Lateral with Tom Scott - 119: A horse/deer dilemma

Episode Date: January 17, 2025

Julian O’Shea, Dani Siller and Bill Sunderland face questions about fallen food, accidental advertising and cricketing circumstances. LATERAL is a comedy panel game podcast about weird questions with wonderful answers, hosted by Tom Scott. For business enquiries, contestant appearances or question submissions, visit https://lateralcast.com. HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Mike Sylvia, Rickard Dybeck, Paige, Martijn Pennings, Kay, Kristin, Allison Macrae. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott. © Pad 26 Limited (https://www.pad26.com) / Labyrinth Games Ltd. 2025. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In cricket, how might a batsman be unfortunate enough to convert an Audi into an Olympic? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. If a tree falls in a forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound? More importantly, does the forest sue for property damage? And if the lawyer takes their case, will they work pro-Bowno? No, try that one again. That doesn't make any sense. Here's the thing. There is a note after that in my script from producer David that just says in brackets, I don't think this works. I was going to say guests will groan at this point.

Ready to branch out into new directions, today we have the return of the All Australian special, and we start today with the folks from Escape This Podcast. Bill Sunderland, Dani Seller, welcome back to the show. Which one of you wants to plug the podcast first? Ozzy, Ozzy, Ozzy! Oi, oi, oi. There we go. Dani, why don't you go?

Oh, I just wanted to advertise our new foliage lawyer business and say that, Tom, we're available for this case. If you need injunctive relief. It's the leaf part. It's the leaf part. Right. So we have two shows, by the way. We have escaped the people, we've got Escape This Podcast, we've got Solve This Murder, we make a lot of puzzles and mysteries, and we solve

a bunch of them ourselves and we have a lot of guests on to solve them as well. That is our general schtick in life. Danny, you intimated a while back, there may be something new coming. And given this episode is coming out a few weeks after we record it, is there anything coming up for the Escape This Podcast crew? It's entirely possible that it's out right now, which is that the other project that we've spent the last year working on is the game Rise of the Golden Idol,

a sequel to an amazing game that we didn't work on, Case of the Golden Idol. Is this podcast, video game, board game? This is a video game. Real life video game. We've never done that before, but it's been going well and we're super excited. Or I am. You can tell that I am. My description of the game for anyone who hasn't played the original is it is a series of murder mysteries and or general mysteries solved through mad libs. It's a lot of blank, blank to the blank with the blank, and then he blanked the blank, and you've got to find the words and fill them in and solve puzzles and mysteries, and tell a story as you do it.

We're really proud of how it's come around, and we're really happy to be part of the writing and development team for it. That should be out now, soon? It's likely out right now. If this episode is out after November of 2024. Oh, definitely, yep. All fingers crossed this game is out now. I appreciate the caveat you put on that.

You never know. What was the name of that one more time? Might as well plug it while you can. The Rise of the Golden Idol. Well, very best of luck to you with that and on the show today. You are joined by the other returning Australian from the last Aussie special that we had, Julian O'Shea, YouTuber talking about city design and Melbourne.

How are you doing? I'm doing great. Great to be here. Last time you were on the show, the three of you managed to solve a lot of questions very quickly. How do you feel about coming back and doing one more episode? Mate, here's the secret. What you do is you become a barnacle and you just join on to

other smart people and you just ride the glory. Yes, all three of us did very well. Yes, all three of us did a great job. Given that Bill and Danny plugged their stuff as well, Julian, what are you working on right now that's going to be out by the time this show comes out? I've been working also for the last year on a series called Design Revolution, which has been a YouTube-funded series which is coming out. It's a lot of explainers, a lot of silly designs and builds. I, for example, do a 360-degree scan of myself and turn me into a

wacky, waving, arm-inflatable tube man, and all kinds of other silly, silly things. So, Julian O'Shea on YouTube. Well, good luck to all three of you on the show, although given the performance last time, I'm not going to wish you too much luck because I would like this show to be longer than 20 minutes. So, very best of luck to all of you. Oh, you. I do have the remaining tree section of my introduction to read now, so do brace yourselves. Here's a question for you. Why don't trees like difficult riddles? It stumps them. They all get stumped.

Congratulations, Bill. That is a better answer than what's on my card. I'm not going to read this. Let us head for the leafy pastures of question one. This question has been sent in by Kay. Thank you very much. In 2020, a restaurant chain displayed pictures of their food covered in mould. As a result, sales actually went up. Why? I'll say that again. In 2020, a restaurant chain displayed pictures of their food covered in mould. As a result, sales actually went up. Why? Now, I did see an invention which was a sandwich ziplock bag, right? And it had mould printed on the outside. So what you would do is you'd put your sandwich inside, leave it in the

lunch break room and no one is stealing your sandwich. That's perfect. And so a restaurant can do this. They give you your bowl of food and then put a layer of plastic that looks like mould on top so that if you go to the bathroom, the other people at your table won't steal it. Yeah, or if you do take away that home, those cheeky roommates of yours are not getting their hand on your funky pad tie.

