Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 466: Rodney Alcala Part I - Wanna See a Pretty Picture?

Episode Date: September 10, 2021

On part one of our Rodney Alcala series, we explore the brutal string of crimes that Alcala committed long before he became known as the Dating Game Killer.Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0

Ladies and gentlemen put your hands together we're back here it is the deflating game and we have our first contestant he is a tall glass of Bud Light and his favorite thing is yelling at a TV screen at a sports bar ladies and gentlemen put your hands together for contestant number one yeah I like cheese I like beer and what's your name my name is Laurie and I just got a couple of questions for you big old man you just smell big shoot Laurie now these are real questions from the dating game okay okay convince me you're sexy aggressive and harmless God almighty how could you be all three of those okay now tell me when we've been we've been

married for 50 years and now we're sitting on a park bench together and you start getting romantic how come oh baby you know I love how pigeons talk alright can we be done with this hey tell me one last one what football penalty are you mostly charged with on dates oh my god that's from the dating I'm gonna say pass interference because no pussy is safe when men gizzle around remember interception I don't know welcome to the last podcast on the left what a horrible position that you just put me in yep this boy I would never go on a dating game show dare I say it might make some someone a little crazy

blaming the dating game well it was not the dating game and I don't know I'm just telling you about my personal experience that I just felt and now I feel like I need to have revenge on everybody because I was put on the spot and I yes I know I came in here to record a show yes I know that my voice is being audio recorded yes but did I know we were gonna peel back the layers of the union to show the soul of the kiss you barely did you mean you you you've got you hit this level of agitation at the very the basic version of dating interrogation yeah how's dating going oh just so nice so nice alright everyone

go pack go today we are on to an episode that has been in the minds of everyone for many many years and I'm just so happy we waited this long to get to it because this story evidently from what I heard is pretty frickin disgusting so we shall get into it the lightheartedness is gonna ease up a little bit we are talking Rodney Alcala yeah that's shit all right thank you what you didn't hear is it kiss will try to say it three times but it is difficult and guess what Rodney Alcala Alcala who gives a fucking shit he's head thank God you have no last name once you're dead Rodney Alcala was an

American serial murderer who provably killed 10 women and children between 1971 and 1979 although his murdering career may have and probably did start much earlier than what we know this is one of those subterranean serial killers because you know how many times we've talked about in the past about how oh we in our minds a lot of times serial killers are fairly obvious coming towards you right like your chase covered in blood Jeffrey Dahmer herky-jerky dancing in the club late at night like there are things I think tell a serial killer like kind of transmit the signal of the serial people get the

spidey sense that someone might not be necessarily right yes but Rodney Alcala minded does not have any of those okay now although Rodney is most often called the dating game killer owing to his appearance as a contestant on the popular game show in 1978 a more accurate name for Rodney might be the picture killer hmm see Alcala was not a berserker like Ted Bundy he was not a sneak-up and shoot killer like David Berkowitz nor was he stumble around nor was he a hunt-and-kill animal like Andre Chick-a-tillo instead Alcala was a wolf in sheep's clothing using his good looks and charm to lure potential victims

especially the children with a simple question want to see a pretty picture again again and again how many times have we said throughout the years of last podcast on the left no one is a photographer no there is there's maybe four again if you just meet somebody who says they are they're not no no and the pretty picture is just gonna be their cock after a rubber band has been tied around it for 10 hours you'd be like look at it be like it's kind of purple in it like thank you for showing me that pretty picture does that happen to you no but I'm just saying at no point is the picture actually pretty and get you

with the baby is a cabbage that's I feel like that's more predatory I met a woman randomly and said you want to see a fun picture and I pulled a crumpled and that is picture out of my fucking basketball shorts if you do it okay I understand now as we'll see Alcala was just as if not more scary than a break-and-enter killer like Richard Ramirez but since Alcala never admitted to any of the murders and therefore never talked about them he never quite caught the attention of the media like some of the other famed serial killers dead but that's kind of what makes him scary right the lack of showing his

ass speaking to that point Alcala honestly seems like the type of guy that's just too scary to talk about a killer with no real victim type no age bracket and no preference on where he commits the murders in addition to being nomadic and inhumanly brutal Alcala beat strangled raped molested and burned he used his nails his fists his hands and hardware he ripped he mangled he mutilated and then posed the bodies afterwards in such horrifying ways that they rival the crime scenes of Danny Rowling and they were made all the more shocking by virtue of being done in public and that was actually the intro

of the dating game but he's the type of guy we Marcus and I this is maybe uncouth but Marcus and I talked a little bit during our production called about the concept of some serial killers are in it for an explosive reaction that they get from their crimes and they long to be caught like Jeffrey Dahmer even in his own way John Wayne Gacy even though he did his best to hide it just the idea of keeping all of these bodies inside of your own home eventually you know for a fact so even if it's deep deep compartmentalized deep down someone's gonna figure this shit out right but Rodney Alcala is what you'd call a

career killer he is the type of person very similar to BTK that would have gone on to continue to kill for as long as possible and the way you do that is that you don't talk about your crimes so unlike other serial killers that we've talked about in the past about how their numbers are probably exaggerated because of they they talked shit so much after they've been caught somebody like Rodney Alcala probably has many more victims than the one he was caught wow that's so much more scary see Rodney's only consistent MO was in how he lured his victims to their doom Alcala was a photographer of some small talent and

using his camera and his charm he was able to both isolate his victims and lower their inhibitions by appealing to their vanity all without using any force furthermore Alcala was also operating at the same time and in the same places as some of the most notorious serial killers of the 70s completely by coincidence which ended up muddling investigations on opposite coasts or it's all the lead what do you mean it's all the lead the lead points happening at this time period and in the two locations three locations he killed people not even three he probably had dozens of locations because he was

constantly going from New York to LA for years Henry I've been eaten lead for that's 25 years and I have never even thought about hurting anyone honestly mostly it is really really nice to have you here dr. Fauci what all this amounts to is that Rodney Alcala's true body count is undoubtedly far far higher than the 10 that were provable and after we're done with this series you might join us in thinking that Alcala may have been one of the most prolific and dangerous serial killers in American history he certainly know and get us nice nice hair though I do have to give him some credit on that so even when he's

got what's his name's hair he's got the guy from Queens hair Freddie Mercury no no Brian May yeah he does have Brian May hair without a doubt so even when he got Rodney even when he got to prison he didn't start bragging he didn't start going never that is really rare okay never he was in prison for 50 years and never once even come came close to copping to any crime I'm sure we'll get to it but was it guilt no he's the type of person that these crimes are his secrets and also his prizes the things the memories that he has are sacred to him he we don't like making guys out to be super scary on last

