LATE BLOOMERS - SURVIVING BURNOUT: What happens when your body finally says no

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

In this episode of LATE BLOOMERS, Rich and Rox dive deep into the reality of burnout — not the buzzword version, but the terrifying experience of your body, mind, and soul completely shutting down. Rox shares her personal story of chronic self-neglect, the warning signs she missed, and the breaking point where she physically couldn’t lift her own arms. Rich offers his perspective on watching it unfold, and the helplessness of seeing someone you love slowly disappear under the weight of invisible pressure. We unpack the hidden warning signs, the toxic culture that rewards overwork, and the complicated shame that can keep you trapped in a cycle of destruction. Plus, we talk about how to actually start healing — and why listening to your body isn’t weakness, it’s survival. If you’ve ever felt like you had to keep going no matter what, or you’re scared you're heading toward burnout yourself, this episode is for you. It’s real, raw, and hopeful — because it’s never too late to start again.

Welcome to the Late Bloomers podcast. Today we are talking about the big burnout. We are going to talk to you about what burnout is, what it feels like, what to do if you are burnt out and also how to build a life that you don't burn out from. We're specifically going to talk about when it happened to Rox in 2021, which was an interesting time. It was, and hopefully there's some lessons to learn for us and for you. This is the Late Bloomers podcast where we are getting our lives together.

Eventually. Burnout. Burnout, yeah. So should we like go straight into what happened with you? Because it's just a fascinating story. So I'm going to ask you some questions about it. Is that okay? I'll put my cards down then.

So you'll know when I'm talking about. So firstly, I suppose, what was going on before the burnout? So this was in 2021. We were living together in Seven Oaks and I was working as a songwriter. I was doing five sessions a week, quite normal to be working five days a week. Now I had known for quite some time that it wasn't really making me happy anymore, but I didn't feel I had the right to say that because I was someone who was a chronic quitter. I've been called lazy in my life. So I knew I couldn't quit. I had no choice but to carry on turning up. So I just sort of forced myself to keep working on something that I wasn't necessarily enjoying, that I was finding quite tough. And I was so disconnected from the fact that

I wasn't enjoying it. It's also the year that I started to release my own music. My first single came out in 2021. So I had this whole other thing that I felt I was being drawn to that I wanted to do, but I would not let myself spend more time doing that. I was gonna force myself to keep songwriting with no care for the consequences. And what started to happen to you in your body?

I remember waking up one day and just feeling like, oh my God, where have I gone? I felt like my entire personality had disappeared. I felt numb, just like a shell of a person. I remember sitting up in bed and looking out the window and just feeling totally empty, feeling nothing. And it really scared me because I'm a person that feels a lot good and bad. Obviously, I didn't know what it was and I didn't know what to do with it. So I just carried on getting ready and going to work and sort of forcing myself through it, I guess. I remember it was quite a scary time because it was just, there was nothing, it was like nothing behind the eyes. When you looked at you, there was no sort of joy, no happiness.

And you have a lot of joy now, like it's part of your personality. So when that goes, it's really noticeable. I remember thinking to book a holiday that would solve everything. But let's get some rest. Let's go and get some sun. And I think our first day on holiday, we're in Spain, we were walking along the beach just on the way to dinner. And you just started crying, didn't you?

Like, just started crying. I was like, oh my God, this hasn't worked. But do you want to just talk through that? Yeah, I think I thought going on holiday would fix it. I was like, I feel nothing, but obviously I love being on holiday, and I love the sun, and I love blue sky, and I love the ocean. I remember walking into our hotel room, and you'd done a very unrich-like thing and you'd booked a slightly more expensive one that had a sea view.

Yeah. Which is really cute. It was a suite actually. Yeah. Because you know that I love a sea view. And I remember walking into the hotel room, walking to the doors, opening the door and walking out onto a balcony in the sun, looking out onto an ocean. And historically, that would be a moment of like pure happiness and joy for me. And I felt nothing. So it almost made it worse. Like being at home in Seven

Oaks, doing the monotony of a job I wasn't really enjoying, but forcing myself to do. Okay, maybe that's just what it feels like. Maybe I'm not enjoying life. That's okay. You get up and you keep going. But when you're on holiday somewhere beautiful and you feel nothing, it becomes even scarier. And yeah, then I was crying in the hotel room, just like inconsolable crying on the bed. And I remember you sort of obviously cuddling and consoling me, but I wasn't able to say what was wrong. I was just like, I'm just sad for what felt like no reason. And that whole holiday, I think it was only five days, but that was quite common every day. I'd, at some point would just have to drop behind if we were

walking or take a break from dinner and just go and cry because I was on autopilot. I felt nothing. I felt like I'd disappeared and it was, yeah, it's really, really scary. Yeah. I think as well, just going back to sort of some of the causes of it, you doing a job that you didn't like, there was loads more to it than that, wasn't there? It wasn't just work. Because, you know, I would imagine there's loads of people listening to this that are in a job that they don't enjoy. So what else was it? So I wrote down on my little card. Yeah, right way up this week as well.

