Last Podcast On The Left - Side Stories: EARONS & Incels

Episode Date: May 3, 2018

Frankly, there's too much news. But on today's Side Stories, Ben 'n' Henry recap the recent arrest of the Golden State Killer and explore the world of incels with Sara Gardephe (director of the documentary "Shy Boys: IRL"). We'll be back on Friday with another main episode of LAST PODCAST ON THE LEFT. Hail yourself!

There's no place to escape to. This is the last talk. On the left. Right above your glass. That's when the cannibalism started. What was that? Oh, yeah! Man, I took...

I did just go to the bathroom. You did. From Heaven, Brazilian barbecue, it finally came out. Because it's been sitting inside. And it still spelled like the house specialty. All right. Well, welcome to Side Stories, everybody. I am Ben Kissel

with Henry Zaprowski, and I want to say on behalf of Marcus Parks and all of us here at the last podcast on the left, happy birthday, Henry. You don't look a day over 34. 34. Wow. The sexiest, most important age.

Everyone looks to the 34-year-olds and say, what's next? What's next for our generation? And you know what I say? CBD creams. I believe that. People are just going to be covered. They are just weed popsicles

at this point. The vast majority of folks nowadays. I smoked a joint last night. It was called a dragon joint that Eddie gave me for my birthday. And it had shatter in it and hash. And it was covered in keef all around the outside of it. Honestly, I'm not even sure what shatter is.

I know it's a weed thing. So I'm smoking it with Jackie. And I was just like, wow, what's the difference? Why does this have all this weed technology? And it's not even making me any more stone than normal. Cut to me sitting like a chicken on the edge of the couch

watching, we watched Southbound last night. And we were both scared out of our minds. And I couldn't even feel comfortable enough to fully recline. I was like, oh, that's what shatter is. Two stone to relax. So we obviously, we're going to get to the original

Night Stalkers. We're going to talk about that in just one second. A little bit later out of this episode, we have an interview with the director of Shy Boys, a fascinating documentary, a fascinating look into the in-cell community. Her name is Sarah Gardafee. So make sure you stick around and listen to that,

some fascinating stuff. But I guess we have the big news of the week, huh, Henry? People are so excited in a way how many people happily sending me a message being like, did you hear about the Iran's case? And I was like, I know that it's been around.

We played the calls that the Iran's made back in the day when one of our first 9-1-1 episodes, which we do these heinous calls. And I don't know if I'm giddy about this. For those of you who don't know, the East Area Rapist slash original Night Stalker

slash the Golden State Killer was a turn murderer who operated from 1976 to 1986, thereabouts. There's also crimes that were attributed to another character named the Vasalia Ransacker that was from 1973 to 1975. All of which now seems to be through DNA evidence

are tied to a man named Joseph James D'Angelo Jr. And this happened last week. Basically the day we released our nexium episode was the day that he was officially caught. And the line of information that goes that connects all of these things back

to this guy and the way that they caught him now, Timmy is the most interesting part of this story. Absolutely. And of course, again, it is great that he's caught 40 years too late. He is 72 years old and I will say the news media coverage always aggravates me

when it comes to these kind of cases. The first story I heard about was that he was depressed. They say that is the original Night Stalker. He's depressed. He's on Suicide Watch. Do it. End your life. Or actually don't. Suffer through a trial

and get sentenced and go to prison because that's exactly where this guy who was for all intents and purposes hiding in plain sight, he belongs behind bars. Well, he's definitely 72 years old. Like, you know, some people you want to say like you're non-new, you know, when you

have your non-new or your Papu that you know at home and you say he's 4 years young. Yes, yes. My grandmother just passed away. My grandmother just passed away, 89. I would say 89 years young. All she had was a walker. Her brain was about it was, you know, she knew

what was going on. So I say 89 years young. Yes, you're right. Joseph James DeAngelo had that sort of like his face is kind of sinking in because of the rage that he's felt this whole life that's aging him into a fucking skeleton and finally gets to die in jail. So to go over a little bit about

Iran's and the background. So the part is when we do a show, when we cover Killer on Last Podcast, a lot of times it's like we like to have the whole story. We don't really like unsolved cases because then where are you at? Right. It's just a bunch of scary details and then there's no arc. There's no ending. So now it's like we're starting to hear a little

bit more about this guy's life and how it connects to these crimes and they do very eerily match up. The one thing about Iran's is that when I was, there's obviously many sources of information now about there that you can get into. And there was Michelle McNamara's new book, I'll Be Gone in the Dark, obviously

was a brand, the latest chapter in this saga of Pat Noll's, Walt's wife who has passed, who was also a true crime writer. She has been a force that seems to be brought a lot of attention back to this cold case. But there

were several other books that were done that I want to read that were written closer to the time when the material first hit the internet. The amount of information on this guy is quite extensive. So it is fascinating that it took all these years to find him.

