Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 317: Dennis Nilsen Part I - Orientation in Me

Episode Date: May 19, 2018

It's time to talk about the recently deceased as we explore the life of Britains most famous known serial killer, Dennis Nilsen. Join us as we investigate Nilsen's early life and the numerous twisted fantasies that led him to his first murder. ​

There's no place to escape to this is the last time on the left That's when the cannibalism started This is a really goth episode is it really this is a very goth episode, I hope you have your lace gloves You know imagine how much You just reminded me of a story when I was in high school We wanted to go steal clothes at Hot Topic, but they didn't have my size The stupid Rob zombies shirt Because they only had larges and they knew I was a double extra large and that was a that was an embarrassing day

I'm literally too big to steal too fat to be golf Oh my god, all right, welcome to the last podcast on the left everyone. I am Ben Kissle with Marcus Parks Hello, all right and beautiful Henry Zabrowski over there There's just something about Dennis Nielsen That made me toss on some like I toss on some sisters of mercy. I know that's technically not his his era No, but there's something so goth about his shit that I'm just like twist and back and forth live and listen to Sui and the banshees is it Suzie? It's Suzie. Suzie and the banshees. Suzie and the banshees? Man, just so sad like hanging like dancing like Linus

Which one who did the slouchy dance? I love Linus. All right, so this guy he is goth and he's also Scottish Well, he's Scottish. I don't know if he's goth I don't know if anyone who loves prog rock as much as he did it could be goth. Well, they like to kick a lot So let's talk about it. We're today's episode. We're covering this dude Dennis Nielsen So Dennis Nielsen was a Scottish serial killer who murdered 15 men in London from 1978 to 1983 Although Nielsen is oftentimes known as England's Jeffrey Dahmer Nielsen himself said that the comparison is superficial at best. Let's just say mr. Dahmer

I mean obviously did horrible crimes, but he had that x-factor sure He had that something special. He had that something else not saying that Dennis Nielsen is not a perfect snowflake in his own world Right someone who'd to be heralded in his own world of serial kill them yet and Jeffrey Dahmer never bowed to the queen Subject Who threw the freedoms of the afforded by this country? Absolutely department and turned into a hellscape for those poor poor young Filipino men that is a that is his 29th amendment right? It's not done yet, but I'm gonna write it in there Yes, both were gay men who murdered out of loneliness and kept the bodies for extended periods of time

But Nielsen was not a cannibal. He did not mutilate bodies for pleasure Nor did he keep trophies of his victims as Dahmer did This is a funny way to say dicks If I were to just take off my pants, so this could get out in front of Natalie me like and here's my most improved player trophy Well in fact in some ways Nielsen's crimes are creepier as his murders are in their own way More romantic because he's like a TV character come to life a very shallow one, but a TV character nevertheless Okay, he is a

paler version of a vampire than we've seen He is I would I would have pre I would compare him to a vampire. He is very romantic It's very much atmospheric and it's true and that's where the creepy factor does come in It's really just when you start reading the books about Dennis Nielsen and getting into his interior life And a part of it is the same Mark David Chapman thing that we were talking about last couple episodes Which is the idea of like some people just have the most dark Cryptic fantasies going on in the back of their head and you just wouldn't even know yeah, absolutely not the monster squad vampire Well Nielsen's victims were men picked up from pubs some gay some not is that didn't really matter to Nielsen

Really his MO was to meet them bring them back to his place for more booze or adjust shelter for the night and when the moment Was right he'd strangle him Interesting so instead of PBRs like Dahmer. He was drinking body intense and Four o'clock in the morning bar close. I think it's like 10 p.m. In the UK So it was a fairly early time to be kidnapping folks Dennis Nelson was a rum and coke man. No kidding. Yep He loved his Bacardi you love his Bacardi and coke and it's everyone else's was drinking that warm UK beer Which is very strange. I like a good body in ten well after he killed him He'd keep the bodies for months treating them like company or cuddle buddies until the decomposition set in too much

And you'd have to dispose of them in increasingly disturbing ways the more the bodies piled up. Oh my goodness Well, this is like so it's like sort of his version of a of a body pillow But it's an actual human body Well, the way he would put it is we'll get obviously deeper into details that he'd blackout Uh-huh, he just wake up in the morning and the dude would be dead Oh, and then out of the he would go and he would he would do his he would do his ceremony And then he'd leave him in a chair completely nude. He'd go to work and come back and be like, hello And it's a certain again, it's about the um, how normal it was

Yeah, like it's like, oh, I got to get rid of these bodies that it was that that's where the true Scariness comes in. Okay, interesting. Yeah, and the whole blackout thing that sort of evolved over the years where at first He would say it's like well, I was blacked out for six of them. I was blacked out for five of them Okay, I was blacked out for three of them. Actually, I remember every single one of them Can I just say I don't remember quite a bit It's all sort of like let's say etched in my mind I gave you a bit of a fib mostly just because like all right everybody sees he is about what I do and they're like Oh, what are we what's wrong with him? I tell you what there's quite a bit wrong with me

Like only a few other serial killers Dennis Nielsen wrote an autobiography But instead of say a pee wee Gaskins who quote-unquote wrote his in order to be seen as the baddest little boy around Oh, Nielsen's goal was to portray himself as a sensitive intellectual. Oh, I see Nielsen's biography was a 4000-plus page opus titled history of a drowning boy History of a drowning boy was named for an incident from his childhood That book is a treatise in naval gazing with chapters such as the one about his sexual history titled Orientation in me. Yes

He is very snooty. He is a snooty man that wrote a snooty poet poetry filled book That is not so but that things now that he's past as a part of why we're doing this episode because Dennis Nielsen Pass and we bumped him up the list because he was like he was the next one What do you see the way that which I'm excited for the one that was going to be before him, but he was a snooty snooty boy I mean every one of his pages is filled with these like little light. It's just very poetic Oh, it's very it's him searching for the reasons why because again It's a bunch of people were looking at him being like, why did you do this shit? And he's just like let me get my quill

And the story shall begin and thus began the finale truth. Oh That's the final truth. It's interesting because you talk to people you'd be like I got I got $17,000 of student debt They're like, what's your major orientation in me? They did let me make my own major. It turns out can't get a job. No from the excerpts I've read it's really an essence no different from any other serial killer confession. They think they're taking responsibility But at the same time, they're also hinting that it isn't really their fault that if not for these two or three things Then everything would have been fine. Okay But even in their confessions

They can't help but lie in order to twist the facts to make themselves look better with Gaskins It was to make himself look tougher, but with nilson It was all about making him and his crimes seem more sophisticated Oh, but that is a common thread with Dennis nilson that we'll see everything that came from his life because he came from this small Scottish shantytown filled with fish guts was that we've ever seen never seen the show little Britain Oh, I love little Britain. Yeah, there's a character in that. It was the only gay in the village on David. Yes He was that yes Because he was born gay and he was in this little he's in this village where it's just like he was the only one or as far

As he was concerned. He was the only one everything had a more thematic Like a more dramatic flair every single thing was about how important it what every single detail of his childhood was was Seed that flourished in his young tormented mind. Sure. He it's a lot So he walked into his house He saw a dead corpse there or just a corpse sitting in the chair and he says that's because I'm a sophisticant Is that is that what we're talking about here? Hold up here like it stops like in the movies like hold up Let me explain how I got The Zach Morris timeout. Well while he's trying to make his crimes more sophisticated

He's also trying to mitigate his crimes as well He said that he was not a sex maniac not a sadist Necrophiliac not vengeful Certainly not definitely completely on the money What maybe it's the sarcastic knot what he was in his words was totally irresponsible That sounds like the period of time I went through a four-year period of time where I just didn't pay my US taxes Because I didn't know what the fuck to deal with it I mean I've since paid up but I did everything but I remember going to an accountant and just be like showing the notices from the IRS and being like

I'm like totally a responsible Fix this You know the totally irresponsible thing there is some truth to that because he said again and again that he could have turned himself in after The first murder, but yeah But when pressed as to why he never did he said it was because he was worried about what was gonna happen to his little dog bleep I don't know all all killings aside. That's a great name for a dog. It's the cutest names I heard for a little Scottish dirty dog I mean the part of it too was that he's I think I am pretty certain

Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure you will I think that he was the only serial killer with a pet with several pets like he would like all the ones we've heard I think maybe some of them had a dog. I would imagine you must have had a dog. Casey had no dog I would imagine that like Gaskins or like Henry Lee Lucas had like a yard dog, right? Like your dog. Yeah, that's like a dog that belongs to the community that shits on your yard Right, right. It's like bleep was his dog. Yeah bleep was a tiny little dog That's like it's like Wendy you would not mistake and Wendy's like my dog because Wendy has to be carried by me to do most functions Right, right, right. Yeah, you're needed. Well, Nelson said he never

Appreciated it when people called him a monster because doing so diminished the psychological complexities of both the case and himself In other words, he found a way to make himself special instead of just another dickhead who chose murder. Okay Well, you got to make yourself special because Marcus if you don't make yourself special then who's gonna make you special? I don't know maybe bleep and as we'll find out this man was indeed a monster But not in the way that we think of say to put it in British terms Ian Brady or Fred West were monsters Yes, Nilsen was a monster of romance Monster of romance the meatloaf of serial killers. Oh, right

