Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 321: Biggie and Tupac Part II - Scuttled

Episode Date: June 16, 2018

On the second of our three part series, we cover the East Coast/West Coast conflicts of 1995 and 1996 that led to the deaths of two legends as we follow the trail blazed by Detective Greg Kading. We're well on our way to finding out just who was responsible for the deaths of Tupac and Biggie. ​

There's no place to escape to. This is the last talk. On the left. That's when the cannibalism started. What was that? Man, I can't wait to hit the two-pot part of my career, man. Oh yeah? Just super fucking paranoid, fucking smoking on blizzons all night long.

I got a podcast talking about horror movies. One studio I do in our podcast, Main Live. I had to break it to you. I think you're in the middle of your two-pot phase. That's exactly what you do already. You get stoned every waking second that you're not talking your smoking marijuana. You're amazingly paranoid. Yeah, dude.

Well, you've got to be, man. Oh, eyes on me. Man, I got eyes in the back of my head. My eyes are on them. All right. Welcome to the last podcast on the left, everyone. I am Ben Kissel with Marcus Parks here on the East Coast. That's us.

And then West Coast, Henry Zabrowski. Can you guys, honestly, you guys can't see me. Are you trying to make a gang symbol with your fat Polish hands because it's really, you can't, it does not look, it looks like the penguin when you do it. You look like Danny DeVito's penguin. When I do, when I do the West Side, I do look like Danny DeVito's penguin. Is this bloods, this with the hand, with the curls up? It actually, you have just spelled bread.

You just spelled bread with your hands. All right. We are on to part two of Biggie and Tupac. Great reception for the first one. Yes. Which was, which was so nice to hear. So thank you for all the positive feedback. Well, I did also get some negative feedback.

Well, there was a small correction that has to be made, but that's okay. Little correction up top. Puff Daddy was not the son of Frank Lucas. All right. Puffy's dad, Melvin Combs, worked for Frank Lucas and was killed in a drug deal gone bad when Puffy was three. I made a mistake. Okay.

We're looking on the front lines of the podcast wars going on right now. Nobody understands that. We got shots coming our way. So we got to take shots going their way, man, because I am too real to be corrected. Yes. Nothing, nothing less physically violent than a podcast feud. We are not exactly a, none of us are a mobile people. We are sitters.

Is there anything more mentally violent than a one star review on it? All right. Let's do this. So when we last left our protagonist, Chug Knight and Tupac had just made a deal to spring Tupac from jail and exchanged for three albums on death row records. So remember Tupac came from a world of being like a street poet. Right. Thug life was about uniting the gangs, but when he came out of jail, his whole shit

had changed. He had become, he'd become very hardcore because he saw something in jail and it changed him and he came out swinging hard and now he has shook, has his back and it's kind of like making him feel very, very confident and the two of them are kind of a chicken in the egg scenario of who's making who worse. Okay. Meanwhile, Chug Knight's criminality was only getting bolder. In 1994, Chug allegedly directed his entourage to stomp a Roland 60s crypt to death during

a death row party at the L. Ray Theater where we had our Halloween show last year. No kidding. Wow. I didn't realize that was also the location for a stomp to death. Yeah. Oh, that's wild. Do they usually give the directive, I know that there's a lot of directives to harm somebody. I didn't realize they actually articulated it exactly how to do it.

Well, it was just pretty much get them, yeah, get them and usually like get them in that context means stomp them to death. So and of course, stomping someone to death is when you bring a bunch of steel garbage cans together and you got a bunch of broomsticks. It sounds really good. Yeah. That's a little reference to stomp. Yeah, the stomp is an hour and 45 minutes.

Yes. Then in 1995, Chug beat and tortured a record promoter named Mark Anthony Bell during a Christmas party at Chug's home. Bell was held captive in a room in Chug's house and was beat senseless by Chug's crew before being allegedly forced to drink Chug's piss from a champagne flute. Oh my. Now honestly, set the scene, right? It's music's playing, it's nice little party and stuff, Chug's in the back.

He's got a Santa hat on. They're all drinking eggnog. This is kind of true. They had it. Well, I'm certain they had like, you know, they had like liquor in it, but it was eggnog. I think you're kind of griswolding up the scene here a little bit. Kind of griswolding it up. There's a lot of griswold imagery in the story.

Okay. So he sees Mark Anthony Bell walks in, they're just like, we got to go, we're going to get him. He's going to bring us to Puffy. Which is Chug's main MO, right? Bring him to another location. And what did we learn on our podcast? Never go to a second location.

Never do it. He said, come, we're going to go talk with you and my boys. We're going to go talk up in the upstairs bedroom. They go in that bedroom. They tie him to a chair. They start wailing on him. Jesus. All of a sudden, Chug goes in the room.

And now this is according to Chug. After jail, what he said, he's like, yeah, it's like a lot of people say that we tortured Mark Anthony Bell. And actually, I mean, like, all we did was hit him a couple of times and make him drink a little pee. That's all we did. And so he went and he filled a champagne flute filled with his own urine, which is difficult. If anybody's ever been on a road trip and tried to fill a beer bottle with piss, like

in the scene from Dumber and Dumber, it's difficult to know the levels. It shows he's done this before. He's an expert at it. Oh, right. Yeah. So, and then they made him drink the pee, which is just like, that's very humiliating. I think we could call it torture. Yeah.

Oh, we can definitely call it torture. And the guy himself, he said that he did not drink pee. He tried to jump off the balcony. They did bring out a champagne flute full of piss. No matter what, everyone agrees that there was a champagne flute full of piss involved in here somewhere. But the guy, Mark Anthony Bell, said he tried jumping off the balcony, so he never drank the piss, but they did beat the fuck out of him.

Oh, right. How high up were they there? Third, second floor? Probably second or third floor. Yeah. And this whole disgusting incident happened because Shug believed that Bell knew who was responsible for the death of a close friend and associate of Shug's, a bodyguard named Jake Robles.

Three months before this incident, the death row and big boy crews had run into each other at the Platinum Club in Atlanta. Before the fight was over and done with, Jake Robles was shot and killed. Now, virtually nothing is known to us as to who the actual culprit was if it was an order that was given to attack death row staff or if the whole thing was just a simple confrontation that got out of hand, as these things sometimes do. Oh, right. But one thing was for sure, the East Coast, West Coast rivalry now officially had a body

count. Also, if you want to count the fact that Shug gave EZE aides slipping in by hypodermic needle when they had that meeting trying to figure out all the shit with fucking ruthless records. Did that happen? Yeah. It's rumored that Shug and I had brought a hypodermic. It's not true.

Definitely not. That's a rumor, though. No, man. I will say this about this whole story. If you want to get deep into the conspiracy theory surrounding the death of Biggie and Tupac, it is deep and it is long, and everyone's done it, and everyone's still alive. It's amazing how deep conspiracy theories can go, you know, because it's all people making things up, and then you can just do that forever.

