Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 439: John List Part II - Daddy Train

Episode Date: January 23, 2021

We continue the story of family annihilator John List. On this final episode, John executes his family one by one before slipping into his alter ego — the very boring fry cook Bob Clark.Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0

There's no place to escape to this is the last talk on the left That's when the cannibalism started Hello, my name is Reginald Dirkmeyer and yes I did have a troublesome family and I did think of violating them But I tell you what I went out of my backyard one day and I said instead of annihilating my family when I annihilate some of the Overcharges people face with aluminum siding Catastrophe that's what my store is called I won't kill my wife. I won't kill my precious daughters. They've left the home

It's too late for me to kill them But instead I'll have nine Miller lights and I will move some aluminum siding well everybody here at family annihilators anonymous Let's give Reginald a round of applause Oh my goodness welcome to the last podcast on the left everyone I am Ben hanging out with Henry and hanging out with Marcus family. Hi Marcus. Oh Hey, I'm good. How are you? Hi was very much like you have a severed head in your trunk and maybe a gun in your pocket Are you boys?

When Marcus becomes an old-timey peanut salesman, that's how I know Carolina is dead You know the thing about penises they give you protein and you can also throw them at the corpse. What was that get the net get them Well, that's a nuts Nuts for nuts. Oh, I do love nuts for nuts. Mmm. All right. Well speaking of nuts Let's talk about man. I'm so good at these freaks you are. I am just a professional broadcaster Wow Just incredible. All right. Let's talk John list part two and the final chapter So after John list decided that the only way out of his financial moral and religious

Quagmires was the complete annihilation of his wife mother and three children He began taking steps to make his plan a reality. This is a reminder to anybody who thinks they have a lofty dream Uh-huh. If you take a dream and you break it up into practical steps You too can make your dream a reality. Absolutely Nobody sees the steps that go to you on top of the mountain But they will see you on top of that mountain and in this case the mountain is your entire family covered in blood Because obviously a lot of times you're going up, especially a very big mountain the corpses that litter their way or how you find Your way to the top, you know

The corpses that you create sort of kind of like the little booster engines for the shuttle That is you towards the pinnacle of your existence. How phenomenal would that be though? You're climbing Mount Everest you freeze to death and you become the greatest You become the greatest step in helping others. Wow I'd rather live You don't want to be a human frozen step. No, no, no, I want to be a podcaster I want to sit in a chair. I want to be on a set somewhere with a cashmere sweater on. All right Now even though John already owned two handguns a nine millimeter and a 22 pistol

He went to the Westfield Police Department about a month before the murders to fill out a handgun permit application Which required him to leave a copy of his fingerprints Okay, just wanted to visit and let the police know my plans and honestly, they were incredibly encouraging Very much so said too many families in this neighborhood, and I was you boys are just simply full of it today That is strange hear me out. He has two handguns Guns for your feet So what you have is a trigger that's a little bit larger Guns for your feet and they can just go Henry get back here. Henry

He's going to the refrigerator you need to hear this billion-dollar idea guns for your feet. So now you have four guns And that's all you need Henry get back here That's all you need. You're shooting with your big toe and you're shooting with your trigger finger You're right kill a family not doing the show any more 10 seconds use a bomb Guns for your feet What's really strange about this however is that John lists had absolutely no reason to register his handguns

And he never even picked up the permit Now it could be that this was a part of John's plan that was abandoned for some reason But it seems like the only purpose it served was to give the police Definitive fingerprints for later use. Let me make sure I get my whole thumb on this I think I only gave you a partial I want to make sure you know, let me just do you guys need any signature examples Here's me with the glasses on here's me with the wig on Here's me dressed as a fireman Can you go back to you dressed as a sexy lady, please? Absolutely

That's a great wig No, but two weeks before the murders John list perhaps as a final gift to his daughter Uncharacteristically gave Patty permission to have a Halloween party in one of the list family mansion's ballrooms for all of her drama club friends This is where I wanted when you talk about the banality of him becoming Interesting right and the idea that he's so flat and so nothing he's so shallow that it becomes compelling This is one of those that actually to me speaks to another side of John list that he is trying to It's the covert narcissist part of him that is very much being like oh you want a Halloween party I'll throw you a Halloween party where he's now going to set this stage where it's not just I don't think it's a gift to Patty

I think he's allowing them one more way for them to transgress on one It's probably his least favorite holiday. This is trick-or-treat, Johnny Halloween is a fucking choke point for John list where he sat every day being like and then the jack-o-lanterns They will come but the best part about a jack-o-lantern is how it melts slowly, but surely like he is just he fills it with Halloween Decorations sitting on being like oh you're dressed as a voice. I'm kind of Robin Hood. That's fine. I'm dressed as thieves I'm dressed as a responsible father. Well, you're dressed like you dress every day No, I put a different pair underwear on Well, I think it could be that but I think it could also be him

Justifying it one more time because he sees this as He sees the murders as him being a good father He sees it as he's taking care of his family and ensuring that they go to heaven and in giving her this Halloween party It's like look at how good of a father. I am I'm giving my daughter one last thing before I sent her to heaven That's what I was saying. That's what I was thinking rather. Does this make him a missionary killer? There is this is trying to do it so they can go on to heaven This is where the family annihilators all over the plot where it's like people keep trying to say that's either like You know the coerce of heart of the livid heart like the idea of you know, how many types of family annihilators there are

We got short ones. We got tall ones. We got fat ones. Come on down to family annihilators DVD store Yeah, it's mostly videos of men killing their families Like he really does he is a he's because he is self-righteous because another break them There's four types of family murderers according to psych central that I was looking at there was in the breakdown Which is self-righteous disappointed anomic which I talked about last time which is the economic killer where he says He's killing them to save them economically and then paranoid But he has touches of all of them because he's self-righteous with the religious part of it And the idea that he is he is a truly a missionary killer. He's disappointed because he saw Patty's nipples

He he's not and then he's getting paranoid like now It's also the other thing where he's starting to feel the pressure the constant building pressure of what it's like to be a Button-up real father in America in 1970s. Well, there's only one option left You got to kill your family. Gotta kill your whole family. Okay? Now while the drama kids had fun in the ballroom here at this Halloween party John stood on the upstairs landing and glared down waiting for an opening to lord his morality over the kids whom he considered Luciferians in training He considered all he considered all actors to be Satanist

I invited you but then you took the opportunity to accept this obviously Sarcastic I didn't This was a trial and a test to see if you can hold the line Okay First of all there is no Bobby Napples and I was promised Bobby Napples also if it's sarcastic mr. List write the entire thing in italics Then I'll understand it's sarcastic because you didn't even communicate What are you doing? Give me a sword lord? Let me cut him down one by one

Oh, this is technically the scariest Halloween I've ever had well finally John had the opportunity to ruin Everything when he saw a boy either drinking smoking or making out with a girl depending on the report He was doing one of these three things what we do know is that John rushed down to the ballroom and tried kicking the boy But instead missed and fell down which Of course echoed his father's failure so many Halloween's past You just sit him there cuz it's like the same thing. He just fucking made the fucking he tried to kick him in the butt He missed he falls down the party laughs of course to hear the same laughter of the trick-or-treat Johnny

Trick-or-treat Johnny You go for the king you best not miss Someone has to hold the line Well following the humiliating Halloween party he invited people after that John moved into the next phase of his plan which involved informing the victims in a calm and orderly fashion in A rare move in the world of family annihilators. It is honestly. Oh, but not just rare I think this is the only time I've heard this happened in any one of the other family annihilator cases I researched that is the definition of rare. Yeah

John list actually set his three kids down at the kitchen table and Explicitly told his children that they were all going to die at his hand very soon You know and it's one of those funny bits where it starts being being like first of all kids So I hope you enjoying lasagna. Yeah, it's great lasagna. This is a little too ethnic for me But just want to know I'm looking at all your kids and I just can't help but kind of giggle I think it about what's in this lasagna. Oh, it's Joe. That is just pasta sauce. I got some pork I got some sausage in there. I got some bay leaves I got a whole thing like you know what you know, I hate it. I hate it. It's such a good job making it. Italians made me do and will war too

But I just can't wait. I just giggle just thinking about how empty those chairs are gonna be For all the room I'm gonna have to just really really stretch out It's gonna ominous and strange that our dad would say that but I guess they will just enjoy this great lasagna He's just starting to get kind of manic like he's starting to get powered up Yeah, I think the reason he gave for telling them was that he needed to know their final wishes He know burial or cremation. Which one do you want alive? Is our third option called don't be dead honestly I was looking at the survey because I wondered if there was another option a survey usually is more than two options

That's the binary. This is a two-option survey Okay You're just gonna have to choose one of these and be happy with it because the other one's kind of like you know Like oh, I wish it wouldn't rain tomorrow. I have to go. I have to go. I want to go running. Yeah, it rains anyway That's what I'm gonna do You're gonna rain on us Okay, well shocked and terrified the kids one by one said they'd want to be buried buried So very interesting I think most kids don't say buried anymore. Do they I mean, what do you think Marcus?

