Last Podcast On The Left - Library of the Dead: An Interview with T.L. Huchu

Episode Date: December 24, 2021

We're taking a holiday break this week, so we've unlocked one of our many Patreon interviews...On this episode: Ben 'n' Henry sit down with author T.L. Huchu to chat about mysticism, the haunted city of Edinburgh, and writing paranormal fiction.Read T.L. Huchu's new book: THE LIBRARY OF THE DEAD 

Hey, what's up, everyone? How you doing? Ben Kissel here, along with Henry Zabrowski. Yeah. Thank you all so much for giving to our Patreon. Without you or nothing, we love you. Thank you so much. Today, we are honored to have with us, evidently, he's a BMX biker, but he's also an author, and I think that's what we're here to talk about. That's the big thing, because we can't really say too much about BMX tricks. I broke a bike once when I sat on it. The man that we're speaking with today is the author of the new awesome book, The Library of the Dead, T.L. Huchu.

Thank you so much for being on the show, T.L. Thank you guys for having that, man. Your podcast is super dope. Aw, thank you. I'm also a distance runner, just to make you feel fat, you know. Fuck you, buddy. Fuck you and fuck this. I have no abilities. I have to go to a long doctor. That's what they're telling me now.

Yeah, apparently Henry got a smoker, so he's just been smoking meats like Mark Zuckerberg. And evidently, that raises the cholesterol. It doesn't help you thrive in life. Just all the smoked barbecue meat. Come on, if I had known I'd be like chatting with couch potatoes, I wouldn't have done that. I did it. We're not the same, bro. To do it with my life. I would do this. T.L., it is great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming. I know you're near Edinburgh. It's after midnight where you are.

And we had a chance to actually explore that region a little bit. In 2019, we did a bit of a tour out there. And I must say, what a fun, spooky town that is. I want to pick your brain because your book, The Library of the Dead, is essentially like, this is your first fantasy novel, but this is about the ghosts of Edinburgh, correct? You are correct. Have you ever experienced a paranormal event in Edinburgh? I wish I had. I mean, when I was a student and sort of going out a lot and getting smashed

and all the rest of that stuff that I wouldn't do now because I'm older. There's just these parts of the city that kind of have this spooky feel to them. But I've never actually seen anything. I mean, I know of people who have kind of witnessed manifestations of some sort, but it's never happened to me. It's the kind of thing that always happens to someone else. So it seems it's maybe someone who would be truly horrified by it. It's the same reason that Henry Zabrowski will never see an alien.

I'll probably be the one getting anally probed and just be like, are you guys back her spans? Because I don't want it. Henry wants it so much. Perhaps you're looking too hard for a ghost love and they avoid you. The thing about it is like, especially with aliens, I'd love to meet them. I'm one of those people that don't believe we're the only ones there. Of course. I'm also not particularly religious.

So, you know, I'm a lapsed Catholic and atheist. Yes. So I believe this reality is all there is. But, you know, every so often the floorboards creak when you're at home at night and you do get this feeling that there might just be a little bit more there. So I don't know, but when it comes to writing about ghosts, it's fun, man. It's a lot of fun because ghosts, they don't just represent like a spiritual kind of entity. For me, they represent an interaction with history, with the past.

This is the past seeping into the present because we all have this idea that time is linear. We are in the present kind of hurtling into the future and the past is a whole different country. But if you really think about it, the past is with us all the time. It's pretty much what constructs the present. And so for me, I use the ghosts to play around with Scottish history. So there's a lot of Scottish history in the novel. And as the series progresses, you will find that I'll be bringing in these big characters from Scottish history. And yeah, that's the whole idea behind the Library of the Dead.

We're just getting it, getting started. Seriously, man. Edinburgh, of all the places we've been, talk about a play. Really, you can see the history. I mean, in America, there's bones and all the walls. Yeah, like I have never felt so surrounded by ghosts as I did in Edinburgh. Like you go there and they I feel like there is more that in that environment where you go and you you can really see the buildings that are hundreds and hundreds of years old that have been the same for forever. And that the Edinburgh also has like a very fucked up dark history as well.

Oh, definitely 100%. I mean, you get the sort of like sanitized touristy, you know, topic vibe that's going on now. But the past is pretty brutal. And one of the things that I do in the novel, because what you find when you read it is is that it is not Edinburgh as it is today. Now, some people have said it's a bit of a dystopian Edinburgh. But pretty much I brought in elements of the past into this timeline that I'm writing. And so you get electric vehicles alongside horse drawn carts and stuff like that supposed to fuck with the reader, right? But the Edinburgh that you see today is also a bit of an illusion in the sense that it's a pretty big city. Most people only come in and they see that sort of the old town and the new town in the center, right?

And it gives you that history and that grandeur. And now you got the Harry Potter connection too, right? So then you have the whole Harry Potter was written there. So it has all of that weird kind of tourism. Now, into a tuition perhaps. Yo, what? You think we're all writing fantasy now? It's like, where's my billion bucks? You know what I mean? Well, you'll get there soon.

