Last Podcast On The Left - Relaxed Fit: Too Cultish for Comfort w/ Amanda Montell

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

This week - Henry & Eddie reveal a very special announcement, the boys discuss breaking new details surrounding the death of Annabelle the Doll's handler, AND THEN author and host of Sounds Like a Cult Podcast, Amanda Montell joins the show to discuss what makes a cult a cult, the differences between cults & religions, her personal connection to the world of cults, Hollywood Cult Culture, and much, much more...Stay Tuned next week for The Great Molasses Flood of 1919 Part II For Live Shows, Merch, and More Visit: www.LastPodcastOnTheLeft.comKevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of Last Podcast on the Left ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

There's no place to escape to. This is the last time. On the left. That's when the cannibalism started. What was that? I wanna dox ourselves, Eddie? I'm gonna tell the audience where you live so they come and see if my pee tastes good So hold on you're gonna send the pee to my house. Oh, no, I'm gonna be in the lawn Oh, you're gonna be there. I'm gonna be on the lawn with my fresh bladder filled front

What front lawn or no backyard backyard at the gate side gate open. Dude I fucking piss all over my backyard but I'm saying I'm going to be putting it in a cup so that our wonderful listeners which one come to your home. Pick one randomly. What a listener to listen to come drink your pee at my house John Reynolds you hear that Johnny you've just been selected to come to Ed Larson's home for Nine er 11 for seven

dumb ass lane It's nice that you don't know these actual facts about my life. Seven. You're an irresponsible friend and it benefits me occasionally. I know the first letter of the street that you live on and Google Maps completes it. And that's all that I need. That's all I need. That's all I need.

Where's my Christmas card? Yeah, I'll show you. I'll show you. We're really full of it. We're filled with it today. Hello. Welcome to it's not side stories It's last podcast on the left, but it's side stories. Yeah My name is Henry Zabrowski. I'm sitting here with Ed Larson. How you doing buddy? I'm Beat will you explain yourself to the people or do you want me to we'll do all this? Let's talk about this real quick quick So just so you know this week we had to change things last minute because I hate to even announce this

There is no announcement. There is no one out. There's no real announcement But I don't really like telling the audience because sometimes they're so mean about things that we are happy about I don't know why it's interesting because everyone thinks I'm the nice one But you're the one that actually listens and cares Well, it's because I work really hard and the show means quite a bit to me I don't know. It seems like it's my entire life And so I don't like telling the audience sometimes the things that we're happy about because they get really angry about things that make us happy sometimes but I

we did actually hit a very historical landmark for last podcast on the left this week. We filmed our first ever television show pilot. And due to my fucked up travel coming back from Salt Lake City, it has fucked with our normal recording schedule of this week. So that is why you have found yourself here, listening to us talk like this.

I mean, you know, you don't have to say it's bad without saying it's bad. What do you mean? Everything's great. Oh, yo, technically everything is awesome. Yes. But this is a part of life. We did just jump right into it.

You mentioned getting stoned before we recorded. Yes. I was excited for that, but we don't have to. I guess the people deserve more than that. Are you stoned now? I took a hit, but nothing crazy. See, I legit, I ate a mushroom pill. Whoa. Good for you, dude. When I brought some, wow. No, I got stuff. I got stuff. I have to put them on the table and you can think about oh wow that's awesome Well guys you see today it really works out so we this we figured that we could at least You know what Wow, we already recorded enough for today. Wow. I feel good now, man. Holy fucking shit. Oh yeah, dude. Good work, guys. Yeah, I took two lions mate and I took one real mushroom pill. Wow. I really wanted to turn it up for you people today. I'm proud of you, man. That's

awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Good work. people today. I'm proud of you, man. That's awesome. Thank you Thank you. Good work. I could work right in his fucking mouthpiece. Yeah. Yeah, you were like a like a grateful dead theme sea lion Good work. Wow, I'm impressed by you in the other side It's very good well, well give you one update. Let's give them one All right, the one update that we have from this week side stories is The fact that we now know that Dan Rivera paranormal researcher for the New England, I believe it's a society of Paranormal research

Nesper you know, it's Nesper. It's now I know it's Nesper, but I want to make sure I have all the the the acronym correct. Okay. So what I love is obviously we he died in his hotel room while road managing for Annabelle the doll. We covered it this week. The whole internet is a buzz. I love the fact that we are still like us leading the way with other I guess paranormal edge podcasts. Yeah have been Really hammering this right between this and we're the only ones covering this story in the Epstein story Annabelle's been hot news for a while. Yes, we're the only ones covering this. All right, is everyone talking about it? I don't listen other shows. No, okay

But I've seen other but my subreddits are talking about it. How do people not care about this? This is insane news. Cause there's some people that are just saying, Oh, it's just some guy who died in hotel room and you guys don't understand. But this is the difference is that we've taken this seriously enough that the coroner and the EMTs have made statements. Number one, coroner hopped on it saying, we are doing the autopsy right now. They are curious. They want to know what happened and they are, they're digging into it. They say it might take a couple of months.

I guess you have to sift through his guts. You have to like, you know, you got to pop open the hatch. You got to play with his balls. But no foul plays is suspected No, not necessarily police report says natural natural, but there's a lot of ways that things naturally happen I mean if Annabel gets up and starts walking around and you have a heart attack is that natural technically but What it seems is we've taken this so seriously that the EMTs had to come out and say no Annabel was not in the room when his body was found so that it means either Annabelle tried to get

an alibi yeah by leaving town oh she grabbed the keys hopped in the car and then left or someone's like hey there's a doll behind that wheel of car also or he left her in the car right what they're, or he left her in the car, right? What they're saying now, he left her in the car, which is, we don't even understand. We always bring all of our stuff, and we're on the road, we take it out of the car, we bring it inside that. He should've brought Annabelle in the car.

Annabelle should be treated better than a dog. So then my question is. That doll is also probably worth, how much do you think Annabelle can get at auction? $1,500. No, I bet she gets like at least. You have to, hundreds. You gotta, yeah. 150 grand at least you have to hundred you got it 150 grand. Yeah, you have to Identify her correctly though. We got a dinner. We don't know. We don't really know. I guess not we don't

Yeah, that could be it is does look new it does but it's my problem with it My other thing is is that he left Annabelle in a hot car all night. Mm-hmm Could Annabelle have a hot car all night. Could Annabelle have gotten revenge for being left in the car? Well, if you're going to leave anything in a car, nighttime is the better time. No, no time. That's when Annabelle gets scared. It is when she gets scared.

Annabelle's used to the company of other demons. Annabelle's used to being in a crowded room of other cursed objects that she can hang out with. It's like that was her community Those are her people. Yeah, Dan Rivera this criminal. He stole her from her community. Yeah, I'm blaming the innocent dead man Yes, they are he pulled her out of her community I mean she should have been sleeping with the ghosts at Gettysburg Who's the name of the guy that got sent to South America accidentally? Everyone was upset about?

Yeah, this is like that the guy who they thought was an MS 13 Yeah, this is like that and a bell got taken from her community now. She's all sclerosis 13 That's what I got actually I got MS 69 Yeah, I can't you're doing the iron lung can't feel my dick and balls But yeah, you know what I'm saying, yeah Jason Hawes Jason Hawes the ghost hunter guy. What's not him? He says recently the world lost a good man Dan Rivera was an army veteran a father of four a husband and someone who truly cared about people

What's even harder to see right now are the posts blaming his death on things like Annabelle the doll. Wow. Why? What is coming from a ghost hunter? So what is he wanted to blame it on? Like blood pressure and cholesterol and shit like, yeah, sure. You know what your job is. Yeah, dude. K-fabe bro. Yeah. Investigate ghost hunter. Yeah, bro. This is your industry, dude! You should be on a plane, a private jet to Gettysburg right now! Absolutely, Annabelle should be lead from place to place in chains! Yes!

You should now, Annabelle should be double locked and you should be driving it around with big tongs and hazmat suits and- Hannibal Lecter style! Pump it up, guys. This is about the industry as a whole, you fucking idiots. Really, like honestly, if it's not real, let's fucking bump this up anyway. Let's make it real.

And put on a show. Come on, motherfuckers. There's stuff out, people have a hard time believing in the paranormal. You need to be, your job is to act dumb. This bitch doll killed your friend You don't give up fuck. Yeah, you give up you for that unless you did talk about I guess this is about again the fentanyl issue in the country, but I don't think again if he's got I don't think necessarily

Had that we talked about it last week. I don't know if he had the getty's Berg, too No, I don't know that you don't want to get it on the Gettysburg choo-choo train, buddy, because it goes straight to the hotel, California. There's no check in, this is you can check in, which you can't check out. All right, you gotta be careful. All right, so Annabelle, so far, has an alibi.

Yes, but I also believe that added alibi also adds a motive to Annabelle so far has an alibi. But I also believe that added alibi also adds a motive to Annabelle. I just don't understand why another person here, ghostly images of Gettysburg manager Christina Rowand is brushing off speculation as well, saying that Riviera's death is related to allegedly haunted Raggedy Ann doll, telling everyone, say there is a logical reason for this

Dan has handled the doll for decades Why now could it not just be natural causes unless it very well could be this man was Living a chili fry and all the doll is inhabited by an ancient Ageless demon entity that thing has been sitting and waiting for its moment at any chance. All it wants to do is to jump into Barron Trump. That's all it wants. It knows the second it has access, it's already in the area. It's close.

