying this whole time She was supposed to be promoting her album and so she was like it was both pissed but also she was using it in a way She knows that all of this is gonna lead towards the mythos of helping her push through the album and then her first We'll fight. We'll talk about it to defend Courtney a little bit. She's working on her album. She's in the studio She's trying to be an artist and her husband is out strong out on heroin escaping from rehab on regular basis No, she'd already they'd finished the album months months earlier You don't finish recording an album a week after it comes out. How does it work? We don't know how the music work

I just sing into coffee cans and I think it's recorded. Is that the radio? What's the radio? You sound like Howard Hughes On March 6th two days before Kurt's body was found Tom Grant finally convinced Courtney to let him travel to Seattle to search the Cobain residence Grant's guide for that search was Dylan Carlson the same guy who had bought Kurt the shotgun They searched the house and found nothing but neglected to search the greenhouse above the garage Which Tom Grant completely missed. Yeah, that's the place you commit suicide Well furthermore Dylan didn't mention the greenhouse at all, but again Dylan was a junkie. So no surprise there And some people say that

As your tone indicates this is proof of Tom Grant's incompetence But to be fair it was dark and it was pouring down rain And multiple people since have traveled to the location under the same conditions and have said the greenhouse Could have not only been easily missed, but was almost impossible to see all right, which led to the very unfortunate movement in the hgtv world of calling garden houses suicide nooks in Seattle from that day forward That's it. That's a strange uh, what is it house hunters? We're looking for a suicide nook Just something where we can end it all

Yeah, you know so you're looking so okay, so you're hoping to flip this for less money. Yeah, we're trying to bring down the market So the next day on april 7th Courtney asked Dylan and Grant to return to the house To search a secret compartment in their closet where Kurt often hid his weapons to see if the shotgun was there When Dylan and Grant showed up though, they found a note from Cali the nanny sitting on the stairs Supposedly addressed to Kurt. This is what the note read Kurt I can't believe you managed to be in this house without me noticing man You're a fucking asshole for not calling Courtney and at least let her know that you're okay

She's in a lot of pain Kurt and this morning she had another accident and now she's in the hospital Fucking again. She's your wife and she loves you Kurt and you have a child together, man Get it together or at least tell her you're okay or she's going to die. It's not fair man Do something now Also, Francis took the biggest shit I've ever seen today. It's like she's shitting for you and Courtney because I know you guys don't shit because of the horse Yeah, of course

And then you just respond to that note. You're the nanny go nanny. Why are you writing me letters? What is happening? He was working in a bridal shop and flashing queens And I'm working out in one of those crushing scenes I love Fran Drescher She is funny Well, the strange thing is that Kurt was already dead for at least a day by this point if not more So there would be no way that there would be anything for Cali to miss like Kurt would not have been coming in and out of the house Uh, because the the note was not there the day before when Tom Grant and uh, Dylan Carlson were there

The note only showed up on the 7th and Kurt Cobain likely died on the 5th However, it could be possible that Cali thought that Dylan and Grant's comings and goings the day before was actually Kurt Oh Because they were because he's the moron Well, you know, yeah, they were rummaging around the house, you know, uh, and yeah, he was Cali was kind of a moron. He was not the people involved in this tale are not the brightest and best Well, but they know how to sleep They know how to sleep

Honestly, I envy yes, I I have very bad insomnia and I wish I could sleep and heroin apparently really fixes it So looking into it. Yeah The other thing was you you watch all these They're specifically very irresponsible and they're specifically very dumb It feels like Courtney who orchestrated all the shit because Kurt did not hire these people This is all this is Courtney's doing Courtney likes people she can easily control Courtney's also a mess. Curt didn't hire the ex-boyfriend of his wife. Uh, to be the live-in nanny No, that's shocking to me

This is a very interesting Ben Affleck Jennifer Gardner situation Of course Courtney is the Ben Affleck Just Jennifer Gardner just covered her own shit just being like I am all these headless dolls I bought for Kurt for his music video and Kurt's like thanks, baby These are the best I was reading a Vanity Fair article about Courtney and Kurt's relationship And they used to walk into the living room and the whole place was covered in headless dolls And then they wrote my best friend

And she had written in lipstick all over the chimney of the fireplace in the middle of their living room because she's like We had a fight and I made fun and I wanted to remind him And I mean it's best friend And then it's just Kurt in a winter hat with no other clothes on just like rummaging through all these dolls He's like, you think this is a good one's baby and then in Courtney's like, where's Francis? They don't know where the baby is. Oh, that's not good Well, Tom Grant says that the note was left there on the stairs the note from Cali specifically for Tom Grant To find so they could invent a timeline in which Kurt was still alive for as we know

Kurt had already been dead for a day or two by this point. That's Tom Grant's assertion Right So the next day on the morning of April 8th Cobain's body was found by an electrician who had been called to the house to install a new alarm system He looked through the glass doors of the aforementioned greenhouse and saw Kurt Cobain's body lying on the floor With a shotgun lying on his chest. So, you know, did he say like not too late? You know, no need for the alarm system. It's obvious something already happened here. Well, he I am not getting too old for this shit I like this

