Law&Crime Sidebar - 10 Wild ‘Lil Woody’ Moments in Young Thug Trial: ‘I’m a Liar’

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

Kenneth Copeland, also known as “Lil Woody,” is back on the stand in the RICO trial of Jeffrey “Young Thug” Williams in Atlanta. Prosecutors wanted Copeland to confirm that Williams was connected to a drive-by shooting, which he had previously told Atlanta Police. Copeland insisted he made the whole thing up to divert attention away from his own criminal activity. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber takes a closer look at some of the most jaw-dropping courtroom moments.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/sidebar to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.Protect your retirement with a Gold IRA at https://lawandcrimegold.com or call 877-646-5347!HOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael Deininger and Christina FalconeScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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will keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. If you can answer the questions truthfully and we can move forward. Can we do that? I don't recall. All right. Detenters Thorpe, his brain was the size of a squirrel of brain. So you can just tell him anything, he's going to go for it. He's back. The witness in the Young Thug RICO trial, whose testimony already went viral, Kenneth Copeland, a.k. Lil Woody, is back in the hot seat in Atlanta.

In his antics and passion, they are on full display. We are breaking down the top 10 moments in Lil Woody's testimony in front of a brand new judge as the Young Thug trial tries to get going. Once again, welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber. It's been a minute since we've talked about the RICO case against Jeffrey Lamar Williams, also known as rapper Young Thug and several co-defendants out in Atlanta, Georgia. This, of course, is the trial that had been on pause while the court worked out some things behind the scenes.

Like, you know, the original judge having to recuse himself, working out motions to dismiss the case, to get the prosecutors thrown off the case. It has been something to watch. In fact, the jurors in this case, they haven't heard testimony since June. But as you'll see, they're finally brought back in to hear the continuation of this case. Not an easy task for any jury to sit in a criminal trial. This one is something else. But having said that, we want to get you caught up as quickly as possible on all of this

because what is happening? The state's star witness seems to be once again causing trouble for the prosecution. Now, if you've been following this trial on the Law and Crime Network, you know that Judge Ural Glanville was removed from the case after overseeing it for more than a year. Attorneys for Mr. Williams and a co-defendant, Diomante Kendrick, filed motions asking for Fulton County

to take Glanville off the trial after a very controversial in-chambers meeting happened between the judge and the prosecutors from the Fulton County District Attorney's Office and witness Kenneth Copeland, also known as Lou Woody. And this is called an ex parte meeting where the defense was not present.

So it's a little bit complicated, but what's going on here, and this is kind of a simplified version, is that Copeland is one of the witnesses that the state wants to use to show that Williams is connected to acts that further the cause of his alleged gang, YSL, or Young Slime Life, this racketeering enterprise. Williams attorneys say that this is just a record label, it's not a gang, there's nothing nefarious going on here. Prosecution is trying to prove that Williams was the head of this criminal organization that absolutely terrorized Atlanta. Hey, as a way of saying thank you for following us here on Sidebar, I want to talk to you about something really, really cool, a free app that gets you cashback on daily essentials like gas and groceries. I'm talking upside, the sponsor of this episode. So, for example, when I pump my gas, which could be incredibly boring, there is an upside to it.

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So to find out how much you could earn, click the link in the description to download Upside or scan the QR code on screen and use our promo code sidebar and you'll get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's promo code sidebar for an extra 25 cents back on your first gallon of gas. Copeland had been mentioned many times in prior testimony over the last several months, and he was seen speaking with police in an interrogation tape that leaked online. According to the prosecution back in 2015, several of the YSL defendants were involved in the murder of Donovan Thomas, also known as Big Nut. This is an alleged rival gang member. Shannon Stillwell and Diamante Kendrick, two of Williams co-defendants.

they have been charged in connection with the shooting, and Williams himself is accused of renting a car that was used in the murder as well. Now, Copeland allegedly told police during an interrogation that Williams was involved, but now it seems he's trying to take all of that back. Copeland indicated to prosecutors that he didn't want to testify in this case, but he was given a type of immunity where he can't be charged for anything he admits to on the stand. In other words, what he says can't be used against him. But that also means he's not allowed to plead the fifth. You know, the Fifth Amendment, the right against self-incrimination, because it's already protected. It's already guaranteed under this immunity agreement.

