Last Podcast On The Left - Episode 84: Unsolved Serial Murders Part 2: The Zodiac

Episode Date: February 17, 2015

Henry and Marcus almost lose their minds researching the Zodiac killer as Ben tries to hold it all together. Tune in for the hard facts of the murders and the dozens of theories surrounding what is possibly the most famous and fascinating of all unsolved serial murders in American history.

There's no place to escape to. This is the last stop. On the left. That's when the cannibalism started. What was that? All the leaves are brown and the sky is grey and the sky is grey. I went for a walk. I'm sorry. Welcome to the show everybody. That's Marcus Parks. I'm Ben Kissel. With us is always the beautiful, the singing, the man, the one, the only.

Oh San Francisco. Henry Zabrowski got flowers in my hair. That's wonderful. What kind of flowers do you have in your hair today? Big stinky wet flowers. You're the world's worst am I? Yeah buddy, don't you anybody man? Hey man, are these free peanuts at the bar man? No, no, you gotta pay for them. Get out of here. Dude, you're hassling my butts. You know what, we're just gonna have to shut the doors. Why did we open up a bar in San Francisco?

Walk around back long hair. The hippies lost. That's right, they did indeed. The hippies were of a certain time, a very similar time to the main man of our subject. The main subject of today's episode. Absolutely guys, the Zodiac Killer. We gotta get, we have to get this episode done with. The information that is in my head from the Zodiac Killer research time period, because we've tried to do this episode three times. My brain, it's ruining my life. I know, it's ruining our friendship. It's ruining everything. Henry has changed. Henry came in earlier and we were doing the show outline and he's just yelling at us.

For no reason, Marcus is just sitting here about to cry. And he's not stopping, he's not breathing. I just go Henry, you need to calm down. I was researching at last night and we did a show last night and I came home last night at 11 o'clock. I had a bit to drink. And I was sitting, I was just a little bit. A detective's amount of wisdom. Yes, and I was sitting in the living room just reading, reading, reading and my girlfriend comes in and as she was coming I was literally going like, That's the fucking missing link. I mean like my shirt off and just walking around.

Reading for you was like a full bus. It's wide open. Reading for you was like a full contact sport. You're sweating profusely. You're standing up. You're running all around. You've got shoulder pads on a helmet. It's the only exercise I get. That's what this is about. Not a traditional form of exercise. You can admit that, right? So, to today's episode we're talking about the Zodiac Killer. Now this is possibly the most famous unsolved serial killing crime that has ever happened in the history of any time, right?

And this is- The history of any time. You're gonna maybe Jack the Ripper. You could say- You could say Jack the Ripper. Jack the Ripper. We're talking about America. We're talking about America.

America. What year are we talking about with the Zodiac Killer? 1968. And what state are we in? We are at the end of the hippie time. End of the hippie time. They're all- Put on your dress goals. Ain't no room for a brawl.

That's right. They all turned into hippie Henry Zabrowski. Ruin the movement. Got everybody kicked out of bars. Bush hair ruled the day. Bush hair ruled the day. Indeed. And what state are we in? We're in California.

We're San Francisco. San Francisco. San Francisco. And Vallejo, California. Vallejo, California. San Francisco. 1970s. Henry, let's start off with-

1960s. 1960s. Late 1960s. The Zodiac Killer is on the loose. Pre-Manson. Pre-Manson. Yeah. Yeah, so this is again, we were talking about last time, about like serial killing was new to America.

People do really understand- They get rid of BC and, you know, before Christ. It's pre-Manson and after Zodiac. Yeah. That's it. It's 1967 p.m. 68. 68 p.m.

Yeah. So let's start it, Marcus. Let's get into the details of the case. Because we're about to bust this, mother fuck. Ride open. That's right. The goal of today's episode, solve the Zodiac murders. Well, as we were saying last week, we covered it very briefly.

Before this time, before the 60s, most police detectives did not believe in the phenomenon of a serial killer. Right. Yes. So a lot of these serial killings did go unsolved for the longest time. And that's like Taco Bell not believing in the chalupa. Think about that. Where would we be if the Taco Bell never believed in the chalupa? Without soft crust, hard crust combos?

I don't think it can be done. Get out of here. You're a lunatic. What are you, a time traveler? Intrigue. What are you, George Washington's ghost? Just gets you murdered immediately. So can you imagine going back to the 1910s and introducing the idea of a chalupa?

That would be phenomenal. You got out. We will burn him at the stake. Then you come back to the future and everyone's like 5,000 pounds in motorized scooters. You'll be like, what have I done? I introduced the chalupa too soon. Puffy, delicious taco bread. Baja sauce.

I cannot believe how will we ever write this Constitution? Thomas Jefferson. This turns America into a fascist like Nazi state because they were eating chalupas the whole time and didn't read the Constitution. Let's get it. Set the scene. Set the scene. Here we go.

1968, beautiful sunny San Francisco. December 20th, 1968, the winter equinox. We'll get to that later. That's right. That's right. December 20th, 1968. Everyone's wearing sandals. No doubt.

Lake Herman Road. Richard Nixon's just a terrible dream. A couple of high school students. Betty Lou Jensen and David Faraday pull off under the local lover's lane. Yeah, they start finger-popping each other because they're 17. I remember when I was 17 the first time I made out with a girl, she was trying to give me like, you know, like over the pants, sexual stimulation. Yeah, she wanted to rub on that huge rock hard boner.

And she made such a burn on the tip of my dick, really just ruined the summer for me. Let's go. Let's take it to the Zodiac. Yeah, let's go. I had a similar thing happen. I had blue balls for a day. It really sucks when your girlfriend who's trying to love you breaks your penis. I'm going to take the podcast back to the Zodiac.

Let's focus on your penis, Henry. At about 10, 15 p.m., they pull under the lover's lane. Okay. They're just finger-popping. Sure. We're assuming they're finger-popping. We know they're finger-popping. We know this.

Okay. They said the forensics, when he died, he had one finger-popping side of him. Right, right, right. One in the butt as well, if you said area. Just prior to 11 p.m., a car pulls up beside the couple. The killer exits the car, walks towards the Jeep Rambler, takes both of them out of the car. Yeah, because he ordered them out of the car at gunpoint, right?

At gunpoint. What gun does he have in this first crime? I believe he has a 38. Yes, this is the 38. This is the 38. He takes them out, boop, boop, shoots them both in the head. Okay. One of them, the girl, was gunned down 28 feet from the car with five shots in her back.

Shot her in the back. At night. And that's what they're saying. It was an incredibly accurate shot. That's why there was a theory as to this, is that the killer used a flashlight attached to his gun and used it as a aiming technique and then fired her on the circle of the flashlight mark. Well, that seems to make sense.

Yeah, because they found five shots on her back on a crescent, like going up. So, basically, it looked like he shot her perfectly, like someone who's trained with a gun. She shouldn't have worn that bullseye denim jacket she always wore. The old female dartboard there. Next kill. So, was there a theory after they found out that he was such an amazing sharpshooter that hit military times?

We will get into that. We'll get into that. Okay, good. We'll get into that. We'll definitely get into that. It seems like he must. Midnight, July 4th, 1969, Darlene Farron and Michael Maggio drove to Blue Rock Springs Park in Vallejo four miles from the first murder site.

You also noticed that that's another victim's site with water in the name of where the crimes happened and that will also feature later. Yes, it will. I like it. I like it. A second car drove into the lot. So, we're up to four. Now, he killed both of these people.

Well, we'll get to that. We'll get to that. Yeah, yeah. So, he drove into the lot, parked right next to them, immediately drove away. Ten minutes later, the car parks behind them, approached the passenger side door of the car, carrying a flashlight and a nine-millimeter Luger, different weapon. Different gun. Different gun.

The killer directed the flashlight into their eyes before shooting five times. Jesus, Henry, you're scaring me, man. Both victims were hit and several bullets passed right through him. Okay. The killer walked away from the car, but upon hearing Maggio's moaning, he returned and shot each victim twice. Because Michael... Before driving off.

Michael Maggio did it. Really? That's a pro tip for anybody who's murdered by a serial killer, pretend to be dead because that's what he did. He said that he played dead, but then he went, I mean, again, don't do that. That's what amateurs do. If you get shot, you get dead. That's what I do.

If I even hear a gunshot away, I drop to the ground and act like I'm dead. That's right. Yeah. If I hear a car crash, I'm... You're gone. Yeah, you're on the floor. Absolutely. I have a bunch of fake blood that I'll cover myself in at any given time so that I could

just be a victim. Right. But I mean, in all honesty, in all truth, that's the home situation when James Holm went and shot up the Batman movie theater. A lot of people were just like, just pretending to be dead. And all of these, the Columbine shootings, a lot of people just survived but put their fucking faces straight down and just... Possum it.