Strange well, it was either the electrician or the electrician's boss who uh called the local rock station And said boy, have I got some news for you. Oh, it's it's so insensitive and insane to think I mean, I would assume they called the police first Yeah, I think they called the police first, but I think he said something like you at next time bond jovies in town You owe me tickets, buddy. Oh my god. You gotta see jovie I heard Johnny used to work on the docks which is kind of a fun job So when Tom Grant got the news that Kurt Cobain had been found dead He called his office and his associate Ben Klugman told Tom that someone had tried to use Kurt's credit card to buy

$43 worth of flowers hours before the body was found and Kurt had been dead for a few days at this point And to this day we don't know who tried to use the card now There are many possibilities like he may have given it to someone to use Weeks before uh, or someone could have taken it earlier Uh, but some people hypothesized that it was the killer who took it However, that doesn't explain why the supposed killer left 120 bucks in cash from Kurt's drug box And 63 bucks in Kurt's pocket while taking an extremely traceable credit card Well, is this the equivalent to a company card where you just give it to your personal assistance and things like that?

No, it was his personal credit card. I think they maybe had that infrastructure, but I don't think that he adhered to it I'm certain that his manager probably handed me like use this card But he had his own card because he liked to keep things secret I also think I mean Callie's in there bumbling around the worst Mr. Belvedere who's ever existed Like just buying flowers. I think that he knew that Kurt was dead. We're gonna talk about this I imagine but I think Callie just found his body and was just like oh man I gotta figure this shit out put your thinking cap on Callie. Oh, no, that's my gift buying hat

And where's my damn thinking hat? I can't think A lot of stress stressful situation Some say that the door to the greenhouse where Kurt was found was locked from the inside with a stool wedged against the handle Which would imply that Carcobay was the only one in there and nobody could have come in and out But that is not strictly true. The door was locked But it was a turn lock which could have easily been turned while the door was still open and the stool Had also been misinterpreted instead of being at the main door and instead of being wedged

The stool was actually in front of a completely different set of doors that went out to the balcony on the other side of the room multiple doors Yes As a private detective that would be my first not multiple doors We just slowly turn into mr. Body from clue This is immediately I you know what it is Uh, I was thinking too is if you've but you know what uh the stool you ever seen a picture of the stool? It's an art stool like it's a piece of art

Like it's not even a real stool and it had many legs coming out of it And I believe it said on the top of it now you've got a leg underneath you and it's some very strange Joke stool. I don't like jokey stools. I don't have stool support me stool Next thing you know, it's gonna pull itself out from underneath me and laugh at me when I fall on the floor I can't deal with these jokester school stools And then there's the driver's license. Oh, it was reported that kurt had left his driver's license next to his body to help with the identification Uh, but it was actually taken out of his wallet by police and left there to aid the investigation just to move things along a little bit faster Forensic wise no legible fingerprints were found on the shotgun or the box containing the shotgun shells that were used

Suggesting they might have been wiped down But this is easily explained according to forensic expert karin Who helped out a lot on this? Thank you. Yeah now i'm in studio And i'm just so happy to be of help to the boys. I got so much bullet gel It's all over me Well, she said that the humidity of the greenhouse was most likely the reason why prints didn't show up Hmm, but on the other hand she did also point out that the shotgun wasn't analyzed for prints for almost a month And the shells weren't analyzed for another couple years, which indicates extremely shoddy police work

Yeah, you would think that's the first thing they would do is wipe it for prints, especially in such a high-profile case Well, a lot of the curcobane murder camp people point towards the seattle pd for how shoddy of an investigation they did and they didn't do a great job Uh, but they didn't do jumbinae bad Maybe they were smoking the weed before it got legalized just to make sure it messed you up enough Yeah, like alex jones. Yes Uh, no, honestly, uh, it was because it was pretty uh closed and shut the suicide case They walked in and they immediately assumed it was a suicide. They saw the whole thing, which is they shouldn't have done Essentially, you're supposed to treat everything as like sort of like a blank slate

Right, but it was obvious and so they just kind of bagged it up Hmm. Yeah, and they that was actually a that was another thing the current says that they very very quickly Declared it a suicide, uh, and they absolutely should not have done that Especially something a high-profile case like this But the strange thing is they called it a suicide by drowning, which I don't think that they really had it They weren't paying enough attention inappropriate Well regarding the shells

Quite a bit has been made of the trajectory of the shell that killed Kurt Cobain after it was ejected from the chamber Yes, the gun was found on Kurt's body upside down with the shell on Cobain's left side The position of the gun however indicates that the shell should have ejected to Cobain's right side, right? Which people say proves that somebody pulled the trigger Uh, and then placed the gun in Kurt Cobain's hands Well, and this is one of the biggest pieces of evidence that people give uh when when claiming Courtney killed him and and I'm still it is fascinating Well, it's because they said that the gun would have to be at uh, he had to hold the gun in a highly uh Inhumane angle and I love the angle that it shows every time it shows the graphic of his wrist of like doing the weird