We also want to, a little bit later on here after Henry gets those names, talk about how law enforcement found him. And again I am thrilled that he's caught. But it is interesting to think what kind of world we currently live in. They found him through a distant relative who had signed up for Ancestry.com. I think a lot of folks

who do Ancestry or 23andMe don't expect that information to be privy. The government to be privy to that information. So that for me was a little bit of like, uh-huh. That's kind of a fascinating sort of dystopian type

present that we are living in. Well that's kind of halfway a minority report, right? Because technically we did not know that they would be able to scan this information that we gave. The idea is that you can go and ping it. And technically they have to go and find. I like to think our researchers

will give me a bunch of information on this. And it takes a lot to design a search warrant in order to search for one of these through one of the databases of this type. But what we're discovering now is that when this popped out, I mean they have been

they say that the newest book, Michelle McNamara's book had nothing to do with the resurgence and information about this crime. And the resurgence of the trying to break open this cold case. But it seems to be at some point they had a tag looking for this DNA to show up. They've had this DNA sitting there for a while

DNA evidence from these various crime scenes from the Iran's criminal. And they were waiting for a ping and it finally fucking happened. There are two books that came out about Iran that you can also read besides just Michelle McNamara's book. One was called Sudden Terror and the other one

was called Hunting a Psychopath. And there's several, what I like now is because now that the information has been sitting there for fucking 40 years and the internet has been obsessed with this case for years because of the recorded calls that are super fucking scary. We should actually probably play that. But there's like so much

information now aggregated online. There was a really great website called www.coldcase slash irans.com. Okay. That is a I've learned quite a bit about the the scale of these crimes. Now he is a very dangerous human being. Oh, absolutely.

What we are now going to see is that he did up to 50 sexual assaults and he also closely monitored his own footage. So essentially he would watch the news reports about his own crimes and then change his crimes accordingly. Right. Where they knew at some point they knew enough that he this guy knew

enough about law enforcement procedures that he must be a cop that the Sacramento Police Department had the entire Police Department DNA scan like it basically had to do double check against everything. He also he the escalation is so clear like what we talk about with

serial killers all the time is that they they grow to murder and when you see the the extent of his crimes and how scary they were and the MO's are all exactly the same. He would put them down on the ground he would break into the house while they're asleep he would wake them up from a

dead sleep he would tie their hands around their back a lot of times he would make them put his very tiny penis in their hands and they'd be like play with it play with it which is fucking disgusting and bad and he also had a tiny penis. He had a very tiny penis which then leads to my they say that again and again he had much

smaller than average and I think now I have a theory that tiny penis men are more likely to become serial killers and big dick men are more likely to become cult leaders like Jim Jones and Rasputin. Alright well that's a Henry Zabrowski theory right here on Side Stories and you know what do some research on it

see if it holds true. They were packing Rasputin's packing Jim Jones is packing they went to lead people and then the tiny penis people do like small fucking awful shit and so I think is that is that a chapter in Michelle McNamara's book? I don't know. I don't know

but so he would do the same thing it grew to so it started a sexual assault he would yell at them you know don't move or I'll kill you and he would do the sexual assault it then he saw a news report at some point saying well he's attacking women alone in their homes and so it seems

to up his own ante he began to attack couples while they were asleep and he would tie up the man at gunpoint with the woman at gunpoint and he'd say both of you don't need to move I'm gonna take you in the room I'm gonna have sex with you that's all I want and I want your money he'd go he would put a plate a stack of dishes on the back

of the man and he's like if I hear these dishes move I'm gonna come in here and I'm gonna kill him and I'm gonna kill you he would go commit the sexual assault and sometimes the middle sexual assault he'd leave and seem to have like a comfort about him where he'd go make food he'd eat in the kitchen he'd do all these very very brutal

shit and eventually all of this led up to which then became known as the original night stalker murders in the from 1979 to 1981 so you see a massive the his escalation was huge he somehow managed to allude the

police which now we're gonna find out it's because he was a cop yeah from 1973 to 1979 two different precincts from 73 to 76 he was a cop in Exeter from 76 to 79 he was a cop in Auburn which I suppose gave him a lot of the insight into police work

obviously being a cop and I would assume that's also why he was able to avoid being caught for so long well he he knew what they were doing he was also promptly fired like he was promptly he was fired in 1979 for shoplifting a hammer and dog repellent which is

the thing that they said that maybe explains a lot of times why there was a dog at the scene of the crime or there was a dog at the scene the crime and nothing happened because they also see several points it's like when you read through the attacks especially if you read one of these books are on this cold case website you go one by one this shit was scary as fuck

because he would show up and he would he would stalk his victims for a long time I don't know how he had time to be a cop where it's like he would do this you would it would play out over a month you would come in he'd feed the dog meat they would go back in the backyard there was

like cases where they find the dog out back with an empty thing a hamburger meat where he's fucking feeding the dog so he's acting like Tim Curry in the beginning of the movie clue just throwing steak to the dogs to keep him quiet for a little while and then channeling his inner Kathleen Turner from serial mom and stalking these

people over the phone yes and then he would do follow-up calls which is where we got the recorded calls from the east area rapist says that he would do these follow-up calls where he'd call and he'd freak him out he called the police and tell them I'm the east area I'm the east area rapist and I'm gonna fuck tonight he was doing this again and

so now we're saddled with this right is it right so he's caught and he's in jail so what does it mean like and and will he stay in jail do we want to play a clip from one of these phone calls I think this would be a good time to to hear just the the horror

and the terror that this man caused in this community is here Two, three, four. Two, three, four. Five, six, seven, eight. Go all the way over there.

Four, eight. Seven, eight. One, two. One, two. One, two. One, two. One, two. One, two.

