LATE BLOOMERS - ANTI-SOCIAL BUTTERFLY: The neurodivergent urge to never leave the house

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Welcome to LATE BLOOMERS, where Rox and Rich get real about being anti-social butterflies and navigating social life with neurodivergent brains. Rox shares ADHD chaos like double-booking disasters, missing weddings, and the social anxiety that often keeps them home. Rich admits to dodging small talk, pulling Irish Goodbyes, and choosing the dog over most invites unless it’s Green Day. Together they explore the exhaustion of parties that feel like performances, the guilt of cancelling plans, and why home feels like the safest place. If you have ever cheered when plans fell through or left a gathering completely drained, this episode is for you. 20% off Loop Earplugs: https://www.loopearplugs.com/pages/lp-adhdlove

Are you an anti-social butterfly, a.k.a. do you find it hard to just go out and do normal things and have friendships and socialise? Maybe your brain is getting in the way. We're going to talk about being ADHD and autistic-ish and see if that might have something to do with the fact that we don't like leaving the house. Welcome to late bloomers, where we are getting our lives together. Eventually and never leaving the house, apparently. I'm fine with that, though. I'm so fine with that. So how are we going to do? this. I don't think this is the episode of like neurodivergence is getting in the way of you leaving the house. Here's how to fix it. It's probably we're more the people that are like just stay home. Yeah. Big time. I'm happy. Yeah. So if you're looking to be encouraged for reasons to go out and socialize this. This isn't for you. This might not be for you. So what we're going to do is talk about my perspective of how ADHD just absolutely messes with my ability to be normal and have friends and go out.

And we'll talk about my quirkiness. Your quirkiness. That's what I'm going to call it in this episode. So I'll start. Go on then. Obviously. Obviously. Straight in there, impulsive. ADHD, scheduling chaos. I don't leave the house because I can't arrange times and plans and stick to them.

No, you can't. you are i don't know right i don't know how you coped before me in in this specific topic like because i look at your diary and hear you say yeah i'll be there and whatever and i'm just like there's no way one she's going to remember it too she's going to double book like i don't know how you coped it's really bold of you to assume that i was coping yeah okay i was double booking not showing up letting people down than drinking to numb the shame of doing like chaos it was absolutely chaos but nowadays you know I do have you and I have a manager and it's a little bit better but I still get it wrong I think it's such a fun story to share you know my ADHD women's

group vaguely so I'm part of a WhatsApp group which is ADHD women in music right And we like chat and we share ADHD stuff and it's like really fun. Just memes and stuff? No, just like vibes, podcasts, chatting advice. Anyway, we tried to meet up as a group three times. Someone would take the lead, do a little calendar thing, we'd get a date, we'd all agree to it. And then on the day, people would just start canceling.

Yeah. Because they've double booked or they're tired or they just don't fancy it. And it happened three times. And I just realized ADHD is, are incapable of making and booking plans. So I try not to just make plans anymore. I would imagine as well, like when the first person canceled, there was like a flood of cancellations. Just wait for that green light.

When someone cancels, it gives you the permission to guilt-free cancel. My favorite thing is when somebody cancels. Yeah. and I will say that now historically I'd have been like oh no problem like don't worry I would have like had the moral upper high ground now I'm like thank you so much I very much

I get that though especially with like if it's a social situation I don't want to be at or whatever like someone else cancelling is golden because it's like you don't you get to not go and not have any of the guilt it's beautiful

yeah it's quite sad that isn't it what about you what's something that stops leaving the house? Well, I, mine's really sad. I just don't like going out. Like, I don't, I'd rather be at home. So it's not, it's not something that I struggle with. Like, it's not something that I'm like,

I wish I could go out more and be more comfortable socialising. No, I'd rather be in the garden by myself, with the dog, watching a bit of telly, maybe playing cards, so like virtually speaking to someone. I just don't like peopling or human, Humanity. You are the true definition of an antisocial butterfly. You used to be really social.