That's what you got to do when you're shot by a serial killer. About half an hour after that, the police, the Vallejo Police Department, get a phone call that says, I just killed two kids. And then at the end, he tells them exactly where they are. And they find out that the phone booth was about three-tenths of a mile from Farron's home and only a few blocks away from the Vallejo Police Department. At the end of the call, he just adds almost as an afterthought, oh, I also killed those kids last year.

There's a lot of this at the Zodiac Killer, the whole crime sequence is that he'll go and be like, oh yeah, I'm gonna also kill these guys. Oh yeah, you know, and I also got that other couple, you know they said that old man died of a heart attack? Yeah, well, I fed him a chelup until he died. Yes, oh, the beef, the beef stuck into his heart. So how messed up does your mind have to be if it's an afterthought, the fact that you killed two people?

Like, it wasn't on the top, like, if I killed two people, I feel like I'm carrying that on the front of my brain. Or later on again, because what comes into it is like, is he lying? Is this guy lying? Are these all done by different people? Like is it just somebody who's looking to be important, trying to get the same in the paper? Or is it a guy who's really killing somebody?

Or was it a hit man that was killing a bunch of other people around the hit that he was supposed to get for money? Or was he a part of the fucking San Francisco police force who was starting to build a case against himself and then as soon as they start to crack it, they realize they can't bust him because, oh, he's a brother in blue. Or do you need to take a nap? Does Henry need to take a nap? Sweating profusely.

By the way, also, ladies and gentlemen, Henry came in, he was wearing shorts, like an adult would wear outside immediately, immediately changed into a bathing suit. Well, because it's not in here. It is very warm in here. Obviously, you guys have been listening to the past few episodes. Henry has been shirtless, and so I want to say thank you, Henry. Your shirt is on and you have a bathing suit. You're prepared.

I bought a second shirt to put on after this is done. Good, good. Fantastic. Yes. I love you, Henry. I love you. And so after the July 4th murders happened, on August 1st, 1969, three letters were received at the Vallejo Times Herald, the San Francisco Chronicle, and the San Francisco Examiner.

All three letters were identical, however, each letter contained a different cipher that when put together supposedly gave you the identity of the killer. Let's read the letter. Yes. Dear editor, this is the murderer of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman, and the girl... And Christmas is spelled wrong. Christmas is...

How did he spell Christmas? With an extra S at the end. There are a lot of spelling errors. It's really interesting, but you also saw the same thing in the BTK killings when he sent the letters, but what is also interesting because he was a highly educated man who wasn't misspelling things, they do this on purpose in order to show that they're deranged. They're trying to... That was my question.

Also, if you break up spelling patterns, it's really hard to determine handwriting analysis. Okay, interesting. That was my major question because the man wrote a cipher that was almost impossible to crack. But he wrote it in childlike letters. Let's just get into it. We'll get to that in all of those theories.

I have stuff to refute. Sure. Okay. Okay. God, this is just... I love this, by the way. We're already in too deep. Zodiac killer.

I'm just going to apologize again to our listeners. This is more complicated than any alien agenda thing I've ever read. I know the reptilian world just seems like a total rational thought compared to the Zodiac killer conversations I've been overhearing and participating in. And by the way, I want to say, Kaley's friend Ashley, happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, Ashley. All right.

Goodbye. All right. Goodbye. Did you kill her? Goodbye. Why are you saying goodbye? What's your birthday? See you soon in hell.

All right. Well, that's what... When you asked last podcast for a birthday wish, that's what it turns into. Okay. I hope you don't go to heaven. Oh, Henry, it's her birthday. Thank you for listening, Ashley. All right.

Dear editor, this is the murderer of the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Herman and the girl on the 4th of July near the golf course in Vallejo. To prove I killed them, I shall state some facts which only I and the police know. Christmas. Number one, brand name of ammo, Super X. Oh, that's cool. Number two, 10 shots were fired. Number three, the boy was on his back with his feet to the car.

Four, the girl was on her right side, feet to the west. 4th of July, one girl was wearing patterned slacks. Two, the boy was also shot in the knee. Three... His finger was inside the girl's vagina. Three, brand name of ammo was Western. And then it says over at the bottom on the page over. If you do...

Just so you know, there's more letter. There's more letter. Yeah. God forbid they don't read the back. Over. Oh, I didn't even look at the back. I can't even believe. How long have we had this?

Oh, yeah. Oh, he wrote his name on the back. I can't, I can't believe it. His name is address, the whole thing, a picture of himself. I love it when these guys write letters. Oh, no, I can't seem to read any of the writing because it's all covered and delicious. Butter stains. It's so amazing.

Detective Popcorn has just entered the studio. Detective Popcorn, have you ever received a letter from a serial killer? Long ropes, a candy rope. How I love a Twizzler. You could use it as a straw for a Coca-Cola. Sure can, but have you cracked any serial killer letters? Four different guns. It's like when you could put four different toppings on a bucket of popcorn, Parmesan,

cheese. Okay, but that's great. But I mean, we're talking about serial killer. K-John spice mix. Right, right. But then let's say a serial killer sent you... Caramel. Delicious, spicy cayenne caramel.

Cayenne caramel. So you get a message from a serial killer. It's a letter. You read the letter and you... Have you met my friend, Buttered Corn? No, I haven't. I think he's my uncle. Yeah, it makes sense.

Okay, Detective Popcorn, he's gone to drain his Detective Popcorn penis. I'm sure he pisses pure butter. I do. Yes. Yeah, you actually do. That's why it's Yella. Yella, because it's butter. Second part of the letter.

Yes. Over. Here is part of a cipher. The other two parts of this cipher are being mailed to the editors of the Vallejo Times and the SF Examiner. Okay. I want you to print this cipher on the front page of your paper. And this cipher is my identity.

If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry 1st of Aug 29, I will go on a kill rampage Friday night. I will cruise around all weekend killing lone people in the night, then move on to kill again until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend. Because he signed an OMG law. Law. Law. And at the very end, he has his famous symbol, which is the circle with the cross in the

middle. Which is also the actual official symbol of the earth in Zodiac writings. It's also the name. It's also the symbol for Zodiac, just the sort of the term Zodiac. You can use that as that. It's also a compass. It's also a target. Okay.

And again, all can be featured inside of the many different conspiracy theories wrapped into who the Zodiac killer is. That's right. And of course, other people say that it is a KKK symbol because the Zodiac killer was a white supremacist. Marcus, I need you to do this. But you also read about how there could also be a thing called the yphyrum, which is an ancient viking symbol that if you add two things to it, like if you combine a target

with the peace symbol, and you do that because Ted Gazinski was using that, again, another suspect. We'll get into the Univomer theory later. You can also relate that viking religion to the Thule Society, which the Nazis worshiped. Oh my God. Marcus, I didn't even know that connection. I cannot have you both going crazy. I really can't handle it.

Mark, you need to be with me here. Let's get back to the facts. We're supposed to just be covering the facts. Man, I've been barely hanging on this entire time. It's really hard to not just like start screaming. It's been really hard. I know it. I know.

You guys are doing great. You're holding it all together. Everything is wonderful. So he sends this letter out. Do you put this on the front page of your newspaper? Yes. Absolutely. They put it on the front page.

They send this cipher, which is 17 letters across, 24 rows long, which is the whole thing of various symbols. It could just be cock-a-doodle. It could just be this guy going like, and this is a funny picture of a smile. It could be emojis. Part of it is true, though. Yes. Part of it is true.

They send it to the NSA. They send it to the CIA. The FBI. They crack it until a teacher couple, and I forget where they were, what part of the country. They just cracked it, and this is what it read. I like killing people because it is so much fun. It is more fun than killing wild game in the forest because man is the most dangerous animal

of all. That's going to come up later on in the podcast as well. I like this. Absolutely. To kill something gives me the most thrilling experience. It is even better than getting your rocks off with a girl. The best part of it is that when I die, I will be reborn in paradise, and all those I have killed will become my slaves.