I apologise for telling this story, but it is one of the most disgusting but logical things I've seen. The kid was like a teenager. He's like 14 or 15, he could get away with this. He did not want anyone stealing any of his chips and nachos. So he just spat slightly into the nacho cheese as he went off to the bathroom. Because his theory was, it's all going in my mouth anyway. And no one else would try that. But at the same time, that managed to make everyone...

This was a bowling alley. This is how much this has burned into my memory. Everyone else at the bowling lane just got, ugh, just a little, and none of us could rationally work out why. Just some primal disgust response to that. Yeah. It's such a teenager kind of attitude. I can just imagine having brothers nearby and just licking every single chip. Just making full of attitude. I can just imagine like having brothers nearby and just looking every single chip, you know, just making full eye contact. Just like, if this bothers me, but it bothers you more. Right. I'm not a big mold eater, but there are some things that are supposed to have mold on them.

Like cheese restaurant? Cheese restaurant? Oh yeah. Yeah. It's like Cheesecake Factory, but with a blue cheese cheesecake. Oh, Oh no. They use blue cheese ice cream on MasterChef sometimes when they're buying food. I apologise to everyone who's listening to this show while eating. This was a rough first question if you were sitting down for dinner at this point. And on to the maggot question.

Oh no. I reckon Tom's being cheeky about the word mold here. I, because I can imagine if he said it is like, and then they added a mossy fungus to the whole thing. But what they really mean is they just put mushrooms on it. Is there, is there, is there a mold, which is actually just a food item that you can, yeah, cause I was thinking like, for people, and I think this is fairly big in the UK and Australia as a meat alternative, other than the Beyond, there's corn or quorn if you want to pronounce the U in it. And that isn't a mold, that's a fungus, but it's a mushroom thing, but it's

like grown in a vat. It's a mycoprotein. It's a mycoprotein and that is a big fungal sort of mass that grows, and it's delicious. Everybody should eat this fungal mass. Is it technically a mould? But I don't think it's technically a mould. But if it is, then is that it? Was it corn? Was it corn brand? In this case, I am not being cheeky about the word mould. You are picturing exactly

the right thing. This is a pretty gross close-up photo of the restaurant's food covered in mould. I want to say I remember this. Oh! I got it. Can you now say that you remember this? I'm pretty sure this was an advertising campaign. I'm gonna say, like, maybe it was a Hungry Jax slash Burger King for all the people who live in the Burger

King world. Oh, well done on not just identifying the restaurant, but also translating it out of Australia, where Burger King could not get the local trademark. Yeah, we already had a Burger King. No one's ever eaten there, but we've all eaten Hungry Jacks. Where they went, hey, we have no preservatives, here's a photo of our burger after five days on a shelf, and it's all mouldy and terrible. That was their advertising campaign.

It's natural food. It goes off. Yes, your memory is spot on. Congratulations. This was a campaign by advertising agency Ingo Stockholm called the Mouldy Whopper for Burger King slash Hungry Jacks. And the tagline was, the beauty of no artificial preservatives. And they say that it increased sales by 4%.

Now, whether you want to trust an advertising agency's claims on how effective their advertising is, I don't know. Have you ever heard of the McFossil? Ooh. I don't think so. It was a McRib, but they were like, hey, you know one of those frozen wooly mammoths that we found? We're going to resurrect it.

We're going to turn into a McRib. Flintstone style, yeah. Flintstone style! No, this is a McDonald's burger bought in 1995 that is still intact and mould-free. Oh! Oh, all right. 1995 that is still intact and mould-free. Oh! Alright. Whether something has been done to that and its environment, we don't know. But that was particularly what Burger King were pushing back against.

Julian, we will go over to you for the next question. This question's been sent in by Martijn Pennings. Etienne from Auckland met a total stranger, Ang Angel Sierra, a chef from Spain on Reddit. Why did Etienne convince Angel to drop some food on the ground at a specific time? I'll say that again. Etienne from Auckland met a total stranger, Angel Sierra, a chef from Spain on Reddit. Why did Etienne convince Angel to drop some food on the ground at a specific time? Stepping back from this one, I have seen a couple of folks try this over the years. Oh, why?