When I was drunk, like, who's not? That's true. I reckon so many neurodivergent people have used alcohol to mask social anxiety or just not really liking people. So they just get drunk and then everything's fun. Yeah. But when you take away the alcohol, you are kind of faced with all the reasons. But if you could dig into it,

you're like, you don't really like going out. You prefer staying in. Like, why is that? Because there's a sort of narrative in life that we're meant to go out and have fun and set great, no, I can be really firm with this. So unless it's something that I want to do or that's going to add value or I'm going to enjoy, like going to go and watching a music act that I really like, like Greengay or someone like that, like I would be like, yeah, I'm there.

or going to watch the newest Marvel movie. I'm like, yeah, I want to watch that movie. But the thing is, though, I could do that. Nobody else needs to be there that I know because I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in what I'm going to do. So, like, just the thought of hanging with someone is like, what? Why?

What's the point? Right, we need to get clear on our definition. Does being social mean you go out and do. things or does it mean you go out and do things with people because you go to the cinema alone a lot yeah but i don't think you can call that social i don't speak to anyone so social it has to be with people i think so yeah so when we're saying like social life if you're going out alone to watch a gig or to that that doesn't count no well maybe a gig because maybe you'll speak to people but no i like that's my thing like if it's something that i want to do then cool if it's

not, then I don't, I don't want to do it. And just go and just spend time with people, like, it's pointless, I think. That's simple. It's ending there. Many time, people, it's pointless. Don't leave the house. Something that stops me from leaving the house is when I do leave the house, I have a tendency to embarrass myself. What? So like I'll overshare. Yeah. I'll say something stupid. Embarrass myself. And then I think about it for so long after, not just hours. It can be years. I still worry about things I've done in 2021 socially. So it just makes it easier to not go out. Like don't put me in a situation when I need to talk. Because the sort of ADHD takes over and you're like, I need to feel this place. I need to say something. I think, I've got a good idea. My brain's had a thought. I share it.

Oh, my God. Verbal diarrhea. What have I done? Yeah, but is that true? Like, I know that it's true in that you'll say the wrong thing and embarrass yourself and overthink it and worry about it. You know, it's true. No, so what I mean is I know that you do that and I know that's a thing.

But is it true that you would, even before doing that, you would think, oh my God, I'm going out, I'm probably going to embarrass myself. Like, is that something that you actively think about, like, before you've been? even embarrass yourself? I think it gets to a point when you've done it so many times that, yeah, it is part of the thought process. Like, do I want to have a conversation

with someone I don't know or a group of people? Am I going to say the wrong thing? Probably. Oh, right, as you weren't. You, like, meant to encourage me. When have you ever known me say the wrong thing? You have put me on the spot.

I don't know. If I thought about it, I would be able to answer. I remember one time when this was like one of the worst. Like it happens all the time, but this was one of the worst recently. Was when I went to do like a speech. I was invited to go and like give a music speech. Oh, I wasn't there. No.

And I was on a panel and it was about songwriting. And I was like doing quite well. and then they got a really big hit songwriter on the phone yeah come on speed up I'm on stage in front of hundreds of people like it's very professional it's like run by PRS like this music board I'd been invited by a big publisher

that wanted to work with me so I was like on best behaviour so I'd done really well done the thing we were right at the end and they got this huge songwriter who's written like mega hits on the phone yeah and basically they are asked panellists if they had any questions to people were asking stuff like what's your best songwriting advice and like how do you come up with a title and all this stuff and i went

how much money did you earn from the hits well i would want to know that though yeah but it came out i thought i was joking the room went silent he on the phone on speaker was like i don't think that's an appropriate question to ask i won't be answering I went bright red and I just was like swallow me up now and like I haven't stopped thinking about it this was years ago

so that's why I don't leave the house you do something else I need to... So my sort of linked to why I don't like the idea of just hanging with someone and why it's irrelevant so small talk

like so it's the same series of questions you ask people how are you doing how's the girl what's going on at home oh isn't it well hot at the moment yeah no shit everyone's really hot like what is the what is the point of that like i i hate it and you and you can't avoid it i don't think you can be social without a bit of small talk maybe with maybe with some people you can the thing is as well though like i'm questioning myself right so i I know that I don't like small talk

like even on the calls that we go on like there's in meetings and stuff with our manager or the people that build the app and stuff and I'm like after five seconds I'm like right let's let's get to business show we like before the whole how is your weekend blah blah blah we'll allow a few minutes and then you're just like right I'm done now it's a very strange sort of routine

that neurotypical people do I agree. It feels like so, like I actually am fully in a, like some of these we don't share, but this one I feel like we do share. Well, I've not finished yet. Yeah, go on. Because although I don't like small talk, I couldn't comfortably sit here and say, I want to talk about real stuff as well.

