Lateral with Tom Scott - 164: The unplayable record

Episode Date: November 28, 2025

'Map Men' Jay Foreman & Mark Cooper-Jones and Mithuna Yoganathan face questions about fort fights, cool cash and boda bodas. LATERAL is a comedy panel game podcast about weird questions with wonderful answers, hosted by Tom Scott. For business enquiries, contestant appearances or question submissions, visit https://lateralcast.com. HOST: Tom Scott. QUESTION PRODUCER: David Bodycombe. EDITED BY: Julie Hassett at The Podcast Studios, Dublin. MUSIC: Karl-Ola Kjellholm ('Private Detective'/'Agrumes', courtesy of epidemicsound.com). ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS: Ólafur Waage, Josh O., ChaoticNeutralCzech, Jesse Steele, Rudy Loethen, Daniel Peake. FORMAT: Pad 26 Limited/Labyrinth Games Ltd. EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS: David Bodycombe and Tom Scott. © Pad 26 Limited (https://www.pad26.com) / Labyrinth Games Ltd. 2025. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In East Africa, why is a motorcycle taxi called a boda boda? The answer to that at the end of the show. My name's Tom Scott, and this is Lateral. I didn't think this was going to be a live show today, but apparently it is, because I have accidentally plugged part of my desk into the mains. At least it means I can guarantee some electrifying conversation, so let's see what bright sparks we have joining us today, today first with his head in his hands. I wasn't going to go to you first, Jay Foreman,

but you reacted so badly to that sequence of electricity puns that I thought I was getting some resistance from you. So Jay Foreman, welcome back to the show. Thank you so much for having me back. Do you know what I'm ashamed about? I actually really enjoyed every one of those puns. That's shocking. It's myself I'm ashamed up. How are you doing, Jay? I'm doing really well, thank you. Thank you for having me back. You are here obviously as part of the Map Men, but I feel like I should ask what else is going on in your life right now, what else are you working on? Matman has become something that's sort of taking over everything,

because I don't know if I mentioned last time, but as well as the YouTube series, Mat Men, Mat Men has now become a book, so Mark and I have spent the last few months trying to make YouTube shows and trying to write a book at the same time with one hand on each typewriter. Which means I really should also introduce Mark Cooper Jones, who is clearly a lot more than the other half of the Mat Men, but please welcome the other half of the Matman, Mark Cooper Jones. Thank you very much. I'm very happy with that. I'm just glad to see that Jay has got a second use out of the arrow that he made to point of the book. That's just, that's it. It's good, efficient use of props. Can I tell you what happened? I put the book behind me and I thought, you know, it's perfectly subtle and it's perfectly acceptable to have your book in the background in a Zoom call. But because of my setup, there was nowhere subtle to put it. It just looked so obviously there on a plinth. And Mark thought, you know, you should make it look even sillier. So I use my best felt tip pen and make myself an arrow.

Thank you very much to both of you for coming back on the show. Mark, how was it for you last time? Do you know, I really enjoyed it. I think I would have, you know, in hindsight, I would have come on if I didn't have a book to promote. Well, also, as far as I know, without a book to promote, our last member of the team today from Looking Glass Universe, Mitha Yogan, Nathan, welcome back to the show.

Thank you very much. Happy to be here. It will be a few months from recording to when this goes out. So, can I ask, what are you working on right now? What's going to be on Looking Glass Universe by the time? that our audience hear this. Nothing special. Oh, come on, sell the show.

No, Mifina, you know what you should do? It's a few months away. Just come up with the thing you want to do now and then as soon as it said, you then have to do it. What better motivation could there be? I'm writing a book. No, you say, I've written a book.

You sold it. I genuinely thought you were writing a book back. No, I'm not. I have no book to promote, and I will not have a book to promote in a few months. Yeah, that's true. Tell us what the channel's about. It's about physics, mostly quantum mechanics, and a bit of mathematics, and yeah, very nerdy.

Well, good luck to all three of you on the show today. I'm going to ask you to power up your brains, conduct yourselves properly, as we zap across to question one. Thank you to Rudy Lathen for sending this question in. The Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883. The following year, why did the bridge's trustees feel it was necessary to enlist the help of P.T. Barnum? I'll give you that one more. time, the Brooklyn Bridge opened in 1883. The following year, why did the Bridges' trustees

feel it was necessary to enlist the help of P.T. Barnum. Ah, P.C. Barnam. I'm going to write down what I think the answer is, because I think I know this one. And if I'm right, I'll hold up the piece of paper at the end, but I think I'm going to sit this one out. All right. It is down to Mark and Middner. Oh.