Edinburgh is like this great place to be a writer because there's like a strong literary history. If you think of, what's the dude who wrote Jekyll and Hyde? Stevenson. Oh, Louis Stevenson. Yeah. Yep. You think of, you know, Walter Scott, the historical novelist. I could go on and on. Yes. It's a great place to be a writer.

But that Edinburgh that you see constantly sort of like represented in film and in art isn't all there is to Edinburgh. Now, I live on the outskirts of the city on an estate called Westerels, which is kind of like a post war development. It's not the part of Edinburgh that you find on postcards. Sure. Yeah. We drove through it. We drove. I remember driving through the UK and you were like, oh, it's not all castles and shit. No, it's very great.

It's like, you've got these beautiful, there's also very small towns, like we drove some very pretty, pretty small towns, but it's not until you get into actual Edinburgh and you like see like, oh, there's like a, there's like a magic castle in the middle of this. There you go. And that's the thing. When you think about the UK as a whole, which includes sort of like England, Wales and, you know, Northern Ireland,

you find what they peddle to the rest of the world, right? It's sort of like this downtown Abbey vibe. But that's not most of the UK. That's kind of like a heritage industry thing, which is excellent because there is a lot of like heritage and stuff. But the reality of living there, you know, is radically different from that. I myself am from Zimbabwe. I'm from a small mining town called Bindura, which is like 80 kilometers north of Harare in the capital. And Zimbabwe is like an ex British colony, kind of like you guys,

but it just took us a little bit longer to get independence because we didn't, you know, go around throwing tea into the sea or whatever it is you guys do in America. You got to make the water tasty. You got to make it good that you just sip it and that gives you energy. You have to really hate taxes. Yes. Yeah. And the Brits love tea as well. So I mean,

Oh, that was just an affront. It was ridiculous what they did. Who needs bullets when you have tea? It's the only racist thing done against British people. But again, we're speaking with we're speaking with T.L. Huchu, the author of The Library of the Dead. But what's the bit? So obviously, like, I'm certain it's very different,

but what's like the major differences, like going from Zimbabwe to Edinburgh? Like, how does that change your perspective as an author? Especially in the context of spirituality, ghosts. When it comes to when it comes to this realm that you deal with in the book, was that something that you grew up with in Zimbabwe? Was that something that was expressed? And then when you move to Edinburgh, you know, out of the frying pan into the fryer,

because both of these places are steeped in mystical history. Did you did you take that experience as a child and bring it with you? And then as you're writing this book, I wonder how that influenced the words that were jotted down. Yeah, that's a tricky one for me, because like, Zimbabwe, again, like I say, there's like an ex-British colony. And so a lot of the things that we know about Britain aren't very surprising to me.

And in fact, the disappointment that you get is it's not as shiny and as glossy as what they sold to us, right? Of course. But when I think about ghosts and stuff, I mean, loads of people in Zimbabwe are like religious. I mean, ghosts, the supernatural, that's just like a fact of life. You know, I told you about being raised Catholic and all that, but I was never really like a firm believer in stuff.

I just went to judge because, you know, you had to. Everyone else was doing that kind of thing. Yeah. But so when I moved over, you know, I recognized those elements of, you know, the culture, the Scottish and British culture that had been imported into Zimbabwe. And what I now sort of like do, and this is one of the things

that I enjoyed the most while writing this novel, is bringing those two cultures together. Like Ropa Moyo is the hero of our novel. She is a ghost stalker. So she talks to ghosts for a living. And it's a really low-paid job. It's mundane. You know, she receives a message.

She comes over to you and says, well, this is your dead granddad. Pay me and I'll tell you what he's saying. That's a great concept. You have to mix ghost hunting with capitalism. That's the only way this is going to work. Exactly. Because think about it.

We monetize everything. Everything. Especially now hustle culture. And the quarantine has made it so like, they're like, oh, you like playing the flute? You should try to do that on TikTok. Try to make that money. Like it's this bullshit.

No one can have a hobby. That's what it is. And when I was working on this particular novel, I thought, okay, if magic existed in the real world, we would monetize it. It would just be a job like any other. It wouldn't be the special who there is magic, right? Because think about,

there's a lot of cool stuff on our planet right now. You know, if you think about the technology that we're using to talk just now, this is amazing stuff. But we don't go, oh my God, we're speaking on Zoom or whatever. It's so amazing. We don't do that.

It's just kind of part of our normal reality. And if magic existed, it would be an ordinary thing that some people do. Other people are not so interested. And, you know, if you think of how some people are scientific skeptics, right? They don't believe in the vaccine. They still believe the earth is flat.

There would still be enough people that don't even believe magic exists, right? And that's the reality that I'm trying to sort of like work into this novel. So you find Roper speaks to ghosts and she passes on messages, but the instrument she uses is this Dambira, which is sort of like a thumb piano.

It's a wooden board with metal keys that's used in Shona spiritual ceremonies in Zimbabwe. And she's doing that out in Scotland. So you get this cultural fusion. But the reason that who, you know, I know it's fashionable these days to have these like culture clashes and like, oh my God, identity issues. But no, it's just a reality.

And that's so on the money because that is such a thing that I think that people when they're making stuff about the future or alternative histories, alternative presence where they do that kind of shit where they're like, ooh, this crazy, like they act like something's really crazy, but that's not how real world would actually work. A real built universe.