podcast on the left like because the the whole idea is that mostly mostly these people are ineffectual dorks don't fucking do anything yep Ronnie Alcala is just one of those like a Richard Ramirez or Ted Bunny who is actually very very dangerous it's the type of person that is you can be very easily fooled by because he's tall he even got by the producers of the dating game but yeah because he viewed it that is private okay his his murders were and what he did was for him it was what he did and he does that I think that in probably in some way shape or form deep inside he viewed that if you told everybody the

details of his crimes it would sully the sacredness of the act for himself like a macabre mental in Ganga perhaps yeah something like that yeah but I think probably the reason why he didn't talk about the crimes ever is I think on some level there was something in his mind that said maybe I'll get out maybe I'll get away with it maybe because that's how much killing was a part of his DNA because that's really all that mattered to him the only thing that mattered to him was killing that's it everything in his life all informed that urge yeah but yeah that I think that's why he never talked about it because he

thought that maybe maybe maybe he can get away with it all right but before we get into the story which is gonna get very brutal very quickly let's acknowledge our source today we've got the dating game killer by Stella Sands which is another well researched meat and potatoes true crime narrative now one of the things that's most baffling about Rodney Alcala is that despite the severity and sheer volume of his crimes his childhood was bereft of abnormal tragedy or abuse and in this he's like Dennis Rader aka BTK who also seemed to have come out of the womb as a fully formed predator and stealthily so because

as a little kid he didn't do any of the tell-tale shit that said that he later on he'd live a life of crime so he was kind of this picture-perfect little boy which again it's it's some form of does it lay in wait or is it always there yeah Rodney Alcala was born Rodrigo Jacques Alcala Buqua on August 23rd 1943 in San Antonio one child amongst four others man we can't get his head out because of the bowtie my goodness you change his last name into something less French make this pussy wetter oh my goodness that's a horrible doctor thing to say as a youngster he got good grades he was well liked and was never

reported to have any significant problems whatsoever the one trauma of his childhood was when his father abandoned the family when Rodney was 12 but that sort of thing has been happening every single day since the concept of family was established men have been trying to not have the concept of family for a long time and the sort of sustained trauma that usually produces a monster like Alcala commonly starts far earlier in the killer's life now after Rodney's father abandoned the family never to return the remaining Alcalas moved to Los Angeles there Rodney dated took piano lessons lettered in cross country

and joined the yearbook staff showing no signs that there was a murderous rage bubbling up inside yeah the sign is right there it's called the yearbook staff yeah anyone who's on the yearbook staff yeah okay there's also again a lot of people in your class a lot of people in your class and also like all of the pictures you get everyone's pictures you get all the insight you're behind the scenes you see at the sausage is made your book the staff it's gets disgusting you're so mean and they're exacting and they're all like I control the the purview of this entire school in the history of this school they choose what pictures are

shown they choose how to make fun of you of the school why didn't I get a picture of me wrestling in the yearbook mm-hmm they don't want to have all the people rise up against the giant amongst them very funny I wonder if I'll get passed at the cellar wow such great jokes here after high school Rodney joined the army to become a paratrooper oh but ended up serving his time as a clerk which was something he was quite good at unlike other serial killers who spent time in the service yeah I actually did a little bit of research into this connection right because we've had many serial killers pop up that have military

experience there was a draft or something yeah they were kind of for yeah he's he joined in the late late 50s early 60s he wasn't drafted but yeah I mean you got Leonard Lake you got David Berkowitz you got Dennis Raider Dennis Raider and I was looking at this and they all kind of say the same thing the studies that we're reading which I mean most of it makes sense which is the idea of disengagement the concept of you create a a killable human in your mind like you basically that's why they have like their targets are just silhouettes of human beings so you stop you stop thinking them as people and it's that's

one thing but I don't think it explains it all because the one you would do how most people come back for more while they are scarred a lot of times they don't come back wanting to kill more and more I mean I think a sniper probably has less PTSD than someone who was to work in the clerical section I got all the paper where some snipers are very happy yeah one thing that came up that I thought was interesting is he said the one common thread about people that sign up for the military is they said they score low on agreeable meters and I was like what does that mean yeah what does that mean I don't know what that means that's

what they said they apparently they said that people that join the armed forces are on the whole less agreeable but don't they have to all agree to get their asses kicked for like 10 years in basic and then go yell that all the time I think it takes a highly independent spirit that then gets funneled into something but it's weird because how does that also like how does that create a serial killer I'm not certain okay it doesn't at all not even close because if you look at the serial killers that we've covered who have military service the number of serial killers who saw combat is zero yeah seriously zero but

there was what I remember there was one who was the guy that said that he I can't remember which serial killer that like made up a whole bunch of fucking stories he might have been in combat but Leonard Lake wasn't it he wasn't it like most of them worked in like radar or fucking clerical shit like the Barkowitz never saw combat Leonard Lake never saw combat Dennis Raider never saw combat he was stationed in Japan and actually spent most of his fucking time stalking Japanese women like off base so there was a different kind of training I suppose so it really was no that's where Dennis Raider learned it was

stalking women in Japan the world's fattest ninja but that's why so but that it just that is the only thing that Rodney Alcala has that you can compare to other serial killers as being like I guess something ticked him off or something happened and it happened when he was at the military when Henry says that what he is referring to is thank you for your service thank you for your service yes one and all thank you for your service well things started breaking down in 1962 when Rodney was informed that his father had died at the age of 55 even worse Rodney discovered that the elder