So I think it's more just talking that I don't, like, I market it as small talk. But if I like met someone and they were like, oh, this thing's happening. and it was really serious. I'm like, I don't care. Like, I don't mean, I don't mean like that unkind. If someone was unwell or they had health concerns, of course, I would listen and I would validate and all that sort of stuff. But, like, just telling me something, like...

So you don't like small talk or big talk? You don't like talking at all. I don't like talk, I think. You like silence. Yeah. That's where we're different. I don't like small talk. Freaks me out.

Don't know what to say. It feels pointless. Big talk. I'm like in there, like I'm rat up a drain pipe. Oh, yeah. I love it. Therapy, childhood, trauma, purpose in life, special interests. But I don't, I do like talking.

So like, to my point, if I'm going to play golf, or I'm going to watch a movie at the cinema, or I'm going to watch a music thing, and I'm with someone, I would like talking about that. I would like talking about the golf on the day, or I would like talking about the film that we watch, like that. So, like, the specific subject that's going on at that very moment. Because that's why I'm there.

But if it strays out of that, just... No. You're funny, though. You will just go silent now. Yeah, I don't. We recently... We really... I love you.

Like, I'm not laughing at you. Oh, you can laugh at me. I'm laughing at just the... The memory I'm having. We recently went to my friend's birthday party. Yeah. Sean. Yeah.

What did I do there then? No, you were. lovely, you were so lovely. And I was surprised that you said you were going to come with me because it was in Soho, it was in a really busy bar. Yeah. And I invited you and you'd normally say no. And you said, yeah, I'll come to Sean's birthday. I couldn't believe it. Well, I've never met them and I know that they're important to you. So, thank you. I've worked with them for five years. Still haven't that. They songwrite and produce everything with me. So we go to Soho. We turn up early

and that bit was really fun we were hanging with Sean and his sister we were like chatting but then my sort of memory, my visual memory of the next hour is just you sat in the corner everyone else stood up chatting

you just sat in the corner with your little Diet Coke that's exactly what happened and I kept checking in Bubby, you okay? I was fine though it's not like I don't sit there and sulk or mope or I'm like I'm just going to sit here

I don't know any of these people I'll never see any of them again I'm not interested in what they do for a living sorry by the fact of these are my friends so just in case any are checking out the pot no but it's nothing against them this is about me I don't care

like I wish you well but I'll never speak to you again but what if you could have made a friend I don't want a friend having friends is difficult for me Like the friends that I have to have need to do all the heavy lifting, right? So think about Matt, who I play golf with.

He has to find the course, find the date, sort it all out, book it. I turn up play golf, love it. Like, I can't handle the level of responsibility that comes with friendship. I'm certainly not looking for it in a bar in Soho. That's true. Matt was a bit of a find, wasn't he? Yeah. I feel like the fact that you were sat there in silence.

is a perfect time for me to take a little short break if you don't mind no problem i don't think we could have a better sponsor for this podcast than the amazing loop earplugs because we actually used them and wear them recently we went to a music festival because i was performing and you struggle a bit of music festivals big time all the people the noise yeah hugely struggle and it's like rock and metal music so it's loud so i had my trusted loop earplugs, the experience range, which are basically made for festivals. You used those and how did you find it?

It was dreamy. It like dumb, I could still hear, but it dumbed it down enough that I was so comfortable. I took, I thought it was fine and I took them out one point. I was like, noop, they're going back in, yeah. So that's it. You can go to a music festival with loop earplugs experience. They also have the quiet range for taking naps and studying

and they also have the engage range. if you do want to hear what people are saying in a conversation, that's not for you. No. You can actually get 20% off via our own website with Loop. The link will be in the show notes, and it will also be in the link in bio. Can't recommend them enough, and we really hope that you enjoy them. Another reason, I don't leave the house, double booking doom. Hmm. Yeah.

I mean that's that's a thing now even even though you don't even control your calendar you'll you'll book things in they won't go in there you won't tell anyone until the day and then you'll need to be in two places at once I just can't figure it out and it causes me so much stress I'll make a plan for something and I won't put it in my calendar and I'll say I remember it but then someone else put something in my calendar and then it it's a double booking and then it just causes so much anxiety and chaos in my brain. And I've got to be really honest, right? Sometimes I've double booked by mistake.