Nothing more. Not nice. All right, and again, that is why I'm not sad that he's depressed Yeah, I'm not sad that he's depressed. What a maniac and so now was that a Precursor to an attack those calls or was that something that he did afterwards just to continually have these people these victims live in fear He did it before and after and the support of this this guy's just such a I mean obviously He's a real jerk. Thank you. No McDonald. Yeah, that's gonna be overstated But uh, it's reminds me of BTK, right? We're technically he is a very he Did a very thorough job. You have to be a type of prick that can do it

So consistently well that you don't get caught like a part of it's like you have to be so exacting very military like he did it again Again, apparently everyone said that Uh, Joseph James D'Angelo himself was a real fucking prick, which does not remind me That's like Dennis Rader also same thing where they said he was a real asshole But it also fucking shows that you can do all these crimes. So he got married Somewhere around 1979. He had his first kid in 81 The crime stopped and then the second murder happened in 86 then he had his second daughter In like 87 and then it stopped. It's in a fucked-up way. It shows that a serial killer can just stop being a serial killer

Which is totally fascinating, right? Because usually I mean what happened to BTK and it didn't happen to D'Angelo Again, he was caught with ancestry calm BTK threw himself back into the ring. Well, he was No one was talking about. Yeah, he couldn't stand anybody taking credit for his fucking super clever murders This guy is such a prick that some point that he got it out of his system and then he just let it all go That's if everything holds crazy now. We're at a point where it's like we're gonna see whether or not this Dvd DNA evidence can even hold and now it's going into like is it legal to go and scan a Ancestry website for your DNA, right? They're hiding the they're hiding the identity of the relative that

Did sign up for the website because they got to because basically what they did was it pinged on their DNA, right? And they went through their family tree to find the dude that was age-appropriate then they stake the guy out So just like he one of his victims he's walking around like goddamn someone keeps taking my garbage cans You know because you know someone's taking his garbage cans to fucking piece of shit You got fucking get him every time you can the police are watching him. They wait until he leaves They have his whole schedule down. They go through his garbage. They find some shit from his garbage That's how they get the DNA match Then they do just like they did with Robert Hansen where they sat and they just waited for him to come home

And they said his biggest problems that they when they arrested him He said wait, I have a roast in the oven. What a total maniac. So to that point Henry was talking about the marriages and I saw He was engaged to a woman named Bonnie in 1970 Bonnie married a different guy And there were some articles being like that's what triggered him and I just want to really clarify here Bonnie did not start She did not start all of us have had our heart broken all of us have been broken up with Like come on research into Ted Bundy, right? They did the same they try to do the same thing every true crime book tries to make it that Ted Bundy broke up with his fucking girlfriend in college who said that she was too good for him and

That was the amputus from then on that he killed women that looked like his ex-girlfriend Right because she tried to say that she was too good for him and that's not why they kill Ted bunny was born a fucking Month yeah, that's a very dangerous the narrative. That's a very dangerous media narrative also just as You know just as they do with Columbine It's like get it right folks because this has real ramifications. No the guy guy was bad, right? Ted Bundy was a bad dude everybody that got close to him said the same thing. There's a shallowness to Ted There's something that's like one of you look in his eyes. It's like a fucking a doll's eyes He's got nothing going on he'll just say like hi. How are you and you could tell he's been rehearsing in the mirror

How to say hi how are you right where it's like this guy that I can pretty much guarantee the same thing when more Information comes out about him. He's not talking to that's it He won't speak to the police about any of his crimes And once they finally break good crack is not because it really depends on what level his ego is right because some killers They just love talking like fucking bumblebutt like he fucking loved talking because it got him right cuz he got to talk to cops Where it seems like I mean Ed Kemper like talking so much. He did books on tape didn't yeah? Oh, yeah Which has got to be so bizarre you love this Anne of Green Gables, it's read by Edmund Kemper Oh, very good. He had a baritone. It was very lovely. I mean you don't like this

But this fucking guy is going to Probably it seems like he has contempt for the police sure you see in the middle of that one call where she's like I'm gonna fuck again Tonight you fuckers where it's just they also say how he talks. That was the traditional way of the irons talking I think probably to disguise his voice it's interesting you mentioned you mentioned law his wife He ended up marrying in 73. I believe they were divorced In around 82. No, she was actually a lawyer. So fuck was a cop. She was a lawyer Meanwhile, it's a sitcom. It's a sitcom if he's not a serial I mean technically this is a show time show what we're talking about

Like if you could get away with the sum of the sex of some of the violence It's a very compelling show, but in reality it's very dangerous, but I don't understand his people's obsession with this story I mean besides it's because it's just so scary is it when you read this story It's really just does it does the thing that like if a guy wants to fucking kill you enough if he really wants to He'll stake you out for a month and he'll get in that house and he'll kill you and it's just you could see you the So now I kind of get I get the giddy Expression like I get a bunch of yeah, I think it's a bunch of joy that they got him You know, yes, but it's also going through this story. It's it's so brutal like every single one of these

