Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 271: Carl Panzram Part I - A Bit of a Grouch

Episode Date: May 20, 2017

It's time for another Heavy Hitter as we cover one of the meanest men of the early 20th century, Carl Panzram. Join us for his early life as Carl rides the rails, burns down churches, and suffers experiences that would turn him into one of the scariest people we've ever covered. Batty McFaddin Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ Decay Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attributi

There's no place to escape to. This is the last time on the left That's when the cannibalism started Now I Is anyone know the true travesty of a I was a sufferer I was a when childhood obesity Your mother coddled you too much big though, but I do feel that if maybe we increase some of these childhood work farms like they used to Putting kids hard at work. Aren't you the one who has PTSD from your fat cat? You are not a victim of Hershey bars. All right

One of the last podcast on the left of her right bed kiss will stare it at the beautiful Marcus Park Yeah, and he's back from the West Coast. He's in studio with Carl Pinsum Henry Zabrowski is with us in studio, which is awesome to see you. Yeah, I touch you um moist But now that I have the sound hood in LA that is way more moist Yeah, yeah, I think it's like a giant essentially like evil clans hood, but I mean evil like opposite So it's like I love clans hood. You don't have to say evil clans it's implied in clans hood. It's opposite clans hood No, no, so I think what do you mean what he means is that a clans hoods are always evil, but his hood is not evil It's evil to the clan see it's more like opposite. It's like when you put a mustache on a guy and he's evil

No evil then why do you get me in these conversations? How am I in this right now? I'm the anchor we were talking about Carl pens room hands Ram and this story. Oh my god Wow, we wow we wow wow wow. That's a hot take and I agree I'm gonna say this man I was sort of aware because I knew about the quotes and I've seen the pictures of his face very mean-looking Technically deviously handsome. Mm-hmm, right? Yeah, kind of handsome beautiful eyes soft mouth That kind of hair that goes back looking a little bit like Kelsey Grammer Played slight side note. We were on the plane coming back from Texas. Thank you, Texas

Thank you, Texas. That was a fucking amazing or thank you for the wonderful homecoming and Dallas was such a wonderful show We came on stage our audience is so nice and Marcus's mother was in the back and after the show She said you all came on stage. I just started crying. It was really sweet extremely And your family was wonderful. So thank you Texas. Thank we're on the flight back I just hear a perorius laughter in the road next to me and I look over Watching Frasier. Yeah, and they were I'm talking like it was like it was like a deaf jam comedy They were going crazy watching Frasier. They were escaping from my Waco like compound I've seen any sort of sitcom. They're like, so this is a situational comedy comedy

But Carl, Carl pans Ram is slowly but surely Licking scraping and fucking his way to the top of the list of serial killers for me Uh-huh. I think he is of what a story That's what he said in his head every time he was doing a murder He said one day a fat boy from Queens will respect me one day Well, he technically had several fat boy from That's the thing about listening to true crime writers talk about Carl pans Ram They can barely contain their excitement. It's like they're all just waiting to go like shoot. It's so cool

Honestly, have you seen the Expendables this guy would be on the Supposed there is a part of him that everybody does want to harness for their own sake and their own power I mean, yes, he is a true outlaw, right? So Carl pans Ram was an American nomadic hobo serial killer who robbed raped burned and killed his way around the world in the first 20 or so years of the 1900s and that is true around the world and in the 1900s the early 1900s That was very difficult to do. Yeah, every place he went just looked like twisted metal to Just in shambles after he left in his introduction to the book Carl pans Ram a journal of murder

Which is required? Good Harold Schechter described Carl pans Ram perfectly He wrote that pans Ram was a one-man apocalypse an implacable human engine of destruction and retribution Bent on wreaking havoc on a contemptible world do it in a Harold Schechter voice We love you Harold Schechter, you're our favorite. Absolutely. We kid because we love this guy though. Oh, so good Oh, you know, here's a quote from pans Ram himself that tells you everything you need to know now Remember we have a collection of his letters

So we have a lot of information straight from the old dog's mouth himself So this is him writing about himself and quite articulately as well. Mm-hmm In my love time, I have murdered 21 human beings I have committed thousands of burglaries robberies larcenies Arsons and I but not least I have committed sodomy on more than 1,000 human beings. I used the nice word That is nice. That is a nice word get credit for using the nice word Carl pans Ram does get credit for it. You don't

For all of these things, I am not the least bit. Sorry. I have no conscience. So that does not worry me I don't believe in man God or devil. I hate the whole damn human race including myself if you or Anyone else will take the trouble and have the intelligence of patience to follow and examine Every one of my crimes You will find that I have consistently followed one idea through all of my life. I

Prayed upon the weak the harmless and the unsuspecting This lesson I was taught by others Might makes right It sounds like a bad guy for Metal Gear Solid. It's so it's like a video game Like you just beat one of the fat bosses who had a robotic wheelchair and they're like, but it's not done yet No, he's the living embodiment of a Nick Cave song. It is unreal He's the gay cone and the barbarian He was raised by the sword. He lives by the sword does nothing but for the love of Crom

See people run from him in fear. No, I think we're becoming we're channeling our Harold Jector Love for this. He is a murderer who did horrible things I guess what he got it too. Yeah, yes Now victim-wise Carl Panzram didn't exactly have a type But with a couple of exceptions his rage was focused mostly on other men Panzram's murders were all about power and dominance Especially if there was sodomy involved which there was the vast majority of the time We specifically said there's not much fun in the world except for whiskey and sodomy and when you that's your quote

When that's your but your bumper sticker is like I'd rather be sodomizing. I just feel like it's like Hank Williams, Jr. Song. He's like nah, I can't put that sodomy party You know what? beer for my horses Yes, here you go. You can have it The Carl Panzram story is known to us because in the later years of his life He befriended a prison guard named Henry Lesser and after they became friends Panzram told Lesser You are one of the very few people. I do not wish to harm