It looks like a 4chan cartoon Now the official line is that when Cobain pulled the trigger the gun was right side up But the recoil of the gun caused it to spin Upside down and forensic expert Corinne also agreed that this was a possibility, but I'm sure if we're wrong on this being a possibility One of our gun nerd listeners will be sure to let us know as soon as they have access to their twitter I love people who know everything about guns We love our gun nerds. We love them We love them not afraid of them

I'm not afraid of you At all. It is there. I love you. It is their constitutional right to right to write snarky emails for gardener lack of it A knowledge about guns is absolutely their constitutional right to be by far the most annoying nerds on the internet You are literally picking a fight with the gun nerds. That's not the group of people to pick a fight with Marcus Ever pick a guy fight with the gun nerds you pick a fight with the katana nerds because they don't know how to use No, all of our gun enthusiasts you are that is that is fine. You have a passion. That's good And the reason why it could be a spin and not an outright push across the room is Kurt Cobain was using a 20 gauge which has a comparatively low recoil

And that's also why there wasn't much blood. That's another thing that conspiracy theorists point to and say like well Look, there's not there's no he was shot in the head. There should be so much more blood Right. There's a 20 gauge who's birdshot Uh, the shot wasn't powerful enough to create an exit wound. It was just powerful enough to destroy his brain Really? Yeah, there was no exit wound. No interesting. No, absolutely not Now Corinne also put forth the possibility that the gun was accidentally moved or was knocked over by one of the police officers On the scene and was put back in approximately the same position But not the exact position without the officer telling anyone so he wouldn't get in trouble

She says this thing is a lot more common than we'd like to believe So does that mean that if he was wearing his favorite cap that says gone fish and uh, it would have stayed on his head Yeah That's a good advertisement for hats That is a good that's an amazing advertisement for hats. Wow, okay And she said that the police accidentally moving around evidence said it's more common than we'd like to believe But a lot of times cops will uh, own up to it Sure, uh, although there's never been any indication that that's what happened in this case

Did they find the banana peel he slipped on and did they find the bucket that he his other foot got caught in While he was doing this because I think he did mr Being this I'm starting to really think that he is the clumsiest man in the world and just sort of He just mr. B in his way into killing himself Well soaked in bleach also says that the gun was melted down right afterwards But that's not true either recent pictures of the gun in question We're released not too long ago. So the gun the gun is still out there It was not melted down and that was a false statement

Okay, and they are brutal pictures of the gun too Like I will look that up and they said like the coroner was like I want to show you that the gun exists And it's just him essentially pointing the gun at the camera I'm like here's the gun. Here's the fucking gun right here. It wasn't melted down. I got it right here my fucking Ready hands. Hmm. Why are you loading that gun sir? Feel the power steel Full projection of your penis into the world ultimate control So that was one of the stranger days as a cameraman, but nonetheless good shot good shot

And then there's the infamous suicide note Yes, and we won't read the whole thing as it is very long and very sad But to sum it up the vast majority of it could be interpreted as a retirement letter to his fans rather than a suicide note And there was evidence to interpret it like this Cobain had recently pulled out a play in Lollapalooza, which Lollapalooza was big alternative music festival back in the day Went from town to town the guy from jane's addiction ran it Always there used to be a thing called records and there used to be a giant big brick computers that they were big They were big. They were big and they were they you'd play organ trail on them. Oh, which is not just a trail

It's it was a game where your kids die of shitting disease. Yeah, that's basically the entire thing Yeah, Lollapalooza. That was a huge concert. I remember always wanted to go to that and never been cool enough to be invited Also, I was 10 And as far as nirvana breaking up goes dave girl said in an interview in 1998 with howard stern That nirvana was in the process of breaking up at this point like everything with curcoe bane in the music industry was coming to an end I mean, it sounds like it's just very dramatic There's so many antics going on outside of the art a lot of stuff But the big kicker for conspiracy's sake is the last four lines. They read

Francis and Courtney, I'll be at your altar. Please keep going Courtney for Francis for her life will be much happier without me I love you. I love you now the theory goes that those last four lines were forged written by persons unknown to make it look Like a suicide note and the lines are indeed much larger and the letters do look different from the rest of the note And the lawyer supposedly said that she found a piece of paper In a bag Courtney left behind that could be interpreted as her or someone else trying to forge Kurt's handwriting But carol chaskey the linguist who was interviewed in soaked and bleached and said her comments were taken completely out of context Says that it was in fact a suicide note Hmm soaked and bleached cherry picked her comments to imply that she had said only the end was a suicide note

