LATE BLOOMERS - THE INVISIBLE RULEBOOK: 10 social rules ADHD and autistic people were never taught

Episode Date: March 11, 2026

Why does small talk feel so awkward? Why is eye contact so confusing? And why does honesty sometimes get labelled as “rude”? In this episode, Rox and Rich unpack the invisible social rulebook that everyone seems to follow… except no one ever actually explains it.Together they break down 10 unwritten social rules – from small talk and eye contact to reading between the lines, texting expectations, and the pressure to “be polite.” They explore why these rules often feel confusing, exhausting, or even completely illogical for ADHD and autistic people.If you’ve ever felt like socialising is a game everyone else somehow learned the rules to, this episode will make you feel seen. Rox and Rich challenge the idea that neurodivergent people are “bad at social skills” and ask a bigger question: what if the rules themselves are the problem?20% off Loop Earplugs: https://www.loopearplugs.com/pages/lp...

The Bell Air Direct app includes crash assist, which detects an accident the moment it happens, and even offers you emergency assistance at the tap of a button. Okay, but what if I don't have an accident? Well, just keep on, keeping on. Bell Air Direct, insurance, simplified. Conditions apply. Does the fact that you have to make small talk when you meet people make you feel really weird? How about holding eye contact?

Today, we are talking about the little book of social rules, all the invisible rules that no one ever told us, but that we are expected to follow. Welcome to Late Bloomers, where we are getting our lives together. Eventually, brought to you by the amazing loop earplugs. Social rules. Someone needs to do a book called The Little Book of Social Rules and just tell us all what we're meant to be doing

because I don't have a clue, you don't have a clue. Well, I'm not having it. I'm not having it. I think they're wrong. I think the rules are ridiculous. and they don't make sense. That is a spicy take and I am so here for it. We're going to talk about like the 10 rules that I think A, don't make sense and B, play

havoc with the neurodivergent experience, okay? Yeah. Like, I'm so ready for this episode. Yeah? Some of it makes me quite angry. We're going to take a sledgehammer to the social rules. I am even tells you a rules. Okay.

Number one, small talk being mandatory. Okay. Oh, God. This could be half an hour. Just this topic. It's so awkward when you get on a Zoom or you meet people in real life to know that there is an expectation to talk about something that doesn't mean anything for a few minutes until people are ready to speak about what's actually going on. I don't know what that small talk is meant to be. It's normally how are you?

How is your weekend? Something about the weather. It can't go deep. It can't be too real. It has to be a lie, basically, light and surface level. But it's so awkward. It's just like, why do we have to do this dance? Well, we have different experiences, right?

We hate it equally, but we experience it differently. So you will do it and hate it. You'll go through the charade and you'll be asking questions you don't care what the answer is. I refuse to do it now. I just don't. Like I'm the, so it is awkward as well for me

because I'm like, can we talk about what we meant to talk about? So rather than adapting to the social rule, which is what I try and force myself to do, you're just like actually it's my new rule, which is no small talk. Yes. I actually think that might be better.

Like the one thing, how the world works, and I understand why it does work on the average, on the neurotypical, I don't say normal, but you know what I mean. So the neurodivergent perspective, you are always the odd one out. You're the minority. But what you're saying is, who cares?

It does have its problems, though. So at work, where everyone knows me, I can get away of it. It's like, oh, it's rich. He doesn't. Don't talk to him. about the weather or the weekend he doesn't care. It does prohibit you sort of meeting new people though.

Because you can't, do you know what I mean? Like that has to start with small talk. So, but I'm also fine with not meeting new people. There you go. So everyone's a winner. You might not ever need it. It is funny, you do just refuse to participate in that rule. And I used to find it a bit awkward because you'll just be silent or looking away

or when is this over guys. But now I've actually learned to love it because I feel the same way. I just have that kind of ADHD anxiety, people please at energy, which is like, I need to be in this and smile, say they're at the force, the facial expression, look human. It's just...

The thing is, though, and this is what makes me so angry about it. And I will stop talking about this specific point. It's all pointless. All of it is pointless. Talk about the weather. We live in the same town. to look out the window. Why? Why? What?