Alcala had remarried and started a new family since leaving his first brood that should show though man if daddy be fucking then baby can be fucking if daddy fucking at 55 right that means when I'm a big baby when I'm 55 I can still be fucking sure he died at 55 but yes well about a year later Alcala arrived at his mother's home unexpected having gone AWOL from the army this was especially surprising because Rodney had been stationed at Fort Bragg in North Carolina and that meant that he'd hitchhiked all the way to Los Angeles and this is actually kind

of creepy because he just shows up just being like hey mom what's up and you don't they don't know why he came home he had no reason and apparently in the army what he was just kind of doing where he was just not doing stuff yeah like he kind of went through this period of time where they'd go like they I guess it revelry when you're supposed to go and like meet up with all the other boys and sit around and gets measured for heights and everybody to compare shoes right he was supposed to go and he just kind of sit and they'd be like private let's go and he says that he just look at him just be like mmm mmm the day the day ago

rest of the day the day I sit so I think I need some hot time he needs a little hot time very Keenan Thompson from SNL he's just there Rodney eventually turned himself in for going AWOL but he was hospitalized instead of jailed well according to his superiors as Henry said Rodney had suffered a nervous breakdown in the weeks leading up to his desertion and upon the routine examination following this mental breakdown army psychiatrist discovered some disturbing and surprising things he eats steak with a spoon even though Rodney has shown no signs of being anything but stable as far as we know

he was discharged from the army after being diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder chronic and severe do you think he just sat in the chair upside down did like Robin Williams did when he auditioned for Mork and Mindy did yeah they're like oh why would need to cast anybody else there's an alien right here wow nowadays you get kicked out for that yes indeed they'd hate that but do you think that I don't know what happened in that interview because it's really fucked up right because no one talks about him having antisocial disorder any any any fucking blip on the screen well let me get into it a little

bit I mean anti-social antisocial personality disorder is basically the serial killer's disease sure but and you know it's like not all people who have APD or serial killers but all serial killers have APD to some extent isn't it a big ol like umbrella term too for like it's pretty umbrella yeah like it's one of you mean he's a mean guy and so they just give you APD yeah well I mean it's characterized by a long-term pattern of disregard for the rights of others with a weak or non-existent conscience coupled with the mean baron in that awful

it's terrible I don't know if that deserves it I got antisocial personality disorder you can see I held my jacket together with pins you are greatly not understanding what we're talking about in a medical sense this is not someone in an anti-anti-social sweater you know what I'm talking about all this is coupled with the history of impulsive or aggressive behavior but Rodney hadn't yet exhibited

any of the overt symptoms that usually flash a red light for antisocial personality disorder and this is really what made Rodney Alcala so dangerous while many serial killers can't help but attract attention towards themselves even outside of their murders Alcala like BTK could go under the radar wow that's so scary yeah he just did they did the tests which I'm sure like it's I mean it's not the type of test where here's a baby stab it yeah that's not the right answer fuck you'll give me two options

yeah okay we're gonna give you the question again with the two options you know for a fact stab it is the wrong answer here's the baby stab it or feed it step I meant feed it you feed it here suck on my tits wrong answer somehow the right answer but yet the wrong answer

well really the only reason why Alcala ever got caught is that he focused on the victims that garner the most attention in America pretty white women and little white girls oh my god I didn't know all the kids stuff yeah really did you're walking chest first into it great great it begins and ends with it relatively soon after he was discharged from the army he would attempt his first

murder of the latter can I also have a one other question before we get into gold star territory do you think that in this meeting when they have this they kicked him out for antisocial personality disorder do you think it's one of those things that they also could have labeled him with something just so they could kick him out of the army because he was bad at it like is that go that far or is there other things that they say don't they just want you to stay there and then they punish you a whole bunch and then that's kind of fun for them too but if you're like touching guys dicks while they sleep and stuff a lot of times

unless everybody's doing it one big daji chain they try I think that the most of the time they say like he's suffering from exhaustion or like something like that they just put you in jail yeah they just put you in jail because he'd gone AWOL by this point and it's just and they just fucking yeah that's just if they think like oh you're just not good at it and you ran away you're going to jail really yeah yeah dude you're talking about some of us aren't supposed to be soldiers man no that's why you didn't volunteer to go they have not been recruited I'm here to choreograph the summer play oh my goodness

all right and just last point before we really get into the deep type do you think he didn't talk about his crimes because Ted Bundy didn't talk about killing the girl do you think it was because it was child related and if he fucking mentioned he killed children off with his head in prison no because we'll get into that we'll get into that immediately why that doesn't hold up okay after recovering from his nervous breakdown in his mother's home in Monterey Park California Alcala returned to his old charming self and was accepted to California State University where he graduated with the bachelors in fine art focusing on

photography in 1968 Cal State's not fucking around too Cal State's a legit that's the thing about Rodney Rodney Alcala is also a legally intelligent person like his his IQ that I mean I know IQ is like whatever but still his IQ is 140 when he took the test at Cal State he's highly intelligent the next fall motivated by some mysterious reasoning Rodney Alcala tried killing for the first time but like I said since Alcala is never admitted to any murders he might have been killing long before this one this is just the first one that he got caught on the nature of the crime it does sound like someone

already in mid-escalation okay on a nice day in September Rodney Alcala we hear gold star warning that's me that's me jingling a gold star at you like you're a dog and this is the first of three in this episode okay let's just go ahead and say this is a gold star episode this is just full-on gold star episode okay on a nice day in September Rodney Alcala was driving his car down Sunset Boulevard when he noticed an eight-year-old girl skipping down the sidewalk he pulled over stuck his head out the window and learned that the little girl's name was Tali Shapiro using the oldest trick in the book Alcala

offered her a ride to school saying that he was a friend of her parents now this didn't convince Tali but when Alcala said he had a pretty picture to show her she hopped in the car now the only thing that saved Tali Shapiro's life was that a good Samaritan named Donald Haynes was also driving along Sunset Boulevard and saw that a man was obviously trying to convince a little girl to get into his car and what's weird is that she was staying at the Chateau Marmont which also has like a history of weird shit going on so this whole this whole area is like vaguely shady as it is yeah after she got in and they drove

off Donald tailed them to Alcala's apartment on DeLong Pre Avenue where he watched them both walk inside and sensing that all of this was very wrong he called the police and told them the whole story asking hey can you just check on this so I can fucking sleep tonight what do you mean in ruin that little girl's audition this is Hollywood oh my goodness unfortunately though the LAPD doesn't exactly jump on situations that only have the possibility of being bad so when the cops showed up knocking on Rodney's door some time had passed upon hearing the loud banging Alcala popped his head out the window and told

officer Chris Camacho to give him a second because he'd just gotten out of the shower when Rodney didn't open the door and when he stopped communicating altogether officer Camacho broke inside immediately Camacho saw that there were piles of lewd photographs of young girls all over the room and a fresh trail of blood was leading from the living room to the kitchen when Camacho ran to see where it led he found Tali naked in a pool of her own blood in the time between their arrival and officer Camacho's Alcala had strangled beat raped and bashed in the skull of Tali Shapiro finally he'd lain a heavy metal bar across her neck as the

