Law&Crime Sidebar - 10 Horrifying New 'Doomsday Cult' Murder Details Revealed in Chad Daybell's Trial

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Chad Daybell faces multiple charges of murder for allegedly killing his wife, Tammy Daybell, and his new lover’s two children, JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan. Their mother, Lori Vallow Daybell, was convicted last year of murder and given multiple life sentences. As Chad’s trial continues, graphic and shocking new details are making headlines. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber takes a look at ten of the biggest moments.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Get 50% off of confidential background reports at https://www.truthfinder.com/lcsidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wonderly Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wonderly Plus in the Wondery app Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Agent Nate Russo returns in Oracle 3, Murder at the Grandview, the latest installment of the gripping Audible Original series. When a reunion at an abandoned island hotel turns deadly, Russo must untangle accident from murder. But beware, something sinister lurks in the grand. View Shadows. Joshua Jackson delivers a bone-chilling performance in this supernatural thriller

that will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. So in the weeks and months following the death of Charles Vallow, we received information that Charles was possibly killed by Alex because he was a dark spirit or a zombie. There's been no shortage of horrifying moments in Chad Daybell's murder trial. From human remains to warp beliefs to attempted shootings, we're going to get into it. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime.

I'm Jesse Weber. I want to be very clear about something. This Chad Daybell trial that we've been covering out of Idaho is very important. I will also tell you it is fascinating. But I won't sugarcoat this. It is not easy. It is not easy to hear what happened. It is not easy to report on the details that we are hearing from these witnesses.

And I can only imagine how difficult it must be for that jury to hear these absolutely horrifying details. Because we are talking about the brutal deaths of three people as part of this purported doomsday cult duo of Chad Daybell and his wife. co-defendant, Lori Vallow Daybell. Lori was convicted and sentenced to life in prison for her role in the murders of her two children, seven-year-old Joshua J.J. Valo and 16-year-old Tiley Ryan, whose bodies were found on Chad's property, but as well as Chad's first wife, 49-year-old Tammy Daybell, who died in the Daybell family home.

After her body was exhumed, it was determined by authorities that she died from homicidal asphyxiation. Well, now we have the trial of Chad Daybell, this religious author who wrote about end of days and dark spirits. In fact, prosecutors have presented evidence that show Lori and Chad seem to use religion as a motivation to kill. They also say that they were having an affair. And after killing these three people,

they look to benefit financially through insurance and social security payouts. And what we want to do right now for this episode is we want to explore some of the most horrifying moments in this case because at times it is almost too shocking to even believe what we're talking about. Unfortunately, the most appropriate place to start when we talk about horrifying moments is the discovery of the kids' bodies. They're decomposed bodies on Chad Daybell's property. June 9th, 2020.

This is when law enforcement discovered their remains. Tiley found near a fire pit, JJ found near a pond. Here we have Detective Ray Hermaccio from the Rexburg Police Department first talking about Pyley whose body was burnt. So what you're looking at on this blue tarp is burnt flesh still attached to some bone. The upper left is part of that section that you're looking at as part of the head bone that still has burnt flesh attached to it and dirt and yeah just fatty burn tissue and that's part of human skulls to the right of the green bucket there were teeth there in the dirt as well

so these were part of tightly that kind of broke apart when we tried to lift it out of the ground there's pieces of charred bone there's parts of a skull on the bottom left covered in dirt and they're still burned rotting flesh still attached to the bone. I know. It is horrifying.