That's close enough. This is a demon looking for its shot. Dan Rivera, again, I'm not blaming the dead man, but I am. Let's say he's nine Schlitz is in Yeah, been fucking drinking all day Everyone's telling him he's cool as hell He's kind of like having some fun some groupie some just got some anti groupies in there He's got people hanging out all the ghost adventures scoos are like hanging out. You got all the fucking you get your bros hanging

Maybe you do some dabs and shit next thing. No, you're not fucking maybe thinking so clear, you leave a gap. What do you think happened to Epstein? What do you think did happen to him? Santa Claus did it. Santa Claus? Yeah, dude. Also, you see the thing with the letter that Trump drew the naked woman with big boobies and then uses his signature as the pubic hair.

That's kind of fun. He was too Epstein and he said, here's to another wonderful year of secrets. They're not secrets when you talk about them existing. Here's to another wonderful year of secrets. I got to start writing that more. That's a good way to incriminate your friends post-death you never know you can always write that and also you know what's fun, too You know what you can really always what's great in this country right now What if you want to freak out a dude that you don't know you can be like corner him at any point and just be like

Hey, dude, I Know what you did Cruise man ruin bunch of guys' nights. That's what you gotta do. Start making fake evidence. Put evidence on people. Have fun. Yes, that's a great thing to do.

We need to plant some of this evidence on Dan Rivera. I know it's a little late. Wow. No, no, we don't wanna do, there's already plenty, Eddie. no, we don't want to do it. There's already plenty Eddie Yes, I mean, I don't know there's more evidence against Annabelle the doll than there was against Eddie Yep, you think I think there's a more solid case against Annabelle the doll. Yeah Okay, sadly baby doll instead of baby oil, baby doil baby doll. I'm trying to think of a pun I none of these are working but they're all they all sound gross

We work very hard this week. I would die this week. We're extremely hard. You can't come up with every single Baby oil joke in the world. You're right. You're right Yeah There is something very funny and ironic about them saying that they don't want people turning Dan's death into some bullshit story to generate clicks of attention into some bullshit story to generate clicks of attention. Dude, that's their whole business. That's the whole point. That's all they've ever done.

Lean in. If you want me to pretend like anything you say is real, this is real. Just lean in. For the sake of the rest of us. They've leaned in forever. You're selling. They've killed a cop.

You're on tour with the doll that you are saying is cursed. So let's not all fucking pretend that the whole bit is that Annabelle's doll is cursed. So somebody's gotta help the industry, guys. Zach Bakins is the only one trying and he's not good enough at it. Yeah, you know what? If it wasn't real, if Dan Rivera died of natural causes,

then you should just cancel the entire tour and do a memorial and everyone wear a black armband. The only thing that those people should have done is scrawled demonic letters on his body and put a noose in there, and then we all would be eaten for a month. Yes, it would be great news. For everyone.

And you know who would want this? His kids. Dan would want this. Yes, his family wants this. You know who would want this his kids Dan would want this Yes, his family wants this his you don't think why he died you know what you're saying Dan died for no reason No reason Dan died for no reason his wife. I think it's triple the amount if he's killed by it at all I think that she gets more money or he might not have been able to afford health insurance at all Oh, honestly though if you like say haunt doll, if you put that on the death certificate, I don't know what life insurance you're getting.

They might take, they might not. This might be a whole life insurance thing. Okay. I see what we, okay. Now I think that maybe, yeah, now I'm starting to see how we might be hurting the dialogue. Yeah. If we, if this is really all about. I don't think paying out for the kids. Prudential don't give a fuck. If they're like, oh, haunted

doll. Really? Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. You get nothing. Have you heard of a little place called the street or the gutter? Cause that's where your family will be. Also, how much money could he have? He's in doll money. He's breaking off a piece Oh, yeah, you know the guys over at Nesper really raking it in he's selling out shows man But I think but we got a break off the Annabelle. I mean we sell out shows. It's not that Tony's Sparrow is probably getting a big cut. I think that poor Dan I could bet you right now that they're low ballin Dan I'm already saying this I'm talking I think they're low ballin Dan and I think that he there's no way he was getting the proper cut Mm-hmm. Let me see Tony Sparra. Let's see what he's got. All right, I'm gonna follow him. He's got a ten thousand followers

I think he deserves more. Oh, it's private Tony. You're a star Get off of private most people don't like him. Whoa Man Star get off of private most people don't like him whoa Man I think I mean yeah, yeah, and he did protect the child molester. I guess that one time yeah for a while for a couple of decades yeah but hey His job was to protect an abel the doll and if I Was the guys in the EMTs that now have to deal with this where's an abel now? Where the fuck is Annabelle now?

Oh, she's probably back home in her cage. I don't think so. By the way, is Annabelle not sitting in an evidence room? Evidence locker. Well, she was in the car. If she was in the hotel room, I feel like she might, you would have to put her in an evidence locker. Because what did she see?

Yeah, exactly. Man, what if this whole thing's Robert? Oh my fucking God. What if this whole thing's Robert? If we find out down the road Yeah, he sent Lee Harvey Oswald's ghost to go whack up Dan Rivera was recently in Key West talk shit to Robert left Annabelle finished the job also with the idea of Annabelle's there drinking Robert's milkshake Whoa, if Annabelle's going to. Also, with the idea of Annabelle's there drinking Robert's milkshake. Whoa. If Annabelle's going to Key West, that's Robert's territory. All right.

That's like going to Caprese town. Like it's like going from Jersey down to Florida to see the mix with the Italian mafia in Florida. Everybody's angry. You're cutting in on their business. The haunted doll mafia. Now that's a movie I really want to see. Nothing would make me happier. Just coming for Baggins.

Just the doll father. The doll father, and it's just about something, somebody's going to do something about this Baggins. Somebody's going to do something. It's a little actual Marlon Brando doll. Yeah We have to free Betsy, what's her name? Who's the doll Becky? Who's the doll that Baggins has prisoner? Yeah, where's Becky? Yeah Honestly, I think a lot of this has got to do with Kamala. Yeah Yeah, I think a lot of this just a lot of rage a lot of women are super angry right now

I don't know what for mm-hmm, but they're really really upset Peggy guy I don't know who Becky is yeah, some other bitch. She's talking about some other fucking woman He's got in his mind some soda cotton-stuffed bitch Dirty ass drag along old coos Yes, drag along old coos, made by Becky. And also, people were kind of getting on us for doing some censorship,

but I'm gonna let you guys know right now, if we really want to say the word cunt, I'm gonna say it. Yeah. I just want you to know. Did we censor that? Yeah. I don't know.

No, not that one. No, we're deep in our thing. We want to say it. it's our choice. So if I want to say it, I want to call some woman that I will. Yeah. Or a man or a fucking doll. You cut. I can't. I'm no way safe. Save it. Save it. I see your fucking thing. Got to save it. No. Also, I don't know if we should because she's on a roll. Would you like would you go see Annabelle? Yeah. Yeah, right. Even more so now. I feel that way too. I feel like I'm more I want to go see her more now. Oh, yeah, definitely. This is the best thing that happened to Nesper.

Would you touch her? Because he did touch her right before this happened. Well, yeah, it's his job to touch her. So I am You can't leave her in the car. I hate to go back to this But like what if sick it's stolen that's expensive. I just think that in the end He's like we'll just get another one. I mean, it's gonna fucking know the one Honestly, it's molest somebody in front of that one and that one will get a new one. He does look new I can't get over this fact It's kept very well. So my grandmother was in great shape at 93 Yeah, just because she was a narcissist and full of shit, right? She took great care of herself

Technically, I think she had a great body. Mm-hmm. You're great. Your grandmother. I'm just saying for a 93 year old woman Wow, she kept it like tight in a way interesting. Yeah, I don't like it I'm not saying I'm not admiring her body sounds like you are cuz I didn't even bring it up I'm just saying that she looked you'd be surprised if you would if you had cut the clothes off of her Yeah, you'd be super surprised someone did you could probably ask? Oh, yeah, I got all the morgue pictures. Yeah Yeah, it's not my favorite. I wanted to prove she was dead You wanted to restart rotten calm. Yes grandma's listen. It's called OC It's called I get to farm this material from my family Who's Annabelle killing next

Well, hopefully he's better, right? I mean Tony's got it I mean, do you think he's scared right now? Tony Sparrett is sending some other guy. There's no way it's going to be Tony Sparrett himself who's going to come and handle the situation. He's going to get an intern in there. I think this is the perfect place for a new grad from Delaware Paranormal Institute of America where you can go and you can just kind of like pull one, some guy like, oh gee Willikers, yeah, I can't wait.

I love working for experience. Ryan Buell. Who's Ryan Buell? Paranormal state. No, he's, no, he's like, if I was Ryan Buell, I would be looking for my own Annabelle at this point in time. You need to source your own group, dude.

Wow, if you look up any paranormal investigator right now, Dan Rivera pops right up. Of course, this is big for him. This is the biggest news that, and the nicest thing that ever happened to Dan Rivera. That is so sad. That is so sad. It's like when we were on that plane just now,

we were just flying from Salt Lake, so we were flying from LA to Salt Lake City, Jeff Probst was on it. Oh my God, I didn't even know who he was. Dude, he didn't know, I had to be like, that little Elfin man. I was like, people kept coming up to him and taking pictures and pitching themselves to be on Survivor I was like literally at the end. I was like, who's this little fucker? I was like, but then there was a part of me that realized if we if the plane went down

We'd die in obscurity. Yeah, no one would know. Yeah, it's just Jeff Probst's death Now we're all fucking underneath Jeff Probst's fucking Wikipedia page And they also ran guess who also died two C-list comedians. Yeah great And everyone's like thank God You know the main paranormal convention where Annabelle's gonna be is still happening. Oh, no. They are oh buddy They're in canceling shit, and you know what there There's still so many tickets for all the time slots. Wow, I'm so surprised.