slow instrument of death oh my god presumably Alcala was watching her slowly choke to death when officer Camacho showed up this is what I'm talking about with an escalated approach if this isn't his first crime he thought about this for a long time because what he know you're right he seems mid game here yes and also the pictures because he already had hundreds of pictures so he's already been these pictures he took or were these published pictures his pictures always pictures he took oh lord and so we now know that this is not the this is definitely I mean my mind not the first

time right but I think so too but he's very similar to BTK which I think is what makes him hyper dangerous because this is the thing is that he does not kill quickly it is a long progressed period and he does the choke and release choke and release yes instinctively Camacho removed the bar from Tali's neck and checked her pulse only to find that she was still alive but just barely Alcala however had run out the back and was long gone yeah cuz he had to make a choice he saw the guy jumpy he so basically saw him jump out the back window and he's like I could either get this girl out of this apartment or I could go after the

guy yeah it shows right he chose correctly save little girl's life of course and then Rodney had the very difficult decision of like do I leave or do I stay with all my pictures my pictures back in the day there's no I cloud there's no cloud oh my god what a horrible scene Tali eventually regained consciousness but after she relearned how to walk oh my family quit their jobs and moved to Mexico while Tali mercifully still maintains that she remembers none of what happened after arriving at Alcala's apartment and she'll talk about it she's been on documentaries like there's a

Rodney Alcala documentary I think CBS dead that she talks about she just started talking about it cuz she didn't talk about it for years cuz because we'll see Rodney Alcala had a hard time staying in jail yep yeah cuz I'm like this is all before the dating game right oh way before okay again producers out there just triple check make sure every contestant is never killed their girl we'll find out dude that's the that's the poll have you seen F boy Island dude this was a decade before the dating game oh my god okay well concerning Alcala after fleeing the scene it became evident that he could no longer stay in Los

Angeles at least for the time being so as was possible in 1968 he moved across the country to New York City where he applied and was accepted to NYU under the false name of John Burger man I couldn't even get a pass to go visit NYU also for being a supposed high-intellectual John burger Johnny burger hey my name is John fish taco Johnny is a creative welcome to NYU Lady Gaga killed a roommate between that and Tom Cruise fish fucking I think you have a lot of a lot of opinions up there mr. She definitely is dangerous woman incredible artist great from 1968 to 1971

Alcala attended classes worked as a security guard to pay his tuition reportedly worked well in group film projects and in his first brush with an infamous killing took classes taught by Roman Polanski just before Sharon Tate was murdered I wonder what they talked about yeah they could go out and troll for the same girl yeah that's weird because you can almost see the friendship happening where they both grabbed for the same 12 year old girl and they look at each other like funny I was gonna harm that young innocent person and you want to

call me Rodney the names Johnny burger Johnny burger Johnny burger of course and my name is Roman Roman pierogi Roman pierogi well every summer starting in 1969 though Alcala worked as a counselor at a drama and arts camp for girls in New Hampshire right no no no right dude nothing happened there he was known as the most popular counselor to all the girls and was considered to be a natural born even brilliant teacher by all his bosses he taught there for three years can I say my belief system is is that he

did that as training I think that if to speak to people he did it as human training I think that he wanted to put himself and because how many times these guys talk about this it's a self-challenge where they go in and like guys who lead double lives for a long time like BTK I can guarantee it's very similar with the BTK story where his he gets off on hiding in plain sight it's a part of an extended fantasy and I think it's also he's trying to graduate because his game really is to lure people in using nonviolent means that's that's part of the jolt is tricking people and it's one thing to trick

it's a pussy it's please a pussy so he can't fucking confront somebody for he wants to trick you so that he'd get you the in with the least amount of hassle mm-hmm but it's one thing to trick a child and another thing altogether to trick an adult yeah and he's trying to figure out how do you trick adults like or at least older girls you know these are all like late teenagers but in 1971 Alcala returned to his murderous ways or perhaps a more appropriate thing to say is that 1971 is the first time that Rodney can be linked to a murder and while we don't know exactly how it went down we can extrapolate from other

murders to recreate a possible timeline see Rodney Alcala going as John Berger was known during his time in New York City as a guy who approached women on the street and offered to photograph them sometimes then in there and sometimes at a second more private location we talk about we talk about privilege a lot in this country and then rightfully so my tall privilege that's about handsome privilege because if you look like someone who could take a picture of you and make whatever the fact that was like a plausible thing for someone to be like yeah sure you see what kind of guy would like to have a

picture taken from it's very unique that's how it is yes that's how it is handsome guys are not to be trusted and most likely this is how Alcala approached TWA flight attendant Cornelia Criley and this is all based on the massive amount of photos of women that were in just this situation that were later found in Alcala storage locker in Seattle that's what points us again towards he's done this many many many many times yeah so after Rodney disarmed Cornelia and made her feel comfortable he probably offered to take more photos in a private location and in this case that location was Cornelia's apartment and then from

there he went on to fund and start American apparel well probably thinking him charming and maybe good-looking like a lot of women did when they met Rodney she invited him up to her apartment and we know that she invited him because there was no sign of forced entry and Rodney as far as we know never coerced potential victims with the threat of violence once there Rodney most likely did take some pictures of her but eventually Cornelia began to either slowly or quickly realize that she'd made a mistake inviting this stranger into her home when Cornelia's body was found days later her

face had been severely beaten deep bite marks were found on her breast she'd been sexually molested a stalking was tied around her neck and her bra had been stuffed in her mouth Jesus by the time the garment was removed from her mouth by investigators rigor mortis had set in which fixed her mouth in a permanent terrified howl and since no one had seen Cornelia with Rodney and since forensics were comparatively primitive in 1972 cops never even came close to the man who was bopping around New York under the name of John Berger as a result Alcala wasn't linked to the crime until 2011 wow DNA from saliva

samples taken from the bite marks put Rodney in the room a lot of his a lot of his crimes are going to be but we'll even talk about this at the end of the next episode when we do the second episode is that there are databases of the pictures that he put out much like they did with Samuel Little because again they're still piecing together how many people he might have murdered the detectives in Los Angeles had not forgotten the attempted murder of Tali Shapiro and they'd spent three years trying to track down Rodney Alcala finally they convinced the FBI to add their suspect to the top 10 most wanted

list well luckily for the cops two girls attending the summer camp where Rodney was celebrating his third year saw the wanted poster in a post office yeah and immediately recognized the man they knew as Mr. Berger as fugitive child rapist and attempted murderer Rodney Alcala they're like the first ever true crime fans in the wild at the first web because it was apparently the two girls went they were like let's go they wanted to scare each other with the top 10 wanted less so they're just like let's go look at the papers and see all the criminals let's go look oh my god red wine only go in there but like I'm