So he can't plead the Fifth. That's not an option for him. But, of course, when he gets on the stand and he pleads the Fifth, he's held in contempt and he's jailed. So this ex parte meeting in Judge Glanville's chambers involved the state telling Copeland that if he didn't testify, he would have to sit in jail for possibly not only this whole trial, but through the trials of all of the co-defendants whose cases were severed from this trial.

That could mean a very, very long time. But as you'll see, that may have been a mistake to tell him that. Anyway, the defense found out about this ex parte meeting. They were not happy. There was a lot of drama in court where Glanville and Williams' attorney, Brian Steele. They argued back and forth. That led to multiple requests for recusal. The trial was paused.

Glanville had originally refused to recuse himself, So the attorneys tried to take this motion up to the Georgia Supreme Court. They declined to consider it, but handed it over to Fulton County Judge Rachel Krause to review. And in her response, Judge Krause wrote, quote, this court has no doubt that Judge Glanville can and would continue presiding fairly over this matter if the recusal motions were denied. But the necessity of preserving the public's confidence in the judicial system weighs in favor of excusing Judge Glanville from further handling of this case. So Glanville was taken off the case. Now a new judge has been assigned, Judge Page Reese Whitaker.

Now, despite the fact that we have a new judge, you know what's still the same? Copeland's antics. Because let's talk about what happened in court last week and what happened in court on Monday. So Copeland appeared last week in front of Judge Whitaker and the defendants and the lawyers as the court tried to parse out what the jury should and shouldn't keep in mind from Copeland's prior testimony. You see, Judge Whitaker ruled that it was in prison. proper to tell Copeland that he could be locked up until the conclusion of all the defendant's trials. So his prior testimony in a way may be tainted. Now, if he's going to testify again,

this changes the whole game. So the judge decided on giving the jury a very special instruction about what Copeland said all those weeks ago. There's this chunk of testimony from a couple of days that y'all need to ignore entirely, disregard entirely, don't give it any consideration. What I proposed to do in addition to instructing them on that is to then do some version of, and Ms. Persefield found a case that was pretty recent where a court had done this when they were having to say, ignore all that evidence, disregard it. They actually kind of said, and if there is anybody who thinks they can't let me know, and I would propose to do that whenever I give this instruction so that if there are jurors who are like, no, man, I just cannot do that. Once I hear

it, I can't unhear it. Then we can know that. We can excuse those jurors. And I mean, I guess if it's eight jurors that say that, then we might have a mistrial. But better to go ahead and figure out from the outset as far as I'm concerned, can you do that instead of just being left with, oh, they're presumed to do it. Now, the judge brought Kenneth Copeland into the courtroom. Again, the jury's not here yet. They were going to come back the following week to see if he was going to cooperate this time around. So let me, Your Honor, I'm telling you to your face, you just said that something about it,

they can lock me up from now. I'm telling you to your face, this is all I do. And you're telling me that they can lock me up if I lie. But if I sit here and testify, so the EWA is going to go and going to get it? do? No, not with regard to anything that you might testify to that might otherwise admit to a crime or admit to your involvement in a crime. That's what the immunity order does. And I'm sure Mr. Melnick has explained this to you, and I know I've explained it previously. But none of that is going to result in you being put in jail because they cannot use that evidence against you. to prove any of those crimes that you might incriminate yourself about. So are you going to testify or not? Do you want to talk to Mr. Melnick again?

No, okay. All right. Okay. He basically said, I'll see how I feel when I wake up Monday morning. That's going to be my decision. to testify. This guy's a character. Let me tell you. After being in limbo for weeks, this same jury that maybe hopefully wasn't reading what was been happening around the scenes or behind the scenes in this case, who knows what they're thinking about what's going on, they are finally brought back in.