I've got a date wrong. I haven't put something in the calendar. And like that's awful. You know, you get that text on the day like, hi, are you there? Are you coming? And you're like, oh my God. Where am I supposed to be? And I used to do that all the time.

I'd miss doctor's appointment. I'd miss going out to see friends. I'd miss really important things. I've missed weddings in my past when I was younger. I'm a bit better now because if it's something like really serious, I will run it by you. But there's another thing I do that is so embarrassing to admit, but I am going to admit it.

It's when I double book something and I'm aware. Yeah. I'm thinking you saw it out later. Yeah. And I'm like, I need to tell Rich, I can't do that thing on that day because I've booked in a studio day. And for some reason, I delay it. I feel like in the short term, I'm like managing it and actually I'm just avoiding what I think is a difficult combo, even though it's not a difficult combo to say, sorry, Bobby, I've double booked. I'm actually doing this thing. And then sometimes it then causes a chaos on the day. often. So it's like so frustrating and I really am trying to work on it. I talk about this particular part of my personality in therapy, like why I struggle with calendars and just like being really up front if I've made a mistake. I think it's because I'm so ashamed. You get a sense that you've done something wrong as well so you don't want to like fess up to it

or you find it. Oh it's like a RSD thing. Oh my God if I say I can no longer do dinner or go to cinema that night, I'm going to be in trouble, which is so silly. As an adult, you can't be in trouble with another adult. Sounds logical. My body doesn't. Listen to that anymore. So I think sometimes because of the double booking doom, I do zero bookings. Because if I don't book in anything, if I've got an empty calendar, I can't mess it up. And that's quite sad because actually I do like going for coffee with friends and I do sometimes like going to gigs I am a bit more socially inclined than you

even though it would take me three business days to recover from said social activity but I end up just like procrastinating on booking plans because I don't want to mess them up and fumble the bag and that is... I'm sure people will be able to relate to that actually

what double booking do I hope so because it makes me feel a bit rubbish. Yeah. How could people resolve that? How could you resolve? You can't. I'm not going to sit here and go be more organised because that is the answer, but you can't do it.

It would be like 100% using and trusting your calendar and checking it. But I don't trust past me to have entered the calendar correctly. So I don't trust what's in there. So it's... Over to you. Social battery, it just dies. And I don't get warning for it. So if I'm, you know, I will be with a group of people,

maybe start enjoying it. So if it's close friends or family. And then after about half an hour, maybe I've got an hour in me. I just, it's like someone presses the off switch. I'm like, no, thank you. I don't want to talk anymore. I remember this was pre-ADHD,

pre-any autistic conversations with you. We didn't know anything about neurodivergent. Yeah. Other than C are being diagnosed autistic. We were at a family barbecue. Yeah. We'd just got together. And I remember being there,

I was trying to make a really good impression. They were meeting me for the first time. Yeah. So I was kind of chatting, being nice to everyone, being really polite. And you seemed to be having a really good time. It was with your brother. It was nice to see him and that, yeah. Your sister-in-law, the kids.

And then out of nowhere, you just went, I've had enough now. It's time to leave. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, no. I'm trying to make a good impression. And you're like stopping it. I couldn't understand. I just wanted to go.

Yeah. I was done. That was actually my last one. but we'll merge them into two. But they sort of, they just accepted that. But even without any neurodivergence angle or acceptance or education or awareness,

that's just like, oh, no problem, thanks for coming. Yeah. They were so lovely about it. That sort of have to be, because that's what, is exactly what I'm like. And I don't mean to cause offence. I mean, when you say it like that, it does sound quite offensive,

but that's my reality. I'm like, I'm done now. See you later. When you say your battery just turns off, is it one minute you're happily engaged in combo and then you're just like hating it? Like, is it that quick? I don't let myself get to the point that I hate it.

I hate it because I'm, I feel like I want to go. I've had enough. I'm starting to get tired. And then I think, oh, this is what I want to go and do at home. instead of being here. So I'll just announce, like, I haven't got a problem with being the first to go. Well, I'm always the first to go.

You're always the first to go. It's quite a nice reputation to have, though, because then you don't have to. And think of the good that I'm doing. I'm making it easier for other people to go. So like the person for me that cancels, the ADHD women's meet up. Yeah.