All of these things would be taken for granted within the universe. So you just have these tools. It's just a tool and then you bounce off those tools and you get into, well, what's the next step? What's the deeper part of this plot? And what does it mean? Well, I'm interested TL as far as some of the research

and prep that you did as well for this book because, you know, it says fiction, but in order to write a piece of fiction, you have to have a lot of real knowledge. Was there anything that you explored when writing this that you were like, this is like to steal a Oprah saying, did you have an aha moment when you were doing research and you're like, this is...

Oh my God, Kissel. Are you channeling Oprah? I channel Oprah all the freaking time. I just ate two pounds of mac and cheese last night. Oh, that is honestly the most Oprah thing you've done. I do a lot of Oprah stuff. I hang out with my guy friends. We pretend we're not gay.

But did you have any of those experiences? Did you have an experience when going through Edinburgh and you're like, this just hit me because I remember one of the things that somebody told me in the church of Edinburgh, they used to just have the guillotine and they would bring it out and they would like guillotine a bunch of people. And everyone's like, yay, yay, yay, yay.

And then they put it in the back and then they're like, now it's time for the sermon. Like it was just speaking of normalizing. The blood used to just run under the feet. I love that story. It's just so trippy. And speaking of normalizing, what we would say is like, that seems extreme.

And they were like, and now it's time for lunch. Was there anything that stood out to you and you're like, that's a great point for this book? Like that's a great fucking angle. The book starts off, I did the short story called Ghost Stalker that was published in 2015. And I had the, you know, the idea of Roper Moyer, the main character.

But I wanted, originally wanted to set it in my hometown of Bindurain Zimbabwe, but it was a bit too small and I just needed a larger canvas to work it on. Now Edinburgh is great because even though it's a small city, what it lacks sort of like in sort of like the special dimension, it's got this deep history and that gives you that temporal layer that you want to work with. So I did quite a bit of, you know, research on Scottish history,

particularly the Scottish Enlightenment, which is a very, very interesting historical period. We were recently there. I didn't know they went through that period because they just tried to fight me at like eight o'clock in the morning. I just remember a lot of people being hammered and being like, big man, come over here, big man. I was like, I can't fight right now.

Please stop challenging me. You must have been in Glasgow. Edinburgh was to the right. Oh yeah, we were in Glasgow. So as I was doing this book now, the fascinating thing about Edinburgh, because it's so full of this rich history that's so easily accessible, you know, stuff comes at you that you originally wouldn't have worked out.

So when I was looking for the entrance for the Library of the Dead, so the library is set in Carlton Hill, which is like in the city centre. And I was looking for a cool entrance and there's all these old graveyards nearby and I went into the old Carlton burial yard, which is kind of where they used to bury like Jews because they couldn't be buried in the Christian cemeteries back in the day and the atheists, anyone who didn't quite fit in was buried out there. Yeah, they had yucky bones, so they had to be in the yucky bone yard.

Yeah, makes all the sense in the world, yeah. So I noticed this really beautiful round New Zolean and I thought, that's going to make a cool entrance. But guess who's buried there? David Hume, the famous philosopher, right? I'm like, okay, I'm going to use this. Hume, what do I know about Hume's skepticism, empiricism, just the big contribution he made to philosophy and science by extension, right?

So now my society of magicians is called the society of skeptical inquirers because there's that legacy that Hume has. But guess who Hume's best friend was? Adam Smith, the Adam Smith economist, right? And so I'm dealing with this magic system that's very, very commercial. So in a sense, the writing process is almost like a call and response thing. You come in with an idea, the city gives you something and then you make these call suggestions as you're writing.

And really, I had a plan when I started, but every so often I get these ideas coming from the city itself that just alters the direction in which I'm moving. And that was just one of those key incidents where it happened and it wouldn't happen anywhere else in the world, I don't think, yeah. I don't think so. It's such a unique city. I think that the word, like, deep, because it's literally deep. Like, the idea of Edward...

I thought of spiritual high-rises. It's really interesting how deep underground the city goes and how much shit happened under the ground. Like, all of the people that died there, reading about the Scottish genocide was so intense. Like, all of these people just getting wiped out and just buried miles and miles and miles underground. Like, gets to a point...

You know, it's asking... It's filled with ghosts. I think even the English were pulled back in sort of like the 17th, 16th century. I mean, Scotland used to just kill witches at an industrial rate. I think in America you had... Like, was it Salem or something like that? Yeah, Salem. We had the Salem witch trials. It didn't seem like it lasted as long as it did in Edinburgh.

We got... We did it all in one big go in America. Yeah, you guys do things big. But in the old world, you know... But you know, I mean... You know, that was one of the amazing things also. You know, to be an ignorant American in this sentiment, we are such a new nation. We are a nation that, you know...

We are 250 years old. So when you go to a place like Edinburgh and you can see the gravestones that say like 1100 to 1130 and you're like, I didn't know that people lived there. They call my house an old house. My house was built in 1940. Exactly. They're like, oh, what an old house I live in.