This is the jury that's been there the whole time. They're brought back into the courtroom on Monday, and they are introduced to a brand new judge. My name is Judge Page Reese Whitaker. Judge Your Royal Glanville is no longer the judge presiding over this case. I will be the presiding judge in this case moving forward, and you are not to concern yourselves with this change. Let me remind you, as I assume the presiding duties in this case, that none of my decisions and nothing that I say during the trial is evidence, just like none of Judge Glanville's decisions,

and nothing Judge Glanville said during the trial is evidence. The decisions and remarks of a judge do not mean that the judge favors or leans to one side or another in this case. By the way, one of the reasons that Whitaker said that is because she said last week it was inappropriate. Basically, she was calling out Judge Glanville to make comments about the attorneys in front of the jury, like reportedly calling Brian Steele unprepared. The jurors, they also indicated that they could disregard some of Kenneth Copeland's prior

testimony, too. And just like that, we're back in trial. And remember, these jurors haven't heard testimony for months. But here we are, Deputy District Attorney Simone Hilton, back again questioning Kenneth Copeland. And to say he is reluctant to testify would be an understatement. Good morning. Mr. Copeland, do you know a person by the name of Shell, Cal? I don't recall.

Are you saying you don't recall if you know someone by the name of Shell? Sustain. Do you recall speaking with law enforcement by the individual that you know by the name of Shell? Alrica. Pretty similar to what we saw from Copeland the first time around. But he quickly got. frustrated with ADA Hilton and the questioning overall. I made things up.

I told you this before y'all brought me in these courtroom. And I'm telling you now, you ask me about 2015, I have got my life together. Y'all trying to put this on my conscience. Y'all trying to put people life in my hands. I don't lie on people. I don't want to be here. Y'all have pressure me.

I'm tired of you. y'all because y'all know y'all wrong and y'all black people doing this to us and i understand that leave me alone let me leave man y'all piss me down listen i don't recall nothing i said to no police start asking me the question i'm telling you i don't recall i understand but we're going to have to get through the questions you can just continue to say you don't recall if that's what it is that's what you want me to say i want you to answer the question for just a minute I don't think that you were instructing him how to testify. I hope not.

Don't instruct him how to testify other than truthfully. Look, kind of hard to know how credible Copeland is, right? When he's admitting that he hasn't been truthful in the past, according to him, when Atlanta police brought him in for questioning nearly 10 years ago, he was scared that he was going to be arrested for something. So he claims he told the officers whatever they needed to hear, whatever they wanted to hear, which included putting the blame on Williams. Okay, so this will happen. Okay. The police kept locking me up for whatever they could. Every time I can't throw, the police was on me, and they keep bringing up third name.

So what I did was to get them off me, I said, third did this, thud, that, third, because I knew they were never, I knew he didn't do it. And in my mind, I knew that the police would never go mess with him. So it was easy for me to try to throw the blame off on him to get them off of me, and that's what I was doing. from all these years. I don't remember what I don't told them in the past. But my whole motive was, Thud did it because I knew he didn't do it and they couldn't lock him up. And they keep talking about thud, thud, thud, thud, thud.

So guess what I'm gonna tell them? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, what else you want me to tell them? Yeah, he killed this person. Yeah, he did that. That's what I, that's what I'm gonna do. And that's right now. If you tell, if I walk out of these things and they say, they probably stop me now.

Hey, man, give me something about thud. I'm about to make something up about. them again. On January 11, 2015, when you went to speak to the police, when they called you, did they ask you about Thug or did they ask you about the murder of Donovan Thomas? I don't know. I don't remember. Did you go down to the police department on your own to tell them that you did not kill

Donovan Thomas? Did I go on my own? Did you walk into the police department by yourself to tell them on the morning of January 11, 2015, that you did not kill Donovan Thomas? I don't recall. Okay. So you don't recall going to the police or you don't recall why you? I don't recall. None of that. I just know that every time the police was after me trying to get me, they kept bringing his name up. And I knew they had me for what I had. So I was

like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever y'all want me to say, I would say. That's what I told Gator and Dennis. And that's why they kept coming out to me because they felt like, oh, okay, they can make a case out to him or whatever they're trying to do. So they knew that, okay, we're going to get with it today. He's going to have something to say about the, and it's wrong. And y'all is wrong because y'all know that I'm full of s'clock. And y'all keep trying to drag me in here to bring up bullshit

that y'all know I don't say it. Why is y'all doing that? Leave me alone. If y'all going to try me for what I did, I don't did the time for the crimes y'all caught me, folks. I have to say, if you're just listening to this episode on our podcast and not watching it on YouTube, I'm sorry. but you were really missing out on some visuals here.