And that really undermined my moment where I sort of sarcastically pretended to know who P.T. Barner was when I see you do know, which is actually quite annoying. That is going. Jay, obviously, something of a certainly London Bridge. Bridges of London, I should say, specialist. Mithner, do you know who P.T. Barnum was? No. No idea who that is.

Am I supposed to? Well, it's very odd. If it were about five, ten years ago, I think it would be known by a few folks, probably a lot of nerdy folks, certainly. But have either of you seen the greatest chance? showman. Yes, I have, yeah. I'm pretty sure that's about P.T. Barnum.

Right, okay, so... Okay, I don't watch any movies, so who is that? He's a magician, right? I mean, like, that was one of those times... That was one of the two magic films that came out at the same time. The other one had Christian Baird in it. That is The Prestige. Oh, no. That's a wonderful brain connection, though, because those are both played by Hugh Jackman.

This is the other Hugh Jackman movie where he's on stage a lot. Sorry, this is the film my friend Kerry keeps telling me to watch and I don't because I don't rate my friend Kerry's Oh, no! Sorry, Kerry But because of her poor taste, Tom, I know she won't be listening to this podcast

So it's fine. She definitely, definitely won't. Wow. Yeah, I haven't seen The Greatest Showman then, no. All right, Jay, could you fill in a bit about P.T. Barnum was famous for being the man who brought the circus to America. Yes. Right. And so he brought it to America from somewhere else. He was American. He sounds American.

From scratch. He made it a thing. So he was more of an entrepreneurial man or a circus man. I suppose which of those does that make him more? Either way, it doesn't make him an engineer, particularly. Circus and entrepreneurship. P.T. Barnaby, like the quote, there's a sucker born every minute is attributed to him. So, yeah, you've, you know, he was the show. showman. Also a terrible person, but the showman. A terrible person? But in the musical, they made him out to be a hero with a lovely singing voice. Yeah, yeah, they did. They really did. So with the circus thing and thinking about the bridge, he is it that, apart from being a showman,

he also has a decent understanding of, well, I mean, the circus obviously involves quite quick and rapid construction. It also involves feats of engineering with stuff that's high up and things that swing and, you know, acrobats and trapezes or whatever. So I wonder if that sort of thing comes in handy when it comes to a bridge. What type of bridges that Brooklyn Bridge? Is it suspension? I can't remember. I don't know. Yes, it is one of the early suspension bridges. Early suspension bridges. Okay.

I wonder if, because it was one of the early suspension bridges, people were suspicious about whether it worked properly and didn't want to walk across it. Yes, they were, and you're right, they didn't want to walk across it. So he unicycled across it. Or maybe he took an elephant across it or something. Yes, he took the circus across. Yes, he did. Yes, absolutely right.

And Jay is holding up a sign-out I can't read. What does it say there, Jay? Elephants. Elephants. Oh, that's so cute. Yes, elephants. It was 21 elephants and 17. Camels. Just six days after the Brooklyn Bridge had opened, there was a rumour that the bridge

was collapsing, and that rumour caused a fatal stampede. The bridge was fine, but just the rumour that it was unsafe caused a stampede. So on 17th of May, 1884, P.T. Barnum was hired to parade across the bridge with 21 elephants and 17 camels. So, sorry, a rumour that a bridge is collapsing causes a stampede. How does the rumour spread across the bridge? Like, people are whispering to each other while they're walking. The bridge is falling down. The bridge is falling down. Quick run and then they all run while they're already on the bridge. Yeah. It's quite rare that the answer to a stampede is elephants. No, I don't think it was instant. I don't think it was like...

No, I know that. I understand that. But I was just trying to figure out that other piece of the stampede puzzle, like how a rumours leads to where the stampede was. Because if it was on the bridge, that's... Having just looked this up, a large crowd flocked the bridge on Memorial Day. There was a bottleneck, one woman fell down the stairs, someone else screamed, there was panic. And that just spread as, oh, something is wrong with the bridge.

So rather than a rumour spreading, it was just people shouting. Like hysteria. Yeah. And so, was the bridge safe? Yes, but it took a parade of elephants and camels from P.T. Barnum to start to convince people that it was safe to cross. Jay, it is over to you whenever you're ready. Okay. This question has been sent in by Josh O.

At Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine, there are two outdoor hot-shot furnaces with sloped rails running through them. What were they intended to do and what development made them totally obsolete? I'll read that again. At Fort Knox in Prospect, Maine, there are two outdoor hot-shot furnaces

with sloped rails running through them. What were they intended to do and what development made them totally obsolete? Fort Knox. It can't be that Fort Knox. Knox. That Fort Knox is in Kentucky. Or, so it's definitely, I don't know if it's Kentucky, that's in the middle. It's definitely not out on the East Coast. That's a different Fort Knox with the Gold. So, yes, you're right. The Fort Knox you're thinking of is not the Fort Knox

where this is, because this is a Fort Knox with a coastline, and the Fort Knox that you're thinking of is a Fort Knox with the Gold, which is in Kentucky. Different Fort Knox. There are at least two forts Knox. So, and do all these, I presumably it looks, it's still a fort, right? So it's, we're not... Yeah. Well, you know what they say. It's the fort that counts. Ugh. Oh, my goodness. We're still buried... We're still within 10 minutes of the electrocution jokes or the electrics jokes. I've just heard the sound of like 10% of our listeners going,

oh no, I'm just turning off in disgust. I would apologise, but I have nothing to apologise for I stand by that joke. That's pretty good. Um, okay, so with that ringing in our ears, it's, it, yes, I've got, I'm not really progressing things by saying it's a fort, but it's a fort. So it has a, it has some sort of fort like function. Um, uh, sometimes they hold prisoners. Sometimes they store things. They are sort of known for their impenetrability. Is that sort of right? Well, it's a fort. That's usually what it's about, isn't it? I mean, the word fort comes from the word fort, which means strength.

Yes, strength. So outside, do you, do you? say it was outside the fore there were two sloping rails yes yeah okay uh over something so over a furnace over a very hot furnace so two sloping metal rails over a very very very very hot furnace so it's something going out of the fort and into the sea yes and there's a furnace on the way and so we're incinerating something or or just heating something up um to some degree on the way out to the see, and this could be... Okay, hang on, is this a little bit morbid? Well, I mean, the fort has to do with war, aren't they?

So I guess it's all a bit morbid. Okay. I'm thinking lead shot tower. So, all around the world, there's famous one in Melbourne, Australia. There's certainly at least one left in the UK. You know what I'm talking about here, Matt? Yeah, yeah. I drive past it all the time when I'm at home.

Yeah. It's a big old tower where they used to make lead-shot pellets for armaments. And the way you do that is you get a load of lead, and you heat it up at the top of a tower, and then you just use gravity to drop it down, and it cools into a sphere in mid-air, hits water at the bottom, and you've got your lead shot. And I'm one like hot-shot furnace, is it something where, like, that was meant to smooth it or roll it out or something like that, and you end up with perfectly spherical lead shot instead of the imperfect stuff you get from a lead shot tower?

No. Oh! Oh, God, that would have been so good, though. Yeah, that was good. That would have been good. Also, what a satisfying process to watch that would be, watching something start molten and cool down and go plop in the water? Yeah.

We'll watch that for hours. Yeah. I don't know if there are any of those still working. I get the feeling that dropping hot lead through the air is probably not a thing that's acceptable in this century. Depends where you drop it. Well, I don't know. The one in Melbourne can't be that old.

Is the one in Melbourne still working? No. No, it's a shopping mill. Yeah. But I thought that Lead Shop was like a newer technology replacing an older one. So I wonder if that's sort of similar to what the question was saying, where it was obsolete by the time that they had made it. Oh, yeah. Is it to do with manufacturing then?

It's not to do with manufacturing. I think you've lost sight of the fact that we're in a fort, not a forge. Would you like a time period? Yes We're in the 1860s That didn't help So post-war of 1812 Are they still at war then?

They must be at war Surely if this question Well, no, I don't know, maybe not 1860s Yeah, wish I could just sort of rattle off all history in every American decade But I don't know 1860s, 1860s

two sloping rails over a furnace. I can't get the vision of a coffin going down and being incinerated out of my head, but I don't think it would burn quickly enough. I don't know. I'm confused because if it was something molten, then it's rolling down these rails, and then it would get cooled by the water very quickly. And that seems like an issue. Like it seems like that would cause it to fracture or something.

So it doesn't seem like... Well, I'll give you a bit of a clue. Yeah. By the time the thing hit the water, it wouldn't matter anymore. It's what happens before it might hit the water is what matters. So is there a bend in the rails? Not necessarily. Okay, is this about just people trying to attack the side of the fortress?

