LATE BLOOMERS - MENTAL HEALTH 101: What “well” actually looks like (and how we measure up)

Episode Date: September 3, 2025

Ever wonder if your brain’s thriving or just surviving? In this episode of LATE BLOOMERS, Rox and Rich dive into Nancy McWilliams’ 10 qualities of mental health and grade their own messy minds. From secure attachment to zest for life, nothing’s off limits as they swap stories of Rox’s chaotic boozy uni days and Rich’s deer-in-headlights youth. Their scores? A wild mix of wins and “still growing.” Rox finds safety with Rich but still wrestles with self-esteem, while Rich loves their purpose-driven life but questions his grit when things crumble. Along the way they tackle why ADHDers and neurodivergents often feel “less than,” and how therapy, love, and environment can change the soil you’re planted in. Raw, funny, and painfully relatable, this episode isn’t a perfect checklist—it’s a no-shame checkup. If you’ve ever wondered “Am I actually okay, or just really good at faking it?” this one’s for you. 

Book club on Monday. Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers,

you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit Spexsavers.cavers.cai to book your next eye exam. I exams provided by independent optometrists. How do you actually know when you're mentally well? If you're listening to this podcast, chances are you've been on a bit of a self-healing journey. But does it go on forever? Or do we ever get to look at our lives and go, we're doing well? We're quite healthy.

We're going to be talking about the 10 qualities of mental health. Welcome to late bloomers, where we are getting our lives together and mentally well. Eventually. Right. So where did you get this from? Because we are not the role models for this. We are not the yardstick. for what mentally well looks like. I've taken this from the amazing Nancy McWilliams. Nancy is a lecturer at Rutgers

University and she is also the author of the psychoanalytic diagnoses book. Of course it's got something to do of psychoanalytics, your current hyperfixation. Psychoanalysis is the original psychotherapy. It's what so many therapies are based on. It's pretty much regarded as the gold standard. It is long-term psychoanalytic therapy. And yeah, these are 10 things that Nancy McWilliams has basically stated as what good mental health looks like. So are we going to go through these

and then like we're honestly judge how we feel like we are? Yeah, to see how messed up we are. Quick note to our listeners, if you listen to this and you aren't passing many or you're feeling like you having a tough time, this isn't about shaming or making you feel bad.

it might just be a kick in the bum that maybe you need a bit of help and to look into therapy. It's not about shame. It's just about self-illumination, baby. Well, I don't reckon we're going to do very well, so hopefully it's not about shame. So we've got 10, 10 quiz questions. Shall I start? You start us off. Okay, number one, coming in hot, we've got secure attachment. So basically finding others as comfort and not as torment. Okay. So, I think that I have been able to find secure attachment with you, probably for the first time in my life, before you, relationships were so inconsistent, so up and down, so much anxiety, avoidance, arguments, like I had a really, really tough time in relationships.

and that thing about seeing others as comfort, I would always come to you, tell the truth, there's so much trust and love and safety, but bloody oh, it took a long time to get there. Yeah, I'm really similar. I think, I guess you get to choose who you're security attached with because I don't, people as a whole, I'm not really, I'm not viving with people.

I like my few quality people. But yeah, I would agree. Maybe one exception is probably one other person that I would be securely attached with and that would be my brother. And I sort of always had that. But broadly, no, I could not find secure attachment up until now. And it's not just, I guess it's not just about being securely attached with you.

It's like not being anxious or second guessing or whatever with other people. Like I could be securely attached and not have a relationship with someone. Like that, that's quite important, I think. Sure. And it's also important to say that, you know, very often people look at this like, it's how you grew up and you either are avoidant, anxious, or you got lucky and you got secure.

But you can work your way to secure. And actually in, and this came from a YouTube video of Nancy McWilliams. She actually said that you can get to secure attachment through either long-term psychotherapy, ideally two years, or, a devoted happy, healthy relationship when it lasts for five years. So if you are in a long-term relationship with someone absolutely wonderful and you're really happy, then you have got yourself there. We've just gone past five years.