And while Dennis Nilsen's loneliness Timps sympathy he'd like Dahmer is a man who deserves none. Hmm. Nilsen again and again tried to Intellectualize his crimes to make them more impressive than they actually were making him no different from Henry Lee Lucas claiming the hand of death Hired him and his buddy Audis to commit their murders in order to destabilize the American government, of course But before we get into the life of Nilsen, let's go through our sources The first is the true crime classic killing for company by Brian Masters given to me by friend Neil during our UK tour Thank you Neil. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much Neil The other source today is Dennis Nilsen conversations with Britain's most evil serial killer written by Russ coffee

Oh, all right But the interesting thing here is that while both were written with the assistance of Nilsen himself killing for company was written in 1985 soon after Nilsen's conviction while coffee's book is from 2013 okay Killing for company also sounds like a really sad childhood You know just like I would kill for some company right now. I could just go for any kind of companionship I will say that through many years of my life. I was definitely eaten for loneliness Well these two books having these two sources that means that we've got two different perspectives from Dennis Nilsen told almost 30 years apart

So the story that he tells has time to change and evolve right the challenge here is to figure out what is truth and what is lie What is true to what is life? That's tough But we'll do our best as we get into the life of Dennis Nilsen. All right I know that he's not got the thing is that a part of it is the the prog part of it is the lamest part The flogging mollies The prog rock is like yes or like rush Never mind

I do not like prog rock. I'm not talking about action prog I'm not talking about like, you know fun up-tempo prog Instrumental prog like your Emerson Lake and and Palmer. There are certain areas where it's like. Oh, what are we doing? We're really killing people to this. Oh, this is the track There's a lot of great prog or out there like there's this one great prog album that was based on Lord of the Rings That's like a completely instrumental prog album that was put out in like the mid 70s, and it is fantastic All right, okay. I'll give you some credit. What what is the flogging molly? What's that one called? It's just punk It's called like swashbuckling tunes or something like that. No, dude. It's fucking St. Patrick's they pub crawl soundtrack music

Okay, well never mind whatever. Let's go on with the Tom Sawyer conversation here Well at the time of Nilsen's capture in 1983 He was a reasonably handsome big glasses wear and rum and coke guy Working in civil service who spent his days haranguing his fellow employees about left-wing politics. I don't understand Every single one of these British serial killers. They always say the same thing Shulkingly handsome where it's just like he still looked like a skeleton with a bunch of play-doh on it Like I don't mean to malign British men all the time, but he was sallow Yeah, right, right. No, you can be a David Beckham a very handsome British man

This man doesn't Nilsen doesn't really fall into that category Like he was actually kind of good-looking was like no, he's not right. That's me Well by the time he was caught Dennis Nilsen had murdered 15 men in two different locations and had been disposing of them in gruesome horrific displays of indifference But before all that happened Dennis Nilsen was just the saddest little boy in Scotland Is that work Scene has been set man. I'm in I'm in merry old Scotland. Absolutely remember man our knees going up and the homelands Oh, I miss the car. I miss the bosom of Scotland and how good I felt to be honestly Glasgow was such a good place

Glasgow was amazing. It was Dennis Nelson was born in the small northeastern fishing town of Frazierburg Just east of Lossymouth and Fockeburs, but not quite as north as the town of John O'Groats You pronounced it perfectly. Yes, perfectly done And each one of these towns is based off of a different story of a giant man Somehow being washed ashore on an island filled with tiny people That held him hostage until he murdered all of them by stepping on them. Hey, all right Gulliver's Travel Fockeburs. That would go on. John O'Groats. John O'Groats. I love that all their towns sound like they're just yelling at you

He named him John O'Groats because it's the sound my grain be made when he had put on his boats on a day Oh, O'Groats! I can't stretch out my spin You're the grandson of that guy I can't cut their oaks in it You're now the mayor Of Frazierburg is the biggest shellfish port in Scotland and is known the country over as a remote miserable Cold Dower place and has recently been dubbed the heroin capital of Scotland

Hey, hey elastic, come here. Help me fall asleep in the middle of the street. Yeah, you give me this needle Makes me calm down even when I sleep. I'm a load I'm sleeping. I'm sleeping. I'm molding. I'm sleeping The people of Frazierburg at least back in Nelson's childhood were said by Brian Masters to have been suspicious of strangers Very aware of the existence of good and evil and had markedly different personalities at night Sounds like people addicted to heroin Also, do you ever You ever watched a League of Gentlemen? Oh, yes. Yes, it reminds me of that small town because I believe it was like northern England

I forgot where that they where it was actually set but the idea of being like Locals being the only ones you could trust. Yeah, I think that you are taking these sketch television shows very literally It comes to the representation of the nation that they hail from that is their cultural reach out to people like me That's how I know that was their cultural attache with all of the sketch comedy from the UK Well on the other hand the dour nature of this town is somewhat to be expected as a large number of the population would drown Every year on fishing expeditions. She's sometimes losing entire male lineages in a single day It's not funny, but you know just like stop

In the boat Daddy you got to help me this little man the fish pulling me into the ocean daddy This is like if it happens like too much like kind of your fault I'm not maligning the fisherman The people in this district even have an almost completely different language from the rest of the country. They call it Bukendorek Here is an example of the way they talked back then as recorded on a 78 This is a story about a humorous airplane trip. That's my favorite

So you tell me Jerry Seinfeld existed in the 1950s This is about the black box. I'm gonna be very I'm gonna laugh out loud. Oh, this is from this is like from the 30s Oh, okay. All right is he a character from under milkwood? What the hell is that accent? No, I get it Care to translate the bit. I believe he said something about how like his kilt got stuck on a lug nut And then a woman was there and saw his berries and she was like Betty's Betty's everywhere And then she was he said something like what's the deal with the food being? No, it may not come as a surprise that this remote fishing village was a hot spot for inbreeding going back Centuries it was so common that surnames became essentially meaningless in this town

Oh, man to avoid confusion people would be referred to not only by their first names But by the first names of their parents as well for example nilson's grandmother was called whistles Lebe Rolls off the dog. It really does. But you know what I understand I mean after a while you're stuck on this island cousin Irma is starting to look pretty good Yeah, because at least cousin Irma doesn't have the rugged Farmer's knees that cousin Velma has because cousin Velma is starting to look like a rhino from the hips down Cousin Irma at least she's doing steps by walking the fish cut buckets up to the top of the consulberry

What is it once removed is okay? I think it's like second cousins Second cousin is fine But I think just in this because they were all just stuck in this one town So nobody would leave so I think at this at this time. I think this town is like about like 11,000 11,000 Okay, that's what I was gonna. It was a little bit larger of a gene pool than you might expect but small enough I get it where mental problems were rife within this community due to the constant inbreeding that explains the drowning Perfect. It's all coming together. It's like any one of those small towns when you're born There's certain people that are born that understand like I got to get the fuck out of here as soon as you see what's happening

And there are people that are just completely contented to be part of the same system because it's nice because you're there You have your whole lineage. It's like if you have kids you've got your grandmother who is also your sister She can watch the kids like your own kids when they become your uncle They can help you go to the farmer's market. I'm not sure what they do No, that sounds about right and if you are in a small town right now And you feel like you're being gaslit because everyone's so extremely stupid Don't don't be afraid to get on out. Yeah, get on out of there. Go to Cleveland Go to Cleveland. I just went to Cleveland. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. I love Cleveland really it gets a bad rap

It does but it's a wonderful town. I had a great time. All right, me and Carolina both had a fucking wonderful time Yeah, you are the only two human beings I've ever heard of that went on a romantic vacation to Indianapolis and Cleveland Whistling like you just come back from Paris Well back to the mental illness of this village it was so rife that Insanity was considered nothing more than a quirk of personality Okay, for example Dennis Nelson's great-grandmother would shudder herself inside her house for the months of December to June every Every year and the most they did about that was to give her the drawl nickname the June Rose

Yes, they have more colorful nicknames because that's very poetic and you can kind of see Where Dennis Nelson came from with the idea of his like of poetry and a grandizing things that are small because it's like that is That's a very strange behavior, but he made it into like a fun thing. They hope it and reverse it I know that I don't you know I'm not the key researcher here on the show, but Marcus you did miss the element to this that really kind of ties it all Together his grandmother was a bear And so naturally from December to June she was in hibernation, and I think that that's important to remember I forgot that the neighboring town was Narnia

Absolutely, that's correct. Well speaking of the poetry I it seems like poetry is a really big cultural thing in This district in this area of Scotland because when I was looking on YouTube to try to find examples of this dialect I found a lot of poems I found a lot of guys like reading poetry like there was a poem about the weather. There was one about Haggis Yeah, there was one about the weather and the one about the weather Wow, that's a lot of poems about the weather. Interesting. Well Nelson's entire maternal side the whites Were notorious for their mental illness

Another one of Nelson's ancestors named William Pum tried on more than one occasion to drown himself While another was remanded to a mental hospital, but never left. I don't understand I take the glass of water and they try to drown myself. I put it up to my lips and they put it to my mouth And I'm like glug glug glug. I never die You just stay hydrated That's called drinking yeah, and that was the only weirdness in Nelson's family He even had a relative that at one time was put forth as possibly being Jack the Ripper Really? Long before it was discovered that Dennis Nelson was related to him. Really?