Is it? Yeah, well done. That it's basically burnout is your brain pulling the emergency brake and stopping you when you won't stop. Yeah. So it's like a sort of chronic doing. So yeah, I was working, but I was working with no boundaries. If someone said, can you stay till 11pm to finish this? No problem.

Can you come and work on this on a Saturday? No problem, whatever you need." Every single thing that was offered to me, I said yes to because I was trying to show I'm hardworking and I'm reliable. Things that I've never, ever, ever been seen as or called. So I was so desperate to prove those things. I was also doing the same thing in friendships. I had a couple of friendships that I hated being in, that my body was telling me this is bad. Anxiety every time the phone would ring. I'd force myself through. I'd force myself to go and spend time with these people, go and babysit their kids, put them as priority. So effectively, everybody else was number one priority to prove I was a good person. And me, I wasn't part of that equation at

all. So we've talked about being a people pleaser in previous episodes, but that says to me, if you are a people pleaser, that's something that you struggle with. This is a real risk, right? Like this could absolutely happen to you if you're sacrificing yourself to please others, like this is something that could sort of creep up on you. Almost feel like people pleaser. It feels too light of a term to describe this type of behavior. It's a level deeper, I would almost call it chronic self-neglect. Well, self-neglect. So that was going to be my next question was, physically, how are you looking after yourself? Like, has that got anything to do with it as well? Physically, I was falling apart. So I had long-term bad back pain that I was taking daily painkillers for.

Yeah. So strange. Cause now I don't have it at all, but it was just this back pain is here. Now I'll take a painkiller and that's just life. I put it down to just getting older. back pain is here now. I'll take a painkiller and that's just life. I put it down to just getting older. I had stomach problems, often wasn't very well. I had UTIs, remember my like, recurring. Oh yeah, you were in hospital for... UTIs. And the strangest one of all, I had two frozen shoulders. Yeah.

Effectively, both shoulders went through a huge amount of pain and inflammation for a couple of months, and then they froze. I couldn't lift my arm above here. And then it happened to the other one. And that probably took a year to 18 months to sort of heal from. So my body was screaming at me that things weren't okay, but I was forcing it, get dressed, put your makeup on,

go and do the session, go and see this friend. So you were working too hard in a job that you didn't like. You were saying yes to everybody, even though you should have been saying no, and you weren't looking after yourself physically. And it led to, well, a burnout, an absolute sort of emotional and physical meltdown, which nothing could, at the time, seem to fix or rectify. So let's talk about how you started to get through it. What happened? So, you know, when you put it like that, I can understand why I wasn't feeling very well.

Yeah, so I think on that holiday was actually when it began to turn around. I know you'll remember this because I always talk about this lady, but I obviously had a lot more free time for those few days because I wasn't working. So I was able to think about my shoulder pain and my back pain. And I decided to go and put myself a massage, like a really deep tissue massage. And I went to a sort of another hotel. It was obviously it was a spa hotel. It probably cost me 150 euros. I never lost the ability to spend money even whilst in a burnout. Very impressive. And this lady was massaging me in my shoulders and my back. And she was very warm and she had sort of maternal energy, which obviously I don't have a mum, so like, that really hits me when there's like elder lady kindness. It just, it floors me. And she was just so shocked at the state of my body. And she was like,

Oh my gosh, in thick Spanish accent. Oh my gosh, this, this isn't okay. You must be in so much pain. You need to go and see a chiropractor the minute you get back home. Like, and it's so strange. What kind of massage therapist says that? But the sort of shock and, and she couldn't believe the state that I couldn't move my shoulder. I remember her saying, you're too young to be like this. She said, you're too young to be like this. And I don't know. I just kind of accepted my fate. Like the self-neglect was to such a point, I'm not going to get help, I just need to keep working. I can't be seen as

lazy or selfish or putting myself first. But something about that lady, I don't know what it was. It was maybe like I projected my mum onto her and I was, I could receive it from her and I was ready to listen. And I think that was on like the last day of our holiday. Cause then I remember coming to you and saying, I need to cut back on sessions. I need a couple of weeks off. Well, the exact words, cause I remember the exact words you said is I need to prioritize health.

