Last Podcast On The Left - Sovereign: An Interview with Christian Swegal

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

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Wow. I never thought that we would head back into these stormy waters, Ed. You love these waters. I do. And I get used to these waters. I'm used to the temperature of these waters. I'm used to the... You, like, bought a jacuzzi for these waters. I, like, bought, like, a condo symbolically to look upon these waters like it's my favorite view of the city. And what we're talking about is the tumultuous waters of the things. philosophical world of the sovereign citizen. And we all know that they, we, we're, everybody that it listens to the last podcast and the left knows, this is a pet subject of mine.

I can't tell if you love it or hate it. I put them below, my ironic embracement of them is below Scientology, only just because Scientology has uniforms. Okay. That's why, that's my thing is that cyber citizens don't get together enough to come up with good like metal systems or like a learning process that's what we need that's what it really needs is packaging i feel like it's almost there yeah it's getting there but we have somebody special today is that someone that went into this deeper than me uh for some reason why you would do

this i don't know why you would do this to yourself except to make a truly wonderful film we have the director of a new film starring nick offerman as a sovereign citizen which is just like if you could have you couldn't have chosen a better one like that's the number one if it's not him it's got to be michael shannon but because it's him that's fucking amazing we have here the director of this film sovereign christian swagel thank you so much for being here thanks for having me yeah now you wrote this yes and this is your first writing directing it is yeah it's my first film as a writer director congratulations congratulations is that miserable it was i mean it was a it was a it was a life long, you know, it's a dream come true to get to do a movie. It was miserable making the

film. I think anything, anybody who makes a film knows how hard it is to make a film. But it was the, you know, the best kind of miserable, basically. But obviously, it can't be more miserable than the inner world of a sovereign citizen. No, I think you're probably right about that. And the one thing that you portrayed in this film, which is a very both empathetic, look at this, whole topic, but it's also, it's a deep dive into the real story. of a real sovereign citizen that with his son murdered two police officers that were then killed by the police themselves. And that was Jerry Kane and Joe Kane. Yeah.

Correct. Yeah, that's correct. Now, how did you, I guess we could start with that. Yeah, start with it. How'd you get involved in all this Mishigash? Yeah, I mean, I had, I mean, I think like you guys, I've been interested in, you know, I'm interested in fringe ideologies, conspiracy theories and, you know, UFOs or. cults, you know, how people get involved in those things. I've always been interested in that.

But also I had someone close to me in my personal life who became involved in kind of a sovereign citizen ideology adjacent, sort of anti-government conspiracy theories. And that was part of a mental health issue. And in really wanting to understand that, I started researching the sovereign citizen movement and came across this crime. And, and I just felt like because of my personal experience and my interest in, in the subject matter, and also I felt like the crime speaks to a lot of themes that I think are relevant today. It just felt like a great story to dig into. I felt like the father-son relationship at the center of it was really compelling. And I just love the idea of telling a coming-of-age story of this young kid growing up in an environment like that. Well, one of the worst parts about it the movie is that you're watching it.

And the whole time, I'm like, wow, he really got to spend a lot of time with it. his son. That must be kind of nice for him. Like we say here on last podcast on the left all the time that movements like the Q&on movement and stuff like this is that quite more more often than not it's about the friends you make along the way. Yeah. So it's about community. It's about in a weird perverse way. Yeah. Yeah. It's about community and this movie really reflects that. Is there like something to learn about a father so desperate almost to spend time with his son? Yeah. I mean I think I think that that even though the ideas that these guys are clinging on to, I think, are sort of just factually, you can, you can say that they're pretty off. You know, the answers that they're arriving at are wrong. But I think in a lot of cases, the injury that they've sustained or the reason that they're looking for this kind of an answer is really valid.

You know, a lot of the sovereign citizens that I've spoken to and known, you know, they lost their home after 2008. they had insurance that didn't pay out that they were actually owed or they filed their taxes wrong and then they were hit with a wave of penalties that just had them underwater. And I think in the absence of like a legitimate, compassionate response to that, there's this vacuum where a guy like Jerry Kane can step into that and say, hey, I've got the answer. Like, you don't have to pay that. You know, you don't have to, you know, and that's an empowering message, I think, for a lot of people.