So people trying to make their way up the walls, scale the walls, however you do that. It feels like a difficult thing to do from a boat, and you did say it was on the coastal side. But is this about just like rolling some heavy, essentially sort of ordinance or something like that down to prevent, to defend? to yeah rolling yes defend yes so you're rolling something down to defend is it to create a wave even something no because the heat what would the heat be to do with well here's another clue to help you along the way you wouldn't need the furnace to be switched on for this thing to do its job but if the furnace is switched on it'll be much more effective well it seems sort of interesting that it was to defend not to attack so you know I would

of thought if you're rolling something out into the sea, that it might be some sort of, you know, weapon or bomb or something. But this seems more like you're defending against a boat coming, which seems strange because you'd have to, like, these metal rails are in place. So, like, they're always going to be in the same spot. And if the boat sort of arrived somewhere over there, it wouldn't work anymore. So, yeah, I don't get that. And launching a torpedo or something like that is not going to, if it's, if it's warmed up slightly on the way, it's not going to make much of a difference. Isn't it?

Oh. It clearly is in this case. I mean, actually, is there some sort of ignition effect that is going to, that lights a fuse on its way down, no, why wouldn't you just do it at the top, make a longer fuse? It's 1860. So how do you normally defend yourself against boats you don't like in the olden days? Well, canon. Yeah.

So why might you want a furnace? And why would it no longer be effective after about 1860 or thereabouts? Iron sides. Go on. Ships started not being made out of wood. War ships in particular, started being made not out of wood around that. Yes. So cannon wasn't effective anymore, but why would you heat up a cannonball?

So what were ships made of before they were made of metal? Wood. and what if... Oh my God, did they send burning cannonballs? Yes, they did. So the furnace was there to make the cannonballs very, very, very, very hot just before they got shot out

and then the theory was that if an extremely hot cannonball hit a wooden ship, it would set it alight. But it never actually got used because it was invented just at the wrong time. So wait, the cannon ball went down the rails on a furnace but then it went into a cannon, is what you're saying? It says here, here is the official answer from the piece of paper. Cannonballs were put on rails in the hot-shot furnace.

In the event of war, the glowing cannibals were to be carried in a label to one of the cannons which would fire at the enemy. The aim was for the cannibals to lodge in the sides of wooden ships and to set them on fire. However, by the time the fort was completed in the 1860s, ships started to be made from metal, so the fort installed larger Rodman cannon instead. The fort was built on the back of anti-British sentiment, but never saw war. This Fort Knox is not the famous gold store, the one in Kentucky, but it's named after the same person. It's the Nissan Black Friday event where you can...

Wait, wait. Isn't it like a month long now? Nissan Blackfri Month? Does that work? It's the Nissan Black Fry Month event. On remaining 2025 Rogan Centra, get 0% financing. Plus, get $1,000 Nissan bonus on kicks models. This Black Friday, you've got a whole month to catch all the exclusive offers waiting for you.

See your local Nissan dealer. or Nissan.ca for details. Conditions apply. Thank you to an anonymous listener for sending this one in. What does Bar Soap have in common with the acoustic guitar and World War I? I'll say that again.

What does Bar Soap have in common with the acoustic guitar and World War I? The letter A. So... So... Like hiring me. So a long time ago, I was on a game show called Only Connect.

It's about, you know, linking things. And there are a lot of things that you can technically link by saying, they're all on Earth, or they're all human. Yes, in technical terms, Jay, they do all have the letter A in common, and just like Only Connect, I'm ruling that one out. All right. Barso, acoustic guitar, not electric guitar. And World War I.

And World War I, which, you know, if any of the three things is going to completely throw us, it's that huge time period rather than singular objects. It did throw people up, did. You're right. Through a lot of people, I really wasn't expecting World War I to come up after the first two. Is it that they've all been superseded? Because bar soap is now that handy soap with the special plunger on top.

Acoustic guitars are now ukuleles and World War I is now World War II. So, you're halfway there with that, Jay. What? It's quite a good answer. When did the hand soap happen again? It was 1980? This is actually the second question that you three have answered when we talked about various types of soap.

Are you, is there a subtle hint here? Is there some kind of subliminal message coming from the production team to us three as guests? This is a sheer coincidence. Get all the soap questions ready, guys. Is it about going retrospectively, renaming things that weren't called a thing at the time because they didn't need to be a thing,

but now they are compared to the new thing? Yes, it is, Jay. That makes sense. These are retronyms. Well, you wouldn't have called it World War I at the time because people would have been going, why? What do you know? It was the Great War, yes.