love carbs and murders and then they looked at these fucking all of the the lists and they're like that's mr. burgers that is like such that is if it wasn't so disgusting it's kind of the beginning of the new Goonies or Steven Spielberg film like it's so that yeah you know as a kid don't you always think because of goosebumps all real stein you always think your teachers a zombie or something they're child rapist that was a rough I mean that's where you get your friends together this is a summer camp version of the burbs yeah sure but the burbs was lighter or some levity yeah that Tom Hanks Tom Hanks wasn't in this

but these girls called the cops and within a short period of time Alcala was arrested and his fingerprints were matched to the crime scene in his apartment back in Los Angeles but when it came time for the trial Polly Shapiro's family somewhat understandably refused to return to Los Angeles to testify this is one of those constant things that pop up with kids that are the victims of these types of crimes because the parents were like they didn't want her to relive her trauma there has to be another way well that's the thing I guess the prosecutor here just couldn't fucking be bothered because they went for the sure

thing and arranged a peddling plea deal and this sounds like extraordinarily lazy prosecuting because fucking remember Officer Camacho saw Alcala in the apartment just before he discovered the crime scene and that's not even to mention the fact that it was Rodney Alcala's apartment sir mr. Alcala Alcala whatever it is sir you've been Alcala sure you've been sentenced to 15 years of reality television oh god they're looking at my social media and also Donald you know the the guy that called the cops in the first place he could identified Rodney Alcala he saw him take this little girl into an

apartment but where was he did they not call him the lazy fucking prosecuting man this is one of those that you do prosecute it's hard because they know it's not hard this is a total fuck-up okay yeah this is an extremely large fuck-up Alcala was allowed to dodge the attempted murder charge and instead pled guilty to child molestation which garnered an indeterminate sentence of one to ten years now what indeterminate meant was that the parole board who had no real understanding of the full scope of the crime they could declare the criminal rehabilitated and set him loose whenever they fucking felt like it and

while this might work just fine for safe you know kid who makes a mistake sure fucking terrible idea for someone like Rodney Alcala and was there no registry at this point for sexual predators was when he I don't remember or they just gone it's weird we talk about all the time not only I talked about the time about how there was okay the back in the day it was just like child molesting was like not that big of a crime for some reason there was like they didn't really look at it as very seriously I think because there was a prevailing I'm just like basically seriously the Cuomo defense I'm just I'm a dad look

how long my lap is like it is strange where you wonder like because they just didn't take the crime very seriously I wonder if it has the idea that it has to do with the idea that kids they feel like they won't remember shit or that they're less than people because they're not an adult yet they can't go to war yet and die for the country maybe but I think it was also with a lot of people like child molestation used to be a lot more prevalent than it is now a lot of people seriously did see a lot of people seriously did say like I was molested and look at me I'm fine and don't mind I don't forget truly shame oh yeah it was

the same thing with people who were raped the victimhood that comes after the victimhood they just keep it under the rug that's probably why tally's parents didn't go because you keep bringing it up because she said it's a family shame it's an embarrassment it was totally asked backwards she specifically said they acted like it didn't happen she got home and then they acted like it didn't happen and then they just tried to move forward that's probably not gonna help you move forward I gotta deal with it by August of 1974 just a little over two years past sentencing a prison psychiatrist declared that Rodney

Alcala was quote considerably improved yeah but you know it could start with him raping an almost murdering a girl so considerably improved still is not really good listen I haven't bought candy in a year yeah you know what candy does I know which is considerably improved from the days when you used to order Chinese food and they'd send you four sets of utensils and now I'm down to three do you think they assume the fourth member of family just died of diabetes no I think that they assume that it's just one person that are trying to be nice well after the prison psychiatrist said he was considerably

improved Rodney Alcala was released and required to register as a sex offender in Monterey Park California where he moved back in with his mother within and that's what I mean by you know earlier when you ask like you know is he just trying to hide the you know is he just trying to hide the crime no he went to prison as a child molester okay for two years within months of his release Rodney not surprisingly tried killing again in much the same way he tried to kill Tolly Shapiro this time Rodney was cruising Huntington Beach in a station wagon when he spotted a 13-year-old girl waiting for her school bus again

Alcala asked her if she wanted to see a pretty picture and again the girl known only as Julie she climbed into the car under the promise that Rodney would just be given her a ride to school this is where today's generation maybe they are more safe they'd be like no I don't want to see a fucking picture but this time Rodney went by the name of John rolled or maybe it's Rowell's it's either way older it's like roll a doll and when he drove past Julie's school without slowing down she started yelling and tried jumping out of the moving vehicle Rodney in response grabbed her and held her until they reached a secluded

location near some cliffs off the Pacific Coast Highway after stopping he forced her to walk with him until they reached a private location and there he made her smoke a joint before embarking on the beginnings of a rape and possible murder thankfully though before things got deadly or even violent an angel of a park ranger showed up investigating the weed smell oh man technically I would be mad about this if he didn't stop at your fucking rape and murder you know what I mean he's just smoking weed in the park where else does smoke weed I am just a park ranger bear oh I smell marijuana oh my god or something far worse you're

gonna have to let that young girl go give me that joint Rodney tried lying by saying we you say they were just taking a break from a hike yeah I always smoke a joint with a 12 year old in the park but Julie yelled that she'd been forced there and wanted to go home and not knowing what to do the ranger just arrested both of them because of the weed wait a second we've got fucking handcuffs we didn't do it for arrested moose what does a park ranger have handcuffs for well for people smoking weed because you're a bear you should be able to just frighten people by your presence I've got a series of handcuffs I'll put the

big handcuffs on the big man and I'll put the little handcuffs on the girl I just feel like with everything made out of wood well Julie was let go immediately but after doing a background check it was found that Alcala was out on parole for child molestation okay time to put him back in the clique charged with sale of marijuana and kidnapping and he was sent back to prison probably for the marijuana charge mostly honestly actually probably was he was out within a couple years declared reformed he's reformed again again yeah again you're right even though he kidnapped a young girl three months after being let out of

prison no at this time but this time though your honor I'm gonna say number one honestly you're right number two I will never smoke weed again not the problem you're right weed for me is over totally reformed now to give you an idea just how charming Rodney Alcala could be he convinced his parole officer to give him permission to roam the country freely despite the fact that Rodney had tried killing one little girl and he kidnapped another months after being released listen I talked to Rodney he's got it out of his system done with it oh my listen to me listen you know for a fact look at me you look at me you

look if you could see a little fuel gauge on me that had child blessing juice in it you'd say it's that empty once you roam free once the okay was given Alcala went to San Francisco where he met Pamela Lamson at Fisherman's Wharf all we know is that they left together and Pamela's mutilated body was found on a Marin County hiking trail soon after oh my god after that murder Rodney left California with the blessing of his parole officer and returned to New York City in July of 1977 just a month before David Berkowitz was arrested for the son of Sam Murders son of Samson full swing right now wow on July