We don't have that history and we don't have that connection to the past. But what you do have... And this is sort of like one of the funny things. I'll go back to say old... Hooters. We have Hooters. We got Hooters. Honestly, now we're nailed until the tip or gores of the world take the Hooters away. And then where am I going to get my wings?

If you think about it, that burial ground also has this synodap which is dedicated to the Scots who fought in America during the Civil War. So there is this history there of these like Scottish intellectuals and thinkers that wound up in America and that helped sort of like in the founding and the building of America. If you think about... I mean, even people like Frederick Douglass, when he used to go around the world, he came to Edinburgh and gave speeches then

and talking about the abolition of slavery and stuff like that. And he found great support in Scotland because one of the curious things, well, you guys had slavery out in America in Scotland. There's the case of a dude called Wodeben who brought his slave over to America and people were like, well, what the fuck are you doing? Because it just wasn't the done thing in Scotland.

It was something that happened out in the colonies and there was a court case. And the courts in Scotland said, well, we can't have this here and the dude was freed. So there's all this history and this back and forth between America and Scotland that's there. And these are some of the things that I'm exploring in this series. I mean, the first book, the Library of the Dead, that's the setup.

But some of these histories are going to be as we go along. It's fascinating. How many books do you have planned? I have five planned. I'm one of those guys that, you know, I don't like soap operas because when I want something, I want something with an end inside. Dude, I'm the same fucking way.

I have a hard time with the TV shows that go forever and ever and ever. I like an ending. Yeah, and you also get the sense sometimes when you want something that's really good and you think, they're just keeping this thing going just to get our money, just to get us to watch, et cetera. But it's done. The idea is done.

And I don't want to be the guy who's like... Your words to God's ears, honestly, I needed to get one of those jobs where I'm on television for 25 seasons. I'm fine with that. I want one of those, but I don't like to watch them. But I want to be on one. I guess, yeah. I guess it happens for a reason, right?

If people like something, you know, you keep it going. It gives everyone at work. I can understand it, but there's a frustration for me as the viewer just watching something that was really good deteriorate and you're like, come on, just put this thing out of its misery. Yes. Take it behind the barn and shoot it in the head. We're speaking with T.L. Huchu, again, the author of The Library of the Dead.

I'm interested because a lot of our listeners are, you know, they're authors in their own right. When it comes to just doing a five-book arc, do you have all of this organized already? Or as we were talking about a little bit earlier, where inspiration strikes when it strikes, are you, how do you, how much do you plan and how much of a foundation do you give yourself

before you start hunting for your ideas and really figuring out a five-book story arc? Because, you know, Henry and I, we've worked in the literary world slightly. Our friend, Marcus Parks, did a little bit more in the regard of actually writing the book. But we know that system a little bit. Do you have this like, you know, like all penned out

or are you just sort of letting it open itself to you? Is your agent like, what have you done? Don't even bring up agents. Henry, we're trying to have a pure conversation. You know, the thing about it is, I think the great Mike Tyson once said, everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Yeah.

So I came in with an idea and a plan and I'm constantly having to make course corrections because one thing you don't want to do is to force your characters to fit the schema. You've got to sort of like give them the freedom to make their decisions. So what's been happening over time is the plan's been changing and evolving.

So I kind of know that the main points and but the journey to get to those points, you know, it's gone in a very different direction to what I'd originally anticipated. Is that horrifying or comforting? Oh, it's horrifying. I like being in control of my material but you've got to let go, man.

You've got to let go and just, you know, fill your way through the process. Otherwise you're going to have something that's a bit... So that's what's so fascinating because you are in control of the process. You're the one creating these characters but then there's something that hits you where you're just like, no, it's guiding me

and it's so cerebral and crazy. I wanted to ask that because some authors talk about it like that, like the idea that like their characters talk back and they're like, you all of a sudden you're like, your character kind of just doing what it's going to do through your fingers. It almost seems like a possession.

Oh, man, it is that weird. Yeah, it is very weird because when I'm writing, I find even when I'm sending emails because this book has its own sort of like style and tone and stuff, I find even the way I use language is a bit different when I'm actually working on it because it uses quite a bit of slang,

a lot of Scots and stuff like that. And I use Roper syntax and it then becomes a bit weird when someone sends you like a formal email and you've got these apps and shits and stuff because, you know, your mind has been, you know, you've been so into this thing, you're in the zone,

but you do get this flow where it doesn't exactly feel like you're thinking about it. Shit is just coming at you and you're working through it. That's the first draft stage. The technical skill comes like when you start doing like the subsequent drafts,

when you kind of editing the work and chopping and changing and then that's a very different skill set. But initially you kind of go with, you know, you fill your way through it. I know it's kind of fashionable to, because, you know, writing literature, it's not science and stuff.

And we try to make it seem mystical and difficult because we want to justify our existence as authors, right? To say what we're doing is like so important. But it's play as well. This is me, you know, nearly 40, but doing the kind of stuff that kids do every day making up stories and then they, you know, you just work through it.