So apparently there is a real social function, which is to show the other people or person that you're not threatening. So it's to show a smile, a politeness, a kind of engaging, just to kind of soften the social situation. Well, I like to show them that I'm not threatening by not being threatening. Ah, yeah, it's a good point. That's my take on it. It's a good point. Right, number two, I've got to move on from that one. I'm getting wound up.

Eye contact is polite. I feel like we're different with this as well. I don't know where you sit with it. I just don't like it. With you, I will make eye contact with the people that I love, the people that I'm close to, I will have a conversation. Usually, though, that's because we're having a conversation that we both are enjoying rather than rubbish from point one.

but like my autism assessment, it was actually in the notes that I didn't engage in small talk, wasn't interested. And there was sort of no, I was just sort of looking around the room when I was storytelling. But even with me, you do, I don't know if you're aware of it. So sorry to like drop an autistic bomb on you.

But you'll do this. You'll go, yeah, Bubby, with you, I do eye contact. I'm always looking you in the eyes when we're talking. But with other people, like sometimes I don't, you give me a few seconds at the start. You're going to need to explain what you just did. And then you look like, oh, my God, anyone that's listening that isn't on Spotify or YouTube,

I basically looked him in the eyes for a few seconds and then started sort of looking around the room. Yeah. So look, you don't vibe with eye contact and... Well, wait, wait, sorry, again, there's a difference between... So I did look at you in the eye. I didn't stare at your eyes the whole time I was talking.

So I think looking someone in the eye is fine. Why do I need to stare into their soul? Why do I need to try and see their brain through their eye holes? It's unnecessary. So my take, I also struggle with eye contact, but it's not for the reason that you do. My struggle with eye contact is the internal narrative that runs inside my brain about the eye contact. Now, if I'm relaxed and I'm not thinking about it, I can actually be okay. I'm looking at you now, I'm feeling fine.

Yeah. But if I'm in any kind of situation with someone I don't know that well or I'm outside of my own house, I will suddenly become really aware. I'll be like, I'm staring them in the eyes too much. Which are I looking? Am I looking in the right or the left? Wait, do I need to, I should switch between the two.

Right, now I'm switching between the two. Is that what they're doing to me? Or are they looking at the bridge in my nose? And then I haven't heard anything that they've said. So then I'm like, start listening. So it knocks me out of the conversation trying to figure out how to have the correct eye contact. And by the way, it's a really important point. Eye contacts, which eye are you looking at?

Are you looking in the right? Are you looking in the left? Are you switching between the two? How quickly are you switching? It isn't okay to have a social rule without giving follow-up bullet points for how it actually works. It's interesting, though, that the first two points have had the same thread in the You will hate it because you will adopt it. And I hate it and refuse to do it.

Wow. Both of them have been the same. Like you ruin your own conversations by having to stick to this and adapt this rule. I wonder if that's going to be a theme of this episode. Let's find out. Number three. And this is kind of two parts. Having someone ask you how you are and saying I'm fine, no matter how you are,

and asking someone how they are and wanting them to just say, I'm fine even when it's a lie. It's the question, how are you doing? How have you been? And the social rule is that you answer, I'm great, thanks, how are you?

I'm fine, thanks. How are you? It is a complete lie. Nobody is great every single day. And if you are great, you can follow up. I'm great, thanks. I actually went to the gym this morning, stuck to my routine,

had a coffee feeling really good. or I'm actually struggling. My hormones are all over the place. Or I'm having a bit of a low time. Or I've had an argument with someone that's playing on my mind. It's the expectation that we're both going to say the acting sentence and we're going to lie to each other.

And what I want, and this is where we'll be different again, I want the truth. I want to say to someone, how are you doing? I want the truth. And if the truth is, I'm great. Oh, that's amazing. Why are you great? I'd love to hear.

And the truth is not so great. So sorry, mate. What's going on? Yeah. So we are different because I don't want to know. Unless it's going to impact why we're here. Like, if I was playing golf and I said to Matt, how you doing? Like, I don't ask him that because I don't want to know.

