LATE BLOOMERS - MONEY PROBLEMS: Debt, shame, and what money does to mental health

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

In this episode, Rox and Rich get brutally honest about their financial journeys, sharing how debt, addiction, and shame shaped their lives. Rox opens up about hitting rock bottom with debt, the overwhelming shame of a poor credit rating, and the challenges of climbing out of financial chaos. Rich reveals how his past struggles with poverty and gambling addiction made him hyper-cautious with money—and how they’ve found balance together despite their very different approaches. They also explore the link between ADHD and overspending, the mental health impacts of financial stress, and why it’s so important to break the stigma around money struggles. Packed with raw honesty, hope, and practical advice, this episode is for anyone who’s ever felt trapped by their finances. You’re not alone—and there’s a way forward.

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Welcome to the Late Bloomers podcast where we are getting our lives together. Eventually, it's a pretty big topic today, isn't it? Yeah, we're going to talk about money and actually thinking about it. Nobody ever talks about money on the internet. I don't know why. They also don't talk about rolling their own tampons. That's true, yeah. But here we are.

Talking about the things that nobody else will. Because it's apparently shameful and embarrassing. I guess this topic is just really private and maybe can be embarrassing and well, I suppose let's get into it with our stories, right? I think if you're in debt, you don't want people to know. I was so ashamed when I was in debt. And if you're earning loads of money, you don't want people to know. So no one ends up talking about it. But actually, it can cause a lot of serious mental health problems.

It can be really destructive, as we both know. So I think we should speak about it. Well, they say that money can't buy happiness, which is clearly true, but it definitely can buy misery. I think. Overdrafts and credit cards. Yeah. So maybe let's start with what's your relationship with money.

I'm interested to know how you answer this. So my relationship with money has not been very good. Yep. And I'm talking forever. So I remember as a young kid signing up a catalogue credit cards. How young? Nine, ten. What? How? You can't do that though. They never asked for official government ID and I just said I was over 18 so I'd lied about my birthday. Wow.

And then I was spending, I only had like 250 quid but for a 10 year old that's a lot. Yeah. Got in quite a lot of trouble with my parents for that. I bet. What sort of store cards were they? Just like um like catalog like clothing. That's crazy though because obviously Lily, my step kid is 10, thought of her signing up to a credit card and going shopping like she would just never do that. Will she doesn't like spending money that she does have. No, that's true. She's just trying to create a big part of money. That's obviously as a kid, a bit of an ADHD symptom though, right? It's hyper focusing on wanting something, not seeing any barriers to entry, being quite oppositional, going for it,

applying for a card, impulse spending. I mean, yeah, you could also look at it as a positive in a weird way. The due diligence that it would have taken to like fake your own ID. No, I didn't have to fake ID, I just had to fake a birthday. Well, lie, go through the application process, somehow presumably hide the card that arrives through the post from your parents and start shopping for onesies and stuff. Took a lot of ovaries.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I've always been a risk taker. But that pattern of behavior, which is wanting to spend money that I don't have, has followed me my whole life. So obviously did that as a kid. My next big one was at uni getting into loads of debt, not just student debt, but also taking out credit cards. And I was actually over 18 now. So I was able to get higher credit limits. I ran up thousands of pounds worth of debt, which my parents found out about. I had to sort of go into a deal with them to pay it off.

And I got in so much trouble. Yep. Again, didn't really learn the lesson. How did you approach that? They approached me because there was, I think, bailiffs came to the door. Oh wow, okay. Ouch. Bet that was an awkward conversation, right? I just felt so ashamed. I was in massive trouble. You know you've messed up, but you've been caught out. Just horrible. And through my 20s, similar thing, just credit card debt.