Ugh, that's just you and me. What are we going to do? Alright, Danny. Put our chef hats on. Engel Sierra does not sound like a real name. I am Engel Sierra, the Angel of the Mountains. Right, okay, I guess. My first thought is this chef friend, having some issues with their health inspectors being overly picky about things that look, any reasonable restaurant wouldn't actually care that much

about. And so this New Zealander gave them the tip of, no, no, no. So what you do is when the health inspector comes in, you deliberately drop a bit of food on the ground so that they can see you make a big deal of cleaning it up. And so they will acknowledge it. It's like when you do a driving test and you've got to really exaggerate your shoulder checks. Yeah, the health inspector walks in and before you turn around, you drop a piece of food and you go, what the hell? This is the first time this has ever happened in 25 years. No one's ever dropped a piece of food on the ground. Sorry, sir. I'll be with you soon. Just sit back. What have you

done? You're fired. No one could ever be this dirty in my kitchen. Is that it? You are not quite correct. I'll be honest, you are not. That's not it. That's not it. I can't tell from your tone what level of hot or cold we should be working with here. Maybe the other side. Okay. Okay. So let me just try and recount what the situation here is. A New Zealander meets... Did we decide a Spaniard? Did I make that up because I heard the names? A little Spanish chef. meets, did we decide a Spaniard? Did I make that up? Cause I heard the name's a little Spanish chef, Spanish chef. Okay. New Zealand and meets a Spanish chef and says, Hey, can

you drop a piece of food on the floor for me? Did it say floor? It just said, drop a piece of food somewhere on the ground, drop some food on the ground for me. And, and we presumably the chef said yes. Otherwise the story would be quite boring. Uh, maybe they did do it. Yeah. Okay. So drops him is did. Could it be? Here's my pitch Danny, after your ridiculous pitch. Here's my really awesome one. The New Zealander, like all New Zealanders, fun fact, is a skydiver.

I wonder where that was going. And they were like, hey, I'm going to order some takeout, I'm going to order some takeaway, I'm going to order some whatever New Zealand is called takeaway. But can you deliver it to where I'm meant to land? So I can land and then grab the food out of your hands and eat a pad thai from this Thai Spanish chef. Wouldn't it be the skydiver who would have more fun dropping food on the ground? No, no, they're dropping TO the food.

But then why would the chef have to drop anything? Think about it, Billy, god! So you think it's a skydiving chef who drops the food and someone else is going to stand at the bottom and just be like, oh man, you know, I'm really hungry. I wish I had a burger right now. And they put their hand up and it falls into their hand. This whole thing is falling apart at the seams. You can't leave us alone together. Was that closer? There's fewer skydivers than you think involved in this question.

All right. All right. Now you said, you said ground, which makes me concerned that my in the kitchen visual is not right. And there's something more outdoorsy about this. Is that true? The location is important. Interesting. It was a hunter ordering door dash to bait a bear. Okay. Okay. So you meet a Spanish

chef? Meat is interesting because they were only talking on Reddit. Did they ever meet in person? I assume this was just a tip. I know what it is. Sorry. As soon as you mention Reddit, I know what it is. I know what it is. I know what it is. I know what it is. I've got it. I don't trust this one bit. No, legitimately. I thought they met. I was picturing strangers on a train. I'd forgotten the Reddit part. I thought they were on a journey together one day, but they met online.

I know what this is. I know so much that I want you to figure it out. Oh, come on! This is based... I'll give you a hint. Yeah, you give me a hint that's going to work for me. The connection between a New Zealander and a Spaniard is the same connection that we all have to Tom Scott. I mean, not quite as precisely.

Not exactly. It's not an Antipodean... all have to Tom Scott. I mean, not quite as precisely. Not exactly. Is it not? It's not an Antipodean? Oh, it absolutely is, but it definitely wouldn't work. Because I was thinking they would each put a piece of bread on the ground and make an Earth sandwich. If you thought that, Bill, you would be entirely correct. So to summarise, an Earth sandwich is the entire planet between two slices of bread

exactly on the other side of the globe. And yes, New Zealand is one of the few places on Earth that has land on the other side being Spain. Not true in the UK and Australia. Well, not exactly true. We got to be close. As a fun fact, I recently did a small, trivia lot of questions specifically about opposite points on the Earth,

and I got every question wrong. This is not a strong point of mine. There aren't that many points that this works for. So you'd think I'd have been able to rule them down quite quickly, wouldn't you? Yeah, because the Pacific Ocean takes up almost one half of the entire Earth's surface. If you look at the planet from the right angle, it just looks like a big wet ball with some land on the side. So there aren't that many places where it matches up, and there are even fewer that

you can reasonably get to. And then you've got the extra complexity of timing a piece of bread on the other side of the globe. Time zones, am I right? That's right. So the filling was 12,700 kilometers of globe. Delicious, delicious salt and iron. That's right. Now the concept of the Earth sandwich was invented by artist Zé Frank in 2006. And yeah, only around 15% of the Earth has land on the other side. So it's not that easy to

schedule your own Earth sandwich. How fun. Transapp presents a couple trying to beat the winter blues. We could try hot yoga. Mmm, too sweaty. We could go skating. Too icy. We could book a vacation.