You can like make, that's the thing with conspiracy theories, there's a lot of data. Very little truth. It's interesting, though. Well, the thing is about the Jake Robles murder, Shug Knight fully believed that the person who gave the order to shoot was Sean Puffy Cone. Okay. Now, as we said at the top of the last episode, the Biggie and Tupac murders are essentially solved cold cases, meaning investigators know who did it and know who was responsible,

but were never able to gather enough evidence to prove it in a court of law. It's so interesting, though, because wasn't Puffy's brand like the nice one? Wasn't he considered like the nicer one? Now it is, now it is. I don't remember, I just remember him with Mace and who became a preacher, like I never remembered Puffy being tough, but. Because this was the first chapter of the rap that got to us, okay? Right.

Where it's like when Puffy, when we really absorbed Puffy, it was him doing the shoulder dance and like the white silver chute and the mirror tunnel and all that shit, but before that he was hardcore. Okay. And especially because of Shug, he had to present himself as even more hardcore than he wanted to because Shug actually meant violence. Right, right, right. And he was surrounding himself with Cruz because he came from the MOB.

Like he wasn't actually fully involved with the Bloods and Puffy had to figure out how to compete and also for marketing's sake, he had to appear very, very tough. Right. Well, I mean he definitely gives more depth to his character because you know now he's like, I'm sure he's had some meetings where it's like, you think I'm the guy from the reality show. Let me tell you a little story about Puff Daddy and then I'm sure it gets very, very horrified at that point.

Now the thing is about this case is the reason why there was never enough evidence to prove it in the court of law because of course when it comes to criminal cases, there's what you know and what you can prove. Right. And those are two very different things. Yes. And the reason why it never came to court was because there was no follow through. And that's also why the vast majority of people still believe that these murders are

such a huge mystery. Right. And because of that, we've got three stories to tell, the murders, the investigation and why that follow through didn't happen. All right. Now the investigation that cracked things wide open was not the original. The original Biggie investigation was headed up partly by a decorated officer named Russell Poole who while being a fantastic cop and very good at his job, he unfortunately lost

the plot when he became convinced the murder was a wide reaching conspiracy involving the LAPD. Oh, OK. It's kind of like when Philip K. Dick went insane, when he went insane because of his brain tumor. He had an aneurysm and he went nuts. He went insane in the coolest way possible because he was a brilliant sci-fi writer. And he went down to the depths of his own mind and he was using his brilliant fictional

brain to try to figure out what was happening to him in reality. And it created the vowel trilogy, which is obvious for me, the peak of sci-fi. I fucking love it. Russell Poole. I'm so happy you somehow got to Philip K. Dick in our Biggie and Tupac series. Congratulations. I have to. That is a nerd.

That is. That is. Wow. I have to bring it back to a way. I can understand. But Russell Poole is like that. He was such a good cop. Right.

He began to like investigate himself. It was like he eventually, at some point, Russell Poole was like, maybe I did this. Wow. I have to investigate this to see maybe if I did it. And he went all the way down like the picture of Charlie Day from Always Sunny with the fucking yarn lines. Yeah, right. The whole conspiracy thing.

That was him. Interesting. And Labyrinth is a good, his book that he wrote is good to see what it's like to see a man incept himself into police conspiracy. But it's also throws you off the track of what really happened with Biggie and Tupac. I didn't realize, so a actual police officer was the first one to come up with this conspiracy that the LAPD was involved. That's pretty fascinating.

Unfortunately, it's someone who looks like Henry, who is just like constantly outside the police department smoking near the bushes, and everyone's like, we can see the smoke billowing out of the bushes, Mr. Zabrowski. Can you please just leave? No, I can't see me. That's what smoke is there for us. We'll only see the smoke. Sorry, sir, you have to leave.

Yeah, but that's how bad the LAPD was at the time. I see. Was that they were so bad that cops within it were trying to frame the police department crimes just to stop them. Yeah, this is, I mean, now this is just after the Rodney King riots and all that kind of stuff, right? About six, seven years after that. Yeah, we're talking around, yeah, we're talking maybe five years after that.

But when the story really started coming up, that was like late 90s. And actually, like Paul, like, you know, like RIP, he just died, I think, last year. He later came up with a different theory, but his original theory is partly and poorly laid out in the aforementioned Nick Broomefield documentary, Biggie and Tupac. And you know, the theory is, like all conspiracy thought, complicated beyond comprehension. Long story short, Paul followed the evidence to a point where a theory involving the LAP could be formulated, but once he got that theory stuck in his head, he tried to force the evidence to fit his narrative, ignoring anything contradictory.

It's a great story, though. It's a great story. And why he did it, and the coincidences in it are like, holy shit, you can't make this stuff up. But he was, as he was, but it was wrong. It was still just coincidences, which is obviously the thing about all conspiracy theories that there's just enough to keep you going when it's good. Yeah, so instead of like following the evidence and going where the evidence took him, he

wanted to take the evidence where he wanted to put it. Exactly, yeah. And you know, I've heard a cop say, like, there's no coincidence in homicide. Like, well, I don't know. The one story that really made me rethink the concept of coincidence is Mark David Chapman. When you look at how many coincidences came up in that story, it really does make you a believer. It's like, well, sometimes the world just creates roadblocks.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the reason why, like Henry said, the reason why Paul followed the stories, is the story is so compelling. According to that, Biggie Smalls was murdered under the order of Shugnight in retaliation for Tupac's death by an LAPD officer named David Mack in conjunction with a nation of Islam member named Amir Muhammad. Okay. Now, David Mack is a crazy character to begin with anyway, because that was a cop that was

robbing fucking banks. It was like that whole rampart story is nuts. Yeah. He was robbing banks as a cop? He was robbing banks as a cop. He did, what was one of his highest, like 750,000? He was serious. Because he used his cop smarts to realize when to go pick up the money from the bank,

because you have to wait because the bank purges cash after a period of time. So you have to wait till it's at its peak and go get it like, like, like a butt. Interesting. Interesting. So he used his cop sense, he used his cop smarts, very similar to Pig Sense. When we talk about Pig Sense, who was the guy who had Pig Sense? Robert Pickton. Robert Pickton.

Pig Sense and his cops. You have the memory of a goldfish. Thank you. Is it the booze? No. I swim a lot. No, I don't know. No, no.

We cover so much. We cover so much. And honestly, goldfish, they have a three-second memory, but that's all they need. Theoretically, it keeps them happy and alive in those little fish tanks. So you're excited for dementia? Because that's when you'll finally be released. You'll finally be at ease. Make them up.

And furthermore, David Mack was a cop that was a part of a broader contingent, according to Poole, within the LAPD that was on Shugknight's payroll. So according to Russell Poole, there were a ton of cops that were on the death row payroll. And all of this was coming on the heels of a major LAPD corruption case involving the aforementioned anti-gain crash unit that scandal was known as Rampart. And add to that just the general distrust and disdain people have for the LAPD due to very public incidents that usually involved race in some way or another. And suddenly, Poole's theory started to sound pretty reasonable.

