Law&Crime Sidebar - 16 Women Accuse Magician David Copperfield of Grooming, Sexual Assault

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

The world’s most famous magician is facing backlash after The Guardian newspaper published accounts from multiple women who accuse him of misconduct. The reporting alleges David Copperfield, 67, touched women and girls inappropriately during his shows. Some of the alleged victims also claim Copperfield drugged and sexually assaulted them. Law&Crime’s Jesse Weber sits down with former sex crimes prosecutor Sarena Townsend to discuss the accusations and Copperfield’s response.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/LCSidebarHOST:Jesse Weber: https://twitter.com/jessecordweberLAW&CRIME SIDEBAR PRODUCTION:YouTube Management - Bobby SzokeVideo Editing - Michael DeiningerScript Writing & Producing - Savannah WilliamsonGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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keep you on the edge of your seat. Don't let your fears take hold of you as you dive into this addictive series. Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. He's been called the greatest illusionist of our time. But will David Copperfield be able to escape from the latest allegations against him? We're taking a closer look at new accusations of sexual misconduct against the world famous magician with former sex crimes prosecutor Serena Townsend. Welcome to Sidebar, presented by Law and Crime. I'm Jesse Weber.

David Copperfield is the latest celebrity to face a slew of sexual misconduct allegations. The U.S. Division of the UK-based Guardian newspaper says, 16 women have come forward to them with accusations against the 67-year-old. Some of these claims are from... incidents they allege happened decades ago. Now, more than half of those women claim that they were under the age of 18 when these things happened. Some of the women have told their stories before. Others are making claims for the first time. Right now, there doesn't seem to be any legal action against David Copperfield in connection with these accusations. And that's what they

are right now, accusations, allegations. But that is, of course, always a possibility. It's something I want to explore right now with former sex crimes prosecutor Serena Towns. And Serena, good to see you. Thank you. Shocking to see this. I mean, I think for me, the last time I thought about David Copperfield was, we'll get to a minute. He was mentioned briefly in the Epstein docks, but 2018, he had this lawsuit filed against

him for one of his shows. Somebody had got injured. He was actually found negligent, but not financially responsible. I haven't thought about David Copperfield a while. We see this headline from The Guardian. What's your impression? My impression is when you have 16 people come from. forward who don't know each other and tell stories of sexual abuse or even rape in some of the

cases. There is some credibility right out the gate to those stories. It feels that way at least because these women don't know each other. And like you said, nobody has thought of David Copperfield that much recently. So it doesn't feel like, you know, these women are coming forward because they sense that they can make a dollar or two out of him. It feels like the timing is such that, you know, maybe something did happen. And now that these women are older, they're looking back in hindsight and saying, something was wrong here and I want to come out with my story. And sometimes we see that. We see papers do exposés on people. Same thing happened with Harvey Weinstein with the New York Times. Sometimes comes out of nowhere. So here are some of the

allegations that these women are making, which span from the late 1980s to 2014. At least three women say they believe they were drugged by the magician, then they were sexually assaulted by him. Guardian reports had also heard stories about Copperfield groping women or making them touch him suggestively during live stage performances in front of an audience. One of the women who had come forward previously was Brittany Lewis in 2018. She spoke with the entertainment outlet, The Rap. The site also interviewed her family and friends who say that she told them decades ago about an alleged assault by David Copperfield. In 1988, Lewis was a 17-year-old model competing in the look of the year contest in Japan, Copperfield was apparently one of the judges.