But it got worse because I was taking out mobile phone contracts, I was paying rent. So I've been evicted from houses, not paying rent. I've had CCJs, actual county court judgments, due to not paying a phone bill and then just moving on, moving house, never changing the address, but it catches up with you eventually. Well, that's right, because we nearly couldn't rent our first place together because of your CCJ. Do you remember? Or of course you remember. Of course I remember. It's like the most shameful experience when you've got better, you've got sober, you're out of debt and then this thing you've done 10 years ago is still haunting you. But I think it had

actually just, or it was six years ago, it just slipped off. Yeah. Or it was just about to. Just about to. So it was perfect timing. But yeah, absolute chaos. It brought me so much shame. I still don't understand why I wasn't able to just be normal with money. Not only was I overspending on credit cards, not paying bills, not paying phone bills, not paying electricity bills. I was also spending so much money on music because I was trying to make music work. So any bit of actual cash I had rather than paying back debts and bills, I was spending on music videos, on the band, on touring.

Probably some drugs and alcohol in there as well. Also drugs and alcohol. Yeah. You definitely lived an expensive lifestyle, I would say. Yeah, I did. But I mean, it was just horrible. I remember people turning up at my door. I was living in a basement flat alone in London. Mental health was on an absolute floor. This was in my late 20s. And I hadn't paid my electricity bill. And these guys from the electricity company turned up,

knocked the door. I was shit scared, so I hid under the bed. Nothing changes, don't answer the door now. Don't answer the door. And I just heard all this noise, chainsaws. I was wondering whether they were chainsawing down the door, but they were cutting off my sort of electricity box and replacing it with a pay as you go meter. And they just had a letter through the door, but they were cutting off my electricity box and replacing it with a pay-as-you-go

meter. And they just had a letter through the door, you no longer have normal electricity, you'll be going for a meter. Sort of little top-up chip and had to walk to the corner to top it up, which of course sometimes I didn't do or didn't have the money to do. So it would just be set in the dark. That's brutal. But like listening to that, when we met, I wouldn't say you were good with money, far from it, but you weren't in that situation. So like what happened? Where's that gap? So when I got sober, I couldn't run from it anymore. And all of the money I owed, yes, phone bills, but also work bills. I owed people I'd worked with 500 quid here, two grand there.

I owed a music lawyer £2,000. Don't think you want to owe lawyers money. Imagine owing a lawyer £2000, ignoring the emails, avoiding it, being an absolute dick, let's be honest. But when I got sober, like part of the gig is facing your problems. Yep. So I had to face all this debt I was in and I had to start making payment plans. And this lawyer in particular just stands out because I emailed him, you know, hi Simon, I'm so

sorry I haven't paid this. I've been in active addiction, not an excuse, but I want to explain I would really like to make a payment plan. And obviously felt so disgusted at myself, so ashamed, crawling back to someone who's been, you owe two grand. And he wrote me back and went, this is incredibly brave, really proud of you. Absolutely how much can you pay a month? Yeah, I bet that was quite emotional. I burst out crying because, makes me cry now because I've owed this bloke two grand for

two years. He should hate me. He should be taking me to court. He's a lawyer. And in the moment I reached out, he showed me like absolute understanding and kindness. And we're still in touch now. Still follows me on social media, keeps track. It's like that sort of kindness in the world is really rare. But I'll never ever forget it. Whilst Simon is quite clearly a legend, it's also not surprising. I would imagine all these people have just written you off, like, I'm never going to get this money back. That's

lost. So actually, although it was brave and it was quite shameful, it's also a really nice good act that probably came as a surprise to most of these people. Yeah, I think so. And I think the important lesson there is when you're in debt, when you owe people or businesses money, you avoid it due to the crippling shame of how terrible a person you are. And you think people want to ruin you, take you to court, ruin your reputation, which means you avoid it even more. It's a vicious cycle. Whereas actually what I found was every single person I went

back to was so gracious and kind, even the HMRC. Let me do a payment plan. Yeah, I was six weeks away from my company being struck off the register because I hadn't paid taxes. That's going to freak you out hearing that. No, I know. I remember when I started taking over, you hadn't paid for that for three years. You had to sort that out. Yeah. So, like it was, it was a really, really bad situation. I owed money everywhere and I honestly could not see a way out that I would ever be able to pay all that back. But I did. I don't owe any money. I'm not in any debt anymore. How though? Because it would have been loads. So how, like what happened? It's probably about £40,000.