But it didn't sound reasonable to the LAPD. Well naturally, they're the ones you were accused of doing the crime. That's the least stunning piece of information I have ever heard in my entire life. They were doubtful? They were skeptical about his theory? And so Poole was taken off the case. And this actually served the opposite purpose for the LAPD, because this attracted more attention to Poole's theory, and it particularly attracted the attention of Biggie's mother,

Valletta Wallace. So this is your obstruction of justice case against the LAPD on Mr. Poole there? And so Valletta Wallace used the evidence Poole had gathered to bring a wrongful death suit against the LAPD suing the department for Biggie's estimated lifetime earnings, which sat at a cool half a billion dollars. Woo! Holy hell! Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Wow! And the LAPD did not want to fucking, they did not want to give up half a billion dollars, because that's a lot of donkey Kong arcade games, which is what they have in a lot of the lunchrooms in police departments. Because that's what I remember from my father's police department, that's where I would go. They do take your son to work day, and he just put me in the lunchroom, and I'd play donkey Kong all day. Wow, well what a life lesson that is.

Yep. Well, Neil, let's just say, as soon as this half a billion dollar lawsuit came through, the LAPD started paying attention. Can you, I don't know if I like this idea of police officers taking their son to work day. Like, just imagine being a perp getting cuffed and then just a little seven year old Henry Zabrowski be like, what'd you do? Was it murder?

No, I'm not. You ever think that maybe when you go to jail that someone's going to poke you in the back stairs? God damn it, can we just get this over with? No, it's true, I got to shoot a gun. You did? Yeah, we went to the range. My dad had to qualify.

It was like, it worked for the same time. My dad had to go, he had to qualify because you have to qualify to get your license every year. He had to qualify, and he took me to the range and I shot a gun, and then we went to my favorite comic book store, The Web. I still remember that as being the favorite day of my childhood. That makes sense. Yeah.

Well, after the LAPD started paying attention, that's when they assigned Detective Greg Cading to solve the case. Okay. Now, I misspoke a little bit last episode. Operation Wrap It Up was actually a sub file of the overall operation to catch Biggie's murder, which was Operation Transparency. Okay, all very cool names, I have to say. So far, Rampart?

Is that so, it's Operation Rampart? No, Rampart was the name of the police station that was caught up in the scandal. Oh, okay. Yeah, and later made into a movie starring Woody Harrelson, which resulted in a weird Reddit thing. Okay. All right. Yeah, very good.

Now, as far as the public knew, Operation Transparency had one job, solved the murder of Biggie Smalls. But really, the LAPD cared about something different altogether. Uh-oh. Cover our asses. That's not Transparency at all. Operation overalls. But in the process of trying to solve the Biggie Smalls murder, Cading ended up blowing the lid off everything, revealing a tale of treachery, hubris, and above all, careless

disregard. Oh. Which is another thing too, man. Greg Cading was also such a good cop, but also kept him from being a cop anymore. Right. So he's investigating the LAPD, eventually quit, because they were like, this place sucks. Wow. All right.

Interesting. So yes, so he ended up not following through, huh? They didn't allow him to? We'll have to see how the story unfolds. Let's see how the story unfolds. Well, first, Cading had to debunk Poole's theory, which was actually fairly easy to do. Okay.

Poole had relied heavily on uncorroborated statements from jail informants who were quickly discredited, half the evidence didn't match up, and the sinister nation of Islam member, Amir Muhammad, he was just a mortgage broker named Harry Billups, who just happened to be the accused LAPD cop's college roommate. Okay. It is very, very sad. Yeah. So Harry Billups, known as Amir Muhammad, went to go visit David Mack in jail.

And what happened was is that, so he went there and they were hanging out and it was fine, a normal visit. But at some point, Russell Poole is just going through context. And the thing about jailhouse confessions is that they'll say anything. Oh, yeah. Right. And so it was a guy's like, check it, check it. I got, I got news on the murder of Biggie Smalls and Russell Poole's like, tell me all

about it. I'm sorry. That's the Nick Ruhmfield voice. And so that's what I'll do. Tell me all about it. He's like, yeah, check it. The thing is, you got to get me a TV, man. You got to get me a TV.

He's like, okay, whatever you need. Some Slim Jims. Yeah. Some Slim Jims. Yeah. That'd be good too, man. Yeah. He's like, whatever it takes to crack the unsolved narrative.

And then in truth, he said, yeah, I know the shooter. His name is, I think it's Amon, Amir, Mahan. And he just named like three things that sort of sounded like Amir. And then when he came up showing that he visited David Mack, they're like, this is the guy. And then it ruined Harry Billop's life. Yeah. Who was just, wasn't he a mortgage broker? He was a mortgage broker.

Oh my God. He might as well have just talked to you when it was bring your son to work day. Good Lord. I did the crime. That is unbelievably sad though, that this random dude just got pulled into this thing, unbeknownst to him entirely? Entirely. It was all based on like he was just going to see his old buddy.

And after that, like, pulled just ran with it. And yeah, Billop's did come out and say like, this whole thing has ruined my life completely. I think there was a lawsuit involved. I hope he got some money. Yeah. I think he got a little bit. Okay. So even though very little of the original murder investigation was actually useful to

reading, the task force was not starting from square one. They also had access to a federal racketeering investigation against death row, which had ran from 1995 to 2001. Wow. Unfortunately though, like hundreds of other FBI cases, the death row case was scuttled following the events of September 11th and was completely abandoned. Hold on Marcus. You're telling me it was scuttled?

Yeah. It was scuttled like a bunch of crabs. Wow. That's what crabs do. That's what a crab movement in a group is called a scuddle. I didn't realize that. I learned something new every day that I will quickly forget. So 9-11 actually in a strange way, obviously that was the biggest crime in the country.

So that actually kind of saved their ass? It saved hundreds of people's asses because when all of these investigations that were going on in the FBI as soon as 9-11 happened, all of their resources got reallocated. So all of these criminals who have been sweating bullets, we're very thankful for September 11th. Oh, good thing to remember about this investigation is that most of this is happening 10 years after the fact, like 9-10 years. So also remember they're piecing all of this shit together afterwards where it's like

every single time Greg Kading's pulling out another file because it's very interesting because of the implications of Russell Pool, which you'll find out at MurderRap, all of the files that were put together as the investigation the Russell Pool did, but like four huge binders of information about these were given to the internal affairs. Internal affairs held onto this shit and Greg Kading had to wait for them to photocopy this shit. So it took months for him pulling out this stuff bit after bit and he gets the next file and he's like, holy shit, they've been investigating them for racketeering for six years?

Right. They didn't know. Could have used that information before. Actually, I don't think it was for, I think it was 72 gigantic binders, like they showed a picture of all of the boxes that these things were in and it was just a gigantic, gigantic process. Okay. Now because of the slow pace of the investigation, because he was only getting a few things at

a time, it took Kading and his team two years to get their first real break and that break came in the form of a man named Dwayne Keith Davis, aka Keefy Dee, described by one informant as the president of the Southside Crips. Now Keefy was actually a major player, being one of the people responsible for taking the Crips from a Los Angeles local to the nationwide criminal enterprise with chapters in every American city that it eventually became. But the reason why Kading wanted to talk to Keefy was because Keefy was one of only a handful of people that were present at both the murder of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls.

