LATE BLOOMERS - THE SHAME SPIRAL: How to stop feeling like a failure and embrace who you are

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Why do so many people with ADHD struggle with shame? In this episode, Rox and Rich break down the cycle of self-criticism, exploring how productivity culture, masking, and forgetfulness fuel feelings of failure. Rox opens up about her own experiences with shame—from harsh self-talk and fear of judgment to the pressure to appear "put together"—and how it impacted her relationships, creativity, and mental health. Rich shares his perspective on supporting a partner with ADHD, highlighting the importance of compassion, communication, and breaking free from unrealistic expectations. Together, they unpack the difference between shame and guilt, why self-acceptance is essential, and how reframing your inner dialogue can transform your self-esteem. You’ll also hear practical tools for overcoming shame, including: Rewriting negative narratives about yourself Letting go of perfectionism and over-apologizing Doubling down on your strengths instead of fixating on your struggles Surrounding yourself with people who see and accept the real you If you've ever felt like you're "not good enough" or that your ADHD makes you a failure, this episode is a reminder: You are not broken. And it's time to start believing that.

Drive safe and obey the rules of the road. Vehicle owners who receive a red light or speed camera violation can pay or dispute online at toronto.ca slash aps. This week we're going to talk about the shame spiral and how to break free from self-hatred. We're going to talk about where the shame spiral comes from. Things like productivity culture, RSD and masking. And we're also going to discuss some

practical ways for actually changing it and starting to live your best life. Welcome to Late Bloomers where we are getting our lives together. Eventually. So it's the shame spiral, something that I know very well. You do know it very well, like better recently but actually. You do know it very well. Like better recently, but actually... Historically, not so good. It's basically feeling like a failure despite trying your best. That's kind of the story of my entire life. And I think it's the story of so many ADHD or neurodivergent people that we keep trying and trying and trying to be neuro-typical and plot twist, it never works.

Well, shame is such a powerful, powerful thing, isn't it? It's like, it's just a word. It's a five letter. Is it five letters? Yeah, it's a five letter word. And it's used loads, but actually it's really destructive. Think when I feel shame, it is so deep. It's in my body. It is like burning self-hatred, embarrassment, just wanting the ground to open up, swallow me up, to never be seen, to never try again. It's just like deep, deep, deep self loathing. I don't know why this comes to mind, but my first ever music video comes to mind. That

was a big old... Oh yeah. When you were like, you had put on a bit of weight. You look great, but like in your eyes, you were really nasty to yourself the night before the music video. I mean, I was shouting at myself. I'm disgusting. I'm a let down. I'm a failure. I always do this. It's probably the first time you saw quite how horrible I could be to me. And you know, that was pretty common. It wasn't common. I said it out loud, but if I'm late to something, when I used to lose something, remember it brightened, I lost my wallet, I had a huge meltdown. You just go into self-shaming, self-hatred

and it's really, really horrible. So we're going to unpack that today in the hope that if someone's struggling with that at home, they might actually learn a little bit of self-kindness. Okay. So we're going to talk about shame in relation to people with ADHD, neurodivergent people and where it actually comes from. So there's three places, I think, where the shame spiral comes from. And that is existing in productivity culture, RSD and masking. Okay. So we're going to start with productivity culture, RSD and masking. Okay. So we're going to start with productivity culture.

It doesn't lend itself well to you, does it? Society. No. For someone with ADHD, like the measure of being organized and being everywhere on time and holding down a steady job, nine to five, like it's not conducive to you having high self-esteem, I guess. Emma Poulson If that's the measuring stick we're using, I am still a massive failure. And I think this is really what I want to get across in this episode.

I don't feel like a failure anymore. I still fail epically in all of those ways. Jason Vale But I've let go of the shame and I've doubled down in some other areas. But yeah, even from school, having to focus eight until three, falling behind on homework, chatting in the back of class. You're labelled as a failure, as disruptive, as naughty from your earliest memories. That just kind of bleeds into real life. I think my most painful shame has always been about being messy, unable to be tidy, keep the place I'm living clean. So all the different places I've lived in my life, they've always been horrendous. There's a lot of societal judgment around that as well, isn't there? Again, like

it's expected. It's like this is a base, like the base level of being an adult is keeping your space clean. So if you're failing at that, it's really difficult to see any kind of value in yourself as a human being. And dare I say it, the built in sort of misogyny in the world might make that more difficult for a woman as well. The judgment. Women are meant to be amazing at cleaning and laundry. So when you're struggling, you're letting yourself down. You're also possibly letting your partner down.