Especially people without money are extremely desperate. Yeah. So I think to kind of laugh at them is like, you know, and then I do think mental health is a real component to some of it. You know, I think like that guy, the QAnon shaman who was like storming the Capitol or whatever. I mean, I think that guy had legitimate. But now he's so surprised that Trump is turning on them. He's so shocked and so upset. But I feel like that's a, that's a trigger. That's like a that's almost a function of the SovSit movement because it's like that to when they then, present this series of arcane sort of like fake version of reality to reality. Reality oftentimes smashes their windows and drags them from a non-moving car and hogties them and throws them in the back and then they're getting de-loused and that's only like literally increasing their agitation with the system. Well, that's the thing is you can't, especially if there is a mental health component, If somebody's in that state and you apply more pressure, that doesn't break them out of it.

It's not like you can shake them out of it. That just sends them further down into a spiral of some kind. And so I think, you know, we also with the film wanted to just look at the reality of that. And so we really, even though it's a political subject matter and it's kind of a wacky subject in a lot of ways, like we really wanted to try to look at like, okay, what's the reality of the people that are drawn to stuff like this? and what does this feel like from their perspective? Well, as a viewer, you kind of put me there because in the very beginning, I'm like, this motherfucker's making some points. You know, I'm like, I'm like, I'm about to go to one of these meetings and to follow it again.

You know, and then, you know, as time goes on, you're like, obviously this is wrong. You know, like, you're like, you're waiting for it to break. But like, you know, how much of these guys that you've met and you've worked with or whatever and you've studied, is it always mental health or is it desperate? like like kind of like I you know I I have to say most that are like the guru types that are really online and really bought in I do think in most cases I've seen there's some sort of a mental health issue I don't know if that tips into like mental illness it could be maybe just a personality you know eccentricity yeah but but I think that I think that some of the guys that

I've met like it's almost this is a weird analogy but but almost like larping in a way like no no we talk about it all the time qanon's a larp that went yeah from the internet that jumped to real life they're like guys that like just get really into stuff and it's almost like when you're at a magic the gathering like you know and people are talking about that or any other kind of subculture that somebody gets into if you start to get a reputation for being the expert at that and you kind of have street cred for that there's a community and their self-esteem that comes with that and so i think that's a big component of it as well But I think what you were saying earlier, like the reach for community and feeling empowered and important and like you have some kind of agency is, I think, the driver of a lot of this stuff.

And then I do think mental health is also part of it. Because they are giant, they seem to be specifically pitted against giant unmovable structures within American society. It's like the IRS, the bank system, the literal constitution of the. United States of America and they're like it's such a big epic battle it's a big epic thing that I feel like we you know we know when a housewife discovers methamphetamine at like 45 like it feels like that it's like adding this amazing to like Tolkienesque like fantasy structure to your life oh yeah absolutely I mean I think I think part of it also is like you see in some of these bigger confrontations that make the news, like the canes or any of the videos you see where

one of them finally goes to the federal building and takes a stand. You know, it never ends well for them. They always, but what I saw in meeting a lot of them is they're kind of working up the courage to test that theory in real life a lot of times. You know, it's a long path to kind of, that's why Jerry's character in the film and in the research of him, like cowardice was such a big part of what he was trying to overcome. You know, he talked about his father being a coward, and he talked about, you know, and so I think the ones that do kind of step forward with this and try to test those theories, they see themselves as like being brave in that sense.

Did you like, all right, so I'll know that when we've ever covered this subject, what I also love about sobsets is that it's a kaleidoscope of different approaches to the topic. And one thing I do know is that sovereign citizens a slur in their words. world, right? They don't like it. It's become that, yeah. Yes, they don't like the term sovereign citizen. But is that what they call themselves? No, now it's either your, it's a private, there's private nation, right? The member of a private nation? There's like dozens of different terms that I've heard, but yeah. Have you yet received your, um, well, actually pick apart like approach to, from a sovereign citizen? Has someone watched the movie and be like,

let me tell you where you got, what you got wrong, what you did wrong. Yeah, it was a little bit sort of freaky, but we had a screening of the film, and after this screening had a Q&A, and then I went home, and a friend of mine sent me a link and was like, oh, there's a picture of you from the Q&A. And there was a sovereign citizen who was first row at the Q&A and said, I went and saw this film, and actually, you know, these guys were wrong because they didn't follow the right program, and here's why my program's different. And I appreciate that. I mean, you know, it was civil. But he, you know, his take on it was Jerry's, Jerry did not know the correct language. And that's why he was not successful. But there is a program out there that does have the correct language.