I will not give you my name because you will try to slow down or stop my collecting of slaves for my afterlife. It's a bunch of extra letters. The real future investment. An afterlife full of the victims that you killed. Isn't that a nightmare? Isn't that how maniac sort of lived? Why would he imagine that when he goes to heaven, unless he is confronted by everyone

he murdered, they would be his slaves. As opposed to people who would just like rip him limb from fucking limb. This is part of the satanic connection because some satanists believe that those you kill can be in some sort of incantation which also goes deeper to the temple of set where the original sort of evil religion of Egyptian times came out like that's where people, pharaohs were buried with a bunch of different like their servants would have to be all be buried with them. They say when the pharaoh dies, when you're the pharaoh's shell, because you're gone

to. Because this plays into having your killed be your slaves in the afterlife also plays into another theory we're going to talk about later that has to do with math, with Mount Diablo and satanist underpinnings. Well we kind of briefly discussed the couple that cracked the code. How did they end up cracking the code? They did a staycation. They just did a staycane?

Oh yeah. Okay. And they just cracked it. When everyone else failed, they cracked it. But there is other, this is part one, correct? This is part one technically. The other two parts could not be solved. Yeah.

And there is a series of theories about that. There's a theory that it's just too complicated to solve. And there's another theory that the guy only he just had because anyone with a book on how to make codes can make a code. Yeah. Right. And it, the fact that the first one was so hard and the other two are indecipherable. Some people say it's because the zodiac killer was not a clever man.

No. He just was a moron. What would it be? Gary Ridgway. The Green River Killer. The America's most prolific serial killer was a fucking moron. Same thing with Henry Lucas. Henry Lucas apparently killed hundreds and hundreds and he was legally retarded pretty

much. And it was like, these are guys that are like, they're just good at one thing. Right. They're good at killing. Again, pointing to the main suspect that was named by Richard Grzynski, the former political cartoonist for the San Francisco Chronicle who said that Arthur Lee Allen was the guy who did it, who was also had like the mental age of a 15-year-old. The mind of a child.

Yeah. So what was the point of him putting all the extra letters there at the end? He just ran out of stuff to say. I think it's just a bad cipher. And you can see at near the end of it. It's all falling apart. It all starts to fall apart near the end, which I think that definitely points to someone who's just not very good at this.

So the San Francisco Chronicle put this on their front page. Yes. That's a fun day to pick up a newspaper, right? That's an amazing thing. You know, fuck reading the Daily Comic. You try to crack that cipher, right? I remember in New York when I was growing up in 1993, there was this Zodiac copycat killing somewhere going on.

And that was more to the letter, like he was killing a different person of each Zodiac symbol for each month until he was caught. And he sent letters to the editor as well. And that was very, that was kind of along the same lines, basically saying I'm collecting slaves for the afterlife again. Okay. All right. So on the 4th, 1969, they get a second letter, the San Francisco examiner gets a second letter

and this is the very first time that the killer self identifies as the Zodiac. I feel, in my opinion, this is when he stopped writing letters. I don't think he wrote this letter, but let's continue. I mean, I will say rarely do I appreciate somebody nicknaming themselves, but I kind of appreciate him nicknaming himself a Zodiac. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Dear editor, this is the Zodiac speaking.

In answer to your asking for more details about the good times I've had in Vallejo, I shall be very happy to supply even more material. By the way, are the police having a good time with the code? If not, tell them to cheer up. When they do crack it, they will have me. On the 4th of July, I did not open the car door. The windows were rolled down already. The boy was originally sitting in the front seat when I began firing.

When I fired the first shot at his head, he leaped backwards at the same time, thus spoiling my aim. I ended up on the back seat then, the floor in back, thrashing out very violently with his legs. That's how I shot him in the knee. I did not leave the scene of the killing with squealing tires and racing engine as described in the Vallejo paper. I drove away quite slowly so as to not draw attention to my car.

The man who told the police that my car was brown was a Negro about 40 to 45. Whoa, like the N word. A little, little touch. It was a different time. I think it was actually polite for the time. He was rather... Actually, I think it was, yeah, it was very polite. Rather shabbly dressed.

I was at this phone booth having some fun with the Vallejo cops when he was walking by. When I hung the phone up, the damn thing began to ring and that drew his attention to me and my car. Last Christmas. In that episode, the police were wondering as to how I could shoot and hit my victims in the dark. They did not openly state this, but implied this by saying it was a well lit night and

I could see the silhouettes on the horizon. Bullshit. That area is surrounded by high tails and trees. What I did was tape a small pencil flashlight to the barrel of my gun. If you notice, in the center of the beam of light, if you aim it at a wall or ceiling, you will see a black or dark spot in the center of the circle of light about three to six inches across. When taped to a gun barrel, the bullet will strike exactly in the center of the black

dot in the light. All I had to do was spray them as if it was a water hose. There was no need to use the gun sides. I was not happy to see that I did not get front page coverage. Zodiac. Oh, boom. We won the front page coverage. Well, in the end, what we're going to see now is that Act 3 of this is incredible.

He's going to deserve some Michael Jordan-fucking-airplay. You've got to get those new Zodiac shoes that are coming out soon. The one with the puppets. Well, he didn't want everyone to wear his buttons. He did. The letters he writes later on, he gets very mad. He wants everyone to wear Zodiac buttons, and if he don't, he's going to blow up a school bus.

But then, I didn't catch on. I don't know. I want one. I'm definitely going to get one. We'll figure it out. We can make buttons. The Zodiac speaking, though, I feel like it's more like this is the Zodiac in his underwear screaming at the wall while attempting to write this letter.

This is the Zodiac eating tamales. I just love it. This is the Zodiac speaking. Yeah, it sounds great. Let's get into the next attack. The next attack is possibly the most famous attack of them all. We have four confirmed kills. Four confirmed.

No, three confirmed kills. Three confirmed kills. Three of the dude, oh, you'll notice a lot of these, the dude lives because men are stronger. Are you going to go into that argument right now? Hear me, Jezebel. Exo, Jane, Jezebel. Check us out. All right.

All right. So let's go into it. September 27, 1969. Brian Hartnell and Cecilia Shepard, two Pacific Union college students, picnicking at Lake Berryessa on a small island connected by a sand spit to Twin Oak Ridge. Oh, didn't he think he had a perfect date idea? Oh, yeah. No, what I like about this specific, this instance is they were talking about how like

Cecilia told him, just like, we really need to talk about something. So it's like, this is like, they were having a bad conversation. That's right. Yeah. God, I just wish someone would come and shoot me in my fucking head, Cecilia. Really, Cecilia? You're blowing Tom behind the bleachers. Seriously?

This is ridiculous. Come on, Cecilia, stop. I hope a bullet fucking goes right through your eyes, Cecilia. Hey, we're over here. Hey, we're over here. The only two victims of the Zodiac Killer that desperately wanted to die. Well, here's what happened. Yes.

A man approached them wearing a black executioner style hood with clip on sunglasses over the eye holes and a bib-like device on his chest that had a white three by three cross circle symbol on it. So fucking rock and roll. Just covered in pudding. So fucking rock and roll. The Zodiac symbol. It's like, this is where like, where I find the BTK taunting the police to be like, kind

of dumb and nerdy and shitty where it's like, this guy had something going on. Like, if you got the costume, like you are, you know, that's presentation. I appreciate that as a performer. That's right. I mean, this is on par with Batman putting on the Batman mask. Choker shit. Yeah, it's a bad one. Get more details.

The details of this one's amazing. Yeah. And so he approached them with a gun, which was probably a 45. Yes. Different weapon. Once again, the hooded man claimed to be an escaped convict from Dear Lodge, Montana, where he had killed a guard and stolen a car, explaining that he needed their car and money to go to Mexico.

Okay. Well, all got to go to Mexico. Everyone's got to go to Mexico. Absolutely. I hear Cosimil's beautiful. Does anybody go to Mexico to like, not escape something? Birthplace of the daiquiri. Isn't that something?

So he's going. He cut links of plastic clothesline and told Shepard to tie up Hartnell before he tied her up. The killer checked and tightened Hartnell's bonds before discovering Shepard had bound Hartnell's hands loosely. Hartnell initially believed it to be a weird robbery, but the man drew a knife and stabbed them both repeatedly. Well, apparently what you said is this is thing.

He changed his whole modus operand again, and then it would like he changed everything. He turned to them apparently like because the dude survived the attack. He told them, now I'm going to kill you. Later it was like, now I have to kill you. Step, step, step, step, step. And then he wrote the dates of the first two attacks on the, in Charby marker on the door of their car, drew the zodiac symbol. But that's a new paint job.