But they omitted her saying the beginning and middle read as a suicide note as well So what happened? Why did the why did it change with the with the writing style? Was it the fact that he was getting more messed up as he was writing it? I think so. I think that if that's if that if we're going to take that and say that he did write the letter That's exactly what happened. He shot up. He was writing it writing it probably paused shot up Finished writing it then shot himself in the head. I also think that there's probably Surprisingly pragmatic reasons why she had copies and was trying to copy Kurt's handwriting. I think that Courtney was running Kurt's entire life

I think there was a lot of points where she was doing things and handling bank shit for her I also thought that she felt there would be many times it would be convenient to pretend She was Kurt or Kurt was like just be me and a part of it is forging a signature doing shit like just sign this thing I don't want to read this thing and she goes out at they got I know what the fact is going on And like and she practiced it because she's a fucking weird-ass junkie with nothing but time on her hand Well, I think that's her right as his wife. Well that interesting thing Someone else put forth an explanation for that that was Even a little simpler. Uh, they used to write these weird little notes to each other as each other

Well this woman Carol Chaskey She said that the the note has a lot of hallmarks of a suicide note including burden burdensomeness of self a sense of an unbearable situation and a relationship loss and if you read the text instead of looking at the note and yeah It's pretty goddamn heart wrenching the text. It's if you just read black and white text Don't look at the actual note itself. Just read what it actually says Uh, yeah, you're like, okay. This is a this is a suicide note, right? And the text was run through a program called snare

Which stands for suicide note assessment review and it determined that yes It was indeed a suicide note, although the accuracy of the program was pegged at 80 percent So it went through a computer to figure out if this person was emotionally unstable and suicidal Apparently this these people came up with a computer program to assess suicide notes Because you want it to sound like a trap Right also wait till Siri can decide your suicidal by your seamless orders Like it's going to happen But unsolved mysteries who I will defend till my dying day

Wow Unsolved mysteries is well respected and it led to the arrest of many criminals and it solved a lot of mysteries Robert Stack is the best police officer of all time. They solve themselves out of a tv show There's no more unsolved mysteries apparently because unsolved mysteries solve them all Well unsolved mysteries they did an episode on the supposed murder the murder theory And their two handwriting analysts found that the last four lines were written by a different person They compared the note to handwritten lyrics and said there were more than a dozen discrepancies But it could be the reason like we said

Why the last four lines were much bigger and in a different style a little shake here not so eloquent It's because there was a massive amount of drugs and Cobain system, which brings us to the heroin. Yeah Should I not yay heroin We can boo heron. Yeah Get out you're out of here heroin Get out get out. Well, wait a second. I'm so relaxing Don't you just want a little tippity top off of that little little bit you had earlier just a little bit No heroin don't you don't talk to me like that anymore. I'm done with you

You're gonna be able to wear dirty pajamas all day And you'll make love to the worst people in the world If you can even get it up That is the sound of heroin Now the heroin is by far the most contested and the hardest to understand of all the forensic evidence involving The Cobain case I spent more on the heroin than I did on anything else in the research for this episode trying to understand this Shit now many people point to it as the definitive proof that Cobain did not die by his own hand because as they say It would be impossible right a confidential autopsy report obtained by the seattle post

Intelligentser revealed that Kurt Cobain's blood contained 1.52 milliliters per liter of morphine at the time of his death 75 times greater than the fatal dose of a normal person and three times greater than that of an addict of Cobain's caliber Or at least that's what Tom Grant and some of the medical professionals. He's consulted with say Tom Grant maintains that it would have been impossible for Kurt Cobain to have taken this high of a dosage Rolled down his sleeve neatly put away his kit picked up a shotgun and pulled the trigger they say That at the very least unconsciousness if not outright death would have been almost instantaneous

Far too quickly for Kurt Cobain to even take the needle out of his arm much less put everything away Now there have been a few attempts to debunk the heroin claim The first was nick broomfield who was the documentarian who also made the Eileen Wernoff's documentaries In his film curtain courtney broomfield cited a study in which a man was given more heroin than Cobain had in his system And was still able to stand on one leg and that was good enough for broomfield Sure problem with that is that the study was done with morphine not full-on heroin and the dosage was ingested Not intravenously shot. So that debunk fails. So did that guy just die? Yeah, what happened to that strange? Was he just a college student?