Yeah. But I wasn't really earning anything. So I was struggling to pay £300 a month rent in a friend's spare room. So they'd let me go months and build it up and then I'd try and save and pay it in chunks. I wrote a hit record, I wrote a song. And this is wild, right? Because nothing will ever explain this. It's probably coincidence, but it feels so much deeper to me. I wrote a song in 2018, so the year I got sober, and it ended up being picked up by a DJ and it ended up coming

out on May 24th, which is my mum's birthday. May 24th 2019 and it became a massive hit, half a billion streams on the radio everywhere. Half a billion? What song was it? Post Malone by Sam Feldt. Post Malone by Sam Feldt. Tonight we go all night long, we party like Post Malone. I don't sing it because I sound terrible. It's sung by the wonderful Rani, my friend. And that, so that was the start, presumably you started getting paid royalties for this and it got you out of shit.

Yeah, so the people that I wrote it with, we shared some of the master points, we shared some of the earnings. It's actually really unusual, songwriters normally don't get that. So looking back, I'm incredibly grateful to them. And over a couple of years, that money fully paid off my debt and stopped the company going bankrupt. So it's a really crazy way to get out of debt. I wouldn't advise it to anyone if you're in debt trying to write a hit record. You were obviously a bank manager for 20 years. So what is the actual advice for getting out of debt? Well we sat down together didn't we for you and just broke things down bit by bit one step at a time and now you've got an excellent credit score, is that right?

I remember having to tell you, a bank manager, that I had a very poor, like bottom of the bottom credit rating. Yep. You rang me. Did I? You rang me when I was picking Lily up from school, when we were like really first into the relationship and was like, I've got something important to tell you. And you know, it's quite big.

And I was like, wow, what on earth could this be? And then you like shared that you had bad credit and you weren't very good with money. And, you know, at the time I didn't have a dating app, but my profile definitely wouldn't have said must have good credit score, like to be considered. What would it have said? I mean, look, it wouldn't have said looking for an alcoholic with half blue hair. No. Okay. But I remember you almost laughing at me, not in a horrible way at all. But I remember you almost laughing at me, not in a horrible way at all, but as in, we can fix this. This is not a big deal. I'm a bank manager. I see this all the time. And honestly, the sense in me was that you were going to end the relationship because I remember

saying if we're going to do this and be together and one day would want to be in a position to buy a house, I don't think I can because of my bad credit. So I thought I'd ruined it before it even began. And you were just like, nah, come on, it's fine. And helped me with things like registering to vote, putting my name on a utility bill, all these tiny little things going back and paying that old phone bill, these tiny things. And it took about two years to move from very poor to excellent. I cannot tell you like the pride, I can't tell you the pride of having an excellent credit rating.

And it's, I have to look after it. I don't have credit cards. No, you do not. You look after sort of all the money. I get a thousand pound a month allowance. Sometimes I try and push for a bit more. And some people probably hear that and think that's weird or that I'm doing something wrong, but that's how it works for me.

I need those boundaries because I'm very impulsive. I don't want to blame it on ADHD, but looking through an ADHD lens, you can understand dopamine chasing, shopping, spending, not thinking of consequences. Like I'm still the same person as the 12 year old girl or eight year old girl applying to store cards. Yeah. But I'm protected. You've got a late blooming credit score as well.

Late blooming credit score. So let's talk about a very different story with money, which is, Which is you. So obviously for me, my first experience of me with money was store cards as a young kid. What's your first experience of money being a big deal? Well, let me just start by saying I've had an excellent credit score since I had a credit score. So I guess 18. Seriously? Yeah, but I've not always had a brilliant relationship with money. So I remember as soon as I could get a job, I got a job at 15. I liked earning money from a young age and I never went to college, I never went to university, I've just been employed since, well, 15, worked at Sainsbury's,

which was brilliant, by the way, loved it, and then worked in the bank from 16. Now, although I worked in a bank at 16, I was like an entry-level cashier at the time. And when I was 18, I had my first child, Sir, who is probably sleeping upstairs at the moment. And although I had a regular job, it didn't earn me much money. So I've got some quite, you know, unique relationships with money.