Oh, yeah, he's got a whole entry on the Jack the Ripper casebook interesting However, the whites even though they did have all these mental problems. They were also known to be extremely intelligent people That's a very controversial statement to make Marcus, right? It's kind of like when you were watching I know you haven't seen it yet evil genius on Netflix is amazing They constantly talk about how the main woman is like a brilliant person and then you hear her speak and I don't see it I just don't like see the super intelligence, but you know what sometimes intelligence is not in words. It is in actions I still don't see it You and I will get into evil genius outside of Marcus, so you don't ruin more of it's fun

Well, this environment was what Dennis Nelson was born into just six months after the Nazis surrendered to the allies See during the war Frasier Berg was an important outpost against a possible northern invasion from Nazi occupied Norway and since Frasier Berg was right across the North Sea from Norway that meant that this small fishing village was Swarmed by resistance fighters from Nazi occupied Scandinavian nations. Oh, so horny These men could think about this You've only been fucking the people you know your whole life all of a sudden these strapping Scandinavians come rolling into this small town You know, we're gonna have a lot of Magnus's and Olaf's and Sven's come out of this town pretty soon

Yep, one of those resistance fighters was Dennis Nelson's Norwegian father Olaf Magnus Moksheim Oh, I love the name Magnus. Oh Magnus is great And he for some reason changed his name to Nelson when he was in Scotland. Um, sounds like maybe he had a family Back home So during a night of revelry in one of the local bars Olaf met Dennis's mother Betty White I think it's pronounced wit Betty wits. I like Betty. She's a national hero when her and Willie died That's the last of a great generation. Yes, it is. Yeah, especially if they do it together Oh, I oh Willie and Betty. Yeah fucking Willie Nelson pressing her forehead to hers

She puts the fucking revolver at the back of her own Well, I just want Willie Nelson's final words like after he hits a huge joint just be like one toko over the line Well, Olaf and Betty were married only a couple of months after they met and Betty popped out three kids in quick succession Before Olaf skipped town for good. Oh never came back Come on He divorced her on grounds of adultery, which isn't surprising as Dennis said the only thing he and his mother shared was quote a fondness for cock now But he also wrote that from the when he became all like

Jaunty and and gay afterwards, especially when he Blamed his mom for fucking everything. So that was the thing. Yeah, because Dennis doesn't place any blame on his dad for leaving Okay, it was all of his mother and because he like guaranteed. He was like, yeah, dad was bored He came in here. He came into town from fucking Scandinavia where he was used to skiing everywhere Yeah, of course, he came to Freishabbiak and hated it here. Of course. Yeah He'd they said that he used to just get wasted in the pubs every night. He worked at a tobacco factory during the day And after about three years, he just fucked off back to Norway and said I'm not coming back. All right, makes sense And Nilsen about his mother

He said for years that she was a good woman and everyone who met Nilsen's mother said she was a warm woman She was a kind woman when Dennis would talk about his mother to like his co-workers They said he always did it with love But in his quest to rewrite his life Nilsen claimed in history of a drowning boy that his mother was actually a terrible person Who along with his grandmother was probably responsible for his grotesque fetishes? Oh, yeah, because I always remember because he always talked about what his mom would bring a fresh corpse home and that they would Play with it like it was an uncle visiting from out of town. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they're completely responsible I don't know. Is it classified as a fetish the corpse? Yeah, it's bigger than a fetish

I feel like it's shrumps a fetish. Whatever makes you shoot is technically a fetish. Okay. All right. Well, that's it. All right It just depends if it moves from an idea to your job Yeah Nilsen said that his mother and his grandmother would pass him back and forth when he was a baby like in his words an unpleasant object They said he was merely a quote acted upon in rituals of carrying stripping bathing powering dressing and laying out by strong towering powers Huh

He does all the twist ours. He's a very drool. He's a very lovely accent. Honestly, it's very when you speak with him He's very intoxicating to listen to where you can see sort of the Edgar Allen Poe But even more British side of him Like pop out. Yeah, he's one of the few serial killers where you're like actually he's kind of charming But that also could be just like our whole like American fascination with like a British and Scottish accents, right? Wow He's got a British accent. He's so smart, right? Fucking started about how many jobs we lose as American actors to British actors because they come over here for a pilot Susan and then all the British actors. They're like, oh Shakespeare

He just has an accent Acting and still be British and it was like when I met the guy that played Charles Manson in the Aquarius thing And he's like, hello, mate. How you doing there? Well Liam Helmsworth. Uh-huh. He sounds American, but he's British I like that and the guy from the office who was in Black Panther. Oh Oh Martin Freeman. He's British, too He was British in the office. You know what I mean? He was American in Black Panther. I couldn't even tell No, we haven't really gotten into what Dennis Nielsen actually did with his victims concerning that last statement that he made

Right, but let's just say that rituals of dressing undressing washing and laying out the bodies played a pretty goddamn big part in it Now Nielsen claimed that this emotional deprivation this clinical and perfunctory lack of affection Imprinted itself on his sexuality. He said it was that combined with what happened with his grandfather Okay Now Andrew White seemed to have been a good man who took care of his grandchild while Dennis's mother was out being a real Casey Anthony spending more and more nights out at the local pubs. What kind of DJs are there in Scotland? I wonder during this time? That's fun and so Dennis and his grandfather formed a strong bond

Nielsen said when he was a kid He took a soccer ball straight to the face, but his grandfather saved him with a quote magic sponge Although Brian Masters never actually got into what grandpa's magic sponge actually was. I just don't think Brian Masters asked specifically what grandma's magic sponge I don't want to go too deep into it But it does tell me it sounds like a cute thing the grandpa because like I remember my pop-pop You used to do a thing where you used to like, you know do like that Talking about his gamakas, which is what he called his nose and he pretended to take it

Then he'd also take his teeth out and go like play with his teeth when you're hurt and stuff and then you laugh as a kid And then it's like over so yeah, my grandfather did the teeth thing too. Yeah, and then I found it was it was all a lie Dentures, but if grandpa's magic sponge happens to be underneath his dick That is bad. Yes, but I don't think it was this is just a nice little his grandfather said this is the magic sponge And you feel better hold on it cuz okay. I'm gonna hold on it. I don't know I'm with the audience here We're just going down the road together, but in October of 1951 Andrew Whites health started failing okay white was like many in his town a fisherman and while out at sea one day He laid down in his bunk and out of a heart attack in his sleep. Okay, hopefully man. I can't wait for that

Yeah, so so restful, but the thing was no one in Dennis's family actually told him that his beloved grandfather's died So they're just weakened to Bernie's this whole thing He's just up there. They're just holding him like a damn puppet be like no, it's still Thanksgiving I think his jaw is falling off ma what I heard is that if I play with the grandpa's magic Spoonage we can find out if he's alive or not All Dennis knew was that the house was suddenly filled with crying people Then finally they brought the boy into the kitchen to look at his grandfather's dead body But still they didn't tell him that he was dead. They didn't even try to explain what death was they said he was only sleeping

This is a learning opportunity for the boy. Yeah, I mean he's like six which is like that's six is old enough That's when my that's when my grandfather passed away. I'll never forget it It was the first time I ever held somebody's hand as they were dying and you gotta you gotta do it Well, yeah, because no a part of it It's like yes He was only six years old and they thought they were sparing him they thought if they didn't say that he's just sleeping But a promise that I mean he was already He had bad wires

Right. Yeah, these guys. I mean, I think what it is is that you know, they have bad wires that are Crossed a little more easily than the rest of us sure Okay, and because most serial killers the wires they get crossed are sex and violence And that usually happens at a young age and that's part of what drives them But with Nelson the wires that got fused were love and death Oh, oh Sorry, I'm goth dancing Emo in 1985 he said quote my troubles started there it blighted my personality Paddleman netley. I have spent all my emotional life searching for my grandfather

He died Oh, I know and I'm very very happy about it. Oh Sponge now well a lot of this is kind of confusing in 2012 Nelson changed his tone which might actually explain all this a little bit better if it's true By 2012 Nelson came to believe that his grandfather was what Nelson called a quote hesitant pedophile and I think those are the best kind It also sounds like a Prague rock band And they had to change that title in 1996 once they came across the pond

Yep Nelson said he remembered his grandfather taking him out to a dark slit windowed Concrete pillbox guard post left over from the war. It's just a big concrete box. Okay. Yeah there Dennis said Andrew took down his pants held his penis and told him to urinate No, this is a thing has a tent pedophile. Now. This is the thing. I you know, I was close with my grandfather Didn't seem to be and never once did my grandfather hold my penis like he was coella de vil holding a cigarette So I feel like no matter how close you are that's like maybe cross it line Maybe that's how it's supposed to be done. Definitely straight. Is that as far as it went?