For the record guys, she is not good at cleaning or laundry. I don't know whether that would be a surprise to anyone. I don't think they're going to be surprised. But yeah, that productivity culture where everyone's crushing it, cleaning, being organized, paying bills, holding down a steady job, not meant for us. Got to stop using that as our measuring stick because we're going to feel awful. The next thing is RSD. So because we are not meeting the neurotypical standard and we're also really sensitive to rejection and very self-critical, that's just a horrible melting pot. So we're like rejecting ourselves on a core level because we're having

these struggles. A flat I used to live in many years ago in London, I lived in a basement flat. It was a horrible time. I was really struggling with depression, mental health, alcohol, all that kind of stuff. But my flat was an absolute pigsty. Worst of the worst, as I'm sure you can imagine. I didn't wash any of my clothes. I'd go maybe every six months to the laundrette with bags and bags. Do it all at once. Bless you. It's just horrible, babe.

And sometimes, a couple of times, someone would turn up. A friend would turn up at my door. Oh, hi, I was in the area. I remember once someone turned up and just said, oh, hi, I was in the area. I remember once someone turned up and just said, oh hi, I'm so sorry, I'm in the area, can I use the loo? And I was like, no, you can't come in. They're like, please. I was like, no, you can't come in. They were like, please. And I eventually had to let them in, but they saw how disgusting and horrible I was living and just the shame. I still get panicky thinking about that day now.

Even like now, right? Although you don't feel shame now and you can really integrate it into your life, still if people are coming around, you will want it to be present. I don't know whether that's just a normal human thing though. I think that's quite normal. I just think it's a little bit spicier with me. I'm so used to feeling like I'm going to be rejected or judged and like the way I live is not right or not enough that the anxiety gets me cleaning. And none of it will be founded, right? I guess no friend has ever come over and said, this

is disgusting, I never want to see you again. That never actually happened. It was just the fear of, or did that happen? Oh my God. I had one friend, Alyssa. Yeah. I've met an Alyssa. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet she helped you tidy or something. No, well kind of. So I'd found a spider in my bedroom. Yep. And I was quite scared of spiders so I didn't want to be in my bedroom. So I moved my mattress

into my living room and I'd been there for months. Wow. So I was living in my living room, absolute pigsty. The bedroom was just closed all over the floor. And we'd gone out for a night out and she ended up staying at mine. So we'd gone out and we got quite drunk. So we walked in and I was like, oh, we're sleeping in the living room. She was like, what? I was like, oh, there was a spider in there. So I don't sleep in. It's just, we don't go in there. I don't sleep in there anymore. She was like, this is ridiculous. Come on. She went and she grabbed my bed and like marched it through and moved me back in. So, so not judgmental at all. In fact, just very sensible human being.

How did you, how were you with the spider? Were you okay? It'd been months. It had gone. It was probably in the room you were sleeping in. Yeah. I think it was just, I didn't have the energy to move it back. So yeah. And then the third thing, so you've got productivity culture, RSD, and there's also masking slash trying. You honestly just believe that if you keep trying, you'll eventually become someone that's clean and organized and doesn't struggle with time. And that just doesn't work, does it? It's actually the opposite we found with you.

More acceptance. That's it. The more you try and fix yourself, the more broken you appear. It's a little bit strange. But so many ADHDers, they could be 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, we get them all on our page. Often say I felt broken my entire life, or I've been trying to fix myself my entire life. And that was me. I would hide my struggles away. I wouldn't tell anyone. I was just like, I'm going to fix this. This won't happen again. I'll never be late. Never lose my passport. I'm getting on top of the washing. You just set yourself up for constant failure. You make these promises. You have to break them because you can't do it. You can't do it. You can't like hate yourself into being neurotypical. I wish you could because I would have done it.

typical, I wish you could because I would have done it. I think that there's a real like difference between shame that which you have felt in the past and all these things because you're not doing them. That translates into you fundamentally believing that you are a bad person, right? Like the worst, bad, adult, horrible, useless person. Yeah. And potentially a healthier way to look at it is that you are a good person that maybe occasionally does bad things or is struggling with certain things. Yeah, it's identity versus behaviour. And it's that's so helpful. I think that's like a Brenny Brown thing. It's identity versus behavior. And that's so helpful. I think that's like a Brenny Brown thing

that shame is I'm a bad person, guilt is did a bad thing or I struggled with something. Because I've got a bit of a relationship with shame, but there's probably only one thing that I really struggled with feeling shameful about, which was my gambling addiction. And even that now, I don't feel that. I feel that I'm a good person, but I just got caught up in the wrong thing.