And when she returned back to the United States, she says David Copperfield invited her to one of his shows in California. Her grandmother agreed to let her go. She says that she was treated to a VIP experience. She told the rap that she was with Copperfield at the hotel bar when she saw him allegedly putting something in her drink and she later blacked out. She says that she has these hazy memories of Copperfield taking off her clothes, being on top of her. He sent her home to Utah the following day telling her nothing had happened because she was a minor, but also insisting that she wrote a letter saying she was all right. Lewis told the outlet that she doesn't plan to pursue any civil or criminal action against

Copperfield, but felt embolded to speak out thanks to the Me Too movement. So the big question I have for you, Serena, and that's kind of a sampling of it, do you expect any kind of legal consequences, either criminal or civil for David Copperfield after the release of this expose by the Guardian? you know, it would require the cooperation of each of the women in order for a civil or criminal lawsuit to be pursued. So if they are telling, you know, a tell-all to a magazine or a newspaper, but they're not pursuing charges, then it's going to be quite unlikely that we're going to see anything come of it. But at the same token, you know, if they are looking for justice or, you know,

if they're looking for some sort of, you know, either compensation or some sort of jail time, for David Copperfield, they're going to have to pursue it in the courts. And at that point, they are going to have to face cross-examination and examination of their credibility. A lot of this will also be based purely on their testimony and not on physical evidence or digital evidence, right? So that would really all come down to them a lot of times. That's right. And it's very difficult. I mean, there are people who don't say what happened to them for a long time because of shame, embarrassment, fear of retaliation, or fear that they're not going to be believed. We see this all of the time, which is called a delayed outcry. It doesn't

necessarily mean that they're not credible, but at the same time, it does sometimes make it that much harder for, let's say, a prosecutor to move forward with a criminal case because the evidence, if it had existed back then, is no longer there. It's just usually the testimony of this woman or these women. But from a criminal point of view or a civil point of view, isn't there an issue of statute of limitations? These claims are too old? You know, it is very interesting. It would go state by state. The statute of limitations could have run in several of these cases. But for example, in New York, there's been a recent reopening of that window called the Adult Survivors Act, where people can, you know, sue their perpetrators even when the statute of limitations had

actually expired. There was a look back and a reopening of the opportunity to do that. So these women will have to determine, or their lawyers will have to determine state by state, whether that look back exists or whether for some reason the statute was told. And there are possible loopholes there for these women to move forward with cases. As we talk about the potential legal ramifications of this case with David Copperfield, let me highlight one of our great partners and sponsors here on Sidebar. Morgan and Morgan. This is a firm that are specialists in the litigation arena. In fact, Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. And for a reason, they win a lot. They have secured multi-million dollar verdicts and settlements. In fact,

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To start your claim, visit for the people.com slash LC sidebar or by dialing pound law. That's pound 529 on your phone. Now, in a statement to the wrap, Copperfield's representative said in part, quote, most of these historic accusations have been made before and all of them are as false now as they were then. Daven requested the evidence upon which these false allegations claim to rely, and this has not been provided. By contrast, whenever U.S. law enforcement has looked into such matters, they have been investigated thoroughly, and it has been found that there is simply no case to answer. The Guardian's characterization is not who David is, and he continues to support anyone

who has experienced any form of abuse or discrimination. And the rep added, David will be considering the position with his legal team and will take such steps as may be appropriate over these false and scurrilous allegations. Does that mean a lawsuit? Does that mean a defamation lawsuit? Right. And so if these women are going to come forward only with a newspaper article or with, you know, without moving forward into a courtroom where their credibility can be tested by cross-examination or either, you know, evidence or a lack thereof, then it's, you know, the person who's being accused doesn't have the ability to confront their accuser in that way. They don't have the ability necessarily to say in public, you know, here's my, here's my evidence or here's the cross-examination where we are able to discredit these allegations and therefore they could claim if this has any financial effect on his reputation or on his business that these statements are libelous slanderous and he might be able to file a defamation lawsuit keep in mind though

with defamation truth is a defense so he's going to have to wait very carefully um into that legal field and be ready for that potential confrontation of the truth or untruths. But that means he would also go after the Guardian, right? And if he does, I have to imagine the Guardian must have gone through a number of different protocols before they write an article like this against, you know, such a high-powered, high-profile individual. Sure. There are a lot of rules that, you know, newspapers and magazines have to follow before writing their stories. Not only do they have to cover, you know, themselves by looking at whatever evidence they can get a hold of, but they also have to couch their language as a form of, you know,