And it stems from, I say my childhood, I was an adult dad. But I, you know, I look at an 18 year old and look at them as probably childhood just coming out of the end of it. I mean, 18, definitely still a child. So you grew up really quick. So when you were 18, were you Sainsbury's? Were you the bank? Where were you at 18? No, I was the bank. I was a personal banker by the time I was 18. So like little salesperson on a desk, but I was still probably earning back then, a thousand pounds a month. And obviously I had rent to pay and bills to pay and now a baby to feed. And I remember I just had no money at

all. And this is where I became like really anal about money. So I had a little book and I would write down everything that was spent like to the two decimal points, to like, to the pence. And I had an exact budget of 40 pounds a week for weekly shopping. And what made it harder, which I like sometimes feel a little bit sad about, when I was 17, my parents moved to Spain. Or it was just before I was 18. But I moved out at 17 and I remember my mum used to drive over to me once a week and take me to Lidl. But when they moved to

Spain I had a child and I couldn't drive. I hadn't passed my driving test yet. I was only a baby. So I had no money. So I was having to like get the bus to Lidl, which is like the budget supermarket. That's great. It's amazing, but it's budget. Having to get the bus because I couldn't drive, having like my little list and writing down as I was shopping, writing it down with a calculator to make sure I knew exactly what the bill was. writing it down with a calculator to make sure I knew exactly what the bill was. And I think from that experience, that's never left me. So I like, although I've got a bit of money now, I can't waste it. I cannot process wasting money and I also can't process spending money unnecessarily.

So I will always look for a bargain, I'll always look for a deal. I'll spend an hour, if I want something, I'll spend an hour researching where I can get it for the cheapest. You know, I might save a tenner and I'll spend an hour saving a tenner. I just can't do it. I don't think I ever will be able to, sort of in-built into me. Money because you still have your little book. You write down income, outgoings.

Not quite as specific. No, not to the pence. That's a lovely freedom to give yourself. but I'm always shocked. I think once you were traveling to Spain a few months ago and you wanted to book yourself a seat with more leg room, five for eight, I don't know why, but I'm kidding. And you were like, Oh, no, I don't think I'm going to do it because I don't think I want to spend the money. It was like 11 pounds, wasn't it? It was 11 pounds. And I was like, babe, you can, like, we're doing okay, you can do £11. But that protection, that sort of desperation has never left. We go to Tesco's, you'll go to the

aisle, you know, where they sort of do the discounts, the reduced. It's really sad hearing reduced, it's really sad hearing you being 17, 18, not being able to drive, getting on a bus. Do you think your parents knew how much you were struggling for money when they went to Spain? No, like no one would have known. No one would have known. So they thought you were rocking it basically? Yeah, everyone would have thought I was completely fine. I would never have shown the vulnerability. I suppose at the start of this episode we said nobody talks about money. It wasn't shame because it wasn't my fault. I suppose it was my fault for being a dad at that age with

no money. But it was more embarrassing. I was embarrassed that I couldn't afford to like go out. I would just say no if I was invited out because I couldn't afford to do it. Yeah. And then some of those, you know, without sounding too wokey, some of those wounds I think will be forever. And although I think I'm a little bit better at spending money now, I will always instantly react quite strongly if I think that there's like an unexpected bill or all of a sudden I need to spend money. Like I'll need time to process it and think about it and then be okay with it. It hits you really hard if something comes in unexpected or we have to spend a bit more money or someone's fee has gone up. It's like a real jolting response but it makes sense if you

were on the bread line, if I go over this 40 pound my kid doesn't eat or doesn't have nappies. Yeah. It's really interesting because you said Sears is probably upstairs in bed. Yeah. Probably true. How do you process that when at 18 you were working a full-time job, getting the bus with your notepad? Obviously Sear didn't ask to be born. Yeah. Right. So it's not their fault, but just your story now. You went through all that. And then at, you know, 20, they are starting to sort of work in their own way, but they can lay in till 11, 12.

I've had conversations with Seir about this actually, it can cause involuntary animosity. I can look at them and think, you need to work for this if you want it, like I had to. And that's just natural, that's really human behaviour and it's something that I'm really open with Sia about. Even when we used to have a little bit of a routine of going out for breakfast and stuff, I was like, well, it's fine, but I'm not going to buy you breakfast every day unless you do something in return. So like maybe some jobs around the house. I'm making work for their money and I will be, I will be boundaried. But they know that it comes from a place of love. But sometimes, yeah, sometimes I'm only human. It can be like, how comes you get to do that when I didn't?