But I think at the time when I was spinning slots, spending all my savings and borrowing money to do it and lying and stuff like that. It was like, oh, I made bad, I'm just a bad person. But now I don't feel like that. It took some meetings and some therapy and stuff to feel like that. But everything else in life, I don't think I feel like a bad person. I don't struggle with shame. You don't, do you?

Which I am so envious of and also really happy, but you don't. You'll never ever go inwards on yourself and say, I'm horrible, I'm useless. You don't attack yourself. No, and there's some stuff like, you know, we don't need to go as heavy as gambling, but there's stuff that I maybe could or that you potentially would. So like my reading, I think is something I find quite funny. But I can find it quite embarrassing at times. But because I'm an author that can barely read. So it doesn't really make sense.

But I quite matter of fact now, I don't mind telling it, I struggle with reading, you're going to have to be patient with me. If you want the audio book, we're going to have to sit here for days. That's the gig. I'm talented in other things. I'm good with numbers. But I don't, but that could be translated to like, what a disgrace, you're an author, you can't even read what you're doing, you're an imposter, all that sort of stuff.

That would be me. Going back to when you're young, obviously you played golf. If you lost a golf game when you were 12 or 13, because you were playing at quite a high level. Would there be shame then? Or have you always been quite pragmatic? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't feel, no. I'd be like the normal human emotion of like gutted or like shit, I lost that. Better luck next time type thing. Better get on the driving range to practice, but nothing. No, nothing. There must be a piece of this then that relates to ADHD in some way.

The sensitivity, the overthinking, the RSD that really makes my struggles make me want to punish myself. I would guess at the amount of criticism that you have historically received versus what maybe I have historically received. So you become so used to being criticized, eye rolled, judged, told off, seen as bad. That you actually absorb that you are and then you're just fighting your whole life to try and prove that you're not bad. So now we know that shame, that yucky thing is affecting loads of people with ADHD. I want to talk about some bad ways that we try and get rid of it and some really good practical ways.

Yeah, okay. Do you want to start with the bad? I'm going to start. I feel like you're going to be good at the bad. I'm very good at the bad. So I've got three things and we can just have a laugh about how real they are. Go on. For me. So the first one is avoidance and procrastination. Okay. So just ignore it and it all just won't become a thing.

Why clean the kitchen to do a bad job, to get overwhelmed, to be judged? May as well just not do it. Whatever it is, it's like we avoid and procrastinate so that we don't have to feel like we're failing. Cause if I'm not doing it yet, I'm not failing yet. How's that working out for you? Not well. doing it yet. I'm not failing yet. How's that working out for you? Not now.

I just, I don't, so you said cleaning the kitchen, one that really springs to mind, which you do now a bit. We've got some safety things in to prevent this happening, but it is about organizing your diary. So what will happen is you will directly communicate with someone, whether that be someone designing a piece of artwork or whatever, and they'll be like, cool, yeah, let's jump on a call to discuss. And it's at that point, it all breaks down and you're like, oh no, I don't know what I'm doing. And then you start ignoring, ignoring and procrastinating. And you'll get to a point where you're so wound up, like

you're so tying yourselves up in knots about it. And typically you'll be like, Bobby, I need a bit of help. And it's sorted in 10 seconds. But that's what springs to mind with the avoidance. The calendar. Honestly, I find it so difficult to make plans. You're just laughing. Sorry, it's that. And also the double booking things. How many times have you double booked like we're doing something and you've said, yeah, come round this day or I'll meet you on that day and you'll avoid it all the way up until the day that it's happening. It's like, I can't turn away from this anymore because I'm supposed to be in two places at once. Rip myself in half and wander. That's the shame. That's the shame showing. I'll double

book myself. I hate that part of my brain. I shouldn't say it because I know I'm meant to be all ADHD positive, but I hate that I can't run my calendar. I hate it. I'm constantly tying myself in knots, double booking. I'll double book, I won't realise, then I'll realise, then I'll think, oh my God, I need to let somebody down. I don't know how to say it because I don't want to be judged and I don't want to feel ashamed. I avoid it and then I make it a hundred times worse. Like I think avoiding the tough convo is making my life easier, but it's making it harder.