I volunteer for the study and they're like here's a bunch of morphine stand on one foot He was a oh man. I stand on one foot all the time not a problem Oh, that actually is kind of the problem with the whole heroin thing which we'll get into in a second Not a whole lot of studies done on it. It's very difficult to do as a doctor Forced people to have heroin running through their veins to see if they die or not Another debunk attempt is based on a 1999 Swedish study in which heroin users were allowed to take as much heroin as they wanted And were reported to have much more heroin in their system than Cobain had in his Sven come closer. Here's a study. We could do as much heroin as we want. Oh, yeah

That sounds like a good idea. Sven. My name's Sven. Your name's Sven. I am also Sven. Oh, let's be ghosts Sounds like a fun study But the people who cite this study Are misinterpreting the data the dosage that the patients received That was much higher than Cobain's was a mean average Meaning they took that dose over the course of three treatments throughout the day You're trying to you're trying to do professor stuff right now You try to make me feel like I'm back in college. Well, I mean I fuck a better than me

Well, yeah, I mean what it actually is is they gave these heroin addicts I think it was 474 milligrams throughout the day where Cobain had like 225 milligrams But the difference was that those guys those other guys they were taking 425 in three different doses throughout the day. That was their average throughout the day Kirk Cobain took his which was less than that, but he took it all in one shot It's essentially the difference between chugging a bottle of whiskey in five minutes Versus drinking that same bottle over the course of a day Sure, neither is good, but there is a difference. Well, one makes you cool and one makes you my dad

Yeah, one makes you jumble you from animal house the other one just makes you a former cop And as far as there being heroin still in a system from the night before a heroin has a half-life of about 30 minutes Heroin is in and out of your system right very fast And the half-life that means that the drug is flushed out of the bloodstream in that amount of time But the biggest problem with the heroin theory is that we don't have a ton of data on tolerance levels Uh, because they can't very well just go shooting up heroin into people to see when they die Right and the toxicology is very hard to do post mortem We also don't know what Cobain's actual tolerance level was it might have been that high

We just don't know well. He was doing 400 bucks a day of heroin for how many years three or four years probably somewhere around there But when you say four and bucks a day of heroin like you'd what purity was the heroin right where is he getting it from? We had a listener comment on one of our posts that was saying the same thing about uh, How 400 dollars he was a former junkie suicidal junkie They like got cleaned up and he's like 400 dollars a day is an insane amount of heroin Like if you are literally doing a lot that's a lot that's like and then also and counter counteractively that Courtney loves 20 a day is probably fake She was probably even lying about doing that

But she probably was even less of a habitual user of heroin than she wanted to be She was just saying it to literally have some kind of cred in the junkie worlds quote unquote sure And it also must be said that tom grant and those other medical examiners that he spoke with They're basing that figure that 1.52 milligrams per liter Figure on the newspaper report from the Seattle post intelligentser not the actual autopsy report themselves Oh, okay, and of course newspapers get it wrong all the time newspapers get it wrong all the time They don't have access to because autopsy reports in washington are confidential

They've never seen the actual autopsy report. So they might not even be working with the correct figure There's just too many variables here But in a weird coincidence the chief medical investigator who declared the cause of death to be a self-inflicted gunshot wound Was actually friends with courtney in the los angeles music scene in the 80s. Oh, okay Someone on the inside perhaps and he had actually booked nirvana's third show when he was in medical school because he had a side business Promote and punk concerts. I don't like my doctors having a side business promoting punk concerts I don't think they should yeah, it's a decidedly dirty environment, right? So it's like one day he's taking out your gallbladder the next day. He's like and by the way

We got wean coming through on sunday. So you want me to check them out, too? Oh, fuck yeah, dude. I'm seeing wean in june. I can't fucking wait awesome Oh, he's just eating a bunch of angel trumpets. He found on top of a 7-eleven garbage can He's like, oh man. I'm living my best two lives. I'm a bad doctor Great promoter though And when you add up all of the murder theory get the murder theory conspiracy stuff Uh, the prevailing theory is that callie the nanny helped Kurt shoot up in the greenhouse Injected him with way too much place the shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger all on the orders of courtney love

Another theory is that the cia killed cobane because he endorsed bill clinton for president It was planning to lead a youth anarchist uprising eventually on the clinton's hands This is a part of it. This is another corpse on the pile that hillary clinton stands at top Justice prevents. I see vince foster, of course. Okay, so let's just we just took a massive leap off of a huge bridge like a lemur Um, okay, so either callie the nanny who was former boyfriends of courtney love killed Kurt Cobain now We're theory two is the cia did it because he endorsed bill clinton and wanted to have an uprising of youth Uh individuals gots. What what is happening? Yeah, just youths can youths. Yeah, and you know how many youths we're listening to Yeah, oh, I would have been this the biggest weirdest one on the front lines of the nirvana army

And the funny thing about if instead think about instead of g e took over everything. What if jinco did? Oh my goodness Well, yeah, actually Kurt Cobain did come out for bill clinton for president He was like kids go out and vote go vote for bill clinton. I love it. Think about this even further ben Who was bill clinton running against in 1992? George h. W. Bush? And what was george h. W. Bush's? A previous job He was head of the cia nails your ass to the wall

Well, that's definitive proof So You know that I mean bill clinton was the mcdonald's Candidate he was he was the one who loved mcdonald's the most openly and who loves mcdonald's more than a career junkie That's a good point. I really wish he would have lived until 96 and then kirk obain was like i think i'm gonna support bob dole Get out there and vote kids for bob dole. I think his fucking hand is funny. Look how small it is. It's all fucked up He's a war hero, okay? So you got callie