Well, he doesn't also kind of like Entertains the thought that his grandfather might have drugged his tea and stuck a finger up his butt a couple times Which Nelson said might explain why he was obsessed with defecation as a kid They say that quite a bit when it comes to kids that have been sexually assaulted is that they do oftentimes get obsessed with defecation So there's there is something to that, but also he was blowing up his whole life every single thing He was constantly looking for the reasons why his murders were not his fault. Yeah, okay a part of it his revisionist history of his childhood because a lot of things change and become darker because he's now Putting a new lens on everything trying to constantly discover like because a part of it's also the question to himself

It's like why am I like this? Yeah, I mean, I think with this case I don't know if we've ever studied a case where people were so focused on the why You know here in America like we do focus on the while a bit But it seemed like you know the Dennis Nelson case especially with when you read UK writers right about this stuff They really focus on the why more than anything else. Yeah, I think Dennis Nelson also focused on the why yeah around here It's usually just like the why because he's a monster Usually the why is pretty broad and vague, but I he was also their most prolific killer for quite a bit of time So I he got a lot of play in the UK and there was a lot of discussion and then it's the very

Very common trope now that we see of he was the quiet one how did you think he had a job? He wasn't a screaming Rambling maniac like he did all of this shit, but anybody that was close to him was like Dennis was weird Well now he killed 15 right 15 and so isn't he still number one by the UK standards? I believe so, okay Yeah, I believe he definitely got number one in the UK. Okay now this all this stuff about sexual abuse with his grandfather I mean if it is true Then there might be something to this if love and death became fused then it's possible that these incidents if they did indeed Happen could have brought sex into the mix as well

Because as we'll see something without a doubt link sex and death in Nelson's mind And that brings us to his other weird childhood sex possible fantasy that tries to explain away his awful behavior Now this is the incident that produced the title of the autobiography history of a drowning boy So when Nelson was about eight he was swimming in the ocean when he noticed an older boy watching him Suddenly though Nelson was swept underwater and started drowning, but the next thing he knew he said he was waking up naked on the beach with Quote a sticky white mess on his stomach I hate it it's If only if only the audience could see Ben's face right now

That is that is disgusting it's not nice it's gross as fuck But I will say the ocean is filled with disgusting things though Yeah, I've gotten out of the ocean in Florida. Mm-hmm, and you're just covered in weird things. Oh, yeah I hate I don't like you and you got fucking all sorts of shit. You got jellyfish. You got stingrays. You got jerk-off hungry boys looking for drown victims Yeah, and that's gross as fuck, but it also probably never happened Because as we'll see unlike other serial killers like John Wayne Gacy and Jennifer Bianchi who tried to lessen the abuse They suffered his kids. Nelson does his best to blow it out as much as he can. I see However, there were incidents of animal cruelty even though Nelson was reportedly very good to his little dog bleep his little cat

Dee Dee and his little budgie Hamish in his later years That is great turns of blood sashes when he was arrested Yes, maybe the meat pies there Well, even though he was good animals when he was older as a kid He dabbled in zoo sadism when Nelson was nine years old He hung a cat by its neck from a wire in an abandoned bathroom just to see what would happen However, he said the whole thing actually made him sick Which I think if he's telling the truth tells you something about Nelson's emotional core

See Dennis Nelson without a doubt suffered from borderline personality disorder, but he also wasn't necessarily a pure sociopath I think he was actually a lot more complicated than that PD is a very very complicated illness Like it's a thing that and we see a lot of serial killers end up suffering from it mostly just because they either weren't Diagnosed they did not get the help that they needed and a lot of it's got to do with not having meds and therapy and all the stuff To talk about this shit because they are they do stuff But they're watching their hands do it and they are could they are like Dissociated from it, but they're still feeling everything Yeah, that's how my therapist explained it to me as we were chatting about Nelson on Thursday

Okay, yeah, she said that while like sociopaths feel nothing people with BPD actually feel the pain they're causing So it's like you're playing a first-person shooter. I'm like autoplay or something. Yeah, that's a way to put it But yes, it's just like that Yeah, I mean even though they still do these things they actually connect with their victim and this might tell you why guys like Dennis Nilsson and Jeffrey Dahmer wallow in their crimes after they're caught It's of course no excuse and doesn't make them any better than the rest as they still took lives at the end of the day But they do feel something besides just the fear of getting caught the way Nilsson would describe his life is that he said that he He had his regular life and then there everything else played in his mind like a film and that he watched everything

Separated from self and would see himself Doing things and then everything was deep deep fantasy and he eventually as you're gonna see it starts It was a little kid because I mean I was the same way I had a very very vivid imagination and then at some point it falls away, right? Or it's like my imagination still goes I have now what's called intrusive thoughts But that's just because of what we do for a living, but it mostly it's like This guy Dennis Nilsson looked at everything like it was a romantic fantasy and he could not Bring the two together he could not bring his fantasy world into his life and figure out how to do it until much later on

Hmm. Yeah, and this ability to do horrible things while still feeling It's also why these killers seem to be more sympathetic for example look at Eileen Wernos She was a classic borderline personality, but she actually had feelings like when you look into Eileen Wernos's shark eyes Like you still actually see something behind them. Yeah, she really did get into slow ride But a part of it is the it's it's a it's tragic because it really does because it's also a it's very difficult to treat and it is Very difficult to hear the the diagnosis Yeah, how do you know to go to the doctor if you have it like what tells you to go to the that's the thing that is Hard to understand if you got this

What maybe you just have a moment of clarity and then you make your appointment or I don't know It just seems difficult if your actions are ruining your life And you have no control over said actions then it's time to go and then get checked out And then if someone tells you hey you got this you have to listen to it because it's also it's very it's a very hard diagnosis to accept Sure, I can understand. Yeah, I understand the sleeping fetish But if it just like gets to the point that literally the only way you can come is if the other person acts dead I feel like you should just tell somebody you know a consensual situation, you know Yeah, but just tell tell like a couple of people and see a bunch of people's reactions

Just kind of see how people you know, I mean like just just test it out With somebody with like a doctor. I wouldn't bring it up at the bar So just after the cat incident nilson's mother remarried and moved the whole family to a nicer town named Sturkin cool That was just a little bit further inland all right and life seemed to be fine or at the very least comfortable But the thing that drove Dennis away was being gay in a town that was never gonna accept him for who he was So Scotland so Scotland now I don't know anything about us Scotland's nice. We don't know if it's a homophobe

You don't know a little bit religious maybe what are you aren't you thinking of Ireland? Are they different? I'm thinking of the killed people. No, I don't know. I'm sure there's a lot of wonder I know for a fact there's a lot of open-minded wonderful people there. I'm just just joking around here Well, let's make it a joke here trying to get the little humor in there So Dennis nilson after figuring this wasn't the place for him at the age of 14 and Probably is the only recourse for getting out of this town as soon as he could He signed up for a nine-year stint in the army just before his 16th birthday at

15 you could do that in England you can actually sign up for the army at faith I checked it out. You can sign up at 15 years and seven months for nine years. Wow It was a great thing that happened for him and life the rest of his life didn't happen It definitely gave him structure like he showed up. He didn't know what to do with himself He was he was not fitting in anywhere. He was getting a shit beat out of him He was like doing stuff. So when he showed up at the army, it was like a really good He's like, okay, I'll be I'll be a part of something. I'm gonna train I'm gonna do all this shit. And so he went in like open eye also

It quite had to do with the fact he did say that had to do with the men in uniform at the office And he knew kind of instinctually being like so you mean to tell me I got to be in a barrack With a bunch of just sweaty green-covered men Pushing up on each other like it's great for him. Whatever it takes. I love it So Nelson when he went in he took all of his tests and scored his highest marks in catering science catering science Yeah, what do you mean? Yeah, you're doing science that's like waiting like wait wait wait wait wait wait wait That's how Dennis Nelson became a career army cook. Oh, he's not no you do not they don't have waiters You know the common privates are not waiters at the mess hall

Have you ever heard of an army waiter? I don't think so, I don't know. And the army is also where Dennis Nelson began to develop his lifelong love of booze. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Nelson saw himself as just another kid who needed a pint or two so he could relax around the other guys in his squad,

but others who knew him back then said Nelson was just a lightweight who got trashed off half a pint and generally annoyed everyone. Okay. Well that's kind of the, it's very classic because in the history of a drowned boy, it's all like, and everyone was delighted by my behavior. I would go and nip back a couple of suds

and everyone would be like, oh Dennis, I wish you were around all the time. And I said, oh, quit foaning over me, poultry young men, slapping their thighs, kissing their cheeks. Just cut to him dancing on the table, kicking over everybody's plates, drinking out of their cups, grabbing two pays, just being like, we had a wonderful evening,

didn't we guys? And then he's also like 115 pounds soaking wet so people would just fucking roll him out of a bar. Like every single time he would fuck around, a bunch of people would be like, all right, this is done. And just grab him and essentially he would just get tossed from place to place. Yeah, I will say, I will give you credit for this Henry.

Occasionally, specifically in Philadelphia, I was so drunk you channeled your inner god of war and you picked me up over your shoulder like I was a tree limb or more dragged me like a toboggan. But nonetheless, it would be a good job. Yeah, but you felt, well luckily it was snowing. Yes. The ground was wet and I literally had to drag you

like you were in those palm fronds like rafts that you'd be in the jungle when someone breaks their leg. Well, Nilsen's drinking allowed him to place himself in sexual situations, even if it was only subconsciously at first as it was during his first posting in Germany. One morning, Nilsen woke up after a long night of drinking next to a German that Nilsen referred to only as fat Hans.

Man, you could have just called me Hans. Yeah, I do not appreciate the nickname, but also do you have any chocolate? I only have the finest milk chocolate in the morning and I have a sausage just for my second breakfast and off I've come. Yeah, when you do hear the name Hans, you do think a very muscular guy.

Perhaps I'm just thinking of Kevin Nielsen's character from SNL, but that is what I think of. So yeah, you have to clarify, fat Hans. Now Nilsen had gone blackout the night before, but he assumed he'd just stayed over at fat Hans's place because he was too drunk to walk back to base. But still, this situation gave Nilsen a fantasy. Imagining just the possibility that the German

had abused him in some way, Nilsen said, quote, My mind thrittled at the thought of this fat German undressing and fondling me, because that was his whole thing was that he was like, he would build it all always into being like how irresistible he was when he was drunk. So when he would say he had this endless, endless fantasy of getting so drunk and that he would lay there asleep

and he just know that no one would be able to help but like play with his butthole and suck on his penis while he was asleep. Oh, okay. Yeah, and the fact that fat Hans was fat and ugly made it even hotter in Dennis's mind because it played into his fascination with androgyny. And then he took it even further.

Dennis started imagining the same scenario but with some of his fellow soldiers. So to try to make this a reality, Nilsen would pretend to pass out on the odd chance that a fondling might occur. Oh, I was just like, how does everybody else feel? Do they feel as tired as I am? Because I am just so, oh, my butthole is exposed.