It's like as you read each each attack and you go through being like this guy You're watching him get bored with himself and then challenge himself and then get bored and then challenge This guy was a real piece of fucking work and now it's I'm mostly just sad that he made it to fucking 72 Like it's now this thing where are we now now that we got him It's like I hopefully will learn some more from him, but it's fucking dangerous shit You could just be unless you get off on danger just the idea of it is very fucked up. It's the same thing as BTK What an interesting BTK obviously found through a floppy disk sort of the DNA of a disk obviously he being caught through his own biological DNA

But then we had a time 40 years ago where he got away with making phone calls that were it like nowadays You do not have that ability like no, I mean, I guess they didn't even have star 69 back in the day Where you can call back the number. I mean talk about where we have come with technology I don't think that he ever thought he would be caught and I think he was probably fairly surprised Oh, I imagine he was basically in tech especially at the end I imagine he was very surprised I figured that he had he got he's he got a permanent smile on his face I'm always gotten away with these crimes, but now we got him which is good I also say that the technology is probably also the reason why we have a big dip in serial killer

Activity well unless you look at the Toronto serial killer, which we still haven't even gotten a fucking chance to get to yes How much to crime news has happened in the last three weeks that we can't get to the new Toronto serial killer because each week is a new fucked up Yes headline and and to that point where we're gonna discuss here again with Sarah the Alec Malaysia and the man who did the spree van killing basically of ten injury multiple other ones Do you think I was talking about this? I think with with Marcus What do you think the phenomenon of mass shooting is because you cannot serial kill any longer? It's it's almost impossible

So now you kind of have to snap and do what paddock did in Vegas do with this maniac did in Toronto It seems that's more common now. Well, what we have is I'm gonna say it's almost It's like a dip in patience Everybody wants everything now right so back in the day of criminals mentality is like serial killers Do what they do a lot of the times foreign attention and they're trying to feel important So what they do is they they were killing something as almost a view as an alternative career Like you could see that this guy viewed himself especially the

Eurons case that he viewed himself as somebody bitter and bigger and Smarter than the rest of humankind yet a superiority fucking complex because of his tiny fucking dick and balls that didn't work So they would go he would Uh He would do these long-term crimes in order to make a mark in the world because there was nothing else that he could do He'd so he would kill so but the problem is that now with mass shootings because of our 24 hour A four hour news cycle and because of what we're dealing with and because of the because of social media you get famous

Instantly you get the kick that you want instantly you become a somebody so we're really looking at is just sort of The lack of attention span in our criminals Kessel and that they I mean we know that how to read a book Maybe it's not your way I mean you could go out and you could really hone your musical skills You can become extremely famous at your art and get on the cover of the Rolling Stone Or you can be Sharnoff and blow up the Boston Marathon or you could be Charles Manson and have a death cult You could do these other things there the the reward the validation is getting on the cover of these Publications, I think our media has handled a lot of these cases completely ass-backwards

And they put them on a pedestal as opposed to what we do on our show try to tear them down to the schmuck level that they are Well, there was a put this is what he oh and I can guarantee this guy got off on the legend of Iran's growing each year and especially with the internet specific obsession with it and Now that the now that the story is going to be over I'm I'm interested to see if he what his reactions are. Do you think that he has a do you think there's any sense of relief? Do you think now he's like I'm gonna do my I'll do the epilogue now And it's gonna be my a big trial and he or do you think he resigns himself and just sort of goes into the cell and shut

If if my money is on he will say nothing He will go down silently and he will not give anybody any sort of satisfaction I think that this is a guy that is probably gonna be very bitter about being caught I think that he will sit and not talk about it I think because we have some of those killers that are very they're like that now You know, I mean like I mean David Berkowitz. He stopped talking about the crime So it's only because he found Jesus Christ, so he became so that's his whole thing He'll only talk about Jesus. He won't talk about a son of Sam Murders. You've got

I'm trying to think of other it's like it's kind of like a dictator. It's a he sounds like a deposed Dictator, I think that he will sit there and he will not Give anybody sort of sad any sort of sad. All right, which is the word cuz like Ted Bunny was like a showman Right where Ted Bunny came and he's like now's my time to shine It is like he got there and really fucking sell it in the courtroom where I think that this this guy I mean he's a for real deal fucking monster. He was also no he was on none of the list He was never a suspect he completely went under the radar like and they now I just wonder though, but are they gonna use the way they caught him as a way to constantly monitor us monitor us as well

Like yeah, that I mean that's that's that's the scary part about it Cuz no one will no one can say they are not happy that this maniac this mass murderer Serial assaulter is is caught no one can say they're upset with it But it is an interesting conversation that we're gonna continue to have going forward I just wish the jokes were more complex than just how small his dick and balls are because the thing is that it's That's what's hard for us as on last podcast is like now we're taking things a little bit more serious You've got your glasses on which I think is great I'm saying it's like we're trying to have more like of an active discussion about these types of cases on side stories

But we could see how it's difficult to bridge this over to last podcast because it's hard to create a character of this person Because yeah, he has bottled bottled himself up so tight It's so difficult to see on the inside of what this person is. He's become a blank He's become nothing which is sort of like the new Joaquin Phoenix. I'm you're never really there or you're not really Well, I saw what's up like that with the hammer and shit where this guy made a His whole life was disappearing was doing a crime and then disappearing so now we're gonna see you what happens That he is being put on blast and see if he changes his story at all well, and and we will keep you up to date on this we'll speak in a folks with

with issues of Masculinity and perhaps genitalia size we're gonna interview Sarah Gartofie She is the director of shy boys a great documentary You can find it on Vimeo and it's she kind of broke into the incel world And explored their mentality and obviously in the wake of the Toronto what I believe terror attack with that van This is an important thing to keep an eye on and she's still alive. She did so good Very very difficult to do. Um, yes, so we'll be speaking with Sarah now So today we have a we have someone who directed a documentary on the incel community