It's instinct is a big part of it, I think. I find that with the difference between a professional artist and people who like to do things for fun or write things for fun is that you have to, I guess, find a way to get out of your own way and allow yourself to be authentic on one side where you are,

you are as connected to your authentic self as you can and you can then express it with no obstruction, which is actually very difficult, like the idea of getting from the pure part of you and getting it to the page, because I think that that is being authentic is the most difficult thing in the world. And then the second thing is that you also have to learn

how to write in a way that makes sense, because then I think everybody thinks, oh, you could just write it out and then it's like, no, no, no. You have to find a way, it has to read in a way. It has to grammatically make sense. Yeah, and those are like the technical sort of skills you pick up over time, right? This is not my first rodeo.

I mean, I've been writing since the early sort of like 2000s and what I was doing then, you know, at the time I thought I was producing these works of monumental genius, but no, I didn't have the craft, but you picked those up over time. You know, thank God for the ego in the beginning, out of the mouths of babes, because that's also what keeps you going.

We were like, I think I nailed it. I think I crushed that one. From a broadcaster perspective, we've done shows for years, and I remember the third week that we ever recorded, I was like, I think we've reached peak radio. I think we figured this thing out. You go back and you listen and you're just like, wow, cook hot garbage.

Unreal that I said that. What is happening? I know that feeling all too well, man, it sucks, but I think you need that ego, because if you really think about it, go into any bookstore and there's so many books there, no one needs your fucking book, let's be honest, right? But when you're young and you're the shit, right?

You're like, you know, I'm like the next Charles Dickens or whatever, you know, I can do it. And then you get knocked on your ass because you get rejections and stuff, and then you realize you have to learn the craft. But without that initial kind of like... Punch in the face. Yeah, without that,

you couldn't do it otherwise, man. I think all artists, you know, on a podcast like this, you're meant to be humble and stuff, but all artists think they're the shit. Now I know a lot of writers and I'll never date one because I know they're all the most egotistical people alive, man.

Think about your poor girlfriend. I mean, what she has to do and how she has to support you. When you go in there to the factory, you have to go into the writing factory and she hears the clicks of the typewriter and she's like, oh, I can't interrupt him because he'll come out with a croquet mallet.

Yeah. My poor girlfriend is like, doing a PhD, man, so... Oh, she's actually doing something that matters, yeah. She's doing shit that matters. I know, at the end of the day, at the end of the day, I respect a construction worker

more than all three of us combined because I can't build a fucking highway. If it was just us three, if artists controlled the world, this would be horrible. See, and that's the thing exactly because when I think about it and I did have times

when I was younger and angsty going through like this existential shit was like, oh my God, this is so hard. Then I had to do real fucking jobs, man. I mean, whatever I did, like working as a barista in coffee shops and stuff, that is real actual means for work, right?

Oh, yeah, 15 hours on your feet, having people curses your face. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and that's the beauty of this pandemic because in a way, it showed us the people that really met. I mean, things are kind of gradually getting back to normal now and we kind of like

fuck you to all the delivery drivers and all the essential kind of like people that are there, the nurses, et cetera. We don't give a fuck about them anymore, but I think there was something really revealing. In America, we were doing this thing for a hot period of time where people would come out at six o'clock and bang pots and pans to say thank you to the nurses

and I was like, send them money. The last thing they want to hear is more sounds of bedpans clinging together. They need money. I mean, out here, we were kind of like clapping for them on Thursdays and shit like that and I think they got like a one percent pay rise or something like that.

Excuse the money for crying out loud. Anyway, again, we're speaking with T.L. Huchu, the author of the library of the dead. Check this book out. It is the get in on the ground floor of this series. I'm really excited to read this. Because it's going to be a big ass arc. When you started writing, how did you start?

Did you start like blogs? Did you start on the Internet or were you just writing stories and submitting them on your own? Yeah, if someone wants to get into it on the ground floor, how do you do that? Without becoming a Scientologist because all the Comic-Con things are just like,

right, sci-fi and then you find out this is all about Scientology. It's kind of fun. I wouldn't start out the way I did, man. I was in my 20s, got hooked on like Dostoyevsky and those like 19th century Russians. At the time I was reading them, they really were like speaking to, you know, the 21st century Zimbabwin experience.

If you ask me, Dostoyevsky is like the great Zimbabwin novelist, but I got into it and I was like, okay, let me do it. I didn't even have a laptop or anything like that at the time. That's how fucking broke I was, man. So I was writing, you know, by hand on pen and paper, like it was the 19th century.

I mean, my wrist game, you know, at the time I didn't have a girlfriend, so as you can imagine, my wrist game was right, so I could write. The strongest thing. I mean, it must have been horrible getting all that ink on your cock, though. It was writing jerking off, writing jerking off.

We talked about this. I'm a broke ass author. Every writer, we talk about, nothing makes me more furiously masturbate than having a deadline. This is my career dead, man. You know, just because I spoke with you guys, you know, everyone's gonna be like, what a wanker, right?

We already get it. We absorb it for you. Thank you. Thank you. But yeah, you know, and I just started writing. I didn't know any, I didn't know any writers. I'd never been to like a literary festival, anything like that.