Like somewhere hot. Yeah, with pools. And a spa. And endless snacks. Yes! Yes! Yes! With savings of up to 40% on Transat self-packages, it's easy to say, so long to winter. Visit Transat.com or contact your Marlin travel professional for details.

Conditions apply. Air Transat. Travel moves us. This question has been sent in by Kristen. In 2022, how did around 800,000 people from Maryland suddenly start promoting Philippine casinos all over America? I'll say that again. In 2022, how did around 800,000 people from Maryland suddenly start promoting Philippine casinos all over America? The fact that the question is how and not why is fascinating. It's got to be a word that matches. Maryland, they were talking about something else, but that happens to also be the name of Philippine casinos or something. Annapolis is Spanish

for casino. When they were talking about Annapolis, they were just really talking about casinos in the Philippines. Sure, sure. I assume it's Taylor Swift Manila. That is excellent trivia knowledge. I'm not sure I could have named a single city in Maryland. Oh, the trick is it's a fun little bit because it's Mary Land with Anna City. Like Annapolis, Mary Land. It's an easy way to remember that the capital of Maryland is Annapolis. They were not doing this on purpose. There wasn't a meeting, there wasn't a gathering. We're like, you know what we should do today? We need a hobby. All 799,999 of us plus me.

Do you know what we should do? Admin. I reckon. Round it out. I reckon. Let's start promoting Philippine. There was an error. There was a mistake. It's something digital. They were not doing it manually. they were not yard signs, they were not speeches. Some hashtag that's run on in a strange way. A domain that they were sharing for something else suddenly took a spin, either maliciously, accidentally, or a big fat typo is somewhere along the way. Julian, you have identified some of the mechanism.

It was a domain name that had expired. Oh, interesting. So what do we know about Baltimore? We've got Baltimore. That's Baltimore, that's a Maryland city, good point. Yes, it's got a touch of Washington, DC. That's a lot of people. Like, so it must be a big source. Yeah.

That sounds like a town, right? That sounds like the population of a town. Of course it is, yeah, I reckon. Right? 800,000. I don't think they're spread out. I think they live in Philippine Casino, Maryland. The domain of cityname.org suddenly went to... America also likes their sports teams. Maryland has some of those. The Maryland badges. I has some of those. The Maryland Badgers. I have heard of sports. The Orioles, the Ravens, those sorts of things.

There's a surprising amount of Maryland knowledge going on here. All of it relevant. Oh, I've got one. Maryland is in the United States of America. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down, slow down. We're all contributing, I guess, is what we're saying. Okay, now what do we know about Philippines casinos? States of America. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down, slow down. So we're all contributing, I guess is what they're saying. Okay, now what do we know about Philippines casinos? But bear in mind, the people from Maryland would have been promoting the Philippine casinos

all over America. Oh, all over America. Oh, I've got an idea, I've got an idea. Yeah, go for it. Number plates. They were driving around on number plates with an expired domain. Oh, so, oh, that's brilliant! Wait, number plates have domains on them?

Yeah, in Maryland they do. Yeah, but if you go there, watch out. They're famous for it, those bloody Marylanders. 2012, ten years earlier, was the 200th anniversary of the Star-Spangled Banner, the American anthem. It was written in Maryland by Francis Scott Key, and there was a special edition license plate that you could get if you happened to renew your plates that year. And it featured on it a US flag, bombs bursting in air, and starspangled200.org. Oh.

But after the celebrations were done, they just sort of let it lapse, they let it slide. It feels a bit spammy to start with, to be honest. StarSpangled200. Yeah, I'm not going to that website. They kept the domain running for ten years, and then someone let it expire, and all those plates are still out there. To be fair, there are a lot of Sydneysiders who still have Sydney Olympics on their number plates, because they said towards 2000 on them.

At least I assume that that was based on the Olympics and not just WU Millennium. I'm sure it was probably WU Millennium, to be honest. Yeah, the future's coming. There goes the future. The future's back there! So yes, 800,000 drivers roughly had those license plates at the time when the domain expired. The domain does now point back to the website of the Maryland government. Someone decided to bring it back. Aww. Dani, over to you for the next question.

Alright. This question has been sent in by Paige, thank you so much. In 2015, RM and V looked out to see a black ocean appear suddenly in front of them and began to worry that their career might be over. Why? One more time. In 2015, RM and V looked out to see a black ocean appear suddenly in front of them and began to worry if their career might be over. Why? Such good question reading! You definitely should hope to host a mystery podcast of some sort. Seriously, that voice. R, M and V. Sometimes these lateral questions get real lateral.

Yeah, I assume that if we had the full names there, we would be able to work this out in an instant. Just for clarity's sake, because I realise it could be a little unclear when you're just hearing this, RM is not—that is one figure in this question. It's not R, M, and V. It is one person, RM, and other person, V. Cool. Seeing an ocean suddenly, that's a bad day for a lot of people at work, I reckon. Like imagine being a childcare worker.