Are you worried that some people are going to see this movie and think Jerry's a hero? Yeah. Yeah, I, I, but, you know, I think, I think the thing is that it happened, you know, it's a, I do, I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about how do the families, how are they going to react to this, you know, how are people going to interpret this? But that's the complexity of the real world we're living in. It's an event that happened, you know, unfortunately, the bad things that happened, we can't go back and change those. But I think taking an honest look at it, even if it's difficult or complicated to look at, is a step towards trying to understand it and maybe prevent it in the future. It seems like it's incredibly accurate.

We tried to be as sort of honest about it in all aspects of the approach. We try to be sort of as objective about it as possible without editorializing too much. And how are you able to keep the Sun's story accurate? That storyline, you know, there's not a ton of information. online about him because he was a minor but we do know with he was the one that technically killed the police officers yes yes he was and um you know there's there was a lot of information there was a lot of information online about jerry kane and about this crime specifically so there were police records there were the videos online there were actually some uh case studies uh academic papers that were

written about this crime as a case study and extremism really um and but the the the details of their their relationship really the father's son that you know that's artistic license it was just trying to put that that was part of it that i felt like with my experience in my personal life knowing someone who had gone through this i felt like i had a unique perspective to maybe write that son character um in a way that that would feel honest i think what you did very well in the film is that idea kind of what you were saying like eddie was joking right before we were recording is that he was watching it with it oh i'm sorry edie what is with this cup this huge this is the worst one

Cuff choice for an interview I think I've ever seen. This is a bad choice. Two foot pink straw. I'm doing my best. This is a very serious subject. I needed to be caffeinated. All right? That's how it is.

I brought a long straw because it's fun. It's fun for me. All right. It's better than an AK-47. Yes. Now, let's continue. And he was sick with his wife. They're watching the movie and his wife.

Lovely woman. Absolutely one of the most empathetic kind. women you've ever met in your life and she was like he's got a lot of points immediately up top right positive listen I have you know let me explain quantum grammar but there is like what you did

great in the movie is that where it starts with the like that's an aggrieved man we can now see and like yeah of course we we see all the things laid out up top his wife was dead in childbirth he is upset about the world in general. He's been screwed by

the IRS. Who hasn't? Right? Who hasn't been fucked with by insurance companies? Because the whole time I'm like fuck the IRS. Fuck the banks. You know? I would do. But you do a really good idea of that because that's what it is. The subset specific

I guess goal is to work yourself up to trying the stuff in an applicable environment. Yes. Right? Like that's kind of the whole thing. There's no point to being a sovereign citizen unless you have an engagement with a police officer

correct? Right? Because there's really nothing else you get out of it. It's just about how to get out of being arrested ostensibly for the most part. But can't they see that like what they do great, when you did good, great for the movie was through the son's character of him starting to realize in those moments

of like, oh dad might be really incorrect about this. Now have you heard from people? Now if you talked about that have hit that wall, and have walked away or have you talked to people like what is it you think

that makes them hit that wall and sometimes doubled down? In my experience and in the people that I've met and known that confrontation almost always leads to doubling down. I've never seen somebody

get hit you know like the police break the windshield and then somebody walk away afterwards and say well I tested that it didn't work out. You know or shoot they just took my house that didn't work out, you know?

No, in most cases, I've seen that lead to a doubling down. It's kind of like what happens to these doomsday cults, you know, when the clock strikes and the world doesn't evaporate or whatever. They don't just pack it up and go back to their lives. They usually have a reason why they, it's still coming and it's still right. You know, I think once you're locked into that thought system, it's very hard to escape. just it's so fascinating to me

because there's like like with other cults like I think even calling it a cult is hard right because it's not it's like a it's like a series of almost like get rich quick almost schemes that you apply to but it's for legal leaders pop up

like Jerry yeah but why does do you feel like maybe it's because like in Scientology in the end you will never know you'll die right like when you're dead We don't know what's going to happen. We know for a fact, you probably don't know jack shit. You don't know if you're going to go to Zinu and if it's all going to hold out.