So I got a copy of like the Writers and Artists yearbook and started sending my crappy shit out, you know, after I typed it out, you know, don't ask me where I got the laptop because I had this like old secondhand thing that still used floppy disks to work and print out my stuff because you still had to send stuff by paper back in 2003.

Everything really changed over like three or four years because I remember the same thing, paper, paper headshots, like having to get everything printed out and then you show up with a pack of paper. Like, and then it was like, it became digital like over nine months and then it was immediately done. No more paper. And of course that process accelerated after 2020 as well.

I mean, now it's great because you can YouTube how to be a writer. You can YouTube how to get published. I mean, guys like Brandon Sanderson, you can get their lectures online, you know, if you want to write fantasy. There is so much material on Google. I mean, every so often I get sort of like young writers starting out just emailing me, asking for advice.

And, you know, when I look at it, it's like most of the stuff is available to you online if you just Google it. I mean, it's nice to speak with someone. Right. You know, there's MFA's creative writing courses and stuff like that. But I still think deep down for me, because of the way I started it,

that writing is a very sort of like solitary thing. It's just you and the white blank page and you do your thing. I mean, that's where the art happens afterwards. You've got your editors, your literary agents, etc. So it becomes more of a collaborative thing even though it's your name on the cover. I mean, there's a hell of a lot of people. Shout out to my guys at Tor,

who published the Library of the Dead. Tor is great too. And it's nice. I mean, talking about having a talented editor being the difference between you sucking and not. Absolutely. So would you identify as an introvert? Nah.

I'm kind of in between. I like solace and I like time alone, but I also like people, man. So that's sort of a perfect combination to create a writer because I don't know. I'm going to speak for Henry. I'm just going to take it because even if he disagrees with me, I'm going to disagree with him.

But I like, we like a reaction. We like a reaction. I'm desperate for a reaction. You know, it's just so nice when you're in front of a live audience and you say something, even if they don't like it, you're like, no, that didn't work. Or obviously you want the acceptance and in our case, the laughter or the deep thought.

But when it comes to writing, you don't get that. It's a prolonged, delayed process. And that requires a lot of self-faith. And it requires obviously a network as you were talking about. But how is that process for you when writing and how do you, when you hit the final period or exclamation marker, whatever the hell you ended your book with, how do you like, what is that when you're like, I'm done?

Do you get immense? Is it like satisfaction or is an immense panic because now it's time for the judgment zone. Oh God. I mean, I won't lie to you. There is like a lot of neurosis involved in the process because there's two sort of like separate stands to it. But I should say before I go on with this,

that doing stand up or even acting where like you in front of people, that is a lot harder, man. Because you have to be yourself. No, sitting in a room, I would literally, no. Have you ever bombed, man? Have you ever bombed? I would just die if I bombed. I would rather bomb in front of people

than sit in a room and have to write a limerick. I mean, I am bombing when I'm writing alone. Like, I know I'm bombing because it's your silence. So as I sit and I write, I'm like, it sucks, it sucks, it sucks the entire time. Yeah, that's the thing. It wouldn't be like no play or whatever, all that thing that Jack wrote from the show.

You would just be like, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. I would take like that rejection email that comes in and stabs you through the heart anytime because it's a private moment. You get your Kleenex and you weep and then you go on social media and try to pretend everything's all right and you're the coolest person alive, right?

Yeah, of course. And I'm sure that's the only thing you use the Kleenex for as well. Oh, come on. You did it. You actually set yourself up for that. You actually did that. That's your fault.

That's a cheap shot, man. It was cheap. You set it up. That was a layup. But yeah, but I do enjoy the process that comes later on when you are working with the editor. My literary agent, Jamie Cohen at the Ampersand Agency, he was an editor as well. So it starts there and then I work with Bella Pagan at tour.

And one of the weird things is like, when you send your manuscript out there, you think like, well, this is dope. After you've done a couple of rounds of editing and you've had your copy edits and your proofreading and you read the thing later, you're like, shit, this kind of sounds like something that, it reads like something that I would buy in a bookstore.

It's a lot sharper. And their contribution to what you do is immense. And it's a give and take process. It's not like they're dictating what you do. You have these interesting conversations and they also kind of get you, they notice things that you might not notice because you're so close to the work itself.

And after that's done, it's a relief. I mean, I will confess that initially when I get my edit, my reaction is like, well, fuck you, man, you don't get it. But you put them aside for a week or two, you come back and you see that they make perfect sense. Because if you're working with a great editor, one of the things that they will do is sort of like, indicate to you that they understand what it is you're doing.

And once they do that, you will trust them. Absolutely. And then you also are the arbiter. So there are probably things that you still have to fight for in certain aspects. You'd have to probably say, well, this is very important to me that you want to cut. And then you have to kind of figure it out, right?

Yeah. Was there anything in the book specifically that you were like, no, the kid stays in the picture, this is happening because without this and then things can't go forward? Was there any point that you can give just a little sample to our audience about just a character you fought for or a plot you fought for, again, in the library of the dead? Unless they're just always correct.