How do you want to go? We're all gonna die. What do you think I mean? I I would have said buried at 16 and I'm saying buried now. Okay, you're a ground guy Henry I I'm going to live forever. I'm gonna have my brain uploaded into a computer The goal is to save my body and we're gonna freeze me until that's possible. All right thrown in the trash Me I'm gonna go with just a nice old cremation. Okay, perfect. Cool I mean if I have my druthers I'd go for a mausoleum, but yeah, we got to get you a tomb Yeah, a tomb. That's what I want. I want to go with with the fact that we're saving so much money on trash boys funeral I'm gonna find those viable scientists from Harvard and get some help

Okay Well once each kid gave their preference John silently left the room and locked himself in the sanctuary of his office And just kind of left the kids to deal with it. Okay. Well father has some work to do that doesn't even Enjoy the lasagna The list children didn't keep this little conversation to themselves Daring Patty's next drama lesson with Ed Eliano. She very explicitly told him mr. Eliano My father is going to kill me. Tell me Patty You many times I've met an actress who said their father is going to kill them, but they never do they never do it's all of these

Promises and no delivery. Okay Now Mr. Eliano was like that was horrible acting and she's like I'm telling you the truth He's like no, I don't believe dazzle me next time The acting teacher in the movie with the derobber Blake movie Looks a lot like me which is very strange, but you know how you tell he's an ad drama teacher big scarf Oh, yes, indeed because that's car as we learned from the late great Robin Williams now. It's a baboosh Now it's a hangman's news

Well when Ed told her she was exaggerating she got angry and said we know he is going to kill us because he Explicitly told us he was going to kill us. You know how many reviewers said the same thing about me. Yeah, I mean Really people should have taken this much more seriously Obviously just given the character of mr. List right because the guy isn't a joker Well, she she was the he was the only one that was told and she recounted the whole conversation in the kitchen said he sat us Down said he was gonna kill us asked us if we wanted to be buried or cremated and all but all Ed Do all Ed did was go and just wondered out loud what the time was But at least they're employed in acting teacher is beyond useless. That's the thing most actors are completely useless

I e the imagine video that came out earlier this year and did nothing no help but then the other the thing is that Tom Cruise and Scientology shows what happens when you make actors Active and proactive and want to save the end of fucking whole fish and the grocery stores for some reason But Tom Cruise also will be the only actor in LA Which is he's had he's done this several times We'll pull over if a car is like stuck on the side of the road and he'll help you but it's just to propagate Scientology I bet you know what at the end of the day if he fixes my tire I don't care the motivation same thing with Bruce Springsteen

He'll help you but he'll just do it out of the kindness of his heart and to maybe get a good song out of it Oh, yeah, use me. Use me Bruce. Absolutely. That's when I saw big fat man broken down And that was my motivation for this song called fat man broken down. I'm out of ideas No one might forgive Ed Ileano for not saying anything to anyone prior to the murders if it had just been patty Talking about all that stuff But when Ed drove patty home one night John List jr. The 15 year old middle child also gave Ed a warning John jr. Walked up to Ed grabbed his arm and Urgently told him to come by whenever he was in the neighborhood saying please understand

You are welcome here at any time. It is the equivalent of the Call the police so it seems like there's multiple people at this point that could have put on their Investigator, he's the only one Ed is the only one He only has an investigation outfit from when they did Sherlock Holmes Well Ed later said that John jr's voice was full of quote quiet hysteria and when Ed got back in the car He saw John List in the window staring daggers Oh, and yet Ed Ileano didn't say anything to anyone about what was at the very least an abusive household and at worst a

murderous one But there is the big reason why Ed Ileano probably didn't say anything Yeah, because Ed Ileano was in a bit of a compromising position with patty list What seems to might wait what's going on? She was banging that the not banging. I don't know if they were banging But I don't think they were banging were they just watching like white Christmas together and just enjoying the sounds of people singing I honestly think it started as one of those. Mr. Holland's opus I'm an old man kind of obsessed with my nude lead at my new lead actress, right? I am the only other lead actress and they

Uh, they kind of had this balance. Oh, this was about a band teacher whose son is deaf. Yeah, but beautiful beautiful beautiful Cole, yeah part Like kind of into that high schooler. He's like he's like kind of sexually obsessed with I refuse to acknowledge that sex exists when I look at Richard Dreyfus. I just I don't there's no sex there There's a couple of lucky ladies out there that love a Richard Dreyfus. I was Warren I put it Elizabeth Warren up there or someone who would be sexually ravaged by Richard Dreyfus if she got a shot I will take Jaws Richard Dreyfus. I think there's some sex appeal there with the whole savior thing But she had like a real they had like this kind of like flirty

She became really emotionally effusive with him that became really really close But I think that when what happened was which I think happens very often He was maybe sexually interested in Patty and they were kind of having this side thing doing extra rehearsals and shit But then she's like my dad said like literally like said out loud that he's gonna kill us all Systematically and he was like well, this is getting serious More than I bargained for yeah, so not not really not that it was his responsibility, but not a hero Yeah, and we're gonna further prove that that he had the choice and said no Oh, that is just there's just a lot to unpack here and the second act is just not gonna direct itself

You know I mean I have to choreograph the beer hall push scene for Hitler the musical which I've written myself But he should know they he's like mr. List is basically showing the gun So he should know the rule of theater is if you show the gun by act three you're gonna use it Yeah, he didn't get there in the history theater book That explains a lot Well Monday, November 8th the night before the murders Patty called Ed Eliano again Begging him to come over as soon as he could for reasons that she wasn't clear about and reasons that we don't know today But Ed was tired and he was kind of annoyed with the whole thing and he was also a little uncomfortable with the idea

Well, I mean He doesn't know because she was like cuz you get a little bit. That's a little bit like mr. Eliano, I need you I need you I got I got to have you On one side. He's just like I mean like god damn it. She does need me I can't can't believe I was pretending to be gay for all these drama credits for so long But then all of a sudden but that's the same time But she doesn't he doesn't know that it's cuz John List is blasting classical music in the house Openly cleaning his gun being like three days

He's just trying to rewrite taming of the shrew to correct all the mistakes that were made with the original document Now obviously John had said something that night because he later admitted that November 8th 1971 was the night that he decided for sure that his plan was just righteous and Inevitable according to he just stared in the mirror and was just like check That my plan checks out he had in my mind he wanted to do this for like for years Well according to a later confession during that last night in the house of this family he slept Extraordinarily well Wow

Now even though John List made the final decision the night before the day in question had been in planning for weeks In fact John's original plan and this maybe speaks to how much he hates Halloween His original plan was to do it on November 1st all Saints Day because he figured that was a particularly Good day to send everyone to heaven He had one of those like magical realist thoughts where he's like the earth is closer to heaven on November 1st and so that they will get to heaven faster. I only take my astronomy lessons from people who failed at accounting But the Halloween party apparently got in the way So John moved the date and actually circled the date November 9th on his calendar

Now really the preparation for the murders really wasn't so much about the murders themselves But we're rather more about John's escape because the murder plan was actually quite simple John planned to kill each member of the family one by one in a quick and orderly fashion Over the course of the day then stack the bodies in the ballroom where the Halloween party had been held just days before After all that was done John List would simply disappear He had a plan a man a plan a canal Panama Panama I don't know if Disappearing is a plan he was gonna like disappear like a fucking like a leprechaun or something like

Yeah, he was you that he could be you know how Batman always disappears when you turn around Problems. Yeah, every time you turn around you look back you just continue to see John List and he's like just trying to get my keys I wouldn't get him but I wouldn't lose my head if it wasn't a fucking attached to me Indeed just like your family did I guess on service of the escape John canceled newspaper delivery a few days prior It's not no no It's he reasoned that a lot at first I thought it was that same thing that he was being cheap and kind of fastidious But he was reasoning that a large pile of newspapers on the front door was gonna raise suspicions from the neighbors

Yeah, so it's even more nefarious. Okay. Yeah, it's it's so much more nefarious. It's strangely better than being cheap However on the morning of the murders John heard the familiar thud of the paper hitting his front door And while he was annoyed the first of many annoyances that day I can't believe how I'm being tempted today. He made a note. So poor guy How aggravating to kill your whole family and the paper has shown up and my goodness But he made it he did make a note to call the paper again Before killing his family. I could just see him It's like the the video game Paperboy

But that Paperboy doesn't understand that there's a man within the house like looking at you with a gun like maybe he's one Honestly, why should I let him go? God, Johnny? Let this one go for old time's sake if Paperboy met Friday the 13th both of those like two-bit video games That's a perfect collab right there. Hmm. It's interesting. It would be cool. Yeah, I did not want to sidetrack it That I mean death does actually show up in Paperboy That death crosses the street. Yeah There's death in Paperboy. Yeah, death happens to all children. Yeah, eventually they become adults not to all

Then they become your Biden and then they become a ghost. No kidding Nevertheless John still went outside grab the paper and began reading because he still had time to kill before the murders I mean, you know he came fuck. What is he gonna do? He's gonna have stress? Yeah time killing my family I themed the day you get it However, John found that the stories and ads featured in that day's paper further solidified his belief that he was doing the Right thing. There was a story about a vote mandating prayer in schools being stopped in the house of representatives Wow That which by the way only lost by 28 votes. It was close. It was close