At this point, you think that that would really give it the bump. You would think it would give it the bump. People are weak. Yeah. Also, what is he doing playing Maine and Gettysburg? Annabelle's a star. I think Maine and Gettysburg is actually a great place

for people that wanna just go look at a doll sitting in a jerry on a stage. Specifically haunted locations. Yeah. they're going to haunted locations. so that's why these strange spots. oh okay what's haunted about the Augusta Civic Center? I think that's the nachos. they will haunt you all the way home. don't get those man. So Annabelle still on tour. She's doing it without Dan. He's named still on the poster. How long did it take great white to go back on tour after they killed everybody?

Yeah. It wasn't that long. Wasn't long enough. That should have ended it. It really should have ended it. I remember because remember that happened right after nine 11 and we are for a little while. We all thought it was a terrorist attack. We're like, oh no, this hair metals bands is stupid All right

The band has continued touring following their initial disbandment in 2001 and it came back took decade took it that yeah, but I'm 11 I've seen them on bills sometimes but it's like they're playing like they're not doing nicer rooms They're doing like the whiskey go-go and stuff like that I wouldn't I wouldn't have them in a nicer room No, you can't but I mean they should be in a nicer room because we saw what happens when they play bad ones Did he go to jail or did the people on the venue go to jail leave the people that went to the venue Yeah, cuz they're the ones that like let it happen and like had the horrible fucking sprinkler system. That's what it was. And the whole thing was like, yeah, the emergency system is that much of great. They share the blame. They are very, they were really sorry.

Yeah. I mean, of course she killed 70 certain people. They were upset. Yeah. And they weren't happy with it. They started the fire. Yeah. Cause it came from stage, right? Yeah The exits were the problem. All right, Pete Billy Joel's brain Unbelievable Billy Joel They're gonna put his just his hands on tour That's what's gonna happen. How they gonna get the liquor out of anything. Yeah squeeze it from the fucking top of the stock Got you man Wow. Well, we have an hour-long I got you man. Wow. Well, we have an hour-long interview that we're going to give you over to now. Yes. Because we love you, you know, and we want to never disappoint you.

Yeah, we're not gonna give you nothing. We're not gonna give you nothing. Yeah. Right? We're here, we're hanging out, loose Gay as hell. I'm diarrhea. Oh That cruise ship got Montezuma's revenge. That's what it was. So it's not their fault. We were just so you guys know crime wave at sea calm Please come and see us on this tour the they were gonna have us on On a practice run. Yeah, and then and then the people on that ship got wildly sick got wildly six, but

I'm looking so we dodged it I am looking at it here And they is if the blame is officially going on Mexico and not the cruise ship how convenient Yeah, what do you mean the blames going on Mexico Montezuma's revenge a bunch of but they went port and a bunch of people drank like uh, ice Yeah, the ice. Yeah, the ice is what gets you. Of course. You gotta forget that ice is water Because you're like, oh, I want a pina colada. I want a margarita No, and they blend it all up. If you are on the island. This is a good All right, this is great teaching moment crimewave at cu.com when we're not going to mexico

No, but anyway, but any of them Bahamas nothing you drink the water get bottled water When you're off the boat drink bottled water when you're on the boat drink bottled liquor Drink stuff that's got a top on it. You got to open. That's what I'm gonna say. That's my big cruise tip Yeah, yeah, don't and don't take a joint from strangers. I mean hang out with them for a while. Yeah Yeah, get to know him a little bit. Yeah good to know. Yes. This isn't a doobie, bro Don't buy ever I've actually had a lot of people asking me questions about this process And I will say don't get weed on the islands like cuz you might not the sometimes still

Unless it's right in front of you never how many times we have to say this never go to a second location Did I hear about what happened you hear about what happened to me when I was on a crew last time I was on a cruise I was like on a week-long cruise doing a gig and it was the longest I had gone without smoking weed Yeah, very long time You know and it was like the last night of the cruise, and I'm sitting there with my fellow performers. So I just got to know Ashley Ward.

Wonderful actor. Yeah, Ashley Ward's a wonderful lady. Langen Kingsley. A lot of hilarious people. And we're just sitting there enjoying a beer at the end of the night. And I remember I just turned to them like, I've known you long enough now, I feel like I could be honest with you.

I'm kind of going crazy because I haven't smoked weed in a week You know and then they were like and then Langdon like magically Pointed and then a bag of weed was just floating along the deck. It's just like look weed And then it was just like a bag of weed appeared out of nowhere as I was complaining Whoa, then I actually bought a pipe at the straw market and then I was like, oh my god It's so I thought he works in mysterious way. It's like you should have asked on the first day. Yep Yeah, we're just showing up. Yeah. Also the key is yeah stick to cocaine Yeah, that's what I say when you're on the boat much easier to booth Just get it from the store get it from the get it from the the people working Yeah on the boat

Not us though. No Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's ours Listen guys, it's November 3rd of the 7th come come to you know again boof it crime wave at see not at land And also September 21st, Henry and I are going to be in Kansas City, Missouri at the Truman Theater. Also October 24th, we're in Redway, California at the Mateel Community Center. Going to be the best show of the year, always is.

Yeah. And November 30th, Henry and I are going to be in Columbus OH at the Newport Music Hall. I'm very excited about that. And don't forget. Epstein country. Is that Epstein country? Oh, yeah. I thought that was South Florida. And don't forget. Epstein country. Is that Epstein country? Oh, yeah.

I thought that was South Florida. No, Epstein. Well, that's where he's really from. That's where he really made his nut. Oh, in Ohio. Yeah, with the Lex guy from Victoria's Secret. Oh. Lex Westlund.

That guy was a bad man. Yeah. You know, Ohio, you know, the people don't get enough credit. They start shit, and then other people take credit for Ohio's work all the fucking time. I think people are starting to catch on. You know the people don't give enough credit they start shit and then other people take credit for Ohio's work all the fucking time I think people are starting to catch on you know the Wright brothers have we ever talked about this they're from Ohio North Carolina sitting here claim in their first in flight the plane was made in Ohio

They drove it to North Carolina because the beach is windy and they're fucking sitting here saying that they're the first in flight The Wright brothers from Ohio the plane was built in Ohio. They fucking took it down to North Carolina the air Unfortunately failed them in Ohio. Yeah, I did I Really did They did that's why they lost it. Yeah, they have bad the air is bad Don't count your wins. Don't collect the metal. you're on the podium. Yeah, no, exactly. But I don't know what Ohio does have. I can't wait. I'm going to Ohio over break. I'm very

excited. Are you? Yeah, sure. Ham salad, baby. Oh yeah. Bridgetown meats. I love shouting out Bridgetown meats. You get that ham salad. Take care of Janet rosing. That's what I'm talking about. This is, you know, they, every time I plugged them, they give her free food. That's amazing. Wow. So go do me a favor. Go to bridge. If you live in Cincinnati, go to desperate trying to get his mother-in-law's approval. I really, I really want her to like me. We've talked talked about this every parent in the world likes Eddie more than his mother-in-law and his father Everybody else loves him way more because he's not fucking their daughter So go to Bridgetown meats let them know Ham salad is delicious and you need some and you're here on a wreck from Janet Rosa. Yeah, I'm helping my

Have the ham salad We'll edit that into something that won't get me in trouble Another great joke lost you didn't even hear that he's got additive That's what you get folks you fuckers August 21st, I lesion theater dead men Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha But we're gonna leave that to Marcus cuz that's his fuck up Yeah, we're gonna get swallow in that cuz we don't know jack shit about shit. Yeah Marcus has to kill the fake stripper That's his fucking life. That is mistake. It's on his ass old old backstrap never had a chance I'm not gonna open I'm not gonna say to you what I was gonna say to you Okay, because it's a direct come into from what we were talking about on side stories

That's actually like a super inappropriate way to open. Okay, like about the baby about it. Oh the baby names What about the baby? We're talking about the 11 baby names. They got like yeah, what's what's appropriate about like commander? Hey commanders allowed oh you can name your child commander in America. Yes. Okay I maybe came across some list about the names that were banned in Australia. Maybe. And they were just like very gently. Jesus Christ, you can't be named Jesus Christ.

But obviously Jesus is fine. Fair. Again, unless you're ice. And you can't be named three? Yeah, the Roman numeral three. Yeah, I, I, I. Yeah, I thought it was ill. I was like, what if it's ill? Oh, so you would Yeah, aye, aye, aye. I thought it was ill. I was like, what if it's ill?

Oh, so you would pronounce that I-I-I. I think people would be might be angry, yeah. Wow, is that why it is? You're so smart. That's why we have her here, Amanda Montell. Thank you very much. I am glad that you're here. I'm just here to help us all read.

You can name your kid Nutella. I know. It's no fun. Literally Adolf Hitler Nutella. But what if you put them together? Adolf Hitler Nutella? This is my son. Adolf Hitler Nutella Cranberry. I think that should be allowed. Throw a cute little thing in there too.