Yeah. But then wrote that day's date and wrote by knife underneath it. It was Vallejo 12, 20, 68, 7, 4, 69, September 27th, 69, 6, 30 by knife. So do you put the fucking time of the murder in there? Is that why you think, is it possible this is a different killer than the first two? No, I honestly think, well these are what is now considered, these are considered the canonical murders of the zodiac. I mean like technically the next one, Paul Stein as well, we could talk about that real,

maybe real quickly go over the details of that. Very quickly. Which was a cab driver named Paul Stein that was murdered by what it seems to be the zodiac killer. And the reason why that was confirmed later on is because he took a picture, he took a part of his bloody shirt and mailed it to them in a letter afterwards. But that was filled with weird shit where it was like, he got, I forgot where he picked him up.

He said that he picked up a clean cut man with a crew cut, which is now you hear several mentions of that. A guy with a crew cut, big thick glasses, big strong jaw. And that's the most notorious picture of the zodiac that we know, right? The only one that was taken. The composite, the police composite, which we know are very flawed often times. Very much so. The costume that the guy wore was an execution of style hood, meaning that it was strangely

enough, it wasn't your total, like just straight down hood, rounded hood. It was squared. Yeah. It was like a bag on your head with two eye holes again pointing to the KKK slash Satanist idea that he had the costume that he just retrofitted to be like, I'm now I'm the joker motherfuckers. Yeah. Yeah.

You know. And so Paul Stein, I mean, there's something sort of a masculine about sewing at your desk as an adult nail, but that's very masculine to sew. Yeah. Well, when it's the zodiac mask, I think it is. Yeah. It's different. Yeah.

So on October 11th, 1969, just a couple of weeks later, Paul Stein, a cab driver in San Francisco picks up what is supposedly the zodiac at Union Square in San Francisco, drives him to Presidio Heights, which is a very fancy nice neighborhood in San Francisco. Very much so. At least that was at the time. And so the passenger, he then shot Stein once in the head with a nine millimeter, a different nine millimeter from the one before. Okay.

This is the fourth different weapon he's used. He used a 3080, he used a Luger, he used a knife and now a nine millimeter. It's really strange. And even the gun that he had at the third scene was different from any other gun. Yeah. That was a 45. So is it a gun collector? Like that, I mean, when that's what they're saying, that's a part of what points to some

various numbers, members of the suspect list that gun collectors, it's like he's got a shit ton of guns. Right. But we'll get to the suspects soon. And speaking of suspects, the cops, this plays into the cop theory that there were multiple witnesses at the scene that saw this guy coming out of the car right after he had shot Paul Stein. And he did take a bloody piece of his shirt and send it to the San Francisco.

To prove that it was him. To prove that he did it. But then when the radio dispatch went out looking for the suspect, they said a black guy was doing it. So it was like now. So who? Yeah. Of course he did.

And then he wrote a letter after the fact saying like, well, you guys all raced around trying to see how much money, how much noise you all can make with your cars and your cigarettes. I slipped away after speaking with several police officers. So he hung around. Right. Right. Right. So this is very interesting.

Right. Yeah. A mildly charming fellow, it sounds. So the San Francisco police, as far as the canonical deaths, that's it. That's it. It's five. He killed five. The police department, they investigated and estimated 2,500 suspects.

Everybody in San Francisco that wasn't like, you know, holding a guitar or like on tell, like was questioned by the police. So he was, he was five for seven, five for seven and obviously not the highest serial killer toll of all time. No. It's more about his cultural impact. Right. Exactly.

So it's more of a son of the Sam, son of the Sam. Son of the Sam. Son of the Sam. Son of the Sam. This is a situation that everyone was paralyzed. And now let's read the letter, the, the one part that's important to read for the Stein letter is the part where he said, um, if you don't basically, uh, again, yeah. October 13th, 1969.

This is the Zodiac speaking. I am the murderer of the taxi driver over by Washington street and Maple street last night to prove this here is a bloodstained piece of his shirt. I am the same man who did in the people in the North Bay area. The San Francisco police could have caught me last night if they had searched the part properly instead of holding road races with their motorcycles, seeing who could make the most noise. Somebody's man.

The car drivers should have just parked their cars and sat there quietly waiting for me to come out of cover. School children make nice targets. I think I shall wipe out a school bus some morning, just shoot out the front tire and then pick off the kiddies as they come bouncing out. It's an easy way to do it. But again, this is, but this is the beginning of his various threats about bombing a school bus.

Then the buttons threat came out saying like, if people answer wearing the buttons, I'm going to blow up a school bus. You can find like various victims that he said that he's laid all over town. And then what he would do is as these, these subsequent letters would come out, he'd start putting at the bottom letter like zodiac symbol equals 12 SFPD zero and then zodiac equals like 27 and then SFPD equals zero. Like, like he was racking up counts. So by the end, they said the zodiac claimed to have murdered 37 people by like until he

totally disappeared. Any def, any, uh, no, no, no, it's all because then we find out later on, the guy that was the head of the investigation, Detective Toshi started writing fake letters as a zodiac and printing them and talking about them in order to get the real zodiac, there's various ones like a Halloween card that was sent. That was, it wrote paradise slaves on the side of it and then by fire, by knife, by gun, by rope. And then that was a detective.

That was a detective. He did that. So did the newspaper continues to publish all these? Oh, of course. Is that the right decision to make? The one where he, uh, claims 37 victims, it was a review of the exorcist. He said, I saw and think the exorcist was the best satirical comedy that I have ever seen.

That's all right. Signs, yours truly. He plunged himself into the billowy wave and an echo arose from the Suicide's grave. Tit willow, tit willow, tit willow. Beautiful poem. It kind of reminded me of the beachy quay, it's just like, oh, oh, Anna, why weren't you there? Right.

Yeah. So maybe he wants to give up the serial killer game and become a movie critic. I did. Don't get a job with the paper. Oh my God. Was it fucking Roger Ebert? Did Roger Ebert do this? Thank God he's dead.

Thank God. Roger Ebert. Good. Uh, no, uh, the head detective, Tashi, he almost went insane over all these killers and Tashi was. I can imagine why. Yeah. Because we're trying to do one podcast on it.

Right. I could barely not scream. Yeah. And he was a super cop. Dirty Harry was based on him. Okay. Which is also Scorpio. And the whole thing is Scorpio about taking the school bus.

It's all based on Zodiac. It was a fun time. I don't think it happens anymore. I think if you write a letter to the New York Times and be like, put my cipher on the cover of your, of your newspaper, I will murder again. People just don't have imaginations anymore. Right now, the only unsolved killing we have going on in America is a Long Island serial killer and he's just killing prostitutes.

And in the end, I mean, that's just, you know, it's a part for the course, but you know, prostitutes are people too. And wonderful people. Do we absolutely love prostitutes. Do we also want to, do we want to play his call into a local chat show? In San Francisco? I desperately want to hear this. I love this call.

And so much. He called in. Two guys. As himself. I don't think it turned out to be him. No, it's proven to be a fellow in a psycho ward. Yeah. Yeah.

But this was a call that he did to speak with, to speak with San Francisco itself. Yeah. At the time, the, the two news anchors thought that it was real and they reacted in very nice like super pleasant. Yeah. He called the police demanding to speak to lawyer Marvin Belly or F. Lee Bailey. Of course, F. Lee Bailey was very available. Yeah.

Of course he was. Yeah. Interesting. And he specified a morning show. Okay. So for some reason he just wanted to get it out of the way. He's an early riser. The Zodiac's an early riser.

I actually do it before I do. I take my run. Yeah. Of course. To save in his hood. Just run the next highway. Is that the Zodiac killer? Like going for a jog?

Very bizarre. It's just, I'm losing water weight with the back. Yeah. Yeah. You know how like amateur wrestlers, they drop the, they drop the pounds. Yeah. I'm looking to slim down about 15. Yeah.

I'm trying to, you know, it's hard to work what I do. I would love to see the Zodiac in the mirror just pinching a love handle. Get yourself together, Zodiac. You're the Zodiac. Never make Cosmo. Come on. This is on the Jim Dunbar show. The Jim Dunbar show.

In the morning, San Francisco. All right. Talk to us. Just tell us what's going on inside you right now, Sam. Please. I have headaches. Right. How long have you had those headaches, Sam?

In a long time. I think I killed a kid. What? Was it before December that you had the headaches? Yeah. Yeah. Were you in service that you might have had an injury in service? Or did you ever fall out of a tree or down stairs or ever unconscious?

I don't know. You don't remember? You're not going to be any good? No. Doesn't do any good. Yeah. Let me ask you a question, Jim. Did you attempt to call this program one other time when Mr. Belli was with us?

And you called? Did you try to call us one other time? Turn down the radio. Turn down the radio. When Mel Belli was with us. Yeah. And you, man. Well, then you wouldn't get through the phone.