It's not and again, that's the vote to mandate man in school Yeah, yeah, so it's not like you could still theoretically just pray, but you don't have to be forcing other people to do it 20 really wanted to force people to pray because you're you're only gonna get people to believe in Jesus If you force them to believe in him look at John less. He's great There's also an ad for boogalos. He's helter skelter featuring Manson's smile on face. I don't like about him Is his beard no real man has a beard What are you talking about? That's one of the things that we have we can have beards. That's really cool 1970s beards were for drifters and for art school teachers quote-unquote

And finally there was an ad that announced that the best-selling book of the year had been the exorcist Oh Well rewarded today, that's a cool ass time of that's a cool time for the country Yeah, I mean, that's if we were to see this particular edition of the newspaper We would look at it like this is fucking awesome. Holy shit dodge the bullet looking good. Charlie. I love the exorcist Yeah, this is the best news day and Henry Zabrowski is weak. I can't believe Man, this is gonna be so funny because I say it all the time I can't believe they made a book out of that movie the exorcist. Yeah, I always like to flip it see

I've done this a thousand times guys. You don't know my job No, I know they made a book out of that movie I know the book that comes first. I know this joke. I'm explaining the joke because it's so funny Actually John this tried reading the exorcist he bought it And he stopped reading after two pages. He threw it away because he thought that it glorified Satan Yeah Devils that the villain in the yeah, I really understand if we swim definitely glorifies the priesthood more than Satan That's true. Yeah, but John this edition of the newspaper

John saw it as proof that the world was fallen into the hands of the devil Which was all the more reason to send his family to heaven post haste So at 8 30 a.m. The milkman came by for one of his twice weekly visits to deliver the regular list family order of six quarts of milk butter and eggs Gotta get you forget about the cock. I Do think the milk I have a fantasy the milkman probably studied most of the suburbs in New Jersey Well, the milkman found however was a note requesting that the delivery stop until further notice because the family had gone on vacation and Here in the milkman note was the essence of John's entire plan

See John was a student of true crime and had studied all the different ways in which a killer might be caught So John's personal plan for getting away with mass murder required two things time and distance John had to make it appear as if the entire family had left town on an emergency And he had to make sure that the house attracted no visitors like paper boys or milkmen He knew he knew he couldn't keep people away forever, but the longer the bodies went without being discovered the further away from New Jersey John list would be So after the daily parade of morning visitors to the house came to an end John right on schedule Decided that it was time for the murders to begin

With the kids already off to school John could take his time killing his wife and his mother Also, this is taking a long time and he's really put a lot of work into this plan So the way he works is which is how he always tried to keep himself out from underneath pressure You know I mean because when he was to work at his corporate little job We was a little fucking his accountant job He knew that what it takes is you got to do all the leg work beforehand so that when it comes to tax season It's easy. It's easy

So they say they say if you work really hard in practice the game is easy the game is easy So he said he's it all it's working now. He just knows he just folds up his newspaper and he says well Time to start my first Monday of my new life It's such a I mean It's really creepy when you think about how organized and patient and just sort of methodical it all is How heinous the crime is I mean it's really I can't it's almost scarier than someone like the always mentioned Richard Chase Yeah, where it's just like I went in because the door wasn't locked and it's crazy But there's something even scarier about this. Yeah, this isn't a crime of complete and total uncontrolled passion

This is a list of errands to be done. Wow the daddy trains pulling out of the station I think about the daddy train is it doesn't care of a bunch of little kids are on the tracks That daddy train is going to new daddy town He could have just gotten a divorce again, but whatever we know that Why'd around 9 a.m. Helen came downstairs to the kitchen to heat some water for her coffee John was waiting and the two barely acknowledged each other when she came into the room as was their custom That's not a horrible marriage. That's their custom John gave Helen enough time to have a sip of coffee

Then he pulled out his 22 caliber pistol and aimed it at her head from about 18 inches away Without saying a word he pulled the trigger and shot her in the jaw Helen was knocked to the floor and blood began pouring from her face yet She was not even close to death So John shot his wife Several more times to ensure that she was no longer in the land of the living now This hadn't necessarily been a part of the plan Helen and John's mother Alma lived on separate floors And they in fact had two different kitchens

So they wouldn't have to interact with each other at all one of the perks of having a mansion you can't afford I guess and had there just been one shot Alma probably wouldn't have noticed But three or four bullets fired from a pistol was sure to attract attention Yeah So John ran to the upstairs kitchen on the third floor where his mother was also having coffee When he opened the door without knocking the first time he'd ever done that to his mother and his whole fucking life She immediately asked what the noise downstairs was again

silently John raised his pistol and shot his mother above the left eye at point blank range if you look at the this These type of mass murders I think they lose a little bit of like, you know, what you'd call like traditional kind of gore or intensity that you'd say Well, I know there's no killers But if you see it when you look at the crime scene photos because the crime scene photos show you just how Grizzly of a crime it actually was especially the pictures of Alma They got all my body. Well, no, that's the grandma was because

he specifically wanted them to see him pull the gun and so both of them died in total surprise The the look on Alma's face on her dead body is Horrifying because she literally looks like you know those pictures that they do and grow like what they do with gun training schools When they go to like have like cutouts of like Is with their like in hostage takers She looks like one of those with her arms completely up and her face in this look of total shock Frozen in a scream like the fucking back that painting the

Screen yeah, yeah, I mean it is a look of pure Anguish and surprise yeah, man and for some reason hearing like the the jaw being shot off You can just I mean you can't even really imagine what she must have been thinking like how frickin nuts of is that you got your jaw Shut off by then shut off, and then you're like, I mean god poor That's just you know want to say that ain't right for no one to die like that. No, no Now as I said John's plan was to drag all the bodies to the ballroom Presumably to keep them away from prying eyes who might peek into the windows over the coming days and weeks But Alma list was far too heavy for John to drag down the stairs

Instead he rolled her corpse up in a carpet runner and dragged it down the hallway where it was crammed into a small utility room Then out of respect for his mother He used newspapers and old towels to clean up the wide streak of blood left behind by the dragged corpse So after stowing away his mother's body John returned to his wife's He grabbed her feet and dragged her to the ballroom leaving behind a 40-foot-long trail of blood Then in an impotent tone-deaf gesture of gentleness John laid out a series of sleeping bags on which to lay his family's bodies. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense

But this is again the deeper side of what could be called a covert narcissist where he did this for himself Mm-hmm. He put out the sleeping bags to make himself feel like I'm giving a gentle send-off to my family It's like what happened with Chris Watts with his family when he killed the little girls when he killed his kids Which is the worst part of the whole thing. He had to kill him twice Which again very similar to John List in that respect, but it was a if I put them someplace where I don't have to see him It's more like a disappeared but Chris Watts was way more like that where it's like it's like they're gone Look at that. Wow. Wow. Yeah, they're just they're gone And that's why he put them in down in these big oil tanks. Yeah, but this guy

It's just I guess it's why it makes me hate him even more. It's because This is obvious. He keeps saying this was there to help my family. This was to protect them But no, it's not it's not fucking you buddy. It's definitely one way to make a haunted-ass ballroom. I'll tell you Well, once he opened up two sleeping bags and laid them out flat next to each other He laid the third perpendicular above the others and rolled Helen's body into the middle of the floor palette He'd made for the family Helen's bathrobe was then arranged to cover her legs and John grabbed a bath towel to cover her torso while her face Was covered by a towel from the kitchen this time

John soaked up the pool of blood left by Helen's fatal wounds with paper towels and newspapers This is just a pathetic ad For bounty and I can't believe that we're doing this and Marcus, I'm actually upset with you for doing this in show Because we know we got our big bounty money coming Once the bodies of his mother and wife were in places John felt were suitable He walked to Helen's bedroom and wiped his bloody hands on her sheets Then in his only moment of emotion during the entire ordeal John rolled and convulsed on the bed Ran to the bathroom and vomited where he left a bloody palm print on the toilet list

I just wish I crash test dummy's music video. What's going on? Just wish I killed her with the fucking knife. Yeah, but you used a gun. What are you upset about? I didn't want to ruin the knives. Ah, I see once he composed himself John showered scrubbed off all the blood and Put on a fresh suit and tie He was due for a 10 a.m. Meeting with his boss at the insurance company But John called and canceled saying his mother-in-law was sick and the whole family was heading out that very day to be with her in North Carolina, uh, John, I can hear you winking over the phone Did you by any chance kill your whole family honestly right after I go and visit my mother-in-law

We are gonna have to actually go to the doctor because my eyelids are too tight if you can hear that. Oh, yeah Because unfortunately, I can't have everybody know what I'm being Again, righted in italics next time John then wrote letters to the kids schools making the same excuse Saying that the entire family would be gone for an unspecified amount of time until the emergency had passed Then John went outside and raked the leaves in his front yard for the last time Which drew looks from his neighbor because the temperature was a record low that day And it was also the middle of the work day

So no matter what happens no matter no matter the fact that eventually someone's gonna go in and find all of the rotting bodies of Your family you are still too embarrassed to have leaves on your front yard or was he it seems like he was also just like human What do human do human a little bit like I'm sure he was right just a little bit almost to get through the day Hey, well, I think he also realized that he was not going to live in a house for a very long time And he was the sort of guy where raking leaves on his front yard Made him feel good. He liked it. He liked it. He liked to set those simple things that like well I can just go rake the leaves and that's that's done and there's no skill involved See every father wanted a son that raked the leaves, but you know what those sons do they kill their whole families