You got the cia uh-huh and then you got el duche. Oh this fucking piece of shit Okay, so who the hell is el duche? elden hoek aka El duche was the lead singer of a Disgusting los angeles metal band called the mentors. Here's an example of their work from the song donkey dick So like uh, we're not we're not scared of el duche's lawyers So like what do you think we should call this song?

like you know i was thinking to call we call a treatis treatis on on misspent youth or donkey dick I like donkey dick Actually the mentors they were brought up by tipper gore during our whole uh scan You know when tipper gore came on said that every all music was evil and they needed to have the parental advisory They brought up the mentor song golden showers, which you know what that's oh hilarious

And the the parental advisory did so much good for music because you had to get it If it didn't have the parental advisory on it. It was trash. You had to get it. Oh man We knew what was good. It was like a label for what was great. Yeah, exactly It was the dumbest idea and it worked exactly in the opposite, but you know what goddamn I thank him for it Oh, absolutely. I love a good parental advisory CD So el duche claimed that in december of 1993 Courtney love pulled up in a limo to the record store will el where el duche worked and said El I need a favor. My old man's been a real asshole lately. I need you to blow his fucking head off

Oh my goodness. Yeah, she according to el duche offered him $50,000 to go up to seattle and murder curt for her el said sure He went inside he got a business card and said to call the record store when she was ready is that's where he took his messages Now how much crash how much credibility we're getting giving the author of donkey dick. Well, we'll get to that here in a second Yeah, yeah Now this was corroborated by the other guy working at the shop that day Kourush sapodian

Who said he saw Courtney love drive up and the el duche came inside right after saying she just offered him the hit job I just picture them perfect guy perfect assassin Oh, absolutely. Well, the reason why she supposedly chose el duche was because el duche had a Well, he had a reputation for doing anything for a buck. He's el duche and he wrote donkey dick Uh, they remind me of the two characters from high fidelity jack black and the other dude who worked in the record store These are the piss trashiest versions of those guys Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, man 25 bucks says I drink this whole fucking thermos full of horse piss. You're right Oh

I didn't say I was gonna give it to you. You just No, I didn't make the bet with you. You didn't finalize the transaction. You just drink Yeah, you just so el duche does it again Well, the guys eventually decided it was a joke and forgot about it until march of 1994 When kourush got a call from courtney love looking for el but el was out on tour with the mentors at the time So he didn't get the job. Now. All this sounds pretty goddamn stupid, right? But on march 6th 1996 tom grant claims el duche underwent and passed a lie detector test administered by dr Edward galb the top polygraph examiner in the u.s. At the time galb was the same guy who performed the infamous lie detector test

O.J. Simpson took and failed a couple days after nicole was murdered el duche is a very good liar. He's a creative You can't trust them. Yeah Technically we're all creatives as well. I never wrote donkey dick I would never have the creativity to write a song with such brilliance and poetic Genius the most fucking crazy part about donkey dick is that my penis itself? It's only about two inches long So that took a lot of imagination like the lead singer of fog had, huh? El duche passed with a 99.1 percent certainty when asked dig courtney love asked you to kill kirk cobain

So maybe she did ask but perhaps it was one of their inside dark jokes And he passed with 98 99.84 percent when asked where you offered $50,000 by courtney love to kill kirk cobain $50,000 i'll suck your fucking feet courtney love and we know that your feet are to heroin covered Shit covered griffin talons Well, she's a busy woman Now lie detector tests of course aren't foolproof, but it is interesting nonetheless that you would be able to pass with such flying colors uh, and the other guy uh karush

He took a polygraph too, but he kept nodding off during the test so his results were old and conclusive He fell asleep during the polygraph. We use a junkie nod it off So what if you are on heroin and i'm not even i'm just asking a question because your senses are low And everything is even keel would that help you pass? Would that help you pass the test because if you're like, yeah, you know if you lie or if you tell the truth It doesn't matter your your emotions aren't there. You don't have no idea. Good question. Thank you Good question. That was a very good question. You're a very good interviewer Well technically didn't solicit a response. So actually it was a bad question because it led to the whole team of the conversation

This whole thing is like the dumbest version of tinker taylor soldier spice that exists It's just not enough idiots that are incapable of anything and i did Ed larson from the round table of gentlemen I went to see tinker taylor soldier spy with him and he fell asleep within 30 seconds And then he woke up at the end of the movie and he said good You didn't watch it. He slept and he openly snored throughout these incredibly quiet films And he also looks a lot like el duche Oh my god, we miss you eddie. Yeah, and you know what this a lie detector thing

That would have been the end of the story for el duche If not for the circumstances of his mysterious death not a week after being interviewed for nick broomfield's documentary kurt and courtney In that interview el duche Visibly intoxicated Confirm the story and then went on to say he knew who killed kurt He then let something slip Here's that interview But did she tell you how she wanted you to talk? Yeah, she just blow his fucking head off. I got the shotgun