So you don't have to experience the payoff, right, ever. So you're always just kind of training for the next life where that's one thing about sovereign citizens. They want you to experience that thrill right now. And what I find interesting about sovereign citizens is that they're always like, how do they get everything? Like in the first place. If they don't believe in money and they don't believe in all this stuff, like, how do they get a car? How do they get a house? You know, where do they get their, you know, like, it's very bizarre to me.

They naturally existed there before. You don't understand, Eddie. They naturally existed there before as cars. As we all know, cars are naturally harvested. They're grown under the ground. They're certainly not made by a bunch of different companies and systems. Yeah, I mean, I think it's that evolution from, you know, in the case of Jerry Kane, He was a roofer.

He was a truck driver. He was a guy that was, you know, in trouble in a lot of different ways. And I think- But he actually had skills that applied to real life that actually could be very lucrative and, like, helpful. Yeah. And I think that a precursor to a lot of this is being rejected from a lot of those things, you know, being fired. Or maybe you're not very good at your job. Or maybe you have some sort of defiance disorder and you can't really have a boss, you know.

I think there's a, the drive that I've seen from a lot of people. people that are in this movement specifically though is this feeling of like powerlessness you know feeling like if you had a boss hating having a boss you know um like like you i'm my own boss i hate me i fucking hate me i have multiple friends who are very smart very talented and are doing fucking nothing with their lives because they have this defiance disorder i never heard of it never heard it called that before but i'm like my mind i'm just like thought of three guys. I'm like, these guys, they need to get this under control. What is that? I mean, I, I'm not a psychiatrist to know, but I, but I think that, um, I think that's like,

yeah, people chafe under how, nobody likes having a boss. I think some people just cannot tolerate it at all. If somebody tells them to do one thing, they flip out. And I think it's, it's, you know, that's a complex psychological, you know, stew or makeup that, that leads to something like that. I think a lot of this comes from that place in some ways. Did Jerry Kane hold those meetings? Like, was he the leader of those meetings? Was that a real thing that happened? Yeah, yeah.

So a lot of those speeches were really verbatim from his seminars. He had these seminars and you can see, you can see him online. And so it was great because a lot of the language that's used in the film is directly stuff from his speeches. Dude, when he said, I'm traveling, my wife and I cheered, man. And it was like, we're like, he said it. He said it. And like all day since we've watched the movie, my wife and I were walking around going,

it's a straw man. How did you find the BG for that? That's great. That was wonderful. The lady in that scene with Nick Offerman was like, we talked about it. We've talked to her like five times. I know that lady. Yeah.

They were all Arkansas locals. I mean, we shot in Northwest Arkansas. And the stories that you hear, like when, Nick or Jerry in that first meeting is going around and asking people, you know, what their background is. Those are real stories from those people. Oh. There were, you know, yeah, they were that, the woman he's speaking to, she was denied her insurance and the other guy is, his apartment burnt down and, you know, he was kicked out by his landlord. All these stories that, that, you know, draw people to those movements. They, those were actual real stories and people that, I wouldn't

say they're sovereign citizens. None of them were. But I think they could certain. agree with some of the anti-establishment views that he was, you know, preaching. I'm looking at this picture of Jerry Kane. I did not know that he was the big bopper. Wow. Eddie, you look just like him. Yeah, I do. I do.

Nick did a great job, but you could have talked to me. Yeah, wow. Can I actually, when you're working with Nick Offerman, obviously Nick Offerman played probably the most famous libertarian character of all time in Barks and Rec, Ron Swine. When they were when you're doing that with him, did you ever have any conversations about like this is a Ron Swanson like because he definitely like there were shades like I saw shades of it in it. But you could kind of tell like he must have made a decision being like this is a deadlier version of Ron Swanson. Like this is like something else.

Like did you have conversations about like that when it came to performance? You know, it's funny. Like I I think I had the benefit. I love Parks and Rec now. But I wasn't introduced to Nick through Parks and Rec primarily. I had actually seen him first in this series devs that Alex Garland did. And so, and I mean, I had been aware of him as an actor long before that. But when I really became like a big fan of him as a dramatic actor, it was in that series.