My spouse really likes the mouthfeel of the word chlamydia. And thinks it would make a beautiful first name. throw a cute little thing in there too. My spouse really likes the mouth feel of the word chlamydia and thinks it would make a beautiful first name. Oh yeah, absolutely. It would take an amazing publicist to like rebrand the optics of chlamydia into like a beautiful baby name. I'm a lovely Greek girl.

How about this, cliffidia? Cliffidia. Cliffidia. Cliffidia. You take someone else's name, you take Cliff. Yeah, oh Cliff. Yeah, Cliff idiot idiot. Um, you take someone else's name you take cliff. Yeah, that's live. Yeah cliff Oh, yeah, instead of Clifford. It's worse Not good

Maria Georgia real well now that just sounds like a ball issue Right, it's like you ate too many cling peaches and you get Georgia Rhea. Herbies. Herbies. Herbies. Well I guess that is already a name. Herpes. Herpeas. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Herb. Her it a beautiful name. Yeah. That is a fun word game. This is my buddy Shades. That's only if he's cool. Because it only works if he's got sunglasses on at all times.

Oh yeah, instead of Liv Tyler, it could be L-I-V. Oh wow. This is a great way to sell your book. Whoa. I did write, okay, relatedly, I did write a book called word slut and sometimes like autocorrect will change it to words slit which feels more vulgar Natalie my wife just said a whole thing somebody just called her a slit YouTube and she loved it. Okay, cuz she was just like it's been a long time. Yeah, there was that punk band slits Oh my god, right. So technically they retook the word back. Yeah, so in a way, it's cool to be a slit

Okay, reclamation Hi mom, I'm switching off This is my daughter reclamation Hitler, cranberry, Nestle, Zabroskie Oh my god By the way, you can name your kid Hitler. Just not Adolf Hitler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, that's beautiful.

Isn't that weird? Like, because you think, like, because also, it's because they're like, oh, well, no one knows Brandon Hitler. And it's just like, I feel like Hitler's the important part of the name. Totally. Like, I feel like more people recognize Hitler than Adolf Hitler. They're like who's that? Yeah, they would be like, oh if you just met an Adolf you'd be like, oh, I bet you're a difficult man Yeah, I bet you like regulation. Yeah, but they're not necessarily you want to kill us all does Adolf still have a bad rep like in

Germany I imagine I do believe They don't have a lot of patience for it over there. Okay, okay They're not ready. No one's ready and that's good. They're pretty upset Do you know that the Hitler family like the people like the lineage of Hitler's family? They've all got together and does and agreed not to have children so that all dies off. No way Hard it is for them to not fuck like now that they've like like said that they like won't whoa That's very erotic and that's on edging Do you to try to put a nose of

I'm ready to booth this conversation Oh my god. I'm ready to boof this conversation. All right, okay. Let's get down to fucking brass ass tacks. Amanda Montell, host of the very popular podcast, Sounds Like a Cult, is also an accredited author. Oh, thank you. Very big time author. Thank you. You've done a lot of this shit. Apparently you're very smart. We just did your show and got some social cred, so thank you.

Oh my god, I love that. Yeah, more popular more popular now thanks to you. Sounds like a call. Okay. I'm talking like Yoda. Scramble together the right order of that sentence. I appreciate you both so much for coming on the show. It was the episode on the cult of incels and it was our most well received episode of all time. And that is a miracle because I was scared shitless. My asshole was clenched through the entire editorial Yeah, yeah same They came for the DMS yeah Men men were real some of the men that happened to catch some of what we were saying

Okay, we're pretty upset with it were they but the thing is is that mostly they just they look like men that how do you put? This have sex with the fish? They catch Yes, they weren't and they're not a threat right so you're like when you know you're making that type of person angry You're like, oh, we're in the right thing. Yeah. They're alphas, but don't know the alphabet. Oh my god. Ayo. OK.

I see you. OK, we're on split. I see you. Yes. That's right. Well, our Sweetie Pie, mostly female and non-binary listeners, were eating you up. They were loving it.

They were like, men on Sounds Like a Cult? It was honestly, it was a DEI situation, you on Sounds Like a Cult. Honestly, thank you for it. They were like men on sounds like a cult. What it was. It was honestly it was a DEI situation You on sounds like a call. Honestly. Thank you for it. And I just feel like the time for the 40 old white man is coming Yeah, yeah, yeah City higher it's time for our representation. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's all been here for years They're all they've always been here. Can I ask you straight up, right?

So you're now deep into cults. You're deep into cults. That sentence sounds like it's up to interpretation, but yeah, yeah. Do you feel that your life has changed because, like, on one angle, did you expect this to be your life? Not at all. How did you start? Great question. Okay, so context to the backstory of the lore

is that my dad spent his teenage years against his will in the cult Synanon. Are you familiar? Oh yes, very much so. Very familiar. So I grew up on his stories, which were enrapturing. Like he- The OG crew?

Like that guy, what do they, the old guy? Chuck Diedrich. That guy. Yeah, the man, the myth, the old guy. Chuck Diedrich. That guy. Yeah, the man amidst the ledge. That shit's fucking terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. So he was 14 when his father, sort of inspired by the blossoming counter-cultural movement

of the late 60s, moved him and his two toddler-age half-sisters onto what they believed was this socialist utopian compound, this experimental way of life. It started out as like a drug rehabilitation center that then grew to accommodate so-called lifestylers. Yes. Yeah, people who just wanted in

on that kind of communal living situation. Cause they seem to really help people for a while. It really, it did, you know? And then it kind of spun out of control. He didn't really know when to drop the Adolf off of the Hitler, or the Hitler off the Adolf. It got bad. So anyways, yeah, my dad arrived and he was 14 and who knows some combination of nature and nurture and the fact that he had grown up in like Manhattan School of Hard Knocks that point, caused him to be pretty skeptical

and freaked out by the whole arrangement as soon as they got to the compound. It was a weird place even by then. Kids lived separate from their parents and everybody dressed in these neutral, super conformist coveralls. People had to shave their heads as punishment. Everybody engaged in this really traumatizing ritual

called the game, which was like catharsis therapy, and he wasn't loving it, so he kind of flew under the radar in the cult, escaped off the compound every day to attend an accredited high school in San Francisco, because he knew he wanted to leave and attend college. And- That's a willful kid. Totally, totally.

I did the exact opposite with school. Oh really? I left the school I was supposed to be in. To join a cult. Except the cult of marijuana. The cult of marijuana, totally. Oh my god, I'm in it as well. Hello, not today. I am on the right drugs for this interview.

Nice. But, you know, little iced oat cortado moment. But yeah, so my dad, ironically though, Synanon wanted to, it wanted to avoid outside hospitals whenever possible, it was this like closed system. And so Synanon had its own microbiology lab. And my dad at the age of 15 was tasked with running it. And that was like maybe irresponsible of the cult

to be like, hey kid, culture these like cult followers, fingertips for tuberculosis microbes. But there he like fell in love with laboratory science. And that's what he majored in in college. And then he went and got his PhD. And now he's he's a neuroscientist and has been doing research my whole life. I grew up in Baltimore where he does research at Hopkins. And, and yeah, so like, ironically, that lab was kind of like a sanctuary of empiricism within Sinanon's like irrational grounds. And so yeah, he left as soon as he could.

And I came of age on those stories. I kind of like cut my journalistic teeth, I guess, on like probing my dad for details about this lifestyle. And the most fascinating thing about my dad's Sinanon stories, to me, was the language that Sinanon would use to manipulate its followers. Like, yeah, go for it. I'm very, very excited because you wrote this whole book,

Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism. And I am, unlike you in that, where I am fascinated with cult lingo. Yes! Because it's in the details that you see you in that, where I am fascinated with cult lingo, because it's in the details that you see why people like get sucked in. Totally. And it's the recreations and the changings of definitions that we see every day on a mass scale right now with how our government is reacting to the world

and information. Yes. And they're using the same exact tactics that cults use. That is so true. But it's very interesting. And what was the kind of, can I ask, what was the first cult that you cracked into as just a journalist? Ooh, well, the first interview that I did

while I was putting together my proposal for this book was with a survivor of the Happy Healthy Holy Organization, the Kundalini Yoga Cult. No, explain. Triple H, the wrestler? No. So 3H0 does have some famous alumni, like Russell Brand was a part of it, Adrian Brody was actually a part of it. Demi Moore. Like they were, you know, it's- What, as kids? No, as adults. So what is the- it's just cause it's a- okay, so it's like one of those where there's like a main guru that everybody goes to. Yes.

Is it the style of the other guru that used to be like, you're fat, you're fat, you don't do it right, you're- look at Mr. Tubby. Mr. Tubby's doing his triangle pose and he's not Was that the Bikram guys? Yes. Yes. Yes. So it yes it was in that same universe so this guru was named yogi budgen and He was this con artist who arrived to America and good at yoga. Um, that's a great question I have actually no idea. It was like so beside the point You know what I mean? It was like about the dogma and if you've ever seen photos of a group of people in a group of white People in all white and white turbans gallivanting around a desert. That was the Kundalini No, like literally it is so I That's Coachella. No, like literally it is giving Coachella. So I, you know, we live in Los Angeles,

you can't attend a birthday party without running into like an ex-scientologist or, you know, there is something about LA that attracts, you know, cultish affiliates because it's a town of manifest destiny, you know? This came out of nowhere. This is all sand, baby. Literally.