Unless the answer is I've broken my leg and I can't play golf, then I need that information. So you don't. want to know how people are at all? No, not really. But certainly not strangers, not in the way that you're talking about. So that was probably a bad example, actually. Let me retract it because Matt is a very close friend. I probably am interested in what's going on in his life.

But the people at work I speak to every Monday, how you do it. I will, and if I'm asked, I will either, I'll do two things, one of two things. I'll either say good, but in the most disinterested way, I won't ask it back. I'll be like, good, right, should we start? So it will be like part of the sentence to get rid of this. Or I'll answer literally. I'll be like, well, actually my chest is really aching from the gym or whatever. Like, I will answer.

You actually do quite well when you answer literally, like what's actually going on. Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. Number four, this, this is nuanced, but I do stand by it. Being honest is being honest is being rude. So I feel like I need to clarify what I mean by this. So being honest about something that maybe you're not pleased with or someone at work, someone's let you down. I think being honest could be like rude, but I don't think it is. is because it's like how are they going to know how are they going to change whatever there are probably sometimes where like you have to either choose not to say if someone says how do

I look and I think they look ridiculous I'm not going to say I think you look ridiculous because I think that is rude do you know what I mean this is a bit of nuance with this one yeah there is I think a good example would be a situation where you're expected to have a certain reaction so have someone said to you, I'm really exciting news. It's my birthday in two weeks. I'm having a huge party in London. Would love it if you would be there. Yeah, happy birthday for two weeks time.

I don't like parties, so I won't be there. But I wish, I hope you have an amazing time. And that could be seen as rude because it's like, well, that's their birthday. That's important. You should over, you should actually lie and say, oh, wow, sounds amazing. Can't wait to be there. But that is a lie. That's a lie.

It's not good. No, but I think a lot of. these rules are about lies. I don't know whether they're white lies or, I know, like weird lies. For me, like being honest is being rude. So yeah, I want to be honest about how I am. I want to be honest about the things that I like. But I'm also terrified to upset anyone. So sometimes I won't be honest because I'm so desperate to not be rude. So desperate to not be seen as rude or rude. selfish or any of those things that I will lie.

I won't be honest. And actually that ends up being a bit rude because you deny that person, that friend or person you're in conversation with the chance to get to know who you really are. Yeah. I don't think that's very polite and I'm really working on that. Oh, it's so layered, isn't it? Because I reckon people would look at us too. So this, you know, I'm talking managers, people we work with.

and they would look at you as like the most, the nicest, and they'd probably look at me as the rudest. But you would probably be the one that could potentially blow up a relationship because you've not shared how you're feeling, let it build up, resentful, and then it explodes. Yeah, being nice is a one-way street to being horrible. Whereas being direct is a one-way street to being known. Yeah.

So for me, be nice, be nice, swallow it down, be nice, be nice. Eventually it bubbles over and I'm like, right, I hate you, I'm leaving. And then someone's like, what? I thought you were the nicest person ever? No, I'm not. People get that so wrong with us and I think it's again one of those social rules that is like, being nice is great and being direct is rude. No. And I've learnt with you, take the direct person every single time because you know where you stand.

You know they're telling you the truth and I am actively working on being more I think you're doing great actually Like you Right yeah thanks okay Number five It's Knowing when to take turns in a conversation

To keep it flowing So for me I really really really struggle Number one I can want to interrupt If I'm like having an amazing combo with someone, they say something, it sparks a thought in my brain. I'm like, oh, I need to tell you this too, because I'm the same. Oh my God, we're bonding.

This is so much fun. And what you end up doing is then word vomiting out before they've finished. They then see you as rude. I'm like, oh, my God, I've interrupted. That's like the ADHD interruption shame, which I'm not very good at. And the second one is, if it's someone that I don't know that I'm not comfortable with, that like social, you know, like you're throwing the social ball. and like they throw it to you and like you catch it and then you hold it for one and then like you

throw it back. I am so bad at throwing the social ball with someone that I've just met and I will actively be thinking like conversations like falling flat. Do I need to fill this space? Oh is it is it your turn? It causes like anxiety and overthinking and in those moments I'd rather just be you stare off in the distance and not say anything but I'm too petrified to be seen as rude. Well I have two modes with this, which is really interesting because it depends on the topic. So if we're talking about something creative or in a group or brainstorming ideas and it's not my like expertise, I will look at my phone, stare into the distance. I'll be, I'll be listening, but I won't want to contribute because I'm like, all these people that are speaking are better than me at it.

