Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 423: Arthur Shawcross Part I - Welcome to Watertown

Episode Date: September 12, 2020

It's Heavy Hitter time yet again. On the first episode of this two-part series, we explore the grim origins of brutal serial killer Arthur Shawcross, from his incestuous childhood to his time in 'Nam to his inexplicably numerous marriages. Then we detail the first few grisly deaths Arthur committed, which would prove only to be a warmup to unbelievable mayhem.Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0

There's no place to escape to. This is the last time on the left That's when the cannibalism started You know There's a lot of people that are I've heard the term corny being tossed around a lot I think corny can be funny sometimes. No, not corny corny corny Quarantine horny. Oh my goodness Corny we're formed whores just wrote a song about our friends or reformed great band very funny They are really they are great

They wrote a song about the idea of you know, we're in quarantine people miss human touch sure people are Randy for it, right? And they want to and corn nuts Yes, but this episode is a really good cure for that Really trying to lower the horniness levels of this country. Hey, someone's got to someone has to take three Stallions like us Well, I will ride the horse that is me into the land of no erections because there is nothing less sexy in the story we're about to tell about our Arthur Shaw Every way in every fucking way. Oh now. I'm just thinking about us on on three

Stallions driving through a field of limp dicks. Isn't that exciting as they blow in the wind like in gladiator Kind of like rolling my hands through it and just knowing that that was where my wife was burned alive in this field of Everybody welcome to the last podcast on the left. I am bed with Henry and Marcus as well Yes, as Henry said today's episode is going to be I think it's safe to say a disgusting disturbing episode We haven't had a gold star episode in a while Perhaps it won't be in this one But at the very least in part two of who we're going to cover today, although looking at Henry's face It looks like stars might be handed out today as well

The only way I would describe that if we want to say how many gold stars are in this series I'd say that they would if you brought them into a pizza place you'd get a free pizza Oh, not bad, and you don't even have to read any books. You just have to listen So today's topic we have had a lot of people requesting him don't know why man's very hideous in every way Arthur Shawcross Arthur Shawcross aka the Genesee River Killer was an American serial killer who murdered 11 women mostly sex workers and two children in upstate New York between 1972 and 1990 and two separate murder sprees this story takes place in which I

I think is interesting. You say upstate New York, which I think is kind. Let's say it's fucking awful, Rochester They got the Rochester wings they do but true crime writers They really like to throw the term red light district around like I think very freely There was a red light in Rochester Absolutely, and it was in Arthur Shawcross's bathroom. So it made his shit orange so he could look at it and think it's Play-Doh Oh, my is fucking Rochester does not have a red light district Rochester has a fuck spot Sure, I mean what's wrong with that? I'm just saying a red light district is where you go and meet a like a girl with a blue wig who tells you a secret and

If you see Prince Andrew somewhere in there, you can call a bouncer and they make them leave You know there's like a classy place. This is there has been not a smile from sexual pleasure in Rochester Oh, maybe one of the governors was made that is ridiculous Everyone's having sex and having good times in Rochester eating shake who wings drip to drinking beer slamming whiskey Rochester's a great place to drink and eat wings and Then don't dry and go to the fuck See almost more than anyone else we've covered Arthur Shawcross was the archetype of a person you'd half jokingly call a Psycho a monstrous malignant tumor of a man who nestled himself in the neighborhoods and either killed or just plain

Disturbed every life he touched. This is the problem with everyone trying to save the suburbs. Have you These people are psychotic I am really worried about home ownership Just because you never know who's moving in and then you have countless feuds all of a sudden someone's pissing in your yard All of a sudden dogs are crapping all over the place. I'm gonna tell you right now I'm gonna put fucking holes in your theory right now Arthur Shawcross was a renter. Oh Okay dangerous Criminally perverted and just plain mean Arthur Shawcross was the American approximation of Andre Chicotillo a man who

mutilated his victims post-mortem and Practiced cannibalism as a way to increase his sexual thrills I knew that art Shawcross was a fucking monster and then as you really dip into it He is He's real unpleasant. Yeah There's something about this type of serial killer that he is truly anti-social He committed every crime known to man. He never added to society in any way shape or form He only ever subtracted. He was a pathological liar. He was

Mean to animals. Well, that's not nice. He was just nothing was good about him But I think there's interesting about the cannibalism part of his crime With it when we cover certain cannibal killers like even like Dennis Nilsen or Jeffrey Dahmer or Even Isie Segawa the guy from Japan like they kind of have a like a lonely hearts killer Version of themselves are a little bit more They're looking for emotional acceptance and they want someone to stay with them forever Which is why they cannibalize where Arthur Shawcross was more of like how the fuck do I do this? The dirtiest meanest worst thing possible to fulfill whatever it is is that the far-reaching

Edges of my dark fantasies, which is not great. All right, so Dahmer is nice in comparison with Arthur Shawcross At least every Dahmer went out dancing. Okay, then Milwaukee does have a red light district. That's right Well, I mean with Arthur Shawcross. It's just like with Andre Cicatillo. It is an animalistic way of living It's taking it down. It is type it is keying in to the lizard brain part of the human brain And just keying into violence Specifically and to be as much of an animal as you possibly can be okay more than anything though He was a misfit in the true sense of the word a person who never quite entered into the social contracts They keep our fucking society going and because of his refusal to enter those social contracts or maybe his inability

He viciously murdered 13 people social contracts aren't that difficult Just become a member of the Elks Club. You just sit you have fried you have Friday fish fries No, they help sponsor John Wayne Gacy's clown career and then he tangentially had 26 babies in the basement, but um, it's not that difficult to become a fabric of society You can do the simplest things literally sit eat. Oh, this is good Did you make this? You're right? You're on the bar the whole day. Yes, I did. Oh, this is good And then Tammy will say art is such a nice guy the bar is extremely low for society

I will also say thing about our shot cross real weird-looking very weird-looking because he grew into his body I think that you would probably know Arthur Shawcross from seeing him in interview of a serial killer or interview with a serial killer on Netflix where he kind of looks like a big evil Santa Claus, but early on He's all head and I was trying to figure out a way to describe what he looked like and then I happen upon a group of professional arm wrestlers He looks like one of them. He has the body of a man who only needs his right arm to be strong So you you happened upon a photo of a group of professional arm wrestlers. It was on Reddit It was like even the thing was like arm read it. It was arm wrestling championships, and I was just like well it looks hot

It is hard. I watched it. I watched it during quarantine that and a lot of cornhole, which I actively cheered That was on TV well as far as sources for this two-parter go We used the miss begotten son by Jack Olson and the Genesee River killer by Joel Norris and Lightly used the Shawcross letters by John Paul Fay and we lightly used it because most serial killer letters are far more boring repetitive and Unimaginative than one would hope yeah, let me just give you a tiny just a tiny little taste of One of these letters, please do give me a big UFO and fill it with women to do what I tell them or out the door They go make sure you have robot guards ha ha robots obey without question

I just ate a tomato with lots of black pepper on it pepper We are not allowed got a catalog with pork products. What tastes better than pork pussy got a go pal Arthur Shawcross Is that an email from Ben kissle There's fun there's like fun I mean every once in a while he'll throw in a line like there is something about pussy lips that turn me into a sex machine Jesus all right, but the thing with Arthur is you just said those were gonna be boring Those are kind of more exciting than most serial killer letters that we've read you did just entertain kissle Those are the only two excerpts out of all of the letters in the book that have any

I guess even at the very least like a little entertainment value. Otherwise, it's just it's boring. It's plotting And it's just fucking gross. Well, especially if you read them as he sounds or he's like Get yourself a UFO no fill women. Yeah, I mean, yeah Yeah, you know how to make a lot of black pepper on it You my friend are having such a great time on the Rochester red light district You come in closer and you don't kiss me on the mouth That's not what I pay you for it. I'll pay you to kiss me on the mouth. I'll pay you to kiss me on the chest Pay you to look away. I'll pay you to go away

Well bars closing and gotta get out of here nice chatting with you So without further ado, let's get into the story of Arthur Shawcross Starting as always with his enormously fucked-up childhood in Watertown, New York just south of the Canadian border Because Arthur Shawcross does kind of have a Canadian accent his speaking pattern is very strange and boring and Also, it's puzzling Infuriating there's something about him that is deeply infuriating to me watching him because also for a person who can barely speak He has done a lot of interviews. Yeah, which I find really strange because he doesn't like because every single time he'll do an interview He's like I'm not going into details on that. Yeah going into detail, but it's like why are you talking then?