But she didn't say anything about making it look like a suicide. Well, yeah, but if you just blew his brains out Like you said it wouldn't look like suicide looked like you blew his brains out right, but uh I told alan. I mean uh my friend And I'll let the fbi catch him, but uh That's just the way it's done And the story Hey 50 grand does a lot of talking

You buy me a beer I might do some more talking I You didn't mention he was interviewed by ozzy osbourne What are you talking about it sounded just like ozzy Interesting no ozzy sounds like They're all Sharon was out of Sharon Now the name alan When el duche was talking and he said I called up alan and then caught himself like oh, I mean my friend

Alan was in reference to a local dirtbag who called himself alan wrench He was a member of the band road whore and was known for random acts of violence Okay, and according to a tripod website I found the anonymous writer who set up the damn thing said a few weeks before el duche died He met up with him in a bar and el said he didn't have the stomach for murder And it set up Courtney with alan wrench to do the job Hmm the anonymous poster went on to say that after the death of curt wrench Suddenly had enough money to buy a house and two new cars

Wrench was also not in the habit of letting shit go and had heard about the interview el duche had done in which he'd named him On the night of el duche's death alan supposedly according to this tripod person and one other person on facebook that I found showed up at el's house Dragged him outside and got into an argument the two then left together and later that night Duche was struck and killed by a fast-moving train And he was silenced forever You know you are a near professional scumbag if you die getting hit by a train

They are easy to avoid They come at you fast go to the tracks if you don't want to get killed on a train You don't go to the tracks you also ignore the right For for minutes. Well, that's why he was probably killed by alan wrench I hear that this is one of them ghost trains el duche And then if you just lay if you just look at the train long enough it passes right through you Are you fucking with me alan wrench? Is that your real name?

Absolutely. I was born alan theodore roosevelt rents. So In the end uh while there is compelling evidence on both sides If I had to choose my first instinct now after doing all this research That yeah, you probably committed suicide. Okay. It was a murder Uh, but I will say that I started this journey believing that Kurt Cobain had been murdered But I don't think that it had to do much with my feelings towards Courtney love, which I have been accused of I do and always will think she's a terrible person. Yes But I think it had a lot more to do with the fact that I wanted it to just be a murder

Rather than being a suicide. See because I think well, I think suicide. I think It's easier to understand murder murder just somehow makes a lot more sense and there's someone to punish with a murder There's the possibility of justice with murder and because someone you love has been taken away from you and like right fucking Somebody's got to pay for it But with Kurt Cobain there's no one to blame and it was a massive disservice to just uh the young generation As you said earlier with the 68 copycat suicides and stuff like that. It would have been much better had he Not committed suicide or um, but it is interesting Why did these stories even come about then with el duche and alan if none of them are true?

Why did they even exist because everybody's a junky shithead in the story? And it's what we talked about the last time is that Kurt Cobain was a famous person So everyone views that him is just a big pile of currency Everyone wants to be a part of the story a part of the legend his suicide basically completed the grunge idea Of a superstar that was too sensitive to handle it was it was in the story line It was it fit perfectly Everybody wanted to be a part of it especially scumbags like el duche and shit who just show up And act like they're they're a part of the story right because it gives them credit

Sure, and we didn't even talk about the the curse of 27 and all those sorts of things, but uh, you know, it's very interesting Um, I think 27 is just the year that your body stops being so resilient to drugs Uh, I because I had no my hangover started getting a hell of a lot worse once I started hitting my late 20s I really think that's part of what it is is that when you're young your body can handle that shit so much better But when you start getting older Um, you just your body just stops putting up with that shit and a lot of times people end up dying Well, I have my own theory of who killed, uh, Kurt Cobain, and I'm gonna say it was the music industry Yeah, thank you very much

Also, we didn't even bring up richard lee who tried to bring up all of this shit back into the forefront He was really investigating the murder because he's a piece of shit Well, richard lee actually started a public television access show. I think a week after Uh, Kurt Cobain died, uh, and saying that who killed Kurt Cobain someone killed Kurt Cobain He was among the first people to just not just couldn't accept it just couldn't accept that it was a suicide Uh, and I think I think that's the thing is I think it is among like super hardcore nirvana fans the whole Uh, especially the more conspiracy minded like us, uh, the the murder thing makes a lot more sense But you know the the weird thing was that I actually found that after I had looked at all this stuff

And eventually it said like okay, yeah accepted it. It is a suicide. I actually found myself enjoying nirvana more I found it to be like a little bit more peaceful to listen to there wasn't A lot of the anger that I was carrying around with it when I was listening to it before and be like he got It was fucking murdered man. He was murdered. I heard the cia killed him That's what I mean. Amen never crossed the clintons. Yeah, I never will Well say in the end, you know like Kurt Cobain is like he's just a guy who needed help and didn't get it Yeah, just like you know and unfortunately like his suicide it spawned like you said 68 copycat suicides But we also know that suicides extremely complicated those 68 people weren't getting the help they needed either