You open the door and the ocean's there, you know? Like, oh, I think there's a lot of jobs where this is a bad day. A black ocean as well, which sounds poetic. Yes, black ocean indeed. Okay, I've got the first pitch. We can discuss this and see if it's right. We probably don't need to move on. I think it's probably correct.

The RM is obviously boot manufacturer, RM Williams. And it was like, what are we gonna do with all this? Every one of the Aussies, it just thought RM Williams, obviously. It's a very niche reference. And it's like, what are we gonna do with all this leftover shoe polish that I've got? It's like, we'll dump it into the ocean

and no one will know. And it turned the whole thing black. And everyone went, RM? and a random person called V, what have you done? And their careers were over. Are we good? Are we happy with that one? All done. Wrap it up. For those that aren't from Australia, we have a niche shoe brand in this country called RM Williams. So there you go. Honestly, every Aussie brain that heard that question thought RM. There's only one thing that follows.

V is interesting because you would think, right, RM, you're like, maybe it's a person that we would all know whose name is, you know, Ronald Majors. Great. Everyone knows him. Stay with that black ocean guy. But V is not a full person's name. So is this a character? Is it like, are these characters that we might recognise or know? It feels like this is fictional or poetic or there's some kind of layer of unreality to this. Yeah, it's not fiction. These are real people, but there's a little bit of that feel of persona,

I suppose, to these names that we're going with. Is the V stand for Valdez? I have no idea what the V stands for. I personally know them as V. Oh, interesting. Because I was thinking next on Valdez, I think it's like some kind of oil spill. I think I've got that right.

I think that's an appropriate fact. And they looked out to see Black Ocean, they were like, Oh, no, that's bad. No, thankfully. They were in the don't spill oil in the ocean business. That was their job. That's your one job. Yes. No, not that kind of grim, thankfully.

V for Vendetta. That's a guy called V. He's got knives and a mask. We're in one of those realms that has a lot, a very niche, hugely dedicated fan base. Doctor V, the sequel to Doctor Who. While they are in our respective countries, a little more elsewhere. This is K-pop. It is K-pop.

Okay. Oh! They saw a Blackpink Ocean. How did I not get those as K-pop. Okay. Oh! They saw a Blackpink Ocean. How did I not get those as K-pop names? I know those as K-pop. Damn it. Alright, yes. That's...

Is Black Ocean capital B, capital O? It is not. It is in inverted commas, but it is not capitalised. That's the name of Blackpink fans, and they thought our career is over because we're here doing a concert and everyone's here just cheering for Blackpink. I'm so, this is the extent of my knowledge. I've got BTS, I've got Blackpink, I'm done. You are getting very warm with this sort of thing now. R.M. and V are two K-poppers. They come out to do a show during a multi-lineup thing.

They were meant to be the headline act. They see Black Ocean and realize we are no longer the number one group. We're on the way down. Ange 1 And what is Black Ocean in that story? Luke 10 The fans. The fans wearing all black for the different K-pop group. Ange 1 Ooh, it's not about them wearing black for another K-pop group, but you are extremely warm. Black Ocean is its own K-pop group who was already on the stage and went, uh, guys.

Is this just like a weird K-pop fandom thing that people turn up wearing black as like a something is wrong, you have made a mistake? It's not about wearing black, but a little bit. This can be a showing disapproval. You're in the right region, so yeah. Big black signs that they hold? It's not about wearing black, but a little bit. This can be a showing disapproval. You're in the right region, so yeah. Big, like, big black signs that they hold? Not big black signs. It's more about absence of something.

Oh, there just isn't a fan group there. There's just no one outside there. Or they didn't light their phones. You're basically there. Light up things, like light up sticks, possibly foes, things like that. Things that would glow and that you would show your support of the band to show, I'm in the audience, I'm going to be seen.

There's just not that. And if they want to frown upon a band member or say, no, I like this other band better, complete darkness. Wow. And it's as if the band is performing to nobody and it terrifies them. And this is not the most uncommon thing in the world. It's happened a few times to some pretty big bands, R, M and V, members of BTS. What did BTS do to get a Black Ocean? It was just that they were fans of a different group, EXO. Or EXO. And, yep, they went,

oh, BTS is performing, this is not my band. Like I said, these fans, they are big fans. Yeah. So if you're listening to the show and not enjoying it, please show your disapproval by holding your phone up in whatever train you're riding on and just, you know, wave it around. Please, please don't do that.

Please, please don't. I. Please, please don't. I cannot imagine there ever being a K-pop style fandom for podcasts, but if there is, I want nothing to do with it. That's terrifying. So yeah, in K-pop culture, a black ocean is what happens if the audience turns off their lights in a unified show of displeasure. They've unionised. They're fans of unionized. This question was sent in by Alison McCray. Thank you, Alison.