This is not supposed to fucking be here. We made this out of nowhere. This is all sand baby literally it like not supposed to fucking be here We made this out of out of pure manna out of exactly out of like pure delusion And I don't know like the quest for celebrity and fame feels religious to me like a quest I've never really met any like cult people in Los Angeles because I just stick to the people I know and only know their ideas You're like, that's my cult. No, and that is kind of the argument that we, I went into the project thinking like, oh, I'm too skeptical, I'm too cynical,

I would never end up in a cult. But it was all very humbling because I really do think that there's a cult for everyone. And sometimes my friend group of theater kids feels like a cult as well. Oh, it is. It's a whole thing. Can I add, which one would you join?

If there was some, if you could with no? Yeah, because obviously what one of the big maxims on last podcast is that if you're gonna join a cult right the key Gotta get into management. Yeah Genuinely, you got to get into management because that's when the Colts working for you, right? You're really for the cult. Oh, I do Yeah I mean a structure that I kept finding in all of these groups, or so very many of them,

is that there would be kind of a charismatic, populist, opportunist man at the top, a guy with kind of a chip on his shoulder who felt sort of entitled to a certain level of power that maybe he didn't feel like he had access to as a kid. I don't need you to roast me on my own fucking show. I don't need you to come into my place of work. I know.

I feel like everyone who maybe felt a little left out in high school now has podcasts. Oopsie doodle. But yeah, and then they're surrounded by an inner circle of beautiful young women who sort of exchange their sexuality and privilege for a little bit more power. So if I could be in the top spot, not in the inner circle, but truly at the top, let's

see. Like who would you kiss? Yeah, who? Who would you kiss? Yeah. Are you a Keith Raniere girl? Are you a Jim Jones lady? I'm not a Jim Jones diva.

Steven Baldwin. Let's see. Steven Baldwin. Yeah. She didn see. Yeah. Even bite. I don't know. Do you get get me? No, you really can. Let's see. I don't know.

This is like this is an earnest answer. But what cult would I join? The cults that I've like orbited and almost joined have been helmed by celebrities like living in Hollywood. You know, like I have had an experience or two where, you know, like some celebrity that I admire has, like, slid into my DMs and been like, oh, my God, I, like, just discovered your work.

And I'm like, what? It feels like a message from the great beyond. It's like, how did this God actually find a way to communicate with me? And then, you know, they'll, like, invite you to a party or something. And then you really do get sucked in.

I feel very susceptible to the orbit and the gravitational pull of a celebrity that I admire. Look at Jared Leto. Jared Leto is- Literally, that's such a great example. He's doing a great job of it. He really is. Did you hear about the sleepovers? Oh, yeah.

I know you have. I heard he was in trouble, but I don't know what happened. I know he's got like eight or nine people after him, but what happened? There's a lot of allegedlys in this story. Come on, look at him. Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Well, okay.

It's Jared Leto. He's been talked about like this in a very broad manner for a long time. Yeah. I mean, okay. I mean, okay, let me give you I mean, let me give you an anecdote. OK, this is this is an anecdote. This is like totally fucking allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. Yes, this is uncle dotes here, but we will take this is another. Yeah, you'll take an anecdote.

OK, I have a woman. It's feminism. That's feminism. This is an uncle, don't an antidote, a country, don't. OK, so he when I was in college, I was friends with this girl who just looked so, so, so, so young. And when she was like 19, she met Jared Leto at a party in LA, and they developed a sort of relationship,

and he has, allegedly, a compound of a home, and he keeps like allegedly like handguns and random drawers. I think he has a lot of paranoia, but he also like whips up his followers allegedly into a sort of, I mean the sleepover thing is like allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. I'd like a sleepover.

I would love it if we had one. We do sleepovers. I wish. That's so sweet. Belly to belly. Bromance is beautiful. Belly to belly, feet to feet. That's gorgeous. Imagine though, if we had a nice,

everyone has a sleeping bag, we're all over, we're having a good time watching some movies. The time is over for me. Honestly, yeah, I think he just blurs the intimacy boundaries with his fans, and because he operates in so many different mediums, it's kind of like a catch me if you can situation. Like I find it so fascinating nowadays that like,

if an influencer who say starts out on YouTube and develops a cult following there, starts to become really problematic or like reveals their true colors that have been there all along and is, you know, proverbially canceled or whatever, they can just like switch platforms and go to TikTok. Like this person thinking of specifically is like Jeffree Star.

Jeffree Star was like, I know that tangentially through my wife. She was a big, she followed all of that. Natalie, Natalie is a Jeffree Star diva. So like Jeffree Star, you know, it was revealed that he's like super racist and has just like so, so many problematic attributes and he kind of fell from grace on YouTube. So like Jeffree Star, you know, it was revealed that he's like super racist and has just like so many problematic attributes and he kind of fell from grace on YouTube. So then he like was reborn,

like literally resurrected on TikTok as a farmer. And now he like has a compound and he's farming. And so the people who only know him on TikTok are like- I'm not fucking getting those pumpkins. I imagine he, I can't imagine he's good at farming. It's only white pumpkins. Yeah, it's a special kind of seed. This one's too orange.

Yeah, literally, the two orange ones are checked out. But now the people who only know him on TikTok are like, how could anybody be mad at Farmer Jeffery? So I think like people who are masters of the rebrand, masters of the resurrection, who like sort of refused to step back, who are kind of like, I mean, Keith Renieri was like this too, he was like a failed MLM-er.

Oh yeah, and he was a, Keith Renieri to me is like the lowest of the low. Truly. Like I view him as such a hack. Like I know that's the saddest one, like that's what I don't like about him. That's what you don't like. Is that he's a fucking

I have an original thought my guy. He stole everything from science. Of course and then we know how much you love Elrond I Elrond is only reason why is because Unfortunately until our current president. He was the number one con man of all time. I was saying that I would put him close as Elrond is the closest to the guy that really figured it out You're any mean what about the Pope? Oh He's supposed to be chosen. Yeah, totally. No Elrond chose himself and that's the American dream. Yes No, but like it's true Elrond what the the language of Scientology One of the most fun in this book to write. Have you read Dianetics? I

One of the most fun parts in this book to write. Have you read Dianetics? I have, I flipped through, I've perused. I've flipped through it. I haven't read cover to cover. What's your favorite chapter, Henry? I like the clams. You know, I found, so one of my best friends growing, like, a guy who really helped, Shane Morton, who did all the makeup for a show I did, called Your Pretty Face is Going to Hell, he was the first person to give me the proper literature on

Satanism and ritual magic and all that kind of stuff and one of the things that he Told me which I thought was interesting. He's like the key is you don't want to get locked into a guy's pattern Okay, because what they'll do is is like as we see a lot of cults are presenting a very complicated lock that can be opened only by help of the guy that's given you a bunch of fake, like information about what goes into the lock. To reveal an empty safe. Yes, nothing's in there.

But you've been there for so long in this process that you have to pretend with the guy that there's something in the safe. Totally, it's the self-delusion, Emperor's new clothes, clothes sunk cost fallacy all of it. There's so much psychology and the Scientological like those things that they do all the turns of phrases. So I was for a while I was driving around with technique 88 LRH is one of his last recorded like talks on a CD Someone gave me all the Scientology tapes and I just put them in the car, right?

And I was listening to him driving around. I'm listening to it for days, weeks. I'm listening to it. And then I begin to realize like, oh, he just started to make sense. I'm now actually following what it was that he was sort of talking about and then I'm realizing, oh, I'm caught in the pattern. Yes. I am a literal lemming doing the thing. I've just finally listened long enough that I've decided that the gobbledygook is coming together. Yes. Yes. Oh my god. Why as podcasters do we like Loki do this? But like it... I love it.

No, I... Yeah, it is... What else would I be doing? Of course. It is absolutely fascinating and Elrond Hubbard really was, again, the master of the rebrand, the sort of failed sci-fi writer who was like, you know what would be much more clever and much more profitable to turn this into a religion? I mean, JRR Tolkien could have done it. He could have done it in a second.

He could have done it in a second because they both are, they both are, if I may say so, and this is without reverence for Elron Hubbard, but I know you have it. I do. I am a Lord of the Rings girlie, by the way. Everyone's allowed to make fun of Elron. It's fine. I understand. He's not, yeah, I don't actually, but I do, but I know you have it. I do, I am a Lord of the Rings girlie, by the way. Everyone's allowed to make fun of Elrond, it's fine. I understand, yeah. He's not, yeah, I don't actually, but I do, but I don't.

But I do. No one understands that type rope walk better than me, but like they are both masters of language. And like you don't need to be that clever in coming up with like neologisms. You just need to be able to twist existing language effectively enough to get people who know how to use that exclusive rhetoric to feel like they're on the inside of something.

The very way that when you're a little kid learning Pig Latin on the playground, it's literally just gibberish. It's just a phonetic puzzle. You're not saying anything that can't be said in plain English, but just the sheer fact that you've learned it and other people around you know it too and the kids who don't know how to speak it are instantly less cool

It fills you with a sense of not only intellectual but moral superiority and elron hubbard with his dictionaries And the way that he would co-opt language from scientific fields that he admired like chemistry and software engineering and linguistics He also did it clever. He did it as a bit too. He knew the more science stuff I throw in this, the more people are going to think it's legit. I mean, he named it Scientology. It's so on the nose. It's the shittiest book. It's everything he ever wrote.