Yeah. So we've just done it. We've really just earned ourselves a space, insecure attachment, and it really is the basis of everything because it's that safe place to come home to in the middle of all the weird and wonderful things that happen in life. Okay, quiz question. Number two, are we mentally well? It's self-continuity, which basically means you have a feeling of being the same person throughout your past, present, future. You can look to the past version of you and very easily know that that's you. You can look into the future and imagine your life. And there's a kind of self

that continues right wow so this is real so i've got some questions really because i have not been the same person throughout if i look at addictions if i look at mental health if i look at where i have come from to where i am now even being like quirky and weird around the house like i was highly masking um throughout my entire life so i have changed loads throughout the 40 years that i've been here but I feel like that's been changing towards like more healthy rather than yeah but when you look back let's say when you were 18 you've just had sear you've just become a dad do you see that as rich is that part of your past or does that feel like it happened to someone else it feels like a different person does it yeah feels a complete like

a rabbit in headlights not even a person a rabbit with a car coming towards them in the dark with bright headlights. So that's interesting that there might be a little bit to look at in terms of self-continuity with you. I'm very similar to you, having changed so much, some quite radical changes throughout life. I can struggle to see the person that grew up in my home growing up. as me or the teenager

or the person at uni functioning, functioning or not so functioning, it feels like a different person. I'm really trying. A big part of my therapy is trying to understand and like integrate that

and to not reject and cut off that person. So you describe you as 18 rabbit in headlights, very scared. For me it was like, I'm very ashamed of

the drinking and the drugs and what I was like in relationship. So it's been easier to, well, that was me then. I'd almost cut that person off. But I think it's quite important to. Well, okay, so we're one tick, one cross so far, I think both of us. Okay. Okay. Number three, sense of agency. So you have some capacity to influence your own life. Oh. So now I would say I can. Like I can choose to eat whole food. I can choose to go to bed earlier. I can choose to do music again at 40. I feel quite in control, obviously not of everything, but like of certain things. And this is about being in control, right? Like, not. Yeah, but being able to understand that it's your life and it's not just happening to you. I think for a really long time I felt like a victim of circumstance.

You know, it's difficult because you can't change everything. But the things that are within your power to change, I kind of do feel quite confident, whereas historically, life just kind of came at me and I just kind of drank through it. And I never really took accountability. If a relationship broke down, it just wasn't right. Or if I got blackout drunk last night,

oh whatever it was a big celebration i didn't really have that accountability so i felt like quite chaotic yeah it's interesting i'm trying to figure out where i am with this i don't i don't know where i am with this because i i i've never i've never had a like a victor sound shaming i don't mean it to be but i've never had like a victim mindset yeah even when i maybe should have like about abuse and stuff like that i've always been like super independent super don't need anyone it's my choice i'm independent it's probably too far the other way um yeah i sort of feel like now i'm maybe a bit more something came to my minds about that with you and it might be different now but it was when this was a few years ago when lily was moving

in with her mum and stepdad and I remember you feeling quite helpless like oh she's moving I'm only going to see her at weekends I've lost little quite sad and quite defeated and I remember seeing you and being like but you've we can move we can go there too which which we did but I've seen that pattering you

like a couple of times historically where it almost felt like you were quite helpless in big things happening. Does that? Yeah, I sort of, I understand what you're saying. I think, though, some of that will play out, you know, moving house three hours away. It feels like a really fucking big deal, a lot of change quite overwhelming,

whereas you don't really see any barriers. So I understand what you mean, and I completely agree it felt helpless. But that's probably because I didn't see moving house that far that quickly to be a practical solution. Right. So almost like you didn't have a choice. Yeah.

But maybe that is agency and control. Like it wasn't happening to you. We have got options. Yeah. Also you have work. You used to drive an hour and a half each way to work because that's just where you worked. Yeah. But again, that's, yeah, I don't, I don't, no, I don't know if I agree.

I had, I had bills to pay, I'd rent to pay, that I had to. But as in, I guess, you could have worked somewhere else or we could have moved. I don't know, it's just, maybe, yeah. Maybe, I don't know. No, I'm not sure about that one. Okay, what's, what number was that? That was three. So I'm on four, well done, yeah.

Okay, four, oh, this is good, self-esteem, having realistic, and reliable self-esteem so that you feel good enough and avoid going to the extremes of self-loathing or grandiosity. What do you think of you? Oh, um... Yeah, I think, I think it, I think it varies.

Um, I think I can be tough on myself if I do something wrong. what's an example oh god if i like make a mistake or do you remember my reaction when i like didn't see the message from the dog groomer like i freaked out about it

like because i'd let them and then we were five minutes late and you were like so anxious that's interesting yeah that's interesting do you generally feel that you're like good enough in your day to day yeah i think so we're usually quite comfortable And how do you respond to harsh criticism or loads of praise? Love loads of praise, get really defensive with criticism, usually, like immediately, anyway.