Wow. Is what you said. Yep. And as a byproduct to that, you canceled all your songwriting sessions. Yep. I took, it was about two weeks that I stopped working for. And that was so scary because, you know, I'd been working as a songwriter for a few years. I'd made some real headway.

So the thought of slowing down, I just felt like I was going to lose everything. People were going to see me as unreliable. It was all of my old fears of things I deeply don't like about myself coming up. But I did it. And I remember I booked into a chiropractor and she was amazing. Very quickly I had exercises to do. I was also told that one in three people with like chronic low back pain is actually gluten intolerant. So it might be an intolerance. It turned out it was, because when I took gluten out of my diet, that back pain went away. And we began working a sort of protocol of building lower back strength and of also working on my frozen shoulders, because I couldn't lift my arms. It's crazy. She also got me to do a blood test.

It was so strange. It was a chiropractor, but she sort of acted like a sort of holistic doctor almost talking about gluten and blood tests. I did a blood test and it came back that I was low in vitamin D. So she got me on vitamin D and magnesium. And it's so crazy because, you know, in those moments where we feel, I'm going to say it, but like thinking about end of life bad, like that you're so bad, you don't want to be here anymore. Someone's saying take vitamin D. It could land as like, but you don't understand. Like I've disappeared, I'm not here, life is over. It can land as something so small and you don't want to listen to it.

Well, I can really relate to that if I think about Seir. You know, they've had, they weren't sharing. So Seir is Rich's eldest, 21 and my step kid that live with us. relate to that if I think about seer, you know, they've, they've had, they were sharing. Rich's eldest 21 and my step kid that live with us. And they struggled with mental health issues. They're doing brilliantly now, but for years and years and years, they'd say, I feel bad. And I'd be like, well, have you had some fresh air? Like how, what's your diet like?

Are you drinking enough water and stuff like that? And you could almost feel their like, eye roll at the time. Because you don't want to believe it. And this isn't just serious. It would have been the same for you. It would be the same for everyone. It's like, don't tell me to go for a walk. That's not going to cure all my problems.

But actually, if I look at what happened to you, and it wasn't just one thing, there's loads of stuff, diet, vitamin D, exercise, not, you know, saying no, all of that stuff, it all adds up and it starts making such a huge difference or it did with you anyway. I feel like sometimes you feel so bad that you're looking for a huge reason why. You want, you almost want a really strong label or diagnosis or for something to be really wrong to justify the amount of pain or lack of feeling that you're in. Someone saying vitamin D could feel like being belittled, but it didn't land that way with me because

she also had me on this gluten protocol and she was doing all this. Yeah, cracking all the air out of your bones. Yeah, stuff on my shoulders. And yeah, within a couple of weeks, I felt myself return to my body. And I honestly was in the point of thinking that the thought crossed my mind, what if this is me? What if this happy bubbly person that enjoys life has been a total fake and now I've lost the ability to act anymore? What if this is me? What if this is life now? Which is a horrible thought. Literally, as you've been talking, it really scares me. We didn't discuss this before the podcast, but it, like, how it crept up on you

and the impact that it had makes me think of what's happened in our life. So like, had you not gone through this and prioritized health and stuff like that, ADHD Love wouldn't have ever existed. It wouldn't be a podcast, it wouldn't be that. ADHD Love wouldn't have ever existed. It wouldn't be a podcast. There wouldn't be an app. We wouldn't have written books. And what it does is it makes me think of now.

It makes me think of what we do now and the health decisions that we make, the diet decisions that we make. You know, we're not, we're not terrible. We're not like we used to be, but actually so easy to make bad decisions when it comes to prioritising health and you don't know the impact that that's going to have on your future. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think what's crazy is I do more work now than I did then. Written two books, kids book coming, we run the app. I'm also being a rock star. We do the podcast.

I work more now than I did then. But it's because I was faking it then. I was forcing it and I was ignoring, I was totally ignoring myself. I don't ignore myself anymore. If I feel uncomfortable, I don't want to do something. I will put that on the table. So it's that thing about, you know, really listening. And obviously burnout does happen to anyone and everyone. And anyone working at that chronic level of doing can experience that. We do see it spoken a lot about in the ADHD and autistic community. And a huge part of that is masking. Because a lot of us are pretending 24-7. Pretending to be okay, to be organised, to be on time, to be like dealing with stuff at work, to be like adulting. We're faking it. And that takes a huge amount of energy. So you're already

super depleted. And then you add the job and all the other stuff on top of it. So talking about masking is a good time to talk about why burnout happens. So number one is masking, So number one is masking, effectively pretending to be okay when you are not, forcing yourself to operate and act like a person you are not and totally disavowing who you are. It's really tough because we have to mask, I think everybody masks a bit at work. It's when it becomes totally disconnected and gets you in a lot of trouble. Number two is performative productivity. What's that? You need to be seen as somebody that works incredibly hard. You are never ever going to say no to extra work offered, extra hours. You are deriving your self-worth from how hard you are willing to work yourself and push yourself for the approval of other people.