And the same for bar soap. You wouldn't know that soap is in any form other than bar. Yep. Black and white films or silent films. It makes you question the present day, what are people going to start calling things that we call normal now? You know, non-poisonous phones?

I looked around the room for inspiration. That's the best I could do. Human-created art. Oh, that's a painful one, but yeah. Well, be a term for it. Yes, you're absolutely right, Jay. These are retronyms, things that were later renamed because some new technology came along.

Mithner, we will go over to you for the next question, please. This question was sent in by Oliver Vogue. Why was the original 1979 version of Gangsters by the Specials considered to be unplayable by radio stations? Why was the original 1979 version of Gangsters by the Specials considered to be unplayable by radio stations? Some sort of hissing sound. I immediately looked at Jay.

If anyone's going to know about music history, it's going to be Jay. Does anyone know how it goes? Do we... No. Even if we do, we're not allowed to sing it. It seems reasonably obscure by modern standards. I know a couple of special songs. Ghost Town's the most obvious one.

And a message to you, Rudy, is the other one. All right. And this is, can I ask, was it the lyrics? Were they the reason it was unplayable? No, it wasn't to do with the lyrics. The specials were a SCAR band, Two-Tone and SCAR. Okay. So, so what, unplayable for that reason, then?

Are you just consulting the entire genre? Okay. No, sorry, it's SCAR. We do have a policy. It's on the door. Please stop sending in SCAR. Next year, the policy might change. Try again then. Because it was, the suggestion was that it was, in 1979, did you say the original version was

unplayable, or did they change the... Sorry, what was the wording again? Yeah. So, why was the original 1979 version of the gangsters by the specials considered unplayable? So they potentially had to re-record it for some reason in order to make it playable. 1979 is late enough for commercial radio to be a thing in the UK. The BBC used to ban all sorts of records for all sorts of reasons, like commercials. The kinks had to re-record a bit of Lola because they'd sung Coca-Cola, and it had to be changed to cherry cola, because that's an advert. Can't have that from the BBC.

But this is commercial radio, like 1979. It's not like they snuck an advert or a product placement in there. Well, that's just it. Was it banned by all radio stations, or was it just banned by the BBC, or was it just banned by a capital gold? So it wasn't necessarily banned. It was just considered unplayable. Was it about the technology? I mean, were there... I don't know...

And again, I know nothing about this, but had they created sounds that could not even be broadcasted. You're definitely on the right track now. I'm on the right track, okay. Was the hole in the middle of the record a bit too big? They insisted on only releasing it

on these newfangled cassettes and they were not possible to play. No, so they did record it On a record, on a regular standard record. Okay. Okay. Was the stereo mixed horribly so that you had to have both ears in to hear all the lyrics, and it would have sounded rubbish on a mono radio?

Oh, now the Beatles kept doing that, didn't they? Oh, Beatles, I do like the Beatles a lot, but they sound horrible on headphones. They've got all the singing in one ear and all the music and the drums in the other ear, and it's like, it hurts your head. It wasn't that. But it was unplayable for a technical reason. That's right. So there was no moral reason in it, it sounds like it's not.

like there's a satanic panic with the scar music. Scatanic panic. That's a good name for Scarban. That exists. That must be a scar ban. Scotanic panic, yeah. If you listen to any scar music backwards. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, technical knowledge of audio transmission and broadcast. I mean, if anyone should get this, it's me then, but I don't know. So it sounds like you've already got this, but basically the issue is with the being able to play it on the radio part, not with the song itself. So they could play it live, no problem. So something about the radio. Here's a question. This was 1979. Is it still true now? Would you

still have trouble playing it on a radio today? Yeah, great question. No, I think there would be no problems that playing it today. Okay. But how soon after 1979 did that get fixed? Because radio technology on good old FM is about the same now, isn't it? Well, partly, the feed into the radio is different. Like, back then, it would have been a vinyl player and a load of analog circuitry took it up. It would have been, like, real-time, live, everything would have just been, you put the needle on the record, the world is hearing that. There's no signal delay. There might not even be much in terms of, like, compression or anything like that. Like, was it too loud? Would it have blown people's speakers? Did they have a sort of piccolo playing in the background that