I think that's quite human. Yeah. I think that's quite human. But the ability to kind of tolerate both is part of self-esteem. Self-esteem is a tough one for me. I think I probably don't. that height, I think I'm getting a bit better, would you say? I would definitely say you are, yeah.

I don't think my self-esteem historically has been realistic or reliable. I think I looked to my music career when I was younger for self-esteem, and I didn't have any in real life. So I kind of hated myself. I was in debt. I was a mess. I had chaos relationships. I was desperately trying to make it in music to try and feel like.

I was worth something, which is a bit sad. I think nowadays that is changing. I completely agree. I think it's changing. I think if there was one thing that you were still, it was maybe a bit linked to your self-esteem, it would be music. Like if you, it's always music you talk about.

Like it's never Dubby, which is a business. We built an app. We're helping people. Like, it's amazing. But it's not so closely in, intertwined with who you are as music is. My music has been with me from when I was younger, when I was having a really tough time.

So I wonder whether it's still a bit of an old pattern. You know, it says here, avoiding going between self, loathing and grandiosity. And I don't have that in real life with W. Definitely not, no. Or videos, this podcast, me and you in real life, the train in the dog. I feel just like a good enough human.

Not the best, not the worst, just vibing. In music, I can self-loathe and I can grandiosity. Yeah, I can feel grandiosity if you're on a stage. Of course, but what's really important is you said you put Dubby in real life when you just said it then and music not. Which is, yeah, but you are getting loads better. I think nowhere near is when we were first together. Like it was really closely linked to your worth. Yeah, but also I was really weird.

Like, I'd never play you my songs and be really anxious and weird. So I guess, you know, self-esteem, it's about finding it in the day-to-day, isn't it? It isn't built on those like when you're on stage. When you're on stage or doing something well at work. It's really just built at home, feeling like you are okay. Yeah. Rocking and rolling throughout your day and all your glory and weirdness. Yeah.

Okay, number five, resilience. So experience, tolerate, regulate, difficult. stuff and keep going with being less reactive. What like difficult emotions difficult situations? Yeah I know yeah and situations and emotions I suppose am I going first yeah

again I don't think I'm going to score that highly and that's okay why do you think that because small things can knock me out right like what

a tough situation with someone at work giving someone bad feedback feeling like someone's angry at me or screwing me over like i oh yeah i can i can ruminate so much and i see it with you and you'll give your own experience of this of course but i see how quickly you can move through being frustrated and then go back to normal yeah i can get trapped in rumination um so i'm not necessarily great when there's interpersonal things but then I think I do have resilience, you know, I kept, you're my 11th relationship, I kept going back believing I find love, stopping drinking, being in therapy for four years,

going up against that the whole time, try music again at 40, like there's resilient parts of my character, like I will try again and again after failure, but yet little interpersonal things Can not me for sex? Yeah, I think your determination sometimes will override your resilience, potentially. You're more resilient, stroke determined in a professional setting or when you've got something to prove. Emotional, maybe not so much. Like getting better, I think, always. It talks about, she talks about, you know, being in that window of tolerance.

So you're not numbing out, feeling depressed, and you're not super high anxiety shouting. It's just being able to be in that middle ground. And yep, I'm working on it. So what about you with resilience? Yeah, I think I am quite resilient, I think, for this one. Don't usually let things stew in my mind. I think what really helps me, though, with that is, you know, let's, for example, let's assume that I'm autistic, it just comes out.

Yeah. So like how I'm feeling what I want to say, I think releasing it verbally and dealing with it or saying it, I find not always easy at the time, but it's a huge sense of relief. You're very direct, which is absolutely a part of resilience, because to deal with an issue, you speak it out loud. You deal with it face to face. You have that confidence. Yeah. Whereas I sometimes don't. So it's amazing to also see, like, where you've got skills.

The good things about being direct, yeah. 100%. What number was that? That was five, so you're number six now. Thanks. My memory isn't very good. That's okay. I've got other good skills.

Oh, number six. The ability to self-reflect and also reflect about others. Understanding your own and other people's minds and reactions. so you can find compassion and actually grow. Okay, so I think that I'm quite a good self-reflector, but I hold grudges externally. Okay, so let's do the good bit. Why do you feel you're good at self-reflection?

I think I really, and it's not even I think I'm good at it, it's a necessity for me. I need to understand if something has gone wrong or I've had an argument. I'll really think about what it was, everything, all the, all the details. And then if I've done wrong, I've got no issue or problem with saying sorry and holding my hands up and holding myself accountable. You do so good at that. And you're also able to sort of say, this is what happened. Oh, this is why I felt a bit agitated. This happened. And explain it. You've got a really good handle with that. So other people.