Sarah Gartofie is with us. Sarah. Thank you so much for being here Hello, thank you for having me and you directed this documentary for your senior thesis, which I'm sure really like freaked out the class Which is awesome. It's a 30-minute doc. It's called shy boys and you were sort of on this incel tip before it was a mainstream Conversation, um, so yeah, it's a little strange for me because I thought of my documentary is more of a playful romp rather than in the context of Tragedy a playful romp. That's something that not a lot of involuntary celibate people have I think that's one of the problems You so when you decided to First of all Congrats that you lived

I'm so glad that you you made it through and that you didn't have to deal with them too bad And you weren't turned into a mannequin of any sort. You weren't like the god knows But when you went what made you choose to do to look into this group? Well, actually originally I I think I was on like the IMDB page for a 40 year old virgin. Oh, yeah, of course Steve Carell the classic Yeah, so, you know the the forum boards were pretty active on that particular film So 40 year old virgin for these people. Do you think they saw it as like a drama? Yeah, no, they related pretty hard to it And then they ended up starting this like offshoot forum called love shy calm. Okay, and then, you know, I got access to that

So when you first were starting to sort of dig your way through some of these comments that the incel community were Uh, were espousing what were some Things that you found interesting enough compelling enough to be like I am going to make a documentary about these folks well, I guess it was surprising sort of the the Uh, battling theories on the forum of like why they couldn't get laid. Oh, there's like two separate factions There's like the looks guys versus like the confidence guys and there's just a lot of debate about it So it was people who felt to maybe they're physically attractive, but they don't have the confidence and maybe some people who thought they were physically unattractive But we're very confident. Yeah, exactly interesting. Well shy boys never get a chat

I mean the shy boys will never beat a Chad at getting a Stacy, right to use the terminology And they have to get I forget what's the other it's like a Stacy and I forget what's the other term for like a quote-unquote normal woman Oh, I'm not sure. I mean the the terminology has changed a lot since I was embedded Right. Yeah, there's an entire website that I've been I go through which is basically they talk about I've ever heard the term the manosphere. Yeah, what okay, so let's get into that So how did you get did you get a decoder ring in the mail like a Christmas story? So you could figure out what the heck these people are talking about when they speak of Chad's speak of Stacy's How did you start realizing the terminology as you sort of went through?

I mean, I spent a year with these people talking on the forums talking every night on the phone We would have like long conversations into the night. Really? What was so how did you even get a hold of them in the first place? I mean, I contacted the guy who runs the love shy forum Okay, yeah, he he went to film school and wanted to be a filmmaker, but it was too shy to pick up a camera So he was very excited that I wanted to make a film about them Oh, okay. Now when you spoke with them, do you feel that you made any I think your doc is I mean, it's very interesting and you do see at least the main guy you're speaking to seems to open up

A little bit more But did you feel that you had an influence on them or like there was like anything in there? Or it's like like how were they around you the one there was one dude? I'm sorry because I saw it from the last time we were covering this topic. There was the one guy that was the Uh heavily pockmarked in shy boys. That was a urban white trash. Yes. He seemed to be the one That was the head. I like you brought out almost a hostile energy. Oh, yeah, he was posturing a lot Well, he was into the pickup artist stuff. So, uh, yeah, uh, yes Brilliant good for the big hat industry the pickup artists, but that was about it

So we're at any point. Did you feel like? Uh in understanding when it comes to what because my girlfriend brook roger She also wrote an article on it the more you do a deep dive I think people initially maybe want to understand and then they realize wow, there is just a lot of very angry rhetoric Did you ever? sort of Grasp why their main motivation for kind of going down this road and allowing themselves To normalize this really sexist behavior

They definitely trapped themselves in sort of an echo chamber and anything I said they would just Dispute it and sort of bounce off them. I don't think anything sunk in too much But yeah, I mean what what was their response be when they would when it was like this is This is why we believe this. This is why we believe we're involuntarily celibate. What was their motivation? A lot of it is they hate themselves and They sort of want to collect reasons why they They want to blame everybody else where they feel this way about themselves. Yeah And so they seem to believe that they're owed something extra and they also

seem to Kind of uh, I don't know what would be the term like how what they do with sex and this idea of this sort of exchange Like it's something that you you get you give and you get and it's a thing that they don't get and that you guys withhold And women withhold and they will not give to men and they believe that they are owed it Which is a very uh, like it's a very strange thing to come about independently I wonder if they are taught that or if it's just the internet has driven them deep Inside especially because if they they hate themselves or feel ugly They then are trying to find a reason for it. I mean, yeah

That's definitely one of the more dangerous theories that I saw on the forum There's this guy his name was franklyn schmidt and I don't feel bad about Saying his real name But he was this older guy who kind of led this faction On the forums and he believed that all american women deserve to be raped and um, I ended up interviewing this guy and I sort of Inadvertently ended up alone with him and he was just like sweaty upper lip the entire time Staring at me being like you deserve to be raped and he actually got in trouble for kidnapping a woman A high school student actually jesus christ, but yeah, he uh