And so I think because of that and because we had the real story and videos of the real character, I kind of the Ron Swanson of it was was definitely like a meta layer but it was a layer that I kind of only became aware of after we finished the film which sounds completely naive but no I mean more about like if you had to watch Nick Offerman because I also wonder if he brought that up at all yeah I mean I think he must have been aware certainly on some level of it but I think I think in his performance the I mean Nick is an incredible artist he's like yeah I mean The best, and he's the best person to work with. I hit the lottery on my cast in this film. You have, this is a deep-ass cast. It's a great cast. For first movie. Dennis Quaid.

Yeah, he's great. Crushed this movie. Yeah. And Jacob Trembly, he's like the go-to sad kid. He's very good at being sad. No, I mean, for a first-time filmmaker to get the trust of actors like that to do an independent film is unheard of. So it was, it's fantastic. But, yeah, I mean.

I mean, Nick's, it's funny because in Nick's performance, he's so warm, naturally, and he's so funny that when you put him in front of a crowd of people, like in those seminars, in between takes, you know, he was doing his comedy. I mean, everybody was screaming, laughing. And so we'd go into these takes and you'd have to be like, remind him, like, Nick, you look down on these people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're taking from them. Yeah. Stop being so likable between takes, please. Yeah, take the warmth down, please. Yeah, Jerry Kane probably would have done much.

better if he was you. True. Do you wonder if that actually can even, like, we better not educate him too much. Because I think one of the big issues truly with the sovereign citizen movement is because they genuinely don't have a charismatic center. Like every single one of these guys that seem to sort of step up to be the new center, either flames out, gets themselves murdered, or they're just, they don't got that X factor. I mean, I think because they live in the world of this legalese jargon, and there's so many other guys that are out there gunning for them with jargon, that the conversation just becomes really boring at a certain point for most people.

That's what happened to me. You know, if you're arguing about an affidavit of truth versus a, you know, a negative a vermin versus a, you know, people tune out at a certain point if you're not completely dialed into that. Yeah I'm like me I'm dialed all the way in Yeah you sent me like this three hour speech from this guy in Hawaii Oh it's the quantum that was the quantum grammar

stuff yeah because quantum grammar is my favorite stuff I love the you're not You're not your corporate entity I've nothing like the concept of Because they put your name in all capital letters on your birth certificate means that you're not able

to be governed Is amazing That's what a great idea God. Who are you? Are we in front of the legal Christian swing? Like, is it? Or is this the soul?

I know. It's kind of heartbreaking when you see those interactions with police especially. And they're finally like, yeah, who are we dealing with? Is this the straw man right now or what? And it's just like, well, it seems like the straw man's in here too. Also, what you did, I thought was really cool is that sometimes in the dialogue, You'll say a thing that was like a blanket, like one thing that struck out to me was was stuck out to me was Nick Offerman saying, all you have to do is show up to the sun. And it's like, that's all you got to be, your superstar.

Yeah. If you show up. And that to me is the real hook. Yeah. That's like a whole thing. That's kind of what the magna thing's doing too, just being like, you mean like, you're one of the lucky few who get it. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that was, that's the appeal of these of these movements.

I think, you know, the scene with Martha Plimpton where he's sort of helping her overcome her fear or, you know, that, that it's, he, I do think what these guys have is that courage thing. It's an empowering thing to people of like, you're not just, you know, a normal person who can't pay their bills. You're a special sovereign ruler. You know, I mean, it's, it's like a very attractive message to hear and it's really, it's an empowering message. And it seems to get them late. Yeah. Sovereign citizens. always kind of have like a weird sovereign citizen girlfriend. They always got like a weird girlfriend or a boyfriend or they got a guy on the phone and they're calling him and stuff. It's actually kind of nice. It always and then you did a great job as like because that was the moment really in the movie

where I was like oh he's a scumbag. You know like that was the exact moment or I was like oh this guy had redeemable qualities or like he might believe what he's talking about but when they go to the casino I mean it's all out the window at this point. It's like oh he's the manipulative scumbag who's just stealing.

You know, and it was that really, as someone who, like, my mom could have easily become a sovereign citizen, she had a gambling addiction. She was very desperate, always needed money, making the wrong turns, getting into, like, gambling anonymous meetings where she would meet all these unsavory characters and I had to be like, that person's not making any fucking sense. You know, and so it's just like, I kept seeing, like, that Martha Plimpton character, I kept seeing my mother in that. And it was really hard for me, like, at times because I see her, like, empty your bank account and like, all right, where's she getting the rest of that money? It's probably some fucking son or some other, like, someone who's, like, funding all this shit. That's a lady who's abandoned her family to come join him. Yeah, yeah. And I think these, these, you know, charismatic leader types, they, you know, they justify all of that because it's for the mission, you know, it's, he's got to keep spreading the word.