Yeah. Certainly it would be a tragedy if something were to happen to it. It's just a strange honeypotting going on here, but okay. Yeah, and you could just see the other dudes just like staring at him. Yeah. They're like, what are you doing, Dennis?

I'm playing the Vos game. Wouldn't it be a terrible, terrible series of circumstances if someone were to put several thorned flowers in my buttocks and sit here exposed waiting to be pranked? That would be kind of wild, but nothing like that ever actually happened. And in January of 1967, the carefree days of Germany ended when Nilsen was transferred to Aden

in the Gulf of Arabia, now present day Yemen. What were the years you said there? 67. Oh, okay. Yeah, and in Aden, he was a cook at a terrorist detainee prison in the city of Al-Mansura. She got serious. Al-Mansura was also our gutter guy in Queens

when we were kids. He was there, he would always clean out all the gutters, loved out. Not best when he's in Yemen though. Yeah, yeah, well, it was Aden back then or Aden, A-D-E-N. I think maybe it's Aden. But in Aden, Nilsen saw actual dead bodies. Even though he was a cook,

he was still required to go on patrol. And since Aden was a British colony on the verge of independence, the city was littered with bodies. I think the Russ coffee compared it to like modern day Afghanistan, but like Afghanistan at its height. And you knew he was the cook,

because he had a pot on his head and they gave him a ladle to fight with. And that's not appropriate. I think he deserved a lot more equipment. But Nilsen said that these dead bodies that he saw, these war casualties, didn't actually do anything for him because any sort of visible mutilation

spoiled the fantasy, because Nilsen liked his men clean. However, although it didn't fuel his fantasies, Russ coffee postulates that this is where Nilsen became desensitized to dead bodies. After that, it wasn't a stretch for the fantasies of unconsciousness to cross over and do a place of pure death.

Okay, well, a part of Dennis Nilsen's thing is that he wanted to show how unaffected he was. And that made him manly and that's what made him good at the army. And he would talk about it all the time, but how he's like, none of these bodies bother me. And they're all like, please stop, please stop Dennis.

So it's literally like, he wasn't bothered, but he wasn't aroused. It was like totally just a neutral, like I'm just going about my day, like looking at a mailbox. It's just whatever. But that's the thing, he saw those bodies and that sort of crossed back

into the memory of his grandfather. And so that memory is starting to come back more and more and it's starting to meet the dead bodies and the unconscious fantasies halfway. So this is a slow, like all of this stuff, like slowly comes together over a period of years. And this is still his teenage years, right? He's in his early 20s at this point.

I think it's like, I think it's like 21, 22. And death almost came to Dennis Nilsen in Aden. One night, while drunk, he hailed a cab and passed out in the back seat. He was awoken by a blow to the head and then while he was stunned, he was stripped of his clothes and bundled into the trunk of the cab.

Boing! So sexy for him. And when Nilsen woke up, he fumbled around in the trunk until he found the cold metal of a car jack. He grabbed it, waited until the cab driver opened the hatch and when he did, Nilsen clobbered him, took the cab driver's clothes

and ran away back to the base. Is that story real? It's, there's no proof of it, but at least Russ Coffey says that there was probably an element of truth to it. Because I think, and he said with a lot of Dennis Nilsen stories, like there's an element of truth to all of it.

So it could be true, but it might also not be. So we know he passed out in the back of a cab. We know he passed out in the back of a cab and had an altercation with a cab driver. Because he would also do that all the time. And he's in a war zone, but he would talk about how brazen he would be. He'd leave the group that was drinking at night

and go drink further. And then his MO was to get into a cab and pass out just in case someone would suck his dick while he's asleep. Thinking that everyone's gonna do this and they can't leave him alone. Like it's a cheese plate in an office kitchen. Where it's just like, no, that's not how it works.

Like, I mean, like, but this, who knows? Who knows? Nilsen, whether it happened or not, he just popped this experience right into the old spang-bang. And he fantasized constantly about the old taxi driver fondling him while he was passed out. Another thing that helps solidify this connection

between sex and death was a painting by Theodore Jericho named The Raft of Medusa. In the painting about a dozen men, both living and dead, are lost at sea on a rickety raft about to sink. But what got Dennis going specifically was an old man and a young boy in the foreground. The young boy was dead,

and coincidentally, the only one naked. That boy was draped across the old man's lap, and the old man sat with one arm over the young boy, resigned to his fate, almost bored. Yep, just him and his this young dead boy and his magic sponge. Just sitting, waiting for Medusa to turn them all into stone.

I understand. Maybe, maybe the father, maybe he was mourning the loss of a child. Maybe, maybe. I think that would be the normal interpretation, don't you think? Quite possibly. Would ever kiss him.

You fucking lame, bro. I mean, that would be. Okay. Yeah, but his dick and balls were out. Well, you can be sad naked. I don't know. Some of my sadder times have been naked. Yeah, I don't, for sure.

But also most of my happier times. Now this painting made something click in Dennis Nelson's brain, and the fantasies only got weirder from there, because now he has that picture of old man naked young boy. And while all of this may seem gratuitous, talking about all of these fantasies,

especially what we're about to get into, it's all very important to the understanding of Dennis Nelson and to his eventual career as a serial killer. What brought him to the point of his first murder? It's his shallow view of his fantasies and how important his fantasies became to him over reality. And it's important to see that the build

of his fantasy world became like, in most people, it's 10% of your existence as your fantasy world is your, and for him, it became an all consuming, had to make it real. Yeah, so in June of 1967, Nelson was transferred again to what is now the United Arab Emirates.

This is right when the UAE struck oil, so this place was, I mean, it was getting rich real fast. All right. Now here, Nelson had his first homosexual experience, although it was far from what you would call an ethical one. Okay. Apparently in this posting, local teenage boys were assigned

to clean the rooms of British officers. Err, record scratch right there. Yeah, dude. You know what I mean? It's like, make them strap in young men. Make them men. They don't have a men clean in the room. This is a bunch of vulnerable boys.

UAE, they used to do as a two years ago child jockey racing, which is literally slavery and it was horrible. And now they replaced them with little machines, little robots. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I guess so. Well, since Nelson was an NCO corporal,

he had a room and a boy all to himself. And these boys regularly sold their affections to the officers, if you know what I mean. What do you mean? They laugh at their jokes? I don't know. Let's not go too deep into it. So one day, Nelson made his move.

However, it probably did not end in penetrative sex, as that wasn't really Nelson's bag. On the other hand, it's hard to pin down exactly what Nelson's bag actually was, because this is about the time the mirror came into play. Oh, you know what? Can I do a yada, yada, yada? Here, can we just yada, yada, yada?

This is all extremely important. No, with this next bit, this is the problem. Because I remember when I was a kid, right? When I was 14 years old, I think a part of what became, the reason why I am who I am, is that they put the computer in my room when I was 13 years old and I had a lock on that door. And there was a time in there, what I would say is not like,

not anywhere close to this, but my masturbation world became very ornate. In a short period of time. Emphasis on short. Yeah! That's a roast mode. Roast mode! As we said, Nelson had a private room,

so when he had a day off, Nelson would lock his door and spend the afternoon masturbating while he stared at himself in the mirror. Like Buffalo Bill. Yes. And then he took it further. He realized that if he could position the mirror in just the right way, he could hide his own head

and imagine his own body as the body of another man, while his own head would be someone else completely. So he had two people going. He also made his hand, he sat on his left hand until it was numb, he called it the stranger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he would do that thing where he'd build it out and he'd say that the guy in the mirror was somebody else,

which I honestly, I imagine really works, especially if you're a young gay man in the military and you don't know what to do and you don't know how to express yourself to other people and it works. But it's just how it turns. Yes. Yeah, yeah, because he said he never imagined

that the head had a face, he just imagined it as a dirty old man with gray hair. And Nelson would switch back and forth. Sometimes he'd play the boy and sometimes he'd play the old man. Yeah, like an old-timey vaudeville routine, but instead of laughter, it ends in calm all over yourself. Intriguing.

It's just, you know, just an old man just sat there and started, show him again, do it again, from the do the dance. And then he's like, oh no, I'm sleeping. I couldn't possibly answer you. Meanwhile, his barracks mate next door is here in the whole thing, do the wall. And the whole time, prog rock is playing, huh?

Not yet. Not yet, not yet. Oh, not yet. Oh, okay. We're about to get into what Nelson's musical tastes were at this time. Okay. Well, after he kind of got tired of the mirror game,

he went even further and he started bringing costumes and makeup into the mix. He would put talc on his face to give it a white appearance, then smear charcoal under his eyes to give it a dark, hollow look. He then put holes in his t-shirt to represent gunshot wounds and mixed red food coloring with saffron to make blood.

In effect, Nelson was making himself dead. So he was the corpse that he was masturbating to. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well. This is really elaborate. Oh, it gets even more elaborate. Oh, it gets even more elaborate.

This is just the setup. Okay. He'd then lie down and stare at himself, slack jawed in the mirror until he started drooling, and that's when his imagination would take him away. And you see, and this is, and like what we learned from Lavar Burton, that a book is an invitation to the world.

Yeah. And your imagination can take you anywhere. Yeah, some places maybe. You don't want to go, but. He imagined himself to be a French dissident in World War II, shot, killed, and left in the woods to rot by an SS officer. He would then be found by an old hermit living in the woods

who would drag French Dennis's body back to a shack. This'll make for a good scrubbing, gotta bring him back to the shack and better than nice for a French bully, mentally and nice and still. And he's like, say some more, said to tell it again. There, the old hermit would strip French Dennis naked

and talk to him as he would an old friend. Yeah, you remember when the Golden State Warriors were really fucking kicking ass right now, huh? Yeah, they're really doing well. You know what I would like to watch? We're at that wild, wild country on Netflix and they checked it out. It was very good, very good.