Yeah, no chance. Like, it's a bad trait. I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm a Scorpio. It's a trait. It's a trait. So in terms of understanding why other people do things and finding compassion, hold on, you have that with me in bucket loads. Yeah, but I think your intent is always good.

You'll mess up. And I don't get me wrong. I'm not, I don't hold people to like an unreasonable set of standards. I feel like they have lied to me, been dishonest, whatever, through sort of self-gain, that'll be it. I can't ever speak to you again. I don't care what was going on for you. I don't know. Is that unhealthy? But I guess the thing is about reflection. Would you reflect and kind of think, I wonder what was going on in their day or in their life or what their parents are like? Okay, so it depends. So most people aren't very good at holding themselves to account. So they'll be defensive.

and they'll lie. So if I've caught someone and they fess up and go, mate, I've messed up, I'm sorry, I can move through that. If they start making excuses and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, I'm done with you as a character. I'm not interested. So maybe a tiny bit of work to do. Yeah.

Self-reflecting others. Who knows? Me feel like I've scored so highly on self-reflection that I've dragged myself into the negative. I've gone the full circle. I self-reflect so much. I almost feel it's to my own detriment. Especially if there's any form of maybe people-pleaser that comes in as well.

Like you'll sacrifice yourself a bit. Like your self-reflect to the point where you'll be looking for something that you've done wrong rather than... Yeah. So I've definitely got the self-reflection. heart. You're always growing and you're like always like the the knowledge that you've got about your mental health is really high. I understand why I get upset, why I get triggered, why certain things will be hurtful to me or inspiring to me. But yeah, I'm kind of trying on working on like living a little bit more in the real world, a little bit less self-reflecting and a little bit

just being in the vibe. Self-reflection of others again, I feel like I've taken these both too far. I have historically always looked into the reasons behind someone's negative behaviour and given almost like an excuse card. Well, you went through this when you were younger, did this, therefore, I'll let you treat me that way. I feel like it can kind of go a little bit too far. Like, you need to be able to self-reflect and reflect on others, but also self-protect Yeah. From others too. So a little bit of work for me there on number six.

Number seven, balance selfish and selfless, being able to self-advocate and knowing when to put others first. Historically, bad. Yeah. I would have put others way ahead of me in like day-to-day life, like fawning, do anything, people please. again, not showing up authentic in relationship. I almost hate just saying, oh, it's people pleaser, because I also upset a load of people with those behaviours in the end. Yeah.

Because if you put others ahead of yourself the whole time, you'll build up resentment and eventually leave in a blazer glory. And that's kind of the rubbish bit. I think over the last few years, some of my work has been advocating for myself and having a voice having a strong opinion in fact I'm a strong opinionated person

and like having the confidence to have that maybe going too far with that and then being like hold on I think one of the strange things about getting more mentally healthy is it isn't neat it isn't linear like you're trying stuff out and in my quest through therapy

to be a bit more assertive probably been a right prick at times to people in the last year. It stuff's come out a bit wonky, but I am trying to find that middle ground. I think you're massively better with the important big stuff. What I have in my mind about putting others first, though, is like a funny, is that you can see threads of you sacrificing yourself to put others first. let's use an example of trying to get through a door when there's people coming the other way you could argue that's polite

blah blah blah blah but you personally I reckon you could be there a year waiting for everyone else to walk through that door before you go the other way I let everyone off the train before me I let everyone on the bus hold a door up and thank every car that's like deep in my bones

it just is that I come last and there's you know I feel good about coming last and that's something that's something i am talking about in my weekly appointments by the way and that's interesting because the big important stuff that you're doing so well with obviously takes a lot of over thinking about it and decision making whereas stuff like that is just in you yeah what about you how do you think you balance balance your needs versus the needs of others i am fairly selfish

I think. Unless you're like in my inner circle and then I'll do whatever is needed. I don't think naturally I'm a selfless person. I sounds brutal but I'm not. I am with you and dear and Lily but I'm not. I don't. And Rocket, what you're like getting up and doing is training and you know when to put a kid's needs or Rocket's needs ahead of your own.