I don't have another word to describe this, but it is absolutely horrifying to hear these details. But from a legal point of view, from a prosecutorial point of view, it is very important the jury hears this. It's important that the jury understand what happened here exactly, because the prosecution needs to explain each of these details to prove their case beyond the reasonable doubt, including that two people do. died. That's what you have to prove in order to get to first-degree murder. And the burning aspect is particularly important because Chad was allegedly looking up wind directions at the time. That goes to the idea that Chad knew and was a part of the killing and disposal of the kids' remains. You couple that with this bizarre text that he sends Tammy on September 9th, the day that we believe Tiley was buried. He texts Tammy that he was burning limb debris in the yard,

that he saw a raccoon and had to kill and bury it in the family. family pet cemetery, that has always been thought to be a way that Chad was trying to cover up the actual burning and burial of Tiley's body. And then we heard about JJ. Dr. Warren pointed out some bruising on his arms, on his ankles, on his chest. He also pointed out some scratch marks on the left side of his neck, just under the duct tape. I, um, I, um, observed a small child with duct tape on his head from his chin to his forehead area, tightly wrapped around his head. He had red pajama pants on, red pajama shirt. He had his arms folded this way across the body, and there was duct tape from elbow all the way around

to his other elbow. He had his ankles also bound with duct tape. He was still learning his nighttime pull-up diaper. He had black socks with the word sketchers and orange. I could tell that he was going through various states of decomposition based on skin color. You know what gets me when I listen to that? It's the innocence. That's really what's hard for me. It's just so unbelievably sad to think about JJ's final moments and how.

how he was found and to hear how he died, these two innocent young children. They didn't deserve this. And this always gets me too. The last time two key witnesses saw JJ alive right before prosecutors say he was murdered. The night of September 22nd, Lori's former friend, Melanie Gibb, and her husband, David Warwick, they were at Lori's house to do a podcast. Take a listen. What was happening the last time you saw him, if you remember?

I was in the house, Lori's house, and I was doing a recording with Lori and David and Alex walked in the door, holding JJ on his shoulder and was taking him to bed. He had fallen asleep. And did you see where Alex put JJ to bed? No. Do you know which room JJ normally slept in? He often slept with his mom in the corner of her room. there was a little spot that she would put a bed in there for him, but he also had his own

bedroom too. Did he sleep in his bedroom that night? No. And how do you know that? Because I was in, I was in that bedroom. So was it your understanding JJ was put to bed in Lori's room that night? Yes. When you got up the next morning, did you have any more interactions with Lori? Yes. I came downstairs, getting ready to leave for Pocatello. So I just went to say goodbye to Lori at JJ. And Lori was in the kitchen and she was a little dramatic. And I just said, well, we're leaving. I'd like to say goodbye to JJ. She said, oh, he was out of control. And I had to have Alex come and get him. She just seemed really talking fast and nervous. Just kind of, when I meant to be dramatic, she explained that he climbed up on the cabinets in the fridge and got on top of

the upper cabinets. Did that seem accurate to you, her account of what had happened with JJ climbing on the cabinets? No. Why not? Because I didn't see any broken parts on the cabinet. I didn't see any scuffs on the fridge. She said that he was having a possession attack. And so I said, well, I'd really like to see him. And she said, no, Alex has got him and he's taken care of him. Yes, Melanie also testified that Lori told her J.J. was possessed. We'll play that in a little bit. But that feeds into this narrative put forward by the prosecution that this warped religious belief system was used as a justification or motivation to kill. Are we shocked? Lori was ultimately convicted after hearing things like this. Every time I think

about this Abel case, it just reminds me how important it is to be careful about who you surround yourself with, who you listen to, who you let into your life, because that can be very, very scary. But that is why I'm excited to talk to you about this service that we have partnered up with here on Sidebar. They are a great sponsor of ours, TruthFinder. So TruthFinder is a service that can provide actual safety for you guys. I don't say that lightly. TruthFinder is one of the largest public records search services in the entire world. Their whole goal is to help people like you learn the background details about those in their lives.

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from TruthFinder being a great tool to protect yourself, this is also a tool that you can use to just reconnect with people, long-lost friends, family members you haven't spoken to in a while, TruthFinder can help track down these people's information for you. Well, right now, you can get 50% off of confidential background reports. Just go to truthfinder.com slash LC sidebar. We'll be check it out. But keeping up with Melanie, you know what's another moment, almost incomprehensible, apparently Lori told Melanie to lie to police about having JJ.

This is when he went missing and we didn't know what happened to him. And we really got into this during a disturbing recorded phone call between Melanie and Chad and Lori. Hi, Chad. Hey, Lori. Hey, let me speak. Oh, okay. How are you guys?