this is an allegation. They can't say that this actually happened. And I do think that the Guardian and other news outlets have done that. They've been able to say, you know, while these women are saying X, Y, and Z, don't forget, these are just allegations. And they have also posted his side of the story, his statement through his attorneys. So they have probably been able to cover themselves. Look, these are really harrowing allegations. And we're talking about another high profile, very powerful, wealthy individual. I mean, David Copperfield has been a staple in the magic game for as long as I remember. He made the Statue of Liberty disappear in New York. What, back in 1983? He's won, I think, 21 Emmy Awards holds 11 Guinness World Records. He's a star on

the Hollywood Walk of Fame. I think he was knighted by the French government. I think he's listed, by the way, as a living legend by the U.S. Library of Congress. He's been in Vegas for decades. I've seen his show so many times. And whenever we talk about allegations against somebody of his stature, there isn't always a thought, you know, they're going for the money grab, they're going after him because he's rich and famous. How is that complicated here in terms of David Copperfield? Absolutely. Any good prosecutor or any litigator knows that when you go up against a celebrity, you cannot ignore their celebrity status. You can make that argument in both directions, by the way. You can make the argument that because he's a celebrity,

you know, this is why these women are saying it. They are looking for money. They're looking for some sort of fame. It never really happened. On the other hand, you can say, because he was a celebrity, you know, perhaps he did take advantage of his stature. And he knew that nobody was going to go up against him because he was too valuable. his status as a magician, by the way, I mean, one could argue if he was able to make the Statue of Liberty disappear, what other kind of illusions was he able to do in order to trick these women or to trick his audience? It all is so important to take into consideration, even if he were, let's say, to take the stand in a criminal case or a civil case, how does that affect a jury? Does a jury look at

him as a showman and therefore they don't believe him, or do they look at him in awe because he's able, you know, to convince them. He is an illusionist. So his celebrity status has to play a role in every single step of this evaluation. And by the way, the complaints that he sexually assaulted women on stage during live performances, multiple people around in the audience, what do you make of those claims? Listen, you know, one might say that if everybody saw it happen, how could he would would never have done it. Why would he have ever done something? Everybody would witness. However,

he makes his living with slight of hand movements, with illusions. And so it is quite possible that some of the things that he did, he did, you know, while on stage, but secretly, you know, there was an allegation, I think, that he had put his hand, you know, in an area of, of a woman where it may not have been seen by the audience. And if he is so talented to be able to do tricks and fool in his audience with respect to his illusions, who is to say that he could not have done it, you know, on stage? And sometimes that gives people a power trip, right? He's able to say, I was able to do this and I fooled everybody. Maybe it's his greatest trick of all. So those kinds of claims, you have to test it. You have to be able to, you know, ask the right questions of both the person who's making the allegation and tested against any other possible evidence. maybe other witnesses and maybe him himself. You know, he's claimed that there's been complaints against him before. He's claimed before that he's been falsely accused of sexual misconduct.

In 2007, there was this former beauty queen, Lacey Carroll. She accused Copperfield of assaulting her on his private island, I believe in the Bahamas. FBI ended up investigating, raided his warehouse in Las Vegas. The case was closed. There wasn't any further explanation. She filed a lawsuit against Copperfield, dropped it. Copperfield's legal team said there was no settlement. She was later arrested, by the way, charged.