I guess he gets out of his cell. Yeah, you know what it is You know, it's infuriating about him's that even though he's obviously a fucking moron He's condescending the entire time. I hate him one the direct words of his mother Betty Arthur was quote a weird little bastard from the time you learn to walk. I believe it Born two months premature in 1945 little art as he liked to be called was born with a blank look on his face and According to his mother. He almost never cried. I don't like milk. I don't like blankets. I don't like ducky I don't like bunny. I don't like to be coddled. I like the hammer

I like the knife He's a perfect baby Sleeps through the night. That's perfect doesn't need to be fed all the time Well, the reason why he never cried is because he was incapable of actually crying like a human being from birth And he would instead make a noise that sounded like a lamb bleeding to approximate the emotions crying was supposed to convey Yeah, I'm crying I'm crying now as is par for the course Shawcross would wet the bed constantly and according to a school custodian who somehow remembered Shawcross

Arthur never had a single friend at any age during school Yeah, of course. He remembers Shawcross. He was the only he had to follow him around with a frickin mop Of course, he was like, you know that janitor is just like I had it so easy Well, then he's also was a notable oddball and then if you're a janitor besides yourself You remember one of your students becoming a famous serial killer Of course because we know all janitors 90% of them are guilty of some sort of For a very long time 7th grade janitor at St. Pete's named Bobby's just smoked cigars in his office I used to be able to hang out with him. He had deer heads everywhere. He was a great guy

Yep, the janitor at my high school is Joe Freddie. Joe Freddie was fucking great. That's right So now think about that put that in your pipe and smoke it I don't know. I think though if you took a gander at some of their journals You'd see some interesting ideas that the jugglers have The part of why Shawcross had no friends was because he delighted in making younger children cry He would also fight kids if he lost any competition And he regularly broke the noses of other children by flinging books at their faces for seemingly no reason He came out the box. I mean literally the box. He came out of the vagina an

Violent like he came out very upset and the only way he seemed to be able to communicate was physical violence You know the vaginas aren't actually shaped like a box. No, I've seen them. Yeah, okay Well because Shawcross had no friends. He created imaginary ones a boy his age and an older blonde girl who wore silver clothes Like it's all whites. Yeah, and he'd have out loud conversations with them using a tinny type of baby speak to represent his imaginary Playmates tell me Sarah from outer space. Tell me what do you wish that we could bury everyone we've ever met? Yeah, already Yeah, I wish we could get a shovel and put the whole world in grave Yeah, you're pretty smart Sarah. Now. Come here. Let me feel on come here. Let me feel ain't no arty. Okay

Well, it's his imaginary friend I suppose so he did have some ability to create he wasn't like totally I mean, you know having we all had imaginary friends. I would assume right well He wasn't very bright He did have that he did have that urge to create and the urge to have companionship but because he was not smart in any way whatsoever He couldn't come up with any dialogue from the other side that wasn't baby speak because he would talk to his friends like Hey, you want to go on down to the river and they come back like me want to go down to river. Yes I'm gonna have to kill that imaginary friend

I'm not matching that friend. That's the only way to kill an imaginary friend. That's what you all see in the movie He dropped dead friend. No, you get a job in the corporate world And then it kills your imagination unless you're a part of the 25 member social media team here at Spotify Well because of all this the children gave Arthur Shawcross the nickname Oddie, okay, but even though he tried bribing kids into being his friend they'd usually just take his money and Force him to stand on the edge of the playground because he was violently Unpredictable this is where he's kind of similar to a Jeffrey Dahmer early on where Jeffrey Dahmer became like the class Character and became a identity for him and they used his oddball status

And he used his own oddball status as a way to sort of like have a place in high school Like even though he was drinking himself in order to not fantasize about dead boys like Arthur Shawcross I think it's almost the opposite where he was put in this position But because he had literally not a single social skill. I want I wonder if there is something to having a developmental emotional problem he said that he lived inside of an envelope quite a bit later on and so this idea of being a Boy Jason Voorhees like standing on the edge of everyone playing and just been like Until you would next time I play games and play games with the organs

Jason just wanted to go swimming in the lake and the kids drowned him and then the only reason he killed all the campers is Because they murdered his mother Jason Voorhees is a very loving character. He loves his mom I don't want to have the comparison between he and Arthur Shawcross I'm just gonna you know what Michael Myers then Michael Myers's father was abusive. His mother was an alcoholic Every bit of that is retcons But that's that's my reality. I have a little bit of a zombie Influence there when it comes to Michael Well with Arthur Shawcross like when you're a kid part one of the ways that you make friends is through empathy

Relating to other children and Arthur Shawcross was born without an ounce of empathy within him He could have flipped it kid skins his knee and Arthur could have been like my lick it like you could have tried I mean that could make a type of friend. It could make something I mean a fairly it's a little sympathy when the rejection of the other kids got to be too much Arthur started bringing an iron bar on the school bus that he'd used to whack the other kids and when he was at school He'd inexplicably crawl under the radiator in the classroom when other kids started singing say the national anthem I'll tell you what people all say singing is nice, but singing ain't not singing. It's just screaming A little bit can be but then they just forced to scream do a little pretty little hole in the head

Which I say I say I just want to put my mouth on I'm gonna put my arms around put my hands around You know, I'm saying I hate doing this. I think maybe you're just listening to a lot of like grimecore or something Let me listen to like a little Enya or like a second in you. This is It's beautiful Now Arthur Shaw Cross was obviously a kid in dire need of help But when his parents were called the school to discuss his problems both of them particularly his mother Said that since all this happened at school It was the school's problem to solve

That is an NMP my friend Situation that is like see he's out of the house now we've worked that is ridiculous So if he killed somebody in a roller at a roller skate rink, you'd be like that's roller skate art If you have a problem with murders happening at the roller skate rink you should start talking to the roller skate police And that's actually what the defund police movements all about is creating Actual roller skate police so that if there are roller skate crimes Just people that are designed to administer and help with roller skate crimes can attend to them You want to hear something real stupid and speaking of corny?

Yeah, you know what they need to get they need to deep they need to get defund police to have fun to have police that are like And then again in the cops will have squirt guns and silly putty I would honestly I wouldn't and we're like we're defund police. I believe there is a movie called the wet t-shirt detective Which is what I think you're channeling. Yeah Well Arthur's mother Betty was a mean spiteful woman who beat her kids on a regular basis and when she wasn't abusing them She was abusing her downtrodden husband who deferred to her at every turn

So you say downtrodden because then I also say that he was kind of also a of like he was the lump who's kind of a loaf too Right said that he would they would not have food on the table, but he always had to have a new truck He was that type of guy that well to his parents Arthur was fine Because Arthur spent all his time out of school out in the woods And he would only come home to eat and sleep making this little psychopath a near non-innity to his parents also a weird Tip of the hat to Jeffrey Dahmer same thing with with Infinity land like the he just would go out into the woods and to his own little lonely

Big-headed blinky-faced world where he'd go out there and so did Christopher Robbins And he just went in the po the woods are a very nice place to be really I spent a lot of time in the woods myself Great, we all didn't lift wheel and grew up in Queens. I Just want a redo on everyone's childhood So When Arthur was nine to gain attention He complained of leg pains and back then sudden leg pains in a kid usually meant polio

So he was given the highly painful spinal tap test which many a serial killer was given during that day and age But as it turned out he was faking the entire time And this is something that he would do throughout his life Just fake illnesses in order to gain attention. He faked his way into getting a spinal tap Yeah, he did it because it was any form of attention that he could get truly and that's just shows Arthur Shotkos also weirdly for essentially a dullard is a shape shifter Like he likes to appear in any way shape or form to get any reaction whatsoever negative or positive or whatever whatever he just felt

Entirely ignored or he felt like he couldn't get through so something like this would be like when I auditioned for a play For the first time he faked his way into a spinal tap. Okay The need for attention Well, I think in this way I mean Henry this was something that you brought up to me on the phone is that in this way He's like Gary Ridgeway where you know Gary Ridgeway was a fucking moron when it came to day-to-day life I think his IQ was like 75 or 80 or something like that, but when it came to serial killing Gary Ridgeway was very very I mean for lack of a better word talented

Yeah, he knew how to do it He knew how to get it away with it and Arthur Shotkos was very talented and very intelligent in Antisocial ways, but when it came to anything that had to do with everyday society. He was a fucking moron These are the type of people that unfortunately unless you could get them a Really extensive help which is difficult to come by in modern America like there are no beds for the the child Homicidal kill like honestly and say there are there are no beds for these kids anymore So what do you do with it technically Arthur?

Shotkos should have just been put in a concrete square Immediately, but it's you know, it's difficult to do that to a child. That would be free crime. Yes Yes, well the year Arthur turned nine was also the year that he supposedly had his first sexual experience Although Arthur like all serial killers was also a habitual liar. So who knows if a single fucking ounce of this is true He said that he was introduced to sex by his aunt Tina Who would traipse around the house in her underwear and would perform and receive oral sex from Arthur when he was a mere 9 years old and this is where it starts to get a little bit less sexy for everyone Yeah, it's disgusting. This is not this. This is this is just the I hate to this is just the tip

Which I shouldn't even know that's not the right that's not the right analogy But he changed his story many times because in an interview with the serial killer and many other Times he said that his mother was the one doing the sexual abuse and there was one doesn't get better It's there was one Fucking clip that I saw of a psychologist working with Arthur Shaw Cross where she was doing hypnotic regression on him Yeah, and he was sitting on the couch going mom Mommy mommy and she's like what are you doing Arthur? What are you doing? He then reaches down and he grabs the very tip of his penis like in full camera and he starts going

Mommy mommy mommy pulling pulling on it pulling on it. She's like what you doing Arthur like she's acting as if He like went to the cupboard to get like you know a bag of chips, but he's tugging on his penis And he's playing lawnmower. Yeah, the tears are streaming down his face. He's going mommy mommy mommy But then part of me thinks that that was an act too Because all of these things he comes up with these very intense very detailed fantasies That that seemed to kind of feed his own inner needs And soon after the dalliance with aunt Tina or the supposed dalliance Arthur said he also started having sex with his sister genie

And before he knew it he was raping sheep and fucking chickens to death when a farmer taught him how to have sex with the sheep Let me tell us. Let me tell you this fun little story. Here we go. The last eight sentences has been so disgusting It's only going to get worse. You're on out man Jesus this remedy Just do this for a second if you have a partner or if you have somebody you're like fucking right now Give him a kiss right now and then because it's going to be over. Um, this is from Arthur Shawcross We had this neighbor he'd take us out to the barn. He had about 30 40 sheep out there and he'd tell us he says A single man can own sheep And he'd have a sheep in the pen