Just go in, deliver the bad news that's not even bad news. It's always fine. It's always fine. These are tough. Bad number one. So that's the bad way to deal with it. Number one is avoid it. Number two, hyper perfectionism. Hyper perfectionism? You've even added hyper, right? So not just perfectionism. And this shows up for me, unfortunately not in like cleaning or organizing, but in work. Yeah. I am so obsessive to an unhealthy level about being perfect. And the example that comes to my mind, I'm sure you'll have some funny ones, is when we were writing our second book, Small Talk, and it was the first time I was working with an editor. And she had

specifically told me to kind of just write everything and like, it can be quite messy and then I'll edit and then I'll pass it back. It was meant to be this collaborative process and I couldn't do it. I couldn't send the first pages, the messy ideas. I had to try and write a perfect chapter. And you were sort of watching me going, you don't need to do this. But I couldn't be seen to not be sending something that was great. I didn't want to be judged for bad spelling or bad sentence structure. So I really missed the chance to like collaborate because I forced myself to do it alone. Yeah, okay. I mean, I've got a bit of a different view with this one. And you know, hyper perfectionism,

I'm just going to say perfectionism. It is bad in that it won't be great for your mental health. But as your like partner in the business world, I don't necessarily see it as a as a bad thing, right? So even little like everything to do with social media and branding and stuff like that needs to be perfect. And you've got a really good eye for it. So, even when it comes to me posting a story, I'll come to you and be like, is that where the text should be? I don't know what color to do this.

And you'll just like do it. You'll be like, do it. So all I would argue is you're only hyper perfectionist on the things that you're really good at. Like, I don't see it, like you said, in the laundry pile and I don't see it cleaning and I don't see it with accounts and finance and maths and stuff. That's made me think actually, because there is a difference between perfectionism and striving for excellence. And perfectionism is like when you actually don't get something done because it will never be perfect. And excellence is when you push yourself to your own particular level of excellence. It might

not be someone else's. But maybe actually I am more like pushing for excellence in some areas. I think you've grown into that though. If I think back to your first EP, the Good Die Young EP, like your perfectionism you like hated it by the end. I wanted to throw it away. You were like I don't want to do it anymore it's not perfect, this isn't very good. So you've grown in this area I think. So actually maybe you have to push through, release the work that you hate. Yeah. But yeah, that's number two. And then number three, what it looks like in bad ways of trying to manage shame is over-apologizing

for everything. Oh, gosh, you do this still, now. Literally somebody could bump into me and like break my bone and I'd be like, oh, sorry. I apologize for everything this morning. Yeah. We are deciding to go for breakfast. We decide together that we want to go to our favorite little place with a dog walk thing. And then we get in the car and there's bad traffic.

I was in a bad mood. Yeah, that's okay. It was bad traffic. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so traffic. I was in a bad mood. Yeah, that's okay. It was bad traffic. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Like it's my fault that there's bad traffic. And you actually had to say, babe, we decided together this isn't your fault. But in my body, I was starting to feel like I've messed up.

I've done this to us. That's the shame spiral. Yeah. It still gets me. You'll apologize more than once as well. Like, you know, you're human, I'm human, you'll mess up, you'll upset me very occasionally. And I'll say, that's upset me. You'll say, I'm sorry. I'll be like, thanks for saying that. No problem. It's

okay. And then you'll say, I'm sorry, half an hour later, an hour later, then two hours later. then you'll say, I'm sorry, half an hour later, an hour later, then two hours later. It overcomes you, doesn't it? The guilt or shame or whatever it is. The shame. I don't believe I've done enough self-punishment and acknowledgement that I'm going to be let off the hook when in a healthy relationship at one sincere apology. Well, I'll say sorry and then never talk about it again. Yeah, that's how it's meant to be though. It also comes up in work. If somebody messes up with me at work, I will reply going,

hey, really sorry, but I've noticed this. Or really sorry, but why am I apologising for your mistake? I'm already apologising for mine. I think you are getting better at this though. Like it's been a slog, but I think you are. I think you put it in a lovely way. And you said like you want to be more of an asshole like me, I think you said. Is that lovely?

I want to be more of an asshole. But like more blunt and all direct. Well, my whole life I've tried to be the nicest person ever in an attempt to not be rejected or shamed or disliked because I feel so dislikable at my core. I feel like I have to be nice. When you try and be the nicest person ever, you will end up letting people down, not being authentic. You'll end up all the natural anger that you do feel, where does that go inside your body? It will make you sick and resentful and passive aggressive. So actually, nobody should aim to be the nicest person ever. Being nice is so overrated,