He's got to keep doing her thing. You know, nothing's more important than that. that so if somebody like a leslie ann you know needs to be sacrificed to that that's that's not a problem either see but if they don't believe in money how do they justify taking it from people that's a that's a level yeah it's a whole thing because then we kept saying like all right so you don't believe in roads you don't believe in the concept of names like how are we going to have a remotely sane conversation yeah Yeah, I don't. I mean, it's, it's kind of like when you see these, you know, religious offshoots that use different religious texts as sort of the basis of their movements. I think it's like sovereign citizens have done that with the U.S. Constitution or our set of laws. And each of these guys have their own interpretation of this stuff. I mean, that was one of the things that was fascinating to me is like, you would said earlier like this kaleidoscope way that people get into the movement. It wasn't sort of like politically dogmatic from.

from what I found. It was like you'd have these earth mother types that became sovereign citizens or you'd have, you know, these libertarian types. I mean, it was sort of a, you know, there's Moorish sovereign citizens. Those, those guys actually make me the saddest. Yeah. The Moorish sovereign citizens where it's just like, it's just even worse. It's like more of a way for black people to be on a collision course with the police for no

fucking reason. Like it's a, it's so devastating. Well, I think, I don't know if Wesley Snipes was involved in. you know, even his tax stuff was kind of sovereign citizen adjacent. I think his tax problems and it's, it feels like a lot of people from different walks of life definitely find their way to this strangely. So what do you, so have, now that you're this deeply ensconced, what are you teaching? What is your sovereign citizen flavor?

Oh, man. Yeah. I mean the. Can you, you ready to take on new patients? Yeah. Can you call them patience? I think I think I'll have to yeah it's the like all the different lingo and all the different legalese is is pretty dizzying yes how's your algorithm how's your YouTube algorithm I think we have the same YouTube algorithm at this probably yeah I just watch hours of them rambling dude oh man yeah all day long why do you like it so much you know what it is is that I wish I had the courage to be in that level of denial I wish that I had the courage to just like, fuck what reality's telling me,

fuck with my family's telling me, I am right. I'm really good at ignoring mail. I like, you know, so I take that part of it seriously. How do you feel about the ironic embracement of the Martin Heemeyer and the killdozer storyline? Like now I feel like one thing that we're kind of at crossroads. Do you know the story? I'm not aware.

The killdozer? I've been in like a cave for the past months finishing the film. Thankfully, this is an old story. Martin Heemeyer was in a land dispute with the state. Oh, no, I am aware of this. You know the story. So he built, he retrofitted an old piece of construction equipment into this gigantic indestructible machine called he called the killdozer.

He didn't kill anybody. He did $7 million in private property damage and then he committed suicide. But a lot of us, including me, have been sort of ironically celebrating Marvin Hemeyer and celebrating his tapes where he said, quote, sometimes the world drives reasonable men to do unreasonable things, right? Like, which is now, but on one hand, I like this idea of creating some form of civil disobedience that we can get behind because obviously it feels like our country is heading towards some form of crossroads. And I think that at some point, we're going to be doing. some giant inaction massive group strike i don't know when we're going to do that it seems like we have a sovereign president right now it does but like do you think shit like this is a slippery slope to sovereign citizen like worship like this idea of like i just like the killed those are

just a great idea i i do remember this yeah i i mean it's all this it's all this it's all the same thing in a way you know it's it's this people i you know even though i think people think like sovereign citizen it's like a political slant to it but but it's really it's about people versus systems you know it's people versus the man in a lot of ways and and yeah i mean these guys these guys pop up and i don't know i i think i think it's it's something that needs to be addressed you know i think i think there's inequality and inequity and and nobody likes banks nobody likes their health insurance nobody likes you know i i live in altadena our neighborhood was just burned you know and now all the like predators are coming and come and poach all the land and like they

said it wasn't going to happen yeah and it happens of course and then if you rage against that then you're some kind of you know lunatic or something i mean i'm seeing our whole neighborhood just get completely gobbled up by these private funds and you know they haven't approved any permits apparently and yeah you know and then my neighbors are out living in some of them in hotels still like people in their 70s and 80s that have like second third generation Oh, yeah. People had to give up their animals, their dogs. Yeah. I had to go live somewhere where they wouldn't take them.