Unless you start wearing that male romper It is a fashion Travis it will not be around very long This relationship reminds me of Halloween with the reboot with Rob zombie where Danny Treyho is the prison guard And then of course at some point Michael Myers. He didn't treat him with very I was good to you Michael Lesser encouraged Carl to write an autobiography Detailing his various escapades throughout the years and Carl obliged now

This is one of the very few serial killers where the main source we're using is the killer himself now normally This is very unreliable normally now and a lot of this is gonna sound Absolutely insane But a lot of it has been fully or mostly verified by researchers and in fact No major statement that Panzram wrote in his autobiography has been disproven. He gives sources while he's writing You know, he'll be writing about a certain crime He said and and then he'd say like you can go to this location in this town Check out this newspaper and you will find an article about this crime that I did and you'll also notice

There's a culverse Butter does make a better burger. I can tell you that but the book Panzram What's it a jerk pans Ram a journal of murder the and the book pans Ram a journal of murder Does such a great job of keeping the footnotes together? Mm-hmm So you go and you learn it is one of the best true crime books I've ever read and also Carl pans Ram an incredible writer Very very good. He actually is and the guy Henry Lesser He spent 40 years carrying these letters around before someone finally published them

Hmm, he said no one wants to read the the jibberings of a maniac and in thousands of little fat boys like myself went Check it out The biggest lie anyone could find that pans Ram told is that he caused a hundred thousand dollars And damage when he burned a building down when in fact the damage was estimated to be around thirty thousand dollars I mean, it's not exactly a lie. He's just guilty of not knowing how to appraise real estate Technically, that's just a Zabrowski way of telling a story. Yeah, he didn't realize that he burnt down a place That was nothing but filled with nothing but Ikea furniture, which is a very discounted price Now for me the most amazing thing about pans Ram is that the only reason why we know of him today is

Because he decided to talk well I think a lot of the guys that are in pans Ram's uvra the type of man that pans Ram was don't do a lot of talking Or do a lot of writing specifically reading or anything but sodomizing and murdering and then probably getting murdered on a train Yeah, I'll be in sodomize perhaps. No, it that's the thing is that it's impossible to know how many dozens if not hundreds of Carl pans Ram's Existed in America that we will never know about Especially in this time period because it is important to know that Carl pans Ram is very much a product of his time Well, he's a I would talk about with Natalie and we both compared him

It's like I would see Carl pans Ram is an incredible villain as a part ham same thing as HH Holmes same level also created by this time period Which is then it's a bit transitory. There's literally there was no highways There was no way to get out the essentially the West was still kind of like the West But it wasn't there was like a weird-ass transitional period. Well, this is yeah, this is a super weird transition period like late 1800s Early 1900s the West was pretty much settled by this point. There were still a couple of Indian Wars going on But it was still extremely violent and this was at the tail end of the settling of the West and the tail end of the Civil War The Civil War was not that long ago. The most violent period in American history had just happened So by this point Americans were pretty much used to violence. It's like well

We just live in an extremely violent country. This is the way things are and of course when they had that violence They had to meet it with equally brutal punishment in the American penal system Which Karl Panzram is without a doubt a product of and it was before the corporate overlords took over in the 1900 election with McKinley And before the oligarchy that we're living in now began. So it was it was it was a wild time all around and when do the reptilians get in? There's somewhere in this time period, but Karl Panzram is different. Well reminds me again of Manson. Yeah, where he is a completely He was taught punishment by us the US government and the penal system Punished Panzram so hard that he just shot it back out the back door and he just became harder and meaner every single time they hurt It seems like he had a slightly different experience in jail than Charles Manson who learned how to play guitar

That's true It seems like Panzram might have been treated a little bit worse But maybe he had just paid a little more attention when he was in the band which we're gonna find out later on He was in a prison band for a little while, which is absolutely hilarious. Yeah, you always said oh, it's too dumb to play music I don't feel bad for him But before we get to Panzram many many years spent in prison. Let's start with his birth in 1891 A panzer amp was the youngest of five kids born to German immigrant dirt farmers in Minnesota

He said I've been a human animal ever since I was born and I'm not talking about like a parakeet talking about like Will the beast I didn't really learn too much about animals come to think of it I just watched Logan and I can't stop thinking of him as Wolverine. Oh, yeah He's got a sort of Wolverine type vibe. What is a dirt farmer? By the way, is it just a bad farmer? It's a pile up the dirt. Yeah, that's what I was wondering like what is because I know leave on helm always talks about It's just a farmer that just runs shitty land, you know shitty land. It's just never gonna grow anything

But they said but they still keep toiling at the dirt anyway They put him in school all day for eight hours because the dad basically he they had four brothers and two sisters I believe the dad was kind of this weird restless spirit kind of a faceless one of those farmer guys, right? It was just like dead on the inside of the country extremely Tempormental well that's the days his father came to America thinking that oh, we're gonna get a homestead We're gonna get like a full plot of land But by the time you know the late 1800s came around a lot of America was already settled a lot of the West all Of the good shit had been taken years ago ever ever believe the pamphlets never never

That's why we had the dust bowl for fuck's sake. I love the dust bowl If you're a German immigrant at that time and you can't make sausage get out get out Go back to what are you here for? We want the sausage. This is America. We have to have an obese son in Queens Absolutely, so he would so he would beat his family regularly But mostly he was restless and just kind of like trying to figure out what to do So he just kind of disappeared and when he disappeared the mom kind of went a little crazy And also needed a lot of help running the farm because his older brother was the one that was like sort of like would have Been the next in line to the dad to like take over shit