went, which would have made people think, ah, it must be four o'clock of time, you know? for the news. Good piccolo. Good, good very specific niche British radio reference and a pick-alon. I know your listeners. Each of them, individually, personally. So none of those specific technical issues, but a related one, I would say. Like, no, not related to the piccolo. That one was way off base, but the loudness issue maybe is sort of similar. Did it include a fake news broadcast where it's, like halfway through the song, it says it's three o'clock and time for the news and weather, and people might listen to that song and think that it really was the news? That is actually illegal in the UK, well, against the broadcasting code in the UK. You can't do a fake

news broadcast. You also can't play out... The song London Loves by Blur on the album Park Life contains a traffic report. And in theory, somebody out there can pinpoint exactly when that traffic report was from based on how bad the traffic was. And someone will have done. Like, someone bothered to find out the one possible day when Ice Cube's Good Day was in Today Was a Good Day, by just every single lyric in there.

There is one possible day in L.A. where there was no smog and everything else lined up. I can't resist a Beatle story. You know, in the Beatles song, I am the Warrest, there's a bit at the end where, like, they're tuning through the radio and, like, they tune into a little bit of King Lear. I went to watch King Lear, and it's very long, and I found myself sort of falling asleep

until the unmistakable the end of Iron the War started playing in the theatre and what's going on? So is it, because you said it was maybe similar to, along the right lines with the sound being too high

and I don't know nothing about this kind of thing and sound and this technical stuff but is it to do with, can it be to do with the number of layers of sound almost the number of instruments that were in it and whether there's just like too much going,

I don't really understand how complex sound travels down a wire. To me, that is just mind-blowing, let alone Wi-Fi. I just, how do you get multiple sounds at the same time just being electrons? Nobody here needs to answer this now, because I know you've all got long answers to this. I'm just telling you, it blows my mind. Back then, it would have been a needle on a record. That would have converted to an electrical impulse.

That would have gone into the radio systems. But the checks and balances on, like, not blowing up people's radios, Like, that was a thing that was theoretically possible. Like, you could transmit too loud a signal, too higher signal through the air and cause listeners problems or cause the radio equipment problems. Well, if it was too loud,

would it force the needle to start jumping all over the place if it was too loud? And the song was far too loud in bassy and the needle would jump all about the place like a flea. Yeah. Because it's scar. Because it's got a load of really loud drum kicks and brass in there.

And it seems... Yeah. A fan of scar. Yeah, that's exactly it. So they had to re-record the record because there was too much bass in it. It was too loud. It was causing a lot of skipping. Wow.

Did they use piccolo instead of the brass? I think they did actually. I think you might be right, actually, because they apparently had to re-record it so it had more high-frequency sounds in it. Flutes. Incredible. Exactly. Thank you to Daniel Peek for this question. In 2007, the UK's National Lottery released its cool cash scratch card.

Less than a week later, it had to be withdrawn. Why? I'll say that again. In November 2007, the UK's National Lottery released its cool cash scratch card. Less than a week later, it had to be withdrawn. Why? Were they all winners accidentally? That would be absolutely insane.

It would be slightly too much, but I'm not going to say that's completely. wrong. Too many people were winning on a technicality where it's something like you need to find three red blobs and they found like a smear of red ink down the side that they didn't manage to cover in their own small print. Oh yeah, maybe there's a way of hacking it. Yes. Like if you held it up to an incredibly powerful light. It wasn't a production error. Like the scratch cards worked as normal. Okay, but was it a maths era where they'd like miscalculated the probability of winning. And so it was like too likely to win. And then, you know, it wasn't worth it for them. You are all zoning in very quickly. Medina, math, Sarah. Definitely going on that.

The cards weren't all winners, but perhaps people thought they might be. Was it not clear then? So, because you know, the rules of, I don't know what this card looked like. Usually with these things, you have to like match things or get rows of things. And if there was a clarification, error in what you needed to get on the card. So you had a lot of people calling in saying, I've, you know, like, yeah, look, I've got a 2000. And all the rest of it. And then actually, they had to clarify that what had been written in the T's and Cs on the back didn't mean what a lot of people had assumed it to be. So it's almost like a legal. Well, no, you said it was a math error. It's a math error, but Mark, you're definitely along the right lines.

So it's not that too many people were winning. It's that too many people thought they were winning and were jamming at the phone lines. Yes. Was it not clear? that it was pounds, not pence. No, no, no, you've won one pound. Sorry. The retailers who were selling it were getting people coming back and going, I've won, and they'd scan it, and no, no, you haven't won here.