We'd be cutting off all the wool and he'd cut the tail off the sheep and he'd put this white powder stuff on it And he'd show us and he says you see that That's what a woman looks like. No, it's not. That's a sheep. It's a sheep sheep that is not good Someone needs to talk to everyone in Rochester. What where is the farmer? Well, this is this is this is water town. This is a little this is about I think three or four hours away from Rochester Oh my god. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the way Arthur Shawcross tells us is just like upstate new york is just a weird trashy Uh, fuckpot where everybody's just having awful nasty sex with each other all the time. No, that's not true I watched this one rock concert woodstock there

And everyone was so uptight and they were wearing suits and they weren't having sex with each other on an open field I find it interesting how often people that are from like more conservative parts like blame like, you know Like the the village in new york is where massive orgies happen and all this like and like that's sort of true But honestly, there's so much more fucking happen in water town than I had ever seen Happened in my time in new york. I don't know my frame of reference is not that great because There's no sheep in new york But i'm just saying the idea that how horny All of these people are

It's I don't get it man. You know, I grew up in the town I grew up in was less than 400 people and it seemed like every other fucking week There was a new story of someone getting molested or someone getting caught getting molested It's like, oh, he's it. Where is he? Oh, oh, he went to jail for molestation again It's like You're stealing a bike. Yeah, it's fucking awful and it's about the most conservative texts you could get We would have a cow. We would have a cow fucker story I know about every 18 months. We would have. Oh, yeah

There was a dude that got caught fucking his sister twice. Yeah, but this When arthur started fucking his sister, this is a weird story because again If you are on Pornhub or whatever it is right now, if you want to fix your algorithm, I told you how to fix this the other night start Automatically start hard typing in big naturals into the search bar and it starts bumping the step family stuff down a little bit Get some good old-fashioned red blooded american big hearty naturals in there and you will start it starts to fix The porn searches for you But he brings up the sister sex quite a bit because according to him

She had a lot to say about this. She said that that maybe that all this didn't happen But they had a sexual relationship for a very long time, which did seem to be very Specific, okay I said he was then orally raped by an older man and afterward couldn't orgasm unless he stuck a finger up his own butt first Sure Now as I said, it's hard to say whether all this is true or not Because arthur schockross was a mean little bastard before this supposed spate of sexual deviance And he was a mean little bastard afterward

Eventually growing into something close to a psychotic Dennis the menace As a prank schockross figured out how to fall off cliffs in front of other kids without hurting himself Okay, this is where that's the most normal thing so far Yeah, and when the kids would run to get help arthur would already be home before them And he would ask him what took so long in this weird duck voice that he used throughout his teens I mean that is the only part uh so far that I can relate to it's kind of funny. You flip you you you slip You fall over like I'm in pain, but you're not in pain. It's kind of nice

He's doing it old school ways technically This is how the original stuntmen of hollywood would do it Or they would just gut it and hurt themselves, but you can see how he's setting like a bar for pain like he's doing the thing I don't know if you've seen um, what's his name? I think his name is superhuman There's a guy that goes like juggalos for life He's this kind like he's this little guy that like shouts out the juggalos I mean like this is from a family and then he'll like jump through a bunch of fluorescent lights and shit A bunch of legos and stuff. Yeah, but I mean he's at least monetizing it

Yeah, Arthur Shawcross like did this thing where he'd throw himself off the which must have been just fucking hilarious of him With his huge head at the top of cliff going. Hey guys. Hey guys. See what I can do I'm a leaf Throws himself off the cliff. He could have been like super Dave Osborne And you know they didn't work out. You know, they didn't run home to their parents. You know, they were just like All right. Well, let's see if someone let's first finish jacks. All right guys. Absolutely Arthur also had his own version of fun noises with the boys Wandering around the neighborhood by himself making nonsense sing-song sounds

Or walking down the roads at night making loud throaty gurgling noises that woke the neighbors Oh the sounds of the water town turkey I love fun noises with the boys. I love fun You know, my mom used to hit me when she used to get really mad and like not when she used to hit me That's not where the fever pitch of the hits which is used to come But she always used to get real upset about me making noise for no reason Oh, you're just making noise for the sake of making noise I know making fun noises

That was the first way that I've made the other kids in the my class laugh So they wouldn't hit me anymore. Yeah, Marcus was violently bullied. Your mother was technically correct Now I make a living doing it. Yes, indeed. Yeah, I just put a roof on the house making noises for the sake of making noise Or your parents just living in a shack by the way. No every week. I'm like, we just put walls on the house for the first time How did you burrow for a living? No, you'll see you have to replace everything. It's called owning a house and also They've just been waiting for this day. They've been waiting for the day that the children will start paying for Well, you made a lot of weird noises Well speaking of how and where shall cross walked

He always walked quickly while holding his body in a rigid position while overswinging his arms But the over swinging his arms is a uh, that's some kind of tell For a neurological problem. I forgot reading about that. There there's something about that because it's him It's something wrong with his equilibrium. Mm. He also took the straightest path possible to any destination And it didn't matter if the path went through mud barbed wire or fucking swamps and he'd get caught in the swamps all the time and people would have to go help him out Now it wasn't the fastest path then was it aren't because you notice how the road doesn't get you caught in the swamp No barbed wires. So yes, maybe landmass wise it would be shorter. Please quit lecturing me and get a vine

Somehow I found quicksand here in northern new york And of course arthur would set fires wherever he went All this plus continued violent behavior earned arthur the new nickname crazy boy Okay, and his reputation was only reinforced by the fact that shawcross seemed Incapable of interpreting any phrase as anything but literal For example, if someone said liar liar pants on fire arthur would freak out thinking his pants were actually on fire You're a wizard. You're a wizard. You trip my pants of flame and I didn't even feel the heat I just feel the coldness of my knees. How do you do it? Get a hose get a hose? Wow

Okay, and anytime there was a misunderstanding like this arthur would violently lash out like when he found out his pants Were not actually on fire He'd beat the shit out of the kid who said liar liar pants on fire Not for calling him a liar but for confusing him a technically that child who told him that was indeed the liar wasn't Because the pants weren't on fire. Were they this is we're gonna get a little bit of we're seeing some defensiveness coming from kiss I'm not you know, first of all, I did relate a little bit to the walking of the fastest route You do you are like that. I do like to you are like gotta go and I'm like I'm so sick of all my friends Be like going so fast you like so long. I'm born this way

Okay We've tried to correct it for you we've tried to correct you I am just walking But he is a little bit like like michael mayers in that sense as well with the rob zombie journeyman michael mayers He just keeps moving forward and it's a thing that he goes into his adulthood with this very strange thing Again, it's just such a weird quirk that like he has to go in a straight line Yeah When he built a fort and the kids said it looked dumb arthur beat the kid in the head with a brick of ice And another time he bit a kid's testicles. He's starting to get more and more violent

How did he get to the testicles? Yeah, I bet what it was. I bet the kid was trying to fart on his head Something like that and then when you do is you just grab the butt cheeks and then you just mash your face in the testicles and then There's like a whole thing there Because he had a jerk off buddy at the time too. He had his buddy mike He used to make friends with a kid like because he became so sexually active so early Him and his buddy mike used to Used to have sex with each other used to blow each other out in a field and he's just got really used to it

So he feel like at some point his he's so used to honestly blow on other kids That for him to just dive mouth first into like a crotch of jeans is just kind of like a default setting Okay, that's intense. Huh? You want that dick so bad? You just start going right through the fucking jeans Then things got a little more serious One day he hit his female cousin in the shins with a baseball bat Then grabbed an axe and told her he was going to chop her head off All he was laughing and laughing and he's like 11 years old at this point. I think at this point

He's like 12 or 13 Jesus, okay But when the cousin's boyfriend knocked away the axe and beat the shit out of arthur He just ran away crying the same imitation Bleed of a sheep that he'd been doing since he was a toddler. I mean it was much longer and much more pronounced than like They said it was like I thought we were done with weird noises with the boys Never fun noises with the boys

And of course There was the animal mutilation Shawkrosh would catch fish for the sole purpose of skinning off the scales to watch them suffer and die And that was the least of his torture He'd catch rabbits and snap their necks flatten chipmunks with rocks throw darts at frogs nailed to dartboards drown cats and burlap sacks and in an act that for some reason Just makes my fucking skin crawl more than any other He'd scrape the feathers off baby birds. Oh, Jesus. I think it's because it's so incredibly violent

It's not like just shooting squirrels with a BB gun or something like that It's like you really have to do physical effort to scrape the feathers off of a baby Yes, you do. I remember at jordan park and stevens point wisconsin kids pulling the uh pulling the claws off of a little uh What do you call those little things crawfish and I thought that was very mean it is dramatize me forever Yeah, I remember a kid from out of town killed a swan that was on a little pond in a nearby town called Stamford and it was the scandal of the summer Well, don't kill the swan One time Arthur even marched down the road with a dead snapping turtle on a stick that he'd run through from end to end

As if he was either proud of what he'd done or wanted to show everyone just how cruel he could be Now to be fair a snapping turtle is a dangerous kind of turtle. They snap and they will mess you up Oh, I got bit by a snapping turtle one time. Well, that's because you weren't careful. You got to be it's not the turtle's fault That you're getting close to him and getting into a space. It is. It's not the turtle's fault. Are you a turtle defense attorney? I am also a turtle. I am also defending a snapping turtle because I didn't know I was dealing with the turtle court You wandered into a turtle's territory. It was just in the lake. I was swimming in. Yeah, that's his lake not yours. He lives Yeah, you gotta guess. Yeah. Have you seen Pocahontas? Wow, we don't own any of this land. We invented ownership and deeds