He's sort of like fell in love with strippers and casinos Which is really strange because it seems like a thing you wouldn't fall in love with And then he became a cop yes Oldest brother became a cop. Yeah, and so he as a kid was forced to he'd go to school for eight hours Which was not friendly like it's just normal corporal thing And then the mom would immediately put him on the farm where he was picking up rocks and doing stuff all Night long until he would get like two or three hours of sleep go back to school and did this every day until Just childhood that was a story of many American farm. Yeah, that's not so bad

And the days that most of the other pans rams are actually all the rest of the pans rams turned out just fine But what happened to Carl? Brain injury So of course when Carl was a kid he had a mastoid removed from his left ear But as this was the 1890s and the family was dirt poor the surgery was done at home Technically they were dirt rich Unfortunately, you can't sell dirt And of course that didn't work and the infection just got even worse and Carl was finally taken to a hospital

Where a second operation was done and the more massoid was removed successfully But it is extremely possible that the infection and or the home surgery caused some sort of brain damage Yeah, like whatever it is in our brains that governs anger and hate and rage It just got knocked loose and Carl and he just could never get it under control again Can you imagine going to a doctor who operates on your brain and what are the 1890s? 1890s and they just open up a bag and it looks like a bunch of gadgets and things like that from a three stooges sketch Pretty much It all looks like a wacky hammer and just like I don't even know what this one does come on

You literally have to be like these this is the best doctor we have in the country I technically yesterday he killed four horses But when today he's gonna do good because he only had one pint of schlitz. Oh, that's good for the brain That's good for brain doctoring. Well soon after the operation His dad left when Carl was seven and then after that Carl was getting into trouble constantly He got arrested for the first time at the age of eight for public intoxication He was like a tiny WC field And it's like also if the little rascals was real was real

And when Carl was 11 he broke into a neighbor's home and stole apples cake and a pistol because he sat when he was sitting In 11 years old. He's sitting there drunk He is the contemplating life because this one he's completely pulled out of school He's now just working on the farm and he's like, you know a lot of other kids could do whatever they want They just I bet I could just take what they have like he literally just learned like oh I just go over there and I take their shit sure Yeah, I mean can you imagine him to just like hardened with a bottle of whiskey just a jug with 3x That's how they're just sitting on the porch just waiting for a pube

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Of course, he was caught after he stole the apples the cake and the pistol He was beaten as he had been for most of his life up to that point And he was sent to the Minnesota State Training School in Red Wing, Minnesota And this is where pans Ram said he began to learn about man's inhumanity to man True story about Red Wing. I was in there with my friend Noah. He lived in Red Wing. His father was a pastor And I think he's a big fan of the show And I got food poisoning from a bratwurst You're telling me that I don't know about the horrors of Red Wing. I think that I do I could have brought worse for months

I just don't know if you earn the baby yet. I don't know. Yeah, we'll get into that. Oh my god That's a horrible thing. The Minnesota State Training School was first and foremost a Christian facility Pans Ram said their method of training was to beat the goodness into him and the badness out He wrote the more they beat me and whipped me The more I hated them and their damn religion. Yeah, it's not a good way to get people into your faith Beating the living hell out of them. It's not the Hell's Angels for crying out certain people the brain washes you is essentially brainwashing You put them in a big square and you do a thing where it's like you that's all they hear all day long You change their thinking you beat them and you beat it and you beat them the idea is to create little robots

Right, they thought they could do yeah, you beat them down until they finally try they choose to join you I mean it was a lot. It's like what we did to a lot of Native American tribes is that we killed them until they loved us Yeah, and it's what what was it the Quakers who invented solitary confinement until they deemed it to to demeaning and torturous That's what they used to do to try to get people back to the faith Also, I really I always say gummy bears Give me a gummy bear and I will go to a Scientology man Also a really good way to to re-up your commitment in a relationship Fixes everything absolutely the opposite of that. Oh panzer. I'm got to the school

He said a man named John Moore sat him down Explained the rules and examined his penis and rectum thoroughly. You got to I don't know Kitch is in there with any sorts of candies candy canes candy corn up inside these holes I don't know He then asked Carl if he had ever committed sodomy or had ever had sodomy committed on him And when Carl said when Carl told the guy he didn't know what sodomy was Carl said the officer explained it to him in great detail Quote-unquote great read detail. Yes, it sounds quite disturbing. So this is the one of the first incidences of his I guess he was being preyed on as a youth as well

Yeah, and yeah, this is one of his first experiences in the outside world outside of the the Minnesota dirt farm the small City where he was living he shows up to this reform school, and it's just immediately There is a middle-aged man fiddling with him You know what it is too is that think about the people that are hired to work for this sort of oh, yeah You find out your job is that you literally just beat children all day. Who do you think you're gonna get yeah exactly? Well, that's these people maybe they come in good and then they just get institutionalized in their own right Well the reform school employees they were said to be worse than prison guards. They were underpaid They were under-trained. They didn't know what they were doing

They just shoved them in there with all these children. They're like figure it out. Yeah, fix them fix. That's not gonna help Now panterham said that during his first year at reform school He get a beaten every Saturday night as routine like Donald Trump has been with Saturday Night Live That's really funny. Yeah. Oh my god. It's like Melissa McCarthy old spice. Wow, that's what she's called. I should be a comedy blogger That was a good topical reference. Yeah, that was really good. I'm giving you credit for that. That was really good Saturday Night Live Now sometimes he would just get a few more beatings throughout the week for good measure for various things like kicking other boys using bad language Or filling his hat with sugar from the dining room. Little rascal. Yeah, that that last one is kind of adorable He just did little kid crimes. He did all these little kid crimes

He technically got in there for stealing cake and a gun and a gun. Well, that was fun. Yeah Yeah, it was like cake and apples and then he saw the gun as well at this point guy like panterham going to reform school Like he wasn't gone yet. No, he absolutely wasn't just a little boy on a dirt farm who had rage problems who technically needed a hug Yeah, he seemed like he was two-thirds of a little boy because it always seems like you know kicking boys Okay, that's not very good, but then stealing sugar. It's like, okay. That's very childish. Yeah apples and pie. That's very child The gun is a fairly adult maneuver. He also hit puberty at the age of seven. But he's going like all of a sudden he was like Hey everybody they were like, I need a shot of whiskey Immediately. Yeah when panterham or any of the other boys were punished