Is it Rajneesh? Very good. Sheila was the brains of the operation. That's how it came out. All right. After that, the hermit would wash him, tie his penis and put wadding up his anus. French Dennis would then be thrown into a grave and buried.

But later, the old man wouldn't be able to help himself. So he'd go and dig French Dennis back up and take him back to the shack where the hermit would masturbate French Dennis' dead body and tell his penis and only his penis would come back to life to shoot a load all over the hermit. Hey, Dennis, what you doing in there? We've had your five minutes to go dinner.

Hey, buddy, hey, buddy, hey, there was somebody. Yeah, because he was, this whole time his barracks makes worth thinking he was just taking an afternoon nap. The saddest thing is he's the chef. And that is really, the whole thing is disgusting, but it's his own masturbation. He can do whatever he wants.

Never should have killed people. But the really, I just don't like, do you want more soup? Like, no, I'm good. Hey, Dennis, why are you winking all the time? Every time you're handing out all these French bread pizzas. Sounds like a little practical joke there. So from the Middle East, Dennis was transferred back

to Germany where he discovered one of his lifelong passions, filmmaking. Oh, okay, so he's a filmmaker now. Yeah, I did not know that. He bought an eight millimeter camera on a whim and started filming everything. Well, that's good. Nothing creepy is filmed with an eight millimeter,

so that's a good sense. Obviously, he had no stag films, remember, only filmed with an eight millimeter. But his job was, so he got really into cameras, but there's something about camera guys where if you don't actually become a director, like if you don't, because you became obsessed and then it became turning everyone,

everything became a fucking project and he had to micromanage all forms of shooting everybody and he would do it for hours and hours. And there's just something about those guys where if you don't move into actual professional film work, that it's like, why do you always have to like, freeze my soul onto this film? Like, why is it so important to you?

It kind of makes sense because he's disassociating himself with society. We see it all the time. Now people filming someone who is in peril with their phones as opposed to helping, you know? So that actually kind of makes sense that he would go into that as a profession or at least a hobby.

It's definitely a hobby and he went even further than that as far as depersonalization because he'd just routinely make his friends pretend like they were dead. They'd just lie there. Just pretend like you're shot and dead. So just lie there for a little while. And he'd film them for a really long time

and then he had one guy that lonely private who had no friends to play dead for him multiple occasions where he'd dress them up like a dead body and he'd film them for an uncomfortable period of time. And then Nelson would take the game footage back to his apartment late at night and he'd watch it like first pretending

like I'm doing homework, I'm trying to be a better filmmaker and then he'd have to leave to go jerk off and then come back and then eventually the dude that was shooting him was like, this is weird. Please stop filming me. I don't wanna do this anymore. Well, I don't know, man. I think that guy might've been like, easy money.

Just gotta play dead for 20 minutes. He's not making money. Oh, he's not paying him. Oh, yeah, you wanna pay your actors. Yeah, this isn't sag. Oh well, you wanna pay your actors. Now besides that unpleasant incident, Nelson paints this time in his life

as one of his happiest. But a fellow NCO who emailed author Russ Coffey in 2005 dispelled a lot of what Dennis had to say about himself. The first thing the NCO had to say about Nelson was that he had very, very poor hygiene. Although he didn't go into detail as to why he said he had poor hygiene.

Hence the UK version of Jeffrey Dumber. Yes. Second thing he mentioned was that Nelson couldn't hold his liquor. And the third was Nelson's strange taste in pets. This is when the pet thing really started. The first thing he bought was a minor bird. You ever heard of a minor bird?

No, what's a minor bird? They're kind of like parrots that can mimic human speech, but it sounds really creepy. You know what a minor bird is? If you try to take it, I say that's a minor bird. That's kind of like a nacho chi. Like what do you call it? Cheez, it's not yours.

Not your chi. It's very, very cute. You call a bird that's a minor bird. Don't try to take it. This is the kind of family entertainment that allowed us to be the most listened to podcast in 10 states. That's right.

That's right. So when he bought the minor bird, he didn't buy a cage. He just let it loose in his room, but he was in Germany now. He didn't have a private room, so he had a roommate that had to deal with all of this yet. So his roommate is living like the living room in Nightmare and Elm Street, part two,

with a bird just flying around, but unfortunately, it never dies? Yes. Well, Nielsen's superior officer made him return the minor bird the next day. He's like, this is ridiculous. You can't do that. What do you think he said to his officer?

It's minor bird. But it's minor bird. But it's a minor bird. They say I'm not needed on the show. So Nielsen, after he returned the minor bird, he bought a mud turtle that he named Napoleon the 14th. Oh, that's funny. Yes, Napoleon the 14th was an homage

to the Dr. Demento mainstay band known for this novelty hit. What? Ben, you might know this one. He knew Demento, huh? Well, I mean, I don't know if he knew Demento specifically. Okay. I think Demento.

I think he was just an American guy. I don't know if they had Demento over in the UK. Oh, OK, all right. So here's that song. They're coming to take me away, ha-ha. They're coming to take me away, ha-ha. To the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time. And I'll be happy to.

You know, this is why I don't conceal and carry, because I would have immediately shot myself in the head. It is. That song is very creepy if taken seriously. I mean, like, if not taken seriously, it's fun. Because I remember as a little kid loving that song. Yeah, me too. And if you think about it now, as someone like Dennis Nilsson,

that song playing while he's washing a dead body in his bathtub, he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I wish they did. I wish they had done that. But that is some. He would listen to that like it was music, right? Yeah, like it was like zeppelin. I think he thought it was funny. He did think it was funny.

He definitely thought it was funny. Yeah, it was a funny song. Yeah, the title, Dr. Demento was very popular. Yeah, people love novelty songs. No, I mean, that was introduced by Dr. Demento. And then Dr. Demento came back, was like, that was a goofy tune. You know, that would be fun.

You know, they hit the top of the charts in 1966. Really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, gold record. Man, what happened in 66 where people had drugs? Yes. So according to the NCO, Nilsson kept Napoleon the 15th

in a stinky tub under his bed and would feed raw chunks of meat. And he then challenged anyone who came into his room to try to take meat from the turtle. It's cute. But then he'd do like a joke. He's like, ah, maybe you don't want to feed a dead meat. You want something fresh. That's what you go.

You young lady, you'll have something fresh. Because that was the other thing with Nilsson is that he was an almost professional level cock block. He would do, because that was his whole thing, was that because he couldn't have relationships with any other men, and that it was around him, and he couldn't figure what to do, was that he would just ruin the chances of any dude that

was trying to close it with a woman at the end of the night. And so when his roommate would bring chicks home, he'd be like, look at my stinky fucking turd. And I'd pull it out and feed it fresh meat and shit until she left. Now Nilsson said he left the army after nine years, because he couldn't see a place in it for a homosexual such as himself.

And while the sentiment may have been true, it wasn't the actual reason why Nilsson left the army. In reality, Nilsson was asked to leave. He was. Oh yes. He had applied for a further service extension, but was denied because of his bad hygiene and a fistfight he had with his roommate about the smell coming

from Napoleon XIV. You know, that is always interesting when you're like, I want to die for this country. And the country is like, we don't want you. We can't have you anymore. We don't want your corpse. Yes, yes, please leave. His whole thing was he explained it

the way saying that the reason why he actually chose to leave was because no one understands a gay man in the army. And so he made it immediately how he was a victim, and how it was about his lifestyle. I'm sure to some degree that is accurate. Well, I mean, I don't. Sure. Yeah, I mean, to some degree, but that wasn't the reason.

He was trying to sign up for an extension. Right, right, right, yes, yes. No, he just used it. He used it, you know, he did that shitty thing that people do where they use actual prejudice that does actually exist and they apply it to themselves to excuse their shitty behavior. Sure, sure.

So in other words, once again, Dennis Nelson painted himself as a tragic romantic. He was put upon by the world at large when, in reality, he was actually just a weird, annoying Dr. Demento fan that nobody actually liked. OK. And that narrative seemed to continue when Nelson left the army and became a police officer in London.

What? I mean, yeah, dude. I mean, because he left, right? He went back home after getting out of the army. And you go to the, they have a thing called like the United Army Career Advice place, like essentially like a guidance counselor for the army. Because he'd been in the army since he was 16 years old.

He came out 11 years later. He goes to them being like, what should I do? And the first thing they said is like, you should be a prison guard. And it's just like, oh, because I guess the first thing is like, you love to wrestle a man against his will. You love to have, you love to smell his feces. You love to smell his feces.

And he's just like, you're right, that doesn't make sense. They're like, well, maybe you could be a police officer, because it takes a little bit less upper arm strength. Yeah, that's exactly who I want as my peace officer. I mean, so it's interesting, Dr. Demento, you know, like the fans, it was weird out Yankevech and Dennis Nelson. So it's like, it's interesting that with us as well,

all of our listeners, we have a diverse swath of people as well. I just hope that we have more weird Al Yankevech than that. We want more creatives. Yeah, more creatives. Yeah, and the police, the guys that served Dennis Nelson, they also knew that there was something off about this guy. Because Dennis Nelson's narrative that, oh,

they didn't like me because I was gay, when in reality, he was just a creepy weirdo, that continued into the police. But one of his fellow officers said, after it came out that an ex-cop had been arrested for multiple murders, the ex-cop said, quote, if it's true, he's an ex-cop. I have my monies on it being Dennis Nelson. Really?