Keefy is the Vince McMahon of the Crips. He brought it full nationwide. Yes. Yeah, definitely took over a lot of areas, perhaps angered a lot of people while doing it. Vince McMahon, by the way, he is muscle milk come to life. That is what that man is. He is a lot of veins and vocal cords.

That's really all he is. I see for Keefy Dee, the first thing I thought was a Suzanne Summers. What do you mean? It was like the Crips were his thymaster and he gave it all over the world. Okay. Again, I'm bringing it to things I understand. Yeah. I was thinking about the thymaster for some reason.

That thymaster, my mother had one. It was very difficult. Oh, yeah. And I was trying to do it as a child, a very overweight child, and it sprung up and it hit me in the face. That was horrible. I never did that again. So all Keating needed was a way to make Keefy talk and he did that with a gallon of liquid

PCP. Get out of here. A lot of people will talk if you do a gallon of PCP. Wait, is this, what do you mean, this guy is a police officer with the LAPD, right? Well, working in conjunction with the DEA, Keating used an informant named Dirt Rock to set up a fake buy. The deal went off without a hitch, but a few days later, Keating, flanked with DEA agents, showed up at Keefy's house, and laid out all the evidence they had on the deal, which

was enough to put away Keefy for life. I have a question for our listeners. Can someone tell me, if you have casually used PCP, why, why, and what does it do that's good? I want to know what's good because they talk about a lot of these guys made their living selling PCP and weed, and it's like, I don't really understand the desire to do just PCP on its own, but I don't know if it's like, if you do it at low levels, is it fun? I don't know, I dated a girl for a long time who had like a two-year PCP habit before we

got together, and she was never really able to fully explain to me, like I think she was just like, it stars. Yeah, it doesn't sound very fun, I watched one thing on the drug wars on maybe National Geographic, and they dip it in the cigarettes, that's usually how you take it, and no one looked to be like super thrilled, they were naked like pretty much immediately, but they didn't look to be happy. It's called getting wet. Yeah.

Yeah, getting wet. Yeah, that's what this was for. Oh, okay. KeefeD was buying the gallon of liquid PCP, it was like $10,500. Yeah, that's a hell of a lot of PCP. It was enough to put them away forever. Wow. But then, they told Keefe, there was actually a way out of all this, and when Keefe asked

how, Cating said, let me put it this way, we're homicide investigators. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. Am I just extremely high on PCP, or are you winking like a budge? Wink, wink, wink. I'm saying wink, but I physically can't wink because I have to keep my eyes open all the time because I'm investigating the murder of Biggie Small. I should have just said that. Yeah, do it.

Well actually, they left without telling him what murder it was they were actually investigating. They just left it hanging like, we're homicide investigators, and then they left. But so, I'm just gonna, so, but there was just a gallon of PCP that the LAPD just kind of let loose. The DEA. But they just let that go. They got it back. They got it back.

They got it back in small kind of arrest. Come on, come on, buddy. Yeah, that's where people were like, there's no way the CIA introduced crack. This happens all the time. In this case, it was a gallon of PCP that they were just like, that's collateral damage in the murder of Biggie and Tupac. Yeah, you could definitely see like Keefe D and Kating outside talking, and then his other buddy like, swamp thing, his friend like, with the big barrel of it, just been

like, so I'm just gonna take this, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna hide this. Well, less than an hour after Kating left, Keefe's attorney called and said Keefe was ready to talk. And talk a lot, because once again, he's not, no, I know, he's not high up PCP. He's selling the stuff. Yeah, yeah, he's selling the stuff. But Kating let Keefe sweat for like a month. Like they didn't come back for a while because they wanted him to wonder like, which murder

is it that they want to talk about? Sure, yeah. Like what is this? What's going to be going on? You know, you have an interest in life when you're like, oh, I know their homicide detective is, then you have to do a mental Rolodex of everyone. Which one? Which murder could it be?

Have I murdered? Like when you have to sit there and be like, I don't, I don't even know if I've murdered. Oh man. Internal wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. Then at their next meeting, Kating revealed the focus of his investigation, Biggie Smalls. To this, Keefe said he didn't know anything about that murder, but what he did know in Keefe's words was gonna blow Kating's fucking mind. All right.

When Kating asked him to elaborate, Keefe said, that one wasn't us. And he was like, what? You're fucking with me, dude. I just picture him giving back the gallon of PCP to Kating, just similar to the naked gun when he's bribing the guy and the guy is bribing him back and forth. And so, in trying to solve the Biggie case, Kating accidentally found a new lead in the long-sense abandoned case of Tupac Shakur. Because that's the thing, the Las Vegas PD had done little to no investigative work on

Tupac's murder. Which is just crazy to me. This is like such a, it was such a huge case and for them to just be like, we're sitting this one out. Dude, it is the thing that we've seen again and again. It is a constant, their thought process is that these guys were gonna kill each other anyway. What do we give a shit?

Yeah. They were like gangster on gangster crimes, so they're like doing their job for them. So these men all died, who had families and had a life and were just fucking artists. These guys were just artists. They were dabbling in the life, but they were just guys making music and they got murdered and no one gave a shit. Yeah, we can't lose sight of that. These are artists here.

And the Las Vegas Police Department, they blamed their lack of investigation on the fact that key witnesses were uncooperative. Because they were, Shug Knight even said like just a few years ago, he said, yeah, I'm not paid to solve homicides, so I'm not talking to them. Street code, you do not snitch. Yeah, I know that. But if you're a cop and you're investigating a murder and then everyone's like, not gonna talk like they're just like, okie dokie, I'm just gonna go on.

And it's like, aren't you supposed to like do something to get them to talk or find a way? Well, the truth of the matter is that it seemed like the Las Vegas Police Department never really gave a fuck about solving the murder in the first place. Oh, right. They were dating shirts, so gave a fuck, so he listened to Keefie's story. Now, this wasn't the first time Keefie had spoken to investigators. Years before, Keefie had claimed that he didn't have anything to do with Tupac's murder.

He even pushed like a different theory altogether. He pushed another cop theory, but it was a slightly different one than Paul put forth. Keefie had suggested that while it was still Compton Police that pulled the trigger on Tupac, it was actually Shug who ordered the hit. This is the dumbest theory of all of that. This is the dumbest one? I thought that Shug- This is the dumbest theory.

Because a part of street code is, right, is that not only they don't snitch, but they'll just lie. They'll just say shit just to throw you off, which makes everything very, very difficult to piece together. But the idea was, is that Shug was afraid that Tupac was gonna leave, because the truth is that Tupac was trying to formulate his own little company, but the whole point was that him and his managers and his lawyers, they were gonna try to extricate him from the death row contract, because it was kind of like a weird little memo, friendly style

with Shug, kind of the way that they worked it out with Easy and Dr. Dre, where they figured out how Easy will always get paid no matter what. So essentially, you kind of massage it, so we'll separate, but the money will still go back to you. So what they said is that Shug found out and he flipped out, so he ordered a hit against Tupac that would happen while Shug was in the car, and that he would get men that were just trained enough that they could shoot Tupac while driving past without hitting him. Well, you know, he's a big guy, he wears a lot of red, you know where not to shoot?