The phones were tied up. Was that it? Yeah. Sam, let me ask you this. There's some reason why you go to a particular doctor or a particular priest. And some reason why apparently you wanted to talk to me or lead. Is it that you feel that we have compassion for people who get in trouble? Or is it that you feel that we can do something for you?

Or is it that you feel that we have enough integrity that we promise you something? If you refrigerate everything. I don't want to be hurt. First-time caller, long-time watcher. This is the Zodiac. And you guys have energies. Can you imagine? The Zodiac is calling your show.

And the question is, you tried to call before, right? Couldn't get through it. That's the question. This is the fucking Zodiac. And your question is about inside baseball talk. Boy, and we really thank all of our listeners who call every morning. Everybody ever calls. You guys make the show.

I mean, Barb out in Santa Rosa. You're our favorite. Keep calling. Don't give up, Barb. That dialogue is just unbelievable. I killed a kid. I have headaches. And then the next is, I killed a kid.

So how long have you been having the headaches? How do you breeze over the kid lines? I had two things as well. Because I had magic candy. All right. But go back to the child. How did you kill the kid? Sometimes I just think about having a breast-greed spleen and enjoying myself.

Are you the Zodiac? Or are you just a fat, fat, sad man? You guys seen Butch and Sundance? It's a funny story. It's a great movie. Yes. But let's go back to the child that you murdered. Slastic acting.

And you know, it's hard to find comfortable shoes in a stylish, stylish form. How old was the child you murdered? Yeah, I just, I'm a butto-wit. I sat in a plate of water. Okay. Well, this is- Plate of water? I'm beginning to believe he's not the Zodiac killer.

He seems to have very little information about the crop. Well, thanks for calling in Zodiac. I just feel like that's what he would sound like. I think that's exactly what it did sound like. Make a head. I'll go right there. That's the thing. Yeah.

I got my outfit in. Big knife. Yeah, I'm gonna get those guys. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I guarantee you that's exactly what the Zodiac sounds like. That's what possesses you to go and murder everybody that's in love with a goddamn leather mascot. Yeah, I'm gonna sit down and write a letter. It's gonna be hard for them to read it.

I won't listen to it. Yeah. You think you listen to that Neil Young song? I listen to the puzzles. I like puzzles in there. I can like my puzzles in there. Yeah, I put my mind to it. That's like serial killers.

They are just super nerds. They are all super nerds. Man, just sews and writes letters and makes ciphers all night long. So now that we're in a solid 45 minutes into the podcast. Oh, right. Let's get into some suspects. Let's get into some suspects. And we didn't even get into the non-canonical murders like the Riverside Attacks.

Which, I mean, bridge over them. Well, Riverside Attacks is, there was this girl, Sherry Joe Bates, who was brutally beaten and stabbed in Riverside. Similar to the Zodiac fashion? Similar to that. Well, I mean, that's the thing. But there was no Zodiac fashion. There's no Zodiac fashion. Every single murder is different.

Every single method, every single weapon is different. It's like Neil Young's like last five albums. Right, yeah. You know where it's like, this one's surf rock. Yeah, this one's all about cars. This one's about war. This one's about shoes, funny shoes, high heel shoes. This one's all about my dog, which is a true album, I believe.

Well, after the Riverside murder, there was a letter written to the police. But it was very well written. And uncharacteristic. Uncharacteristic, and the style's like in the Zodiac killer, like in those letters, he only says kill. He only uses the word die once, and he says it's like when I died. But then all the rest of the letters are all super romantic and flowery about death. Kind of sound like what the BTK killer did.

Sure, yeah. So it's taken a life of its own. Gay shit. Yeah, it's pretty gay shit. Yeah, right. And there was a poem found written underneath a desk, and some people say that it was Zodiac for reasons that I will get into later. We're going to have to start getting into these things soon.

Yes, that's it. Also, that works in the Satanism, that the reason why Sherry Joe Bates is possibly a part of this entire thing. So all the murders are different. It seems like a very confusing situation, which leads to the fact that's why no one was caught and that's why there's tons and tons of suspects. Tons and tons and tons of suspects. Again, we were saying the deepest, darkest rabbit hole I've ever gone down is researching

who was this Zodiac killer. Well, let's get into the most famous suspect. The most famous one is a guy named Arthur Lee Allen, who was a pretty retarded man from the San Francisco area that was convicted child molester. But then some people were like, oh, he's a hilarious guy. What people said that was so funny about him is that he'd carry a machete around with him and he'd try to kill flies with the machete. Oh, that's funny.

That's comedy. I had a friend like this that would just do really weird things out of nowhere that were kind of violent and kind of dangerous and makes a whole room uncomfortable. Yeah, I got to go home. One of the guys grew up as a childhood friend. It's the kind of same way. He came to visit New York City. He thought it was really funny to buy crack from a dude on the subway and then when they

would all trip acid, he would go and smash windows with a fucking knife in his hand in order to freak everybody out. Because he only hung out with psychopaths, all his friends were all criminals and derelicts and stuff like that. They all loved him. So what was Arthur's job? What did he do in the camp? Arthur was a, he was between gigs.

Always between gigs. Yeah, yeah. You have to have a gig at one time, right? And then the idea of another gig at another time. He taught elementary school and then was fired for being sexist. He loved it. Don't you want a prison for that? Well, we can get it.

Do you want to hear some actual, some of his friends? These are some of his friends who describe Arthur Lee Allen. This is from a documentary called His Name Was Arthur Lee Allen, which was just a whole bunch of interviews with his dirtbag scum of the earth. No, and the one thing I will say is that this whole idea was put forward by the guy who was a political cartoonist for the San Francisco Chronicle. He wrote the book Zodiac, which the movie Zodiac was based on, David Fincher's movie. And this is, so this is like the common guy that everyone says did it.

Sure, yeah. And this is his friends. He's taught, read this. He's talking about his first ever experience with Arthur Lee Allen. Yeah. Alright, let's judge him by his acquaintances. A fight in suit. And I don't remember if I punched him first or he got in a fight with a dude who thought

he was fucking his girlfriend. But I punched him and he went down to his knees. And when he did, he grabbed ahold of my genitalia and was holding on. And just a minute amount of panic ran through my body. This is a man used to speaking to police, you could tell, because of the way he looked. And at that moment, the door, the main door of that apartment I was in just imploded. It wasn't that the door came loose or opened. It came right off the hinges, that door imploded and came right down.

And a big man came through that door carrying a knife. And I could see in that man's face, in his eyes, that man was devoid of an immortal soul. That man was on just a different plane than... And then they hung out for the next 15 minutes. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing, this becomes your best friend. Yeah, yeah. So he got basically his actual best friend, quote unquote best friend, a guy named Don Cheney,

called the police and said, like, hey, I think my buddy Arthur is a Zodiac killer. And at this point, they said that they were going through five suspects a day. They were going through, people were calling being like, my son-in-law is a Zodiac killer. Sure. And they were like, go fucking check it out. And it's just because he's parking your daughter and everybody is upset about it. It's like when he went to, so they called him and so he called the police and they're like, well, why do you think he's a Zodiac killer?

And he's like, well, you know, once we used to go hunting together and we'd go out and go hunting. And then one time he turned to all of us and he's like, hey guys, you ever thought about like killing a bunch of people? I've got it right here. On one occasion, Cheney and Arthur Allen were talking more or less in a science fiction type story mode. You see, this is story mode.

Like a character. Oh, okay. Yeah. He's a Thesbon. Yeah. Like when Henry does character. That's right. Yeah.

Yeah. So this is detective Bobcourt. So you guys ever think about going murdering a bunch of people? I love it when I play this character. It sounds exactly like me and it's actually how I feel. I love it. Arthur Allen asked Cheney, have you ever thought about hunting people? Allen talked on relating how he could go to a lover's lane area and use a revolver

or pistol with a flashlight attached for illumination and an aiming device and he would walk up and shoot people. Allen went on saying that it would be without motive and how difficult it would be for the police to investigate. Sure. Allen stated that he would send notes to police or authorities to harass and lead them astray and he would then cite the notes Zodiac. Because he had a watch that said Zodiac.

Right. And so did the police investigate him and they just cleared him? Yes. Well, we'll get into it really quick. He also talked about the shooting. You could shoot the tires of a school bus and pick off the little darlings as they come bouncing off the bus. Sure, sure.

Yeah. And when they got him... He nailed it. I mean, either this man is like a psychic and just knew what was going to happen. But it was amazing when the police went to go speak with him. Basically, they went to go speak with him and they're like, what's up? Arthur, what's going on? He's like, nothing.