we should aspire to be assholes like you. You you say that you laugh. I text my manager something nice the other day. I can't remember what it was. And he actually replied to me, what's going on with you? You're being way too nice. And I went, you'll get it a couple of times a year. I'll be nice. Other than that, it's just worked. Maybe there's a middle ground between me and you. Like on average, we're probably one well adjusted person. Okay, so avoiding it, being perfectionistic and over apologizing, they aren't the good ways to deal with shame. So what are the good ways? So I don't profess to be an expert. And actually, some of the things that I'm going to say, I think that you've shown

some growth in actually. So some of this is inspired by you after 49 million hours of therapy. But rewriting the narrative, like reframing things, I think, has really helped you. So you would, you used to label yourself as being really lazy. Whereas now you can lean into labeling yourself as somebody who really struggles with this. So good. So rather than lazy, useless, awful, it might be struggling in need of help, not sure what to do. Or having an ADHD flare up. The ADHD is getting me if I'm losing something. It's using a kinder language to yourself. I love it. What did you call it? Relabelling.

Rewriting the narrative. Rewriting the narrative. Yeah, for my whole life, I was lazy, horrible, flaky, all those words that have such negative connotations. And that's the importance, by the way, of the ADHD label. No, I don't want to label my kids or I don't want to have a label. Trust me, everyone with ADHD is labeling themselves anyway. There's lazy useless losers. It's better to have ADHD, which although yes, there might be some stigma, it's nowhere near as shaming to me as lazy, horrible, bad adult.

This starts really small. I remember our talks that we did and the audience that we asked were always calling themselves lazy, useless, so. But it starts really small. Like if you forget something, just the, just the internal narrative that you're like, oh, I'm such an idiot, it's just starting to change that. Yeah. Well, also just to notice it, if you call yourself an idiot, actually say like, no, like be quiet, don't call me that. So love that one.

Um, and it's understanding that you're not broken. So this in the context of, you know, societal expectations, you need to do this, that and the other, cross this T, dot this I to be successful. It's rewriting that, that you're not, you're not broken because you can't do all of these things. Because actually, if you start to try and fix something because you believe that you're broken, it'll get worse. You'll put pressure on yourself and you'll start making things worse. That's where the shame comes from. So you think that you're broken, you try and fix it. I'm going to set 10 alarms, I'm going to have this. I'm never going to lose anything. It then happens again, because you have a neurodevelopmental condition. Then you feel evil. It's like you've double let yourself down. Then you try again,

triple, quadruple, and it gets worse and worse and worse. And you never let yourself off the hook. And you never say, maybe I'm struggling with something. You just say, wow, I'm the worst person alive. So it's about, and actually it's what you said earlier about me trying to fix it, made it worse. Accepting it doesn't get rid of it. Nothing gets rid of it, but it makes it better. I have ADHD. I'm going to struggle with memory, directions, time, organisation. I'm going to, it's on the table. And the minute that's looked at as part of the puzzle, I don't have to hide it or mask it or feel ashamed of it. Because I'm less stressed, and we know that stress makes ADHD symptoms worse, it does happen less often. Like I lose my wallet less often now it's all on the table and we talk about it rather than in the early days.

I was losing it all the time even though I was desperately trying not to. Yeah. And this is a bit of reframing as well because you actually say you now need loving, you need support rather than I need fixing because like you said, a lot of time with fixing, you won't share the vulnerabilities and you'll try and do it yourself and you'll mess it up. So I've got another two to add to that if you don't mind. Wow, greedy. So first of all, it surrounds yourself with nice people. What are you doing with me then?

Oh, you're the nicest person to me. But I sometimes feel like so much of this is about productivity, culture, RSD. Also, who you surround yourself with. If people are eye rolling, hating on you, leaving you out judging you, you are going to feel more ashamed. If you've got people that get how you work, that are kind and accepting, you're going to feel more ashamed. If you've got people that get how you work, that are kind and accepting, you're going to feel loads better. Yeah. So don't surround yourself with arseholes. And then the last one, and I think this has been so transformative in my life

for dealing with shame, is rather than focusing all of your efforts on the things that are really difficult for you. So for me, cleaning, timekeeping, organisation admin, double down on the things you are good at. For me, creativity. So in my life that has really been music or things like this, double down. Because you're never ever going to fix ADHD with hard work. If you put hard work on your creativity, you're going to have the best time and you're going to build self-esteem. Every win I have in music builds my self-esteem that I'm not this useless lazy person. I just have a different skill set. So stop trying so hard to fix what isn't broken. Double down on the things that you're already a bit naturally gifted at.

That feels like a pretty good place to end. It does. Guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode. If you liked it, follow and leave a review and all that jazz. And if you didn't like it, just move on by. Just move on by. Enjoy. We'll see some of you next week.