I didn't know you guys went to turtle law school to defend all the turtles I had a turtle when I was a kid, but I fed I've caught him and then I fed him nothing but cheese and he died. Yep So you're the turtle murderer That was good intentions though. That was good intentions. You fed it a bunch of cheese. They can't they can't do it I didn't know that. I was like eight. He just over-mothered it. Well, a horrible thing about Shawcross or at least one of the most horrible things. It's a further horrible thing. Yeah That he, like Otis Tool, was one of those weirdo creepy Misfit kids with a

Disturbingly large penis. Yeah According to his mother when Shawcross was five A doctor told her that he already had the penis of a 16 year old boy And I brought the other doctors in to look at it We all sat here and I said look at this adult's penis and we all went and we measured it and we showed him a couple old Pinup magazines and I'd tell you what when it comes down to it I want to I'd almost say that this penis is old enough to drink. I don't like I don't like the doctors are referencing penis sizes of the first time I got a physical

I was horrified and I just left because the doctor's like drop trial. I'm like, I'm not doing that. I'm leaving I don't trust these doctors who are talking about penis size because you know, then they're cataloging Oh, that's a 16 year old size penis. These doctors brains are disgusting and I think we need to get rid of them There's a lot of energy coming from you about this subject I just don't think they should talk about it with anybody I don't know. I would imagine that the mother probably saw the weird gigantic penis that was on her five-year-old boy And took him to the doctor and said is that fine? Is it should it look like that? And he was forced to say he was forced to gauge say like yeah, that's about a that's about a 16 year older there

Oh my god, let me just pull out my measuring tape next thing. You know, he's a tattoo of a measuring tape on his tongue This is disgusting. I hate the doctor. I don't like I mean honestly This is just not everything is doomed for misery and failure at this point, right? And speaking of his mother when she did have an interaction with chakras. It was only to make things worse Chakras used to tuck his pant legs into his socks for some fucking reason and when his mother saw him doing it She said quote you stupid son of a bitch. What the fuck's the matter with you? Don't you know how stupid you look and since that was about the extent of the parenting he received Arthur only got worse in school in addition to being mean and violent. He was as we said also

Terribly fucking stupid to the point where he entered eighth grade at the age of 16 after being held back three times Because I go on a limb here I know some people are held back and it's got to do with other forms of undiagnosed learning disabilities Totally this type of thing or maybe you struggle in a classroom setting ball whatever But um, I'm gonna go on a limb here and say Arthur Chakras was just fucking stupid Yeah, I also don't necessarily think he should be around eighth graders at 16 Don't you at some point like be like all right We're just gonna take you and put you someplace else

But at some point you're still be with people his age But you're with a bunch of eighth graders and you'd be like hey, listen, you know that told me and now at 16 I have the penis of a 44 year old Wow, which is weird because I feel like No, no, no, go ahead. Georgie's like thinking about starting to lick her asshole And then when she does that she has to leave the room because it smells Got you very distracted Travis save that please And now Georgie is actually leaving the room. Wow. Yeah, she did. Wow. Yeah. Um

Okay, yeah save all of this we honestly should include some of this in a commercial Now he did try sports but was kicked out of wrestling for throwing chairs and beating up his opponents after he won That's not good. I mean it was good for professional wrestling I guess it sort of sounds like the Mike Tyson school of boxing where he's just like eat him up Mike got him Mikey. Never let him sleep Mike. Don't let him sleep. Mike Tyson still had it And he was kicked off the track team after throwing elbows during foot races and hitting a teammate in the chest with a shot put Technically he should have just been in an offensive lineman. Yeah, sounds like a bit of a roller derby kind of move They said he did okay in football. He just had a hard time with the rules

Yes, it seems like that's one of the trends going here football is hard It takes millerization. You have to like have spatial reasoning. You have to figure out a bunch of shit when you are a football player Football is surprisingly difficult, but Shawcross eventually got creative with his cruelty He'd ignite gunpowder on his desk with a magnifying glass during class He mixed x-lax with fudge for a bake sale and even trained a little pet hamster To bite people's ankles and jump back in his pocket afterward If those were the only three things that we had to say about Arthur Shawcross He would just be hosting this show when they truly would just be friends with him

If you can get the little mouse to jump back in your pocket That's why I love chihuahuas so much because they bite all your friends and then your friends are like I hate that dog and you're like, I love that dog because it draws blood on all your friends ankles Remember that when get your bit your toes. Yeah, remember that really fucking hurt Yeah, I can't bite his toes. Gitch, it's gotta do it for me Not so inventively though Arthur liked to yank seats out from under people as they were sitting down And he improbably claimed that he could throw his farts just like a ventriloquist throws his voice I know it does sound like a certain co-host of this show who says his shits don't smell

Yeah, and then when he goes to the bathroom Who are coming to me? Yes, I am who says he can't smell the shits and he doesn't know why we think he should smell But I just think it's because you've got little particles up in the tops of your nose and it sort of Inoculates you against your own shit smell I think it has to because your shits are the the worst thing I've ever smelled in my entire life I am not I'm not exaggerating. I didn't know it was a tag-ben corner. Um, what I do is I have little, um pine tree Uh air fresheners. I put them on my nose and then everything that I just smell like a nice taxi So isn't that nice? I miss smelling a taxi at this point. Yes indeed

Once Shawcross hit 17 though He dropped out and became a legit criminal Burgling houses stealing boats looting summer cabins stealing money from gas stations and habitually shoplifting And all of the dudes that all used to blow each other by the river became the same like criminal team It was weird. It was like stand by me if it was directed by the like Todd salons Like yeah, it was a group of mischievous boys that also just were licking each other's assholes every afternoon Welcome to water town

Welcome to water town That sounds sling and slogan is our boys know each other very well. Oh my Shawcross also became a peeping tom spying on neighbors specifically to watch married couples have sex However, Shawcross put his own spin on it finding the married couple's children Afterward and telling the kids about their parents sexual encounters in detail Come here, Billy. Come here. Oh my god. Oh, sorry, Harold and Billy. Let me tell you right So I was watching your parents go. Oh Listen the way your father addressed your mother was one of the most simple intimate and loving things I've ever seen

The way he cared for her every need and crest each crevice of her body and and serviced her I knew then I too want to be a father Welcome to water town The Shawcross might have just stayed a straight bastard all his life just like the rest of his friends Because there have been millions of stupid criminal miscreants throughout history who have never reached the realm of murder But what seems to have pushed Shawcross from criminal cretin to vicious serial killer Was a series of head injuries in childhood and adolescence that as we all know tend to exacerbate violent and antisocial behavior in some people

I think there's something to Shawcross having such an a physically large head And his he was stupid He had a big meaty fucking dome and he had no regard for himself or anything else I think it was like he led with his head Like to the point where he was just proud of how much damage his head could take it seemed like How much shit happened to him that made him more and more deformed each time? Yeah, he's a little bit like juggernaut if juggernaut also had sex with all of his friends But he did not he did not to my knowledge. We don't know. We don't know what happened when the helmet came off. We don't

When Shawcross was just a child He was hit in the head with a rock by a neighbor Then when he was in high school He was hit by a discus and spent four days in the hospital with the hairline fracture to the skull That was back in the day when they used to give kids like really heavy discuses and like javelins and shit Oh, yeah, my grandfather. We had lawn darts Lawn darts the single the the single worst toy that has ever been created. You could fucking you could kill a man A lot of people died with a lawn dart. Yeah

After that Shawcross was working construction when a fellow worker accidentally hit him in the head with a sledgehammer And after that he hit his head by falling off a 40 foot ladder And even after that he was put in the hospital after being hit by a truck All stupid people to fucking injuries. It is it's just there's one there's one consistent thing and that is him You know like it seems like he has something to do with all of this one time You get to get hit one time with a sledgehammer But if you also get hit by a truck you also fall over get hit with a brick

It's starting to add up that you might be the problem And when according to art too when he he's like not till you would when uh when the sledgehammer hit I felt nothing. I saw a white light and uh, but I'll tell you what things are just honestly never been right with me since No kids. It's like yeah. Wow Of course not But despite his antisocial behavior and overall stupidity Shawcross managed to get not one wife But four welcome to water towns Our boys know each other really well and we'll give you a wife. Wow

Wow, his first wife Sarah Chatterton was found at the family bargain center Where Shawcross had managed to get a job working in the stock room. Was she a frickin senabyte? She was fired however for telling a woman who asked for a 44d bra that if she wanted something that big she'd have to go to Syracuse Ah, yes Syracuse the land of big naturals I don't even get it, but okay I was like, no, we don't sell nut net because Syracuse was the nearest big town To water town to waterton. They're like, yeah, if you want some net, we don't carry nothing like that here lady He's trying to make a joke

Technically though. He thought he was very funny. He really did He thought he was funny and clever and he make little jokes that even in the beginning of Arthur Shawcross the Genesee river killer with Dr. Joel Norris would talk about how like he often made jokes that didn't land Which is the sign of someone with a personality disorder And I was like, what about me? What about that's 30% of my life? Yeah But when Shawcross was fired Sarah quit in solidarity and they married in september of 1964. Yeah, she ain't no scab. No, she's not Unpredictably Shawcross was a fucking awful husband and spent most of his time down at the local diner playing pinball