But people thought they hadn't, they looked, they go, oh, yeah, no, I've won there. Due to a maths... The scratch card is called Cool Cash. It's not some sort of heat-sensitive thing, is it? You know, do you remember those t-shirts in the 90s that change colour? Is it a sort of thing where you have to scratch off three bells, but also, if you rub it with your thumb,

will it turn orange or won't it, or... Have I invented something cool just now? You have actually invented something cool just now, yes. As in, that's not the right answer. That's not the right answer, no. So is it not actually cash that they were better? Cool cash was like a... No, I don't know where I'm going with this.

Look, they all have different themes. Like, there might be a treasure chest you have to... scratch, but it is just like, scratch off, see if you've won. So just for clarification, are we saying that this was just like one box that they had to scratch and then it said you won or you didn't win, or is it like several boxes and you have to get it like a row or something? It's several boxes and you have to look at a thing on each line to know if you've won. You have to look at a thing.

On a scratch card called Cool Cash. Often it's a set of images, isn't it? So you've got to join up like three icicles or whatever. Jay's making his face. Stop talking. The last two times. And then he says something absolutely wild. And then I say no.

And you say no. And then everyone forgets where they were. Usually means I've got a wrong answer coming, but is there something to do with the, ooh, in the middle of cool, looking like a couple of zeros? No. Sorry, Jake, the past.

It's like a snowflake or a... Something about the symbol is interrupting what people thought about it. It's not the symbol. A couple of zeros isn't quite right, but like math's error. So is there snow falling and people thought there was a decimal point

or... Now we're getting closer. Oh. Oh, there's some... Okay, so there's something in that... Yeah, snow ice cubes, snowmen. Was it...

Was it some sort of like... You just have to look at this thing and then you know whether you've won or do you have to like add up something or, you know, read out a number? You do have to read out a number, yes. Okay. Okay, and so maybe that was something to do.

And again, cool. I keep emphasising the name is cool. Oh, degree C? Is it a degree C thing? Yes. Ah. Now. Oh! So the number, the correct thing, is supposed to be to do with like how hot something is

and people are getting muddled up to do with Fahrenheit or zero degrees or something like that? You are so close. You are so close. You're right. They had to scratch off different temperatures. There is a temperature. And you had to compare that temperature to... the other temperatures to see which prizes you'd won. Oh. Okay. So what's the maths error?

Oh, is it because of the negative sign? Like, they had to figure out... Oh! That's so funny. Talk us through it, Nevada. Okay, so what I'm thinking is, like, you know, you have to compare two temperatures. One of them is negative, and people couldn't tell if that was the colder one or the hotter one. Yes.

Players had to scratch off a panel revealing today's temperature. And if any of their prize panels were... lower than that temperature, then they'd won. But players thought that minus three was lower than minus five, because the number is lower, and it's a little bit ambiguous, and the lottery operator, after about a week, just went, we are scrapping these entire run of scratch cards. We're just calling the whole thing off. What they should have done was relaunched the whole thing, but in Kelvin. Yeah, exactly. Right. That's the sensible thing to do. That'll help clear it up for the public.

Mark, it's over to you whenever you're ready. This question has been sent in by chaotic neutral check. On some pieces of military equipment, the top row of the keyboard reads 1.2, N, 4, 5. Why? On some pieces of military equipment, the top row of the keyboard reads 1, 2, N for November, 4, 5. Why? Because they've got N instead of three. I was sure... Jay, you've cracked it, and we can all go home. I was sure this was going to be something like

1, 2, 3, 4N because 5 sounds like fire and it skipped in some military countdowns just for that reason. But apparently not. Can I actually just say, the other day, my wife was saying something to me phonetically. And when she got to an N,

sorry, when she got to an M, She said, M for Movember. She genuinely did that. The worst use of the phonetic alphabet, or attempted phonetic alphabet, I've ever heard. There is something out there, I think, called the Devils phonetic alphabet, which includes things like P for psychology. Yeah. Well, this would fit perfectly in the Devils.

Anyway, so, one, two, N, four, five, on some pieces of military equipment. Why? So they either need the three not to be there, because that's too convenient, or the N, they need Ns all over the place. Okay, military equipment, we've got to figure this out. So guns and planes and what other military equipment is there? Is it like a key that you use to open something? Is it a keypad?