Copeland visibly irritated. His facial expressions are so expressive, by the way. Such a unique witness. Anyway, Copeland at times called out the detectives too who questioned him about Williams, even saying this. Detective Thorpe, his brain was the size of a squirrel brain. So you can just tell him anything.

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mention law and crime. There's always a risk of investment and no guarantee of any kind. So at this point, prosecutor Hilton asked to treat Copeland as a hostile witness and the judge allowed it. That means Hilton can change up

her style of questioning almost seems like a cross-examination of Copeland even though he is their witness. He's a witness for the state. Courts allow this when a witness is being openly obstinate or might be lying. What's your new version? What's your truth today?

Did I lie? and that you lied about everything back in 2015? My truth today is I lie and put the blame on others for a lot of activities. I ain't telling on myself, I don't got anything else to say. I don't recall. Now, you keep saying that you told Detective Thorpe, whatever it is that you wanted to say. That you were finessing him. Correct.

Do you recall telling Detective Thorpe, I'm not trying to go to jail? I'm not trying to do any of that. I don't want none of this. Me and nothing, never had a problem. And I still ain't trying to go to jail. Okay. So why would you be lying to Detective Thorpe if you did not want to go to jail?

Can you say that? Why would I be lying to him if I didn't want to go to jail? Correct. What you mean? You keep saying that you were just lying, lying, lying. Why would you lie versus just telling him the truth? That's how I was raised.

I was raised up to lie to the police. At the early age, I was taught to lie to the police. But if you're trying not to go to jail, why would you lie to the police versus telling them the truth? You're trying to treat me? I'm asking you a question. I'm not going to confess. Confessed to what? Nothing.

Did you kill Donovan Thomas? You shaking your head? Is that a no? No. Okay. Is that what you went down there to tell Detective Thorpe back on January 11, 2015? What? Is that what you went down there to tell Detective Thorpe that you did not kill Donovan Thomas?

I don't understand. I don't know if this is a trick question. When you went down there, did you go down there to tell Detective Thorpe where you were the entire day and that you did not kill Donovan Thomas? Meldon, can I answer that? Yeah, you need to answer them. I don't know how to answer it. Do you need to talk to Mr. Melvin? No, I don't know if this is a trick question that she asked me. Now, to be clear, Copeland is now insisting that he didn't know who killed Thomas, but he would say anything to anyone.

And he says he wasn't snitching. In January of 2015, when you were, when police were calling you about, Donovan Thomas' murder. After he was killed, I wasn't around that much for him to be able to see me answer the phone or talk to any police or anything. What are you talking about? Do you, did you tell the police

when they were asking you about the thing you were snitching, you told the police because like every time he called, it's like I was right there in front of him and I had walked up. I was like, that was the detective. Like, shit, they're trying to find out who.

And he just felt like I was just making, making stuff up because I always stutter. So when you snitching, snitching is based off the truth and out facts. Lying and trying to finish your way is a different thing. So there was never the case with, there would never be the case if he concerned about me snitching of. So you're only snitching if you're telling the person. And back in 2015, when they were calling you and they were asking you about Nuts murder,

were you telling them that you were not involved in Nuts murder? I was telling them everybody, I told them everybody did. I told them Shale killed him. I told them all type of people did. I didn't know. I don't know. Having said that, at one point, Copeland did seemingly admit to a shooting involving another Atlanta rapper known as Rich Homi Kwan.

The rapper's father was injured when shots were fired into an Atlanta barbershop he owned. And Copeland says he had been trying to protect a friend who he calls threat from being questioned in connection with that shooting. Threat is now deceased, by the way. And before he said what happened, he confirmed with his attorney, I have immunity, right? Do you recall telling the investigators that at the Cascade Skate and Ring, you confronted Kel about them shooting at you off from the bushes. What happened in the nut got nothing to do with why I sell?

This is a scurrying language. It's got everything to do with threat. I mean, I was trying to protect threat from the get-go. Now I mean, threat, threat, and they has most of it going on. Was threat at the gambling house when it got shot up by Kel? You know, you said nothing I say can be used against me? That's right. Me and Threat shot up Rich Hormacorn Daddy Barbershop on Bankhead.

I don't know what happened with Threat and Rich Hormacorn, but I'm a ride with my brother. And they was beefing. And, yeah, we pulled up and did that. Okay. And as a result of why did you and Threat shoot a Rich Horme Quine Daddy's Barbershop? Because I'm going to ride with Threat. Okay.