Yeah. And that happens in friendships and relationships as well as work. Also in parenting. Yeah. Just trying to be perfect, pushing yourself to the next level. Again, totally disconnected from who you are. And there'll be so many layers as to why as well, isn't there? Like RSD springs to mind and stuff, like what people think of you, how you're perceived, all of the stuff that you'd have gone through as an ADHDer in childhood, rolling eyes and stuff like that, just preventing all of that negativity. You're desperate to be not seen as lazy.

So you work yourself to the bone. It's really, really sad. And then the third thing is ignoring your body. Your body is going to tell you it's not feeling well. Maybe there's brain fog, tiredness, pain. It's going to say, hey, I need to go to the optician or the doctor or look at your vitamins. If you don't listen, it will start speaking louder and louder and louder. And it put me on my ass. I couldn't move my arms. I couldn't get out of bed and I totally disappeared. I find it though, I mean, you're 100% accurate and it's true what you say.

I find it very difficult to know what my body's saying though. It's easy to say, listen to your body and I can know that something's not right. But like in the moment it's well hard. Like it's like, I don't know, I just feel like crap. Yeah. So I think it's twofold. There's physical stuff and there's emotional stuff. So let's take, if you are always feeling anxious about one friend that's calling you, you need

to maybe look at that friendship. If you are waking up every day with back pain, you need to think about gluten, chiropractor, exercise, whatever it is. So it's like, notice it first and then just try and think of a little, a little plan. It's putting yourself first. Yeah. And that can really make a big, big difference. Okay.

So we've talked about your story. We've talked about why, Hopefully this bit is quite straightforward. Well, it'll be easy to say, maybe harder to potentially implement, which is basically everything that we talk about is easy to say. Yeah. So some of the ways to prevent it happening, saying no more than yes. I mean, that's really difficult. Yeah.

But I also think it is the key. Yeah. The key to not burning out is saying no. And that's saying no to friends that want to see you on the weekend when you're knackered. It's saying no to the overtime that although maybe it's tempting for the extra money, you need to rest. It's saying no to a partner that's wanting you to do something that you don't want to do. Like saying no,

I think is the most important word that we can learn. I completely agree. The thing that I see with you, well, two things, right? So I do hear you say no more. So you've obviously practiced it, but, and there is a but, and I reckon that this could affect everyone with ADHD. What you don't do very well with love, like I love you, but you don't do this very well, is knowing when you're gonna be really tired

before committing to something. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yep. So this week, we're going full day of work with the app developers. I know, I know it's a three hour journey each way and it's a full day meeting. Rox will be knackered, like completely knackered.

But what are you doing? Bear with me. No, but this isn't a criticism. This is a, you can't see how you're going to feel in the future. So there is a gig happening at Wembley. It's one of Ume at Six's final gigs ever. And Holding Absence, one of my favourite bands, are supporting. ever and holding Absence, one of my favourite bands, are supporting. So my plan is after we've been to Bristol, done the six, seven hours launching and building live body doubling, I'll come back to London and I will go to Wembley and go to the gig. Yeah, so lovely.

No criticism for that, but there is a serious point to it. It's the same reason you don't look forward to holidays is you can't really see into the future with your condition. You can't objectively go, I'm going to be really, really tired at that moment and I'm going to regret the decisions present me as making for future me. That's so true because it's almost like I project how I'm feeling now. So I feel fine now. I would go to the holding absence gig now, therefore I'm going to go on Thursday night. Now, logically, I know that I probably will be tired after long drives and all of that time working on the app. But just because I understand it logically, I don't feel it right now. So therefore it's not real. Therefore I have got tickets to the gig. But what's so crazy right is that you've brought this up under a thing of saying, no, nobody's asked me to go. That's true. That's actually so true. Like I've decided to go with my own

accord. So I don't know how you that's not saying no more. That's well, you know, my next point is going to be listening to your body and taking care of yourself. Right. So maybe it's a bit of that. Maybe it's understanding how your future body is going to be in that moment. Okay. So listening to your body and going to be in that moment. Okay. So listening to your body and taking care of yourself would be after the long drives and a whole day building and brainstorming on Dubby, which is for anyone that doesn't know we have a body doubling app and we've got loads of live sessions launching and we're going to be doing loads more.

of live sessions launching and we're going to be doing loads more. Effectively, I'll be so tired in order to look after myself, I should come home and get an early night and have a bath. The thing is though, the thought of missing out on holding absence and you meet at six doesn't feel very good. So that feels like looking after myself. I don't know. It's, we'll let you know. Well, you know, one, if she goes and two, if she does the impact that it has, what other tips have you got? Okay. So I've got listening to body.