Or maybe even a little bit of jealousy, like I wish I could have laid in bed. Had total freedom. And they are working, by the way. They are. They're actually improving and doing really well. But it's certainly very different from where you had to be out of desperation. I think the key there is that you do say to Seir, this is hitting me hard because this is what I had to do. There's this awareness and I think if you label it, the kids will actually awareness and I think if you label it, the kids will actually really enjoy hearing that story. Definitely.

Whereas it could be if you were just angry or treated them like shit without labeling it, it could cause issues. What's really interesting. So we've heard our two stories, me all over the place. Credit cards, debts, CCJs, you frugal notebook little. But you developed gambling addiction. Do you know what? It still doesn't make sense to me to this day. And I think when I talk about my gambling addiction, I say I always consider myself like sensible and responsible. And that's something that just doesn't make sense. And that's what I mean. Like I'm good with money. How can somebody do this? How can somebody just press buttons and spend £90 each button

press or nothing. Well that's exactly what addiction is, isn't it? Like at its purest form, it's just deciding or being compelled to do an insane behaviour. Well yeah, because I always describe it as almost not being in control of gambling. It's like someone else was pressing the button. And this is a good example of that because if it was a conscious choice that I was making, I wouldn't make the choice to spend or waste money like that. I wouldn't be able to. What's interesting, and this might not be relevant at all, but I was reading a book the other day,

a psychoanalysis book. Of course you were. Because you know that's my special interest. Yeah, I do. And it was talking about a sort of phenomenon which is lightly described as every neat freak has a dirty draw. Being a metaphor for anyone that's super, super controlled or super, super strong one way has a little bit of the other way that they conceal. So you were so frugal, you were so forced into not spending, not having any money. It's

almost like that that part of you is like rebelling and coming out to balance out the opposite. I'm so sorry. Like when you when you said that I've been waiting to ask you, I've been waiting to speak. Does it work the other way around? Like, do you have one area that's really tidy in the house? Your analogy with every neek freak has a dirty drawer. Every chaotic ADHD has one area that's really tidy. Yeah, I don't know whether that's true for you anyway. My bathroom shelves.

Oh my goodness, we found it. We have found your tidy area. My bathroom is pretty much always perfect. So it does work the other way around. How fascinating. It sort of tends to be, it's just the natural balance. If you're sort of meant to be in the middle of life, like flexible and quite happy, any time you pull to an extreme, your body's trying to settle the score with just bringing a bit of the other. It may not be relevant, but it just really made me think about that. Yeah, no, I think it is relevant. Actually, like,

you know, talking about polar opposites, we're, that's probably why we work so well, right? Like, with money. We are polar opposites with money. Yep. And some people might look at that and see, well, how does that work? Or you must argue. I think it has been the biggest blessing. I think we've rubbed off on each other. Yeah, I agree. You have helped me curb my self-destructive spending. Yeah.

So I'm not in debt and I've been able to save. We've bought a house this year. I'm 40, first time buying a house. I'm so proud. I never ever thought I'd be able to do that. That's because a lot of the systems and advice you've helped me with. Well, and yesterday, literally yesterday, you were having an argument with your manager about a budget because you were spending too much money, that wouldn't have ever happened. Yeah, I'm starting to care about where money goes. Yeah. But I think I've helped you where you might have still been in the book and Lidl and Frugal. I've helped you maybe go into a spa or go for it and buy the new Xbox. Like I've rubbed off on you in terms of spending money and spending money is always seen as bad, but you get to do amazing experiences and

go to escape rooms and get your hair cut like you deserve to spend on yourself. Completely agree. I definitely would not have stayed in some of the hotels we've stayed in if it was my decision. I would have still been on booking.com filtering by price lowest to highest and and and choosing one of them so we've had a lovely time we have ever loved it so I keep you in five-star hotels and you keep me from going bankrupt winner winner guys if you have enjoyed this episode, do all the jazz, like, subscribe, follow and also leave a review if you enjoyed it. If you didn't, just don't.

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