Look at me now dad With no family at all so technically maybe we have killed the family Yeah, you do the family Just by shooting in the air At noon though John's plans hit a snag He'd been expecting his daughter patty home at 5 p.m. Which would have made her the last family member murdered that day But at noon patty called to say she wasn't feeling well and needed a ride home So john annoyed picked up his daughter and drove her home to her death in silence

When he parked the car He hurried ahead inside as she collected her books So he could make sure to get a good spot to get a drop on his 16 year old daughter Always be scared if you've never seen your father run If you've never seen your father run and then you watch a father who is most moved at a sandaled saunter If he scurries into the house being like oh, I got his purse And he just said two days ago. He's gonna kill everybody. I just stay in a car Yeah, maybe just go to the neighbor's house or something but a minute later

She followed him through the laundry room and as soon as she closed the door John raised his pistol and fired a close range into the back of her head making patty the only member of the family Who didn't see it coming? She fell to the floor and thankfully died quickly Her body was dragged to the ballroom as well leaving behind another 40 foot streak of blood And she was laid next to her mother's body. Now. The nice thing is you could actually I know you wanted to be an actress Tom Petty has a music video in about 25 years called Mary Jane's last dance You could be Mary Jane

Unfortunately, you'll just be a skeleton at that moment. I'm sorry. They're actually They are taken to supermodel instead. I'm sorry. They're gonna have to pass on you. They're moving in different directions. Yes I'm a bad father By 1 p.m John had showered and changed clothes again and it was back to running errands Oh my god He cashed an 85 dollar personal check at the bank then went to the post office Where he mailed the letters to his children's school and filed a form requesting a 30 day hold on mail delivery

Because you can't have mail piling up. Do I feel like almost it's about the forms Same thing with the fingerprinting almost. I think he loved forms I think he thought that he was going to be okay if he just did all the proper paperwork They'd be like, well, we can't arrest him. Uh, he went down. He did ABC. He did it. All right We know the fact that he that is correct. He actually almost got away He almost got away But there's something about like this idea of like he did all these like jurisprudence things where you like walked around He did all these like governmental bullshit. Yeah, like it's very strange

Yeah, but it is all in service to the plan. It's all back to the plan again and again Well, still at the post office John also scheduled a special delivery to his house to be carried out that afternoon at 5 p.m That special delivery was a letter containing a note and a key Next he went to another bank and cashed a check on his mother's account which drained the last of her money See when Alma list had moved into the mansion in westfield her account sat at a pretty hefty balance of $50,000 But by this last day John cashed a check to drain the last 200 oh

And also cashed in a stack of savings bonds worth two grand So they spent all of his mom's money on this money pit of a house probably right? It's not just that it's everything It's their way they were living and so the clothes Yeah, their lifestyle he really just you could that's how much of a fucking planter He is you can just see him buttoning up his suit and just be like, you know the difference between me and you I make this look bland But he went and he took it to the very last minute Like he was borrowing and stealing borrowing stealing to the very last second

Yeah, and this thing of the $200 and the $2,000 in savings bonds That was the last of the list family money And that would be what John would use to start his new life the very next day But it seems like he negated the most important part of escaping which is money You'll see you start he hasn't he has a understanding. Okay. Yeah Now by 3 p.m Fred list the youngest son showed up to his after-school job and learned that patty had gone home sick from school that day So he called home and asked for a ride back to the house presumably so he could take care of his sick sister

Apparently fred was a very sweet boy John again annoyed at the unexpected change in plans Picked up his youngest son and again drove him home in silence and again rushed out of the car So he could get the drop on his kid as soon as he walked in the door He's annoyed. They're messing with his murder the whole family plan What he actually doesn't understand is that they are actually helping him with his plan and giving him these opportunities more than them Showing up a surprise while he was murdering the family. They were all good little kids calling him and letting him know all of his Shit that was going on meanwhile because they could have interrupted him

Moving a body. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah this time. However, so he should not be so technically. He was too blessed to be stressed in this moment All right This time however, john faced his son as he raised the gun and fred was fully aware in that moment That his father was making good on his promise to murder his whole family and cold blood And after firing a single fatal shot John again dragged the body to the ballroom where fred was laid next to his mother and his sister But following that murder john's plan was nearly discovered by the only family member left John jr. Was supposed to go to soccer practice

But since the day was unseasonably cold practice was cancelled and john jr. Ampled on home early Luckily for john senior. However, he saw his son walking up the driveway So he was in position when john jr walked in the door But when john jr walked in the door Also, probably saw all of the blood He saw his father raise the gun and he was able to dodge the first shot But all this meant was that the bullet went in john's back not his head and he fell to the floor wounded So john list fired again. Yet john jr. Still would not die

John senior then pulled out his other pistol and two gunned the murder like it was a fucking action movie John woo. She's like as his 15 year old son crawled across the floor Oh, like it's la new war or something. Yeah by the end of it john list had shot his middle son 10 times That's what it took to kill him Geez, all right He was also I feel like I might have been his most quote unquote emotional death And I wonder what I don't think this death was emotional. I don't think any of the deaths were emotional

Yeah, he was nothing. He's gone. It was efficiency. He just he just kept shooting He did the because he did the same thing with helen. Well, you know He fired shot shot shot shot and and speaking to the emotion I mean the person in the family that I think he had at least the kid that he had the most Emotion towards and the most you know hatred towards was patty. Yeah, and patty was given the and patty was given the kindest death of all So I think it was just he shot until he was dead until he stopped moving And you know when he was shooting john junior with the two hands and he's gone He was just like, why can't they invent guns for feet?

So I mean that was just I guess the idea died with him didn't it what if a good song comes on? You can start killing random That's that's up for uh, that's up for you to that's up for you to talk to the judge about So after dragging john junior's body to the ballroom to rest alongside the others John rearranged the bodies where three lay side by side and the fourth was above Perpendicular to the rest it's haunting looking because of how organized it is. Yeah after all good to have human jenga Yeah in your house with a bunch of corpses. It looks like a tiny little jones town Like it's that it's that sort of uh laying out of the bodies. I mean, thank god this guy wasn't more charismatic

It could have been a jones town. I mean this guy didn't have the personality to be a cult leader Something about the idea of the way they were all Plotted out. It just shows just how much time he spent with these dead bodies. Yeah, like it's very strange And it's about night It's ultimate Final control and the sweet you think he was happy hanging out with the corpses. He talked about it immediately I mean when he goes on the road He himself said he felt a relief because of how much strain he was under and so this is a sense of relief

That he knows when they're all huge relief And after all the bodies were arranged in a manner that was to his liking John dropped to his knees and prayed for forgiveness done Look at that. Isn't that nice forgiving. You know, you could have done that. You could have not done that Nope had to drop your knee had to do it. Yeah Okay, that meant that in john's belief system if you were to drop dead at that very moment He'd be welcomed into heaven with

Open arms. Thanks, god I see you up there family, huh? I mean one thing though. Actually, I didn't really think about just how My family might actually be mad to see me in heaven, but yeah, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it You know, I mean it seems like a fatal flaw in the uh in the uh religious doctrine there But a couple hours later at 5 p.m. The mailman arrived with a special delivery letter. John mailed himself earlier that day But john set it aside for the moment because there was still a few loose ends to tie up At seven he called his pastor the good reverend Eugene a rey winkel at the redeemer of angelical lutheran church Yeah, yeah, yeah, gene rey winkel is a that's a hell of a man right there

Well the two of them had a friendly chat And john told his pastor that the family would be in north carolina caring for helen's mother until further notice John then called ed iliano patty's drama instructor and told him that she'd be missing theater workshops for a bit And she would be unable to participate as an understudy in the upcoming performance of a streetcar named desire as was planned Also, i'm just going to put this right here and say you straight up your midsummer last summer Honestly was subpar Yeah, I think that john I think that he would just be upset that it didn't take place during midsummer You'd be like technically it's fall. This does not line up

Yeah, this is not the fall. This is not this the season. I am experienced. No, no Next john sat down and wrote a series of letters on stationery Which had been ordered for a consulting business that john had attempted to build But it failed to get off the ground along the top of his customized stationery it said john elist career builder family Yeah, what career would go to him for help? First john wrote a letter to his mother-in-law who was completely unaware that she'd been used as a means of subterfuge

And john list escaped the letter apologized for the murders, but gave list reasons Namely that he couldn't support his family anymore But didn't want everyone to go into poverty or hell done and done another slam dunk checks out. All right Next john wrote a letter to helen's sister gene saying pretty much the same thing and oddly Oddly offering what he called his sincere sympathy for the unavoidable death of her sister And here's an iou for another sister. You're gonna want to keep that That's an important one Then he wrote a letter to his mother sister lydia starting this letter the exact same way

He'd started the other three quote by now You've heard what has happened to helen and the children It that was but that's how we started it. He's every single one of them by now. What's he gonna start with? Hey, how you doing? How's them hanging Yeah, you know what it's a good point after you kill your family. How do you address it in the letter? Yeah, well the the way you address it is that you act as if it's a storm that came in You may have heard. Yeah, this thing just happened to them. Yeah, he didn't do anything It happened to them. They they they brought it amongst them onto themselves. They did this. It's like they killed themselves