Thank you. How are you doing me? I'm doing pretty good, thanks. I was wondering, where are you guys? We're just hanging out. Are you in Idaho? We're going to Idaho. I just wanted to ask you a question if you don't mind, Lori. Yeah, I want to know, you remember we talked about JJ going to Kay's house

and you told me they went there and now he's not there. I was wondering what happened. Well, I had to move in somewhere else because, her actions so was she was she doing something like was she trying to come get him or something or like trying to kidnap him well she's yeah she said that lots of times before but um okay well you know when i asked chad the other day was like hey um you know where where is jj and he said for my security he didn't want me to know so is there a reason i should be in danger to know where he is No, it's nobody. It's his danger. It's the danger that there's people after me.

Okay. So if you know, that puts you in a danger. Well, just in a bad position. Everybody, if they don't know anything, then they don't have to say they know. Right. So you're just worried. Okay. I'm just to keep him protected and keep everybody else. I appreciate that. Um, well, I was wondering why you told the police why he was with me.

I just needed to talk somebody that I, so I wouldn't have to tell them where he really was because they were going to tell Kay where he kids. Oh, is JJ safe? He is safe and happy. And I believe that, look, I believe that you have been very deceived by Satan. I believe that he has tricked you. Do you know me, Matt? Now, you know me. This does not sound like you.

That sounds like you've been influenced by somebody dark. I just want to testify that I know Tammy plus at the conspiracy theories. My sister-in-law is right behind it all. And I hope that you're not being influenced by that dark team. And look, we know Lori was convicted and we know what prosecutors are asserting against Chad. So the idea that they're just like, oh. don't worry about JJ when they conceivably know he's dead and buried in Chad's backyard. Again, how horrifying is that?

How horrifying that Melanie Gibb was allegedly asked to lie? And you know what? Even more so, she actually did it. Yeah, that was a point that was cross-examined about by Chad's attorney John prior, that Melanie Gibb wasn't honest with police. And then was it that day or was it the next day that the police officers called you? was the same day. Okay. And at that point, you told them that you had J.J. Valo, didn't you? Not initially, but by the end of the day, yes. Okay. You basically told them during that day that you

had possession of J.J. Valo. Is that right? I said I had him, and then I didn't have it. Well, no, we're going to go one at a time, ma'am. Okay. At the first opportunity to have discussion with the police and discuss where J.J. Valo was, you told them you had J.J. Valo. Correct. And then at some point, subsequent to that point, you decided to tell the police, well, I lied about this because I was having an emotional issue with how to deal with this, correct? Yes. It's just crazy. But moving on from there, let's talk now about the other victim in this case, Tammy Daybell.

We know that Tammy Daybell died on October 19, 2019. But just 10 days earlier, something very, very chilling happened. someone seemingly tried to shoot her. Listen to this 911 phone call from Tammy. Ramon County Sheriff's Office. Hi, I need to report something. Okay, go ahead. What's the address?

Okay. At 202 north, 1900 east, the corner with the blinking yellow light on Salem Highway. Is it a suspicious person? Yes. Okay, what was he wearing? He was all dressed in black and he had a sea mask on. and he's at the blinking light now is where you saw him

no no I'm when I he's gone now because I pulled up into our driveway and he I was getting stuff out of the back seat in my car and suddenly he was there and he had a paintball gun

and he was like he was going to shoot at me and I kept asking him what he was doing because I could tell it was a paintball thing and then he just kept doing it so I yelled to my husband and then he took off running around the back of my house so he was on the north side of my house is where he went to get away.

Okay. He didn't say anything or he just kept at, like he was holding the gun like he was, you know, had a rifle and he was shooting at me. So, but nothing came out of the gun either. So I don't think it was loaded. Okay. What is your name?

My name is Tammy Daybell. It is so chilling, hearing her, hearing her voice right before she died. And the prosecution presented evidence that Alex Cox was that person, that he was this attempted shooter that Cox had visited a gun range under a fake name multiple times between October 7th and October 15th. That's what prosecution's evidence suggested. Remember, this shooting event happened on October 9th and she died on October 19th.