I don't know, I suppose so, but yeah, this is, I mean, this is common sense tells you there are such easier ways for, if Shug was gonna actually order a hit on Tupac, there are so much simpler ways than to have guys fire 13 shots into a car that you're sitting at. If you move, though, how could, why would I order the hit if I'm in the car? That's genius! You get shot! You get shot!

But that's a part of what happened, so, but I will say, I watched a very revealing documentary that was released a couple months ago called Who Shot Biggie and Tupac with Ice T and Soledad O'Brien, and they shot a bunch of mannequins, because the whole point was to show how stupid the theory was, so they had a marksman shoot bad, because they talked about how like, well, obviously you'd have to be, like, the first thing he did was like, you know, any angle that you hold your Glock, and the guy was like trying to shoot like a gangster, like doing the sideways thing, you shoot at him, shoot at him, and then the whole time, like, you know, it's like, the one gangster dude who was one of part of Tupac's detail was

like, man, pulled up his Nina, and Soledad O'Brien was like, and what tail is a Nina? And guys, he's like, a Nina's a non, there's a gun, and then they slapped hands with each other, because that's all Ice T did for the most of the documentary was explain gang terms to Soledad O'Brien, and look grimly on. That's great. It's like what Key is doing in those commercials now, where he explains different kind of language to different generations. So even though Keefe had said that whole Shugknight hired the fucking cops to kill Tupac because

of disloyalty, even though he'd said all that years ago, he was now claiming that that whole story was bullshit, and what follows now is the story of the murder of Tupac with Keefe D filling in the blanks. So Keefe D came onto the bad boy record scene in the summer of 1995, when Biggie Smalls was touring as the headliner for the annual Summer Jam concert series. According to Keefe, Puffy hired a group of Crips to work security for the Anaheim and San Diego shows, paying them in free concert tickets. Kind of your Rolling Stone Hells Angels moment.

That's it. That's the whole thing, man. It's not like Puffy couldn't afford to hire real security, just like the Rolling Stones didn't have to hire the Hells Angels for security at Altamott in exchange for $500 worth of beer. It just made him feel cool. But there were a couple of things here. Number one, which I thought was really interesting, it was customary for East Coast rappers to have to pay a tribute to various LA gangs when you came into town.

So a lot of what people said, eventually people were trying to avoid even coming to LA because you have to pay 30 grand just to play, but basically a gang would be like, this is our security fee, it's 30 grand, we'll make sure everything's okay, we'll make sure people are safe. And he's just like, well, sir, I think we have our own security deal here. I don't know. Thank you so much for the offer. But he's like, well, how about just 30 grand so we don't fuck your shit up?

Right, right, right. And so that would happen. And then also, one thing Puffy did do is that because of the burgeoning conflict between him and Shug, he hired and spoke to a section of the Crips that were specifically against the MOB Piru crew. That was like a thing that caused a little bit of friction. It's hard to understand all the factions here. It reminds me of the WCW, NWO, the white NWO, and the red NWO, or the black and white NWO,

and the red and black NWO. And I was really disappointed when Sting went over to the black NWO, but then he actually went over to the red NWO, but he should have just stayed with WCW. Got you. Anyway. Don't understand. It's just, it is just as complicated because I don't understand. The gang, the gang hire key and structure is very, very intense.

And one day we'll do Buds and Crips because it's a fascinating story that has like, it goes back to the fucking 50s and 60s. Yeah. Now, just like hiring the Hell's Angels at Altamont resulted in the death of Fan Meredith Hunter, Puffy's hiring of the Crips would have consequences that were even more far reaching than that. See, the thing was, even though the Stones hired the Hell's Angels, they weren't claiming to be Hell's Angels.

Right, right. Like actually, they didn't even really know who the Hell's Angels really were. Yeah. I don't think like Mick Jagger's little bones rattling on a motorcycle, he would just fall apart. I'll tell you, this is worse than the carriage going down Dun Dun London. Like, yeah. Yeah, the Stones were confusing the American Hell's Angels with a bunch of British biker

enthusiast posers who just called themselves the Hell's Angels, who had worked security at a concert in Hyde Park in London the year before. Do your due diligence. Yeah. That is what this means. Research what you're getting yourself involved in. That's it. So they were used to drinking o' duels and then they switched over to a huge keg of what's

the worst ice house? Ice house. Yes. Ice house is brutal. Yeah. They didn't, the Rolling Stones did not know like how dangerous the Hell's Angels in America actually were. I mean, like Jefferson Airplane had used them for security wants, they said, oh, went off

without a hitch. Okay. But Altamont, and Altamont is also another one that we may do a story on or it's a very least like concert, concert disasters at large because it's a fascinating story. But still like the Rolling Stones, like they were just trying to be cool. They didn't really know who they were dealing with. Can we put Woodstock 99 and that great white fire in there? We will.

All right. Cool. Yeah. But Puffy, he knew exactly who he was hiring and he knew exactly what hiring these guys meant. Hiring them meant he was unofficially aligning himself with the gang, with the Crips. This is the making, this is the making the band Puff Daddy. Yeah.

Yes. It's really crazy. Yes. And this was done in response to something Shug Knight had said a couple of weeks earlier Shug Knight had very publicly called out Puffy at the 1995 Source Awards while accepting the award for best motion picture soundtrack for above the rim. Remember that? But when Shug went up to accept the award, he did so with someone on his mind, Tupac

Shakur. Because earlier that day, Shug had been in upstate New York visiting Tupac in prison. So Shug started his speech by pledging his support to Tupac. But remember, Tupac had been telling Shug from day one that Biggie and Puffy were behind the shooting at Quad City that it occurred the day before Tupac had been sentenced. That could be why Shug said this. And one other thing I'd like to say, any audience out there want to be an artist and want to stay a star, they don't want to have to worry about the executive producer trying

to be all in the video, all on a record, dance, and come to death row. That was a lot like when Robert De Niro had his bold stance against President Donald. That was, I remember that, that was like crazy, wasn't there a riot after that? Didn't that break out? No. No, that wasn't that. Well, people freaked out in the audience because people started going nuts. Man, Shug's so big.

He's so big. That was a huge, that made it all the way to Stevens Point, Wisconsin. That speech. And we're like, that's really interesting. That's really cool. And then again, I'm like, they're probably still friends. Admittedly, Shug and I was not wrong on this. I mean, Puffy did indeed insert himself into everything.

Every video. Annoyingly so. But Shug said this, not just in front of the entire hip hop community, but in New York City on Puffy's home turf. Which is also what got Tupac Shakur harassed in the first place by Haitian Jack because you're talking mess in the other guy's territory. You don't do that shit. Like Haitian Jack, who is still alive.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah. He's still alive. And he says he had nothing to do with it. But the guy who did it called him and said, I did this without your permission. And he was just like, no, no, why did you do this? So bad. All right.