Flirting with the servers and just eating cheeseburger after cheeseburger again sounds real happy days But it is not it's not no no Well after being fired from the bargain center Shawcross got a job at a dairy where he would steal 50 pound blocks of butter To use in gallon sized cream sickles that he'd eat with a spoon while driving around in his car Just trying to just trying to relax. I got my bucket of butter. It's real hot outside though. That's gonna melt pretty quick That's why you gotta eat it quick. You have to eat it. You're gonna eat you're gonna eat a gallon of cream Really quick here. Oh, this is a second gallon. That's the second gallon of cream. Okay

Well, he had a 50 pound block at home that he's just scooping And pounds and pounds you better be fucking carving a statue of mother Teresa in butter If you are going to have that much butter, but it's like that that's mother Teresa by the way a scam But we know that but that's like a very famous saying like, you know Oh why go out for butter when I got 50 gallons of butter at home. I have that bumper sticker. Yeah Well by 1965 Shawcross and Sarah had a kid but divorce was coming soon in 1966 She took her child and left and Shawcross having gotten fired from the dairy job Got hired as a packer at a cottage cheese factory. Oh, yeah

What is he what he just dairy is his game, huh? It's dairy. That's the agriculture business upstate is all dairy. Yeah All right. Yeah, he was in the milk business my friend And the milk business. Yeah, it harbors a lot of x cons and a lot of different people I'm wrong with that because milk don't judge milk doesn't oh, well, it does though. Yeah I'm black does my one who told me you had you had unpasteurized milk recently and you shat 80 pounds Well, I haven't had it recently, but I've had it and it is amazing how a milkshake just calms out the cow Yes, it does

Well while he worked at the cottage cheese factory He started dating the woman who had become his second wife Linda neary who quickly found out that Arthur Shawcross was an absolute Misfit of the highest order. He'd constantly talk about his mother saying that no matter how much he loved her He never got her approval And he also refused to drive anywhere anymore after a classmate was killed in a car accident As such Arthur would walk or bike everywhere Sometimes riding 20 miles from Watertown to Clayton, New York to engage in what will become his favorite hobby and his gateway to serial

Killing fishing Just him with a gallon of fucking cream on his bicycle Is it safe to say that this makes Arthur Shawcross the john madden of serial killers? Well, john madden. Yes indeed. Perhaps although john madden didn't fly. He drove everywhere specific Bike travel appointments. He has to use something very specific to get anywhere But despite the psychotic behavior the criminal behavior the head injuries and the fact that he never graduated from high school Arthur Shawcross was deemed fit for the draft and in 1967. He was sent to vietnam

So now we're gonna he was the only one sent to vietnam I would agree with the draft They are now sending him to fight for fight with their boys across seas Would you just all you have to be is I guess at the time was willing to die Yeah, and he was but after boot camp Shawcross returned home and married linda and he celebrated their union by taking his wife on a six-hour fishing trip that very same day Oh, how exciting where he confessed his criminal background to his new now trapped wife Now the question you're probably asking

Is how did Arthur Shawcross a serial killer who murdered 13 people including two children? How was he able to convince four women to marry him? I think the answer is simple Arthur Shawcross Was a liar. Oh I thought you were gonna reference the the dinosaur dong that he has no because it hardly worked We're gonna get into that too But Arthur Shawcross we had an interesting discussion about why women could possibly be attracted Arthur Shawcross

Because Arthur Shawcross is firmly in the unfuckable serial killer category, right? Like he doesn't have a lot of groupies It takes a specific woman To fall in love with than Arthur Shawcross But you said this to me Marcus's big theory originally wasn't just that he's a liar But that some women just like big galutes. They love big galutes. They just some girls I remember I had a friend that said the same thing where she said I only date I only date ugly guys and there's something about just a guy

Just being present. That's enough for some people. Yeah, they just sit. You know where they are I mean, there's something about that. I guess Well, Arthur's big trap is that he could put forth a sweet and gentle facade at first to trick Unsuspecting women into believing that he was just Misunderstood and that it was all everyone else's fault that his life was a bowl of shit. It's not my fault This is I'm just misunderstood When do you think he uh told them that he can throw his farts? I don't know why I'm so held on that Because it's it would be his cutest skill

It is indeed real, but I do again That's one of those if you you know, I'm in a reference to show marriage at first sight If you both Say yes to I'd love a man or I'd love a woman that could ventriloquize their own farts Um, then you'd be married then you're married. Yeah, absolutely But people in charcross's life did try to warn linda although they only did it after she'd married him ex-wife sarah called to tell her that arthur was violent and that she still feared for her life and the life of her son Even arthur's mother betty told linda that arthur was quote the bane of her life

And kept telling her over and over that there was something wrong with her son's brain Geez But linda chose not to believe either one of them and waited at home for arthur to return from vietnam Well arthur also got her with the line. He's like, I don't love you, but i'm gonna get a stipend from the government And she was like that's like how they their relationship started just basically being like you can get my money When i'm in vietnam, she's a victim as well in this in some ways But she was also co-conspirator in what seems to be a government scam then also No, not necessarily technically it was just it would be but she didn't get married for love

She got married for the government stipend that was very inadequate. She liked him. Yeah, she yeah, she liked him Okay, man money's worth it money sometimes better than love the government stipend you get after being drafted to vietnam If you're divorcing jeff basos, you see i feel like you're this is a narrow-minded view You get a new husband So you don't have to worry about having a husband anymore in the 1960s and then he's gone And you don't have to see him and then he might die all of that I mean honestly the best thing that ever could have happened to us if he would have died the vehicle could have gotten one And i would have been fine with that

Problems that he didn't see combat. No. Oh, he didn't now arthur's time in vietnam might be one of the things all you listeners have heard about Shawcross specifically that he was the only serial killer that we know of who saw any action in vietnam And that he'd in fact began his career as a serial killer in country There was a lot of guys who were in quote-unquote in vietnam, but never actually saw combat. There was berkowitz Leonard lake Dennis raider they were all Placed somewhere else usually working in radar strangely enough Yes, a lot of them working at desk jobs in vietnam and all of them were the same type of dude that is the only people who

Actually show up to a swingers party It's never those are the four men that arise it is never Like you're not going to see timothy chamalama ding dong. No, you're not showing up to us doing a swingers party. No, you're not Well according to arthur He killed 39 people in vietnam and did so completely on his own Sneaking off base by himself to wage a one-man war of brutal murder and torture against both the nva and the civilians stuck in the middle He said that he was the ghost of the jungle who would tie 16-year-old girls to trees and hack them to pieces While making another 16-year-old girl watch then he cut off both their heads and mount them on poles at the entrances of villages

So he's a war criminal even though he didn't actually do any of that, but that's his fantasy It's just being a war criminal We're gonna get into why like I think that there's a distinct reason why he lies like this And he told these stories to whoever would listen one time He told his young cousin about how he was having sex with a vietnamese girl Then blew her brains out as he had an orgasm and he told the whole story while giggling in that weird duck voice But as i'm sure most of our military veteran listeners know The man who constantly tells stories about all the fucked up things he did and all the fucked up things he saw during the war

Most likely never did or saw Any of the things he claimed, you know miguel ramirez aside. It's always the uh, just don't just don't ask him about the war He, uh, I don't talk about the war. Those are those are the stories that you do want to hear My uncle was lost in the jungle for two years and they didn't know what happened. It was in 1987 That was in Costa Rica. He was a roadie for acdc Yeah, I remember that But he you know that idea of like he was haunted by the things that happened to him and he did not want to bring it back He tried to leave it behind he tried to leave it behind and destroyed his whole life

Arthur shot cross this is the only place where we really see him be effusive with details Is the are these fake stories and in my mind after the fact of all of this it's about A fantasy of what he wish he could have done with the quote-unquote freedom of being in vietnam Well, Arthur shot cross was actually a fucking supply clerk And got no closer to combat than handing out uniforms to the soldiers who were actually going out into the shit Now he might have snuck out a time or two maybe but it is highly unlikely Part of the reason why I don't think he did any of what he did is in how he tells the stories See author did a lot of interviews before he died as we've mentioned and when he's talking about his actual murder victims

He's short and curt as if he's too busy living in the memory to tell the story with any detail He also he parses out details of his crimes to what he views You have to pass a quote-unquote like threshold of trust with him And then he'll tell you all the dirty details of the things that he actually did But the vietnam shit it rolls out off the tongue Immediately and it's very extensive very very detailed versions of highly fucked up crimes Well, when he's talking about his experiences in vietnam, he's spinning a yarn You know, he becomes animated. He's fucking. He's gleeful

It's like he's fucking telling stories about all the crazy hijinks he and his frat buddies got up to at fucking sigma chi right But most of his stories. I mean when you listen to them, they've got this like they've got a very childish Quality to them like a B movie quality and you know, that's the sort of thing that comes from pure fantasy He said he once saw a bunch of guys kill a woman by shoving a fire hose in her vagina and turning it on And he said another time he saw a dude split a woman in two using nothing more than a razor blade And another time he said he captured a female Combatant tied her to a tree and cut pieces off her hip and cooked and ate them in front of her

Before leaving her to die on an ant hill because as he said quote I was just in the mood. That's all but you see the freaking clown from terror fire What is going on also? It's like art all of your stories seem to have one common thread Women seem to die, but it's interesting how these fantasies were conscripted after He did all of his crimes that featured a lot of this activity So he managed to take his state specific memories from his actual crimes Project them into vietnam into a place where I think that he