I think it was in Washington State with various different offenses. And in an interview with Oprah Winfrey after this investigation closed, Copperfield told her that he was the victim in all this. In 2018, when the rap ran the story about Carol, Copperfield said in a statement, I've lived with years of news reports about me being accused of fabricated, heinous acts with few telling the story of the accuser getting arrested in my innocence. knowing that false accusers can negatively impact the believability of others

and are a true disservice to those who have been victims of sexual misconduct. I didn't draw attention to it. How does that complicate everything? It certainly does. Listen, it's not that people have never made false allegations in a sex crimes case before. It can happen. I don't know enough to know whether this was or was not a false allegation. But that being said, you know, just because,

one person may have made a false allegation doesn't mean that the other 16 haven't. I'll tell you, well, Lewis, the woman I mentioned before, when she saw the reports about Carol's accusations, I believe, and allegedly she went to the FBI, too, to back up this woman's claims, says she had an interview with agents, but nothing really came of it. Interesting. You know, there's also the idea that even if something happened, if there's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the FBI or the police may not be able to. to move forward with a case. And that is the sad truth, by the way, in many cases, where something happens to somebody. And unfortunately, by the time they speak out about it, there may not be

enough evidence to corroborate what had happened. Especially with the FBI, it's different from state cases. With a state case, I sometimes feel that police and prosecutors are a little bit more willing to move forward with the case, whereas the FBI, when you go federal, a lot of times they really want a slam dunk case. They don't want to lose. They want to make sure that they have a ton of evidence before they move forward. And so it is possible that the FBI felt they didn't have enough, but there might be enough for a civil case because that burden of proof is lower

than beyond a reasonable doubt. And so we have to always be careful to make claims that something is false, just because something is not able to move forward in a criminal place, because you need so much proof, like I said, beyond a reasonable doubt, it doesn't necessarily mean that it did not happen. It could just mean there isn't enough evidence to move forward in that arena. I want to end this conversation with Jeffrey Epstein because you might remember that David Copperfield was mentioned in these court documents as having connections to Jeffrey Epstein, not that he's one of the purported people part of his sex crime ring, nothing like that.

But in documents that were released earlier this year in connection with the defamation lawsuit against Epstein's former Madam Galeen Maxwell, one of Epstein's accusers said that Copperfield had visited Epstein in the past and testified that she met Copperfield at a dinner at one of Epstein's homes. And she says that Copperfield performed some magic tricks before asking if this woman was aware that, quote, girls were getting paid to find other girls. And she says he didn't really go into any further detail, including whether the girls were underage. But again, what do you make of that comment, that connection in light of what we're hearing now? You know, a lot of times we like to judge people by the company that they keep. And in society, we do that all of the time. And it's like if you don't want to be judged the way that your friend is being judged, maybe you shouldn't be their friend. Then again, I don't really know if maybe he was just hired to perform there.

rather than actually, you know, have this strong relationship. We don't really know those details. And then, of course, in the courtroom, we always want to make sure that we're not convicting people based on extraneous things, propensity evidence, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire. That's really not allowed in a courtroom. And so, you know, if these claims were to move forward criminally or civilly, they would have to be tested for its, on its own.

You know, they would have to be tested on its own evidence with its own. you know, people and, you know, as much as we would like to potentially say in society, we do this, we make assumptions about people, and we judge them based on their company. In a courtroom, it really does have to be solely evidence-based, and that's what the jury would have to be told. And I believe Copperfield's lawyers have said that he was not aware of anything Jeffrey Epstein was involved in, no crimes, only learned about them when the media and the press came forward.

But one of the lawyers for an alleged Epstein victim, Brad Edwards, said in a tell-all book, this is our understanding that he had served Copperfield with a subpoena but was unable to deposed him due to a number of legal and logistical roadblocks. And, you know, of course, even if he was able to spin, it doesn't mean he would be able to provide, you know, bombshell information about Jeffrey Epstein. But it's just something to think about and what a development, to say the least. I'm sure this is not the last we've heard of David Copperfield's name in the news right now. Serena Townsend, good seeing you.

Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. And that is all we have for you right now here on Sidebar. Everybody, thank you so much for joining us. As always, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jesse Weber. I'll speak to you next time. Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.