Yeah, that was definitely more so how do you gauge? rhetoric Versus action when this person because that that is obviously disgusting When do we as a society say the rhetoric is now turned to a point where they were about to become Violent cells like we saw in toronto with the van attack Alec manasian There were red flags all around how do we maintain obviously that was in canada So they don't really have a first amendment the way that we do but how do we maintain?

internet freedom freedom of speech and also like protecting society from these people who are espousing again I think isis level amounts of aggression towards women I mean, I'm not sure because I think the majority of people who identify as incel I mean They're a lot of them are impressionable because they spend a lot of time online and and not so much Interacting outside socially with people it seems like they need to be broken almost like they're in a cult they need to be Shudder reprogrammed reprogrammed. Yeah, they need to be like stolen and being like hey the the total reeducation Which is very difficult to do one by one and I also wonder

Because that's that's the thing about the internet in general right and what we do and what we talk about on last podcast and when we talk about it as people is that maybe In a fucked up way place like places like and reddit. There's a new subreddit right the incel subreddit was shut down And now it's called brain cells because the idea is you're trying to enlighten discussions about Uh, the incel community and a part of it is like I wonder if it is a placebo to get it out of your system But the problem is to go and say a bunch of hate at a bunch of people and it gets out But then I also wonder if it Uh, if it supports it when a bunch of people jump on and say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and get into it

I've also seen incel forms kind of police themselves like there was this guy in Croatia He had been stalking this woman for months and was like I just bought a gun Um, I'm gonna go shoot her. Okay. So now we have a situation where and he actually purchased the gun He said he was gonna purchase a gun at this point. We have to stop this guy Yeah, so everyone reported him and then he you know Whatever the Croatian version of the FBI showed up and arrested him And I mean he was back on the farm a couple months later, but you know at least well, I got this My girlfriend was sent this document from this guy who was an incel and these were some of his reasons

This is what he proposed. He proposed one women no longer are allowed to wear makeup Ie falsely advertise their beauty and hence stop them from banging guys Above their league. What is what are they talking about? Uh, when they you know, when they address makeup and all of these things and and when they talk about guys above their league It's so weird because they almost gauge Male beauty as much as they gauge female beauty and it seems like they're so It's weird attractive men. Yeah, it's weird that there seem to be like so riled up by all these attractive dudes and all that Well, Henry, I mean honestly

They must be livid with you. I mean Natalie theoretically Wait, you're like you are like the definition of like how did Henry become a Chad and how do I I look better than Henry. How can I how come I can't find someone who was a model? I get it all the time I get it. I get hostile messages Uh from men who like who'll say dumb shit about about the fact that Natalie is much hotter than I deserve And I'm like, well, you got to be funny Do something or do something with your life that that draws people to you So what did you get any gauge of that like they're disdain for also?

I don't know again men who date out of their league and vice versa. Oh, yeah I mean there was advanced who was angry that you know, he would accept a 300 pound woman He said he shoots for bottom of the barrel. I mean and even he can't get that in his mind. It's like that's you know They're so crazy. I will say that I mean, this isn't always the case But um when urban white trash picked me up in a parking lot when we first met the first thing he blurted out to me I like barely opened the car door and he was like, I just knew I just want you to know I would go prison gay. I I would Oh

Out of the gate, you know Maybe that's what's ruining all the first dates for these people just immediately what's interesting about this breakdown that That brooks at new this guy's because he also they're obsessed with points They're obsessed with like it's levels and shit about how like every person start with a 10 out of 10 And every single time a woman has sex she loses a number until she's down with a one of 10 And you can't be with someone you can only sleep with someone who has an equal Uh sexual market value card is what they call to everybody and all this stuff and these because it sounds like video games Not to be completely pedantic, but they're they're acting as if everything's fucking halo including human relationships

Yeah, what's the insight on that and how I mean, how do they have these arbitrary? It's like that show whose line is in any way. It just seems like the scoring is totally arbitrary Yeah, I mean they're trying to make it into a game that they could possibly figure out how to win But uh, I haven't heard of that one of the skills. I've heard of her the hb1 through hb10 Okay hb1 through hb10. What does the hb stand for hb stands for hot babe So you're aiming for an hb10 It doesn't really make sense because and I don't know how you would find an hb1. It's kind of counterintuitive But so they just have this whole worldview this whole mentality that tries to label people based on physical looks

And uh, and then put them in a scale of one to ten and in their own minds Do they bring that onto themselves? Do they self identify with a number? Well, a guy'd be like, I'm tony. I'm a five Uh, or or it's simply something they project onto others from what I understand is they consider themselves to be genetic garbage Sounds a good name for an improv group or a band. It's genetic garbage. We're genetic garbage And we're here to not play very well. It's very ancient when you go through this I was I'm looking at this thing on rational wiki the manospheric glossary Right, it talks about all of these different terms that I've delved through this before and one thing that seems to be coming up Is the advent of I mean, obviously we've had blue pill red pill