You know, just so you know, I got two knives in the back of my car. They got blood on him because it's chicken blood. And they're like... Chicken blood? Okay, very good. He's honest. He's volunteering that information. It was just like, you know, my favorite, you know, I would never do something because

I really respect you guys. You know, I really hope that one day that we can all just like get to a point where people stop calling pigs like cops pigs. I like this guy. He is so nice. And then at the very end, again, unprompted as they left, he was like, you know, my favorite book is the most dangerous game. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah. He's a reader. Yeah. And they say that in a lot of police investigations, the one who is most eager to help out the police... Oh, yeah. ...many times is the guy that is your main suspect. He straight up called them after they were done with him and said, any help I could give

you, I'd love to. I'd love to hook you up. Do you want to hear his own words? Oh, here's... Pretty much turning himself in. Oh, you want to hear his buddy? Do you want to hear his buddy talking about it? Yeah.

Here's that. Here's that. This gives you a little bit more info, a little bit more insight onto who Arthur Lee Allen was. Okay. Remember that he did work with kids for a brief period of time and loved it just a little too much. Why could I argue much too much?

I loved it. Far too much. It was like a pork factory. That's right. You'd be fired immediately. I wasn't eating all the pork. You were only dressed in purple like Willy Wonka. Yeah, yeah.

Aha! A glorious dream. And he was fired from this job for reasons that will be explained here, sure. And this is probably his shadiest friend. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It seems like Richard Gronk. Yeah, one of the shadiest men on the face of life. And later I found out he was really arrested for...

He really was fired for travel at the station. He was teaching trampoline to those little girls over there. You don't have to teach trampoline, by the way. He wanted to be a teacher. He liked the children's world. He liked kids. He liked to be a part of that world. To what extent I didn't appreciate it at the time.

Appreciate it. He went a little too far with it, obviously. But he enjoyed children and they loved him. He admitted to using the screams of a child as a sex story. Yeah, yes he did. He enjoyed the screams of a child being beaten. He told me once that he had been a victim of cryptorchidism in his adolescence, up until his adolescence.

And it hadn't been diagnosed or treated until then. The testes are undescended. And what that does, of course, is it would postpone. The development of male secondary sex characteristics until the testes are surgically brought down into this scrotum. I mean, he had a lot going against him. He had a lot going against him. If a serial killer is about to shoot you, just take a stab in the dark and be like,

You got no nuts! You got no balls! I hope you didn't. Oh, now he's crying. Now give me your gun. He was throwing me! It's true! It's literally the lack of testicles that made him do all this.

But mostly all of the, what we're going to see is also the common thread of the most of the reason why these suspects are rejected is because there was one print that was caught by police that they believed this to a, that was a big set of like nine-pound sack of nuts. Detective Popcorn, did you feel his balls? Did you feel his balls? It was like a sack full of greasy hamburgers. Well, he's definitely off the list. So there was like one palm print that they got and basically Arthur Lee Allen did not

match the palm print. And I mean, but again, gun collector owned several machetes, was in the thing at the time, talked about the murders, was into it. Literally told his friend exactly what he was going to do and then did it. Here's some of the other things that make this, that this isn't a hundred percent locked up case. No, of course not. This isn't, because this, there are many different things involved in this like it

could be that. He passed the polygraph test. Okay, so what are some things that discredit Mr. Arthur here? He passed the polygraph test, or he passed the polygraph test, one. Number two, they compared the DNA on the stamps of the letters that were sent to the San Francisco Herald with Arthur Lee Allen's DNA and it wasn't a match. However, there is, god damn it, there is one, there is an explanation for that, but this explanation only came out after they had said his DNA didn't match because Dick Cheney wants

this to be true. Yeah, Don Cheney. Don Cheney. Don Cheney. Don Cheney probably does too. Dick Cheney is the Zodiac killer. Don Cheney wants all this to be true very, very badly. And so after it came out that it said that he was, that the stamps didn't match up.

And this is Cheney. Don Cheney evidence of the 60s and 70s. No, this is very recent. Oh, very recent. Yeah. This is extremely recent. Don came out and said like, well, you know, I do remember one day where it was about 1968 where he had me lick a bunch of stamps.

He had me lick a bunch of the stationary. It was a licking stamp for the best friend day. It was a licking stamp for the best friend day. It was a licking stamp for the best friend day. I remember licking stamps for you. Hey, man, could you, hey, could you hold this knife for me? Just. Wave it around a little bit.

Oh, thanks. Thank you, buddy. I'm just going to take over this napkin. You want to sweat on the knife? Yeah. Henry. Did you? Henry.

Is that police sirens I hear? Am I? I swear to God, officer. And I think. And I think. Get the giant. The giant murderer. Henry just rolls up right behind him.

Yeah, that's him. Yeah. I've seen him. I told him not to lick those stamps. God damn it. And I think some of Cheney's statements are a little too on the nose where it says like, I remember him saying the, about kiddies bounding out of buses, like you just were quoting the letter.

Right. You know, some of those things do add up, but not. And obviously he's not a bright man. Yeah. And he wants, he wants some space. But however, I don't believe that the Zodiac has to be a bright man. No. And no, I'd say his friend, Mr. Cheney here.

He's really cheney. So he might, I agree. So he came up with these ideas after the fact, right? Exactly. I mean, it's possible. And Arthur Lee Allen is the best. He is the best suspect. He just seems like the number one suspect that everyone has.

And you want to just hear the words from his own mouth saying that he didn't do it? Absolutely. This is Arthur Lee Allen speaking in 1991 and he in a dark room and he is a big fat John Wayne Gacy looking loner, fat dude type. Yes. A worst clown though. I couldn't murder anyone. It's difficult as hell and it can be, it could be terribly depressing.

And if I deserved any of it, that would be something different, but I don't. There are two types of liars in the world, fishermen and policemen, and not necessarily in that order. Woo! There we go. Maybe he is a better clown than John Wayne Gacy. Yeah, absolutely. I love that.

That's my favorite statement. Yeah. Yeah. Two types of liars. But he, yeah, so that's Arthur Lee Allen. He died of being fucking old and fat and alone. That's what he died of. That was the official on the coroner's report.

Yeah. It's like he died of neglect of soul, you know, like he just like left in a chair. He was, you know, he sucked on girls with gynecology. Yeah. Quick question though. Mark, is it possible, if you're a true sociopath, can you pass a lie detector test? If you're a true sociopath, right? Yeah.

That is true. Okay. So that's just the, and that's just fucking the first inch of this hole. We could do this for fucking seven hours. We can keep going. We've got at least 15 to 20 more minutes. Let's keep going. Let's get into some lesser known suspects, but still very plausible people.

Let's do the next, the big one is the Unabomber. There's a lot of people who do believe that Unabomber may have also been involved in these crimes. Number one, Ted Kazinsky would write in his diaries very often that he didn't fit into the society and he didn't want to fit in. Right. It really fits a lot of the things he said. He's a mathematical mind.

Also learned after the fact that Ted Kazinsky chopped his own dick off. Really? Did you know that? I did not know that. How did we not know that? He had such problems with sexuality that he cut his own penis off. You know what? That's taken into your own hands.

I actually respect him for that. I'm just saying that that's a part of it. He's an answer society thing. Right. And a lot of people out there would be like, you know, so he's got a lot of, like the amount of evidence that says that he's a Zodiac killer is like really huge. Now, there's a website that's called the, what is it, the, what do I have? It is here.

It is the Unazod.com that talks about all the different connections between Zodiac and him. And the only things that are like really just like blocking Ted Kazinsky as being the Zodiac killer is that number one is Prince so match, which I mean, it's just not a number because in the end it's just like, how do we even know that the prince that they have are the prince of the Zodiac killer? Right? The, how they know though, I believe those, those fingerprints are from one of the letters.

How do we know? His friend. I mean, hell, if his friends look at stamps for him. I'm just saying, how do we know? God, no. How do we know? No. We don't know.

We only have. No. We know what the police want to say, but what if they're doing it? You're changing. Okay. Let's go back. Let's go back. The next one.

Number one. Ted Kazinsky. His handwriting. In the number two. His handwriting doesn't match. Okay. So again, how do we know that the Zodiac even wrote it? And I'll only put a little, I want to do one.

There is a thing here comparing his writings from the Ted Kazinsky to the Unabomber. Right. It shows the Unabomber to Zodiac. And here's Zodiac. Well, it would cheer me up considerably if I saw a lot of people wearing my buttons. Please know nasty ones like Melvins. Thank you. Like the Melvins?