13th the day of the historic 1977 blackout Alcala approached a socialite named Ellen Hoover who just happened to be the goddaughter of Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Junior this woman was fucking connected wow well from what friends later said Ellen hover found this photographer going by the name of John Berger again to be charming and flirty and after he pressured her into a lunch date she accepted Ellen hover disappeared completely on the day of the date and no one would know what happened to her for almost a year now the only reason why we know that this is one of Rodney's was because Ellen had the

name John Berger written in her appointment book on the day she disappeared interestingly though it was thought at the time that Ellen might have been another son of Sam victim because she had long dark hair and they still didn't really know anything about the actual killer himself no but while the NYPD had the serial killer part right the investigation wouldn't zero in on Alcala for a very long time but even while the cops tried to track down the mysterious Mr. Berger Alcala had already left New York City to escape the heat of a high-profile victim and he was on his way back across the country to Los

Angeles when he claimed another victim yeah you get out of my town okay you're going to come back here all right here you go back to Los Angeles with your shorts this is New York City baby and it's not a single change in season and I could barely I could barely move it's going through my body right now it's like oh it's like Stalin grand or something they could have just caught Berger with by laying a bunch of hamburgers out and directing them towards the police precinct oh it's so innocent hamburgers treasure for me see one man's burgers is another man's burgers we got another one 28 year old

Christine Thornton with six months pregnant and had just left her boyfriend when she crossed Rodney's path in Wyoming a picture of Christine looking happy and comfortable was found in Rodney's storage locker years later and Rodney most likely killed her moments after the picture was taken it's also interesting that his storage locker was in Seattle which is the other serial killer capital of the world I actually just saw this I didn't know that actually more serial killers came out of Seattle than any other city in the 1970s wow from Thornton's dead body he took earrings earrings would become Rodney's

favorite trophy to take from victims and when that fucking storage locker was discovered after his arrest investigators found a bag containing a disturbing number of them well once back in Los Angeles though Rodney walked into the offices of the Los Angeles Times and brazenly applied for a typesetter position under his real name which by this time was attached to two serious crimes against children exactly what we're looking for they're looking for but despite having been on the top 10 most wanted list and despite his conviction for child molestation and despite his parole violations for

making a little girl smoke weed after he kidnapped her and despite being registered as a sex offender Rodney got the job I'm starting to think these journalists don't do a lot of research the hiring practices are pretty yet the hiring practice of the Los Angeles said not back no background checks HR is more militant than the US military the fact he got through HR this is back before HR I don't know what you'd call this but also when it comes down to it taking a picture is hard guys so hard and it's so hard to find somebody that could take a picture where everybody stays in a picture it wasn't 1760 where you got

one shot at it you wasn't hired as a photographer he was hired as a typesetter and he was kind of he was a little bit gruntier that's where he put the janitor's in the executive branch a little bit for the alcohol was known around the office mostly as a charming hard-working individual who casually shared stories about running into famous people in Greenwich Village and he was able to do so in a way that made him appear cool instead of desperate very good at name dropping yeah so this one time I was taking a piss in a bush you wouldn't believe it I was pissing on a very fancy show wouldn't you believe it was the

incredible Richard Burton wow yes yes Richard Burton was there and I was peeing on him and I couldn't have been more great well what a great story from the weird guy in the basement but there was another side to Rodney Alcala at the Los Angeles Times this wasn't even something that was going on outside of work this is in the office this behavior was written off insanely as oh he's just an avant-garde person Rodney would show off his portfolio of photographs to co-workers and that portfolio was full of pictures of naked little girls again just imagine he looked like Milton from office

see my collection of my frozen angels so everyone was just looking at these pictures like that's a very artistic picture of pedophilia there thank you Rodney this is fun well I mean it's a thing Rodney Alcala was a good photographer if you look at his pictures there's what you're taking pictures of doesn't it this is an incredible picture of naked girls body well that's first of all second of all he's telling his co-workers I took these pictures at the request of the kids parents and for some reason everybody's just too worried about looking unhip to say dude this is fucked up so we were

gonna do our family portrait of JC Penney's but I really wanted to see Wendy naked right that's my nine-year-old daughter and I was like why can't I find the right and I told him a JC Penney I told him a JC Penney they wouldn't do it so we had to go to Alcala photography I thought this was JC Penney I'm gonna do it nice oh my god I got my balls out no dick no why is this such a fucking problem you're gonna want to go to Sears for that mm-hmm well he did it in such a way where it like looks already like they're not like dark fuck it they're not dark polaroids like in a room with a single light bulb hanging above them like

a beach ball honestly you give them like you put ha you can put fucking hat on a piece of shit and look at this very nice picture of a cowboy and like no that's still a piece of shit and then these kids it's obviously better you remember the difference between red shoe diaries and hot springs hotel it's that it's one diaphanous red sheet well red shoe had a mystery attached to it there and yeah there was more plot yeah of course and Shannon thank you Shannon well upon further reflection those same people who just awkwardly smiled and nodded at these pictures they later acknowledged that they were looking at homemade

child pornography not only in full public view but in the workplace another victim of cancel culture cannot believe it no way from us man being cool doesn't really matter just so everybody knows child abuse happening trust me it ages poorly no matter what the social situation might be now yeah well it's around this time though that Rodney Alcala escalated from simple murder to fully posing the bodies of the victims he'd killed but unlike Danny Rowling who posed as victims in their own homes to shock the cops when they discovered the bodies Rodney pose the victims in public to shock and traumatize anyone who

happened upon the gruesome scenes like the Times Square like in the middle of a town center no I'm mostly hiking trails another reason not to hike thank you it's really helped me not exercise really that's yeah that's not the only place there are like what we'll get to another one later but yeah I mean places where it's gonna be found and where it's gonna be found soon an early November 1977 Alcala lured and killed 17 year old Jill Barkham who just moved to Los Angeles from Oh night at New York to follow her dreams like so many others who met a gruesome end in the city of angels damn yeah man head shots man it's