And the day before this event, Cox allegedly Googled Shooting Drop the days after this event, he searched for AR rifle components, how a rifle responds in cold weather, and I think it was 26 degrees that day. Even he searched for gilly suits and whether a gun would pierce through a Dodge Dakota. That was the car that Tammy was reportedly driving. And he might be saying, how come Alex Cox hasn't been arrested in all this? Because not only has he been implicated in this event, he's also believed to be the person who killed the kids, while Alex Cox is dead. He died from a blood clot. Some people have been suspicious of that, but by all accounts, he died from a blood clot. But moving on, let's stick with Tammy Daybell for a second, because you want to talk horrifying?

As I mentioned, she dies only days after this event. And that brings me to the testimony of Brenda Die, the Fremont County coroner, who initially determined that Tammy Daybill died of natural causes. Now, she testified that originally she believed Tammy died from a pulmonary edema. This was due to a cardiac event. This was based on Chad's statements that Tammy had low blood pressure, that she had fainting, that she had. shaking fits, how he saw her on the bed. However, as you will see, Brenda Dye had a total change of opinion when it came to the untimely death of Tammy Daybell. Now, have you recently made any amendments to the death certificate? Yes. And what have you done with that?

The manner of death was changed to homicide. The cause of death was changed to asphyxiation by suffocation. Can you explain to the jury? Why did you make that change? Tammy's body was exhumed and a medical examiner from Utah autopsied her body. Did you attend that autopsy? Yes. Were you present for the beginning to end of the autopsy? Yes. As you were there, were you standing there with the ME performing the autopsy? Yes. As they were dissecting the bruise, it was a very deep bruise on her arm. It did make sense that she had thrown up the night before because she still had stomach contents. I pause you, please. Yes.

Explain that to the jury, please. So her stomach was full of food. If she threw up, there wouldn't be food in her stomach during the autopsy. So that did not match Chad's account that Tammy threw up. Her organs were in good shape except her lungs, and she said there shouldn't have been foam in the lungs. And if you believe the prosecution, this is a woman that he had been married to since 1990, had five children with, murders her, and then two weeks later, he marries Lori in Hawaii. Yeah, there are pictures of them happy, frolicking on the beach.

Again, horrifying to think about this death. Now, Chad's attorney, John Pryor, has been focusing on issues with Tammy's health to suggest that she wasn't murdered, but that she died from a natural cause, how she had possibly been suffering from various ailments, that she wasn't feeling well weeks before her death, that the bruises on her body might actually be old bruises. In other words, her death was natural. I will say this.

Again, she just happens to die right at that moment of a disease. Awfully convenient that she dies right after someone seemingly tries to shoot her the month after the kids are killed. And again, two weeks before Chad and Lori jet off to Hawaii to get married. Suspicious? I think so. But here's something we never knew before, something completely new.

We did not know it before this trial, and it is interesting, to say the least. Some might even say disturbing. According to a detective from Fremont County Sheriff's Office, after reviewing emails and chats, he concluded that Tammy might have also been involved in these extreme religious beliefs. By looking over the chats,

there are several that lead me to believe. Tammy along with Mark, Emma, Garth, Seth, and Leah have knowledge of the belief in light and dark people that Chad talk about and believed. Okay. We go down to the next one, and it starts with on another Chad, on another chat, Chad said, Mom and I taught 12-year-old Sunday school yesterday. Canyon Scott's actions confirmed he is 4.2 dark. You see that? Yes. Do you have any knowledge as to whether Canyon Scott is dead or has been murdered or any investigation into that kind of a matter? I have no knowledge of that. Wow.