They were taken to what was known locally as the paint shop So name because that's where the administration would figuratively paint the boys bodies black and blue That wasn't where Bob Ross taught them how to paint mountains. So cute I actually thought of a second was also like the LaGuardia School of Music here in New York City The school where fame was based on and they're creating some sort of gigantic performance piece No, it would be kind of nice It was a torture chamber. It was a torture chamber. Yeah, the boys the boys would be stripped naked and bent over a large wooden block and A towel soaked in salt water would be spread on their backs from the shoulders to their knees

They would then be whipped with a leather strap that had little holes punched through it Those little holes when they were hit it would make blisters and those blisters the more they hit them They would burst and the whipping continued and when the blisters burst That's when the salt water so towel would start to work on the open wounds. I mean you still got a sugar coated hat That's true. And by the end of all that pans ram said naturally I now love Jesus very much Yes, I love him so damn much that I would like to crucify him all over again Yeah, I mean this is just such sadistic stuff Yeah for people to come up with this and then to use these

Tortures, I mean almost a prisoners of war. This is Guantanamo Bay stuff. They're kids I mean there and these are children. They're 11 years old. It's unbelievable and they came up with even weirder shit than that they Actually made a no shit paddling machine, which was a spinning Jenny outfitted with paddles I would spank the boys over and over again when the crank was turned It does sound like kind of a funny Benny Hins or Benny Hill sketch, but I know it's not funny It's very real It's only funny if there's a nude woman with balloons in front of her breasts in front of it And then that actually turns it to a Republican senator's house party

Also these kids were going through the machine and the old men they invented this machine They had like all the guards would like come up with new fun ways to torture the kids And they thought it was like funny right and they would just be sitting there Cackling and drinking as these kids are running through the paddling machines But they said specifically Carl Panzer. I'm immediately learned to not scream or cry. He would just do it silently Yeah Hmm now possibly the worst idea the guards came up with to punish Panzer And was to make him wash dishes and wait tables in the officer's dining room giving Carl access to the officer's food

Oh, he would urinate into any liquid that was going to the dinner table And he jerk off on the ice cream and any dessert that came in front of us And he said they enjoyed it too because they told himself This is the closest he's ever come to a practical joke It's a practice that continues But also you know what's interesting is that a lot of sweet things specifically ice cream whether it's like a chocolate or vanilla It's nice to have a little salty Pop the flavor sure that's what he and that's what he was thinking

He was doing it for culinary reasons not because he wanted to get back on his aggressive torturers Guy Fieri has an entire series of sauces called donkey sauce. It's Guy Fieri and donkey sauce is amazing He's got a kick after Carl got tired and just Now we just can't think of a diner's drive-ins and dives without Carl Panzer ending the show And we're like so what's your what's your special recipe? I make salt That's out of bounds And that it's very illegal and you should probably go to jail out of bounds Well, if you got tired of jerking off on the ice cream and pissing in the soup

He tried to kill the officers with rat poison, but for the thankfully for the guard's sake This was the only time Carl got caught putting something in the food He was beaten and promptly taken out of wait service Now the paint shop the spanking machine those tortures are among the most Tame that pans ram and countless other inmates would go through while in the American penal system in the early part of the 20th century And that's the thing about the shit the pans ram went through. He might have been one of the most evil motherfuckers to ever exist And he may have even deserved a lot of the shit that came to him later on in life But it wasn't just him who got it

Countless other people had to go through the same shit and it did nothing to make any of them better people And in fact as we'll see it just makes them worse back in the day They pretty much assumed that prisons were we like we're gonna essentially try to kill you and you have to defy us by living Yeah, we're literally gonna just grind you down and grind you down because it was kind of weird It's kind of part of like the skinner idea of like human I don't know when that popped up They got when when psychiatry really started talking about human beings are machines and that you can If you change someone's behavior, then they big that's all you have to do is basically just cure the symptoms

And then a mental health will go back to normal like once basically you break somebody But then we're learning you just make bad people worse Yeah, this is also why if you did hang out at a bar in the 1920s or 1930s and there was a quiet guy who was drunk Don't go like trying to open him up like an oyster because the first things that come out of his mouth will just be like that What's that a horror movie where they just open their mouths real wide and screams come out in a bright light? Are you talking about the ben kissle story? That's that's my favorite horror film. Either way, it's horrifying. Well read the panzer in journals That's sometimes what it feels like where you kind of have gotten cornered in a bar by the meanest motherfucker that you've ever met

And at first you're like, okay. Yeah, these stories. This is kind of bullshit But the more he talks the more you're like, oh, I need to extricate myself from this conversation Now because also we're going to find out Karl panzer. I'm very lonely and then when you do get cornered by him Things escalate with him very quickly. Yeah, especially if you're from organ We'll get to that later. So the more that panzer i'm gotten to trouble the more the guards beat him And the more they beat him the angrier and tougher he got Then he came upon a way of dealing with shit that he would carry with him for the rest of his life If I couldn't injure those who injured me

Then I'd would injure someone else. They call me a bit of a grouch That's a it's a nice word for what he became He is literally the race of human called a grouch 1905 Pansram's brother drowned in a logging accident on red lake river Naturally pansram's mother asked if pansram could be sent home to help out on the farm They were down a man But the superintendent of the reform school denied the request saying that karl hadn't made enough progress yet

And as retaliation like karl would do time and again He set fire to the building where the infamous paint shop was located And at this point he had to be a hero to all of his peers Well, they didn't know that he did it just yet It was a thing where we're gonna find out that he does this quite a bit where he sets these fires And normally in a serial killers case It's a sexual release and we now we're starting to get the pieces together He had a brain injury brain injury and he was deeply in arson