And then you got fucking Stephen Miller coming out and saying that if we had a decent mayor, it'd all be rebuilt by now. It's like, oh, decades of construction should be rebuilt in a matter of months? Yeah. You know, it's like, so it's crazy. You, we, sounds like we're driving people crazy. Yeah. And I think like you, I look at, you know, if somebody came along and said, like, hey, you can fight these developers that are coming in here and you don't have to pay this thing, you know. I guess it's like yeah

fuck these guys like we could we could push back against this next move you got me about MLMs are you what do you after this

it's like do you leave all this behind like when you're when you're doing like at the end of this you definitely got some shit off your chest

yeah like but what do you do like like what's next we feel like this is going to follow you these sovereign people are going to follow you

to your next project I don't know I don't know I mean, I definitely feel like, you know, this was an independent film, and I feel like, I feel like it's such an interesting time to make films in this country right now. There's so much, yeah, like, there's so much to talk about. If you're a filmmaker, there's no shortage of material to, like, dig into. And I think there's, I think if people can learn about small films like this, like, I think there's an audience for people that want to see films that reflects kind of the craziness of the time we're living in, you know? think there's no shortage of stuff to

sort of move on to from here. No, and I'm glad that it's not mean like you didn't have to put a talk, a dog in it. You know what I mean? You didn't have to do any of that stuff. You could have, and we were just like, ah, he's crazy, he's imagined. That's what he likes. That's what he likes. No, there wasn't a dog, and it lived.

And it lived. I'll let you know just say that before you're all upset. Yeah, yeah. The dog lives. None of the people do. But you know, if you knew the story ahead of time, you'd know that for a fact. what's that is great like he's he's great actually yeah i mean he's he's very like uh he's he's been doing this for so long i think that like he's so dot like there wasn't a lot of back

and forth about what he was going to do he just he knew what he wanted to do he came in and did it but then there were a couple times where like we had to shoot that you know a couple big scenes in no time and anytime there was pressure where i'd say dennis we have to do this we have like one take he was like all right let's go like he like lit up yeah so i you know it was he was he was fantastic to work with as a you know as a director uh when you're like new to directing yeah does it help or hurt to have those types of highly experienced people there i think i've heard stories of it not being great i was on a set once where a man by the name of john tuturo didn't believe that what the director was doing

which makes sense right yeah and he just took he just took over the process And I'm like, John Duturo could tell me to do whatever he wants. I'm going to do what he says. You know, like, they're all like, you lost total control of the set. And it's just like, well, you know, it's John Dutro. What are he going to tell? He has directed some films at least. And he was very, he was right.

Yeah. He actually was correct. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's the scary part. Like, that was my biggest, that was my biggest fear going into this is like I have this incredible cast. Is anybody going to listen to anything I have to say? But they, they were the best. I mean, they really, I think,

embraced the first time director thing and they were like took me under their wing and they were like we're going to do this together this is fantastic yeah and i think it started with nick i mean nick offerman set the tone he was number one on the call sheet and he him and jacob then i mean they really set the tone for we're all doing this collaboratively yeah and jacob's been in some huge movies obviously but if you don't remember he was the little kid from room yeah so he understands this pacing of a small, scary drama, you know, and like, he really did a great job. Yeah. I loved everything.

I loved all of his choices. I felt like I knew him. Like, I grew up with those type of kids. Just poor, trying to be good. And it's like, and there's no chance because of the parents they have. Yeah. No, Jacob was incredible. Can you immediately do the comedy version with Nick Offerman and just call it Sovzitz?