Now, John Pryor, Dave L's defense attorney, seems to be trying to show that, hey, the whole family believed in all this stuff. Nothing outrageous, nothing nefarious here, but it is shocking that Tammy and the kids seem to believe in light and dark. And in a way, it is a bit troubling way we put it into the context of the prosecution's argument that Lori and Chad use these beliefs to kill. I do wonder, since we believe that Chad and Tammy's kids are going to testify in this case, if they believe that her death was from natural causes and that perhaps this light, dark belief system played a factor and that their father did not murder their mother. I don't know.

We'll wait and see. Now, moving on, one of the most chilling aspects of this entire case is where prosecutors show that Chad predicted Tammy was going to die. And I want to call out one text in particular that is, again, very eerie, a text between Chad and Lori. He follows up with a narrative or sentiment that he believes or feels that he's a grown-up version of Harry Potter, who has to live with the Dudleys in a little space under the stairs, and then every few weeks he gets to escape and have amazing adventures.

with his goddess lover, the part that to me is most significant is the final sentiment where he says, then I have to return to my place under the stairs, feeling trapped. But I sense permanent freedom is coming, exclamation point. I sense permanent freedom is coming soon. This is a few months before Tammy dies. And by the way, only a few days after Charo's Valo died. This is Lori's husband who she had been cheating on with Chad. He's killed by Alex Cox, Lori's brother, her protector, as prosecutors have suggested.

Alex shot Charles Valo to death. Shot him. But at the time, initially it was claimed this was self-defense. Now, investigators say not so much because Arizona prosecutors have charged Lori Valo Daybell with conspiracy to commit the murder of Charles Valo. She has yet to go to trial on that one. Okay, moving on, let's talk about something else. how the court has allowed the prosecution to present evidence of other acts and other events,

things that Chad is not charged with, but to show almost a pattern here of the couple, that pattern to get rid of people that were in their way. And that brings me to Brandon Boudreau. This is the ex-husband of Lori's niece, Melanie Polowski. And he testified that his relationship with Lori was strained when she started getting deeper and deeper into these extreme religious beliefs. And allegedly tried to get his wife to follow suit. So he and Melanie end up deciding to get divorced.

And you fast forward to October 2nd, 2019, again, the same month that Tammy dies, the month after the kids are killed. And that is when he comes home and someone tries to shoot him? There was like a Jeep parked right on the edge of it where I would normally turn in. And there was nothing parked there usually. I'd only been there for a few days. But so far it was always there was a span there. and like the Jeep was parked with its like bumper basically on the van and it and it just looked at that place uh it had a a texas license plate there was no tire on the back of the jeep and you know how when you um open and close

the jeep there's like little tabs on the window those were sitting on the outside of it um so just it just looked awkward you know it just was awkward enough did you notice anybody inside of it i couldn't tell if there was anybody inside of it you know this all happened in such i mean imagine coming around a corner driving a couple house lengths so it'll happen very quickly and then the window opened up and I saw a gun and a silencer and um I would just I mean my window shattered air to bang you know all kind of in the same amount of time and my immediate thought was just I'm getting shot at and I instead of turning my wheel and into my driveway I just pushed the gas and drove straight um forward what happened after that

I drove to where my street ended, and there was a turn. And kind of as I came up to that part, I remember grabbing my phone calling 911. So weird that that happens, what, days before this attempted shooting on Tammy, too. And you want to know what's even more chilling about this? He had just moved to that place because of the divorce. So only Melanie Polowski knew his address. And he also explained that Charles Vallow, the deceased former husband of Lori, who again was killed by Alex Cox,

he said Charles had purchased for Tiley a Jeep with a Texas license plate. So I think there's an argument here that Alex Cox is ultimately the attempted shooter here as well. Now, when I talk about horrifying moments in the trial of Chad Daybell, I always come back to the extreme beliefs component of this case, that Lori and Chad allegedly used religion as a justification to kill, that that has always been the theme in both of these trials. And that idea was quite prevalent when hearing about the death of Lori's former husband, Charles Vallow.