But this was just like god. He was such a fucking holy terror He just burned down every single must have been great to see that Horrible building building burned down. Well with him. It was always about revenge When you read his letters every time he like burned something down It's always in retaliation to something else. He's a man of weird principle. Yeah. Yeah, very strange principle Everything it's he is if I were to use a word to describe pansram. It is deliberate Like everything that he does has a reason Uh, whether he's trying to get back at somebody else in the earlier part of his life

Like all of it has a reason and that's what makes him so terrifying. He's not like a richard chase like There's comfort in the richard chases and this idea of him Well, sometimes people go to wibbity wobbity and they do a bunch of weird fucked up shit, right? But he literally if he wanted to do something to you He would do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, so after burning down a fucking building at the age of 12 pansram got a tip from some of the smarter boys that if he ever wanted to get out of the reform school He needed to do at the very least give the appearance of love in jesus and it worked

But pansram Naturally left a little bitter. You know, he's a little bitter a little bitter about the whole experience with the christian reform school Yeah, that makes a little bit of sense. Yeah, and not not like commercial actor bitter No, no, no, no, I mean I was bitter and I went to catholic school and I just had to go to mass every now and again And I got yelled at uh, you know for saying horrible things to teachers and I was bitter and that was technically I was the one in the wrong I've been taught by christians how to be a hypocrite and I've learned more about stealing lion hating burning and killing I had learned that a boy's penis could be used for something besides to urinate with

And that a rectum could be used for other purpose than crepotating Oh, yes, I learned a hell of a lot from my expert Instructors furnished to me free of charge by society in general and the state of minnesota in particular From the treatment I received while there and the lessons I learned from it I had fully decided when I left there just how I would live my life I made up my mind that I would rob, burn, destroy and kill everywhere I went And everybody I could as long as I lived That's the way I was reformed in the minnesota state training school and we're bringing it back

WrestleMania 38 I mean it's obviously extremely disturbing stuff, but I am stealing from chris benoit Of course Yes, I mean maybe teach him arts and science Next time you send somebody to a reform school if he had just learned to play the flute He could have been in jethro toll. Maybe who know and then they would have beaten metallica And so in january carl was released to the care of his mother and was sent back home But when he got there they immediately put him to work on the farm

So and he didn't want to do that shit so to get out of it fans Rem said he wanted to be a preacher so he was sent to seminary school. He would have been an amazing preacher If he could have just faked it enough he would have been everybody stand up Everybody stand up. First thing we're gonna do is thankfully everybody came on such a Lovely sunday morning First hand me the hammer first thing we're gonna do is take this lion wizard office piece of wood But now you old mrs. Barbary You're gonna nail him right back in while I have my way with oh mr. Barbary

I love this new reform church The first evangelical church And this whole scheme that he had to get out of farm work by going to seminary school It worked for a little while until carl ran afoul of a german preacher who started beating him on the regular Hmm finally carl had it up and decided he was gonna commit murder for the first time He was gonna shoot the preacher dead with the cult pistol and he was inspired by this wonderful little couplet Be a man either great or small in size colonel cult will equalize

He literally it was a I he got inspired to kill by a commercial jingle Yeah, it sounds like he was eating like a really aggressive laughy taffy Yes, happy taffy set you right get some murder in your sight Look at that and the candy is pretty good too So carl showed up to school with the gun in his jacket But it fell out during a scuffle with the preacher that carl was planning to shoot So carl picked up the gun pointed it at the preacher's head and pulled the trigger three times. No hesitation. No hesitation whatsoever Well, good thing for the preacher gun didn't go off

And so carl's first attempted murder at the age of 13 was unsuccessful And this is how hardcore shit was in america at this time. He tried to shoot a preacher in the face He was just sent home Yeah, I mean he wasn't in a reform school. He was at a seminary, but like they didn't call the cops They didn't do anything like that. They're just like all right carl. It's time to head home Funny joke carl funny. It's like you're not gonna work out here I'm gonna try to funny how your punishments like the thing you wanted the most Leave the Laffy Taffy with me, please

click click click click click She doesn't work sir So carl was kicked out of school beaten when he got home and carl decided it was time to hit the road At 13 years old is he like a cartoon mouse? How he's sealed is like I'm going to see the country This was back in the day technically. This is a Bob Seeger song. I was thinking does the Johnny Cash meets Bob Seeger kind of situation Yeah, but as cars weren't gonna be commonplace for another couple decades hitting the road meant riding the rails and riding the rails meant hobos, spindle stiffs, mush fakers, and rust abouts. Yeah Do love this if you got to stay at a really nice Airbnb every 12 hours. See you're just talking about taking a train

It's an open-air train. They had to sleep behind the cold They learned there's ways to hide on a train because normally you have also railman and rail breakers guys They're walking around like looking for people that are railroad bulls railroad bulls. Oh, yeah No, yeah, listen any Woody Guthrie song you hear a lot about railroad bulls But I remember this one definition so at the time there were three levels of homeless workers, right? There were bums that never work tramps that only work where they have to and hobos that Travel to work they travel and work call pans ram is not our first If this is the very first version of a hobo serial killer

Very interesting and slightly different than a drifter serial killer because they didn't have access to cars. Yeah. Yeah, exactly Yeah, I would say that a yeah drifter does necessitate a car culture. I think so. Yeah, I wonder what they were called before the trains though Just walking walking guys. I'm a walking guy. What do you mostly do? I walk Make sense walking guy. Oh, yeah, there were hobos bittleships much fakers They were also the curious American phenomenon of the Yegg now the Yegg does sound like a weird diet egg Love the egg now a Yegg was a kind of traveling burglar who was usually Accompanied by his quote-unquote boy and not boys and like oh, he's my boy. That's my boy That's my boy. No, it's boy. It's a young boy who got roped and arrived in the rails with a criminal