just so sad again all we have is how the body was found and what the coroner's report said but from those sources we know that Jill Barkham went through a terrible torture before she was posed near service road off Mulholland Drive and this is by the way this is definite definite gold star I'm thinking they should just rename a Holland Drive it seems like the term is cursed that's what's fun about it oh god rigor mortis had set in by the time Jill Barkham was found on all fours with her knees bent and pointing outward the top of her head was touching the ground to balance the body in its ghastly position and her

face was tucked so tightly against her chest that it appeared as if her neck was broken she was naked from the waist down and blood had pooled in the dirt below the body from the massive anal wounds suffered when Rodney raped her her face had been beaten a ligature had been used to strangle her a bite had nearly severed the nipple from her right breast and her pubic hair was singed but despite the elaborate nature of the torture Rodney Alcala had killed Jill Barkham by caving in her skull with a rock oh my god she had been alive for every bit of the torture leading up to that and since there were no barefoot

prints in the dirt cops knew that the murder had taken place elsewhere as far as leads went there was plenty of DNA evidence but again this was 1977 cops interviewed surrounding neighbors including Marlon Brando of all people yeah because you happen like right next to his house yeah Jesus crimini it's really good it's a good one as far as far as I love milk for the most part the cops were fucking stumped now this time Rodney Alcala had dropped a body right into the middle of the hillside strangler investigation my god and in an amazing coincidence Jill Barkham

actually knew Judith Miller who had been killed by Angelo Blono and Jennifer Bianchi less than two weeks earlier I actually don't think it's anybody safe no 1977 man no no no not this year but I do believe in my own mind of what we know about serial killers holds to be true about other serial killers he knew about the hillside strangler crimes and it was following them like he was probably following the son of Sam crimes when he went to New York and he positioned the body specifically so that it could possibly get lumped in with the hillside stranglers we now know that he has his own MO but I do believe that

like he was playing a bunch of different angles right so yeah copycat killer but not in a traditional sense somewhat I don't think he went I don't think he really thought about son of Sam I think he enjoyed going to a city where there were fear was ruling I don't think he had I think that would just happen to be like I'll go to New York I know I can kill people there with the hillside stranglers though I think he was trying to top them I think you what he because what he did and the way he left bodies and pose them far worse than anything that the whole side stranglers just fucking dump the bodies yeah and he's

trying to take things to the next level he's trying to top them because he's playing a game the whole time it's all of the posing it's the same thing with Danny Rawling it's just about a leaving a message after the fact so other people are traumatized and just hear the song anything you can do I can do better and it's like okay well that's not what the song's about it's scary it's gonna be slowed down for a trailer soon so now by this point the walls were starting to close in a little on Rodney Alcala but he still managed to talk his way out of it NYPD investigators had finally discovered that John Burger whose name

had been an Ellen Hover's diary on the day of her disappointment parents was the alias of Rodney Alcala convicted child rapist gotcha and it didn't take him I mean not not that long especially considered how like the NYPD had just wrapped up the son of Sam Murders they're still deal they're still dealing with thousands of murders every year in New York City so they're getting around to it yeah cuz actually when the son of Sam Murders are finally wrapped up they're like there we go that's six of them so they asked the LAPD to bring in Rodney Alcala for questioning and a lie detector test but since Rodney refused

the test as was his right and since cops had nothing linking him to Ellen Hover besides a name and a diary they were forced to let him go they had nothing and yeah maybe a few questions could have helped there I don't know but I get also lie detector tests also do nothing no they don't yeah they yeah they do nothing but that's a thing they yet they can only hold them for what 48 hours I was speaking with Dr. Don Castaldi for a Patreon episode and he said you know when a psychopath is lying on a on a lie detector test because you'll see it afterwards so there'll be like soup there'll be a spike after all the

questions and they'll be like how I do because they're so excited to like trick the lie detector test so it's actually they did they detect when someone's a psychopath afterwards based on how excited they are by the results whoa that's a little bit interesting that's interesting that's how you game it then I guess that's how you game it but that's a hot tip for you to listen to disconnect before you be before you show how thrilled you are for passing because you're a psychopath well because nothing came of the polygraph test Rodney Alcala continued killing about a month after the murder of Jill Barkham Rodney

escalated again instead of luring a victim into a trap it appears as if Rodney broke into someone's apartment for his next murder Allah Richard Ramirez so in the cops were called about a welfare check for a girl named Georgia Wichsted who hadn't shown up for work or responded to phone calls they noticed that the screen was missing from one of her windows and was propped up against a wall nearby that doesn't definitively say that he broke into her apartment but it's definitely a possibility or it's how we got out yeah when they search the apartment they found the body of Georgia Wichsted posed just as gruesomely as

Jill Barkham and killed just as brutally this time in her own bed blood was everywhere soaked into the mattress splattered on the walls and smeared on the toilet by the perpetrator while he was in the process of cleaning himself oh my god it reminds me a little bit what do you guys think like killdozer fantastic documentary the guy who created the machine was like they haven't stopped me if they really wanted to stop me they'd see what I was doing and they stopped me do you think at some point he's getting away with all of this shit where he's like I guess this is allowed I do believe that there is a

sense of invincibility that you get when you've picked up been picked up by the cops several times and they just don't stop him I mean I think it's more that they think it's instead of like this is allowed it's more this is nature they see themselves as tigers or bears or something like that and everyone dragon yeah the red dragon thing they see everyone else is lowly sheep so to him this is like oh this is the natural of order of things well somewhere between 2 15 a.m. and sunrise Rodney had broken in subdued Georgia Wichsted and strangled her with a knotted pair of pantyhose before ripping her flesh with one side

of a claw hammer then beating her to death with the other Rodney left behind more DNA and a palm print but again these clues were useless without the technology to match the former and an identifying print to link the latter but they don't even understand how these should have the identifying print I said three times don't they have the fingerprints they don't have any database to check it against and like if you just have a bunch of fucking cards like you know and he probably didn't have a palm print he just had probably just had his fingerprints we need to split the difference between hellacious sci-fi Tom Cruise films and

this oh yeah that's sweet I think that's cold 1999 yeah we're close we are like technically we're closer than ever which is what Marcus and I talked about it probably really does lead to the reason why there's less serial killers going on and more mass shooters but you know it it is rough yeah absolutely yeah but you know I don't worry Apple's gonna fix everything they're gonna check our phones don't worry they're gonna look into all our pictures to make sure that we don't have a single bit of thought crime going on don't worry about it now Rodney was questioned by police a few months after this murder but not in