Now, Shug hadn't threatened any violence here, but he had a way about him where he didn't really need to. Like, to put it simply, Shug had a reputation. And that reputation scared the everloving shit out of Puffy. See Death Row had long since allied themselves completely with the Bloods, despite Snoop Dogg's previous connection to the Crips. And the Bloods, specifically the Mob Piru, acted as Shug Knights enforcers. And that's a big reason why Puffy decided to hire the Crips to act as their personal

security at the Summer Jams California dates. If Shug Knight was a character on Pee Wee Herman's Playhouse, he would just be the refrigerator. And every time you open it up, he's like, I'm going to kill you. And then you have to shut it immediately. He was huge. He was like, no. Such a big, his shoulders are the big Anthony Mason of the New York Knicks RIP Anthony. He and Shug have the same size shoulders and they were the biggest, Anthony's were the

biggest I've ever seen in my life. I passed him on the street. Shug Knight was an NFL defensive end. Yeah. Huge. And with this, the East Coast, West Coast rivalry now had actual gang affiliations right in the middle of the bloodiest gang war this country had seen since Prohibition. Wow.

But these guys are playing with fire, of course. Right? Obviously they're playing with fire. But the connections are, remember when we say all these things and a lot of people will read these in books too and talk about them being really connected to these gangs. The gang connection is really nebulous. It's more like they invited them into their house like a vampire. They invited them in to being like, we're going to make you a part of our scene.

And promise when you have a bunch of people that are really truly criminals, these people are actually uncontrollable, you're just now letting chaos go. And these guys are going to mix how they're going to mix. And now you act like you think that you can control them, which is we're going to find out is the biggest problem of all. So would you say this is the biggest mistake, the actual aligning themselves with these very legitimate people? Did Shug know?

I mean, he had to know how serious these guys are, right? Like Shug? Shug was something completely like, because that's the things that Shug was, he was serious. Shug was, he was an actual, like he was a criminal. Like he knew exactly what he was doing. He had come up more in that world and he was good at it. Puffy on the other hand was not quite the same type of person. Like Puffy was, he was, I mean, because really, yeah, I mean, you say like, you know, Puffy

was the nicer one. He was on TL, he was on, what was it, TL, what's the name of it? He was on TRL with Carson Daly. Yeah, I mean, he co-hosted Regis and Kelly, like everyone's, he was, he was the guy that brought hip hop into the mainstream. Like he was the one that did, like- He was the nice one that the Midwest could digest, right? He was the one that, he had the smooth style, like it was, it wasn't any, it wasn't funky,

you know, it was very smooth. So Puffy was, he was really playing with fire and had no idea what the fuck he was doing. Or at least he thought he knew he did, but he did not. Right, right. Now, Puffy, after hiring the Cribs, he started flexing a little. Just before Biggie Show in Anaheim, just a couple of weeks after the Source Awards diss, Puffy allegedly told a roomful of Cribs that he'd give anything for the head of Shug Knight. He just starts throwing this shit out there.

Now it doesn't really seem like Puffy was really serious with this threat at that point. But then the Jake Robles murder happened in Atlanta, and Shug publicly blamed Robles' death on one of Puffy's bodyguards. Now Puffy completely denies having anything to do with the murder, even pointing out that he was standing right next to Shug Knight when it happened, because he was. So Puffy is just acting like Prince Naughty and Ham right now, just like, bring me his head, and but he's like, that's a very serious request, I think. It's way more similar to the Cousin Eddie moment from National Influenced Christmas Vacation,

where he used to would grab a nice little bowl, like, all right, like, it is, it is that. Oh my goodness. Well, it didn't matter whether or not Puffy had anything to do with the murder of Jake Robles. All that mattered was that Shug believed Puffy was behind it, and that murder was partly why Tupac released Hit Him Up on June 4th, 1996. Now up until that point, hip hop artists didn't really openly threaten each other with violence on diss tracks, and they certainly didn't threaten each other with murder.

Most of the time, like, it's like they'd be in an attack on the other person's cred, maybe a few jokes about their appearance, followed by a couple of homophobic insults, and that'd be the end of it, but Hit Him Up was different. It was violent, specific, and very, very personal. Before the beat even starts, Tupac just comes right out and says, That's why I fucked your bitch, you fat motherfucker. Whoa. Hate it.

I'm just, I'm just, Mr. Nets doesn't even rhyme. Sign up for a roast. This is not what I'm supposed to be involved in. I'm not prepared to any material, so. Yeah, roast mode. Yeah, it's just like, fuck, like, that, like, that was right up top. And that is, like, it's also very indicative of how huge Shug Knight was, like, everyone's just, like, must have been talking about Mr. Knight there, because it's only one, or

no, no, Biggie, rather, I'm sorry, that's indicative of how big, uh, Biggie was, yes. Yeah, and Tupac saying, I fucked your bitch, that was in reference to Biggie's wife, Faith Evans, who had collaborated with Tupac on a track the year before, and it only got more aggressive from there. Throughout the song, Tupac made it very clear that this was not just talk. Can I just, isn't the music video, can we, did we mention the music video, isn't it just a big guy pretending to be, uh, notorious Biggie, and they just beat him up throughout the entire video?

Well, he just kind of looks like a fool, because that was, that was pretty common in hip-hop videos as well. It's like, if you're talking shit about the guy, you usually hire a guy to look like the guy you're making fun of, and then you kind of chase him around, and it's, you know, and it's actually, most of the time, it's pretty goofy, like, they did that with, uh, I think, like, they had an easy E impersonator for the Dre Day video. Yeah, they got a little guy, they got a little guy to play easy E, and then they chased him around like Benny Hill.

Like, it's funny. It's like a silly little moment. Yeah. That's what they did with Bret Hart after the Montreal Screwjob on Monday Night Raw. That's right. They brought out a little person to beat Bret Hart. That's funny. Well, this was completely different.

This was not, this could not be taken in any way as light-hearted. Okay. Uh, it was aggressive. Now, throughout the song, Tupac made it very clear that this was not just talk. He even made sure to explicitly say this was not a rap battle. The plan is to kill you. And he called up Biggie, Puffy, and Bad Boy at large by name. Now, Violence and Gangster epilirics is not new.

I mean, it's a big part of it, but usually the violence had been broad and vague. It's more of like a generalized character building saying, with this though, Tupac was making specific threats. He even devoted the last minute and a half of the song to just talking, and the more he talked, the angrier he got, and eventually he landed on this. Which was seen as pretty aggressive. I think. I understand.

You know what I'll say? It's almost nice because him dying slow, he can say, like, goodbye to his family. Sure. There were a couple of last moments, you could throw out one last final rap to everyone, so it's nice actually. Yeah, if he was like the witch from the movie Thinner, where he was just like, he just cursed him, and it took about three months before he inevitably evaporated into the earth, but obviously that's not what happened.

Yeah, and that's only a small part of that ending rant, but this also begs a question. How serious was Tupac? How serious was Tupac? Was he really going to kill anyone? Was he really going to kill anyone? Whatever, was this just the next logical, lyrical evolution, and the game that these dudes were playing? That's too long of a question for me to repeat.