I so yeah, it was a kind of weird like Pedophilic criminal tag team that would ride the rails and they and that's the thing There were so many of these guys they had their own subculture in the hobo world with their own like rules value systems and traditions Wasn't there a scene in the remake of Dennis the menace from the 90s where this exact thing happened? Holy shit? Yeah, eating the beans. Yeah Is the boy that's what I kept saying we've already talked about this for about Dennis the menace is obviously doing all of these Did these dastardly little things with a negative attention and finally like oh, mr. Wilfman did something so naughty

Naughty-naughty boy get out of here seems like I need to tie on my cute little shoelace Here's an example I found this I looked up yeah, I just love this I looked up yeah on they have just in the dictionary to see if I could get a different definition of it This is an example of yag being used in a popular 1917 crime novel called Slippy McGee And look here don't you get the notion in your bean? I'm just some little old two-by-four guy of a yag or some poor nut of a dip Man they used to speak so much better But also it's kind of interesting. It's such cute words. Yeah, everybody's just so racist and pedophilic

Doing Yeah, that's what they say about Deadwood as you know and Deadwood has such like foul fucking language all the time But in reality like those guys were just all like gag nav it Meanwhile, they're just like having sex with a 12-year-old girl who's essentially a slave to the town It's horrible. Yeah, they all speak like they're in a Hans Christian Anderson novel And then they're doing just one of the most horrific things that human beings can do So this was essentially this is the world that Pandran was living in at just the age of 13. He wrote

One experience I had during that time I never forgot and it had a direct bearing on a lot of my actions later in life And that experience was being gang raped by four hobos in a boxcar in the middle of the night I mean he was a young kid. Yeah, obviously was a tiny bit hardened. He was kicked out on the street He's out. He's riding the rails. He's alone He's is a bunch of people and the way he was is that he approached four guys They all seemed really nice and they were sweet to him and they were like talking about it And finally they were like I'm we're gonna do this thing to you that we all like to do to each other and he's just like

I don't really know about that and then it became a very seminal experience for him Well, naturally, I mean this will be a Attorney point for anybody's life and specifically if you don't have a therapist or any kind of psychological support if you have nothing and this a Traumatic in a Situation like this occurs. I mean he was really doomed. This is what changed Carl Panzer. Yeah Yeah, like this experience your intense horrible sexual assault. Yeah horrific I mean and this is like what he pretty much did is that he transferred that trauma that he suffered in that boxcar one night To hundreds if not thousands of other men in his 38 years on this earth

I would bet thousand I would bet thousand I actually did a little bit of math and The math like say he started at 15 into when he was 38. He absolutely could have done that And I don't want to see that equation that you worked out on your wall Carolina hiding in the bathroom I'm working on a math problem Five men times 10 But yeah, because you're gonna find out later in life that this is just what he would do You would go from time to time

He'd rob people and say drop your pants and then he would just go around and it's very very fucked up Now not too long after that Carl ran into a group of men in a livery stable. They were all getting drunk They said hey Carl. We got some beer try the beer, but the whiskey's better And so they just kept giving him more and more to drink and they got Carl so wasted He passed out and he was again gang rape and this happened a couple months Yeah between each other and about this Carl wrote I did not want to learn these lessons But I found out that it isn't what one wants in this world that one gets

Force and might make right Perhaps things shouldn't be that way, but that's the way they are I learned to look with suspicion and hatred on everybody The years went on and that idea persisted in my mind above all others I figure that if I was strong enough and clever enough to impose my will on others I was right. I still believe that to this day Another lesson I learned at that time was that there were a lot of very nice things in the world Among them were whiskey and sodomy

But it depended on who and how they were used I have used plenty of boats since then, but I have received more pleasure from them than I did those first times and Then Crocs. Oh Crocs are a very nice thing. Yeah, I mean if he was just around in a different situation He's just a human being obviously has some you know intellectual ineptitude. Yeah, he could have just been Roger Stone I mean like he could have been anything. It's just it's so unfortunate We hear this time and time again on this show with these stories Life the situations that they were thrown into unbeknownst to them not because of their fault and obviously he could have made personal

You're just saying he could have just been a different kind of evil. Yeah, but instead of being the kind of like hobo evil He'd be like political evil and like Contribute to the deaths of hundreds of thousands effective evil 21 or so Well, I guess I did just say that yes, but I stand by the statement Well, also we're gonna also final in on he was actually very similar to a salvo bin Laden or someone that wanted to be a terrorist He really would this this feeling is going to expand to a global attitude well really if you Look, if you check out Carl Panzer and like some of his fannies fantasies later on like understanding Carl Panzer

I'm you kind of get to understand the mentality of a terrorist Timothy McVeigh like these kind of people where somebody's about to pop off You wanted to do but we're gonna get to it. It's very very interesting. It's really fucked up But also he was born, you know, so he was born to this He was made worse by this and it's very similar to Eileen Warnos in my yeah I was thinking that as well. Yeah, it sets up that series of validations because that's really what it is right Well, we just caught we talk about with serial killers all the time. It's looking for what is the thing that finally says yes To the dress that I could start killing again And so this is one of those things that gave him is his motivation and Eileen Warnos uses that as like her thesis statement of being like

The world treated me like shit, so I treat the world like shit That's all they know so Carl spent a few more months hopping between boxcars robbing the whole way until he was arrested for burglary in Butte Montana and sent to another reform school there He attempted to murder a guard for giving him a hard time by beating his head in with a piece of iron Didn't yeah, he wasn't successful But first troubles the school sent Carl to a hospital and clipped his foreskin to prevent him from masturbating now Did they think the power was in the foreskin? I was thinking is it like a Samson situation with the biblical story where they're just like we know where he gets all