He knew it was easy for him to make it up because he'd already written it a decade ago. But he also was a highly prolific author, and some of it was fine. But you know, like- Yeah, he wasn't even really a failed space fantasy writer. No, it's actually, it was just packed filled with shit. This is my problem though.

So this is a thing I run into. Maybe, I don't know, not, you guys don't have to because I, how do I say this? I love the con. Yeah. I am a part of a person that understands that the con and the salesmanship of esoteric principles is as important as the principles themselves. Of course. And that I love the con

because I know that as a person that you can as a regular human being if you understand it you can learn how to use these types of skills that can genuinely help you as a human being. Absolutely. What's the difference between a con man, a con person, and an actual spiritual leader? Well like the sting, you know, you're just a thief. I don't know. Like what's the difference? But really though, what's the difference between if the con can help you, is he a criminal? Is it criminality if the con itself works to actually do something for you?

So actually the criminality dimension is really interesting because like psychological coercion is itself not a crime. That's why that Keith Raniere conviction was so unprecedented or precedent setting because he, he, his, the main way that he destroyed people or really, really negatively affected people was by lying and gaslighting and manipulating. And of course he committed physical crimes too, but not- Yeah, he was a rapist and he was all-

Yeah, he was a rapist, he was a sexual predator, but not to everyone. So like, if he had gone like 80% of the way, it would have been awful and tragic and destructive, but it wouldn't have been criminal. But he was founded on, or he was founded guilty on, found guilty rather, on charges of racketeering and sex trafficking. And so that was such an important conviction because those are concrete criminal, like

federal criminal crimes. Whereas like so many people who I believe have really powerful cult followings these days, I'm talking like QAnon conspiritualists, Instagram therapists who teeter up towards QAnon. Teal Swans making their way back. Teal Swan, yes, like we are speaking the same language. Like they're, it's really hard to hold them accountable criminally, which is why becoming aware of this language,

which to your point is the abstract key that is like... or the... it's the lock and the key. You know what I mean? It turns out it's all it is. It's not tools that are leading you to helpful information. It's just what the information. So I think the helpfulness in some of these groups, because they would not be alluring, were they not on some level helpful,

they provide what the theologian, Tara Isabella Burton, describes as what religion provides, which is ritual, meaning, identity, and community. That's interesting. And we crave those things as human beings, especially during times of crisis and tumult and lack of agency and lack of control. And to your point about using, you know,

some of these con artists' techniques for good, there are, like, linguistic techniques that are, you know, deceptively simple that a lot of grifters really take advantage of unabashedly. Like, even just the power of repetition, even just the power of rhyme, can be so impactful in making something false seem true, and the awareness of that effect is not enough to help you resist it,

but people can use it to spread true information too. Like, we need to make true information a little sexier. I think with cult leader tactics honestly, you're on a thing I've been saying for a while in my head I've been thinking about the concept of a Good idea doesn't just win on its own No a good idea actually must be sold and has to beat a bad idea Yeah And it's really hard for the good people because they don't understand that you actually do need to take some Tactics from the other side to beat the other yeah, they might not be natural like marketers like they're all not

Oh, no every how many sensitive? Fucking wonderful puff people have we met in our life that have you know like the people at the puppies? Beyond borders I join that one, But you know what I mean? Like that's like a thing where like they don't have the skills of a Stephen Miller. Totally. Like they're like, I could bring a puppy's to your house. I'm like, that's, you know, puppies, you know, like that's where they need an evil genius. I don't even know if he's done an evil genius.

They're not evil geniuses. They're opportunists. Yes. They need opportunists. People who are listening, people who can pick up on populist cues and package them It kind of reminds me of how like the best apartments always have the ugliest photos on Craigslist My house looked like shit when I looked at the Zillow thing you go in the thing. He's like, oh, it's actually We're gonna do something with this literally, but yeah, I think you know I can't fault anyone for like falling for genius marketing. Like that's the whole thing,

but it is fascinating to learn about the tactics that make false or dangerous information seem true. Like there's this cognitive bias called the Rhymes as Reason effect, which suggests that rhyming statements aid in processing fluency. They make information feel more organizable and and thus easier to remember and thus true. So there was a study that found that participants

rated the phrase woes unite foes as more truthful than woes unite enemies just because it rhymes. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. I mean, look at Al Sharpton. Literally. No, honestly, that lilt, like that lilt that some of these folks use and not- Pattern. a yeah the patter

I've never I saw Al Sharpton speak one time and I've never seen anyone have that much control over an audience of people And it was like just because of his rhythm and his like way He knew when to like elevate his voice and when to take it down Yeah, and it was like half the shit he was talking about was nonsense But like it was like what he had like he had like 150 people ready to like storm anything And it was like half the shit he was talking about was nonsense. But like it was, but he had like he had like 150 people ready to like storm anything. And it was just wild to watch. Now I want to ask you a question because we touched on religion a second ago, a little bit.

And as a staunch atheist, I look at most religions. I grew up in Catholic school. I look at Catholicism as like a type of cult, but I also understand the need for community and religion and stuff like that. The Catholic Church, I can't stand, but it helped my mother out when she needed some stuff at times, you know, with community. I do love stained glass.

Yeah, exactly. Hey, I'm fine with it. It fucked with my mother at the Catholic Church, as far as I'm concerned, can go fucking self-punctuate. Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure. But how do we feel about like, obviously like a Joel Osteen? Like is he a cult leader or is he just a thief?

I mean this is like this is the type of semantic question that I'm like always going to filibuster not even filibuster but like sort of like play with and reckon with because this term cult is so subjective and so context dependent and looking at the etymology of it is a really fascinating way to understand it because the word cult didn't have such sinister undertones always, you know? For example, I think it's so fascinating that in some romance languages, the word cult actually means what we would conceive of as a sect and the word sect actually means cult. So like it's reversed basically like the earliest usage of the term cult could be found in writings in like the 16th 17th

century and back then it just meant homage paid to divinity or like offerings made to win over the gods. Because it used to be a little bit more segmented and people were the religions were a little bit more regional. Yes. You'd go to your local saint and then you'd become sort of the especially within the Christian framework. Yes, it was more like kind of grassrootsy and ritualistic.

And then as time went on in the United States in particular, like the hotspot HQ of cultish belief in my opinion, which we can talk about later. But we fucking really did it Yeah, we really really did but it by the 1800s the word cult came to describe groups that were, you know deviant But but not necessarily nefarious and then it like really wasn't and then of course like during during the 50s and 60s and 70s, this time that some scholars refer to

as the fourth great awakening, the word cult was kind of used to lambast some of these alternative spiritual groups that were coming up during that time, this peak cult era that we think of. But I do find it interesting, it's immediately you can see, just like a way a cult leader does,

that the change of the term yes probably gamified by really interested parties all religions yeah the major religions government all that kind of stuff you see oh people all breaking off our experiment here in their little pods so we try to we were trying to keep people together the more we have a little offshoot groups that's bad for us so we're gonna call them cults. So they're bad, those are bad to be in that. Totally, and I also think it's funny that as soon,

well, I'll put it this way. Basically, that is absolutely true, and yet the word cult was still not on the mainstream radar. It had not taken a seat at the table of everyday English, not until the Manson family murders of 1969 and then the Jonestown massacre of 1978. And that's really when the word cult

became this national symbol of fear. And that gave way to the satanic panic of the 1980s and things like that. But I find it really fascinating that as soon as the word cult became something that everybody knew to be sinister, it also became cool. And that's when we developed terms like cult followed and cult classic to define, you know, to describe like deadheads and things like that.

So this word is like so context dependent and sort of wiggly. And that's why like when I talk about these groups, unless we're literally talking about like Jonestown, QAnon, you know, groups like that, if I'm, if I want to have a productive conversation and not make people feel shamed or not like shut down conversations completely, I'll either get really really specific with my language, call it like a new age high control conspiracy theory, or I'll hedge my language and just say that the group is cultish. Because it just, yeah, honestly I do think that it's a good way to kind of put it because

people can't. I get it. Everything's, everything's a cult. Now we're in the post ironic cult. Now we're in the cults that are openly saying that they're a cult because they think it's cute or they're like, oh, also very interesting, like the Zizians, that new crew, that new crew of fucking villains on the scene a good old-fashioned I'm glad we got some trance representation. They're actually is really nice. Hey Henry. We told you this is none of your business

Hey, I'm just hey, hey So into this game where we replace one letter That just makes me light up like a twinkle But these guys are with it's not centralized It's another one of these new features that we're starting to see where right they don't need a compound in Uruguay anymore That's right. No, it is really interesting how you know, we we traditionally or I guess since that era in the 70s and 80s when everybody started to understand what a cult was, we traditionally

thought of them as, you know, a compound where people like dance around barefoot, like the Midsommar thing. Oh, sure. And then Heaven's Gate. Heaven's Gate became the new proto model. Exactly, exactly. The cult of the 90s, you know, beginning of digital technology, ex-file era. Spacey-eyed, super skinny losers. It's the truth. the cult of the 90s, you know, beginning of digital technology, X-files era.

Spacy-eyed, super skinny losers. It's the truth, and I mean this in the nicest way possible. It became the way, which I also think speaks to your point of why it begins, people really start to think, I can't ever be in a cult. Exactly, exactly. And so we now, in the digital age, we fail to realize that the new compound is a forum.