And you just go like, oh, please, thank you. Thank you for saving me. No, I mean, they get most things, most things, right? I mean, some of the differences, I think, just kind of like stylistic as to when certain information is revealed to the reader. Because I'm sort of like building up a kind of like complex sort of like argument to do with history

and the way the world works. And so I actually need time to bring in certain elements before I reveal certain things. And that's usually kind of like where we are back and forth and it's like the editor is like, yeah, but what does this mean? This doesn't make any sense to the reader. For example, most people think the book is set in a dystopian kind of heading, Brian.

And when people greet each other, they say, God saved the king. So you can kind of tell that there is sort of like a dictatorship or an autocracy based on sort of like a powerful monarch going on. But you don't quite know the reasons for it. And now I could have front loaded that information. But that information, the reason the monarch is there also has to do with the role magic played in society. But I'm writing from Ropamoyo's perspective and my character doesn't know

some of this information yet. So I can't do that reveal yet. It's going to come, but I need a bit more time to set it up properly. But those are the things. And when you have those conversations, it's because they kind of get it. They're like, OK, there is this missing component. They notice that. And so when you say, yeah, but we need a couple more books as we move towards, yeah.

That's my favorite kind of sci-fi and fantasy when you just jump in. And really, it's my favorite when you just you're in a world. Like, yes, there are things you don't yet understand, but that's kind of what draws you into the book is the idea that you're like, all right, well, this has got something to do with something. And eventually they'll tell me or this is the worst book ever made. Like, there'll be something where I'll at least know sort of what's going on. But then like a book like Dahlgren or one of these other things that are

like specifically a mystery that you're supposed to do. The world itself is a mystery that you constantly have to decipher as you read. And what I think about it as well, you know, you spot on with with that analysis, fucking Dahlgren blew my mind, but I still couldn't tell you what I fucking read. I don't know what that book is about, but I know I love that book. Yeah, the language is outstanding. But I mean, that's Delaney. But for me, it's like I think about the world in which we live, right?

And what we perceive. So, you know, I don't think you go about thinking, well, this is happening because Biden, right? I mean, most of the time you don't think about those things. You like these, this, if you were writing a book about American, you're like, there's this great president called Biden, the one who came out of Trump. It will be a bit lame. And so I'm trying to have that sort of like real world through and it's like,

the characters live in this reality. So for them, it's not like some big surprise. It's just Ropa is kind of young. She is 14 going on 15. So politics and stuff like that doesn't really matter to even though the results of the politics are evident in that world. But like any typical teenager, this stuff is like beyond that, but she's gradually being dragged into sort of like a magical society

where some of these things that have happened in the past to create that sort of like dystopic Edinburgh are going to play out. Does this make any sense? Of course. I mean, it just sounds you have to lay the breadcrumbs out in a way where people get rewarded a little bit, but they still got to walk further to get rewarded a little bit. And by the end of it, they've read the entire book and they love the series.

And then it's the their perspective is what's really important. And you're writing it from that. Like that's the idea of like encapsulating how a kid's not going to give a shit really who's president until it really matters to them. And that's what I'm doing. But you're also working in a situation where I mean, the 19th century reader would give you like a lot of time. I mean, think about fucking vanity fair where you get a hundred pages of horses

prancing about or shit like that before anything happens. Yes. Nowadays, readers aren't as forgiving and I can't blame them. I mean, I'm on my phone all the time. You've got to entertain me. So there is a balance to be struck between, you know, the work of art you're trying to create and, you know, how far, you know, the reader will come along on this journey for you.

And that's again, that is the editor's role to kind of indicate some of these things to you to say, OK, this is your vision, but we might need to tweak it here a little bit just to give the reader a little bit more in this particular moment in time just to keep them invested in what's going on here. And I think that's that is fair enough because, you know, I would like to be a sort of like, you know, the self-indulgent writer saying, I'm such a genius, you're going to have to suck my cock anyway. Seriously.

But really, there is someone at the other end and you've got to care about self-life. Absolutely. Whether they're going to get it or not. Yeah. At least they're not immediately just been like, where's the Ewoks? Where are the Ewoks? I missed the Ewoks.

Push some Ewoks in this. We're going to eat jar jar. You know, but really the only the only question I have left is when it comes to your 40 year old man, as we mentioned, nearly 40, I'm 39 and holding as well. I'm July 21st. When's your birthday? 28 September. That's when I turned 39.

Oh, you're not even almost 40. You're just a baby. Get out of here. You guys, you were all just babies. We're all young men. Give me a call when you've got tits like me. All right, buddy. Stop running.

But when it comes to taking your nearly 40 year old man brain and trying to project the emotions of a 14 going on 15 year old girl, how do you do that? Because even when I was playing Last of Us 2, the main character is a teenage girl going through it. And I'm like, I can't deal with these emotions right now. And that's a zombie Holocaust movie or a video game. But like, how do you, how do you put yourself in that mindset to make this character believable?

Does your girlfriend help with that? Like how? I don't know. It just seems like it's a complex character for a nearly 40 year old man to conquer. I mean, that's a tricky one because the way I sort of see it, I mean, you can do a bit of research, but if you do too much of that shit, you are going to default to your stereotypes, right?