Of his strength flip it. You think if you make a man more European like he's gonna become less horny I read I was like, why would they go about that procedure? But anyway, yeah about the old clip in situation Carl said how the hell they figured that would stop me is more than I could see I Can't yet. It's like cutting Beethoven's fingers off. He would have learned to play with his feet Possibly true So a Carl was at that reform school. He made friends with a kid named Jimmy So Carl and Jimmy escaped together, which was the first of Carl's many successful and unsuccessful jail breaks now This is probably the only true happy period of his life

Yeah, there's like eight months strengths with it would stretch with him and Jimmy going around doing their favorite thing in the world Which is Rob Church's and burn them down Yeah That it was their favorite I understand they were getting a lot of it out a lot of their anger towards the church out. Oh, yeah Stealing and burning that's another thing with Carl Panzer. I'm is that you know because he was treated that way in the Christian reform school That's why he loved robbing and burning churches God fucking it's like Nordic death metal. See you're getting on Harold Schecter territory now

And if he had learned how to drum properly, oh my god, he would have been such a good death metal drummer Yeah, another thing they would do is that they would shimmy underneath box cars that were transporting wheat and they would drill holes In the bottom of the box cars right before the train took off from the station So all the wheat would be trailed behind the train on the tracks again It sounds more and more like the plot of this is not little rascal That to be I know it's a massive pain of the ass They probably cost thousands of thousands of dollars in damages, but that's a childish thing to do There's just a little mayhem machine

Little jokers eventually the two split in Fargo with Jimmy going to jail for burglary and Carl heading back home for a couple days Before going out West again and there for some reason he decided to join the army Well, it seemed like actually this is a part of history that I don't really understand I don't know if you know more about it. It seemed like there were a lot of there were a lot of like Unofficial armies like in that time period especially in the weird borderlands No, it was more like a terror there was like a territorial army There was a foreign army because at this time the Indian wars were just winding down The Indian wars that like the major Indian wars had only ended maybe like 10 15 years earlier

But there were still a lot of skirmishes happening Across the American West with like little pockets of resistance with a certain Indian tribes So being in the army at this point like you were stationed in America you were stationed in the West But it was also horrifically boring like some of these guys like even during the height of the Indian wars Some of these guys would be in the army for three four years and never see an Indian once Oh, that's that's that's the what that's lucky. Yeah, they get stationed in like Honolulu now Yeah, but but these guys but a lot of those guys ended up dying from alcoholism because they were so Ridiculously bored because they just are put on a plot of dirt

And they're just like wait for an Indian to come by if you do make sure to shoot him. Thank you for your service Thank you for your service and we're getting drunk. Just drink a bunch of whiskey alone That's like putting a dance party into your own mind But also what he said was and I think a lot of it said he like he was very bored And he also viewed himself as a great American like hero There's a part of him where he's like I want to be like the stories of the old West you hear about like Billy the kid And a lot of these guys during the army so I was gonna do that and also he joined one Mexican stretch of the army because he said in Mexico the churches have more gold and silver in them

And then when I travel through town, I can rob these churches and burn them down while just being in the army as a sidekick Thinking I would love to see him on Shark Tank. So what's your exactly? Crobar's and I sell crucifixes. I'll invest Well, we think about Carl is it like he has a romantic streak He does if you read his writings. He has a very like romantic ideal of himself Because when he stole that pistol when he was 11, he said he did it so he could be a cowboy I mean he wanted to be a cowboy so he could kill Indians, but it's still this like romantic ideal of like a Wild West American, but it's also that weird idea of people joining the army

Specifically just to be able to have a legal reason to kill somebody. Yeah My friend tried to do that or not really a friend a strange fairly strange guy. They never really spoke growing up But then it turns out that he did not enjoy getting yelled at he wanted to do the murder part But he did not like to break me down and scream at me for multiple months part. That was pretty much pan-tram Yeah, you should be a police officer in the South Yeah, he lasted like a month and then after a month he was caught trying to smuggle out A two-army overcoats a suit and a shitload of gold collar buttons Yeah, he was planning to just go to town fence them real fast and then come on back, but they caught him immediately

No, he's gonna make a really really well-dressed scarecrow Kind of fun, but this was the probably one of the worst mistakes he ever made when he cuz then he got set to Fort Leavenworth Yeah, he was caught court-martialed and sentenced to three years at Fort Leavenworth the worst military prison in all of America and this sentence was passed down by the then Secretary of War and future president William Howard Taft and amazingly pan-tram would actually take revenge on Taft 13 years later, but we'll get to that Taft and in rage was they the first inventor of the rolling chair I love that my last name is Taft because I can say it with my mouth full of chicken

You can't not say it So Leavenworth was a military prison where convicts were assigned greats from first to third first We get special privileges and third would get hard time Pandram very quickly found himself a third grader Yeah Third graders were put under a total silent system And if any of them broke a rule the entire company was forced to stand at attention all night long there were beatings Of course, they would also use straight jackets on men lacing them up so tight

The men would pass out and they would just call it giving them the jacket. Oh, just not good not when I go into I'm going to men's warehouse You're not like that because very comfortable jackets. I'm quite I'm gonna like the way I look you're gonna like the way I do I do like the way I look The worst punishment at Leavenworth was getting fitted with a stereotypical ball and chain Which prisoners refer to as quote earning the baby now most of the time you don't earn a baby most of the times You just kind of get a baby, but this is he definitely earned the baby What does that mean earn the baby the baby because the the ball weighed 50 pounds and it was worn day and night

Even when you slept you still had to wear the ball and chain like that whole stereotypical like cartoonish ball and chain shit It's all real. It's all real. It's all real and he would wear a big striped suit And he'd have to carry it in his hands when they would do the gigantic like the forced marches They were doing they had to he worked in the rock quarry and the rock quarry was four miles away from the prison So he essentially took this gigantic iron ball this 50 pound ball and walked four miles Both ways back and forth did eight and a half nine hours a hard labor one of the craziest versions of CrossFit to ever exist I was gonna say so the prison the man who ran the prison was like maybe we should just get the prisoners to be like Stronger than like Brutus