I just was like the guy that like unfortunately had to pull the trigger. Yeah, what it's hard for you I'm actually more sympathetic towards you. Look at my finger and it got burnt. It did it got burnt by the mayoral Well, that's actually why I'm so happy you're here because I've been uh in the business of guns for feet For a long time, sir. I got a sword. Do you have a sword trigger finger? How's your toe? I find this business to be responsible and I actually think that you should visit me Johnny You list career builder We'll start talking about how about instead of building guns of your feet double guns So you have twice the gun for your hand that works too

Well, this letter to uh John's Aunt Lydia was the first one that mentioned his mother although he again Justified his actions by saying that he'd saved her from untold anguish That would have resulted uh coming from his actions and that he had relieved her from quote This veil of tears. Whoa. He's getting fucking like goopy with it. Yeah, he really is. He's getting far Now what is this? This smells like a vagina. This candle smells like a vagina Next he wrote to his boss Pull out that flame! Pull out that devil's flame! Helping the fuels, the fuel, the fumes and fuels of indecency Last podcast butthole candles coming in May

Next he wrote to his boss at state mutual life insurance a man named Burke And he apologized for the way he was quitting his job He is really circling around the things he should be apologizing for I already apologized and it's as good as any. He's good as not doing and I apologize. Okay He then added quote I want to thank you for everything that you did for me. You treated me better than any associate I've ever dealt with and I am sorry that I have to repay you in this way I am again. I'm sorry. So

This is not an act. Kathy moment. What do you mean you're sorry? I said, I'm sorry. I don't know what else you want for me An apology is the most hardest thing to say. It's so hard to give a genuine apology. I didn't ask for the blood of three virgins as payment I'm sorry What did I okay? So, yeah, so the letter really so he's just sitting there and at this point The corpses have got to start smelling. No, no, it's just these are they're all fresh, buddy No, but you the human body defecates right away. You smell death fairly quickly. It doesn't have to be decomposed. Yeah, I smell shit Yeah, I mean it's gonna be sitting there smelly. It's kind of not smell great. It's a big house

You know what guys? I'm a fucking idiot then And it smells like a glade plug in and it's just a beautiful summer rain Well, john saved the last and longest letter for his pastor the good reverend gene raywinkel And this last one john further justifies his every decision writing to the pastor as if he's trying to plead his case to god John actually wrote and what was an unwittingly damning indictment of reverend raywinkel's character that quote You are the only person that I know that while not condoning this Will at least partially understand why I felt I had to do this Oh, I think you're greatly like overestimating my ability to handle someone killing the whole family

Understand how hard you understand you need a flock. You need a flock. You know what you do with a flock. You shave them, right? You get a little from a flock. You don't shave birds. You don't shave birds You're shepherd. I'm a shepherd sheep flock of sheep not of not a flock of seagulls Also, uh, I am I've had it up to here with you Your mad at me you just killed your whole family and you're mad at me now You're gonna have to understand why I have to do this Now you're dead gene father gene god damn it. Also, you can insert your own ray finkel jokes here Well, the one thing about this letter, which I love is this constant reiteration of

If we had only all gone in a different direction We'd be in a different place. I don't know about the we part. He keeps saying we he's just like we are just We really just couldn't get past this point I mean, we all couldn't rise the occasion rise to what god wanted from us But it's like it's weird because he's not included in the annihilation. Yeah No, we And he keeps saying like if we only had one of these things to deal with then we would have been fine But all of them together. It's just too much to bear

If you know say like if say we were poor, but patty wasn't into acting then that would be fine If I didn't see her nipples on wednesday, we might be fine. Okay Interesting thing. I guess one last thing about the control with john listen his children Is that even though all of them had told them that they wanted to be buried? John explicitly said in his letter That the kids preferred cremation and john also added that it needed to be done as cheaply as possible Yeah, because also caskets are expensive. That's the truth. Funerals are very expensive. So he all of that is monetary Yeah, he started the dad was all he wanted to see the fear in his family's face

Yeah, he told them that he was going to kill them all he wanted them all to beg and be like no daddy No daddy, we will we'll follow whatever you want like he wanted them to all flip and change and they Like he thought that him presenting this final ultimatum was going to make them all Change as human beings there. They will change. It's called aging and they're not going to be kids forever. That's not fast enough Just wait until they're 40 and then you can be a grandfather or something John then asked to be dropped from the congregation roles and wrote that the murders were most likely what god had wanted Because god hadn't answered any of his previous prayers concerning the kids his wife or his financial situation So you're gonna give this a 93.3% of like this is what god wanted 93%

Listen, let me I'll show you god. All right. I'm gonna kill my family silence means I can go ahead God I'm gonna kill my family You your silence is implicitness All right. Well, thank you. All right. Oh actually hold on a second. John John I was just about to answer yo is I was actually shoving a pineapple of hitler's ass But John John I must have been nothing Well, finally after signing his name

John ended the letter to reverend ray Winkle with this post script PS mother's in the hallway in the attic third four She was too heavy to move But okay. Do you need to make the fat joke also? This is the post script. I think it was a week. I think it was more of a weakness thing Because she she was an elderly woman. Yeah, and she wasn't that big. I hate this. I mean, obviously I know it's shocking, but I don't like this guy. Well, she's like 140, but you can still roll Someone who's 140 in another room. Yes

Who cares you can flip her and roll her if you really want a series of ways to You can put her on a carpet and drag her if you wanted to he did do that, but it was getting her down the stairs I think it was get I think bumper down the stairs. I but I think that would have been too Disrespectful and too crude. Yeah, he just shot her in the head Well after writing all the letters John then opened the letter he'd mailed to himself earlier that day The key contained therein fit a lock on a desk drawer in his office And all of the letters he'd written were locked inside The note from the letter was placed on the desk and the note gave instructions to whoever found the bodies to contact

The authorities then use the key to unlock the desk where they would find letters That would need to be delivered to the correct recipients What a fucking drama queen and also a pain in the ass. Yeah, am I playing the room in the very very difficult game by the way The room I remember that I don't understand this like I don't know if like I don't know if you wanted to introduce like an element of ritual And finality to the murders, but I don't understand why you had to go to the post office mail himself a key Right and a note just to leave the key and the note on his desk I also love that he pointed out. Oh make sure to go to the authorities like oh, I was gonna go to the water park

Like no shit. He had a version of thing He had a version of ocd I think that there is a part of it because I understand it from what I've understood of how My behavior when I described it to a therapist once and that therapist said it sounded like I had ocd Sounds a little bit like this where he I think it's about magic thinking magical thinking mixed with ritual There is also something about more distancing where he sends the letter out So it looks like it like he was already gone was like maybe there was a Maybe there was like a tiny period of time where he thought maybe I could blame it on somebody else

Maybe right right. Yeah, I was gonna say was this some sort of did he think that he was going to be able to get away with it? Did he think that he was going to be able to uh because of all the documentation away with it Oh, yeah, maybe actually I think I may have figured it out I think I might know what it is is uh, if he was already gone by the time he got there by the time he uh But if he was already gone that day for whatever reason then The letter and the key would still be at the house. Yes So somebody would find it eventually, but he ended up still being there But when the the whole thing was delivered it was like a failsafe

And yes, and his obsession with the control of the information has him put these steps in So they have to go through all of his rigmarole to find all the reasons why like to go through So he wanted to make sure no one would find it beforehand He wanted everyone to find out at the same time in a highly organized anal uh, absolutely, uh Just just what a what a shithead these people are all they're all always such fucking drama queens. Jesus christ Mm-hmm. So after the letters were taken care of John made an eight dinner then slept until before dawn Hold on. I don't know what he made. I don't know what he made. This is a Ben Kissel toss-up. I'm saying sells very steak

I imagine he made a cheese sandwich He wasn't the cooker Mm, then he slept until just before dawn with every light in every room except the ballroom on The next morning he destroyed what family photos he could find and fed Helen's fish And the family photos thing was also a part of the plan Mm-hmm The last thing John less did before leaving the house was lower the temperature on the thermostat

Which made sure that the bodies already decomposing in the ballroom would be kept at a low temperature To prevent any kind of smell from reaching the neighbors, you know, this is uh, you know, this is november in new jersey And an unseasonably cold november in new jersey. So those bodies were essentially kept on ice He turned his mansion into the most expensive slow cooker in the plan He turned it down It's like a slow cooker no matter what I guess Is it possible in the another act of total douchebaggery that he did that he turned it down for financial reasons as well? He was like, oh you better turn it. We keep it at 69 degrees

I think I might have to do with the smell and trying to because also that other thing too He didn't want them to compose that insanely because he wanted them to be found in a respectful way Okay, whatever John's last errand in town was to drive by the office of kmv associates where patty and fred worked part time To drop off a letter excusing their absence from work and with that John wrapped up the last loose end without a single slip up He then drove to jfk airport parked his car in the long-term lot and abandoned it Effectively ending the trail for investigators for another 18 years. Oh my god

It would be a month before the family was found and that's the singular reason why that's the really it shows that what you He is correct. How do you get away from cops? Especially this time period because it is difficult. They don't have like, you know, all the same databases the electric Well, now we would have put it all on tiktok Now he would have been like, look at what I've done and then he would make a fun song about it He never liked effusiveness and you have to be able to let go to be good on tiktok I guess you're willing to be with the the rhythm on tiktok and have that risk motion. Is that right? See as far as the town of westfield new jersey was concerned the list family was simply at a town on a family emergency