In 207 BC, Zhao Gao brought a deer to court and presented it to the emperor of China, claiming it was a horse. Doing so helped him gain enormous power. How? I'll say that one more time. In 207 BC, Zhao Gao brought a deer to court and presented it to the Emperor of China, claiming it was a horse. Doing so helped him gain enormous power. How? I have an opening pitch, but I'm going to hold off a little, just in case it's a good

pitch. Yeah, Danny, what's the animal you only bring to court to gain power? What's your go to? My anecdote is that recently I just on my phone decided to try to look up local laws because I don't know anything about the laws and I just wanted to say, hey, how do I find the laws of the place that I live? And the first page that I found seemed to suggest if I could read the legalese that at the very least in New South Wales, cattle includes horses. That's fun. I don't know if that's under some very specific trade laws I think it was in, but yeah, cattle just referred to any livestock or farm animal that you wanted to get on the road.

I wonder what the distribution of horses was at the time. Like, are they presenting it because people don't know what a horse is? Like, were horses not common? And they heard of horses from afar. And the person's like, I got one. I got one in the back. Do you want to see it? I'm the horse wrangler. My first pitch, which I will reveal because it's not good, so don't worry. But maybe it's great, but I think it's bad. I think you turn up and you go, guys, guys, hey, guys, guys, go with me on this. And you turn up to the to the emperor and you say, emperor, look at this horse. Doesn't isn't this a horse? And he goes, Oh, yes, I see that is a horse. What a mighty fine horse. And you go, gotcha, Emperor, you have bad vision. I'm going to become the royal optometrist. And I'm going to say, hire me on to make I don't know, you know what,

glasses? China probably did invent them in 207 BC. China invented everything in 207 BC. And they said I'm gonna look after your eyes, I'm gonna be the royal looker for you. And he was like, you got me because I thought it was a horse. That's my pitch. Of those pitches, Bill's is definitely closest, but not too close. There are some... look, if I describe this as court shenanigans, historians are going to be angry at me, and honestly it's a little bit insensitive, but yes, there are... there is something afoot here. The old emperor's new horse. That great tale. Yeah, exactly. So that was... Billy, your implication was that you would bring this deer to court and claim

it's a horse to say something about the Emperor. Was it more that he was trying to say something about himself, like he was trying to claim his own ignorance of horses? Maybe. I think this deer's a horse. Oh, you poor man. How do you expect me to go to war riding this? Yeah.

Well, but then why would you reward that with power? Zhao Gao was an advisor to the emperor with considerable influence even before he did this. Okay, okay. So he was already the emperor's advisor. He was already an advisor. And then he was like, hey man, dears of horses, give me more power. And he was like, you got me. Here you go. You can be the emperor now. There could be something in that, that you get power by how many horses you own. You get a

rank. And by saying, if we reclassify horses to include this guy, which I've got many of, I own many deer. Then if the emperor says, actually, they're considered horses, we'll allow that. And maybe they get a boost up the rankings. That'd be a bit of fun. It turned out their definition, their official definition of a horse was four-legged furry clippity-clop thing. And he was trying to make a point. That's the official definition. He was diogenesing. Behold a horse. No, no, he was trying to say, well, actually, if you look at the official rules for what my job is, you'll notice I'm co-emperor, technically.

Oh, I'm the keeper of the horse. And now I get to keep all the deer. Because of how we defined horse. Maybe a horse is whatever the emperor says is a horse, and that's the how it works. The emperor was not fooled. The emperor did not think, oh yes, that's absolutely a horse. It was just a clap clap well played. Well, Zhao Gao did not expect him to be fooled either. Okay. Bear in mind that this was in court.

This was not in private. Now just making sure we're all on the same page. When you say in court, you mean like in, like with courtiers, not with judges. Yes, yes. Not legal court. Yep, that makes more sense. Okay. We're holding court with all of it, and there are people around, there are nobles and things.

Yes. And that is really important. Okay. So he wants the emperor to be like, that's not a horse. And the emperor's like, hey, hey, tell me, hey, get up there and say a deer is a horse. And then I'll be like, no, it's not. And everyone will think I'm cool, because I can tell a deer from a horse and then I'll be like no it's not and everyone will think I'm cool because I can tell a deer from a horse so he's like what maybe he's working in tandem with the emperor to be like I'll set you up with the whole with the deer horse bit you knock him down with the that's a deer idiot. Again you're along the right lines there is definitely some I don't want to call them shenanigans that see that feels like trivialising this here, but there

is definitely a trick going on. I've got to get this out of the way. Are we eating these animals? We are not eating these animals. Okay. Did the emperor say that it is or isn't a horse? The emperor laughed at him and said, could you be wrong? You called a deer a horse. Oh no. I'm really back to it being a pun, but... It's not a horse. Oh no, is this… I'm really back to it being a pun, but… It's not a pun.