In no way will they overthrow us. Yeah, he did this for six six months of that every single day And this is what he wrote about that shit what that did to him God, good lord. Was he fucking strong? At this time of my life. I was about 20 years old Six foot tall and weighed about 190 pounds of concentrated hell fired man inspired meanness I was the strongest two or three average men and half a spider man But all of that treatment did one good thing for me Hmm the worst the food was and the horror they worked me the stronger

I got I quit my old habit of master beating because it couldn't do that and hard work and punishment at the same time He's masturbated so much. Yeah, the work kept them from master. I would love to see him as one of the As one of the coaches or trainers on the biggest loser How to use that machine what are you doing? Why are you taking my clothes? Maybe we shouldn't have him do that six foot a hundred and ninety pounds So he's getting buff. I mean he is the monster this I mean Karl Panzer. I mean he is a he's a professional wrestler So yeah, yeah, he's gigantic and he would maintain that six foot one ninety bill for the rest of his life And his rage would only get worse. This is what Karl later wrote about his attitude upon being released from Leavenworth in

1910 I had fun. I feel flirty Is that what he said spring collection for forever 20 was looking absolutely wonderful fabulous and free well looking for you I'm a fashion model. I hire fashion models here. I want to show you how to use the machine. I don't know Oh my goodness, this is how this is really really what he's at. Yeah. Yeah, for some reason it didn't help his attitude. No Shocking. I was the spirit of meanest personified. I had not at this time got so that I hated myself I only hated everybody else And technically he did still have a little love in his heart for himself just a tiny bit It just kept beating it just kept getting beaten down and beaten down and beaten down throughout his life because that's just how

It was in the prison system because he was just like just rebellious. I have a weird impulse to say I think that he liked the way he looked I honestly do think that he would look in whatever sort of mirror they allowed him to have Yeah They're just flexing I got that natural V Yeah, it's like a D'Angelo. No, and we'll get into just what he did with that power that rage at hatred and that anger Part two of Carl Pandran. We have ended this episode with me envious action Yes, I am actually now a little bit upset that he has a perfect body rock hard body

And also don't take no ship from anybody. Well, I like that a lot from a lot of people But all right Carl pans around well, and we'll get into like the truly evil stuff that he did because at this point Carl pans around like, you know what he could have gone either way Yeah, he's like a bum and a misfit and a piece of shit and obviously killer and And he ready to be killed and he made he he makes a choice and then once he makes that choice He keeps making choices He essentially gets to see like how far can I go right? And he does this all over the world and you also watching the actual birth process

You remember the dude that's covered in muscles and Ren and Stimpy the one He becomes that man, I see Unfortunately, Ren and Stimpy weren't there to soften his heart They are amazing again. Thank you guys so much for listening great episode. I'm just gonna I'm giving ourselves a compliment great episode Okay, it was okay. Okay. I don't know I want to think we can always do better. We can let's just not why are we recording us? I didn't do I just I said something nice Can we say something nice every now and again? Good lord almighty

Yeah, again, thank you Texas. Yes such a great time Austin was amazing Dallas and Houston. What a Your home state was beautiful. Thank you to everyone at Sidewander and Austin White Oak in Houston and Texas Theater in Dallas and also shout out to our boy Anthony at Pie Pizza in Houston So fucking good great pizza. That's good pizza. Very intense stories Yeah, and I will share and I will tell you dude. I talked to I'm talking to Anthony right now I talked to my dad and yes, we are related. Well, you go to Texas and you're gonna find a relative. That's what we learned We share like a great-great uncle. Yes, I want to thank I believe it's Angela for the Vladimir Putin writing a unicorn t-shirt

Which is my favorite t-shirt. Thank you so much. And thank you for not putting us in your prison system. Yes Oh, we were very fortunate. We did drive through Huntsville. Yeah, and we drove a little fast. Yeah Henry was like I feel like I'm driving with my mother I learned a lesson from Tracy Chapman that if you want to get from place to place as fast as humanly possible You drive a fast. No shit. Yeah, she didn't drive her car fast. She had a fast car Yeah, and she used it responsibly and legally. I turned our Hyundai Sonata into a fast car. Yeah, all right Let's see. Should we patreon? Yeah, yeah If you guys if you guys want to give us a little bit of cash and get a little something in return

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That was technically Henry trying to be nice. Oh, yeah, and it's just like I'm just gonna it's gonna be that same thing We're like a walk at home and it's just gonna be A lot of people like sound guard love sound guard. That's very good. I love sound magoo stilations. Bye Na na na na na na na na na na na. Is a good way to start. I don't know either way We've just started it. So these are the patreon shout outs. Thanks to everybody who donated You are the reason we exist and we love you very love your money. Love your support. Love your money Love you as a people as I love your money. I like you. I like me. All right. You are your friends. We're all friends All right, I want to thank Brian Harris. I want to thank Mitchell Ebert April Bryant Rachel Domelt

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Ali Anver Ricardo Ida Guas William Yeager Sam Spleyser Nora Rubinowski Dana Kitchens Kate Nick Koteski Elizabeth I love it Kelsey Morrison Veronica Lee and Justin Woolley. We believe we know as well Yes, I think so. I've seen his fucking ass around. Sure. Sure. Yeah, we've seen them around. Well. Thank y'all very much. Yeah That's it. We got it. We got a show. We got to get out of here. We got to let the brighter side record All right, we're coming back with some new episodes. Yeah, and we got to line all the seats with plastic for Ed Larson to sit on Hail yourselves. Hail Satan. Hail Gain. Hail me. Muggers to Leshians