Tupac got real serious, and his whole crew, him and the Outlaws, were very, very serious. They were threatened violence quite a bit. They were all carrying Nenus. Everybody was ready to go, and to the point where Stoop Dog was afraid of him. The whole story where they took the plane over, and Stoop Dog had accidentally hung out with a bunch of East Coast guys, and Tupac found out, and he was furious, and so Stoop Dog had to hide under a blanket with a fork and knife that he was waiting for Tupac to come get him in his sleep.

I'm so happy that Snoop is still with us. His YouTube channel is absolutely hilarious. They'd taken it even further than that, because they were on a private jet from New York to LA, and they took Snoop Dog's security away from him. They're like, no, they're not going with you. You're going on this plane right now, you're coming with us. Oh my god. And yeah, he sat there just hiding with a knife and fork, just waiting for someone to

attack him. But you just really have to wonder, like, I also do think, I just picture Chris Christie during Bridgegate doing the exact same thing, just like Contra with a knife and fork. These are the only weapons I know how to use. Oh, so I feel maybe if I just hold the knife and fork, the meatball will show up. Gotcha, gotcha, Chris Christie. I mean, and there were other smaller, like, specific West Coast, over-the-East Coast diss tracks.

The Dog Pound did a video in which, and there was a small abided gunfire exchange there, like, the Dog Pound came to New York to shoot a video, and they were, and it was actually, it was called New York, New York, and it was supposed to be more of a tribute to New York. Like, it was respectful, but they were shooting a part of the video in Red Hook, in Brooklyn, and shots rang out. Someone took some shots at them, and so what they ended up doing is coming back to Los Angeles and doing it all on green screen, where the Dog Pound, including Snoop Dogg, were all gigantic Godzilla's, and they were, like, knocking down all the buildings in New York City.

That's a fun idea. That's fun. It's a great song, and it's a really, it's a really fun video, but, you know, hit them up took that further, like, that took it up to the next level. Yeah, I mean, at this point, they're just pretending like they're the monsters from the Rampage, the video games, and then, and then Tupac actually is just tail, it's going into great detail about how he's going to kill Biggie. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And because of that, you know, according to Keefy Dee, like, Puffy wasn't going to take the chance that Tupac was serious or not, or at least he didn't want to appear to take that chance. So besides just being the facilitator of the Crips Hire, Keefy Dee and Puffy were friends. They were introduced by a New York drug dealer named Zip, who owned a nightclub in Harlem, called the Zip Code. Cool. I love that.

It does sound like he's selling, hey, guys, name Zip, good to meet you, how's everybody doing today? This is my buddy, the Houndo! A little morning zoo style. After Keefy Dee was an L.A. guy, and just about every time Puffy went to L.A., the two met at lunch at Greenblatt's diner over near the Life Factory on Sunset Boulevard. But as the years went by, their conversations became more and more dominated by the East Coast, West Coast rivalry.

And after Hit Him Up was released, complete with the music video to make sure it got attention, the conversation got serious. And Keefy Dee said that Puffy explicitly offered him a million dollars to kill Shognite and Tupac Shakur. Is he Dr. Evil? Yes. A million dollars. Oh, I miss it.

I miss Verben Troyer. Oh, man. R.I.P. But so tiny. But it's, Keefy Dee had to keep a straight face because they were talking about how he's like, when he's offering it, they're sitting and having this serious like, we got to kill him. I'll give you a million dollars to kill Shognite and Tupac Shakur.

And he's like, I would have done it for like 50 grand. And he's just like, and he's just like holding like, waiting to see what if he follows up and he's like, okay, I'll take a million dollars. Jeez. This is crazy. Now happening right outside the Laugh Factory. A place of joy and no sadness at all because it's a laugh factory. Yeah.

Laugh Factory. The laughs are pressed every five seconds by a man who's paid 45 cents an hour. Now, there's speculation as to whether Puffy was serious here. Now, it could have just been more provado as in Puffy needed to look tough in front of his actual criminal friends and didn't actually expect Keefy Dee to kill Tupac and Shognite. I mean, they've been talking about it now. How long has this conversation been going on?

This conversation has been going on for a while, but it didn't really get, I mean, it's going on maybe three, two, three years. At some point, don't you just have to stop and be like, we're just joking, right? Like you got to bring it back to like, okay, but we're not being serious here. There were guys that were trying to say that to him. They were like, what you'll find out too is that in this is that there are a lot of guys that were like, this is just, you guys are understanding, you guys are just kind of messing with this thing, but you're not real gangsters.

But they were far away from them. The people that were their direct crew, like the outlaws made Tupac feel like he was fucking invincible. And Puff surrounding himself with these Crips also was making him like really, like they were playing a part and it went too far. They were just sitting there and they got really good to sit and have like mafia conversations or at the fucking deli. Like it's a Scorsese movie and it's not, it's not, but none of those not feasible.

They never end well. No. This is the most sad ending of maybe any movie of all time. Whether Puffy was serious or not, Keefeede took him seriously. And so the word was out, kill Tupac and Shug, make a million dollars. And here is where Tupac and Puffy were about to discover that while they may have been having a great time playing gangster, the guys they were surrounding themselves with were taking it very, very seriously.

And that's where we'll pick up next time. Man it's just so sad because I want to see Biggie now. I want to see him like talking about the new chicken shell taco at Taco Bell. He would have died. I want to see him promoting like a great restaurants. Like who knows what he would have been doing. He would have been the colonel. Yeah.

He would just be like, oh my God. He was not, and even when he died, he was only, see I remember these dudes, the one thing that we always forget when talking about these stories, these guys were 24 and 25 years old. Yep. That's it. They only seemed old to us because we were 14. Yeah.

And I was like, 10 years difference. Oh, yeah. They were young. It's just so sad. Biggie Smalls was 24 years old. Tupac Shakur was 25 years old. These guys were so young. They were fucking kids.

They didn't know what they were doing. They weren't paying attention. I'm just saying, it's sad. I mean, don't get me wrong, like I just, I hope nobody is thinking that we're like blaming these guys for their deaths or saying that it was, or anything like that, we're absolutely not doing that. No. What we're saying is like, these, pay attention, like you got to pay attention to what's going

on around you. Be careful. We did this last episode, you have to be careful who you pretend to be. Because you get exactly what you ask for in this life. This shit shows up. If you want to dab all in this kind of energy, you're going to have to pay for it eventually. Just how, this is how it is, like no one gets away scot-free unless you're Haitian Jack.

And you move to the Dominican Republic and he seems to be fine. He's doing, he's doing really good. But man, oh man, I'm just glad that Tupac's still alive for all of this shit. That's a good point. And you know, we always, as we've said before, you know, surround yourself with good people. But if you are doing stuff wrong, you can always change too. It's never too late to change bad habits and just because this, they should just be alive. But any, all right.

Well, very interesting. You know what? There's a lot to this story. I'm just going to say that. There is a lot, there's a lot to impact. There's quite a bit. There's a lot more part of it. Yeah.

So I hope you guys enjoy our conclusion because we've solved it. We solved it by reading the book of the guy who solved it. Right, right, right. Also, but again, remember, people who did the outlaw, like bought the book that we, the last book, Murder Wrap is also a great book by Greg Caden, but it's very complicated. Yeah. Murder Wrap is great. And the documentary based on Murder Wrap is also really great.