connection to any of the murders he committed instead Rodney received a visit from the hillside stranglers task force oh a lot of cops going on yeah they took him off the suspects list after the interview because he had an alibi for every single night of every single hillside strangler murder but they did arrest him for pop possession oh my god that's where you got 30 years and that's the end of our episode and thank god for the war on drugs very quickly released on parole very quickly released which is insane considering how many people are still in fucking prison for a pop possession and again it's like hypocritical

seems like they use it for other means it seems like they use it to get other genders across I don't know maybe I'm crazy looked different he would have been arrested a long time ago mm-hmm three months later Rodney killed a woman named Zafar Shah then grotesquely posed her naked bloody body in the laundry room of an apartment complex in El Segundo cheese so man cuz sometimes especially back in the day when I had to go to the laundry room that was in it's a scary spot to begin with by the time I'm there I've already got like I got no clothes left no you know I mean now it's a crime scene I'll never get to work

again yeah you'll never do laundry again and that's the least of our worries here he posed her on her back with her legs spread open towards the door so the lewd display would be the first thing seen upon walking into the room her arms were bent back blood was splattered on a piece of wood nearby and Rodney had bizarrely tied a sandal to a shoelace and strung it around the victim's neck it's like childlike playing yeah now at about the same time that Zafar Shah's body was discovered by some unlucky tenant Ellen Hover's bones were found in a shallow grave just north of New York City near Terry town on the

Rockefeller estate which is now a park where I walk my dog with my wife that's what I like to hear things do get better I had a great time in Terry town brook and I we saw Roger McGuinn yeah that's nice also me and Ragnar and Holden once did mushrooms in that park we had a great time Older Cemetery or one of the oldest ones in America that's where the Rockefellas are buried it's all about making new memories isn't that nice anyway well once the discovery of the body was made public a young woman came forward and said that she'd had an extensive photography session with a guy named Rodney Alcala near the exact location where Hover's remains were

found and despite all this despite the fact that he'd now killed over half a dozen women at least and had tried killing a little girl and was now coming close to being a suspect in a murder in New York City less than two months after killing Zafar Shah Rodney Alcala appeared as a contestant on a nationally televised game show called the dating game and that's where we'll pick back up for the conclusion to our series on Rodney Alcala yeah dog we got some stuff on fucking the dating game next week I'm excited to delve a little bit into the complicated world of Chuck Barris and what his insanity that's a whole side

quest on this thing it is and then we will get into how Rodney Alcala finally stopped for his crimes but he's gonna do a lot more before he gets there and how we take a sociopathy into the courtroom when he defended himself all right very man who defends himself and called he has a fool for a client indeed he does and a dumb shit lawyer as well which is he all right wow I had no idea how frickin I just we've heard the story and I'm like oh he's a killer but holy shit that man is fucking disgusting yeah yeah yeah it is interesting to see the ones that are quote-unquote not heavy hitters like not the classic quote-unquote

classic good you know serial killer classic if you're gonna use that in the Coca-Cola font sure like that type of shit it's because a lot of times the reason why they aren't the quote-unquote heavy hitters that we talk about all the time is because they were weirdly more successful at being a murderer and they went for longer periods of time of not getting caught and quite a bit of the time they were not searching for attention they were just trying to cause as much my they were trying to cause as much violence and mayhem as they could yeah and I think there's a there's also with what kind of killers are

covered there's kind of a sweet spot when it comes to how brutal the murders are like the reason I think the reason why Ted Bundy is so you know it's so hugely covered because you know Ted Bundy is a good-looking guy Rodney Alcala is a good-looking guy it's not just the good-looking part no I think it's also that he had really like Ted Bundy's crimes can kind of just be papered over and there's that one like gross detail like he went back and had dead in the sex with the dead bodies and put makeup on the faces and did their hair that's like there's the one detail but Rodney Alcala that's what I was

super gross yeah yeah gross or there's got to be like a hook with Richard Ramirez his you know his crimes are really fucking brutal but it's satanism there's that hook to it and people like Rodney Alcala it's just and like and you know Danny Rowling for that matter like it's just it's so brutal and so beyond the pale and that it's impossible to talk about and we talk a lot of like we talk about the micro of you know being shamed as a sexual assault survivor and I suppose the macro in this case too everyone's just so embarrassed perhaps law enforcement fucked up as a country do we want to live

in a world where you can have someone like that even live I mean maybe no one wants to talk about the fact it's children that are being raped and murdered anyway all right well we will do we will get to part two of this holy hell holy hell I'm starting to think this guy should not have won that fucking dating game get to it thank you thank you so much for listening by are we do we have by the way last prisoner project yes look at them pre-order our comic book October fifth at your local comic book store so plumber it is on DC check it out and be

sure to order that come be sure to put it on your pull list either this week or next week you got to put it on now to make sure that your copy gets ordered so and make sure go to your local comic book store you got to go this week or next week if you want to be guaranteed a copy it's just gonna sell out so make sure that you reserve your copy with your local comic book store y'all and spend some more money while you're there yeah there's more horrible ways to spend your money than at a comic book store you can buy a bunch of bullets and distribute them at a school read ice cream and read department of truth

have a fucking great time it's fucking sweet this Sunday we have our mug shot roast it is on twitch.tv slash last podcast network yeah we got it is hosted by the glorious handboy Ed Larson kissle couldn't find his mug shot I got two mug shots with the DUI when I was 19 one when I was detained in the tombs but there weren't felonies there's no mug shot and I'm actually a little bit sad about commit bigger crimes kissle and it is this Sunday the September 12th the national hangover day I think we should start calling it and you go it's starting 5 p.m. Pacific and it's on our twitch channel and join us we're doing

it all for charity we're raising money for last prisoner project and it is going to be a really good time and we're going to see a lot of really horrible munch on absolutely and if you want a great insight into prison and why we need prison reform I did an interview with Larry Lawton and it was just fantastic in the amount of abuses that individuals suffer at the hens of our monetized prison system is on not right and on American it is all right everyone thanks so much for listening hail yourself hail Satan again my good relations and me yes indeed let the girl go always and don't go to JCPenney's

if you want to have a nude family photo if you want to get that photographer because you know a lot of these photographers they're sick of doing wedding sure this show is made possible by listeners like you thanks to our ad sponsors you can support our shows by supporting them for more shows like the one you just listened to go to last podcastnetwork.com