Did threat tell you why he was shooting? I don't ask no question. I just say, let go. And when Rich Homiqon's barbershop was shot up, was that in September of 2014? Do you remember? I don't know when. I know we went up there and shot it up. Okay.

Was it before Nut was killed? Yes. Do you remember what happened the day that you in Threat shot up? Rich Homie Kwan's daddy's barbershop? What you mean? Do you remember that day? What led up to you going to the barbershop and shooting it up? I told him they go do it.

What led up to you saying, let's go do it? Why? Threat were mad. He was like, he fucking scared my language. He was talking, didn't he plan like we somebody to play with. And I was ready. ready. I had them chappas on that. Now, did this shooting of Rich

Homey Quine's daddy's barbershop start the beef between If Gang and YS. The beef was never between If Gang and YSEL. The beef was between me

threat and Sherylkill Rich on McCorn because they were trying to share of care were trying to ride rich on McCorn the streets through

wide selling to what men threat had going on well that takes me back to the shooting at Lakewood right can you repeat that? You just said that the streets brought YSL into what you and threat had going on. Correct?

That's what you just said? Mm-hmm. Is that a yes for the record? Yes, yes, my bad. So according to Copeland, there wasn't any sort of problem between him and Yassel. That was just a rumor that had been going around. And he once again seemingly look for reassurance that what he said on the stand cannot be used to come back to bite him. Remember, what he says can't be used to help.

prosecute him. He also tried very hard to watch his language. Nothing I say could be used in no courtroom? That is correct. Federal or state? Is that the parameters of the immunity or? Nothing can be used? Correct. And what your question was? When you and Shell Cal met at the Cascade skating ring, did the two of you shake hands? and said that the beef was over when y'all met at the Cascade Skating Ring. I pulled a gun out on him. At the Cascade Skating Ring?

At the Cascade Skating. Okay. Well, who did you pull it out on? Sharecare. And once you pulled the gun out on Shell, what happened? I had somebody with me that I didn't want to get caught up in my b-a-my shenanigans. Who was with you? I can't recall.

Well, if somebody you just... I can't remember who it was with me. Okay. So how do you know you didn't want them caught up in your shenanigans? Because I went through to put nobody else in my... I just weren't going to do that. Okay. So after you pulled the gun out on him,

did you shake hands with him to say that the beef was over between the two of you? Nope. I pulled the gun out of them know. I could have got you right now. Okay. And you didn't shoot him? No, I did. All right.

Copeland is allegedly connected to some arguably shady dealings around Atlanta. You know what's not in doubt his popularity on social media. That has skyrocketed since he first took the stand a couple of months ago. He actually went live on Instagram before he was called in the courtroom on Monday, just sitting there drinking from a water bottle. He also posted selfies in his gray three-piece suit. And there was a post as well featuring Christina Weaver. This is the court reporter when Judge Glanville was presiding over the trial. You may remember that they had a funny moment during his testimony in June. It never crossed my mind.

So how were you able to tell Detective Gather that Nutt and Thug was cool? Because they're questioning me and I'm trying to get them off of me and she asked me questions about Nutt and Thug, I guess, and I'm telling her whatever she, she asked me, let's say she asked me a question about this guy. I'm going to say, yeah, I seen this guy. It's blue. Whatever she asked me, I'm going to say, I'm going to agree to that. I'm going to say whatever she asked me.

She asked me about this reporter right here. I'm going to say, yep, she's sitting outside me with white tennis shoes on. I'm going to say something. Jay, because I want her to believe I'm telling the truth that I want her to get me out of jail. What, she has on white tennis shoes, don't she? Don't you got on white tennis shoes? She got on chucks. Right, and they're white.

Right? What color your shoe is? Okay. She on chokes. So you tell them the truth. What color of your shoes here? She said they're white. Right.

So you're telling the truth then? Well, it depends. See, you pick what you want to tell them? Such an interesting guy. Now, Copeland, he's going to come back on the stand. He's going to continue to be grilled by the prosecution. And we will plan on bringing you the very best moments right here on Sidebar.

Thank you so much for joining us, everybody. That's all we have for you right now. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.