But yes, Murder Wrap is very complicated. And we might get into some of the complicated, like how he really put this case together. Because while Poole's theory is complicated in its players, Caden's theory is very simple in its players, but it is very complicated as to how he got the case to where it needed to be. Because it's very complicated police work. But if you're interested in like police work and like police procedure, like Murder Wrap is absolutely a great way to go.

Greg Caden's a good writer too. Awesome. You don't always get that with these books. Like sometimes these guys are not super. Former detectives aren't always great writers. Former detectives don't always make the best authors, but sometimes they're naturals. Sometimes they're great. And Greg Caden's one of those guys.

So yeah, definitely support Greg Caden and support, you know, support everyone. I want to give a special shout out and a thank you to Daniela Panetta. She mentions us, she mentions us in her Hollywood Reporter episode or article. She's in the Jurassic World, the Fallen Kingdom. Oh, support our friend there. She was very kind. She said she's going to give a big chunk of her check to our Patreon, which is like unbelievably sweet.

So thank you for the shout out. That was really nice. So wait a second. I want to give one shout out to Greg Russian, who bought me a bull whip. Oh my God. That I now have. This is the last thing you need. Can I do an anti shout out?

Mr. Russian, do you have any idea what you've done? You do not need a cattle whip. I'm invincible now. I can wear it as a belt. I can wear it. I can go to the airport with it. And then if anybody calls any mess, if anybody calls the fucking mess, there's nobody that is not too real to not be whipped.

That is what I will do, man. I provide a whip. All right. I do wish we lived in a place where the bull whip was the only weapon that existed because then fights and duels would be ended in a much, well, it was still violent and it would still hurt. Still violent. Well, it's likely to live.

There'd be a lot more stranglings. The other would be that. You can't do a drive-by strangling. That's not right. And a drive-by whipping is just kind of fun. Ow! Ow, ow, ow! There'd be a lot less eyes, that's for certain, because you'll pop your eye out on one of

these for a second. And I had it for about 15 minutes and I almost whipped Jackie across the face with it, but it's fun as shit. You guys, it makes me so much more uncontrollable. Henry, I will tell you from experience, be careful. You can hurt yourself very badly with that thing. Woo! It's not the way that he's handling it and violently swinging it around like he knows

what he's doing. No damage will come to Henry whatsoever. Tune in next month for I Patch Henry Zabrowski. You've got to shoot your eye out, kid. All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening. We love you. Thanks for giving to our Patreon.

Of course. Our tour dates are out there now. So check those out. We can't wait to see everyone. What do we got? We got Phoenix coming up. Yeah. Philly.

Philly, Boston, San Diego. And also to clear up like a little bit of confusion as far as like the VIP tickets go on Ticketmaster, whoever it is, did a terrible job of actually telling you what you get with that for the VIP thing. It's pretty much, you know, we're starting to do much bigger venues now. So, you know, everybody can see us and for those bigger venues, like we just don't have time to meet everybody. But with the VIP meet and greet thing, you also get a limited edition tour poster signed

by us. I love these posters. I'm getting it framed. Because this is the Nothing but Trouble Tour 2018. And so we're going to be, yeah, signed posters and you also get a lanyard. Who doesn't love a lanyard? Lanyards are really important because you can collect them and they're fun and they make you feel like you can always walk into a crime scene anytime you want.

I can definitely tell you the son of a detective because you love a lanyard. You love to just flash lanyards and you're like, oh, I've never seen someone more confident when a lanyard goes around their neck. But we're trying this VIP thing to like, it's obviously, it's a change for us too. We're trying it. So like, honestly, to tell us what you think about it, like, come and like, come and meet us and we're going to hang out, you know, we're trying something because we're essentially we're, we're building to essentially we're using this tour to create money to create

a bigger project for ourselves. Because what we like here and the one thing about last podcast and left the way it's always been is that we don't have any fucking corporate overlords. They hate us. It's just us. Yeah. It's the three of us. We now have a company.

We're like, we're paying other people's living wages. It's a thing that it's thing that's happening and a part of what we'd like to do is make sure like if we want to do a project, we can fund it ourselves. So we don't have to compromise or talk to anybody about what we're what we're making. And I think that's important. There's so many fucking middlemen now out there making like making money off of our you know what I would say we are. We are the Green Bay Packers of podcasts.

How does that? Because they're owned by the fans. Everyone has steak in the Green Bay Packers and they're all shareholders. So that's what we are as well. But honestly, thank you guys for for fucking going on this journey with us on honestly. This is one of those. We're still I'm still always in shock about this and I think I'm not going to say it doesn't have to do with rituals I did back in the day when I was really involved in chaos magic

and now I don't do it as much because of how much chaos it causes in my life. You are really going to a dark place here at the end of this money. Yeah. No, it's a good place. Okay. It's a good place. Both of us had to put that down. Yeah.

Because you guys were doing things that were disgusting with the paper and then the eating and then all that stuff. But we're not going to get into all we don't have to re litigate chaos magic. No we really we really don't. But yeah we we both both had to put that put that put that to bed for a little while. Okay. Well thank you all so much. So we're excited to see you.

You can find all of us on the social media I've deactivated my Twitter if there's any confusion because it was getting so toxic. I'm just trying to go without for a little while and see how they're I'm a brave I'm a brave warrior in the muck. You could find me on Twitter at Henry loves you and Matt Marcus Parks and the I think it's almost more brave to break out of the system though sometimes to or you can do it like me. You can have it and just ignore it and every once in a while go post something if you feel

like it. You can also do it that way. It does work like that. And you can follow us on Instagram at Dr. Fantasi at Marcus Parks had been kissled the number one where Kissel has been very active. He's been doing a lot of videotape and it's really nice. You could see chunks of his life because I don't see your life as much anymore. So it's nice to see.

I want to give a shout out to the urban pioneers. Urban pioneers. Yeah. They are a great band. Marcus is related to the the lead Fiddlest. Yeah. Fiddlest. Fiddle player.

Fiddle player. Yeah. Fiddlest. What's that? That's a funny word. Yeah. But they are on a tour right now all across America. I think they're they are they are old school so they're just they're just driving all around

so if you get a chance check out the urban pioneers. I have not storied them on my Instagram. They were like they deserve huge crowds and they really do. Yeah. Check them out. Yup. Liz is my cousin. Just go you can follow him on Instagram at Urban Pioneers and yeah listen to their music

on Spotify and you know they do something like 250 dates a year. Yeah, they'll they'll be out there, but they're on a tour right now. I think they're going down Currently going down the east coast and then coming back over to Texas. Yeah, but yes Please please check them out and yeah, go listen to them. They're fucking great I'll write everyone and also follow last podcast left and all of the bullshit's at LP on the left There it is. Hail yourselves, everyone. Hail Satan Helgeen Maghustalations

Hail me Help a boy feel strong. No fragile. Oh Oh, it's a long catchphrase help a boy feel strong not fragile help a boy feel strong not fragile all right