Do you think 14 year old girl, so you're going to come up with ridiculous shit like she's looking in a mirror all the time thinking, I'm not pretty and shit like that, right? That's right. That's the kind of stereotype a guy my age would have about teenagers. All I know about teenage girls is from the music video for beautiful by Christina Aguilera. Oh, Jesus Christ.

I mean, I don't know what else they think. I don't know. I know. I'm a Zenial. I'm a Zenial. I'm not dated. But, you know, I, I start with the character. So Ropamoya for me, she's a strategist, right?

She, she's a problem solver. And that's the key aspect of her personality that plays out in the film and film. I haven't even sold film rights. But it's happening now. You're getting. He's already talking. Yeah.

So anyway, um, Priya is an adrenaline junkie at real sick. So that's kind of like her core characteristic. So I work with the core characters. I tried to find the person. And then I had certain elements. I mean, I was lucky enough to be a teenager at one point in my life. I don't know if you guys. I blocked it all out.

I came out 37. Yep. I just crawled into my mother's vagina. And I was like, I need a fucking beer. With a beard. You know, only form horrible for his mom. Horrible. But that's what I'm sort of like doing now is, is working on, on, on their

personality and who they are as people. And then kind of finding some teeny stuff to include in there. Because I think if you get the character right, the readers will forgive you for a lot of things. But the other thing as well is, I mean, this is fiction. So I was a dumb teenager. I wouldn't write about myself as a teen, but your teenage protagonist has to be interesting.

So they have to be more than the normal teen. Right. I mean, this is a girl who is going out and finding missing kids. How many teenagers get to do that? And she battles villainous villains like the midnight milkman. I mean, you don't get to do that because you go to bed. Dude, honestly, that's such a smart perspective. I didn't even really think about that.

Yeah. You can't make a typical teenager. It has to be an atypical teenager specifically. People, people are atypical. Yeah. I mean, everyone's a bit weird. But you want to give them that extra. Yeah.

I love it. T.L. Hooch. Henry, did you have anything else? Because I thought you were just so wonderful. Yeah, man. I'm so excited to read this book. In my mind, I just like, I love that idea.

I love the machine suit. I'm excited. Hell yeah, dude. And I can't even read. I had my wife read it to me a long night. Well, that's a wonderful way to do it. There's an invention called audio books. Oh, yeah.

I know. Audio books. Wait a second. You're talking about plays? Oh, my God. T.L. Hooch. Thank you so much for being on this show, man.

We really appreciate it. We're very late where you are, but go ghost hunt or something. I don't know what people do at night in Edinburgh. They get hammered. I can't believe it. We were fairly certain you were going to be totally lit and completely drunk, but you're totally sober. You're one of the most sober Scottish people I've ever seen.

The most, without a doubt, the most. Thank you very much. I think the only other sort of like sober Scott is Mel Gibson. Well, but he had, but you know, Mel, Mel, he knows. I'm going to get canceled now. You're protected here. He knows what women want. He does.

He knows what women want him to be sober. Everyone wants Mel to be sober. We have to show grace for those. Don't just judge them at their lowest point. That's what I say. Mel, Mel is working on it for my understanding. All right, sugar tits. Hey, huh?

This has been a lot of fun, man. You guys are insane and crazy, but I love it. Your podcast is dope. Thank you for having me. Dude, thank you. Thank you so much. And also, where should people get the book? Is there a specific place you want people to get the book?

Because I know sometimes smaller bookstores are awesome. We always like to support them. Is there a place that you would like people to get the book? If you're in New York, The Strand, because they're doing stuff like it's their sci-fi or fantasy title of the month. Oh, awesome. I went to the Strand.

Bookshop.org. You know, support your local bookstores, Barnes & Noble, if you must, or the evil website that will not be named. Yes, indeed. Let's not mention the name. I think they got enough press. TL, thank you so much for being with us, man.

All right. There was our conversation with TL Huchu, the author of The Library of the Dead. Get this book wherever you want to go. Support your local bookstore and get this book. Every single time we talk to one of these like really good authors, I start to think how, like, they just know how to do this so much better,

and we have no clue what we're doing. When it comes to writing these things. Yeah, that's why they're writers. Yeah, because you think he could do, you think that he could make the unbelievable humor that we do. Do any gas pumps work in this country? Do you think that he could think of that? Do you think he could?

I honestly do think he, I think he could. Okay. Well, TL Huchu, check out everything that he's working on right now. Honestly, what a sweet man. Very funny. Very funny. Yeah, just fantastic. So thank you all so much for listening.

We hope you're doing well out there. And thanks, you know, our Patreon. Thank you all so much for giving to our Patreon. Seriously, thanks for your money. And don't worry, we're putting it to good use. Yeah. It's mostly going to family. Mostly family.

And foster. Yeah, there's a lot. But believe it or not, how nice is that to be able to help? And thank you for helping us because this is, this is what it's all about. All right, everyone. Thank you and hope you're well. Hail yourselves.

Hail Satan. Lagoustalations. Hail Patreon. Oh my God. Oh, thank you, Patreon. I'm going to fucking shoot you. Hail Patreon. Thank you.

We're done. I'm actually going to cancel us. I am canceling the show. Please stop it. Stop this. You're a schmuck. That's in my legal description. Hahaha.