It's not opening, no. Okay. Does the key that's supposed to have a three on it that has an N instead, like, is the three still there with the shift key? Like, where have they put the three? Is the three missing entirely? So I don't have the answer to that. One suspects that they...

Well, I'm just suspecting that there might have been a three over on the other... You know, sometimes you get a second number pad. Could we roll off some military equipment here? Like, what's going to have keys for that? Submarine missile launches, very hot cannonballs. Maybe something where you have like a... You have to put in a key to launch something.

Like, you know, nuclear codes, that sort of thing. Or like playing a game of battleships where you have to put the coordinates in. Maybe. Or, yeah. I'll give you a first clue now, which is there was another N in the usual place. It's not a huge clue, but just saying it's not that they have decided this is the best and only place for an N, but the rest of the keyboard is normal. Is it because you need to be able to type NNNNNNN in the N really quickly with two fingers one on each hand, so you need more than one?

I love that that would be a military strategy that would achieve something. Quick, type N as quickly as you can, or we will lose. It might be a text conversation. Should we launch the missiles? No! Just type no, Jay. In that situation, please. So when you said that there are two ends,

does that mean that even when you pressed the end that should be, well, is where the three should be, you would still get an N as an output, or would you get a three as an output? The presumption is that you would get an N as an output. Yeah. Okay. It doesn't really help to have had two, though.

It's not like you were suggesting J. You don't need two. Yeah. If I know this podcast, there is more at play than just the N. There's probably something else awry about this keyboard. Can you tell me, is there anything? Well, the letters below that N are there in the standard QWERTY layout.

And the rest of the numbers? Normal. Okay, well, let's think why you might use the letter N other than to type no very loudly. That's what you need to think about. That's the right question, yeah. Why might you want the letter N? Mm-hmm.

And not the letter Y. And not the letter three. The number three. Yeah, of all the places they could have put the extra N, they've sacrificed three. Yeah, and there is obviously a reason why they've put it there, but there is no benefit in the sacrificing of the three.

Is it because, had they put it there for safety to stop you doing something that you might otherwise unthinkingly do with a normal keyboard? Is anyone else looking down at their keyboard?

Yes. Yes. Well, because what else is... I'm looking at the other symbols on the three. I've got a pound sign on mine. I don't think that's going to be much good in the military.

It's going to be W, E, and R are going to be near it, but... North, west, east, south. Oh! I look down on my keyboard. There's a W and an E below it. and an S below that?

Oh, of course. Correct. North, west, east, south. This is used on navigational equipment within the military, and it allows the keyboard, the QWERTY keyboard, by replacing that 3 with an end

to be used as a compass rose because you've got the N, and just below that, you have the W and the E next to that, and just below the W, you have the S. So you can essentially use your military vehicle, usually using military vehicles

in a sort of game-like way, almost, just having one hand hovering over that. And yes, if you then need a three, you're probably in trouble and you really have to think. So hopefully three's never come up at war. Thank you to Jesse Steele for sending in the question I asked right at the start of the show. In East Africa, why is a motorcycle taxi called a Boda Boda?

Does anyone want to have a quick shot at that before I tell the audience? Is it Kiswahili? Is Boda Kiswahili for Wheel? Oh, no. No. Well, that was my other thought. Well, it is something that sounds like. It's not onomatopoeic, but it sounds like something. Is it when it bumps along the road?

It's not anatopoeic. Oh, it's not. I just wanted to make silly noises. Did you say two-person motorcycle? A motorcycle taxi. Motorcycle taxi, exactly. Okay. This is to do with international transport.

Boda, boda. Border. Keep going. Borda, border. So they go across the border to and fro. It gets you from border to border. Absolutely right. Where can people find you, what's going on your lives? We will start with Mithana.

You can find me at Looking Glass Universe on YouTube. Mark? Well, Jay and I are just working on some more map-men's, and we've got a book that's just coming out called This Way Up, where maps go wrong and why it matters. And Jay. Like Mark said, we've got more episodes of Map Men on our YouTube channel, search for Map Men.

And you can also buy our book called This Way Up When Maps Go Wrong, which is like Mapmen in book form. And if you want to know more about this show, you can do that at Lateralcast.com. We'll also send in your own ideas for questions. We are at Lateralcast, basically, everywhere, and there are full video episodes every week on Spotify. Thank you very much to Jay Foreman. Thank you very much. Mark Cooper Jones. Thank you.

Mithina Yogan, Nathan. Thank you. I've been Tom Scott, and that's been Lateral. Thank you.