It's a comment section, you know? It's new compound is a forum. It's a comment section. It's in your head, dude. It's in your fucking head. It's in your head. But yeah, we don't necessarily need one single charismatic leader with a face. QAnon, we could argue all day about who the leader of QAnon is. Yeah, neither one of them are Mr. Charisma. Truly.

Well, that's right too. And I think we talked about this in our incels interview. Like the standard for Charisma for an influencer type cult leader is like way lower. Sucks dude. Keith Raniere can suck my dick. Keith Raniere is such a husband, low talent. Like where does this guy even get,

I mean, I guess obviously he pulled in Smallville. He just pulled in Smallville. She's a flip She's doing that Oh flip. What tell me well, she's now first of all pulled in smallville She's what is what give me any? Love her she is Keith Raniere did a he has a bit of a sex cult called Nexium. It's over in there was an HBO. The New Babylon of the World, which is Birmingham, New York, which is not.

And then he brand he had this lady, but they branded a bunch of people. It was a whole spiritual cult, lot of midnight volleyball acapella Sashes as his whole thing but Ellie Mac was like his main right evil second banana henchmen Okay, and now she got out and she's gonna she is in the process of flippin But she lives in like Brooklyn and now there's like pap pictures of her. Have you seen her? Oh my god, what's pap like? Have you seen her getting papped out? Oh my god. What's pap?

Paparazzi. Pap smear. Be a feminist. I was kidding. Come on, Matt. No, I'm kidding. But I think that is so interesting because, and I think it does have to do with the irony that is like the most celebrated attitude on social media right now.

Like if she could, I think in this culture where irony and humor is so celebrated she almost could completely rebrand her reputation if she played it right like no you know what do we do I don't know cuz I 40 as a 41 year old man right I've watched things go from ironic back to full-throated everybody's like feels things again back to ironic. Yeah, now we're back and now we're in a post post ironic Whatever I feel bad for the zoomers. They're not allowed to be cringe right? They're not allowed no I know no it's fucked up. Yeah, they're not allowed to be vulnerable. That's our fault by the way all they're doing Yeah, of course. No, I know They're just like making stuff up and they're all like pretend.

I mean this is nice as possible. I want to help. It feels like a lot of the younger generation are sort of doing this thing where they are acting very mature without having experienced a single thing. I've seen it too. Yes. Where they are acting very like, you know, it's hard because what do we do for these kids?

Oh my god, how do we help these kids because they're not going to understand? Because I believe believe me, I'm regress when you get a little older. Yeah, I mean, look at me. I'm wearing fucking, you know, colorful clothes Like I'm 14. Yeah, it's different. It's like a thing where it how do we teach them at some level this this irony thing? I know I know it's so it's so hard we From the first one guilty. It's really it's so it's so tough And I really we did we recently did an episode on the cult of Mark Zuckerberg where like the true true evil He is like a little bit of an evil genius and an opportunist.

I know, but like, but like Instagram and even like Instagram is for old people at this point. But like, I really, I blame the surveillance culture of social media and just like the addiction, absorption addiction cycle on social media for so much of the lack of experimenting and lack of freedom and lack of liberation that like a lot of young people feel. I sometimes do talks in college, on college campuses. And I find that, well, first of all, there's such a split in culture, like there's so much polarization on college campuses and also, like, higher ed is dwindling in a way that is so sad.

But I do find that, like, among my, you know, readers or potential readers or the folks that I'm talking to, there is, and this is beautiful in a way, but also heartbreaking in a way, there is such anxiety surrounding potential to cause harm. That people are so afraid of making a mistake, of being cringe, of saying something they haven't yet already heard, that I find that people aren't allowed to be inauthentic in an actually authentic way, if that makes sense.

Yeah, exactly. I had to pretend to be somebody. Yeah to become somebody Yeah, yeah, but you're not an actor anymore. No, but I I Permission structure But I got to be I got to pretend in a Vacuum. Yeah, exactly in a vacuum. I got to go be I am very thankful for the years that we got to do sketch comedy And tallahassee nobody had any idea what we're doing. Yeah, I'm very thankful the first couple years of MurderFist was no one could see. Yeah, there was no internet.

I didn't even have an email address. That was our old sketch group. We've been doing Common together for 22 years. And so it's like one of those where... I... That's what's hard is that so now, they're naturally... You're naturally, as a younger person, looking to model yourself off of somebody higher than you.

You're looking to do it. And what do we do when it's like only grifters, even the ones that are like on the good side of the grift, you have to sort of understand that they're grifters first. Right. Because there's so much incentive to be overconfident online. And like we have phrases like shoot your shot, crush it, kill it. War language, the language of violence to incentivize people.

Let's go is the most aggravating fucking thing for me. I can't even deal with that. It's so high temperature when, yeah, I really do feel grateful that I was allowed to, I guess, come of age in an environment where there wasn't so much also like choosers paradox. You know, now like we see so many potential identities online to like triangulate amongst and that's really overwhelming.

And I think it it paves the way for culty grifters to come in and be like, you know what, here's a low stakes example. It's like, there are too many options comparatively for like who to be and what to like. And you know, it's like that fleabag monologue. And so when someone comes in and is like, you know what, you should be a Glossier girl. And this is what a Glossier,

do you know what that is, Glossier? Oh, it's a makeup brand. Okay, nevermind, let me choose different reference. Goop, goop, let's do goop. Let's do goop. It'll be like, you're a goop girl, and this is what a goop girl eats, and this is what a goop girl,

these are the podcasts that a goop girl listens to, this is what a goop girl reads, this is how a goop girl looks, then all of a sudden it takes the pressure off of that chooser's paradox. And again, it isn't always bad, but like my favorite way to participate in cultishness is to have like a finger in a bunch of different culty pies

and to like experience irrationality and ritual and mysticism within the confines of a space and then be able to tap out and do something a little bit culty elsewhere. And when a group doesn't allow you to have one foot out the door, I think that's when it becomes a little too cultish for comfort.

Oh yeah, it's like you stop being friends with someone that tells you you can't be friends with a certain people. Exactly. It's one of those things. But I think it's super important for people to remember that I think you're doing, that's exactly it, is that you can experience any idea that you want.

It doesn't mean you gotta take it with you, too. Totally. You can go learn the idea. Yes. And then leave the idea behind. I know, I think that's so important to communicate. I actually heard an interesting, I was like doing an Instagram Live today with,

which is like LOL so choo-gee, but I'm saying choo-gee is choo-gee and we're gonna get past this moment now, but I was doing an Instagram. Cringe. Cringe. Cringe. And it's okay. You're freaking me.

As long as you don't name your child Adolf Hitler, you can do anything you want. As long as you don't name your child Nutella. That's crazy. Crazy selling. Nutella is fun. It's also a nice name. That's a nice name. I wonder if Nutella themselves has anything to do with it.

Honestly, I bet you they do. Those goddamn Dutch hazelnut bastards. Yeah, genuinely. Did they trademark it like a Paris Hilton and that's hot? They're like, you can't, I don't know. Any fucking way. Maybe they have to tell you if it looks like a Nutella. I'm gonna be thinking about that for the next 10 minutes.

Okay, but I was doing this dumbass Instagram live. No, it was very special. Anyway, I was in conversation with Jane Borden, who's a writer who wrote a book about utopia called Cults Like Us and like apocalypticism, she's cool. And she was saying that a cult leader, and there are so many cool like axioms and quotes a book about utopia called Cults Like Us and like Apocalypticism. She's cool. And she was saying that a cult leader, and there are so many cool like axioms and quotes to like help define what a cult leader is because it actually is like, again, kind of

nebulous, but she was saying a cult leader is halfway between an abusive lover and a dictator. Okay. Yes. You know? Like an abusive one-on-one lover and that's a type of cult that I've certainly been in. Hello. Well, yeah, that's even just high control. Just well you can be in a high control group of two.

Literally. Yes, absolutely. And the terminology is different like what might be described as grooming in a one-on-one dynamic could be described as brainwashing in a cult dynamic, but so many of the techniques are the same and I love all of those little axioms and aphorisms and maxims. Sorry, I read the thesaurus this morning. But I love all those different terms to describe. You use good words. Thank you so much. Good, Dome, really nice. It's a defense mechanism. But I love all the little phrases that we have

to help us orient ourselves around what a cult is. Like, quotes like, I'm sure you've heard them, cult plus time equals religion. Or like, a cult is a group where the leader thinks he can talk to God, a religion is a group where that leader is dead. You know? And it's just so interesting because it just,

it illuminates how in the digital age in particular, the definition of what a cult can be is, I think, changing. Yeah. Can I ask some current people that I'm worried about and I wanna get your opinion on it since you're kind of an expert? Oh, I hope I understand the references. Well, I mean, they're very out in the open.

The first one's Kanye and what's going on in that warehouse. What do you know? Oh my God. Doesn't he just do, it's like everyone's saying they're hearing calisthenics being done and music being pumped into Koreatown. I think Kanye has officially crossed into the event horizon. Oh, ye ye by the way. Ye, pardon.

Ye ye, ye ye. Yes. He changed it today. Again, the rebrand, the resurrection. Ye ye. Oh, ye ye, aye aye aye? Ye ye, aye aye aye. It should be illegal.

It should be illegal. It should be illegal. Too south, too far. Well, he's fucked. Yeah, well. Yeah, I think sometimes about when a celebrity crosses from cult followed into cult leader. And I think Kanye is crossing the threshold. You know, he is just... it's the whole thing of...