It wasn't until november 20th the night of the streetcar performance that the drama club started worrying about patty There's 11 days after the murder See john list had left every light in the house turned on when he left But since the lists were in and of themselves strange people No one in the neighborhood gave it much thought until the lights in the house started burning out one by one It has now been memorialized in every single true crime podcast or documentary or the now the movies that I've seen It's this is how the movies always open right? They always open with him eating the sandwich at dinner Like robber blake who also robber blake played himself as a 16 year old in it, which I did not know he played john list as a 16 year old

You should see him in his like army Like his army, whatever that like, you know with the nice ones. It's not the blues. That's navy blues Whatever it is that he was wearing fatigues. Yeah, no, it's like the nice like Uniforms that they wear okay, and it's robber blake just being like I don't understand mommy We're going to get married soon like him trying to play a child was incredible But it's always this scene of the the mansion with all the lights on Classical music who can hear it blaring from the inside as the lights slowly Burn out yeah on the inside eventually becoming dark

That is the one problem with high def isn't it you can no longer be 50 and play a 16 year old Nowadays you actually have to be in 1993 It was still low def you once though. That was all grainy. That was that was all uh smooth snow polar bearer in a snowstorm That's what he used to call the spice channel and then you would hopefully try to jerk off to a boob And then you you realized you were watching the horror network and it crossed the wires and this is my story Yeah, this is the ben kissle store Well the schools were starting to ask questions as well when the days john liss had originally told them about turned into weeks

Ed Eliano the drama teacher tried talking to the police But they said they couldn't do anything because there was no evidence of wrongdoing But without a patty there is no winter review Well, it isn't that the biggest crime of all And finally on December 5th almost a month after the murders Ed Eliano decided he was going to take matters into his own hands I will use my costume from the cat burglar diaries and I will go over there and show them And maybe yes, I am an actor during the afternoon, but in the evenings I too could be a man who does a bit of investigation on his own

I kind of need to see this guy do that. Yeah He drove to the house and searched the windows until he finally found one that was unlocked And so Ed entered the list home Okay, after a very brief search Ed came upon the bloated Decomposing maggot infested bodies of Helen and the children Oh, no Yeah, that's your actor

No, oh This is too much I mean kind of upon seeing them Ed ran away got into his car and drove home And what he said was a blackout state, so he doesn't remember Oh wait, oh he didn't call the police Yesterday is gone, see the pretty countryside Merrily we roll along You can just see him totally shook, opened up his, opened up his car door, turned to the key

Oh, oh my word Oh, the only one who will calm me after this is a nice glass of milk and a little bit of hamlet's Sililliquy chapter 3 verse 9 7 4 11 12 That could all be real I have no idea He said that the site was so overwhelming that it took him two days to fully process it My slippers didn't fit for two whole weeks. Wow, that's really sad. He didn't call the police. No Okay, what I mean, I've whatever well, he finally decided after two days that he had no choice He had to do something about it. So he went back to the house

Wait, yeah So he went back to the house and made a lot of noise breaking in this time I'm breaking into this home. Can you see who's that incredible singer? Oh, it's the drama aficionado aficionado Just call the police And that caused the neighbors to call the cops And when the cops I am useful when the cops finally entered the house They found that john had left his favorite classical music station playing on the radio at full blast

Hey, I'm symphony said you just kill your family Here's a song to take you back to when you had a family Do you need to calm down? Here's some Wagner This will help you really drift off to sleep after killing one two three four of your daughters Four days later john list car was found in the jfk long-term parking lot during a routine check for stolen vehicles But there was no evidence whatsoever of where john list had run off to All right, hear me out. Hear me out. He either got on a plane and went to start a new life or he became one of the cars We need to open up every single

One vw bug just turns into john list Now in 1971 this was the crime of the century in new jersey So police chief knuckles moran put everything he had into finding john list That is a nickname that I don't want to know how he got it's how deep I get I guess But since john had obviously left new jersey the fbi got involved as well First they put up flyers and pharmacies all over the country because john list had such severe hemorrhoids That he consumed a conspicuous amount of preparation age. Hey You know

It should not be your hemorrhoid drip on every seat that you sit on Then they're gross Then the fbi put up flyers and every optometrist they could find because john was so badly nearsighted He had to frequently change his prescription Finally the fbi tried putting up flyers at lutheran churches But not a single one allowed the fbi to do so. Why not?

Because they didn't want to be involved. They didn't want to be involved and you know, I'm sure it's also that other Bull I'm sure it's also that other bullshit things like everyone deserves a place to worship Yeah, but they also have a lot of churches in prison There's a shbolo to churches in prison Actually never go to church in prison air quotes because there's a lot of unprotected sex that occurs and a lot of violent things that happen And that's where a lot of snitches go. So dune. I've been watching a lot of youtube. There's a fat guy who was in prison That's really interesting talks to about don't go to church because you will assume you're getting blown in the bathroom And then they make fun of you

That's why if you go to prison always protect yourself during sex get yourself some boxing gloves Well that is I would have preferred if you didn't put that in your cock before you did what you did to me there But thank you One interesting thing that the cops discovered in their deep dive into the life of john list Was that the pious church man so concerned with the morality of america Had rented a p.o. Box for the sole purpose of ordering porno mags Of course Of course he did. They're all like this. You don't you don't think you think that only fans

Is making it just on the backs of liberal america. No liberal america's brook. You know who isn't the evangelists They are doing great out there. They're all over only fans You know how many times you see a guy with a toe for a head and one of those crisis my savior twitter bios Who's all night just being like i'm gonna shrug my fucking ass inside your ass I just don't know how to have sex I'm gonna suck my ass inside of your ass You want you woman you want you woman All right, I saw my very evangelical christian teacher at uh elder addos in steven's point wisconsin

And i made sure to make eye contact with him. I was underage and he shouldn't have been there And so i've kind of cancelled each other out no one spoke of it Other than the hemorrhoids in the glasses though knuckles moran and the fbi didn't really have much to go on Then less than a year after the murders An unknown arsonist doused the former list house in kerosene and burned it to the ground Destroying the last vestige of the list family in new jersey. Um, is there a house that was rebuilt on this burial ground? That's obviously haunt. Maybe maybe okay, but this is also why he destroyed the family photos Remember this is 1971. There is no facebook. There is no picture. They'd like the only way someone would actually have people communicate

But you know, I mean like they there is no There's no real way to like track somebody. So if you destroy the only physical evidence pictures totals Yeah, if you destroy those pictures You legitimately lose all trace of who you used to be as a human being and then it's also difficult for them to They don't have pictures of you. How do they spread the pictures to say like this guy murdered his family? right As far as where john lest went he was smart enough to leave the northeast entirely within days john had made it to colorado and soon bought a trailer near dimper for $1,500

Under the name robert p. Clark which robert. Clark was a dude. He knew in college Yes, and he assumed he would be caught within a week or two Okay, that's what he thought at first. He's like they'll come and get me But the most the main note that he kept hitting was how relieved he was and how now he just kind of felt like You know, he's eaten carbs. You know, I mean he pray love. He's having a great time. He's growing on his armpit air Not to and again, I have no pride if you live in a trailer That's just wonderful and there's a lot of great people who live in trailers and it's affordable living Love it, but isn't this exactly what he didn't want?

Wasn't his whole thing like I don't want to have economic peril and now he's in a trailer Which he thought his children couldn't handle it, but but he doesn't mind living a broke lifestyle He holds the line so hard his it's like a big ropey dick You know what I mean? He has that line so firmly inside of his He just really grabs it from the bottom of the shaft to the very tip of the line And he holds it There's only one person that has the moral strength to live in a trailer and not succumb to the devil His cock is the hammer and he is Thor. He's the only one that can wield it. You can touch his own penis. Okay

Well, John List laid low for months reading historical novels and the bible while he accumulated a bed a refrigerator and a stove slowly rebuilding a life of routines as Bob Clark eventually List got a job under the name Bob Clark as a night shift cook at a holiday in along interstate 70 Where people found him to be a friendly quiet man who flinched when anyone cursed pussy. Oh my god You can imagine someone being like these are the best eggs. I've ever had this is just incredible He was a he had a natural ability at being a cook. He

He crushed it. He was he was the only thing he was naturally good at He wasn't even naturally good at being an account. He was terrible at being an accountant He was promoted to short order cook almost immediately and then he was hired as a sous chef at a country club southwest at Denver And there he found that he could handle the pressure of a restaurant kitchen better than any But like there was a guy that worked in the kitchen with him and said I've never seen anyone able to handle the pressure that John List was able to handle or at least he kept calling him Bob Clark because he's like Bob Clark could handle it in fact There was one time where uh, they booked this huge table this big party

John List is trying to cook everybody's meal. They said well, I we accidentally ordered two little food We need one more meal So on the spot in the middle of all this John List made a new dish That ended up being so good that they put it on the menu called a chicken cappastrano Yep, he was so naturally gifted in cooking. Why couldn't he just do that with his family? Because that's not what I wake up every day when I can do. I hate eggs I hate salads. I hate milkshakes. I just do it because all of you thawning Maws all of you idiots love my food, but actually I'm an accountant