So, you know, we just gotta say as always when we talk about you like that Uh, if you feel like you might hurt yourself, please fucking tell somebody don't be afraid to reach out for help Uh, and don't don't do it. Please the great thing about the community that is created because of everyone that listens and this whole Family that we have together is there is accepting wonderful loving people who will help you through your moment You're more difficult things and don't be ashamed about talking about it either because everyone has their own Issues that they have to deal with and it's not embarrassing. It is just what it is and it's life and it's normal Yeah, we all need help. I got a therapist. I talked to I talked to that woman all time I mean, I pay her to speak to me, right, but I think that that's fine. It's fine because now she has to speak to me

And it's great. Yeah, and if you want to know more about kind of that, you know talking about stuff like this in depression anxiety paranoia Things like that go listen to us X and the human activities. It's a show I do with Henry sister Jackie where we talk about our whole Mental health fucking problems and all that there it is. All right because we're shitheads and I can't fix your problems No, you can't fix your own problems. Yeah, and you can I'm not going to fix your problems either You can only fix your own problems. That's right. I'm just I'm sitting in a sound tent I am hovered and sweat My tits are so wet right now. Oh, no one wants to hear that. Good god. All right. Well, that's Curt in Courtney part two Again, I think yeah, Courtney's an interesting character without a doubt

I don't think she's as bad as people make her out to be also. I don't believe that she's uh Well, no one ever really makes her out to be good at all. So I think she's better Some people actually do revere her quite a bit. Uh, yeah, but yeah, yeah, she's uh, yeah I think no Courtney love is not a murderer. No, but she's not a fucking good person either She was amazing though in the people versus Larry flint when she played a strong out heroine addict So maybe she had some you know method acted with that but she was very good in that field She was fantastic in that and like I said like I fucking love live through this like that album is Awesome, and I will also dispel the rumor. Uh, she did write whole did write live through this

Kurt Cobain did not write those songs. All right Because there is evidence of them playing those songs like earlier versions of those songs before curtain Courtney ever met So dispel that rumor. Courtney loves a good musician. Oh fucking accept it. When when a bad person when she's sober Yes, um, oh, and I also want to say special thanks to Corinne and April for their help on this and they were a super big help Very nice and awesome. What is it? Christina the psychology expert? Yeah, she sent me an email today and she said I have no mental problems at all I swear to god. I got an email. I could go I want to see that print it out And then I want to see her signature on it and her standing next to a printed out version of it with her signature on it Well, that's that's what it said at the end. She said I've been made resilient through experience. Uh-huh

Give me my phone. I will read you the email right now. I don't think I don't think you're I don't think you're lying I think you got that even like I'm lying. I know I show you I guarantee you you're lying I guarantee you that you got that email. I just don't know if I agree with the diagnosis. She is a psychology expert She also hasn't known you for seven years. No, you you are you're a numbskull That's what I'm going with. Good god. Thanks so much for listening everybody Very insightful wonderful conversation and we learned a lot. Yeah, we we actually did. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for listening and thanks everybody Uh, who is given to our uh, patreon. Yes, uh, patreon.com slash last podcast on the left is where you can go if you feel like We deserve a little bit of monetary compensation for what we do

Of course, uh, if you give just a dollar or more, uh, then you get access Early access to tickets for all of our future live shows Coming to texas this week. Yeah, uh, there's still tickets left for austin and Houston, uh, so go to cave comedy radio dot com slash live. We've also got a bunch of other dates coming up here in the future Go to cave comedy radio dot com slash live To get tickets to all of those including an upcoming Milwaukee show in july And I will give anyone who listens $50,000 if you kill Henry Zabrowski with barbecue

Find a way to do it. I'm just gonna throw it out there and it's not just stuffing it down his throat either He had 10 times more barbecue than any human could have Because these are tolerances just gotten so large for pork So check out last stream on the left on adultswim.com slash live slash streams every tuesday 8 p.m Eastern standard time and find us out on fucking twitter I'm at Henry loves you at marcus parks at ben kissle find us on instagram at dr Fantasty at marcus parks at ben kissle one the number one and find uh last podcast left and all the fucking Hortraits at lp on the left. That's right and keep on supporting all the shows here on ccr. Abelian's top at roundtable of gentlemen page seven

Sex and other human activities as mentioned before movie signs with the mads Wizard and the bruiser and a whole series of other things here on ccr. Thank you all for your support. You're amazing All right. Hail yourselves Hail satan. Helgi And I'm gonna go salations. Hey, uh, let's skip the heroine this week, huh? Just this give it a skip a room Yeah, I always if you skip heroin every week. You never do it. Yeah, which I'm so pro that I've been skipping heroin That's good for you marcus. Good work. Magustalations. Mmm.