And it's all about him teaching a pro quo. He's going to help his son lose his virginity. I guess to a senator to Nancy Pelosi There is a comedy version of this type of thing Oh no I've been rolling around in my head Because again since the quantum grammar stuff I can't let that go Like the idea of like just the idea

I wish don't we all wish that there was some magical formula That would release us from all obligations And and all accountability Yeah yeah I mean if it were that easy yeah Yeah I mean all you really got to do is be a music producer or be an interconnected billionaire with either working for the Mossad

or working for the CIA all at once you know what I mean by the name of Jeffrey Epstein that's all you really got to do to get away with it all you know and that's the key that's the real key make yourself really important to P-Ditty can you really get out there

you know your movie obviously very important I think it's definitely it's definitely covering something that people don't talk about people don't like talking about we've met people like this in our lives we have like family members we don't like talking about you know that's what this movie like reminds me of and it didn't get a wide release i really wish it would have gotten a wider release because i think it really would have done well seems to be doing well on apple it was in top 10 when i i purchased it yesterday yeah and it seems like it's doing well in apple so please go watch this film go rent this movie rent the movie i spent i rented that day and i movie. We need to support independent film because... I took the extra five and I bought it.

I'm better than you. Whoa! You know what the funny part is. I'm going to expense it and he's going to end up paying for it anyway. Fuck you! I fuck! Money's not real! Money's not real! But no, I agree. We're here. We're all

about independent movies. Because this is the way forward. They all can't be Superman 9. Especially now in our industry. like crippling around us it's it is the time for independent film and it really needs to be nurtured now more than ever and i think your film is beautifully shot i think you really did a great because you've done cinematography work before right i have yeah i had a i mean i worked with a brilliant cinematographer on this but but we had a um yeah it it's everybody every department i

think was just you know really bought into trying to make something special and like boutique and even though it was small, just really trying to make something great. And also just how was it filming in the middle of nowhere? I have to say Arkansas was awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everybody was so friendly. We had the support of everyone.

You know, they're not jaded to a movie coming to town. They're not like, you know, wanting to know. They were just very excited that a movie was there. So all of our locations were, you know, we could, we pretty much could do what we wanted there. It was a great place. But the weather was awful to shoot because it swung. so wildly and like the big climax at the end of the film we were supposed to have a couple days for that and we had to shoot it in one day because we had lightning strikes that shut us down

that's impossible that's such a complex i know the whole movie is like easy and talking but also for an independent production like as an independent production great action scenes thank you that the ending was like that's fucked up yeah and from watching the footage afterwards incredibly accurate Yeah, yeah, we tried to stay. I mean, that's just, our crew was just grinding. I mean, we just, everybody was carrying cables and flying and shaking the van and throwing rubber glass. And it was nuts. Yeah, it was like film school. So make sure you go reach out to your independent filmmakers, all right, because they need you. They're scared. All right. And they need help. They need support. They need their own sovereign citizen movement. Can I ask, how much was the budget for this? Our budget was around $4 million. Great. And we had below the line, I'm not sure what it was. It was much less than that. that yeah um yeah and i knew it was an independent film obviously because it has that energy

but then i got confused this is just like a hollywood question i see universal right up top so are they they're just the distributor basically yeah so what happens is we we did the movie independently we have a u.s distribution company called briarcliffe uh that handled our theatrical distribution which was a couple you know i think we were in 50 screens or something and then uh They partnered with Universal for Home Video. So they basically released the movie, you know, I'm not sure exactly how that partnership works, but it was, my understanding is it was a home video partnership. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Yeah, because I was surprised. I'm like, wait a second, Universal. It's pretty cool to see the logo in front for me as a filmmaker. I bet. Yeah, I'm a Universal filmmaker. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You and Jurassic World right now. Yeah.

Well, seriously, go check out Sovereign anywhere you can rent any film. Like, I got it on Amazon myself. Yeah, I got on Apple. Big Bezos head. Big Bezos head, super happy for those ladies. I'm a Wozniak boy. It's like, but yeah, please rent the film. Pay full money for it, all right?

Because, yes, to most sovereign citizens, money isn't real. But to these filmmakers, money is. All right? So make sure you do that. All right? Wow, thank you so much for being here with us, man. Thank you, guys. This is awesome.

Christian, you put so much heart into this film and so much personal experience. It deserves all the love it can get. And I really hope it does well come award season and people still give it the love it deserves because it was fucking awesome. Thank you so much really. It's an honor to be here.

Thank you. Of course, dude. So go check out suffering. And don't act like the first half as a, just get past it. Okay? Because he's not right. He's not correct.

But write down the ideas you like. Some of the ideas are good beginner ideas. Thank you.