I think I think you can be quite. healthy putting yourself. Who else are you meant to put first in your own life? Yeah, but it's like no one other than that. Like it's nobody. Like I could do a bit like even the way I speak to people I work with and stuff. They, I would never be described at work as a lovely guy. Not, not to anyone that actually don't like. I don't know. I think you might be doing yourself down. Maybe. Remind me the numbers. Eight. Eight. Just look at. Just look at. Just look at the last one you read and then it's the next one. I can't remember it. Right. Wow. Like not even the, read the, okay. Cool.

Vitality. Right. A sense of zest and a liveliness for life. Feeling energized and purposeful. This one sounds rubbish. The others have sounded great. Vitality. Yeah, but isn't that just dependent, like I've hardly had any sleep last night. I am not full of zest. I feel like that changes all the time okay but like overall let's not think about when you've had four hours sleep last night overall do you feel alive and purposeful and energize okay you kind of like enjoying being alive i can answer this but i'm going to still land on that i'm barely unhealthy with this oh but hear me out i am absolutely full of zest i love my life i love what we do i love that we help people.

I love that I'm doing a job that provides purpose. And I used to hate my job, hate life, was just going through the motions. Now, the only reason that I feel like I do now is like external factors, like job, you, a house, the life, the social media is going well. So, like, I know that I've had an act on that,

but, like, I don't know how confident I'd be of having a zest for life if life started falling apart. Yeah, okay, but also remember you've worked really hard. You've done a lot of therapy. You walked through the gambling addiction. Like, you have worked so hard to be able to build a life you feel zesty for. No, I agree with that, but I guess the true, you know, it's the people that aren't living a life beyond their wildest dreams.

Are they still full of zest and hungry for life? I don't know how I would be. I'm not there. I'm not that confident. What about you? What's your vital? I think I'm zesty. Like...

That is actually what you should change your bio to. I'm zesty. Not all the time. We all have low days. I've had low days, of course. We all have low days, but I don't know. I've just always loved having purpose, getting in amongst it. I've had some silly ideas.

I've done some silly things. but I just love trying ideas, creativity, getting out and about. I agree. I agree. And actually, when you look at you, I am, I'm not grumpy, but I am grumpier than you. For sure. So, like, I've definitely, I'm scoring higher on the vitality. Thank God, because I've been scoring low on the others right then. Listen, to me, number nine, I've remembered it. No, I'm number nine. I know, but I was just saying I'd remembered it. Oh. Okay. Number nine.

acceptance of things that can't be changed I am working on that I'm working on that for me obviously what comes up is my mum dying and the grief journey that I've been battling with for 18 years it's tough man acceptance is so so tough also the relationship with my dad

you know I've spoken to you recently about this I am fighting so hard to find acceptance that we have no and probably won't have a relationship but it's so hard to stop fighting it's so hard to put it down it's so hard to stop trying idealising begging

I don't think I'm I don't think I'm amazing at acceptance I think I still have some work to do. How about you? Me, Eva, I don't think that I am. Like, you know, I can link this to holding grudges and stuff like that. It's all very sort of absolute. And there's a difference in my mind between accepting it and burying it.

And like, do you know what I mean? Do you think you're more of a barrier? Yeah, I think so. Like, the big stuff in my life, I've learned to accept, like, the abuse when I was younger and that sort of stuff. and some big family relationship dynamics and stuff like that. But, yeah, so I don't, but other than that, maybe not. We both have a little bit of, yeah. Bit of acceptance.

Okay, and the final one, number 10, is a lovely one, the ability to love work and play, to find happy relationships, to find some purpose in what you do, and have a laugh doing it. And you know what, even though I think I've struggled on a few of these, and that's why she is in therapy. Actually, that one, love work and play, which is kind of the core of life. I'm so happy.

I love you so much. We have the most wonderful relationship. Doggy, kiddies, home life is where the good life is. I love work. I love doing dubby, body doubling up. I love doing music. I love doing this podcast, loads of fun and purpose even on tough days. And then having fun and being joyful, we're always dancing around like dickheads

and having a laugh and just living life. So I kind of feel like on those. I agree. I think for me, love and work are big ticks and play. I think we get too bogged down into work to actually have the time to relax. You have started playing goals. again though in the last couple of months playing cod again you've started adding in a bit more play which i think is amazing so i think we'll end that on an amazing one guys we hope you've enjoyed

the 10 signs of whether we are mentally well i don't know how well we did i don't think we done that well but look life's a journey isn't it life's a journey we're still growing and getting it eventually if you enjoyed this episode like subscribe follow share comment do all of the jazz that you know what to do and... And if you don't just go to the next video. Find acceptance in things you can't change.