Almost longed to go back like this idea of the lawlessness of vietnam and the things that he wished that he could have done And could have gotten away with it So weirdly he created a blueprint of what he would do later on And project it back. Yeah, it's like he heard of it when he heard about like me lie He's like, oh man, why didn't I didn't get to do nothing cool in vietnam like me lie That sucks, but art but art without clothes soldiers can't go into battle can they So when you give them the clothes you're actually doing a lot of good stuff for the united states government And you are also you're like a warrior, aren't you art? Remember think of this like the gap upsell

That's why we have the uniforms But or anytime you ask make sure you move the lip gloss as we have so many of them Yes, he also concocted stories about other Servicemen that were most likely his own fantasies of what he'd like to do to the soldiers who probably gave him shit Day in day out on the base. He said once when he was on patrol quote-unquote patrol He came across three green berets tied to trees and skinned from neck to ankles with their eyelids and lips cut off Covered in mosquitoes and still alive saying kill me Kill me

Hey You know it's a sweet death metal album cover, but that's impossible That's not gonna happen in another tall tale He said he witnessed a major's penis get split down the middle quote like a banana After one pump with a vietnam sex worker who had somehow hit a razor blade up inside her vagina She wasn't doing a lot of quote-unquote sex work. I think she might have been forced to do that Could be I don't think she was on payroll. I don't think It's not the movie seven

But perhaps the most damning evidence of all when it comes to arthur's vietnam stories Is that when he was asked to recall the identity of a single Person he served with he couldn't come up with a single name But he does a lot he has a lot of memory problems and he also specifically cuts things out They say that are the shot cross of all of zero killers that we have covered had a specific Power of denial same thing closer to a john Wayne gasey where he can just cut certain things out and never Deal with them anyway. Gasey is like a linguistic Mastermind compared to this guy. You know john Wayne gasey. That's the reason why you know, he's in the hall of fame

Of clowning. Yes Fortunately, and I wish that I feel like that should be taken back. I agree. They won't even put ben war in the wrestling hall of fame He didn't he killed his own kid, which is very bad. Very sad very sad and wife Yeah, go listen our crisp and wife episode for more information about that But no matter what happened over in vietnam shot cross came back to his marriage a changed man Although this probably had more to do with his pattern of giving up the sweet facade After marriage then any sort of war induced PTSD because that became kind of fashionable at the time

It's like if vietnam war values like if you came back from vietnam You sort of had some of the guys, you know did have very very legitimate PTSD But other guys like him and miguel ramirez Richard ramirez's uncle they used it as kind they they cheated the system They used it as kind of like a pass card. It's like, oh, I have PTSD. I can do whatever I want and get away with it It's also just shot cross never had enough. He didn't have an honest bone in him. He never did a single thing for a pure Reason he never did anything altruistically every single thing that he did was a game So even this is a further game this show he according to this but according to the jennesy river killer

Shot cross essentially forgot he had a wife when he came back He went home immediately He he got in some kind of injury, but he pretended that he had gotten shot and then he was with his mom and at one point He's just sleeping at home and it was three days after returning from vietnam And his mom came in it was like don't you want to go see your wife? And he was like, oh, I forgot I had one and then he had to go find her again Because she truly was like I thought you might have died when shot cross got back He was sullen brooding and depressed and one night almost broke his wife's jaw while supposedly asleep

During sex he'd either ejaculate too fast or couldn't get an erection at all And usually just wanted to be held like a little boy You know it takes all kinds Yes, you stop jerking off to stepfamily porn. Yeah, you just gotta stop doing it You just gotta remember this is what you sound and look like this is what it really is It's like to be cradled like a little boy and I'm going mommy. Oh, mommy That look at Arthur shot cross and then look in the mirror. Oh That's fine. I mean if you want to be cuddling is very good

I like cuddling It's not yeah It's playing with a noodle like eight-inch penis that you can't do anything with you know what I mean like it's it's a it's a It's a lot. It's a lot. This woman is going through a lot. Some people say a honeymoon. I'd call it a sour moon It sounds like it. Yes indeed. Well shot cross also became obsessed with fire And would sit lighting match after match until the whole box was gone And all this was paired with horrific mood swings which eventually landed shot cross in a psychiatrist office After just a few visits the psychiatrist recommended commitment to linda adding quote

You're gonna want to keep him away from fire. I don't want to discourage you, but uh, this is the way he gets his sexual enjoyment So what that was a direct quote? I don't want to discourage you, but that's how he gets his sexual enjoyment. So commitment's good. Well, that's a great thing I got this big cartoonishly large match He's puts a wedding veil on it in a dress and it's like that's the most beautiful woman I've ever seen Mm-hmm now linda didn't think she had the right to commit her husband So she went to arthur's parents to see what they thought and his father was all for it But betty contrary to her previous opinions

Screamed that there was nothing wrong with her son. So arthur escaped mental health treatment And of course only got worse After the paper mill where arthur worked was shut down due to a quote unquote mysterious fire Shawcross claimed to have gotten a commendation for saving people by quote-unquote discovering the fire Because Shawcross was the one who started it. See how that works Isn't that interesting? Billy Joel think about that history in that song But that was that was about a human species not starting a Figurative fire. Yeah, he started a literal fire and he did do that. I remember that

But the final straw for linda came when Shawcross flipped out and beat her until she blacked out All while she was four months pregnant She miscarried and demanded a divorce after getting out of the hospital Well, after that Shawcross moved in with a friend in la fargeville and spiraled into further criminality La fargeville. Yeah, farge la fargeville like the cop that was made fun of in uh, in what was that? Uh, well my god, i believe it's wanes world. Maybe super troopers. No, that's farva. Yeah. Yeah, it's completely different La farge. No, I think that's that might be wanes world. Anyway, why am I here? What am I doing here? I just feel like you're an english teacher in high school

I don't know. No, I get it. All right. La fargeville. Welcome to la fargeville. I got it. Yeah He assisted two men in stealing four hundred dollars from a gas station He burned down a barn and he set fire to the milk plant in Crowley ending his career in the milk business forever Can't go burning down a milk plant. Oh, that must have had an odor to it very intriguing I just feel bad for all that waste of milk. I know it's horrible because I'd be running over there trying to get all the milk That was left trying to get on get my dixie cups filled with milk my family and a big old chain Scooping the milk scooping the milk bringing it back home just saying remember you folks I know this milk's gonna go bad, but now we've got a lot of it. So I'm drinking it kids drink it up

Get some cinnamon life. Oh, I love cinnamon life cereal Well upon his inevitable arrest for all these crimes He claimed voices told him to at the very least burn the barn down and he blamed everything on his wife leaving him So what are the cops supposed to go with imaginary handcuffs and arrest the voices? What are they supposed to do? Well, he tried early on to be like, um crazy He this is a pattern he's gonna do where he thinks he can get out of it But he's also he is a liar. You said good liar, but I'm not gonna say a good lie. I think he is a liar Right. I didn't say it was a good liar. Yeah. He's just a liar and he's not great at it

You can't be a good liar. You just keep on lying lying lying, but it's impossible Well, a jury didn't give a shit and shot cross was sentenced to five years in attica Psychiatric evaluations while in prison pegged arthur with a schizoid personality type who needed constant supervision in a mental hospital And his personality type also suggested that he was a quote very high risk for homicidal behavior Damn And despite this arthur shot cross was released back into the community on october 18th 1971 22 months into his sentence You might want to write the very high risk for homicidal behavior in bold. Maybe circle it

Maybe get a little maybe get a highlighter on that And the prediction of homicidal behavior would come true Twice in the coming year Damn But of course arthur was able to hook another wife in the meantime I don't know if this is a but of course situation. I think this sentence should be but shockingly and bad shit insane He's just got better at having wives. I guess Well, he ran into penny sherbino outside of jc penny after being released from jail or r.i.p

jc penny And even though penny remembered shot cross as the violent weirdo dropout from high school He'd seemed to change and this might give you a little bit of insight into what women did see In arthur shot cross and why I kind of think like him being a glute didn't hurt Penny thought that arthur was good-looking Six feet tall with a barrel chest a pleasant demeanor and what she called a Sly sense of humor. She thought he was funny. Well, it's just I feel like I feel like You get the fish you get with the bait you use

And our shot cross had a very specific bait yeah, and certain types of fish I'm going to say called women fish in this scenario Maybe a carp and he's the bread because very unique carps love bread. Yeah, and catfish will latch onto a human penis That's on your cat fishing. Yeah Well by the fifth date penny was pregnant with shot cross's child and he moved in with her and her two existing children Now the weird and unpredictable behavior started soon after he moved in But the flavor was a little more threatening and external

Like the time he left a bouquet of flowers on his neighbor's doorstep with a note that said These are for your grave Well, uh, how long do they plan on lasting because they're plastic. They're plastic They will hopefully last until you die a happy death in your 90s. Jesus. I just planted nice. Thank you It's morbid, but uh, just like everyone to have a nice funeral. I think all fun rules are fun I laugh a lot when I go to them. I was super scared. I had a serial killer for a neighbor But you're just a friendly old grandpa. I'm like a nanny for your corpse. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you But more alarming was how shot cross was beginning to act towards children

specifically shot cross favored little blonde boys and would roughhouse with the kids to the point of physical injury Shawcross's violence continued to escalate and became more bizarre Like the time he threw a kid into a burning barrel of trash or the time he got reported to the police For spanking a six-year-old and stuffing handfuls of grass down the boys pants I think that he became They were very vulnerable and like most serial killers They don't go for a target that is going to be difficult for them to handle in any way shape or form because they don't want Their power challenge till the power games. So when it comes to kids like he obviously had