Is it some way of being like someone else had claimed something? And he was being like… to comment on that he did the whole horse bit, as a comment on somebody else's claims, where they'd said like, oh I'm giving you taxes in the form of this. And he was like, well that deer's not a horse, and that pile of sand isn't grain, idiot. No, but other members of the court definitely had mixed opinions on the situation. Was it about tax? It's always about tax. It's always about tax. Not about tax, but it is about power. It's about drive. It's about power. We stay hungry, we devour.

What if I tell you that shortly after this happened, Zhao Gao led a coup. There was a twist. Okay. This is why I was worried about calling this shenanigans, because there was a much deeper motive behind it. Sure, did he get support? Did he use this to garner, presumably, to garner support for his rebellion? You're very close there.

Not to garner support. Well, did he're very close there. Not to garner support. Did he have the support already and this was like, this was the go-word? This was like, hey guys, when the emperor says that Dears aren't horses, that's when we attack. You'll know. Look for the signs. Not quite. It's a little more clever than that. Bear in mind the folks in the room had mixed reactions. Oh, okay. Was it a way to see who was supporting him?

He could look at the crowd because he was the deer man and they and, ooh, if people wanted the deer to be horses, that meant that they were supporting him. I don't know why, but it was about seeing people's reactions. It was just a covert way to see who was voting which way. Well, you know, voting. Who was... Voting with their fists? know, voting. Who was voting with their fists. Yes, basically. He has walked in, he has claimed that this deer is a horse and the Emperor has laughed

at him. What might he be able to tell from the reactions of the people in the room? The ones who also laugh at him support the Emperor and the ones who look a bit like, hmm, I probably shouldn't laugh at this, you know, that they will be the ones who don't like the emperor and he can rely on their support for his revolution. — Yes. The other ministers and officials in the room generally sided with the emperor, but some agreed that it was a horse.

And those he was able to work out were the ones who would support the rebellion. It was a test of allegiance. Ooh, there you go. The reason that I was careful about the word shenanigans, I wish I'd been able to come up with something different, is that he later arranged for everyone who insisted that it was a deer to be killed. Yay. There is a Chinese phrase, apparently, point to deer and call it a horse, an expression for bluffing.

All right. So, yes, this was the coup led by Zhaohaogao, who, according to the stories, brought in a deer, said it was a horse, and used that to work out who was loyal to him. Bill over to you for the next question. Alright. This question has been sent in by Ricard Dijkbeck, a Dutch motorcyclist was captured in CCTV doing 137 km an hour, that's 85 miles per hour for all you mileheads at home, on the A28 at Staphorsd, Netherlands. Although the bike, its license plate and the motorcyclist were clearly photographed, they were acquitted of the speeding charge.

Why? One more time. A Dutch motorcyclist was captured in CCTV doing 137 kilometres an hour on the A28 at Staphorst, Netherlands. Although the bike, its license plate, and the motorcyclist were clearly photographed, they were acquitted of the speeding charge.

Why? I've got an idea. Go for it. Okay, we're talking the Netherlands, right? We are. It is a bicycle loving nation. It is a bicycle loving nation. He's a motorcyclist. We're on a highway. But I wonder if the bike is a pedal bike. And it's tagged and old mate is just pedaling his way up to 120kms. I was picturing something similar. Yeah. We called him a motorcyclist.

I pictured, well, just because he identifies as a motorcyclist, maybe he was beside the motorcycle and just running really fast. I was going to say it was just a really long downhill, but it's the Netherlands. No, it wasn't. No. There's a group that build these incredibly fast human powered vehicles and they go and race them in a place called Battle Mountain in Nevada where the air is really light. And these things are absolute bubble, bubble, like you're enclosed in it. And the top speed they're reaching is about these numbers, like just powered by their legs. It's an absolute... Okay. I stand by my response then.

But that means on a highway in the Netherlands. No, yeah, you'd have to close that down and get some good backwinds. You said acquitted. It's not like someone just threw the ticket out or something like this... It's not like someone went, oh, that's an obvious mistake. No, that's interesting. I wondered, I was just saying, oh, it's royalty, clearly. You're not going to charge royalty.

But, yeah, acquitted. Sounds like they got a little bit into the process. Yes, you are right. They did get a little bit into the process. Was it a ticket issued in error? Like, there's occasional times when police cars, ambulances, things like that will get a ticket because they are going at that speed and then later on someone has to say, oh, you had the blue lights going, it was fine.

But that will be figured out early. It's not like it would go into the process. Someone had to figure out that this was either legal or he got off on a technicality. Yes. It is not like it was a cop during a chase or they were the royals of the Netherlands. This person, in other circumstances, could easily have received a speeding ticket for doing the same sort of thing. Do you reckon the road was closed or impeded in some way that meant there was no one else around?