They compared to the letter of Ted Kazinsky writing from jail on my commissary list dated 12, 11, 01. I ordered tuna and 51 sent stamps. Today I received the tuna, but I did not receive the stamps. Will you please explain? Thank you. You're the Unabomber. We don't care about you.

You're probably not going to get your stamps. He's trying to write to Mad Magazine. So that was the thing that they said there was their fold over picture in the last Mad Magazine. It was not the princess that they said it was going to be. Yeah. It was not Princess Leia. And then another one is like, they're trying to say that Ted Kazinsky couldn't do the

crime because he was living in Chicago. Which is possible. That one. I, you know, that's not me. Like, what are you taught? You mean to tell me in a sense right here. Um, all right. So the David Kazinsky informed the FBI that shortly after Ted's June 30th, 1969 resignation

from Berkeley, so he was at Berkeley College in 1968. So he was there for six months. All right. Interesting. Think about, okay. So interesting. And if you need more information, Douglas Oswell and Michael Rusconi to Amateur Investigators, they publish.

There's a lot of amateur investigators. They always list themselves as amateur investigators. I think it means not investigating. I am an amateur investigator. And they want hands. They fat dude in a bathing suit. Sweaty. In a basement of a comedy club.

That's right. Yeah. Well, they published their findings on a CD-ROM book if you want to find out. Okay. A CD-ROM book. All right. So real quick. Let's just organize Ted Kazinsky.

Uh, not in his favor. Fingerprints. Handwriting. Location. In his favor. He was at Berkeley in 1968. Yeah. And he's a psychopath.

And he's a psychopath. And also it says that Kazinsky happened to have made no mention of the Zodiac crimes or killings or drawings of the Zodiac symbol or anything about anything about Zodiac crimes during his tenure as a Unabomber. And so then that would make him the Zodiac because he didn't mention the Zodiac? Well, no, that says that he couldn't maybe not be the Zodiac. But who's to say that the Zodiac would mention his name or any of his crimes and any of his copious diaries or his manifesto?

Waiter, check please. Check please, waiter. I'm going to end this terrible first date. Check or an entire pint of whiskey if I'm going to sit through any more of this. I'm going to put this out there for any single members of the last podcast. So like, if you ever just want to end a bad date. That's it. Just start getting through the Unabomber.

Just channel your Hong Kong Henry Zabrowski and I'll promise you that date will be over. There's other evidence such as how we know that Unabomber was a very intelligent man who was very good with bombs. The Zodiac killer worked on a bus bomb for forever. Okay. He could never get it going. He could never get it. He could never get it done.

And here's, the bus bomber is also, there's something in here that tells me that he was not an intelligent man and that the misspellings were not calculated because if you look through all of his letters, he misspells so many simple words. He misspells Christmas. He misspells there. But BCK killer did it too. Here's, I've got, I've got, here's what, here's my angle. We have an angle.

We've got an angle here people. Here's my angle. Okay, he misspelled all of these words, but he spelled ammonium nitrate fertilizer perfectly. Well, cause he looked it up in a dictionary. He had it. I think he had a bottle sitting in front of him. Yeah. He had the bottle sitting right in front.

He had the bag in his kitchen. He wanted to make sure that he could spell ammonium nitrate fertilizer because what the Zodiac wanted to do more than anything is prove how fucking smart he was. Right. And he was desperate to show everyone what a genius he was because then later on what we find it, what we're going to get into, I guess right now with the radian theory. Are you right? We can get into the, we can get into the radian theory in a little while, but let's do, let's

uh, okay. So we have Ted Kaczynski here. Let's get, let's, let's do another suspect. Yeah. Of course. No. Well, I also want to say that Christmas, the way it's spelled wrong, Christmas, the way it's spelled wrong in the original letters, they showed one of the childhood friends

of Arthur Ely Allen showed a Christmas card from him and when she misspelled it the same exact way. Again. Another red herring. Yes. Or a clue. You could call it. I think that's the opposite of red herring.

I don't know. No, that's fine. That's fine. Amateur investigator, Henry Zabrowski. Oh, is this a new character? No, it's just me. This is the real me. Yeah.

That's the sad thing. Yeah. So the next one is, um, okay, I'm going to even begin to even attempt to describe this next theory. It's called the radian theory. It's written by a guy named Gareth Penn, who was an amateur investigator who wrote a book called time 17 again. So the, when the Zodiac sent his cryptograms in, they were 17, whatever his units long

and 24 lines deep. And this meant something. Right. He says it's called time 17. He said that the Zodiac was the most ingenious serial killer of all time and used. So what happened? Zodiac sent a map and one of his later letters going on saying, you will find something very interesting if you follow this map showed a circle around the Zodiac symbol or around

a place called Mount Diablo and he sent this to a newspaper and he sent this to a newspaper and he says like, you use this radian thing, right? Which is a, a geographical, a geometrical thing that is a way to dissect an angle. You dissect it at 45 degrees. And what you do is he said, if you follow this radian from here to here, and here's a parameter, we're going to set the Zodiac symbol with a bunch of numbers around it that he put. If you do all this, you're going to find something really interesting.

Okay. So he's decided, well, this guy is some kind of genius where they think it is, is that it's supposed to show some kind of murder site. It's all nonsense. It's nonsense. So it's like, it's all not, but what he says is the way he configured it is that he put the riverside killings and another killing on the lines of the radian. He says it matches up.

So he started writing this book. This book is 700 pages long and it is a breakdown of the entire cryptogram mixed with the numbers that he put in this and it is, it is indecipherable. And what he wrote is basically this idea. What he, what it boils down to is he's like, okay, so he's a genius mathematician. Number two, he, all of the crimes happen around locations that featured names of water things in them. Right.

And so water, water, what's water, H2O, H2O, right, H2O, right, H2H, two H's, two H's, H2O, right, boom, H.H.O. His name is H.H.O. Huh. What am I going to do here? It goes to directories of all your daughter's birthday. It's your daughter's birthday. He finds a man named Michael Henry O'Hare and he's like, Oh, it's not H H O.

It's H O H Michael O'Hare is a Zodiac killer. So what Garret Penn starts doing is writing letters to this random man who is he works for MIT. He's a physicist. He starts yelling at this guy. He just sends him letters basically saying like you're a f***er of five teenagers. He tried to get vigilantes to go kill him, he tried to do all this stuff, but it ruins this man's life.

Yeah, I guess that's what happened. So what happens is that he starts getting calls at 2.15 in the morning, he gets a hold of his number, Gareth Penn starts calling him, calling him at like 2.14, 2.16 and when he picks it up. In the morning. Yes, when he starts realizing when Michael Hare f***s because Michael Hare is a genius because he's a f***ing physics teacher for MIT, he's just like, oh my god, he's calling me on numbers that correlates to police codes in San Francisco and that's what he's doing.

So what happened was is that people started harassing Gareth Penn by calling him late at night, right? Gareth Penn thinks it's Michael O'Hare calling him, so then he calls Michael O'Hare in the middle of the night thinking that it's all going back and forth and they're having this like mind game between the ultimate detective and a serial killer and it's funny and I can't win. The book's insane. Okay, what's, what's a more difficult, difficult book to read, David Ike's The Biggest Secret?

David Ike's Biggest Secret is just, you know, or, or Mr. Penn's book about the Zodiac. If there's a read, read sections of this. Yeah, the book is called Times 17. Okay. In late December 1968, he had murdered two teenagers in a lover's lane near Vallejo using a.22 caliber firearm. Seven months later, he attacked a couple in another lover's lane at Blue Rock Springs Golf Course, also near Vallejo, this time with a 9mm automatic pistol.

Okay. I was curious to discover what the Zodiac had met, oh, then he drove about five miles into the heart of the city of Vallejo to report the crime to the police from a payphone about four blocks in the police station. I was curious to discover what the Zodiac had meant by this rather bizarre suggestion. I bought a sheet of clear acetate and a marking pin. Using a protractor and a straight edge, I drew an angle of between 57 and 58 degrees on the acetate and then laid the acetate over a map of the Bay Area.

I placed the apex of the angle on Mount Diablo, then rotated the angle around until one leg passed through the scene of the murder at Blue Rock Springs, then I felt as if a ton of bricks had fallen on me. The other leg of the angle went straight through Presidio Heights in San Francisco where the Zodiac had murdered the cabbie. It was the most shocking experience of my entire life. I can blow in the lid open. Dominoes is here.