Pedophilic tendencies like and he what but he is one of them will cover this because it's very Rare for a serial killer to move from children to adults So that's why to me it's way more about the fact that they are highly vulnerable And he can do whatever he wants to them physically and they can't get back at him But that was his whole that was really his victim type like when you talk about a victim type His victim type was vulnerable because his first victims were children and his later victims were all sex workers So he always went after the most because he eventually figured out that the children caused too much heat You know when you kill children you get caught

But if you kill sex workers, you can kill as many as you want and the cops aren't going to fucking care Damn at least not until they start piling up. Yeah, right Well, it all came to a head with jack Blake Jack Blake was 10 years old in 1972 and Arthur Shawcross had approached him to go fishing Which was an offer jack eagerly accepted because fishing was his favorite thing to do Now after jack's mother mary found out that a strange man was taking his son off fishing without consulting her She told arthur to stay away, but arthur persisted and snuck off with jack and another boy on a regular basis Well on one trip

Shawcross took the boys to the market to buy bacon then dragged them along to marzano's gravel pit to cook it over a fire There he told them all his horrific vietnam stories in detail and showed them porno mags Which is all classic grooming behavior. Yeah Yeah, what finally scared the boys off though was when they were with arthur walking near the quarry Jack ran ahead and when he didn't stop after arthur called after him Shawcross grabbed the other boy and dangled him over the edge of the quarry wall Threatening to drop him to his death if jack didn't come back Technically that would be moved from like a john candy comedy from the 1980s, but when it's real

It's actually very scary very bad. It's very scary And when jack did come back Shawcross put the other little boy down And just laughed and laughed and the boys ran away terrified of arthur Shawcross from then on As he's like, oh, come on boys. I just joking. Where are you going? I just joking. He's a fucking psycho. Yes. He is. Yes Soon after though on april 7th 1972 arthur Shawcross Murdered 10 year old jack blake although most of the details are unknown because like ted bundy Shawcross never liked talking about the children he killed

Because there's no justification. Oh, there is done and he tried to justify all of his murders later on He would create up all of these elaborate reasons which we'll get into next episode, but this one. Yeah, obviously We shook him to his own core of what he was capable of and didn't know how to process it And then I think there was also a little bit of his own Fucked-up version of ptsd from how he was treated in jail after these crimes. Yeah, he should have gotten his he did Ask it. He did. Yeah, he did. Well, I mean it it's pretty it's pretty common You know a lot of like the big Serial killers that we all know like a lot of their first victims were children ted bundy's first victim was a little girl

Richard Ramirez his first victim was a little girl and they never ever liked talking about it because with any other victim They had they could justify it in some way or at the very least they could make people feel weird talking about it You know, but with a child killing a child There's you can't have no one no sane person is going to ever say like okay that I understand what you're saying there I understand where you're coming from. Yeah, absolutely unless of course that child is no child at all But they suffer from proportional dwarfism You have adopted said child and they are trying to have sex with your husband and kill your child That's different. That's self-defense against self-defense

A villainous orphan and I think all villainous orphans should be held into a very different standard. That's different. That's different. Yeah From what Shaw Cross said he didn't want jack hanging around anymore and yet the boy persisted in following him around Oh, yeah, you know how all the 10 year old boys love to hang out with the town freak I mean, it's weird. They they up to a point. They did they did and then he scared them to half the death But then jack was still coming around. Well from what Arthur said jack eventually followed Arthur into the woods Where Arthur lost his temper and hit the boy hard in the head Arthur said realizing that he would be sent back to prison He then strangled the boy to death to hide his crime and left the body in the woods

And in later journals Shaw Cross said he returned to the body again and again Apologizing to the corpse until there was nothing left but bones That's one version of the story But in another journal Shaw Cross admitted to something far far worse Although we don't know if this is true or not because jack Blake's body wasn't discovered until all the flesh was long past decomposed Shaw Cross wrote that in the days after the murder he returned to the body Cut parts away and ate them raw Including the penis

testicles and heart He then claimed to have had sex with the body then left it there to rot amongst the trees And I think it's interesting. I think that there there might be There's something in between here that might be real because he won't talk about the child murders Ever again no past the beginning when he is first caught He will never speak about them on record again He finally decided that oh, I don't talk about that anymore because even his shifting story became

Something that he couldn't understand So we know for a fact he but he loved to visit bodies After the fact and we know for a fact that he committed cannibalism several times later on in his sex worker murders So I think that there's a there's a thread here that he might have at least Tried it. Yeah when he was in locked in this process because again Maybe he was having all of the reason why those situational fantasies about vietnam were so

So Fleshed out and so important to him later on was that maybe he was having those fantasies while he was in vietnam And then a part of the reason why he doesn't remember a lot of people is that truly he was vacant In a fantasy world that entire time that he was overseas and heard stories Maybe he'd heard stories about people saying these types of things And maybe he did see some sex workers when he was in vietnam and sort of made these stories up Extrapulated them and now he finally gave into his like because he always had a problem with impulse control That's what the fires were. That's where all the stealing was

So there there's something about this where I think he finally just like gave in to his worst self Definitely possible. Well, meanwhile the police were of no help whatsoever And seemed to barely care that a 10 year old boy had mysteriously gone missing Even though jack's mother mary blake told them right off that a weird guy named arthur shawcross had shown an almost Obsessive interest in her son. They didn't really care Instead because the blake family was known to be a somewhat rough grouping of people They immediately suspected her and focused what little investigative effort they could muster on pinning the murder to mary

And their estimation shawcross's background was an arson which somehow precluded him from child murder Their investigative efforts half-ass at best ended after only two weeks That's like someone being like, oh steve gnash, he plays basketball in no way. He can play soccer It's like yeah, he's an athlete. He's an athlete like they can do multiple things But also there is that thing too at the time where they considered poor kids To they just run away that whole thing that they always said same thing with remember dean coral all of that shit We're just it's just oh they run away. You know these 10 year olds. They always go hitching Yeah, because the blake family was huge, you know, they were they were there was a lot of them

They were poor. They were always in trouble with the law So, you know the the cops are like well if anybody did it it was mary But we're also not going to put that much effort into it at all and after two weeks boom nothing And because the cops were lazy and uncaring Arthur Shawcross murdered Another child just a few months later in water town this time killing eight-year-old caron hill Again, the particulars of the case are muddled But police think that Shawcross decided to murder caron hill

almost on a whim On the day of the murder Shawcross rode his bike down Huntington street in water town to a bridge Where he left his 10-speed bike leaning on a fence I had heard one story that he had said was that he had spotted her once And she reminded him so much of his sister When he was that age and that he projected That onto her that it became then I I don't because you know again

It's coming from his mouth So I don't believe him you know fucking at all that is also why auditions are so hard because you never know when you're going to Remind someone of their next husband or an ex-wife and then you're just out you're just out immediately That is a really good lesson to take from this. You know folds of your own. Yeah, I think so of your own Well, Shawcross then hid under the bridge like a troll and lured his eight-year-old victim underneath as she walked past Once she was out of sight to anyone but Arthur He punched her in the face and stomach then strangled her to death with her own shirt He then raped her so viciously her skin split and stuffed her mouth with mud wet leaves and grass

Once finished he covered the body in rocks, but left the head visible And that's how she was found the next morning He learned how to do that with the Animal mutilations that he did that became a thing that he would start to do is that when he killed animals in order to keep them Quiet he would shove mud and leaves in their mouths because I guess that's also what the farmer that taught him how to Have sex with sheep. This is a fun episode. I love I don't like it. I love recording this on 9 11. It's really fun But he would go and they keep the the farmer taught him. That's how you keep a sheep quiet while you're having sex with it

Oh, right. Good. Yeah, and it's fucking awful But yeah, I mean he took these awful lessons that he learned from these awful people throughout his life Uh, and he applied them uh to murder Horrible now this time the body had been found quickly So the investigation was much easier and therefore the water town cops didn't have to work all that hard to find author Shawcross otherwise they might not have ever fucking found them the police department's bloodhound Corporal redstone who sounds like a very good boy despite his association with such incompetent fucking officers Well, he was competent though. He was he immediately picked up the trail from the murder site

And led cops directly to Shawcross's apartment door. Holy shit. I just did I just did this mission on spider-man Yeah, and that's where the story ends and arthur Shawcross is arrested and he's put in prison for the rest of his life And 11 other people aren't dead. Yeah now and that's why we're all members of the us olympic team basketball And that's why we went on to win several gold medals Oh, and now we're on tour with our rock group the last podcast boys and all we do is we won oscars for best songs Last year, I remember that. I love that one. Wibbly wobbly goes the bat. I love that one Well witnesses had also seen Shawcross hanging around the bridge that day They'd also seen his bike propped up against the fence and the cops finally remembered Shawcross being reported for stuffing grass down a little boy's

Pants which mirrored the grass stuffed in Karen's mouth You have it sounds like there is one problem in this town. It's arthur Shawcross. Just arrest this man It's not a big town. It's a town of 25,000 people. That's it. Just arrest this guy. It's hard because it's not hard Because the problem is you're under arrest. Wait, what do you do? He outhearted us to cast a new town pervert? We just lost our last one. How are we supposed to find another one? We need one. Maybe you just cancel the series Maybe you just cancel the town pervert for a while But then next thing you know it gets picked up by peacock. I know I love yes peacock. Yes Well pretty soon Shawcross had half confessed to the murder of Karen Hill