Yeah, sounds like he would be a perfect restaurant owner. He knows how to cook. He knows how to do the paper I'm an accountant. I don't it's a great movie with Ben Affleck But a horrible horrible way to live your life by 1977 that's exactly what he's dead He's like I can't do this chef thing anymore I wasn't born to be a chef even though he was born to be a chef. He thought I won't be the chef It's a great profession. Also. How many people do we now know that our chefs that were murderers? We got a hat and clerk. We got this guy. It's like being a chef was a bartender, which is kind of a chef for beer It's a chef for beer

I think that you could start calling them beer chefs Beer chef, I'll take it What's special today? Wombun light Yeah But in 1977 like I said, he he quit the one thing in life that he was actually good at to return to his original passion Accounting Marcus. It's the second thing. He was really good Actually, yeah, that's true

He was extraordinarily good at getting away with murder most people don't get away with murder and he got away with five of them Yeah, he should have done that more often If you could just monetize it Yeah, what you do is you join the Marines Well, he started another accountant consulting business that was largely a failure And was only kept afloat by a woman named Dolores Miller John List had met the recently divorced Dolores Miller at a Lutheran single social And although she wasn't really that into him, he was persistent and friendly and pretty soon

They were a couple and john had yet another woman from which he could leech Why every love story pre 2016 was he stalked me Five years He actually killed the guy I was dating and then I just gave in I just kind of gave in and just let him control me But the funny thing is I've been making his life miserable for the for 35 years

So isn't that nice and how it evens out But he actually it was strange to see at first I thought that their relationship was like idyllic like when they met But he already started the little seeds of getting mad as they started their little relationship because number one He's trying to get these fucking accounting businesses off the off the ground and they won't Go because he's not good at it like him. So he's immediately in financial trouble again Meanwhile, he's on the run right for murders. He's not even necessarily on the run He is at in place from the murders. He just moved to colorado and then just stayed there Yeah, he's not on the run at all. Wow. Yeah, and she had to keep floating him money

She had to float him money to keep all of the bullshit going and she started saying he started getting more and more irritable And more and more no the more money that he was taking from her. He was getting more irritable Yes, and because bob clark slowly becoming john list again. Oh, I see Soon john aka bob clark He was working another boring job as an office manager at a firm that made supermarket wrapping and packages Called the all packaging company and john was once again where he wanted to be By 1985 well over a decade after john had killed his entire family He and delores miller were married

And the next year john was fired from the all packaging company and it seemed as if the cycle was beginning anew Uh-oh, but this time john didn't have the resources to live the fake commuter life So he spent his days looking at the wanads while all of delores's money was pumped into getting the consultancy firm going It was while john was at home though that he got friendly with a neighbor named wander flannery Friendly i'll put in quotation marks. I'll put it spoke with each other. He's doing everything. He's doing okay. Just go on I'm sorry. He's just he's living the life. He tried to proclaim. He was against the whole time. He's holding the line All right, all right Well wander actually felt sorry for him because she saw I mean he would still get up even though he wasn't doing the

Fake commute he would still get up every day put on a suit and tie and then just sit around the house That's what i'm doing We weren't in a pandemic in 85. No, I mean other than hiv Hey, thank you for acknowledging that honestly somebody had to in the 80s Oh and wanted tried to dig into this weird little man's past john list was understandably evasive Saying only this about his previous life quote my first wife died. She was uh, very real It was uh, very tragic. How'd she die? What was the do you remember what the doctor said the diagnosis was or bullet fever? Yeah, she died 10 times a bullet fever

10 times a bullet fever. I didn't know that it was this is strange disease. What's some of the symptoms? Um, it's going Ah, no, don't ah, please stop beer my husband. I'm your wife. I don't I'm scared to stop stop stop to do that for a while then they just get real quiet Huh, I'll have to watch out for that one Then in february of 1987 Wanda picked up an issue of one of our four bears The first publication to put aliens cryptids ghosts and true crime into one supermarket ready package I'm talking of course about the weekly world news looking for you

But the weekly world is wonder reminds me a lot of the neighbor from Edward scissor hands. It was like one of those she's Real nosy. Yeah, and this is she's real nosy and then she starts because she doesn't she gets a good off vibe from john Immediately and so there's a person john list because he kept them I think assuming that he'll always kind of fade into the background, but she's like no I'm really interested in you john. Like I'm really wonder what's your thing because you're fucking weird Oh, everybody keeps talking about how normal bob clark is or how normal john list is we're actually he's essentially Of highly weird idiosyncratic man because this is also he also started doing the war games

They had to move apartments. He started from the trailer. They had to move into a two bedroom apartment The reason why they moved was that he could have space for his war board games Yeah, which is the truth and he started getting back into it. He started like this whole Bullshit again trying to relive the same exact. Yeah, they said in colorado There was he kept inviting like trapping guys to come over and be like yeah I just played the game and it would be an eight hour long fucking ordeal There was only one guy who ever came back a second time. I love it

You know true detective housewives. That would be a great show No, you get a housewife sniffing your set. Oh, you're done When wanda opened up that issue of weekly world news She read a story entitled the perfect crime Which detailed the investigation into the murders committed by the nefarious john list Now by this point john list was considered by the fbi to be a bit of a white whale A near genius who was even rumored to be at one point db cooper Because list car had been left at jfk right around the time of the cooper caper and because cooper and list

Kind of looked alike that kind of looked alike They also said they used to do jokes with each other the cops whenever they would go on vacation Like the john list story became such a non-entity like Everyone thought it was like the case was essentially over and no one could figure out where the hell he went And so when cops would go on vacation one running joke that they would do is they would send Postcards from wherever they were just being like having fun on the beach like sign john list Right, they would just do it as pranks. See that is the thing with weekly world news There were tidbits of truth great stories in there followed by little articles like our farts ghosts

Like there was always like that's what keeps it such a page turner Yeah, and then on the cover you've got a picture of bill clinton shaking hands with an alien Yeah, that was cool. And of course, we remember the submarine that had a bunch of aliens and a bunch of I'll always remember the the the devil cloud the devil Starting to think there's something in the clouds Trust these clouds But when wander looked at the picture of john list in the weekly world news all she saw was bob clark The ages lined up bob had a scar on his neck or list was also said to have one

And john list was described as an overly religious accountant with chronic money troubles. Well, yeah He didn't exactly stray too far from uh, mr. Listed either stayed in character Yeah, and so wander went to delores when john was out on a job interview and showed her the story in the weekly world news But delores who couldn't imagine that her bob could be anything but a boring old accountant She just laughed and said oh, yeah, bob's a mass murderer Uh, followed by delores talking about how yes, she does believe that farts are ghosts And she thinks there's a strong family lineage Uh, depending on the smell farts are just things we don't understand because we don't have the science yet. Absolutely

I met my cousin ernie. I remember I farted and I know for sure that was cousin ernie because he smelled just like that rhubarb pie But their relationship was also starting to deteriorate through him and delores Because delores and him would try to buy him clothes. I remember that one statement that they said it's loris She's like, what's the point of buying anything for you? You don't look good in anything. Whoa delores nailing it though Around the same time that list identity was being dismissed by his second wife Captain frank moronka in westfield came upon another possible avenue for finding john list moronka's boss got a hold of the people at america's most wanted

But we're told that the case was too old and the trail was too cold for the story to be of any use on their show And unsolved mysteries rejected it for the same reason. What but captain moronka was persistent And in 1989 he pitched the story in person to the producers of america's most wanted who finally agreed Now unsurprisingly john list was an avid viewer of america's most wanted and pretty much just watched the show every week To see if he to see if his story showed up. He knew he was going to be honored eventually Yeah, he was because partially is will I show up? Because I don't know if he wanted it, but there was also some sort of I think serial killers feel this very often mass murderers We know to you know secret little compartment inside of their minds. They want the credit

Well, and I it seemed uh like judging from what we've learned today It seemed like he thought he was going to get caught much earlier So maybe he was like when the hell is this gig gonna be up? I'm actually don't I don't like the laurist anymore. Can I just go to prison, please? And sure enough on may 21st 1989 John list saw his own face sculpted in a 3d likeness to show him older and paunchier Stare him back out from the television. Hey the laurist get in here. I'm on tv That night the show's hotline got 250 calls a third of which were the calls

They apparently got every episode from lonely people who just wanted to talk to someone But nestled in all that mess was a call from neighbor Wanda Flannery She left a short simple message saying here is an address John list lives at this address. He uses the name Robert P. Clark come get him Damn, all right, and within two weeks the FBI was on John list doorstep And John who had pretty much stayed put in Colorado for the last 18 years Raised his hands and surrender entirely unsurprised that things ended this way see television. Yes, it maybe gave row Maybe gave rise to fascism in america, but it also caught this guy

This one guy nice that was a consequence of uh different aspects of american life. Yeah, cool Now although you might think there was no way John's wife Dolores didn't know She said when questioned by the FBI that she didn't even know who John list was Adding that John couldn't be her husband because her husband was the nicest man in the world Yeah, gerbils used to be a great tipper I guess was he I don't know probably not. I just think in europe they don't tip I don't know why he said I don't know why he said fuck. I don't know why fucking said it will It's a good thing you went through the checks and balances and went through all the checkpoints in your head