Yeah, they knew. OK. But it's the things that Nelson didn't ever actually do anything horrible when he was a cop. He said that his service was pretty boring. Like, he just kind of went out and like shook his truncheon. How long was he a cop for? Like, nine months.

Oh, nine. OK, so pretty short. A stint there. Pretty short stint. But with Nelson, it was more of a vibe. Like, his mentor was an officer named Peter Wellstead, who made it a point to take all his new recruits to the morgue on their first day.

Get him used to life on the streets. And here's where it's going to get creepy again. Nelson said he saw a 12-year-old girl on a slab whom he thought looked like a boy. And Nelson watched as an assistant, an old man with the hunchback, wheeled her around the room. And again, Nelson's fantasy was not about himself. It was about the old man.

You get it? No, but I understand what you're saying. So he puts himself in the shoes of the old man. Yeah, it's the same thing. He keeps accidentally finding himself in the same scenario where an old man is moving a limp body back and forth, and it made some pop a boner instantly. I have to say, most people go through their whole life

never seen an old man around a corpse. And evidently, he's seen it like a dozen times now, which is just, it's a little strange, of course. Be the change you want to see in the world. I suppose. Now, it's rumored that Nelson was asked to leave at nine months after he was caught masturbating over a body in the morgue.

But that is unsubstantiated. That's more of a rumor than anything. Oh, Jesus. Nelson said he left the force because, again, he couldn't see a place for himself there. So he got a job at the Job Center, where he would work until his arrest as a boring old civil servant. He went to the Job Center and gave me a job,

and they said, you can work here. I like that he took it literally. That's the Job Center. That's where you work. Well, yeah, I mean, he had the patience for it, and his patience will also be described later on as he would sit with the bodies and very specifically cleave them of their meat.

OK. But before Nelson left the police, he was indirectly introduced to the London gay scene by the homophobic comments of a fellow officer. Yeah, sometimes homophobia helps. Because a police officer, at one point they were all hanging, I was like, ah, if you want to hang out with the other fancies, you go down to this area of town.

And he was like, oh, really? Let my fingers do the walking, and then my penis do the tucking. Well, isn't that crazy? So he found out that way, huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The officer told Nelson that you better stay away from Earl's Court, because that's where all the gays are. Wait, it's called Earl's Court?

Earl's Court. Court. OK. I thought it was Earl's Court. Well, either way, Earl's Court, OK. Yeah, so naturally that night, Nelson just made a beeline straight to Earl's Court. OK.

And that's where he found bars like The Black Cap, The Golden Lion, and The Champion, not to mention The Pigeon Whistle, which was said to be the best spot for Sunday lunchtime cruising in London. There's a Pigeon Whistle here in New York City. I've been there for brunch. Very tasty. Oh, yes.

Yeah, how was the cruising? It was good, man. Yeah, very good. Yeah, I bet you caught it. You're quite a bit of chum for a bunch of lads out there. I'm not sure. I don't know. I do very well.

Now, I could see a bunch of those things, the remoras? What are the things that suck under a shark? Yeah, remora. Yeah, I could see a bunch of those all over here, a bunch of little tinier guys. Hey, I bet you many a gay bar with my brothers, I went to one called The Cock many years ago, After Hours, they didn't have any more beer.

They stopped serving beer. But what did they have? Oh, my god. Well, they were engaged, and they were having fun there. I'll tell you that. So while drinking in The Champion one night, Dennis met an 18-year-old named David Galashan. The two went home together, and after just a single night,

Nilsen impulsively asked the boy if he would be interested in getting an apartment together. Oh, my goodness. And so the two found a place and moved into 195 Melrose Avenue, where Nilsen would commit the bulk of his 15 murders. The kid said yes? Yeah.

Jeez. He was a bit of an impulsive kid as well. OK. Not surprisingly, though, things between Dennis and Twinkle, as Dennis would call him, didn't work out. There were multiple problems, but one of the biggest was their difference in music tastes. Dennis Nilsen becomes sort of like a version

of like Patrick Bateman. Yeah, I was thinking that. He becomes obsessed with music. Yeah, OK. But like only the bands that he likes, like Huey Lewis for Psycho. Yeah, it's only Huey. But it's certain like frequencies just hit him.

And it's a very specific kind of music. All right. See, Nilsen, he'd moved on from novelty hits and was big into classical music and prog rocks. Specifically, the sounds of guys like Mike Oldfield and Rick Wakeman of the band Yes. So I know you're not familiar with Rick Wakeman. I know Yes.

I know the band. Oh, yeah. But he was specifically in a Rick Wakeman solo work. OK, yeah, very specific. So he's, oh, right. So here's an example of Wakeman's style to get you into the mind of the most notorious serial killer in British history behind Jack the Ripper.

This one's called Bombay Duck. Just when Castlevania, man, like that is they even love it. I listened to that whole album last night. It's really fun. Are there any words or is it all electronica? It's just an instrumental. It's keyboard. Instrumental.

Oh, that's a keyboard. OK. Yeah, Moog. He's like part of that Moog era. And also just washing a bunch of dead bodies to that. Yeah, that's strangling to it. It's not bad. It's just like it's not like I listen to music

to relate to it to on one. Yeah, it's like, in my mind, it's like, you know, because what do we view? The famous serial killer that we know that was a fanboy was Richard Ramirez and AC DC. Exactly. And back in the days, like we could see that AC DC, like you can see listening to fucking like a god no, like TNT,

I guess. Like I know that's one of their sillier hits, but you listen to a highway to hell the first time it comes out and you're just like murdering a bunch of people. You could see that uptempo, but there's something about the, it's like, it's very strange to be to accompany murder. It literally seems like a pie shop on Thanksgiving.

Where they're just like, we're going to get these pies out. We have thousands of pie orders. Well, that's only a small sampling of Rick Wakeman's work. But it does seem to be kind of, that's in the wheelhouse of what we listened to before. Yeah, yeah, and like Rick Wakeman, like he did like these big concept albums. Like he did a big concept album about like King Arthur.

He did a concept album about the wives of Henry the Eighth. Cool. And a couple others. Like it's really, it's actually pretty cool stuff. I really like Rick Wakeman. Now, while that may not make much sense, Rick Wakeman might not make much sense as far as like listening to the songs like we did with Richard Ramirez,

listening to AC DC and all that. But maybe this song, Nelson's favorite song, might give you a little bit more insight. So this is the all time favorite. This is Dennis Nelson's all time favorite song. OK. This is the soundtrack to almost every one of his murders. OK.

Yeah. This is a song, and we're going to listen to just a little bit of it to get into Dennis Nelson's head just a little. This is Oh, Superman by Laurie Anderson. Oh. Oh, Superman. Oh, John. Oh, John.

Oh, John. Oh, John. Oh, mom and dad. Ooh. It's, I, it's good. It's weird. I love this. I love this song.

That was actually on my pill mix when I went through my weird phase when I was into fucking smoking a whole joint eating a couple of hydrocodones and fucking college. That was like one of the songs I would sit and stare at my ceiling to. Yeah. I love that you called that a phase. How long have you been doing that for now?

Oh, I've stopped. I don't do pills anymore. Yeah. You stopped the pills. Oh, that's good. Those will get you. Well, I mean, that song, it's eight and a half minutes long. That's right.

That kind of progression tends to, it carries on for the entire eight and a half minutes. It does seem like something Harley Quinn would sing. I guess so. It's got a joker like the ha ha stuff in the background. Interesting that you took that away from that. But it doesn't make sense. Yeah.

Yeah. But Twinkle hated all of this. Yeah. Yeah. Twinkle was like, Twinkle's like an 18 year old kid. What's a Twinkle like? Uh, just stuff, Bay City Rollers. Just different kind of music.

Okay. More popular maybe. A lot more popular stuff. This is like pretty, Prague's pretty, pretty high brow. Okay. Eventually, Twinkle left Dennis for an older antiques dealer, leaving Dennis all alone. The only things that Dennis got out of this relationship, and these

actually is a pretty good haul. Got a cute little mutt named Bleep, a cat named Dee Dee, and a private garden, which would be put to horrific use about a year later. Now some have said that Twinkle leaving was the catalyst for Dennis's entry, but that's just the lazy answer. It completely misses the point of what drives men like Nilsen. The point is that they're attracted to dead people. Yes.

It's the thing. It's the thing. Oh, yeah. I see now. That's because the living are fine, and they'll work in a pinch, because like Nilsen had a string of summer flings before the killing began, which were, by the accounts of the flings, relatively normal, but that's not where the desire really lies.

It's not like he killed her. You have to get dead people to come. I see. It's not a good combination, and you need to tell somebody. You need to just say, hey, this is like an idea. Hey, spitball in here. I think I only come when I see dead people. I see.

Like a Haley Joel Osment, but grown up. Yeah. That's not good. The sex sense. This is, only on this show does that sentence get uttered. Like that's not what got him upset. The problem is you want to have sex with dead people. Okay.

Yeah, because he wasn't, because everyone, that's why the book is called Killing for Company. They say that Dennis Nielsen, because that's what Brian Masters, that's what his whole thesis was. He killed for company. He killed because he was lonely, but I don't think that's the case at all. Okay.