And when Jack Blake's body was finally found after the murder of Karen Hill even though Jack Blake had been killed in April Shawcross kind of sort of admitted his involvement in that as well. You said oh, yeah, literally he said I might have done that You might have done that. Mm-hmm. Oh, huh? But in a case of gross injustice that again sounds like pure fucking laziness The district attorney decided to give Arthur Shawcross a plea deal of 25 years For manslaughter and the death of Karen Hill if he admitted to killing Jack Blake as well Think about this. He did the same level of crime as albert fish

He did the same level like he just did And these are two albert fish moves that he just did which albert fish is known as one of the worst boogie men in u.s I mean world history world history And that's just a part of his crimes and he just got like essentially a slap on the wrist for doing Uh Surreal true. I mean word. That's why he is a heavy hitter like right heinous crimes And it's I don't know how that happens Well in the da's estimation Shawcross's confession to the murder of Karen Hill was weak

And the evidence linking Shawcross to the Blake murder was circumstantial so rather than risk and acquittal or Honestly, I think because the da didn't really fucking feel like prosecuting a difficult case Shawcross was sentenced to 25 years for two brutal child murders that included both rape and cannibalism That's every stripe on the serial killer flag. That's every one of them Yes, indeed Uh before Shawcross took the plea he'd played the part of the ptsd adled vietnam vet a mentally scarred mess Who'd killed because the voices had told him to do so and that's partly how the 25 year sentence got sold

You know, it's like well, he's he is mentally ill. He's not And you know, he's not criminally insane per se like he knew the difference between right and wrong But he's mentally ill so yeah 25 25 years in prison that'll straighten him out And you know what's great about what happens in prison. It makes you more normal It always yeah, because their focus is always rehabilitation. Of course But once Shawcross returned to Attica Prison psychiatrist described him as well oriented pleasant cooperative and no more than mildly depressed Saying that he was actually too stupid to be psychoanalyzed and that's where he just that's the superpower

And sometimes you can just be stupid enough. Wow to just slide like fucking pigeon shit through the system That is Jeez, however additional examinations diagnosed him as a schizophrenic pedophile suffering from an inner-minute explosive Personality who is completely unconcerned with the suffering of his victims or their families But those evaluations they kind of got lost in the shuffle and I got to say that's why we really happy to have you here as the shift manager at amazon Because you really show all of the qualities we need here at the warehouse. That's true And here's your whip make sure if they get on a line They also seem to ignore his violent outbursts like the time he bit two guards cut another with a shiv and set fire to his bed

After refusing to leave his cell because the rest of the inmates had found out he was a fucking child killer He was treated very harshly in prison By everyone as he should have been. I mean honestly, I mean maybe not. I don't know what to say about that That's like one of those like gray areas because we know what he did Later on so you want to say like you're happy about this, but it didn't help anything No, it because it definitely didn't make him a better person It did not fix a fucking thing and it made everything worse. No, so there's no Silver lining to any of that got his ass kicked a whole bunch and a whole series of other things

But yeah, I didn't it did not reform or help the situation No, no, but even so his wife Penny stood by his side and never believed Arthur had killed two kids And continued to believe in his innocence until he finally confessed to her in a prison letter Adding that she was an idiot forever having believed him. Geez. Oh my god. No, he's a uh You can go ahead and say he's a real piece of shit. I think that's safe to say In further psychiatric examinations He would change his story about the murders saying he killed Karen Hill because he was taking a dump under the bridge And Karen stumbled upon him and he was afraid that a little girl witnessing his dump would threaten his parole

That makes a lot that makes sense You know it all adds up. That's why whenever i'm committing a crime in the middle of it truly from now on Just take a public dump take a dump. Yeah But the problem was that every single psychiatrist who spoke with Arthur Shawcross had a different opinion With some saying he showed progress while others would label him as a definite menace to society But since the new york prison system was so overcrowded and because there was no consistency to any of these reports The parole board decided to believe the more glowing evaluations And Arthur Shawcross was released from prison on parole in 1987

Having served just 15 years for the murder rape and cannibalization of two fucking kids Well, that was a mistake Well, this is more about overcrowded prisons and over sentencing and fucking all that sort of shit They kept the guy in who's smoking the doobie. He's still there Gotta get Arthur out of there make room for all of these kids who believe that carter Was better than ragged dc carter finally came out and admitted that the story was true about his son smoking weed on the roof Willie nelson's cute We're writing about Arthur Shawcross his parole officer said

This man is possibly the most dangerous individual to have been released to this community In many years. Oh my god And 11 women in rochester new york We're gonna find out just how correct that officer was couldn't they just get someone to watch him all the time and just He's gonna mess up like we're gonna get we're gonna get into why we're gonna next episode We're gonna get into exactly why they didn't this wasn't the freaking 1800s. This is like 1987 1987 20 years away from the smartphone. You can't fucking figure this out like oh my anyway, we'll get into it We'll get into it. We'll get into it next episode's gonna be a lot of me doing that

By then they then it's already been done I hate to say that to the word this sentence, but the genie has been let out of the lamp Now he's the genie you rub the lamp and you like that's the genie that comes out So you want a million dollars? How about this? How about uh grant the wish of you experiencing the simple taste of human flesh? I don't want I want a million dollars I hate Aladdin 4. Aladdin 4 gets really darned Jumps the freaking shark. All right, Arthur Shaw-Cross part one

Disgusting. Um, but uh extremely uh, yeah psychologically fascinating as well So thank you all so much for listening to this episode on Arthur Shaw-Cross We are back to some heavy hitters here And um, we got this week. We're covering uh, Arthur Shaw-Cross next week Then we have a fucking UFO story that I've been waiting to tell for a very long time and then spooky season Begins. I know that Halloween has been largely canceled, which makes me um

Emotionally upset, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get into this right now But what I will say is that we're gonna do our best to keep some Halloween entertainment flowing in october We have a bunch of special shit that we're gonna roll out and tell you we're excited to tell you about that We've been working on and I uh, you know, and we don't worry on last podcast left. We're gonna get A spooky speaking of UFOs. We have an interview with sarah skulls. That's henry and I Uh for our patreon. We're talking all about UFOs and her of course her wonderful book They're they're already here. It's great. And then she goes she goes and she has a skeptics view But she is very kind to us. Yes. She's very sweet

Uh again, keep on supporting all the shows here on the last podcast network the lpn show this past week I had jason signs. We talked about his recovery from Uh being paralyzed and it was just really remarkable stuff looking really good too. He's doing great Of course jason signs for all of you old school lpn listeners back when we were ccr jason signs was the host of unlimited lives Which is a show that we had way back in the day Absolutely And he started the rivalry with holden about video games on roundtable and that's where sign signs started

He would bring the signs into the studio and uh and roast everyone Ed Larson came up with the term sign signs and uh, yeah, so check out the lpn show politics is uh able against top At wrestling kind of fun for all your music Uh inquiries you can listen to no dogs in space. I believe they're covering the misfits Oh, that was many months ago. We are now three Great We're now, uh, we're three parts. It wasn't many months ago. It wasn't many months ago It was many. I think it was about two or three series ago. I think they're covering the misfits

You can say he did add a kind of question mark And I appreciated the question mark. I really I did appreciate the question mark But no, we're uh, we just released part three of uh, dead kineties where we we just talked about fresh fruit for riding vegetables And I don't want to ruin this for anyone, but the next big band they're doing is the traveling wilberies Uh, which I honestly think is going to be really exciting. No dogs covers the traveling wilberies Marcus didn't like any of my suggestions He was like talking about like what they're going to do in the future and I was like fucking seager And he's like he doesn't want to do seager and I was like well springsteen and then marcus the eyes his eyes rolled

And I was like, uh, that's the prince of new jersey. Yeah, the prince of new jersey, but you don't want to do it though That's fine. I uh, I appreciate springsteen. He's great. I love the album Nebraska, but I don't get springsteen fog hat But you want to do that? I can't talk about I I agree. I'm not gonna fake it and talk about a guy that I don't get What about Edgar winner? That's not bad. He had a full band You're not gonna do Edgar winner. I'm sure he'll get to it. He'll get to it. No, he's not doing any of my favorites You know, it's not for us bad company

But uh, yeah, we've actually we've talked about bad company a little bit in one episode That's pretty cool Yeah, he's pretty cool guy. He's our friend. Check out last podcast merch too Yes for that. Absolutely. We have this week. In case you are nude right now We have close for you. We have close for you. You can go look at it or if you need a lighter to To light your sweet sweet chiba. We got merch there for that Legalize it. Absolutely. No, don't criticize it. Honestly, they need to release everyone who's in jail for marijuana. All right. There we go

Thanks for listening everybody. Never forget. Hail yourselves. Hey, what's a ton again? Magustylations everyone. Hail me and how about um Instead of killing how about you read a book read a book? That's a great thing to do during quarrying times. If you're a corny read a book instead Yeah, yeah, but I mean honestly you can't master eight now. You can masturbate now I mean now that it's just not during this whole No, I don't think people this is gonna take a while. I think before people can get in the groove I say wait an hour wait an hour until after you listen because you don't want any lines getting crossed

Don't cross the lines. No, it's like ghostbusters. Do not cross the streams here. Do not cross the streams I'll cross some streams with you This show is made possible by listeners like you Thanks to our ad sponsors You can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listened to go to last podcast network dot com