And you came right out with a defensive goibles. I don't have checks and balances I have just an open card and path From my id to my mouth you got a lot better with it though But when bob clark was fingerprinted moments later His fingerprints match those that john lest had left with the westfield police 18 years earlier for the handgun registration. He never even fucking picked up Wow Still it took almost a year for john lest to drop the bob clark story

And even then he still tried pleading not guilty to the murders And one of the tactics that used to use in interrogations with him, which I think is really funny Is that you know, they keep being like are you you know, are you john lest and he'd be like, no, I'm bob clark I've always been and then they walk you and go john. They would say and then he'd look can he be like, yes He would respond to the name I guess I'm not that disciplined I guess I should have listened to mr. Ileano when he said to cry it up a character bio and stick with it Before all the scene work. I love the detectives that were just like what if we try this of course because they knew it was him

It is him whether he would stonewall him because you know, they'd chose like all right. Look bob clark does not exist before 1971 john lest Seizes to exist after 1971 your fingerprints match those of john lest It sounds like a you problem you are john lest it's gonna be a problem Oh, okay Dill despite the overwhelming evidence the defense tried arguing that john was not responsible for his actions

They said that john wasn't programmed to deal with overwhelming problems that he has steeped in old world values And his obsessive compulsive tendencies led him to the murders which in their opinion That's enough to let him off the hook Well, they truly just thought that ocd was just this horrible Mount like the like they try to make it like it was like an antisocial personality disorder kind of shit where it's like mostly from what I Have discovered is that ocd is a self punishing thing. Yeah, don't but it's not like I mean I understand having a family is probably extremely stressful and stuff

But like a lot of people have families and then don't kill them. It wasn't a lot of weak people Not no strong. I think it's actually stronger not to kill the family. Hey, man. It's a one six of another One is keeping people alive and one is murdering people one is Keeping them alive in heaven the other one's keeping them alive on earth Well, if you put it like that the defense even tried bringing helens syphilis and patty's interest in witchcraft into the mix Saying that these were the two things that drove john to the point of no return But thankfully the judge deemed both irrelevant I was a witch hunter

And as you can see exhibit eight exhibit eight, we've got yucky pussy. Let's just take a look at the yucky pussy Now you take a look at that yucky pussy and you tell me you don't want to kill your whole family Exhibit scene yucky pussy. All right, mr. Kissel. Thank you for your opening statements I have eight more. I have the whole alphabet of yucky pussy. We're gonna start the trial now. You're gonna have to be escorted out All right. Thank you for letting me talk Unpredictably john list was easily found guilty of five counts of murder and was sentenced to life in prison on april 12th 1990 When asked if he would do it all over again, though He said he wouldn't wow. He said he wouldn't growth is possible. You need to tell me people gonna change

So 1990 1990 we had a life. He lived a lifetime. Oh, yeah Time on the run could vote his time on the run could smoke. Oh, yeah Eighteen years this man got to live Well from what he said he didn't think he would get away with it for more than a week or two But when weeks passed and the murder still hadn't even been discovered He decided to just sit back and enjoy the freedom In fact, he said that after a while, he didn't even think about his former family or their murders Except on the anniversary of their deaths

But that day you could just see because you know that's they when he had like an extra glass of schnapps He would sit in that chair and just stare and just stare and just stare But then he was fine. I don't trust introverts for a reason. This is another one. Yeah, we're living in an introverts fucking world right now I know it's you guys keep saying that it's not that we don't like it any more than you do Marcus you're technically an introverted extrovert still yeah, I know introverts are I know that you are you're 70% introvert, but yeah that 30% allows you to talk 65% I've seen him out there I see him dancing out there. I know I've seen him dance. I've seen you see me drinking and dancing No, I'm your wedding when you were truly happy and that is true at the way and his family can dance anyway

The Texans are a crazy dance. I didn't expect it. They dance like motherfuckers You know, it's a beautiful wedding between the Mexicans and the Texans and then I was just sitting there like a midwestern being like looking at him I wish I could do that That's why I could never get married him. I'm horrified at the dance That's why I'm serious. I have nightmares of it. It's yeah, it's a dance You have nightmares of it. It's very easy. You just sway back and forth. No, it's on you really like No, everyone laughs at you. You don't have to have a dance

I would not well, I have eyes if I have eyes for someone they're gonna want to dance because they want to show me off Well, John List last I guess bullshit Well, John List, I mean he actually tried absolving himself one more time by co-writing a rambling Unedited manifesto that he called collateral damage. Oh my god, but nobody bought the story. No And so Jack yes, and so John List forever rejected by the corporate capitalist elite that he wanted so badly to join died in prison on March 21st 2008 a lonely relic of rigid moral hypocrisy Best left in the past. So 18 years of freedom and 18 years behind bars Yeah, man. This is I can't believe he died until Obama was elected. Yeah, he lived to be a very to be a very old man

He was almost he lived to see a Obama campaign Wow, which was him and his most dazzling He stands as an example of a family annihilator that is still very unique And the world of family annihilators are it's gets more and more complex because again as you see as you try to people So long still trying to wrap their minds around why do people do these quote-unquote extended suicides these like full-on like Families literally destroying and the most symbolic murder possible like just destroying themselves and any evidence of themselves and He actually had a lot more reasons why than others like if you look at other people who've done it

Like I could see more of like the what they say the livid heart the idea of like someone ramping their actual abuse physical abuse up until murder and that does happen more often But these stories and he's like oftentimes it's also a someone a partner on the side But it doesn't seem like he didn't have an affair or anything, right? No, he just was done being a daddy and when daddy says it's over then it's over for everybody. I guess All right. Well, thank you all so much for being with us on the John list part one and two fascinating story I don't know check in with your significant other make sure there's no guns for Communicate you got to communicate communicate and divorce is totally fine

Just don't be a married at all fucking just leave get on the box and go to another place Maybe people will be sad for a second, but everyone will get over it and they'll all be alive Everyone will heal. I promise you I promise you. All right, everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening. Um, let's see Do we have any housekeeping any clerical speaking of clerical things with john? Well, first I have to get my bullets then I have to get my alibi. No, I'm sorry. Are you gonna kill wendy? I said the quiet part out loud. Yes, say the We have weed coming weed is coming. That is very exciting. Well, we'll tell you a day soon

We will tell you a day. I know that is I uh this saturday. I have my civ six show on twitch very nice 230 ptsd Ptsd ptsd is a different thing. Yeah, that's um, that's on twitch.tv slash Are you that week that you have ptsd from civ six because if you go to like the military hospital with that kind of ptsd They're gonna just kill you. Yeah I'll die from the food. Yeah, um, then we have last stream on the left is coming back So this is our plan what we're going to do for now because the meeting that we're supposed to have with twitch hasn't happened yet And I have no fucking clue what it's gonna happen. It's not rushing I don't know if they like us very much. I don't think so, but we will find out we're supposed to find out

So until then this is our temporary This is what we're doing for now. This could be permanent too. We'll see. I don't know last stream on the left We'll be live 5 p.m. PST 8 p.m. EST and it's gonna be live for our patreon For our patreon subscribers, it will be live for so from 5 to 6 p.m You're going to get this is on psd. You're gonna get the show if your patreon If your patreon subscriber, you're gonna get a link to come see our show We think you're gonna see our show live, but then we're gonna post it vote free on youtube for you for anybody to see For free immediately either the day after or the next day for some reason I feel like you've made it confusing

But I do love it. I mean that's just a plan The plan is because we want because we want the show to be free as much as possible But we also you know we want to do something for our patreon subscribers. So that's what we're doing That's right. So of course you can give and uh subscribe to our patreon. Thanks you Thank you for everyone who has done that. So yes, absolutely the stream is back on patreon We won't be any and it is just gonna be us and you well marcus and I still have we still have free speech jail It's still marcus is actually the warden. I've been doing a pretty good job as a CEO. I don't know. You know having I don't have any clue how much weight lifting I've been doing

I've also been going to the legal room And oh really mr. Pan's room. Yeah, me and my muslim brothers are you're gonna see what we're gonna work on? You see my tiny hat? That I've been wearing? Honestly, that would be a great phase three for your life. You have to convert Um, all right, everyone. Yes. So we'll just keep you uh aware of of all the other changes and all the fun things that are happening and Again, second half of 2021. We're knocking on all the wood possible, but I really We are positive and we're gonna keep on moving for no matter what happens

We'll be together and we'll keep on trucking and plugging away I don't care if I have to do this fucking show on top of an empty 18 wheeler that we just drive around from town to town to town We could staple you on top of anything. Yeah, I can be glued Hail yourselves. Hail tatan. Oh hellgine. I'm a goose deletions everybody. Hail me Don't kill your family Amen, don't kill your family. What if you sit your family down and tell them you're not gonna kill them? Yeah, and just how and then they have to be thankful ask them instead of how they want to be buried Ask them how what dinner do you want me to make on saturday?

Yeah, although if my dad did sit me down and specifically tell me i'm not going to kill you That would make me suspicious Well, amen let dads have their fun. Yeah, that's that's dance psychology. They're allowed to do that This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors You can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listened to go to last podcast network.com