We've just, we've just covered, um, noticing the things that drain you and noticing the things that energize you and prioritizing. I mean, that's so, so, so huge. And I think again, that's relationships, that's friendships, that's work, walks, exercise, so many people with ADHD, autism, with trauma, we have a very different energy resource. People talk about spoons. And it's almost like we have a limited amount of energy

for life and things we're meant to do and then unlimited energy for things that we love. But we have to see the world not in terms of time, but in terms of energy. I honestly wish someone would invent a calendar that rather than like blocking out bits of time, you block out energy. So if it's like a tough phone call, that's half an hour, I'm blocking out four hours because I'm going to need to prep and then I'm going to need to come down from it. Where if it's like researching something I love and it's only going to take me in a couple of hours, but actually that would go in as a small slot because it would give me energy. I know that sounds insane.

If this is a really interesting topic, right, because obviously, we're talking about mentally now. And so the things that mentally energize you are things that mentally drain you. And like going to the gym and exercising that will bring you energy. But it will obviously diminish your physical energy, which is also, you know, something that you need to look at. So it's, there's a balance because you can do all these things that energise you and then be, but I can spend seven hours a day at the gym. I'd be like, I'd sleep for 14 hours a day. Like, so there's, it's got to be a balance. It's really tough.

I think it's, it's trying to find balance. And in the context of avoiding burnout, it's noticing the things that drain you. Is there a friendship that leaves you feeling empty and low? At work, every day, are you feeling empty and low and finding it difficult every single day? Is there a change that can be made? Is it time for a new job or a move? It's just noticing. It's again, it's listening, listening

to your body. That's why I don't interact with a lot of humans. Because interacting with humans drains you. Most humans. In the beginning of our relationship, I was always like, I feel so sorry for you that you don't have a lot of friends. Yeah. And you're like, no, no, I'm absolutely fine. Because it drains you and I've learned that, but that's you looking after yourself. If you were forcing yourself every day to do a phone call with a friend every morning, then go and speak to people that we work with for hours and then go and socialize in the evening. That's like what happened to me.

That would be your version of burnout. Wouldn't it? No, thank you. No, thank you. So I guess- Wait, I've got one more point. Oh my God, go on. Rest. That's important.

I think rest is so underrated when it comes to working hard and maximising productivity. Because you feel like have to work all the time, can't get off the treadmill. But actually if you rest and work, the work that you can do is 10 times better because it's coming from an inspired, energised place, not the burnout autopilot place. And I think it's important to say that rest can look different for everyone, right? Because you rest really differently to me.

So you'll work solidly for three days because you'll be like hyper-focused, I can't do anything else. And then you'll need a couple of days of not doing anything. So it's like- Scrolling on the phone. Or I also rest sometimes by coming up with business ideas. Yeah. Or thinking about songs. Like creativity can be energising and restful for me. So it's whatever works for that person, but just kind of slowing the breakdown. So really hope that this has been helpful to anyone that's experienced burnout. And I just want to say to anyone that's like in that at the moment, that's lost themselves, feels numb, brain foggy, feeling really, really

low, that it will be okay, that you will come back, you might just need to look at health, you might need a bit of time off, might just need to adapt life a little bit to just take care of yourself. And I think if you've got a partner that's going through it, all you can really do is just be there, be there for cuddles, be there for support,, be there for support, maybe have some suggestions about some nice things that you know are restful

and peaceful and energising, like just be there. The most important thing you did for me was just cuddle me when I was crying and not put pressure on me to get better or to change it. You just, you let it all come out. And that's kind of what needs to happen. So we have to come away from which the last thing I'll say, you have to come away from feeling like it's personal. Cause obviously with if you're in a relationship and you're looking at the person, they're like, got no joy or no happiness.

There's nothing you think, oh, right. Cool. They're not happy in the real life. That could be over then. Like, and it's removing yourself. the situation. Yeah, it's not about you, it's obviously something else in life, but yeah, you'll get through it. So thank you so much. This has been Late Bloomers and if you've enjoyed this episode, like, review, follow, all of that jazz. And if you haven't, just scroll on by. Move on by.