So I'll listen. And that could make me look disinterested, but actually it's a, it's a way of me saying I actually really trust and trust what you're saying and validate it. But it works the other way around as well. So if we're talking about something that I know my knowledge is better than anyone else in the room, I'm not very good with it. I'm like, I don't, there's no need to hear anyone else because what I'm saying is going to be accurate and correct.

So sort of listen to me and let's agree with what I say. You struggle sometimes with interrupting. If you've got a point that in your mind is a fact, you don't want anyone else to speak. And you'll keep trying to interrupt even when they're speaking. Well, it's because a fact is a fact, unfortunately. There's no nuance to that. I love it. And what about the, like, throwing the ball in a conversation?

And, like, say if you're on the phone with someone having a phone conversation, do you feel comfy having that back and forward or not? Well, I would never have a conversation with someone that was, like, just a catch-up. I don't really often find myself in the conversation, like in that situation, because if I'm on the phone with someone, we're talking about something really specific and it'll be answering question, ask it, answer, ask, answer, ask, then maybe you'll switch turns. But like, it wouldn't be like, so what's going on in your life? Like, let me tell you about my, like, no, no. Before we get to the next one, a very quick word about our sponsor. I'm so excited to talk to you

about loop earplugs, who are the sponsor of the late bloomer's podcast. Loop earplugs are something that Rich and I use probably every day, definitely every time that we leave the house. They have a range of different earplugs available for different things that you're getting up to, whether that is taking a nap, kind of do some work, or going to a rock concert. They're absolutely amazing, and it really helps with those neuroplugs. with those neurodivergent sound sensitivities.

And we've got our own website with Luke where our listeners can get 20% off. So go to the show notes or the links on our bio and enjoy. Right, let's get back into destroying social rules. Number six, if you are quiet, something's wrong. I really struggle with this because I'm like usually in my happy space when I'm quiet. And actually, even though we've been together for quite a number of years now,

you can often think that something's wrong if I'm quiet, isn't it? I will tend to read your quietness as you tired and not feeling well. Have I done something wrong? You punishing me with silence. Not that you ever, ever have, hello history of that. And I have to really actively learn that you, quiet, doing your own thing, can actually be you really happy and like really engaged. in your own life.

Mm-hmm. And I think then if you put you in a social situation, a big barbecue, you kind of sat in the corner playing with the dogs. Lovely. That's your perfect. You're happier there than chatting to neighbours or friends. And people could read that as the weird bloke in the corner with the dogs. I'm happy with that though.

Yeah. I'm okay being the weird guy in the corner with the dogs. I think it suits you. For me, if I'm really quiet, probably something is wrong. I don't know. It depends on whether you've got your phone or not. Like if we're on a car journey and you're just no phone, you're not. Well, here's the thing.

You've got two modes of being quiet. Because I can look at you and you could be quiet, but you're visibly thinking or having a conversation in your head because there'll be facial expressions and like your eyes will be moving, your head will be nodding. So you'll be doing everything, you'll be doing every bit of social interaction other than talking because it's all in your head.

When something's wrong with you, you don't move, you just stare. Wow, that is such great feedback and it's so true. So I can be quiet on the outside, but really, loud in my head and that's actually when I'm doing well. But if I'm full on just heads quiet, I'm quiet, I'm burnt out, I'm dissociated, I'm depressed, like something is wrong with me. But then in a social situation, if I'm in a social situation in that depressed state, people would read it as rude or weird, but.

Yeah. Or depressed. Yeah. Bang on. Well done, guys. Accurately diagnosed me. So it's me, yeah? Number eight. No, isn't it me?

Are you sure? Oh yeah, it is you. Sorry, jump in the gun here. Number seven, respond quickly and appropriately, or you don't care. Oh, God, this is big for me. Go on. Well, I can't. Unless I've processed it, I can't respond.