But now the concept the concept of a more fatalistic black pill Which is this idea that you take the if you can give somebody the black pill It's just showing that literally you are stuck within This world you will never sleep with anyone ever again You are you've just face it like face it like there's no you can't educate people This is the way it is. Um, and we need to it will all lead to a beta uprising Which is the uh, so they self identify as beta a beta. I hate I hate those terms By the way, like all of my all of my being alpha beta. It drives me absolutely insane

But that's fascinating that they sort of weaponized the term beta. Wait, so are these um, are these guys Who have decided to go vol cell voluntary celibate? That's the voluntary celibate is very interesting too Uh, no, they do do that but some of them will then go all the way to be a vol cell And the the vol cells are a whole other world of even sadder group of of dumpier idiots That are this is the thing is that again, I know where it's like we're talking as if we're supposed to be scared of them I don't I know that they can do horrible shit and they do horrible shit, but I refuse To I refuse to be upset at a bunch of people that would be scared. It's like I can unleash wendy at them Like when you could go and attack them. Oh, well, that's it's a scary dog though. Little dogs are the scariest dogs

I mean a lot. I I don't know if it's so much incel. It's sort of incel combined with mental illness that yeah results in Well, do you think it's a mental illness just by definition? If you're a part of this group in my mind? I'm immediately like you obviously need psychological help. I think that's a lot of it. Also. I think just Uh, I think a lot of them are sort of on the spectrum as well and just feel ostracized from society When you heard of the van attack in toronto, how surprised were you once it came out because everyone was Obviously initially, uh, what's the what's the pigment of this person? We will then identify their religion and then we will clarify if it's terrorism or just someone going rogue And then again, we have now this sort of new incel

Phenomenon that the news media was totally behind on they're like he doesn't seem to have terroristic ideas He hasn't made terroristic threats. Hey, it's women. Anyway, let's move on Uh, were you surprised when you heard? Oh, wow. This is a member of a group that I've been researching Um, no, I mean everyone remembers eliot roger, but of course it's been happening before that I remember the first time I heard of it was george sedine. He was this guy who shot up a curves gym Oh, and he left behind a lot of manifestos and What's so when did that occur that was 2008 2008 so that was would you say that was the first? Moment of violence coming from this community

That's the first one I've heard of and I do remember a lot of people hailed him as a hero And they were like, this is the first shot in the love shy revolution Blood's gonna run in the streets. Well, that was what was so disgusting about uh about the reaction again to the van attack So many people said he is the victim. He's been demonized. He's been Uh marginalized by society by women in general. It's crazy with columbine We saw the same thing where if the narrative that came out of columbine is this idea is that it's easier They have this kind of concept that it's easier to To

Fix the bullying end Of this this like of his problem is that it's everybody else making him feel isolated and that's why he's acting like it Where it's like, no, how do we fix the in the inherent problem that the internet showing? Which is it's kind of forcing us into a corner with which is this kind of involuntary loneliness The no connection because I think that I don't think that there's a divide in the fact that these The the rise of their communities on the internet is leading to violence Like I think being in their echo chambers and not having any sort of outreach to anybody else like what you did Going and meeting with these guys and trying to hear their side of the story is something that a lot of

Not a lot of people are willing to do because of how unpleasant these idiots are going back to that with columbine The media and we've talked about this in our columbine episodes dylan Hey, dylan clibaldon and air cares were the bullies. They were part of a gang the trench coat mafia And the narrative that came out immediately was nerds revenge Shy people's revenge shy boys revenge and that narrative still was permeating a little bit when it came to this van attack And I think we have to totally flip it and realize these people are the bullies These people are the aggressors. These are the ones who want to do harm to everyone else who is just trying to live their life

And I will say that um after making that documentary When the people and it saw the documentary themselves. I will say they made a lot of drastic life changes So we just kind of have to show them Um, they would they did not like the mirror. They did not like looking at who they were not at all Well, that's that's so perfect. Well, I'm so happy that you made that for that reason. I'm so happy Um that it changed some lives Well, three lives. Yeah, three. Hey three lives could save a lot of lives Uh, it just takes one crazy person nowadays

Do you think that the pickup artist's mentality that the the other concept of teaching these guys to get out there and score? Do you think that it's actually do you think it's useful at all or no like these apart? I mean, obviously it's garbage Uh, the the the pickup community, but the idea of like the concept of going omega Which is what they call they're gonna they start killing people essentially is what what that term means And that pickup artists say that's what we do is that the the game Can save your life Is that basically we'll take people that are on the verge of popping off and teach them how to score with the ladies And then everything's good to go

Uh, I think it's more damaging because it just kind of reinforces this idea that sex is something that you can Win from a woman and kind of objectifies women. I think that's more the main problem It's like putting women on a pedestal and hating them for it Just is such a bizarre world view and their solutions to their problems are so extreme and so completely insane You're right. We can't take them We can't be scared of them, but we do have to take them a little bit seriously sure We got to keep an eye on them. That's what I would say I'm gonna keep a little eye on them and for the most part I'm gonna try not to look at them

So what can we do now because reddit has shut down? Their in cell whatever their backslash in cell site They seem to be getting pushed further and further and further down the rabbit hole into the dark web Uh, do you think that that could lead to more? acts of violence or Or do you think it's better not to have them so prevalent on the internet to perhaps normalize what they're talking about And then attract new people I'm concerned that we're in a situation now where there is a lot of pressure on them