Yes. I mean, a part of it's also the very, what is the Jeffrey Dahmer excuse, which they said is that I killed them because they were going to leave. Yeah. Because everybody in my life leaves because no one ever stays for the long haul forever. But the problem is the dead body doesn't either because in three

weeks you got to get rid of it. Right. Yeah. Now really with Nielsen it was just a slow build of mental illness, the escalation of fantasy, and of course also loneliness that resulted in the events of December 30th, 1978, when Dennis Nielsen committed his first murder. And loneliness did play a factor in it, but these guys always

put it as the number one factor, when in fact, it's about number three. Okay. Now on the day before New Year's Eve, Dennis Nielsen met Stephen Holmes in the Cricklewood Arms Pub located in Cricklewood. Oh, I like the Cricklewood Arms Pub. That's a fun name. Cricklewood.

Cricklewood. Cricklewood. Now, Holmes was only 14 and had ducked into the pub after a concert to warm himself up. He was on his way home. But Nielsen chicken-hawked the boy immediately and invited him back to his place for a few more drinks. Now nothing overtly sexual seemed to happen because the boy

wasn't gay. The two apparently just drank and passed out because that's another thing that people always say about Dennis Nielsen's victims, like they were all street homosexuals. Okay. But it was a mix. Yeah. He just sometimes, it's a buddy.

It's like a thing where he'd meet somebody. They'd hit it off. They'd get hammered. Again, when we were talking about it, it's like a 10 p.m. curfew at the party. It's like, let's go, let's go have a couple of my house. Sure. You listen to my hi-fi records where you're going to have to

listen to them in headphones. And that's like my big thing about audio files where they kind of creep me out where it's like, if you go to somebody's house and the only way to listen to the album so that they want you to listen to is over your headphones, they're playing in something. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I'd never do that. No. The headphones albums, those are for me. Okay. But Nielsen woke up before Stephen Holmes. Nielsen said he stared at the boy and thought about how nice it would be if he stayed for New York's Eve. But Nielsen knew it was more likely that as soon as he woke

up, the boy would be out of the door. And so Nielsen decided he was going to make him stay. Uh-oh. He picked up a necktie, wrapped it around the boy's throat and strangled him. But this only knocked Stephen out. So Nielsen finished him off by shoving the boy's head in a bucket of water until the bubble stopped coming.

And Nielsen said as he was doing it, he flashed back to the fantasy of the old man in the cabin. But with Stephen Holmes, Nielsen was the old man while the boy was Nielsen. And in thinking this way, Nielsen could achieve his fantasies of being both the perpetrator and the victim by using his victims as a surrogate. Circuit complete.

In his mind, murder was the only way that the fantasy could truly be achieved, making him admittedly more complicated than your average serial killer. But in the end, no different in the motivations. Very, very complex and confusing stuff there. Yes, he is. He obviously, this is a, it's not a simple problem. No, it is not.

So this is the first murder and now what age is he here? About 32. Yeah. All right. I mean, really like, this guy completely over-complicates everything because a lot of these guys, like when they talk, because serial killers, what it is, is that it's fantasy and reality coming together.

And a lot of these guys, the fantasy is so simple. Like the fantasy, like with a guy like Jerry Brutus, like, or like Leonard Lake, the fantasy is kidnap a woman, keep her in a room, and she's essentially my sex life. It's one, two, three. It's very simple. This is much more complex. And it's like, it's this huge web that makes him appear to be

more complicated and deep than he actually is, but he's not. Does he feel like he is killing himself? No, no, it's the opposite. It's, it's a, there's a thing where he does do that a little bit, but mostly it's about, I think it can be boiled down simply because he talks about it later on where he said the ultimate thrill and interviews while he's in jail. He said the ultimate thrill was the lifting of the dead body

to the tub because it was the limpness of somebody that was completely under his control. So it is a control thing. It's just so, so extreme. And he is the most product killer of product killers that we've really covered. Definitely a product killer. The murders were quick and he did not like to do it.

It was just to get the button. And that's Domoress too, right? Well, there were a couple of times where he did do it for a reason, but we'll get into that in the next episode. All right. So after killing Holmes, Nilsen hung the body upside down from the raptors and washed it clean. He then wrapped him in a curtain, put the body in his bed

and went back to sleep next to it to recover from his hangover. Oh my God. The next morning though, Nilsen tried to put the body under the floorboards, but rigor mortis had set in so Nilsen couldn't fit the body inside. Jesus. So after Dennis finally got the body under the floorboards, he only brought it back up once out of curiosity before

finally deciding to get rid of it in August of that year, eight months after the murder. What did his, now is this an apartment or a home? It's an apartment, but it's the ground floor of the apartment. Well, shouldn't that, doesn't that smell? I mean, he gets deodorants and things like that. And people who went to his apartment said it had a musty smell. That is being polite.

That's being polite. His apartment was smelly. They always said that he smelled. The apartment was disgusting. He would bury it. That's what he thought would cover it up is that he would take sticks of deodorant and he would bury it inside of the body. Like he threw it down in the rafters,

thinking it was going to cover it up. But this was just the first one. And so this was him burying it up. And they also talk about how like when he dug, when he looked at the body again, there was a part of him that did believe that the body would either disappear or that he would be alive. And then he would open it up and it would all be over

and the snare would be over. And then it wasn't because he killed somebody. So it sat in there and it ruined everyone's day. Yeah. Degree is about temperature. You know, that is what the deodorant is for. Not like first degree murder, second degree murder. We cover it up.

It's about like 98 degree weather. You won't be sweating. He got it all wrong. And so when Nelson finally decided he was going to get rid of the body. Good Lord. He built a bonfire in his backyard and burned the body until there was nothing recognizably human left.

And he threw a tire on the fire to hide the smell and it only gets weirder from there. So join us next week for the conclusion of Dennis Nelson and the other 14 murders. All right. So he's cracked, I guess the murder seal here. Yes, he has. All right.

Well, wow. Right. Interesting stuff. What a crazy character here. It's a very bizarre story. Yes. It's a very bizarre. Yeah.

Yes. It's very bizarre and it became a part of the UK true crime lexicon. This is one of the first UK serial killers that we've really covered in terms of like deal deep into one of these guys, one of their super famous guys besides old Jack and Fred and Fred and Rose West who were also very disgusting. Yeah, they were gross.

But the second half of this shows his full descent and complete madness. And then the very full go through the very famous way that he was caught. Okay. How long was this? How long are we going to be talking here? I don't know.

Five years. Five years. Oh my goodness. All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening. Dennis Nielsen. It's a fascinating case study in people. You know, you got to get your help out there.

Get your help. All of us, all of us have our help. We all have our help. Yes. You know, it only does so much. But join us. Join us. Softball team.

All right. That's a good way to get it out there. You know, like a kickball team, one of those things. Go to an embroidery class. Yes. Well, maybe tomorrow I'm going to go to a world or on center. I'm going to go to a World War II reenactment. So that's something fun to do too.

Can I guess what side you'll be on? I'm not going to reenact Henry. Good Lord. All right. Also remember, like, you don't have to get to the point of almost being a serial killer to get help for your mental illness because this is Mental Illness Awareness Month. Hey, all right.

We all get help for our shit and it's helped us out a lot. And thank you to everybody who gets ahold of us and say that we helped you get help too. So yeah, take care of yourself out there. Absolutely. Don't be a Nielsen. Don't be a Nielsen. I like that.

Don't be a Nielsen. Be a Wilson Willie Nelson. A Wilson? Yeah. There we go. Wilson Phillips as well or Wilson from Tool Time. I refuse to call it home improvement. All right, everyone.

Thank you so much for giving to our Patreon. Without you, none of this is possible. Go and listen to our episodes. Henry and I have been doing some very fun interviews. And we have a great interview coming up for you guys this week. I think you guys are really going to like it. Speaking of Evil Genius, we should be speaking with that producer there. And let's see.

Anything else, Marcus? What do you want to talk about? Be sure and go listen to all the other shows on the last podcast. Yes. Network, Go Check Out Abel, Link at Stop Pat. Page 7, Movie Sound with the Mads. What else we got over there? We got a whole bunch of stuff.

We got called. We got brand new. We got the adventures of Danny and Mike. Yes. Check that out. That's brand new. Check that out. They're ready and where to go.

They've had a podcast going for a while, but now they're a part of our network. And they should be doing some stellar shows in the future. Absolutely. And we just found out we are the number one podcast in the country. So I want to thank all of you for that from the bottom of our hearts. Thank you. We are the number one podcast in 10 states. 10 states.

Better than. And including my home state of Wisconsin, Minnesota's in there, Alaska, Florida. Parts of Texas. Half of Texas. Half of Texas. Actually, we're number one in the Midwest and number two in the West. And the South. And the South.

That's right. So thank you all so much for that. What a nice, pleasant surprise that was. It was really amazing. And the guy who wrote the article did not like the evidence he found. They were honest and he tended to bury the lead a little bit. But that's okay. He did definitely talk about all the podcasts that he was surprised.

It was a little bit on top of the charts. Definitely showed one of the things that's wrong with this country right now. And he talked only talked about how we're all different instead of talking about how we're all the same. That's right. And what we all share because last podcast on the left, whether the state be red, blue or purple. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And we thank you all very much. Thank you so much. That was such a nice, such a nice pick me up. We have a show coming up in San Diego. We have tickets available for purchase. It will be at the Belboa Theater on Friday, July 20th at 10.30 p.m. And please come.

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We're back on the road soon. This is the big Comic Con, right? This was the where it began, right? Do you think we could get Worf to come on one of our streams? Worf from Star Trek? Yeah, he'll be. I bet he'll be there. Yeah, dude.

I'll dress up like a Klingon. I'll get him over there. A lot of those guys are really busy trying to get light. So they don't want to do as much stuff. I think they're trying to get some money there too. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We have nothing to give them.

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