Do you go crazy because this shit drives you crazy? Because I feel like Kanye Unfortunately wants to be a cult leader. Yeah, I feel like he wanted too much. That's a huge part of it It's like a thing really but he's got a crew following them. Yeah, they're all on the they're all dressed it up together They're all on the got black KKK outfits. I know but that again, that's just they're having fun Like that's for now part of his day. He gets to put the- He had a school that was shut down by the government. It was bad school. It was a bad school.

I think cults are supposed to be fun. Yeah, in a way, right? Yeah. I always kind of think about that with Scientology where I'm so jealous, like the idea of like, you put on your space suit. Exactly. And you got to go in there

and you got all your lapel awards and you go in and you're an admiral of a spaceship. It doesn't matter that you look like a pear. You're going to goddamn space and you're fucking not gay anymore, that's for certain. I know. I'm sure it feels so satisfying to like have a hierarchy to ascend, you know, like instead of just living in pure chaos. The rest of us dogs. Like the rest of us dogs. But yeah, I mean, I don't know the the I guess when thinking about celebrities

and other public figures and who has officially crossed over into that dangerous territory. I mean, of course, like, I think about like, who's using the worst of cultish language. And one of the techniques that signals like, okay, red flag or to me is the thought terminating cliche. And that's a term that this psychologist coined in 1961, this guy named Robert J. Lifton, and it describes a kind of stock expression that's easily memorized, easily repeated, and aimed at shutting down independent thinking or questioning. And this is like the number one most nefarious technique that all cult leaders have in their arsenal.

So like in Sinanon, the group that my dad spent his teenage years in, the key thought terminating cliche was act as if. So if anyone wanted to like question a protocol or express like any kind of pushback because they were feeling cognitive dissonance about their membership in Synanon, someone would say act as if. And it kind of sort of meant fake it till you make it. It was basically like, oh, you're questioning this because you don't yet understand Chuck Diedrich's vision and this trend.

You're not deep in enough. You're not deep in enough. So you need to act as if you understand it until you do, and then certainly you will because Chuck's wisdom, and this reminds me of so much of what you were saying earlier about the pattern getting sucked down the whirlpool. Eventually, you will understand it. It was really effective because if you've sunk 10 years of your life and so much money into this group that was promised to be transcendent and it's not feeling that way anymore, you're

going to be highly motivated to want to trust that thought-terminating cliché. When pushback is met with a phrase like that, and, you know, like, we hear them in everyday life, like, phrases like, boys will be boys, you know, or like, everything happens for a reason, it's all in God's plan. It is what it is.

It is what it is, literally. Those are all thought-terminating cliches. I mean, in QAnon, like, one that I hear all the time or in those type of spaces, it's like someone is, you know, poking a hole in some kind of logic, and someone's someone's like oh you need to do your research The do your research thing is like well That's kind of that really hits on what we were talking about on our episode together about episode

Yes a big the concept of Secret knowledge yeah that you don't have access to and It's literally in Google morons have just Really weaponized it on the internet on the internet Yeah, because the internet's nothing but gate kept little corners that you don't really understand and you feel out We're I feel like that's also part of you and I maybe even what our fascination is into this is that I looked at something like Scientology and there's like always just a little part of me that's like 100% what if it's in the center of this thing what if they

answer I'm looking for us in the center of this little thing here and it's like yeah what are you looking for your life's great power ultimate knowledge all You don't have power and knowledge. All of those things are true at the same time. It's like, yes, like I have, I love my life. I appreciate so much. And yet like, I don't know whether it's capitalism or just like the existential pain of being a human on earth and having like awareness of our own mortality or whatever combination of the both. But like, I, there's always more that I'm gonna wanna know and find out and it always feels like the secret to life is just around the corner, you know? And it's how it feels.

It is how it feels. But that's why it's very lucky you wrote this book because the secret of life is actually in this book. It's actually in this. It's in Cultish, the Language of Fanaticism by Amanda Montell. No. And the answer's in here.

I do have a couple, another person I want to ask about if that's alright. Please. How do we feel about Mr. Beast? I don't trust this motherfucker. I'm terrified of this guy. Are we taking shots of Mr. Beast? I just saw some people, everyone's like, oh are we? We have an episode coming up. We have an episode coming up. I can't wait to listen. This guy is terrifying.

Can I also ask something genuinely? What's the difference between a bad boss and a cult leader? Oh? Like that's the thing mr. Beast seems You can't I do I do think like when you go down the checklist that you know folks like Robert J Lifton have have put together One that always pops out at me is exit costs. Like what is, how high is the barrier to exit and what do you feel like you'll lose when you leave? Yes. Sometimes it's just psychological. I don't know. We haven't recorded the episode yet and and actually my my co-host Reese member sweet Reese love me so much. I love both of

my my culty hosties Reese and Chelsea everybody please go check them out but they Reese is going to be handling that episode and I just can't wait to listen and learn more because you know the weird thing is that like because the podcast about is about the cultish groups we all follow what we'll just like never run out of topics and I can never know about them all so I'm excited to tune into that one as a listener. No that's honestly that's very fascinating I would like to listen to that too because he's somebody that I don't trust.

I got my eye on this motherfucker. Especially when he did the thing that humble brag where he's like you know I actually don't have any money myself I had to borrow money from my mother to do blah blah blah and you're like what the fuck are you talking about? The performative populism. I know you don't you piece of shit. Fuck you. money for my mother to do blah blah blah and you're like what the fuck the performative shit I guess so mad I like literally no one flipped me out the most about it was like I had never heard about him and then I was just like then I had like my

my godson was staying with me he's like can we watch mr. beast videos like sure whatever the fuck you want I'll give a shit and then uh he puts it on I'm like hundred million views so wild Deal with the fucking devil I'm so curious to know what's in your YouTube algorithms right now. Oh my shit's all Disney stuff. It's fucking It's how I it's how I make this stuff so aggravating in the body cam footage Yeah, this is I've been following all I've been watching every single day of the Lori Vallow trial and P did he draw okay and all my goblins yeah yeah yeah it's just funk music and Disney for me with the Diddy trial do you think that now that they're trying to get him on the rack of tearing I find it interesting that if you look at sort of what Diddy did versus what Keith Raniere did, they are both similar.

But it's interesting to see, because he has no central like doctrine, it's just about glistening pornography. That's all he wanted to make. I do perceive Diddy, is that what we're calling him? Sean Coles. Yeah, I do perceive him as a cult leader. Some documentary came out right before the trial that I watched late at night

I did not have good dreams and I but I yeah, I was like wow This feels like a cult story you should listen to the trial footage I was very very interesting because what you're seeing is the defense and everybody else is doing the same thing is basically the constant Oh, she benefited. So there's no way she could have been an involuntary part of the system. That literally feels like defenses that people make of cult leaders.

It really does. It was all voluntary. Well, because I do understand at one point, but when you hear about the actual detail of how else all the freak-offs, same thing. It's like, oh, no, I'm not saying from my own self that it's all voluntary. You're allowed to like freak-offs.

You're allowed to want to make and do and produce freak offs Amanda. That's not your fault Oh my god But no, it's the we just can't be a guard at the door. It's the Hallway video with did he shows exactly what you get that is Yes, and that is the crime. Yes, and then Keith Raniere same thing You can have a bunch of skinny women in a field if you want, sure. But once you start branding them, that's when everybody's going to get real upset.

Literally. Like, I should make a Coachella Midsommar, like, ventigraf. You really should do it. And then we should really take it back, and we should be monetizing these brands. Honestly. You really should be wearing a shirt with the with the brand with sounds like a cult brand image.

Yeah, I'm talking about like with that with the iron. I do. I yeah, yeah, I do. I do need to get more into merch. Y'all are so good at your careers. Yeah, you do. We'll talk a little bit later. I know my Eddie's deli shirt.

I love it. I love it. New March New March alert. But speaking of this is in China. My Eddie's deli shirt. I love it, I love it. New merch, new merch alert. But speaking of, this isn't merch. No, this is actual work. This is work that you've done here. I do care, I do care that it's pretty. I honestly, you did it.

You should, you should. You're an elegant woman. Oh my God. And you wanted to look elegant. No one's ever called me that. You're a very elegant lady, look at this. Thank you so much. What would you do if a bunch of people

just started following you and like anything you say? I'm into it. Would you denounce it? I would totally deny. It's very stressful to me When does last podcast and I left become a cult I've been working on it well This this lady over here I've been working on it. Well, this lady over here Henry Zabrowski's thought Academy, I'm gonna make your thoughts. I would love to And that is the thing and we've been saying this the whole time like we critique what we love Yeah, we love and that is like the lifelong journey that I'm gonna be on is like teetering Every second I'm just gonna be like on the edge of falling into a cult starting a cult and that's and and and I and I

Won't apologize He's thought Academy fake breasts for your thoughts Carpenters dream Check out the language of fanaticism, cultish, Amanda Montell, smart lady, huh? Sweet, sweet man. Smart fucking lady, huh? A smart lady, if you can imagine it.

Take a look at it, huh? If you can imagine it. Sounds like a cult podcast. Check it out, we're all podcasts are found. Now you gotta get out of here before our studio catches on fire. Yeah, unfortunately. Oh no, it is very hot and vivid today.

We have called ICE on ourselves. Oh my God. Yes, it is just, just cause honestly, I'm looking for a break. Honestly, it's just a little, a little Priz time, you know. Take me ICE. Yeah, I got crushed ICE. Yeah, great.