There are a lot of people who I'm sure we're tip dipping their toe in who are just like this is not for me any longer I'm concerned it just gets more and more hardened and we see we see more radical cells pop out and now that we have Elliott roger the curves person that you mentioned and uh and menace in there I feel like we have a competition of who can kill the most who can do the most damage I mean, I don't think you're gonna get rid of these groups. I mean it started on like an imdb page You know it literally started with 40 year old version So, I mean they're gonna find places to talk about and I know I know originally it was a woman in 1993 that started at

Who was a involuntary who who identified she was a queer woman And she identified as involuntary to sell a bit and then she kind of began it And then that's what everyone kind of came on and then she was like i'm gonna dip on out of here You guys have gone totally crazy ruin this for me You ruined it, uh as it seems like they ruin a lot of things So, um, yeah, I mean, it's just absolutely fascinating. I guess as a society Uh, we do have to keep an eye on it and we do have to be aware that these groups of people when we see them talking It with such extreme violence

It's the world has changed for them now and I think they need to be taken at their word You know so often we hear these people talk and we just don't even believe them I think at this point we've got to believe what they're saying. You got to trust people If they're saying crazy things And if they want to get off the internet they could always read uh telmer chockley's love shy survival guide written in the 1970s Oh All right. Well, thank you so much for joining Henry. Do you have any other questions? I? I don't know what we can do about this problem

To be honest. I have no clue what the answer is because it seems like They're technically people are allowed to think whatever it is that they want to think but it's but when it leads to violence How do you manage it? Like what do you do do reach out to these people? Right and that's the difficult part for law enforcement also When does it change from rhetoric to actual violence and I mean going back to that story You were talking about with the man who said he was in Croatia said he was going to kill the woman bought a gun It's like okay. Now. We're starting to see the steps there in the direction of actually Having these horrific ideas come to fruition

So thank you so much for joining us and where can people find the documentary? um, you can find it on my vimeo page and where is the vimeo page? Um, well, you can just look up my name Sarah Gardiffy. Sarah Gardiffy. It's s-a-r-a-g-a-r-d-e P-h-e and it's called shy boys. Check out that documentary. I'm so happy I didn't realize that they had watched it and changed their lives. Um, so thank you for doing that Uh, that is a massive service to uh, to the entire country to the world Uh, as a whole. Um, all right. Well, thank you so much. Sarah Gardiffy. Check out her doc. Thank you. Man when I wasn't

Getting any touch at all. I was fine. Yeah, I think you know, you might have been doing better than ever I think you were a little bit nicer. Um, you know when I was getting to when I wasn't getting touched Yeah, just a kind gentleman. I think you've only ever known me with a girlfriend Yeah, that's possible. Although maybe I'm trying to think at the time I was just too groovy to be dated Yeah, that's right. Well, you had the dashiki on college, you know, you were out there wheeling and dealing Um, yeah, I mean that was that's absolutely fascinating man. These communities. I guess we got to keep an eye on them I'm gonna keep a tab on it. It's good that we know them, you know

Well, I'm just the promise I don't want to get lunch with these people Like we're supposed to fix them by going and hanging out and fucking queer eye from the shriek hiding these guys Like I don't think that's who that's an idea. Yes queer eye Queer eye for the straight guy. We give them guns In cell addition in cell and then we have them go in there. It's like scared straight But with gay men against fat don't be little incel dudes where they go in the putting a gun in the face being like You're gonna learn how to make fucking guacamole using cottage cheese Like you're gonna do it again and again

Yeah, I think yes, that is what we have to do queer eye for the straight guy They are the only saviors to stop the incel problem. I honestly think that I think that karamo Can do anything like he can go. I'm scared of that fucking man That handsome guy from queer eye. He is going to be president He'll sell he sells things like he'll do a thing where someone someone will say be like Yeah, that reminds me of I had a clown on my bedroom. It's like clown, huh? Sometimes you all feel like a clown. Do you ever feel like maybe you do things just for other people's amusement? You ever to try to like, you know open up yourself and be proud of yourself and it was like what like he always switches

And he's got their story his story. He's gonna be dictator of america It could well I I'm all for it. Um, all right everyone. Well, thank you so much for listening to side stories Uh, really appreciate it. You can find us on social media. Henry loves you. Dr. Fantasty ben kissle ben kissle one instagram Yeah, and we got a great episode of the last podcast this week coming out for you too. Yeah, it's gonna be real fucking nice Oh, you're gonna like it Thank you so much for listening to this again And I just want to say if you got stories you want us to cover you have any you have opinions to fucking express Do it through the last podcast network at gmail.com because we see those things

I try not to read too many of my um ads on twitter Well, you got to be careful for your own mental stability and your own mental health But uh, yeah, so shoot us an email. Let us know what you guys want us to cover and we'll try to do our best again As Henry said before there are like there's so much going on, uh, especially in the true crime world So we'll just try to pick the stories that uh, we find to be most compelling and the most significant for the genre We'll serve it to your assholes There it is. Hail yourselves everyone. Hail Satan. Thank you. I do. We need a new sign off for us for this

I'm a I don't think so. We can do a magus dilation. I mean I um day here's looking at you No, keep on listening keep on loving and learning You know, I kind of like that one. Thank you listening loving and learning triple l triple l Well, that's perfect. Thank you sir