If you tell me something's wrong or I've upset you, I can't respond. immediately because it would be disingenuous. I could say, I'm really sorry, I didn't want to upset you, or I'm really sorry that, whatever, but unless I know what I've, what I've done, why you feel like that, I can't, it'll be lies. And we've had to work that out, haven't we? Yeah.

Because I used to be so desperate for an instant convo, if you've upset me, I want instant validation, instant apology, or instant. talking it out, but you would almost shut down. And then I would read that as you don't care, you don't want to have the convo, you're trying to avoid saying sorry. And that used to actually cause screaming rounds, but a bit of conflict with us. Yeah. Because now I can be like, you've just done something that's really upset me. And I know you're going to need time to process. Do you want to come back in 10 minutes? It's that ability to, for me to understand, You are 100% listening.

You 100% care about what I'm saying. But you need time. I don't understand it yet. You don't understand it. And let me be really crystal clear. I don't often blow my own trumpet. But I'm going to now. Out of everyone I know, I reckon I'm one of the best at apologising when I have done something wrong.

You are so good at apologising. So it's not about shirking the, do you know, apology. It's like I need to know before I do. And I completely understand that. And now, because I know that, I can wait. And actually it's about me being okay, regulating myself to not need that in that moment to be like, right, I've told you now, have the process in time. And you'll either come back and say, I really see it. I did this. I'm really sorry. I won't have again. Or I actually disagree. But I so respect what you've said, here's what was happening for me. A combo happens. And it's just lovely. When I read this, which was like, respond quickly and appropriately or I don't care,

my mind went to communications, emails and texts. Oh, okay. I see. It's so interesting to the different ways of how you're expected to respond. Yours is emotionally in the moment is where the issue is and my issue is in a timely manner on text messages. I'm just, I hate texting. Yeah. Yeah. I hate it. I'm constantly behind.

I catch up, then I'm behind again. I don't like it. I almost long for a day when we just had home phones, long for a day before phones, because I wouldn't have this constant noise of being behind.

I just really, really, really struggle. I know that that'll be red as not caring or being lazy. And I also sometimes wonder if I'm a bit selfish, because I'll always reply to you. And if somebody sent me some really important work news or big news,

I'd reply to that. I can sometimes be quite good at work. It's like my personal life where I drop the ball. I wouldn't moralise that because I have learned, and the people that you work with, I will never message you unless it's like need a response.

Like it's not a social. It's not like small talk by text. It's I need to know this bit of information. And you'll just respond to it. There will be no thread, no chat, no like pressure to engage with me socially via text. It would be like, I need to know this. I'm not sure. Here you go.

You're also in the sort of like safe zone. Yeah. Like I think we all have a couple of people who are like in the safe zone. Like you're always going to get the phone answered, always going to. respond because you're in a constant bubble. Anyone outside of that constant bubble like my world to have to cut the noise out because otherwise I'd never get anything done. Okay.

Number eight, read between the lines. I can't. I just can't. I've tried. You're like, just make the lines what you mean so I don't have to read between the lines. Yeah. The lines are there to be written on. But there's no, like there's no.

there's no, you can't write a book and then write stuff between the lines. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. Like if you feel in a certain way, tell me and then I'll do my best to change it or validate it or whatever. And like don't, don't make me guess because you'll just get more upset. But that is so real for a social rule. Like people would hint towards something or suggest something, leave something maybe

be a little rude unsaid or important unsaid glaze over in the hope that you'll pick up on it. It's like, no, you, we will not pick up on it. Like, say what you mean. Well, I was just saying about not picking up on it. Like passive aggression comes to mind here. And I don't necessarily not pick up on it. I do. And I'll immediately be like, why have you said it like that?

Do you mean this? If you do, can you just say? it because it's cowardly passive aggressive. Oh, I hate passive aggressive. I'm going to be aggressive but shroud myself in positivity. Oh, shut. If you need to be aggressive. There's also, I really struggle with a sort of reading between the lines,

but like ulterior motive. I tend to, if someone says something, I'm like, that's the thing. That's what you mean. But so often that isn't what they mean. There's all these other strands and worlds and. it can be a negative thing. It could be like a manipulation happening. And it will just glaze over because I'll just believe the words.