Again, he was killed in July of 2019 by Alex Cox, Lori's brother out in Arizona. Well, here is Detective Nathan Duncan from the Chandler Police Department. He investigated the shooting death of Charles Vallow. And talking about certain text messages regarding Ned, that apparently was the demon living inside of Charles. The following messages were seen between Lori Valo and Alex Cox. On 3-9, 2019, at 1127 hours, Lori sent Alex a text that says,

apparently it is tied to Ned being gone. There's an emoji in there, but the emoji is not included. Hopefully today or tomorrow. On 310, 2019, at 841 in the morning, Alex sent Lori a message. you two, have fun, and get rid of Ned already. So in the weeks and months following the death of Charles Valo, we received information that Charles was possibly killed by Alex because he was a dark spirit or a zombie. The name Ned is a name that even Charles would tell people that

Laurie was referring to him as. So the name Ned is the dark spirit's name that was given to Charles Battle. And we heard this more from Melanie Gibb, Lori's former friend who took the stand, talking not just about Charles, but also, as I mentioned earlier, JJ. At some point, did she talk to you more about what it meant if the evil spirit came in,

like where the actual person went? So when a dark spirit would take over, the original spirit of the person would go into the spirit world. And that's what she originally told you. that's right and did she tell you she received that information from chad yes was there a way to do something to help that person um she would try to um do like um casting out of an evil spirit um she would say that that the body would was supposed to die if they if it would if the evil spirit left so in charles case ned's out and a new spirit's in correct at some point did lorry

talk to you about some struggles with JJ? Yes. What did she share with you about that? She said that he was acting out more as far as the weekend that I was there in September, that he was acting like he was possessed. He was one minute he would be upset. One minute she would say he was talking very intelligent, just a variety of different behaviors.

She seemed troubled by it, that he had been taken over by evil spirit. that he was upsetting. I don't know. She just seemed kind of upset by it. Now, to be very clear, Chad is not charged in connection with Charles' death, but only the deaths of the kids and Tammy,

but you're hearing this testimony to really illustrate that these warped religious beliefs seemingly emanated from Chad, that there is a pattern here of people in the couple's way, dark spirits, zombies need to be eliminated. And there is a connection to Charles, too.

Let's not forget, prosecutors assert Charles found out that Lori was having an affair with Chad, and contacted or tried to contact Tammy Daybell to let her know. So it's all connected in this way. But again, the idea that JJ is possessed right before he's killed, carried away by Alex Cox, chilling, horrifying to think about. Now, let me end on this when we talk about horrifying moments in the trial of Chad Daybell.

This is something incredibly unnerving. And it's this call that I'm about to play for you. because on the day the kids decomposed bodies were found in Chad's yard, Chad and Lori were talking on the phone. And it was recorded because Lori was locked up in jail at the time on charges of not producing her kids. This was at the time that the kids were missing and we didn't know where they were. She hadn't been charged with murder yet. But just listen to this very odd exchange as police are searching Chad's property.

Hi, babe. Hello. Are you okay? Oh, they're searching the property. The house right now? Yeah. Yeah. Are they seizing stuff again?

They're searching. There's a search warrant. So the moment I'm just at Emma's with the kids. Okay. We'll see what transpires. Okay. I don't.

What do we to do? Pray. What? What do you want me? Yeah, pray. Pray. Okay. What can I do for you?

I'm feeling pretty calm. I would call Mark, oh, Katie. I love you so much. Okay, I love you. Should I try to call you later? Um, I don't know. I don't know.

He can try, yeah. I'll answer if I can. No, he wouldn't be able to answer because he would be arrested. And when we talk horrifying, Lori knows what's going on here. And according to prosecutors, so does chat. And that calm, eerie demeanor, her kids are buried in the yard. Police are about to find this out. And there's this reaction, it is so twisted.

And also, I will tell you, I think some of the worst evidence, against Chad because if he really had no role in the kids' killings or the disposal that he didn't know what was going on, that arguably, and he's been putting the blame on Alex Cox as the one who buried the kids, well, here's my take. Again, where is the surprise? Where is the outrage? What are police doing here? Lori, what is going on? No, we don't get any of that. And to me, that is one of the most horrifying things in this entire trial. That's all we have for you here on Sidebar, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time.

Thank you.