This is how the end, so, and then what's another one, you know, and then another, so that's just one theory. Okay, so right. And then there's a lot of people who saying that Gareth Penn was a Zodiac killer of course because he's a maniac, and then there's some people, there's another theory altogether which is true. Michael Alhair's mother was a very famous avant-garde artist in the play group called the New York Group.

She was shacking up with another dude. They will, like, have a most, like, live-together relationship because it was the 70s, right? 60s. Some people start being like, Gareth Penn is the publicist for the Zodiac killer. The Zodiac killer is a publicist? Michael Alhair is the trigger man, right? Actually making the moves. His mother is making the calls because she's designing it as an gigantic art project.

Are they the fucking Beagle Boys? Are they a goddamn cartoon? The mom is making the calls here? Is that what's happening? I mean, I think it's what's happening. It's an avant-garde art project, it is right. So let's just organize- it is the greatest art project of the 20th century. You ol Dali!

Fuck Picasso! Do you remember the gates? Lord, I don't know what I did to deserve these friends. I don't know what I did to deserve these friends. Do you want to hear me say? Oh wait, no, okay, yes, we can hear about Sam Espain, but let's just organize real quick because we have the Unibom, right? That's about Michael O'Hare as a possibility.

Gareth Penn. Michael O'Hare's mother. Michael O'Hare's mother. Okay. are on the list of suspects. So far, I feel like Ashley, Arthur Lee, is the number one. Yeah, Arthur Lee Allen is, I mean, yeah, technically. Yeah, technically, he seems most reasonable with this.

Now let's get into what's actually going on. All right, yes. So Marcus, we have something on satanic cults and the possible connection there. Sherry Joe Bates. Sherry. Necessary. Okay.

For the purposes. Just a fulcrum of the fucking events. Necessary. All right, all right. For another paradigm just blown wide open. They're gonna, we're not gonna be allowed to put this podcast on the air because they're gonna fucking, cause it's going to, it's the root.

M.P. Ultra. Dr. Green. We're looking at the fucking operation paper clip. What does this have to do with operation paper clip right now? Let's get into it, Marcus. Take it away. All right.

I'm tired. All right, I'm soaked. I know, I'm having too much fun with this one. Sherry Joe Bates. All right. First murder. All Hallows Eve. Interesting.

The most important of Satanic holidays right behind one's own birthday. Mine, May 1st. Yeah, there you go. My birthday is today. May 1st, May day. That's right, we forgot. What was it?

Yeah. May 1st, May day, also a Satanic holiday. By the way, that was your reaction to my birthday? It was mm. I didn't say mm. He said mm. Okay, I did. I told you happy birthday already.

Thank you. On two different shows. Let's do this, let's do this. All right, get into it. Yeah, get into it. All right. So, Sherry Joe Bates. That's the first one.

Okay. Then, the next two murders, the ones that are at the Lovers Lane, that happens right before the Winter Solstice. Satanic thing again. Another Satanic thing. The third and fourth victims. Hail Satan.

Hail Satan. Hail Satan. Hail Satan. They were also rumored, some of these people were rumored to be in with Satanists and drug dealers. You're just saying, yeah, what's your name? The woman.

The woman. From the first murder. Yes. She knew the killer. Okay. And that's why she got out of the car. Because they just had got done having illicit sex. So, he didn't demand her out of the car at gunpoint.

She got out willingly. Yeah, going, oh, Satanic brother. Oh, hello. And he's like, oh, Hail Satan. And bam, bam, she's like, why are you killing me? I can't believe it. So, after that, that's when the costume comes out. Some say that his costume mimicked that of Alistair Crowley.

Sure. He did. The driver was killed the day before Alistair Crowley's birthday. Birthday, it's a birthday gift to Alistair Crowley. Exactly. I didn't want to miss the big day. You got to kill it early.

And then the first letter was requested to be published on August 1st. It had to be published on August 1st, which is the occult holiday, Lamas. Yes. Okay. And what's Lamas celebration? It's about big hairy goats.

It's about big hairy goats. Big long Argentinian goats. Lamas. Lamas. Lamas. Okay, it's just, it's very literal. It's, of course, it's one of the old pagan holidays. It's a wheat harvest holiday.

So, the harvest, harvesting souls. Sure. We're making linens, Kulkals. Oh, so how do they make linens? Well, I love their summer ale. Because it does play into the, all of this plays into the cipher. Because everything, as in the radian theory,

all of this stuff centers upon Mount Diablo. Mount Devil's Satan. The Devil's Mountain. So this, it plays into the possibility that, yes, this man was killing people to become slaves for him in the afterlife in hell. Right, that's where this comes in. Right.

That's where that comes in. And that's why that's real. And then also, same thing. I agree. And where did Dr. Mengele get involved? Yeah, exactly. As we were saying earlier, the Thule Society Nazis are involved,

white supremacists are involved. All right. Because Dr. Mengele was the Zodiac killer, in addition to being the Boston Strangler and the perpetrator of the 2001 anthrax attacks, all three were the work of one Dr. Joseph Mengele. I'm standing up out of my chair, right? I'm standing up with you.

Yeah, if Dr. Green wants to come at us, right? Because you know he's still fucking alive. Yeah, Dr. Green is the alias of Dr. Joseph Mengele. The CIA has been lying to us. I have got a shotgun put, I got it up against my door. Anybody comes in that fucking door. I just knocked my headphones off my head.

Yeah. All right? Everybody comes through that door. Very intense. Two loads of fucking shotgun blasts. And you hear that Dr. fucking Mengele? Dr. Mengele is not gonna be coming through your door anytime soon.

I know what's going on. Let's just take it easy for one second here. So let's go back because we introduced Dr. Mengele. I mean, obviously this is a very large introduction. I mean, It's more just like, Oh, now you're normal again. I'm just saying,

it's just more like, if there's gonna be Satanists involved, I mean, he's gonna be there. Sure. Okay. I see. There's no real clear cut evidence that Dr. Mengele is the Zodiac killer.

No. As of now. As of right now. I found no evidence other than a few. Some dude just going, Dr. Mengele did. How bad do you have to want it for it to be true? It was the same,

like three paragraphs copied and pasted on like five different websites. There was no, there was no fucking evidence whatsoever. Just sad. I wanted there to be so much evidence. There was not even, the only evidence of some fucking guy

on Godlike Productions said it was Mengele. Yeah. It's just fun. And the other one is there was another guy named, I forget it's like Lafayette, who just recently wrote a book that also, that's a part of the San Francisco cops were organizing it. And there was a guy named that he won't name, but he gave him,

it's like his code name for him is George Rafferty. And the only evidence that he'll give is that he saw him at a common gay nightlife spot. Which he was just there to be, he wasn't having sex with the bunch of you. I wanted you to check out the scene. And he saw this dude that looks so evil that he'll always remember his face.

Yeah. And that's a Sodiak killer. He just wrote a whole book about it saying the San Frans, and he was a cop. It sounds like he went to San Francisco and had a quiet night. I think so. And had they don't talk about what happened to the bathroom in the evening.

Yeah. Yeah. Shadow night. That's right. All right. So it seems to me as if Arthur Lee Allen is the one. I think again, the whole point of this episode is we tried our best to clearly deliver some information to you. Just know this is as clear as it gets.

It is. This is it. This is it. This is as much as we tried. I'm so glad it's hot in my head. It's over. I'm so happy to have you guys back. You know, I feel like there's a small extra system that just occurred. I can finally go back to life.

Please. We can just do normal serial killers after this. Yeah. Right, Marcus? Normal serial killers with evidence. I'm gonna need you guys back in my life. Actual evidence. We could do some aliens stuff now.

Aliens is just so much clearer than this. It's just easy. I mean, we could do aliens and demons. We could probably do this for another 10 hours as well. Yeah. Yeah, we didn't even touch up. We didn't even touch how Charles Manson could have done it or the guy who did the Black Dahlia murders

could have done it. And then there was, and then... We're just stopping you. Henry's brain is officially broken. We didn't even get into the multiple personalities theory. Oh, do you mean personalities? I just feel like my children... I will get you ice cream on Tuesday when I get paid.

Okay, everything is fine. Wish you had a better job. Ha ha ha ha! Thank you guys so much for listening. Magustalations. Magustalations. Hail me! Hail game.

Hail yourself. Hail Satan. Hail Satan. Hail Satan. Of course, above all. Oh, and can we just quickly for Ben? Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday to you. He's 44 years old. Yes, I look older. Lot of show for it. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening, and thank you for all the birthday wishes on Facebook. I got none. You don't put your birthday on Facebook.

I know. I know. Goodbye. Hail Satan. Hail Satan.