And it leaves you actually quite open to like getting in some bad situations. Yeah. Number nine, this is always respect the hierarchy. And so I am so bad at this. And I think that's fine because I'm trying to do it your way. It's like there's someone in the room. that's really important. I don't know.

They have a really important job or they are something special. You're meant to adapt and show kind of reverence and you're almost not meant to treat them like normal. I just really struggle. To me, everyone's the same and you'll get treated by how you show up as a human being on that day. Yeah.

I've always struggled with this. now I live my life with it not really mattering. There's no, I don't work for anyone, but this really showed up at work for me in the bank. And I've always struggled with it. So I would never pander or treat anyone differently. And it was received in two ways. So I'm talking about really, really senior leaders.

I would be completely myself. And that would either be loved and they loved me for it because they were tired of like people pandering and treading on eggshells and stuff. or it would be hated because it was like, who do they think they are talking to me like a mate? And it was like, whoever, like, I'm not in control of that. It's so true, exactly the same for me, slightly different scenario.

It would be people that were quite high up in music, head of a publishing company or head of a record label. And I would just speak to them like normal. Like, I know what I'm talking about as well. And, yeah, sometimes people are like, oh, this is great. very often in the music industry, people in power, if you don't suck up in the right way,

you can tell they're just like, who do you think you are? And they're then sort of a bit out to get you. It's gross. No social hierarchies. Like if we were to bump into the, no, not the queen, the king, you'd be like, you're right, mate?

Like it wouldn't be any of that. I like that. Wouldn't care. Wait, last one. Number 10. don't correct people if they're wrong. I feel like this is a me thing rather than a nuts thing. Like, are I, why?

You actually answer that question. Why can't I correct someone if they're wrong? I'm going to speak from the perspective of the social norm. Yeah. Okay. So you're on a call. There's 10 people on a call and someone says, last week this number was 87% and you'll go actually I'd worked it out as 86.

The reason why in that moment you may not want to, you might embarrass them in front of the group. You may make them feel bad or ashamed. You might look like you're picking up on tiny things that don't really matter, gets in the way of the flow of the combo. So that's their problem though, not mine. Like if you don't want it to happen, be accurate. what never ever make a mistake ever Yeah but you make less

and then like it will become less of a problem and when you're talking about percentages this ass fact that's like a maths book you can't make mistakes in a maths book they don't make mistakes at school when they're teaching kids how to add, subtract and divide Okay let me do a different one because obviously your kind of special power

is numbers percentages patterns your area where you know that you maybe struggle is reading and words. So imagine if you were on a call with someone, you were just chatting and they're like, actually, Rich, it's this way to say, actually, if you used the wrong tense, sorry, can I just jump in? No, but I wouldn't have a problem with that, right? So if someone says, if I like, I don't know, if I pronounce a word wrong and someone corrects me,

I'm like, thank you, because now I'll stop pronouncing the word wrong. I've been doing it for 10 years. No one's had the minerals to tell me that I've been saying it wrong. So I've been looking like a dick for 10 years saying it wrong. But if you were on a business call with 10 people and you were in the middle of a presentation, sorry, Rich, can I just correct you? I don't know. No, I think I would be fine.

Well, I'm going to try it next time. Yeah. Sure. See what happens. I don't correct people. By the way, right. So, okay, what you're saying makes a bit of sense to me, don't do it in front of 10 people. So are we out here saying you should email them afterwards?

Because I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen either. I'm playing the social rule. I don't know. Would you want to be told if you had a bogey? Have I got a bogey? No. Why have you picked bogey then? Because I think it's the same thing.

I think it's kindness telling people. I think we're going to need to talk about this in another episode because there's so much to dig into. Guys, thank you so much for bearing with us through the intolerable social rules. Let us know what you think about them. which ones resonate and any others that we've missed out. Give us a like, share, follow all of that jazz, and we will. See you next week.

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