It was just this person? Quite famously, there was the guy in the UK during lockdown who, for legal reasons, absolutely did not set the record for going from one tip of the country to the other. The John O'Groats to Lanzand run has made it very clear in interviews he absolutely did not somehow get past all those speed cameras and genuinely did not do an average speed of three digits all the way while the roads were quiet. Just some very specific denials there. So do we reckon that he did it and got acquitted for some reason, or there was an error and

it didn't play out the way that it was... Yeah, that's why I mentioned that guy, because that went to court. Like, he was very nearly sent down for dangerous driving and was acquitted by a jury. Stupid answer. The bike was on a trailer. It was just the automated system picked up the license plate on the back of the... It should have gone to the driver, the bike was just on the back of it. The idea of who the driver is and who… all that sort of stuff is the right sort of technicalities to be thinking about. OK.

The bicycle and the cyclist or the motorcyclist, they're the only two people, or the only two things in the picture. OK, so it's not like he was in the sidecar and he'd quickly swap places with his dog or something. No, the dog was driving, not me! Weirdly, you're kind of getting even closer. Okay. There's no dog, though. I mean, it couldn't have been something like a legal road race,

because again, it wouldn't have got to that point. Or testing a road at high speed or anything like that, yeah. And they, yeah, they'd turn the cameras off for that. Is it some sort of claim that he wasn't in control of it, that he wasn't driving this motorcycle as it did the mistake? Yes, yeah. And how might that look in a photo? Because they have a photo.

They have, look, you're registered at 137. Here's a photo. The bike's in it. You're in it. you're doing 137. He'd just been hit by a car from behind and had been catapulted forwards. And that was a really bad timing on the speed camera. I mean, you're pretty close. There was no other car, but yes, it was about, it was pretty bad timing on the speed camera.

He get thrown off a train? Not thrown off a train? Right. What? Possible. How could he possibly claim that he was not riding or like driving the bike in that moment? He had his hands off the throttle. Not just his hands. Oh.

He was in the air? He was mildly airborne? He was thrown from the bike as the bike had basically mid crash. And in doing so, was able to successfully argue, at the time of the, you have no photo of me riding this bicycle. Sure the bike was going 137. Sure I was going at 137, but I was not on the bike and so you cannot charge, there's no photo of me driving this bicycle too fast.

So just to confirm, this is not legal advice that if you're getting snapped by a speed camera to just jump out your car at that moment and be like, don't touch it. Could be. It could be. I would say that this is Tom Scott's official legal advice. I'd feel safer with the sleepwalking defence or the sleep cycling defence. So yes, in the Netherlands a motorcyclist avoided a ticket because at the time the photo was taken he had fallen off the bike so he was not technically riding it. The last part of the show then, at the start, asked a question that was sent in by Mike Sylvia, thank you Mike.

In cricket, how might a batsman be unfortunate enough to convert an Audi into an Olympic? I am asking a cricket question to three Australians. Go for it. We must be experts. I mean, I've got it. Yeah, I'll let Danny answer, obviously. Oh, no, I think I do have it. I don't got it. Yeah, I'll let Danny answer, obviously. Oh, no, I think I do have it. I don't have it. Okay, okay. I don't have it, but let me talk

out what I've got. Audi, famous car expert as I am. Audi, I know, has a symbol that is four rings, all sort of interlocked with each other. Olympics, famously, five rings interlocked with each other. Cricket and over maybe six balls normally. I'm assuming that all of these things interweave. I don't know. I'm assuming they're at zero runs for the first five balls. Yep, you've got it. An Audi is getting four consecutive ducks in a row. So zeros, circles in a row is an Audi. If you get the fifth one, you have five zeros, five rings in a row, and it becomes an Olympic. Three players have recorded an Olympic in

test cricket in the entire history. It is not one of the achievements you want to get. It's not a good one. Now let's talk Don Bradman. Thank you very much to all our players. What's going on with you? Where can people find you? We will start with Julian. I'm making fun videos about my home city of Melbourne. You don't need to know anything about cricket to enjoy it. Julian O'Shea is my name.

That's the handle on all the places you watch. Curated internet content. Dani, tell us about the game. You can find it wherever you normally get your video games. I think it's on a whole bunch of consoles. Oh, it's everywhere. Search for the Golden Idol games. Case of the Golden Idol, Rise of the Golden Idol. And Bill, tell us about the podcasts. Yeah, go and check out Escape This Podcast if you'd like to hear people play through

audio escape rooms, including Tom Scott and producer for this show David Bodigum. And check out Solve This Murder if you want to hear some murder mystery whodunnits solved by either me or Danny, very poorly. And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at lateralcast.com, where you can also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at Lateral Cast, basically everywhere, and there are regular video highlights at youtube.com slash lateralcast. Thank you very much to Bill Sunderland. Thank you.

Danny Siller. Thank you. Julian O'Shea. Thanks mate. I've been Tom Scott and that's been Lateral.