You're doing that at the actual event. Nobody has to be, has to worry about being rude or perceive rude because they're the first ones that want to leave when I'm there, I will take that mantle and then you can go guilt-free. It's funny, isn't it, though, that it's seen as rude to just say, I've had enough now I'd like to go. What would be seen as polite is you ignoring all of your own feelings, impulses and just sat there. That would sort of be preferred by society. It's quite strange. I'll go one better, though. Not only do I just am quite honest about when I want to leave. Like my brother, Andy,

love him to bits. We've got an amazing relationship. Um, last time we saw him in the summer, they were like, we're having a barbecue on Saturday. Do you want to come? And I was like, I love you, but I'm, it's, it's not worth the two hour journey. I won't have enough fun. It's too far to come. Oh no, I feel so. Tell me when there's an occasion. Because Andy's love, so it's occasions you'll go out for. Yeah, and that's probably, linked with like some expectation guilt thing because like it's a four hour round trip to go and eat a burger and say hello like i'll just face time yeah oh but they're your family and he loves yeah but it's probably the only one or one no sorry one of the only people there that i would

really want to see and spend time with because you love him so much that's the other thing isn't it yeah you love him so much but yet it's difficult to spend time yeah interesting okay back to me. So another awful one and why I don't leave the house is social anxiety. Yeah. Just the crippling fear of walking into a room, not knowing who to speak to, where to look, where to give eye contact, who might be looking at me or judging me. Oh, it's just so embarrassing. Having to present yourself, introduce yourself. Like, it really just cripples me. it doesn't present if I'm meeting one or two friends that I know really well but it would be a group setting so like a birthday when there's more people there

or like something at work like a writing camp where there might be 20 people that I don't know it's such a horrible feeling and I don't know why I have it Does it stem from what you think other people think about you? Because you've got some deep rooted stuff about wanting to be seen as a good person. Not, you know, like you're working on it, but like when we first met, you couldn't stand the notion of someone not liking you. What so as in, if there's 20 people, how am I going to come across the most likable to all 20? Yeah.

Yeah, maybe. maybe I'm trying to think of an example like oh I've got an example oh it was this was so bad but because I actually made myself sick like physically sick I went I was invited and some people might not know but I was a songwriter for many years I wrote a few hit records by luck and by chance in the UK and I got invited to an Anne-Marie vocal camp. Yeah. Writing camp. So you're writing songs for Anne-Marie.

I ended up writing a song for her, which has recently come out. So just bear in mind that even through all of this, I did the job, okay? Yeah. So I arrive at this writing camp and I've been invited by someone I know fairly well. And I get outside and I've arrived a little bit late. And I know that everybody is insides in the sort of meeting room area. There's about 20 people, including superstar and Marie. And I couldn't go in.

I stood outside of this building just saying, go in, go in. I was so anxious. I couldn't, like, walk up the stairs. Yeah. And I'm there to do a job. So, oh, my God. What did you do then? So I rang my friend.

I was like, hi, I'm outside. Would you mind coming to get me? I think he must have heard something in my voice. My friend came and got me and sort of walked me in. But then I walked in and it was like having a panic attack. I just saw all these people, all these eyes, tried to wave. And I'm like, oh my God, you look really weird. And then that makes you look even more weird.

So I just went and sat down like this, quiet. I was like, try not to make a fool of yourself. but when that's going on in your heads, you are making a fool of yourself. Anne-Marie's over there. Guess she comes and sits next to, me. Anne-Marie comes to sit next to me. And I'm like, I, like, turned into like a robot.

I couldn't even look her in the eyes. You weren't mentally well at this point, though. I remember because there was a few writing camps, and then we went on holiday, which is where you were crying every day. There was a burnout. I had a burnout. So trying to socialise too much. when you're not meant to, leads to burnout anyway, ended up, like, forcing myself through it,

masking not very well, in a writing room, writing a song, she comes in, oh, I like this song, she starts writing with me, she sat next to me on the sofa, and then I realized I was going to go and throw up. He's like, sorry, Amarie, ran to the toilet, threw up from anxiety, came back, finished the song, left the next day, came home, just so upset. Yeah. And then she released a song called Knock Knock. That's the story of that.

So social anxiety, another reason why I don't leave the house. Okay, over to you. My last is the Irish goodbye. What's that?